Meta:Requests for deletion: Difference between revisions

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== Pages ==
== Pages ==
''Submit your page deletion request at the bottom of '''this''' section.''
''Submit your page deletion request at the bottom of '''this''' section.''
=== [[Special:PrefixIndex/Translations:Access_to_nonpublic_personal_data_policy-summary]] ===

The page "Access to nonpublic personal data policy-summary/" has moved to the Foundation website, and we have all these unattached translations that people still are editing, which is valueless. Probably time for a cleanout, unless someone can think of a reason not to do so. &nbsp;— [[user:billinghurst|billinghurst]] ''<span style="font-size:smaller">[[user talk:billinghurst|sDrewth]]</span>'' 04:22, 23 January 2024 (UTC)
{{collapse top|See list}}
{{Special:PrefixIndex/Translations:Access_to_nonpublic_personal_data_policy-summary/}}
{{collapse bottom}}
* '''Delete all''' [[User:Pppery|* Pppery *]] [[User talk:Pppery|<sub style="color:#800000">it has begun</sub>]] 04:39, 23 January 2024 (UTC)
* +1, '''delete''' these useless pages --[[User:TenWhile6|TenWhile6]] <small>([[User_Talk:TenWhile6|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[SWMT]])</small> 06:14, 23 January 2024 (UTC)
* '''Delete''', I think that we should have a speedy criteria for stuff that has been moved to the Foundation site. Deleting the translation pages, only leaving the /en page as a soft redirect. --[[User:Minorax|<span style="font-family: monospace, monospace; color:#69C">Minorax</span>]]<sup>&laquo;&brvbar;[[User talk:Minorax|'''talk''']]&brvbar;&raquo;</sup> 13:07, 27 January 2024 (UTC)
* Deleted the unused units. The page display titles are still used, though they can be deleted too if @[[User:Minorax|Minorax]]'s suggestion is implemented. (FTR, right now translation of the page is marked as "discouraged".) <span style="display:inline-block;text-align:center;vertical-align:bottom;line-height:0.5em;">~~<nowiki/>~~<br/><span style="font-size:0.7em;">[[User:1234qwer1234qwer4]] ([[User talk:1234qwer1234qwer4|talk]])</span></span> 00:19, 11 February 2024 (UTC)
* '''Delete''' the unused units per 1234qwer1234qwer4. [[User:Hide on Rosé|<span style="background-image:linear-gradient(90deg,black,purple,red);color:transparent;background-clip:text;-webkit-background-clip:text;font-family:Sans-Serif;font-size:110%">Hide on Rosé</span>]]&nbsp;<sup>[[User talk:Hide on Rosé#top|<span style="font-family:Sans-Serif;color:red;font-size:120%">t</span>]]</sup> 04:46, 13 February 2024 (UTC)
* Hold on. I think there is a defect here, aren't the foundation wiki imports of the translation units defective, in that they have not maintained authorship attribution? — [[User:Xaosflux|<span style="color:#FF9933; font-weight:bold; font-family:monotype;">xaosflux</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:Xaosflux|<span style="color:#009933;">Talk</span>]]</sup> 12:04, 24 February 2024 (UTC)
*:[[phab:T347156]] seems to still be unresolved, so these improper transwiki's haven't been resolved. — [[User:Xaosflux|<span style="color:#FF9933; font-weight:bold; font-family:monotype;">xaosflux</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:Xaosflux|<span style="color:#009933;">Talk</span>]]</sup> 12:18, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' per 1234qwer1234qwer4. --<span style="font-family:BlinkMacSystemFont">[[User:SHB2000|SHB2000]] <small>([[User talk:SHB2000#top|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/SHB2000|contribs]])</small></span> 02:10, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

=== [[Joint Statement on Palestine]] ===
{{archive top|Closed as no consensus to delete, full description below. – [[User:Ajraddatz|Ajraddatz]] ([[User Talk:Ajraddatz|talk]]) 19:17, 29 April 2024 (UTC)}}
<small>Discussion open until at least 18 April 2024 (UTC)</small><br>
Beyond the fact that it is not the place of Wikimedians to take sides in armed conflicts, this open letter identifies with the Palestinian cause regarding matters within Israel. This partisanship is devisive slacktivism and should not be present within Wikimedia's servers. <span class="nowrap" style="font-family:copperplate gothic light;">[[User:Chris troutman|<span style="color:#345">Chris Troutman</span>]] ([[User talk:Chris troutman|<span style="color:#345">talk</span>]])</span> 18:02, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
:{{vk}} There have been several open letters written by members of the Wikimedia Movement, pertaining to the Movement, hosted on Meta in the past. This statement does talk about specific actions that members of our Movement would like to see from the Foundation and is not trying to request or mandate things of organisations outside the Movement (for example, it is not asking any actions of any government or NGO). If the Foundation feels this matter is {{lang|la|ultra vires}} for Meta, then they can take [[Office actions]] to remove the page and they can contact the editors there to discuss it further. I don't think this is a matter that needs to be addressed by the community on RfD — [[User:OwenBlacker|OwenBlacker]] ([[User talk:OwenBlacker|Talk]]; he/him) 18:13, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
:{{vk}} It's important to have space for open letters from members within the Wikimedia Movement. --[[User:Kiraface|Kiraface]] ([[User talk:Kiraface|talk]]) 18:21, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

:{{vk}} Deleting such a document goes against the democratic spirit of the Wikimedia community. Free knowledge is an agenda in the fight for democracy and it is even expected that organizations and movements with a social impact like ours take a stand on global issues like these. [[User:XenoF|XenoF]] ([[User talk:XenoF|talk]]) 19:47, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

:{{vk}} A request for deletion of a statement of this kind shouldn't take place in a democratic movement. If you disagree you can discuss the topic, but to just plainly ask that these words do not exist on our servers is against the spirit and values of this movement.[[User:Señoritaleona|Señoritaleona]] ([[User talk:Señoritaleona|talk]]) 20:14, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

:{{vk}} This open letter not only makes demands of our community and the Foundation, it serves as an opportunity for Wikimedians with shared values to connect and further strategize; it's unifying rather than divisive and is more aligned with the positive connotations of "slacktivism" than it is with the negative ones. [[User:Nyeboah|Nyeboah]] ([[User talk:Nyeboah|talk]]) 21:21, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

:{{vk}} the Wikimedia Foundation and Wikipedia in general has taken a position on the Russo-Ukrainian war in favor of Ukraine countless times. So, Wikimedians can take sides in armed conflicts. [[User:D.S. Lioness|D.S. Lioness]] ([[User talk:D.S. Lioness|talk]]) 01:13, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

:{{vk}} Wikimedia has always shown direct support for Ukraine and Israel and recently had issues regarding how to brand what Israel was doing to palestinian people on enwiki and commons which actually disgusted me (refusal to call the Al-Rashid massacre just that but instead pushing for it to be called an "incident" was downright insulting to over 118+ lives lost that day). We are no longer a neutral site cause even today i saw people from Israel wiki (hebrew wiki) push their propaganda on commons and enwiki, if we can no longer be neutral, atleast we should act like we are.--<span style="color:blue;font-weight:bold;font-size:medium;font-family: Monotype Corsiva;">[[User:Stemoc|Ste]][[User talk:Stemoc|moc]]</span> 03:44, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
: '''Definitely''' {{vk}}. It is what Wikipedia is for after all, an open source of unbiased information. -[[User:Filipinayzd|Filipinayzd]] ([[User talk:Filipinayzd|talk]]) 10:32, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

: {{vk}} one has the right not to agree with this statement (and personally, I don't fully agree with some of its sentences) but I see no reason to delete this statement. Cheers, [[User:VIGNERON|V<span style="font-size:75%">IGNERON</span>]] * [[User talk:VIGNERON|<sup>discut.</sup>]] 16:16, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
:{{remove}} While I agree with the content, Wikipedia should not engage in political advocacy, it undermines Wikipedia's neutrality. [[User:Levivich|Levivich]] ([[User talk:Levivich|talk]]) 16:58, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
::Again, this is not Wikipedia. [[User:Luisalvaz|Luisalvaz]] ([[User talk:Luisalvaz|talk]]) 18:14, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

:{{remove}} I don't want Wikimedia to become another forum or social network. Wikimedia should not become a a battleground or a forum to promote our own political or religious ideas, or any kind of advocacy or propaganda of any kind that does not strictly relate to our objectives. I sympathize with many causes, but I don't express my ideas on Wikimedia pages; rather, I use social media or spaces for social or political activism that are meant for that purpose. The goal of Wikimedia is to advocate for free knowledge, to collect and develop educational content under free licenses or public domain, and to effectively disseminate it globally, not to express our opinions on any conflict. We should only express opinions when our projects are at stake, for example, when Wikipedia is censored in some regions.--[[User:Jaluj|Jalu]] ([[User talk:Jaluj|talk]]) 17:20, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

:{{remove}} Since when has Wikipedia politalized? [[User:Lilijuros|Lilijuros]] ([[User talk:Lilijuros|talk]]) 18:27, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
:'''comment''' I am not at liberty to vote on this RFD, but I have updated my candidate page [[Universal Code of Conduct/Coordinating Committee/Election/2024/Candidates/Sleyece|here]] -- [[User:Sleyece|Sleyece]] ([[User talk:Sleyece|talk]]) 18:36, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

:{{remove}} This statement completely violates Wikimedia Foundation charter and NPOV policy. Moreover, it is one-sided, completely ignoring Hamas' massacre of October 7th 2023 and the kidnapping of innocent people to Gaza, and depicts a distorted version of reality. [[User:MathKnight|MathKnight]] ([[User talk:MathKnight|talk]]) 18:41, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
::History does not begin on October 7th. If you have read your ''Torah'', you should know that God has created the world and human civilization a long, long time ago. [[User:Interaccoonale|Interaccoonale]] ([[User talk:Interaccoonale|talk]]) 16:22, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
:'''Speedy delete'''. Whatever the precedents elsewhere, Wikipedia should not be pulled left or right, pro or contra. I find this kind of thing - an attempt to identify an encyclopedia with a political statement - deeply disturbing, indeed somewhat shocking. And I state that even more firmly as an editor closely associated with working in the I/P area, basically curating Palestinian perspectives. Our remit here is to master the history and scholarship, and ensure that articles are written NPOV to that end. Political statements are facile: actually doing something to achieve informative coverage on a conflict is hard work. That is where editors must commit themselves, not to flagwaving. Horrible. I'm not neutral, but wikipedia is not about righting great wrongs (as opposed to giving detailed information about the history enabling readers to form their own opinions regarding the merits or otherwise of those perceived wrongs and the preceived 'justice' of those who claim that they are not wrongs, for example)(User:Nishidani) {{Unsigned|Nishidani|19:05, 11 April 2024|26588976}}
: {{vk}} Please re-read the quote contained in the statement: "If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor". When 30,000+ innocent people are killed, neutrality becomes complicity. Silence becomes harm. Speaking up becomes a duty. This statement will not be censored. [[User:Mushroom|Mushroom]] ([[User talk:Mushroom|talk]]) 19:04, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
:{{remove}}, per Kim Bruning arguments; arguments 1,4,6 would hold even if the statement authors had try just to express concern on human life loss while staying objective and not bringing specific agenda - which they clearly didn't, thus enabling also arguments 2,3,5 [[User:Шуфель|Шуфель]] ([[User talk:Шуфель|talk]]) 23:51, 20 April 2024 (UTC)
{{collapse top|Off-topic discussion. – [[User:Ajraddatz|Ajraddatz]] ([[User Talk:Ajraddatz|talk]]) 21:18, 18 April 2024 (UTC)}}
:: About one-third to half of those 30,000 Palestinians killed were members of Hamas, Palestinian Islamic Jihad and other militia/terror-groups and NOT innocent civilians. This is why the statement is factually false and distorted. [[User:MathKnight|MathKnight]] ([[User talk:MathKnight|talk]]) 19:41, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
:::If you want to believe that it's moral and justified to indiscriminately bomb and murder innocent civilians because (supposedly) some bad people are hiding among them, feel free to do so. I am equally free to express my disagreement. [[User:Mushroom|Mushroom]] ([[User talk:Mushroom|talk]]) 20:45, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
:::: You can't preach about morality when you deny and refuse to condemn Hamas atrocities. On October 7th Hamas massacred 1000 innocent people, raped women, burned babies in front of their mothers, and kidnapped civilians into the Gaza Strip. This one-sided statement fails to condemn it and implicitly supports Hamas ' atrocities. This one-sided distorted and factually false statement should be speedily deleted. Wikimedia Foundation should not endorse hatred. [[User:MathKnight|MathKnight]] ([[User talk:MathKnight|talk]]) 15:20, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
:::::It does not, in '''any way''', endorse Hamas. But I guess everyone in Gaza’s a terrorist in Israel’s eyes. [[User:Dronebogus|Dronebogus]] ([[User talk:Dronebogus|talk]]) 11:11, 13 April 2024 (UTC)
::: Even if we believe this ‘math’ from MathKnight, that still means that a qualified majority (more than two thirds) of the deaths were civilians. I don’t see how the presence of an alleged ‘one third’ justifies the mass killings of the two thirds. [[user:stjn|stjn]]<sup>[[:ru:user:stjn|[ru]]]</sup> 13:37, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
: If Wikipedia existed during WWII, would it have stayed silent when the Holocaust was being perpetrated?! Being an encyclopedia does not mean staying neutral when atrocities are being committed. {{vk}}! [[User:عمرو بن كلثوم|عمرو بن كلثوم]] ([[User talk:عمرو بن كلثوم|talk]]) 19:23, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
:: If Wikipedia existed during WWII, this statement is the equivalent of denouncing The Allies for bombing Germany while refusing to denounce Nazi Germany. [[User:MathKnight|MathKnight]] ([[User talk:MathKnight|talk]]) 15:20, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
:::No, it’d be like saying “we condemn the US government’s violent policies against Indians” in the 19th century, and then US settlers said “but why don’t you condemn the massacres of Americans by the Indians?” The answer is of course that Native Americans did commit what would be considered war crimes by modern standards, but in retrospective analysis has since put that in a framework of complete genocide by the United States. [[User:Dronebogus|Dronebogus]] ([[User talk:Dronebogus|talk]]) 11:06, 13 April 2024 (UTC)
{{collapse bottom}}
:{{vk}} there is no neutrality when it comes to human values. I don't think this will be brought up against the situation in Ukraine, or older conflicts in Europe. Besides this doesn't apply to what is considered [[Meta:Inclusion policy#Not acceptable|Not acceptable]]--[[User:باسم|باسم]] ([[User talk:باسم|talk]]) 19:20, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
:{{vk}} I don't know how the page violates wikimedia policies. I trust no one can prove that. I've said before in a discussion: "the solidarity with human rights in safe life and other rights mentioned in UDHR isn't a violation of the neutral point of view" and I still hold this conviction. [[User:أحمد ناجي|<span style="color:#000000; font-size:18px; font-family:Blackadder ITC;">'''Ahmed Naji'''</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:أحمد ناجي|<span style="color:#339900; font-size:15px; font-family:Arial;">'''Talk'''</span>]]</sup> 19:45, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
:{{remove}} -- calling the crisis "Israel-created" as opposed to "Hamas-created" is disinformation; it's telling that not a single word could be spared to condemn the 10/7 attack by Hamas that threatened the lives of Israeli Wikimedians; nor is there any mention of the hostages still being held. Everyone involved with the publication of this should be ashamed of themselves. [[User:Swatjester|<font color="red">&rArr;</font>]][[User_talk:Swatjester|<font face="Euclid Fraktur"><font color="black">SWAT</font><font color="goldenrod">Jester</font></font>]] [[en:WP:DC|<small><sup>Son of the Defender</sup></small>]] 20:04, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
::A more appropriate form will be Hamas-created Israel-intensified, so I see the current iteration as purely political statement that tries to shift blame on one party - i.e. the intention seems not to address the situation but to assign blame on the initial victim.
::But yeah this is still technically in scope, so it should be kept. [[User:1233|1233]] <small>（[[User Talk:1233|T]]</small>&nbsp;/&nbsp;<small>[[Special:Contributions/1233|C]]）</small> 03:05, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
::One need not qualify a statement against genocide with condemnations of the perpetrator's adversaries. [[User:AP295|AP295]] ([[User talk:AP295|talk]]) 11:46, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
: {{vk}} If you disagree with this you are welcome to not sign it, or start your own competing open letter. Meta-Wiki is not censored. [[User:Pppery|* Pppery *]] [[User talk:Pppery|<sub style="color:#800000">it has begun</sub>]] 20:06, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
: {{vk}} Since we are a global movement with a core principle based on community, free knowledge, participation and the recognition the value of all the individuals in the world, I think the correct answer is peace. Although not everyone is on the same page, the majority of people in the movement are against the occupation, the massacre and the destruction of a culture (including universities, temples and all kinds of culture heritage). --[[User:Luisalvaz|Luisalvaz]] ([[User talk:Luisalvaz|talk]]) 20:35, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
: {{vk}} I can't understand why some insist on deleting this statemen.. Do they want to wait for killing more innocent Palestinians while the world turns a blind eye? [[User:Freedom&#39;s Falcon|Freedom&#39;s Falcon]] ([[User talk:Freedom&#39;s Falcon|talk]]) 20:55, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

:{{vk}} This page falls within the [[Meta:Inclusion policy|scope]] of '''Meta Wiki'''. The rationale behind the deletion nomination is that the page does not adhere to the principle of [[Neutral point of view]]. As outlined in [[Meta:What Meta is not]], '"Meta is not written from a neutral point of view. It concerns the entire Wikimedia community, and often contains the opinions of specific users,'" thereby invalidating the sole basis for the proposed deletion. Additionally, [[Meta:What Meta is not]] states, "Meta is not an encyclopedia, and does not collect encyclopedic information." Thus, referencing Wiki'''p'''edia and its NPOV policy in the deletion discussion of a page on Meta Wiki is not relevant. Moreover, I observe a [[:he:ויקיפדיה:כיכר העיר#הודעה חשובה|potential case of canvassing]]; although I do not understand the language, Google Translate outputs led me to this suspicion. --<span>[[User:Mrb Rafi| <font color="#36454F">'''BIDROHI'''</font>]] <sup>[[User talk:Mrb Rafi|Hello..]]</sup></span> 21:00, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
:{{vk}} The page does not pretend to be an encyclopedia article but presents itself as the position of a group of Wikimedia organisations and Wikimedians. Over the history of the Wikimedia movement, the movement as a whole or groups within it have taken political positions; this is compatible with neutrality of project content and in some cases it is demanded by our cause of free and open knowledge. This wiki is not a content project and is a suitable venue for users to express opinions about the effect of events such as wars on our mission. [[User:MartinPoulter|MartinPoulter]] ([[User talk:MartinPoulter|talk]]) 21:26, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
:{{remove}} Wikipedia should not engage in political advocacy, it undermines Wikipedia's neutrality. [[User:שמיה רבה|שמיה רבה]] ([[User talk:שמיה רבה|talk]]) 22:21, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
::This is meta.wikimedia; it's not Wikipedia -- [[User:Sleyece|Sleyece]] ([[User talk:Sleyece|talk]]) 11:40, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
:{{vk}} Per OwenBlacker, and we are a democratic community, and it's important to have space for open letters.--<span style="font-family: Andalus; font-size: 15px; text-shadow: silver 0.2em 0.2em 0.1em;"><font color="FF000000">[[User:فيصل|'''Faisal ''']]</font><sup>[[User talk:فيصل|talk]]</sup></span> 01:26, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
:{{remove}} Although I agree with much of the sentiment in the letter, and can respect the wishes of components of the Wikimedia empire to express opinions on political or social issues, it is not the purpose of Wikimedia as a whole. [[User:Zero0000|Zero0000]] ([[User talk:Zero0000|talk]]) 02:34, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
::To be clear, you voted remove while making an argument for keep. -- [[User:Sleyece|Sleyece]] ([[User talk:Sleyece|talk]]) 11:37, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
:{{remove}} Even when most of us can agree with the fact that what's happening in Gaza is horrifying, speaking about it in terms of "oppressor/oppressed" is an oversimplification of the issue and lacks the rigor Wikipedia should have. {{Unsigned|Foránea|04:33, 12 April 2024|26591062}}
::This is not Wikipedia, and thousands of people massacred is not an oversimplification. [[User:Luisalvaz|Luisalvaz]] ([[User talk:Luisalvaz|talk]]) 17:46, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
::Israel is running an apartheid state and is now committing genocide. This ''is'' "oppressor/oppressed", plain and simple. [[User:Dronebogus|Dronebogus]] ([[User talk:Dronebogus|talk]]) 11:17, 13 April 2024 (UTC)
:{{vk}}. This concerns Wikimedia communities and editors, some of whom have already been killed by this siege. Wikimedia has a responsibility to at least ensure the safety of volunteers. Why would anyone oppose this? -<font style="white-space:nowrap;text-shadow:#FF0000 0.1em 0.1em 1.5em,#01EE796D -0.1em -0.1em 1.5em;color:#00000F">[[User:Masssly|<font color="#01EE796D"><b>—M@sssly</b></font>]][[User talk:Masssly|<font color="#FFEG0000"><sup>✉</sup></font>]]</font> 04:44, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
:{{vk}}, wikipedia must stand for against any kind of injustice always. [[User:Bengali editor|Bengali editor]] ([[User talk:Bengali editor|talk]]) 06:05, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
::This is wikimedia, not wikipedia. -- [[User:Sleyece|Sleyece]] ([[User talk:Sleyece|talk]]) 11:41, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
:{{vk}} Many objections to the page's existence seem to think we're on Wikipedia right now. Not to mention that the desire to delete the page on the grounds of it being unnecessarily political is as inherently political as its creation. [[User:Battleofalma|Battleofalma]] ([[User talk:Battleofalma|talk]]) 10:15, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
:{{vk}} justice! Why would anyone oppose this? <span style="border:3px outset;border-radius:8pt 0;padding:1px 5px;background:linear-gradient(#C0C0,#86c,#00FF)">[[User:Zulf|<span style="color:#FFF;text-decoration:inherit;font:1em Lucida Sans">🌴Zulf</span>]]</span> <sup>[[User talk:Zulf|''talk'']]</sup> 11:31, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
:{{vk}} there is no hard rule that says Wikimedians cannot publish political statements. English Wikipedia doesn’t rule Wikimedia; in fact it’s closer to the opposite. I don’t like to wade too much into the political meta-argument over this deletion but this coming on the heels of [[Requests for comment/Community consensus for blackouts and other advocacy|an unsubtle attempt to prevent ArWiki from condemning the war in Gaza]] sure seems like an attempt to enforce the West’s anti-Palestinian taboo on Wikimedia. Should Wikimedia not allow advocacy? Maybe, maybe not. But as long as there’s a lopsided focus on censoring pro-Palestinian advocacy I’ll vote against every one of these campaigns. [[User:Dronebogus|Dronebogus]] ([[User talk:Dronebogus|talk]]) 12:07, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
:{{remove}} Extremely one-sided statement which completely ignores atrocities which has been done by the other side and, above all, violates any NPOV policy that was determined by the foundation. [[User:TheStriker|TheStriker]] ([[User talk:TheStriker|talk]]) 14:34, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
::are there any special rules? <span style="border:3px outset;border-radius:8pt 0;padding:1px 5px;background:linear-gradient(#C0C0,#86c,#00FF)">[[User:Zulf|<span style="color:#FFF;text-decoration:inherit;font:1em Lucida Sans">🌴Zulf</span>]]</span> <sup>[[User talk:Zulf|''talk'']]</sup> 15:39, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
::This statement is not on behalf of the foundation, but the community (which is independent). There are not NPOV policies that limits our freedom of speech as volunteers and affiliates. [[User:Luisalvaz|Luisalvaz]] ([[User talk:Luisalvaz|talk]]) 17:43, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
:{{vk}} [[es:Usuario:PetrohsW|petrohs]] ([[es:Usuario Discusión:PetrohsW|gracias]]) 14:43, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
:{{remove}} Partisan and unobjective. [[User:SigTif|SigTif]] ([[User talk:SigTif|talk]]) 18:07, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
:{{vk}} and '''move''' to [[Joint statement by Wikimedia organizations and individuals regarding the ongoing situation in Palestine, 7 April 2024]]. It is about the Wikimedia project, after all, but the page title is somewhat misleading. --[[User:魔琴|魔琴]] ([[User talk:魔琴|talk]]) 19:05, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
::That sounds fine [[User:Dronebogus|Dronebogus]] ([[User talk:Dronebogus|talk]]) 11:23, 13 April 2024 (UTC)
:: {{Support}} the page title should be changed. I also support keeping the page, of course. [[User:Le Loy|Le Loy]] ([[User talk:Le Loy|talk]]) 22:56, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
: {{vk}} [[User:أمين|أمين]] ([[User talk:أمين|talk]]) 21:17, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
: {{vk}} [[User:Celinea33|Celinea33]] ([[User talk:Celinea33|talk]]) 22:02, 13 April 2024 (UTC)
: {{Keep}} Absolutely bogus to believe this page is "one-sided". There is nothing "one-sided" about advocating for an ethnic group currently being starved to death and unjustly massacred. Lastly, there is no mention or support for Hamas anywhere on the page. This isn't a case of politics, this is a case of humanity. EDIT: Further explanation regarding why this page should kept in accordance wtih Meta policies: "On the topic of politics, I would like to point (to the judging admin) that if we have pages related to political issues, such as [[Black Lives Matter]] (which failed an RFD, thankfully), we surely can keep this page as well. One could also argue, based on the [[Meta:Inclusion policy]], that the page in question falls under "documentation and discussion concerning the Wikimedia Foundation and its projects". A Wikimedia member [[Talk:Joint_Statement_on_Palestine#A_Wikimedian_from_Gaza|from Gaza]] even commented on the talk page of the joint statement, detailing their struggles as a Wikimedian living under the brutal conditions Israel has imposed. A lot of the opposing comments seem to be jarred at "Wikimedia not being political", failing to consider other political pages on Meta (as mentioned above, and including [[2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine]]). A lot of them are raising clearly political points, completely ignoring the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_humanitarian_crisis_(2023%E2%80%93present) very real humanitarian crisis going on in Gaza]. I wanted to dwell more on my comment rather than just letting it be almost entirely subjective, and I was glad to have found some time to relate to Meta's policies." —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 23:57, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
{{collapse top|Off-topic discussion. – [[User:Ajraddatz|Ajraddatz]] ([[User Talk:Ajraddatz|talk]]) 21:18, 18 April 2024 (UTC)}}
::Indeed it's a matter of humanity and I agree with your points, but it is also a matter of politics. There's no reason one should avoid political discourse in the first place. Correct me if I'm wrong, but WP:NPOV only states that wikipedia articles must be objective and fair. Do not confuse objectivity with political or moral quietism/apathy. If anything, healthy political discourse might have prevented this sad state of affairs. [[User:AP295|AP295]] ([[User talk:AP295|talk]]) 09:49, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
:::Thanks for your reply, AP295. <strike>On the topic of politics, I would like to point (to the judging admin) that if we have pages related to political issues, such as [[Black Lives Matter]] (which failed an RFD, thankfully), we surely can keep this page as well. One could also argue, based on the [[Meta:Inclusion policy]], that the page in question falls under "documentation and discussion concerning the Wikimedia Foundation and its projects". A Wikimedia member [[Talk:Joint_Statement_on_Palestine#A_Wikimedian_from_Gaza|from Gaza]] even commented on the talk page of the joint statement, detailing their struggles as a Wikimedian living under the brutal conditions Israel has imposed. A lot of the opposing comments seem to be jarred at "Wikimedia not being political", failing to consider other political pages on Meta (as mentioned above, and including [[2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine]]). A lot of them are raising clearly political points, completely ignoring the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_humanitarian_crisis_(2023%E2%80%93present) very real humanitarian crisis going on in Gaza]. I wanted to dwell more on my comment rather than just letting it be almost entirely subjective, and I was glad to have found some time to relate to Meta's policies. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 13:44, 17 April 2024 (UTC)</strike> <small>(moved above so my comment can be easily read)</small>
::::The response to the invasion of Ukraine seems very constructive! I'm not opposed to taking stances or helping innocent people or taking action in general, so long as it's constructive and positive and helpful. [[User:Kim Bruning|Kim Bruning]] ([[User talk:Kim Bruning|talk]]) 14:21, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
:::::What is the difference between Ukraine and Palestine besides the fact that it’s politically correct to support the former? [[User:Dronebogus|Dronebogus]] ([[User talk:Dronebogus|talk]]) 14:31, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
:: I mourn deeply for all those who perished in the war, extending my sorrow not only to the Arab communities of Gaza and the West Bank but also to the innocent Jewish victims of Palestinian terrorism. Do you perceive the flaw in the Statement? It selectively portrays one facet of the tragedy, advancing the agenda of Hamas. Hence, I denounce it as nothing short of propaganda. This oversimplified narrative reduces a multifaceted issue to stark contrasts, casting Israel and the Jewish people as sole "oppressors" while perpetuating the portrayal of Palestinians as perpetual "victims". However, the world is far more nuanced than this.{{pb}}It becomes abundantly clear from this RFD discussion that such a Statement only harms the Wikimedia Movement, fuelling anti-Semitism and dividing communities. [[User:Aisha8787|Aisha8787]] ([[User talk:Aisha8787|talk]]) 11:07, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
{{collapse bottom}}
:{{vk}} Meta is not written from a neutral point of view. It is not an encyclopedia or other educational resource, and hence, has no need for NPOV. Wikimedians should be free to express their opinions on Meta, unless those opinions are pure vandalism or spam. [[User:Justarandomamerican|Justarandomamerican]] ([[User talk:Justarandomamerican|talk]]) 22:38, 13 April 2024 (UTC)
:{{remove}} It is a political message that has nothing to do with the goals of the Wikimedia Foundation. Leaving the message makes Wikimedia a political entity. [[User:דוד שי|דוד שי]] ([[User talk:דוד שי|talk]]) 23:45, 13 April 2024 (UTC)
:{{remove}} [[User:Estyxxxx|Estyxxxx]] ([[User talk:Estyxxxx|talk]]) 23:59, 13 April 2024 (UTC)
::{{remove}} This is not twitter.
::[[User:Ex ex|Ex ex]] ([[User talk:Ex ex|talk]]) 00:32, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
:{{remove}}It has nothing to do with Wikimedia Foundation. [[User:שמש מרפא|שמש מרפא]] ([[User talk:שמש מרפא|talk]]) 00:58, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
:{{remove}} This statement has been replaced by [[Talk:Joint_Statement_on_Palestine#What_WMF_should_do?]] which is being deseminated on the mailing list and asking people to come here and sign. [[Special:Contributions/27.32.205.146|27.32.205.146]] 02:08, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
: {{vk}} [[User:Mystrixo|Mystrixo]] ([[User talk:Mystrixo|talk]]) 04:21, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
:{{remove}} Utterly one-sided in favor of the aggressor, failing to acknowledge their responsibility for executing the deadliest single-day attack in the history of this conflict.
:While the diversity of perspectives in Wikimedia is valued, the inclusion of such a statement could risk politicizing this platform and alienating individuals who hold differing viewpoints. Wikimedia's primary focus should remain on providing neutral and reliable information, and endorsing one side of a complex geopolitical issue may compromise its reputation for impartiality. [[User:YedidyaPopper|YedidyaPopper]] ([[User talk:YedidyaPopper|talk]]) 05:10, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
::Please stop distorting facts. The aggressor is your country. [[User:Interaccoonale|Interaccoonale]] ([[User talk:Interaccoonale|talk]]) 16:36, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
:::I’ve said it before and will say it again: arguing with an Israeli about Palestine is like arguing with a Turkish person about the Armenian Genocide. [[User:Dronebogus|Dronebogus]] ([[User talk:Dronebogus|talk]]) 01:00, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
:{{remove}} [[User:העיתונאי המנטר|העיתונאי המנטר]] ([[User talk:העיתונאי המנטר|talk]]) 08:26, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
:{{remove}} [[User:דגן דיגן|דגן דיגן]] ([[User talk:דגן דיגן|talk]]) 10:03, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
:{{remove}} It is a political message that has nothing to do with the goals of the Wikimedia Foundation. Wikimedia is not Twitter. [[User:בן עדריאל|בן עדריאל]] ([[User talk:בן עדריאל|talk]]) 10:05, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
:{{remove}} It is a political message which should not be mentioned in Wikimedia. [[User:ykantor | ykantor]] 12:47, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
:{{vk}} Editors and communities on Wikimedia are affected by this, as some have already perished as a result of the siege. At the very least, it is the duty of Wikipedia to protect its volunteers. Why would someone be against this?. [[User:SIR SUCCESS (NAA JAHINFO)|SIR SUCCESS (NAA JAHINFO)]] ([[User talk:SIR SUCCESS (NAA JAHINFO)|talk]]) 13:50, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
: {{vk}} دعما لمن لا علاقة له بالحرب. [[User:أبو هشام|أبو هشام]] ([[User talk:أبو هشام|talk]]) 14:27, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
:{{keep}} - MartinPoulter sums up my thoughts well. There is no evidence the user groups are speaking on behalf of Wikimedia. However, I think the title could be adjusted to make this clear. [[User:Leaderboard|Leaderboard]] ([[User talk:Leaderboard|talk]]) 14:31, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
:{{remove}} [[User:אייל|אייל]] ([[User talk:אייל|talk]]) 14:40, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
:{{remove}} - clearly political and subjective. I would expect it to call on Hamas to release the kidnapped and surrender, not de-facto blame Israel, but that's my political opinion and it too should not appear in a joint statement. [[User:DGtal|DGtal]] ([[User talk:DGtal|talk]]) 07:47, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
:{{remove}} Not our scope. --[[User:Krd|Krd]] 08:02, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
*{{comment}} an outsize number of “delete” voters are clearly Israeli, either explicitly or implicitly (no other country speaks Hebrew). Many of those same users have barely or never used Meta before. It’s entirely possible there’s nationalistically-motivated canvassing going on here. [[User:Dronebogus|Dronebogus]] ([[User talk:Dronebogus|talk]]) 10:02, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
*: There is clearly canvassing going on on both sides here (or at least those who have been shown to the page see the deletion discussion link at the top). Comments from Meta-Wiki regulars, and those commenting as to how the page fits or does not fit in the [[Meta:Inclusion policy]] will be more heavily weighted than the others. – [[User:Ajraddatz|Ajraddatz]] ([[User Talk:Ajraddatz|talk]]) 15:47, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
*::...Except on one side, there is an overt call to members of the Hebrew Wikipedia from someone who had never edited on that Wikipedia to urgently come and comment on this RfD. The eyesore of a banner on top (which won't be missed when it's gone) is an invitation to all, and can hardly be equated with canvassing. I agree that "on both sides" there are people who are for/against the statement itself, which is not what this RfD is about, and I trust the closing admin will be able to judge which of the arguments have merit and which are mere "voting" on the statement. In fact if this were a popular vote, I would argue that all the individuals who've signed the statement should count towards "keep". In any case, it would set a dangerous precedent if a page on Meta is deleted because someone doesn't like or agree with its content. [[User:Fjmustak|Fjmustak]] ([[User talk:Fjmustak|talk]]) 18:26, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
*::I would suggest focusing on the merits of arguments, not on who made them. This is [[:d:Q4654725|a cross-Wiki policy]] (Enwiki users probably are familiar with it as [[:en:WP:AVOIDYOU]]), although apparently it has not found its way into Meta pages. [[User:Deinocheirus|Deinocheirus]] ([[User talk:Deinocheirus|talk]]) 16:35, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
*::In fact, on this very page some users are already engaging in ''personal'' attacks on others. And these attacks are ''not'' coming from people who have supposedly been called here to vote "remove". --[[User:Deinocheirus|Deinocheirus]] ([[User talk:Deinocheirus|talk]]) 17:33, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
*:::People who actually edit Metawiki frequently, who have actual arguments, have a right to be annoyed and maybe a bit less-than-polite with a bunch of people who never edited this wiki in their life showing up in a coordinated mass-vote with little or no case to delete. [[User:Dronebogus|Dronebogus]] ([[User talk:Dronebogus|talk]]) 16:20, 20 April 2024 (UTC)
*::::I don't think they do (have the right). There are not a lot of "people who actually edit Metawiki frequently", and most Wikimedians come here only after announcements in other projects. So I really doubt that all people who signed the original petition, as well as all people who vote "keep" here have found these pages on their own, without prompting from other users. [[User:Deinocheirus|Deinocheirus]] ([[User talk:Deinocheirus|talk]]) 18:52, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
:{{keep}} It doesn't violate wikimedia policies.--[[User:Dr-Taher|Dr-Taher]] ([[User talk:Dr-Taher|talk]]) 20:13, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
:{{keep}} I don't find a reason on how the page does not fit under our scope. Its name does appear problematic as noted by {{u|魔琴}} and a rename to a suitable new title should work, for instance, [[Collective Letter from Wikimedia movement groups and individuals about ongoing situation in Palestine concerning Palestinian Wikimedia community, date perhaps?]]. Neutral point of view is not an issue here because Meta is not an encyclopedia nor is this an encyclopedic article. It hasn't been portrayed as a statement by anyone else not signing it. If someone doesn't agree, a simple solution would be not to sign it. Getting it deleting for mere disagreement is not a policy-centered idea. None of the delete voters have so far provided an argument on how this page fails the scope and inclusion policy of Meta-Wiki. I'd be glad to change my vote if there comes a policy-centered argument about how exacly the page fails and why explictly it should be deleted. I mean not just: "I don't like it", "Out of scope", "fails this policy". Exactly how and why? Best regards, ─ [[User:Aafi|<span style="color:SteelBlue">Aafī</span>]] [[User talk:Aafi|<span style="color:#80A0FF">(talk)</span>]] 21:00, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
: {{remove}} per above. [[user:Neriah|Neriah]] - [[user talk:Neriah|💬]] - 22:30, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

:{{keep}} It's for a good cause. Some parts are rather non-specific and should probably be made clearer, but I get the gist of it. As others have pointed out, NPOV only applies to wikipedia articles. To say that everyone must remain apolitical at all times on any wikimedia site is nonsense, and would essentially amount to political censorship. The word "neutral" is being applied as euphemism to conflate objectivity and political quietism. [[User:AP295|AP295]] ([[User talk:AP295|talk]]) 09:19, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
::What is the rationale to say that this is for a good cause?
::Many people here don't agree that this is for a good cause. [[User:BilboBeggins|BilboBeggins]] ([[User talk:BilboBeggins|talk]]) 13:25, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
:::So Israel murdering civilians ''is'' a good cause? [[User:Dronebogus|Dronebogus]] ([[User talk:Dronebogus|talk]]) 13:29, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
:::Israel is accused of genocide in the world court. [[User:AP295|AP295]] ([[User talk:AP295|talk]]) 12:22, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
:{{keep}} It doesn't violate wikimedia policies. [[User:Batoul84|Batoul84]] ([[User talk:Batoul84|talk]]) 10:02, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
: {{Keep}}. A statement of solidarity with peaceful civilians, including Wikipedians who have died in the conflict, does not violate any Meta rules or Wikimedia-wide policies. [[user:stjn|stjn]]<sup>[[:ru:user:stjn|[ru]]]</sup> 13:29, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
:{{remove}} There is essay WP:Nothere which sums up why this should not be here and should be removed. [[User:BilboBeggins|BilboBeggins]] ([[User talk:BilboBeggins|talk]]) 17:58, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
::: Essays aren't policy. [[User:AP295|AP295]] ([[User talk:AP295|talk]]) 18:34, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
::Wikipedia policies hold no bearing on Meta-Wiki. --<span style="font-family:BlinkMacSystemFont">[[User:SHB2000|SHB2000]] <small>([[User talk:SHB2000#top|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/SHB2000|contribs]])</small></span> 00:20, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
:{{remove}} [[User:ארז האורז|ארז האורז]] ([[User talk:ארז האורז|talk]]) 07:28, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
:{{keep}}, it is clearly ok to make a humanitarian statement, no reason to censor it. [[User:Wikisaurus|Wikisaurus]] ([[User talk:Wikisaurus|talk]]) 08:06, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
:{{remove}} per בן עדריאל. --[[User:Всезнайка|Всезнайка]] ([[User talk:Всезнайка|talk]]) 10:57, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

:{{Remove}}. Wikimedia projects shouldn't be exploited for spreading propaganda or advancing the agendas of terrorist organisations. The Statement bears a striking resemblance to a PR ploy by Hamas: they initiated the conflict with heinous acts like murders, kidnappings, and even rapes ("[https://news.un.org/en/story/2024/03/1147217 rapesistance]"?), yet shamelessly shift blame onto Israel. They callously employ innocent [https://stratcomcoe.org/cuploads/pfiles/hamas_human_shields.pdf children as shields], hiding behind them whilst evading accountability. Additionally, they [https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/how-gaza-health-ministry-fakes-casualty-numbers manipulate casualty numbers] to fit their narrative. As Mosab Hassan Yousef, son of [[:w:en:Hassan Yousef (Hamas leader)|Sheikh Hassan Yousef]], rightly said, "You only speak on the authority of Hamas propaganda, because if you were a decent human being, you can say that the thousands that were killed on October 7 that it was a crime against humanity, it was a genocide!" We cannot turn a blind eye to the severe human rights abuses and war crimes committed by Hamas, Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades, Islamic Jihad, al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades, and other Palestinian terrorist groups. Let's ensure that the Wikimedia Movement steadfastly upholds neutrality, accuracy, and champions peace, truth, and justice. Free Palestine (from Hamas)! [[User:Aisha8787|Aisha8787]] ([[User talk:Aisha8787|talk]]) 11:57, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
::Israel and its proxies can claim genocide all they want but that means nothing when they’re routinely talking of ethnically cleansing Palestinians out of “their” territory. [[User:Dronebogus|Dronebogus]] ([[User talk:Dronebogus|talk]]) 13:23, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

:{{Remove}} I don't want to be mean, but this seems to be the wrong place for this particular approach. 1. Explicitly rejects [[Foundation issues]]: ''("If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor.")''; 2. attacks/lays blame at feet of one party, ''("ongoing Israel-created humanitarian crisis")'' thus arguably falling afoul of [[Meta:Inclusion policy#Not acceptable|Inclusion policy on no dedicated attack pages]]; 3. Obviously DOES advocate, which would be ok, but it doesn't fit in with other [[:Category:Essays|essays here]], since it's not really advocating for just actions actionable by wikimedia (eg. ''("demand an immediate and lasting ceasefire")''; . 4. It's WP:NOTHERE to build an Encyclopedia, Dictionary, Multimedia Repository, etc; 5. It's divisive to/for/between the communities in the current form. 6. Overall very little seems actionable by the foundation or the diverse wikimedia communities at this time. | Basically this is the wrong place for this sort of action. / Alternately -with editing- possibly something actionable and useful for all *could* be done(?), but the current format doesn't seem conducive to editing as such. It's a fixed signed statement, so if we edit it, we effectively change what the people signed. --[[User:Kim Bruning|Kim Bruning]] ([[User talk:Kim Bruning|talk]]) 12:42, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
{{collapse top|Off-topic discussion. – [[User:Ajraddatz|Ajraddatz]] ([[User Talk:Ajraddatz|talk]]) 21:18, 18 April 2024 (UTC)}}
::Israel ''did'' create this humanitarian crisis. What tactical advantage did they possibly gain over Hamas by indiscriminately destroying homes or creating an artificial famine? [[User:Dronebogus|Dronebogus]] ([[User talk:Dronebogus|talk]]) 13:21, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
:::My primary worry here is that the way this is being approached right this moment will lead to acrimonious political debate, rather than constructive wiki activity. --[[User:Kim Bruning|Kim Bruning]] ([[User talk:Kim Bruning|talk]]) 17:03, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
::::It’s too late for that; it’s already become an acrimonious political debate. It’s just that one side is just “what about October 7” “what about Hamas” “what about Nazis” “too political” “not neutral”; none of these arguments apply to what the open letter is saying— there’s a humanitarian crisis, created by Israel, with no attempts at mitigation by Israel (in fact quite the opposite) and the authors and signatories support the rights of the millions of innocent Palestinians suffering because of it. [[User:Dronebogus|Dronebogus]] ([[User talk:Dronebogus|talk]]) 18:20, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
::::: The IDF tirelessly facilitates humanitarian aid to reach civilians in Gaza, providing food, water, shelter supplies, and medical equipment. Despite these efforts, Hamas members forcibly seize aid from civilians, exacerbating the situation. It's clear who truly creates problems. [[User:Aisha8787|Aisha8787]] ([[User talk:Aisha8787|talk]]) 18:37, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
::::::That’s a good one. [[User:Dronebogus|Dronebogus]] ([[User talk:Dronebogus|talk]]) 00:55, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
::::::Straight bullshit. [[User:AP295|AP295]] ([[User talk:AP295|talk]]) 12:48, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
::::::: [[WM:CIVIL]]. [[User:Aisha8787|Aisha8787]] ([[User talk:Aisha8787|talk]]) 12:53, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
::::::::I hardly think it's civil to tell such bald faced lies and tall tales as that, less civil still to abuse site policy to silence critique.[[User:AP295|AP295]] ([[User talk:AP295|talk]]) 13:14, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
::::::::: I base my stance on firsthand reports from sources on the ground in Arabic and the testimonies of Gazans themselves. It's evident that Hamas, in a brazen display of disregard for human life, has shamelessly pilfered humanitarian aid meant for civilians.{{pb}}I urge you to heed the voices of the residents of Gaza themselves, rather than lending an ear to the terrorists who seek to manipulate and deceive. [https://youtube.com/shorts/nO-zM5dDG28 الجيش الإسرائيلي / قطاع غزة (Gaza)]. [[User:Aisha8787|Aisha8787]] ([[User talk:Aisha8787|talk]]) 14:54, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
::::::::::Part of a journalist's question at the 1/11/24 state department briefing "''You have evidence of industrial-style killing. The South African legal team presented 20 minutes straight of statements on the record by Israeli leadership expressing the intent to commit genocide, for example, referring to the Palestinian population as Amalek. ''".[https://www.state.gov/briefings/department-press-briefing-january-11-2024/] An article on the UNICEF website reads "''More than 13,000 children have died since bombardment began on Oct. 7, "an astronomically horrifying number," said UNICEF Executive Director Catherine Russell.''"[https://www.unicefusa.org/stories/more-13000-children-reported-dead-gaza-famine-nears] And from ohchr.org, "''Gazans now make up 80 per cent of all people facing famine or catastrophic hunger worldwide, marking an unparalleled humanitarian crisis in the Gaza Strip amid Israel’s continued bombardment and siege, according to UN human rights experts.''"[https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2024/01/over-one-hundred-days-war-israel-destroying-gazas-food-system-and] [[User:AP295|AP295]] ([[User talk:AP295|talk]]) 16:03, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
::::::::::: Thanks for sharing those links, I'll give them a read later and ponder on them. But let's not forget, in this whole discussion, that even organisations like [[:w:en:Israeli allegations against UNRWA|UNRWA]] and [https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/palestinian-al-jazeera-journalist-also-a-hamas-commander-idf-says/ Al Jazeera] have been infiltrated by terrorists. So, take everything you hear with a pinch of salt, darling. [[User:Aisha8787|Aisha8787]] ([[User talk:Aisha8787|talk]]) 18:14, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
::::::::::::The US state department cut funding to UNRWA hours after the court refused to dismiss the case in the first interim ruling. The USDS are corrupt thugs, though sometimes you'll see the journalists put them on the spot during state department press briefings. All they can do is deflect. It's all on their website, but I doubt you'd catch these salient portions on CNN, FOX and MSNBC. [[User:AP295|AP295]] ([[User talk:AP295|talk]]) 19:30, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
::::::::::::: Seriously, though, can we cut the nonsense and get to the point? This back-and-forth ain't doing anyone any favours. [[User:Aisha8787|Aisha8787]] ([[User talk:Aisha8787|talk]]) 19:36, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
::::::::::::::The point is, South Africa's accusations seem well substantiated in the application and by newer evidence. Israel is credibly accused of Genocide and the US secretary of state has nothing to say to the public but [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AA9c0A0zZCI "''these charges are meritless''"]? Does anyone really believe this insulting nonsense? At any rate, the ''Joint Statement on Palestine'' page should be kept. [[User:AP295|AP295]] ([[User talk:AP295|talk]]) 19:58, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
:::::::::: And I could go on. I'm quite certain that Israel presently ''terrifies'' many more people than Hamas, so the presumption of moral authority or superiority is wearing quite thin. [[User:AP295|AP295]] ([[User talk:AP295|talk]]) 16:22, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
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:{{Remove}}, Wikimedia should not take sides in such a blatant matter. Seems like the authors of the discussed page are not at all worried about Wikimedians in Israel and its cultural heritage, only those in Gaza, despite the fact that Israeli cities, its population and citizens abroad are constantly subjected to violent attacks, of which October 7 and the recent Iranian missile/drone barrage are only two most glaring examples. --[[User:Deinocheirus|Deinocheirus]] ([[User talk:Deinocheirus|talk]]) 12:55, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
{{collapse top|Off-topic discussion. – [[User:Ajraddatz|Ajraddatz]] ([[User Talk:Ajraddatz|talk]]) 21:18, 18 April 2024 (UTC)}}
::Israel and its heritage are under zero threat of destruction as long as the US keeps supplying them massive quantities of munitions. As for Wikimedians in Israel they’re all here complaining about this essay. [[User:Dronebogus|Dronebogus]] ([[User talk:Dronebogus|talk]]) 13:28, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
:::This is simply not true. There were attacks at Israeli cultural institutions, there were attacks at the cultural events, including on October 7, and NO amount of munitions can guarantee that every single Iranian rocket is intercepted and doesn't ruin an ancient synagogue, museum or theatre. Not to mention that there probably were at least some Wikimedians among the victims of October 7 and other attacks, we just don't know them given the anonymity of most Wikipedia accounts. [[Special:Contributions/2605:B100:D4E:C96:0:9:633F:8D01|2605:B100:D4E:C96:0:9:633F:8D01]] 14:19, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
::::Now this is about Iran? Didn’t Israel start that without provocation? Maybe the best way to protect your country is not to be a warmongering apartheid state. [[User:Dronebogus|Dronebogus]] ([[User talk:Dronebogus|talk]]) 14:29, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
:::::Didn't Hamas start the current humanitarian crisis with provocation? I repeat (for the last time since my words seem to fall on deaf ears): as long as this "essay" addresses only one side's safety and cultural heritage, it is not in compliance with the Wikimedia Foundation's policy. [[User:Deinocheirus|Deinocheirus]] ([[User talk:Deinocheirus|talk]]) 14:31, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
:::That was me above. I also would add that Israeli Wikimedians are quite right complaining about this essay because it doesn't address their safety and their culture. It also doesn't address the history of disregard for previous ceasefires by the Palestinian militant groups. So, it essentially demands Israel and only Israel to stop hostilities while the other side will be free to continue attacking Israel (including its Wikimedians and its cultural institutions). [[User:Deinocheirus|Deinocheirus]] ([[User talk:Deinocheirus|talk]]) 14:29, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
::Again: History does not begin on October 7th.
::The security of Israeli Wikipedians depends on the Israeli government. If the Israeli government could stops invading and occupying Palestine, stops massacring Palestinians, stops blockading Gaza, stops apartheid and new settlements, and allows all Palestinians who originally lived in the current Israeli "territory" but were expelled in the Nakba to return to their own home, Israeli Wikipedians will be very safe. [[User:Interaccoonale|Interaccoonale]] ([[User talk:Interaccoonale|talk]]) 17:13, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
::: ... Or, rather, very dead. I know Palestine's history, thank you. --[[User:Deinocheirus|Deinocheirus]] ([[User talk:Deinocheirus|talk]]) 17:33, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
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:{{remove}} I'd like to see somebody calling to stop "humanitarian crisis" in 1945 in Berlin. [[User:Vcohen|Vcohen]] ([[User talk:Vcohen|talk]]) 12:56, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
{{collapse top|Off-topic discussion. – [[User:Ajraddatz|Ajraddatz]] ([[User Talk:Ajraddatz|talk]]) 21:18, 18 April 2024 (UTC)}}
::Please stop your inappropriate analogies. It's not Palestine should be compared with Nazi Germany, but Israel.
::If the killing of hundreds of Israeli civilians by Palestinians after 70 years of aggression, occupation and massacre is terrorism, then the killing of German and Japanese civilians by the Allies is also terrorism. Obviously this doesn't make any sense.
::To be honest, I think both are wrong, killing of civilians is never legitimate, and possibly suspected of war crimes (but apparently the latter one has not yet been judged even after 80 years). But "wrong" does not equal to "terrorism," nor does "war crime". And the violation of international humanitarian law by the invaded country can never erase the war crimes of the aggressor. [[User:Interaccoonale|Interaccoonale]] ([[User talk:Interaccoonale|talk]]) 16:50, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
:::They had a brilliant opportunity to establish their own state and develop their own economy, just like Israel did. Instead, they decided to fight and complain. And the more they lose in their fighting, the more they complain. They should either stop fighting or accept the results. [[User:Vcohen|Vcohen]] ([[User talk:Vcohen|talk]]) 08:29, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
::::Don’t you have something better to do than promote racist disinformation about Palestinians? Even Ben Shapiro had enough sense to walk back on his “Arabs like to bomb crap and live in open sewage” remark. [[User:Dronebogus|Dronebogus]] ([[User talk:Dronebogus|talk]]) 12:19, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
::: Allow me to expand upon what I and many others categorize as "terrorism." Palestinian terrorist groups, which you can find listed on the CIA website ([https://www.cia.gov/the-world-factbook/countries/gaza-strip/#terrorism cia.gov/the-world-factbook/countries/gaza-strip/#terrorism]), have perpetrated heinous acts such as '''suicide bombings''' aimed at buses, restaurants, and malls, resulting in the loss of countless innocent lives, including Jews and Israeli Arabs alike.{{pb}}''"A terrorist group is defined as a group that uses terrorist tactics, meaning it '''deliberately''' targets civilians in pursuit of '''political goals'''."'' (© David B. Carter ''[https://www.jstor.org/stable/41428948 A Blessing or a Curse? State Support for Terrorist Groups]''). [[User:Aisha8787|Aisha8787]] ([[User talk:Aisha8787|talk]]) 11:11, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
::::So did United States in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. A standard makes no scene if it does not apply equally to all individuals, organizations and countries. Especially when a country itself has done the same thing, but uses this standard to accuse others. As Dr Adnan Abu Amer, the head of the Political Science Department at the University of the Ummah in Gaza said, [https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2022/12/19/are-palestinians-pro-russia I quote]: "The West must understand that biased, selective application of international law and anti-war action only further encourage aggressors to commit violations." -- [[User:Interaccoonale|Interaccoonale]] ([[User talk:Interaccoonale|talk]]) 13:00, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
::::: Thank you for the quote. But I must express my view that comparing WW II to the current Middle East conflict might not be entirely accurate. Truth often unfolds in layers, more intricate than our initial perceptions. Therefore, I firmly believe that our world is not confined to mere black and white; it's a vibrant spectrum akin to a glorious rainbow.{{pb}}It's widely understood that Hamas harbours a sinister agenda, seeking nothing short of the annihilation of Israel. Their rhetoric, heard in Arabic speeches delivered by sheikhs in mosques, openly calls for the global murder of Jews. We also cannot overlook their previous [https://www.aljazeera.net/encyclopedia/2017/5/2/%D9%85%D9%8A%D8%AB%D8%A7%D9%82-%D8%AD%D8%B1%D9%83%D8%A9-%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%85%D9%82%D8%A7%D9%88%D9%85%D8%A9-%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%A5%D8%B3%D9%84%D8%A7%D9%85%D9%8A%D8%A9-%D8%AD%D9%85%D8%A7%D8%B3-1988 Charter], which shamefully perpetuated the anti-Semitic [https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/protocols-of-the-elders-of-zion Protocols of the Elders of Zion] (إلى الفرات، وعندما يتم لهم هضم المنطقة التي يصلون إليها، يتطلعون إلى توسع آخر وهكذا، ومخططهم في بروتوكولات حكماء صهيون وحاضرهم خير شاهد على ما نقول). Such venomous hate speech is unequivocally unacceptable.{{pb}}Let me be clear: There is no place for spreading hate towards Israel or Jewish members of our Wikimedia community. Our goal here is to build the encyclopedia together, harmoniously. [[User:Aisha8787|Aisha8787]] ([[User talk:Aisha8787|talk]]) 13:35, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
::The media's favored euphemism. "Humanitarian crisis", it sounds like something that results from a tsunami, an earth quake, a bad growing season, or some other natural disaster. [[User:AP295|AP295]] ([[User talk:AP295|talk]]) 20:22, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
::: Human behaviour's like a tsunami, ain't it? In the grand [[:w:en:Ultimate fate of the universe|cosmic ballet]], we're merely celestial [[:w:Determined: A Science of Life Without Free Will|marionettes]], twirling to the whims of destiny's choreography. [[User:Aisha8787|Aisha8787]] ([[User talk:Aisha8787|talk]]) 20:35, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
::::I believe that's called a [[w:thought terminating cliche |thought terminating cliche ]].[[User:AP295|AP295]] ([[User talk:AP295|talk]]) 20:52, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
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:{{vk}} Freedom of information must be free. --[[User:Д. Карнаж|Д. Карнаж]] ([[User talk:Д. Карнаж|talk]]) 13:12, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
::<s>I don’t see how that applies to this situation.</s> [[User:Dronebogus|Dronebogus]] ([[User talk:Dronebogus|talk]]) 13:18, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
:::Y) My mistake. [[User:Д. Карнаж|Д. Карнаж]] ([[User talk:Д. Карнаж|talk]]) 13:58, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

:{{remove}} I started searching in the text: "hostage" - zero; "Hamas" - zero; "October" - zero. Stop! "Israel-created crisis", wow. I wanted to write “a usual piece of jihadist propaganda”, but no, it’s more blatant than usual. Not in my voice. --[[User:Nicoljaus|Nicoljaus]] ([[User talk:Nicoljaus|talk]]) 15:31, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
{{collapse top|Off-topic discussion. – [[User:Ajraddatz|Ajraddatz]] ([[User Talk:Ajraddatz|talk]]) 21:18, 18 April 2024 (UTC)}}
::History does not begin on October 7th. If you have read your ''Torah'', you should know that God has created the world and human civilization a long, long time ago. [[User:Interaccoonale|Interaccoonale]] ([[User talk:Interaccoonale|talk]]) 16:20, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
:::{{tq|If you have read your ''Torah''}} - Wow. The new normal on Wikipedia. [[User:Nicoljaus|Nicoljaus]] ([[User talk:Nicoljaus|talk]]) 16:31, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
::::This is Wikimedia meta, not Wikipedia. [[User:Interaccoonale|Interaccoonale]] ([[User talk:Interaccoonale|talk]]) 16:51, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
:::::"This includes name calling, using slurs or '''stereotypes''', and any attacks based on personal characteristics. Insults may refer to perceived characteristics like intelligence, appearance, ethnicity, race, '''religion'''" [[User:Nicoljaus|Nicoljaus]] ([[User talk:Nicoljaus|talk]]) 23:52, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
::::::I did not attack you. I just assumed that you should know your own culture. Just as a Briton should read Shakespeare, and a French should read Hugo. PS: I am an atheist, but I also know the Chinese mythologies. [[User:Interaccoonale|Interaccoonale]] ([[User talk:Interaccoonale|talk]]) 01:51, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
:::::::You have no idea about my culture, so your speculations are stupid and funny to me, but they are offensive to editors from Israel. Exactly like the statement under discussion. [[User:Nicoljaus|Nicoljaus]] ([[User talk:Nicoljaus|talk]]) 06:44, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
::::::::Your home wiki is the Hebrew wiki.
::::::::I just think it will reduces communication barriers to use the culture you're familiar. For example, obviously I can not assume that everybody knows the Chinese mythology about Pangu. Your baseless accusation clearly violates the [[AGF]]. [[User:Interaccoonale|Interaccoonale]] ([[User talk:Interaccoonale|talk]]) 08:58, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
::::::::PS: I don’t see how it could be offensive to Israeli editors, just as I don’t see how blaming Nazis could be offensive to German editors at all. [[User:Interaccoonale|Interaccoonale]] ([[User talk:Interaccoonale|talk]]) 09:00, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
:::::::::{{tq|Your home wiki is the Hebrew wiki}} - What a blatant lie... Or trolling, idk. [[User:Nicoljaus|Nicoljaus]] ([[User talk:Nicoljaus|talk]]) 09:15, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
::::::::::Sorry, I confused you with another user, my fault. [[User:Interaccoonale|Interaccoonale]] ([[User talk:Interaccoonale|talk]]) 12:46, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
:::::::::::It doesn’t matter what you “сonfused” about, even if we believe you. You have no right to launch personal attacks on the ground of "Hebrew" or "Torah". Just like the statement under discussion, which attacks Israel as falsely as you attributed “Jewishness” to me. [[User:Nicoljaus|Nicoljaus]] ([[User talk:Nicoljaus|talk]]) 15:51, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
::::::::::::Again: Your baseless accusation clearly violates the [[AGF]]. [[User:Interaccoonale|Interaccoonale]] ([[User talk:Interaccoonale|talk]]) 16:36, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
::::::::::::I just want to reduces communication barriers using your culture, just like if somebody was from France, I would adapt the ''Les Misérables'':
::::::::::::{{quote|&#8288;"I persist," continued the conventionary G, "You have mentioned October 7th to me. Let us come to an understanding. Shall we weep for all the innocent, all martyrs, all children, the lowly as well as the exalted? I agree to that. But in that case, as I have told you, we must go back further than 1948, and our tears must begin before Hamas. I will weep with you over the children of Israel, provided that you will weep with me over the children of Palestine." <br><br>"I weep for all," said the Bishop. <br><br>"Equally!" exclaimed conventionary G, "and if the balance must incline, let it be on the side of Palestinians. They have been suffering longer."&#8288; }}
::::::::::::I believe that nobody will accuse me of attacking French people for rewriting ''Les Misérables'', even if they're not actually French and I confused them with a French user. [[User:Interaccoonale|Interaccoonale]] ([[User talk:Interaccoonale|talk]]) 17:00, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
::::::::::::: Before we proceed, let me pose a few questions.<br>1) Do you condemn the [[:w:en:Category:Hamas attacks|atrocities committed by Hamas]]?<br>2) Do you speak out against the genocide of the Uyghurs in the Xīnjiāng Uygur Autonomous Region and the [[:w:zh:新疆再教育營|internment camps there]]? [[User:Aisha8787|Aisha8787]] ([[User talk:Aisha8787|talk]]) 17:08, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
::::::::::::::"I will weep with you over the children of Israel, provided that you will weep with me over the children of Palestine." [[User:Interaccoonale|Interaccoonale]] ([[User talk:Interaccoonale|talk]]) 17:45, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
:: {{outdent|12}} I've got to say, I'm not vibing with the moral vibe of the Abrahamic religions, find them a bit off. And you know what's kinda wild? The Qur'an talks a lot about the sons of Israel (بنو إسرائيل), but seems to have totally blanked on mentioning Palestine. [[User:Aisha8787|Aisha8787]] ([[User talk:Aisha8787|talk]]) 17:54, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
:::Your last comment seems to have nothing to do with this one. I don't quite understand what you want to express. [[User:Interaccoonale|Interaccoonale]] ([[User talk:Interaccoonale|talk]]) 18:15, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
:::: But I haven’t seen your responses to the direct questions. What are your thoughts on the Uyghurs in China? Do you condone the establishment of camps for Uyghurs in Xīnjiāng or not?{{pb}}我问了一个直截了当的问题，你能不能给我一个直截了当的回答？别再为恐怖分子辩护了。 [[User:Aisha8787|Aisha8787]] ([[User talk:Aisha8787|talk]]) 18:28, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
:::::(Obviously this is off-topic.) I have never visited Xinjiang, I cannot tell you what is happening there. I can only answer based on what I have observed: I think China's ethnic policy is problematic and there are some policy-based differential treatments, but I don't think it meets the standard of genocide.
:::::For example, Xinjiang people (regardless of ethnicity) need to go through additional procedures when checking into hotels in other provinces. But they can get into better colleges with lower scores.
:::::In fact, every ethnic group (including the Han people) has some members (on the network) believe that their own ethnic group is treated unfairly by Chinese gov, and other ethnic groups have privileges. That's really incredible. I cannot understand it.
:::::That's all I know about Xinjiang, I can't tell you anything more. [[User:Interaccoonale|Interaccoonale]] ([[User talk:Interaccoonale|talk]]) 18:53, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
:::::: I was in Xīnjiāng with my hubby, right near Pakistan. Cameras everywhere, mosques shut, people scared to chat...{{pb}}Wishing you all the best. Honestly, I'm getting a bit knackered with this discussion. 👋 [[User:Aisha8787|Aisha8787]] ([[User talk:Aisha8787|talk]]) 20:04, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
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:{{Keep}}: There are already some similar pages on meta. <del>&& {{Comment}} to some people who voted to delete: I don't see this page having anything to do with Hamas. How much do you love Hamas that you want to write its name on all pages?</del> [[User:Interaccoonale|Interaccoonale]] ([[User talk:Interaccoonale|talk]]) 16:24, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
:{{remove}} It's an attempt by a certain political group to weaponize Wikipedia, not to mention the grotesque distortion of reality. They failed to mention that there was a ceasefire on October 6, and that it was Hamas who broke it, starting the war on October 7. In fact, they failed to mention Hamas at all. The way they are framing the conflict, it's only Israel and the Palestinians. In their crooked mirror, there is no Hamas, no terror, no 7/10 massacre, no rapes, no hundreds of kidnapped hostages. I don't think that such Orwellian propaganda should exploit Wikivoice.
:[[User:Desertdweller1983|Desertdweller1983]] ([[User talk:Desertdweller1983|talk]]) 17:34, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
::History didn't start at that time, even the past and far away. <span style="border:3px outset;border-radius:9pt 0;padding:1px 7px;background:linear-gradient(to bottom right, blue,#00FF7F)">[[User:Zulf|<span style="color:#fff;font:1em Lucida Sans">🍃Zulf🍃</span>]]</span><sup>[[User talk:Zulf|''talk'']]</sup> 19:16, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
:::Thank you, I understand what history is. And I have a lot to say on the history of the conflict. But our discussion is focused on the statement in question, and my argument remains valid. [[User:Desertdweller1983|Desertdweller1983]] ([[User talk:Desertdweller1983|talk]]) 19:26, 20 April 2024 (UTC)
:{{remove}} If the wiki community turns into a political party, I did not join such a party. Support terrorists separately from Wikipedia. [[User:Pessimist2006|Pessimist]] ([[User talk:Pessimist2006|talk]]) 19:24, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
::This is not Wikipedia. --<span style="font-family:BlinkMacSystemFont">[[User:SHB2000|SHB2000]] <small>([[User talk:SHB2000#top|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/SHB2000|contribs]])</small></span> 00:21, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
:{{Remove}}. Cannot participate in Wikipedia, if it supports terrorists (such as Hamas) killing plenty of innocent people,
:, using Gaza region habitants as human shield, stealing humanitarian aid, etc. [[User:Горизонт событий|Горизонт событий]] ([[User talk:Горизонт событий|talk]]) 04:06, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

:{{comment}} I respectfully ask that this RfD (that doesn't appear to have been made in good faith in the first place) be closed as it is quickly devolving into a political argument that has nothing to do with the statement. Canvassing for participation in this RfD on the [[:he:ויקיפדיה:כיכר העיר|Hebrew]] and [[:ru:Обсуждение проекта:Израиль|Russian]] Wikipedias has summoned people interested in suppressing voices they don't agree with who are deflecting from and drowning any legitimate discussion of the merits of the RfD. --[[User:Fjmustak|Fjmustak]] ([[User talk:Fjmustak|talk]]) 19:41, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
::Starting the request with "respectfully" and ending it with accusing your opponents of being "interested in suppressing voices they don't agree", "deflecting from and drowning any legitimate discussion" doesn't look good at all. I don't see any of your opponents trying to invalidate the uniform "keep" voting from at least seven Arabic Wiki users, or the unsubstantiated "keep" votes from some other users. As I stated earlier, the arguments should be assessed on merits, not on who made them - and most of the "remove" votes here do come with arguments and thus should not be dismissed just because they come from Hebrew or Russian Wiki users. [[User:Deinocheirus|Deinocheirus]] ([[User talk:Deinocheirus|talk]]) 15:21, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
::And what about [[:ar:%D9%88%D9%8A%D9%83%D9%8A%D8%A8%D9%8A%D8%AF%D9%8A%D8%A7:%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%85%D9%8A%D8%AF%D8%A7%D9%86/%D9%85%D9%86%D9%88%D8%B9%D8%A7%D8%AA|ar-wiki]]? [[User:Alaexis|Alaexis]] ([[User talk:Alaexis|talk]]) 21:16, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

:{{vk}} While every Wikimedian is entitled to their opinion and their own political activity outside Wikimedia projects, I believe the WMF, affiliates, and Wikiprojects (collectively) should remain neutral. That being said, deleting an open letter by part of the community is an extraordinary measure I think is not granted here. SOPA blackout enjoyed high support. Almost nobody raised an eyebrow when Ukrainian Wikipedia had several project pages dedicated to support the government of Ukraine, including calls to cyberwarfare. Almost nobody expressed any concern about the Wikimedia Foundation allying with Silicon Valley companies to campaign against Trump's immigration policies. And I certainly do not expect that a call to stop genocide is the instance that is off limits. Would you like more political neutrality from the WMF, affiliates, and Wikimedia projects? Feel free to start the process for a global policy. [[User:MarioGom|MarioGom]] ([[User talk:MarioGom|talk]]) 20:04, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
:I was wondering why everyone from ruwiki suddenly showed up to bloc-vote against keeping. [[User:Dronebogus|Dronebogus]] ([[User talk:Dronebogus|talk]]) 00:58, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
::Not true. At least three spoke in favor of “keep.” [[User:Nicoljaus|Nicoljaus]] ([[User talk:Nicoljaus|talk]]) 06:39, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
:::Metaphor [[User:Dronebogus|Dronebogus]] ([[User talk:Dronebogus|talk]]) 12:17, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
::::Or just another false claim among other “ad hominem” arguments. [[User:Nicoljaus|Nicoljaus]] ([[User talk:Nicoljaus|talk]]) 15:59, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
:::::No. Metaphor. [[User:Dronebogus|Dronebogus]] ([[User talk:Dronebogus|talk]]) 16:18, 20 April 2024 (UTC)
:::::{{re|Nicoljaus}} Try to [[AGF|assume good-faith]], please (and as a native speaker, it's certainly none other than a metaphor). <span style="font-family:BlinkMacSystemFont">[[User:SHB2000|SHB2000]] <small>([[User talk:SHB2000#top|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/SHB2000|contribs]])</small></span> 22:52, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
:: Aisha8787 posted the link to canvass to [[:w:ru:Обсуждение проекта:Израиль#«Совместное заявление о Палестине»]] (WikiProject Israel), then I think it was posted/discussed on one of the Discord servers as well. [[user:stjn|stjn]]<sup>[[:ru:user:stjn|[ru]]]</sup> 16:19, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
::: You see, I made it crystal clear that users had the liberty to present arguments both '''for''' and '''against''' the Statement. I didn't nudge anyone towards opposing it. I made no explicit endorsement for opposition. Rather, I upheld a stance of impartiality in a realm where interests in editing articles on Israel and Palestine run high. I dare say, a statement of such magnitude deserves to echo across all corners of the Wikimedia "universe". [[User:Aisha8787|Aisha8787]] ([[User talk:Aisha8787|talk]]) 16:41, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
:::: Given your advocacy of a specific point here and the ideological prevalence of pro-Israeli viewpoint in WikiProject Israel in Russian Wikipedia (as is not surprising, we literally have administrators from the occupied territories who downplay atrocities committed by Israel there), this falls under [[:w:Wikipedia:Votestacking|votestacking]] even if we apply complete AGF here. You specifically chose the WikiProject Israel, according to your words. [[user:stjn|stjn]]<sup>[[:ru:user:stjn|[ru]]]</sup> 17:13, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
::::: Your idea that WikiProject Israel on Russian Wikipedia might be biased and ignoring atrocities doesn't sit right with me. Let's focus on unity and respect.{{pb}}If you fancy it, you could start up [[:w:ru:Проект:Палестина|WikiProject Palestine]]. If it existed, I'd have penned my thoughts there. [[User:Aisha8787|Aisha8787]] ([[User talk:Aisha8787|talk]]) 17:33, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
:::::Who are these so-called "administrators from the occupied territories"? I'm not aware of any. [[User:Desertdweller1983|Desertdweller1983]] ([[User talk:Desertdweller1983|talk]]) 19:44, 20 April 2024 (UTC)
:::::: To my awareness, only one administrator from the Russian-language Wikipedia, of Jewish heritage, has commented here. Furthermore, he resides not in Israel but across the Atlantic, in a nation untouched by occupation. It's a clear case of misinformation and a stark manifestation of anti-Semitism. [[User:Aisha8787|Aisha8787]] ([[User talk:Aisha8787|talk]]) 04:43, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
::::::: Point to me where I have said that that administrator commented in this discussion before you try to hurl slurs about my ‘anti-semitism’, @[[User:Aisha8787|Aisha8787]]. I never did. I mentioned that this is the atmosphere we have to work with in Russian Wikipedia. Staunch advocacy of pro-Israeli views in violation of NPOV, PROV etc. because there are zero pro-Palestinian voices and zero oversight from non-involved parties. And you are currently responding to one of the most biased pro-Israeli users in Russian Wikipedia, in case you need any evidence for that. [[user:stjn|stjn]]<sup>[[:ru:user:stjn|[ru]]]</sup> 19:58, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
:{{Vk}} I agree with {{u|Fjmustak}}. I believe that the statement aligns with the inclusion policy, because the purpose is to augment the WMF's response and support for the volunteer community in Gaza and it asks it to support the community in Gaza and ensure the impartiality of content about Palestinian genocide. We have to support our Palestinian colleagues and an open letter is a very good way to point out attention in the precarious situation our Palestinian colleagues face. They need our support. [[User:NikosLikomitros|NikosLikomitros]] ([[User talk:NikosLikomitros|talk]]) 20:09, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
: {{remove}} because it politicizes Wikipedia and politicizes humanitarian issues. Probably the statement would be ok if it didn't mention Israel. Mentioning Israel and not mentioning the other side Israel is fighting against (It's Hamas, and not the Palestinian people) makes the statement miss the point and distort the truth. In addition, "you have chosen the side of the oppressor" again means it condemns Israel without explanations, which is manipulative. Let us keep politics out of Wikipedia. [[User:Rijikk|Rijikk]] ([[User talk:Rijikk|talk]]) 20:31, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
:: "Everyone dead in Gaza is actually Hamas" is a claim so outlandish that I am not surprised that only a Russian Wikipedia community member is pushing that bogus line, [[user:Rijikk|Rijikk]]. (Speaking as a Russian Wikipedia community member myself.) [[user:stjn|stjn]]<sup>[[:ru:user:stjn|[ru]]]</sup> 23:05, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
:::But... Rijikk did not make such a claim! Here is his statement, right before everyone’s eyes. But that's exactly how the [[en:big lie|big lie]] works. [[User:Nicoljaus|Nicoljaus]] ([[User talk:Nicoljaus|talk]]) 23:34, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
:::Just another example of weird misinterpretation. Sorry, stjn, I didn't expect it from you. [[User:Rijikk|Rijikk]] ([[User talk:Rijikk|talk]]) 00:03, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
:::''Everyone dead in Gaza is actually Hamas'' — they didn't make such a statement. [[User:Горизонт событий|Горизонт событий]] ([[User talk:Горизонт событий|talk]]) 04:11, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

{{collapse top|I really can't take any time off, wow. Further off-topic discussion (i.e. not focused on arguments for or against deleting the page against Meta's inclusion policy) will result in a partial block from this page, at a minimum. – [[User:Ajraddatz|Ajraddatz]] ([[User Talk:Ajraddatz|talk]]) 13:40, 21 April 2024 (UTC)}}
:{{comment}} "everything I don't like is politics, everything that I like is not politics" --[[User:Sleeps-Darkly|Sleeps-Darkly]] ([[User talk:Sleeps-Darkly|talk]]) 00:38, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
::what about the human tragedy. <span style="border:3px outset;border-radius:9pt 0;padding:1px 7px;background:linear-gradient(to bottom right, blue,#00FF7F)">[[User:Zulf|<span style="color:#fff;font:1em Lucida Sans">🍃Zulf🍃</span>]]</span><sup>[[User talk:Zulf|''talk'']]</sup> 06:55, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
::Almost, but not quite. Rather, it's simply very convenient to force 'neutrality' and political silence upon the public when you violate the genocide convention. [[User:AP295|AP295]] ([[User talk:AP295|talk]]) 11:47, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
::: Genocide has a precise legal definition outlined in the CPPCG, and the allegation must be substantiated in an international court. As of now, this has not been proven. The International Court of Justice (ICJ) has not determined that Israel is engaging in "genocide", but has only issued an order for Israel to take "[https://www.icj-cij.org/sites/default/files/case-related/192/192-20240126-ord-01-00-en.pdf all measures within its power]" '''to prevent''' genocide. [[User:Aisha8787|Aisha8787]] ([[User talk:Aisha8787|talk]]) 12:17, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
::::Of course they would say that. Just like how Putin is taking all measures in his power to save ethnic Russians from genocide by Ukrainian Nazis. [[User:Dronebogus|Dronebogus]] ([[User talk:Dronebogus|talk]]) 12:21, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
::::: Stop the demagoguery. The International Criminal Court has issued an [[:w:en:International Criminal Court arrest warrants for Vladimir Putin and Maria Lvova-Belova|arrest warrant for Putin]], and Russia has been designated as a terrorist state by numerous countries. Similarly, Hamas has rightfully been designated as a terrorist organisation by a multitude of nations, including Australia, Argentina, New Zealand, Canada, Israel, the UK, and the US. [[User:Aisha8787|Aisha8787]] ([[User talk:Aisha8787|talk]]) 12:29, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
:::::: And the International Court of Justice [https://www.hrw.org/news/2024/01/26/gaza-world-court-orders-israel-prevent-genocide issued provisional measures against Israel] demanding from it to protect Palestinians in Gaza from genocide from Israeli actions. But I guess we can pick and choose which international courts are deserving to be followed and which are not. [[user:stjn|stjn]]<sup>[[:ru:user:stjn|[ru]]]</sup> 13:17, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
::::::: Thank you for the link. I aim to write in good faith, sharing what I know to the best of my ability. You shared a link to the HRW article, which references the [https://www.icj-cij.org/sites/default/files/case-related/192/192-20240126-ord-01-00-en.pdf Application of the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide in the Gaza Strip]. ''"The Court considers that, with regard to the situation described above, Israel must, in accordance with its obligations under the Genocide Convention, in relation to Palestinians in Gaza, take all measures within its power to prevent the commission of all acts within the scope of Article II of this Convention..."''{{pb}}While I am not a legal expert and do not possess extensive knowledge of jurisprudence, I fail to find any statements akin to "Israel is committing genocide and we must destroy it." [[User:Aisha8787|Aisha8787]] ([[User talk:Aisha8787|talk]]) 14:15, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
:::::::: I don’t think anyone here said that Israel ‘must be destroyed’, so I don't think that should be discussed in this RfD. [[user:stjn|stjn]]<sup>[[:ru:user:stjn|[ru]]]</sup> 16:20, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
::::The purpose of the interim ruling was to decide whether the charges were plausible enough that action needed to be taken immediately, which they were. South Africa's application contains a large amount of substantive evidence. [[User:AP295|AP295]] ([[User talk:AP295|talk]]) 12:35, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
:::::Every party is considered innocent until proven guilty. Therefore, the notion of Israel committing genocide remains, at best, an opinion until proven otherwise. According to [[WP:NPOV]], we should "'''avoid stating opinions as facts'''". [[User:Desertdweller1983|Desertdweller1983]] ([[User talk:Desertdweller1983|talk]]) 20:09, 20 April 2024 (UTC)
::::::The suggestion that one should wait until after the fact rather than take action or speak against presently ongoing war crimes is entirely untenable. I'll restate the following ''facts'', which were part of a collapsed conversation above but which I trust are on-topic: Part of a journalist's question at the 1/11/24 state department briefing "''You have evidence of industrial-style killing. The South African legal team presented 20 minutes straight of statements on the record by Israeli leadership expressing the intent to commit genocide, for example, referring to the Palestinian population as Amalek. ''".[https://www.state.gov/briefings/department-press-briefing-january-11-2024/] An article on the UNICEF website reads "''More than 13,000 children have died since bombardment began on Oct. 7, "an astronomically horrifying number," said UNICEF Executive Director Catherine Russell.''"[https://www.unicefusa.org/stories/more-13000-children-reported-dead-gaza-famine-nears] And from ohchr.org, "''Gazans now make up 80 per cent of all people facing famine or catastrophic hunger worldwide, marking an unparalleled humanitarian crisis in the Gaza Strip amid Israel’s continued bombardment and siege, according to UN human rights experts.''"[https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2024/01/over-one-hundred-days-war-israel-destroying-gazas-food-system-and] [[User:AP295|AP295]] ([[User talk:AP295|talk]]) 22:01, 20 April 2024 (UTC)
:::::::I suggest to stop distorting the facts is all. Here's the [https://www.news24.com/news24/world/news/in-full-professor-malcolm-shaw-says-sas-genocide-case-misrepresents-the-facts-and-is-wrong-in-law-20240116 full quote] from Netanyahu: "In the last couple of days, I have met with our soldiers in the bases, in the field, in the north and in the south. Remember what Amalek has done to you. We remember, and we are fighting". Whoever claims that he was "referring to the Palestinian population as Amalek" is inventing facts. [[User:Desertdweller1983|Desertdweller1983]] ([[User talk:Desertdweller1983|talk]]) 22:47, 20 April 2024 (UTC)
::::::::What about the 13,000 dead children? [[User:AP295|AP295]] ([[User talk:AP295|talk]]) 23:20, 20 April 2024 (UTC)
::::::::: Please take a moment to read through the link I've provided above: "[https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/how-gaza-health-ministry-fakes-casualty-numbers How the Gaza Ministry of Health Fakes Casualty Numbers]". The Gaza Ministry of Health is under the thumb of a terrorist group, fabricating casualty numbers. If you choose to buy into the data churned out by Islamist terrorists, that's your prerogative, but those seeking factual information steer clear of such skewed figures. [[User:Aisha8787|Aisha8787]] ([[User talk:Aisha8787|talk]]) 04:47, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
::::::::::I'll quote South Africa's report, "''Since 7 October 2023, Israel has engaged in a large-scale military assault by land, air and sea, on the Gaza Strip (‘Gaza’), a narrow strip of land approximately of 365 square kilometres – one of the most densely populated places in the world.48 Gaza — home to approximately 2.3 million people, almost half of them children — has been subjected by Israel to what has been described as one of the “heaviest conventional bombing campaigns” in the history of modern warfare.49 By 29 October 2023 alone, it was estimated that 6,000 bombs per week had been dropped on the tiny enclave.''" That's 6,000 bombs per week dropped in area one tenth the size of long island, whose population is/was nearly half children. [[User:AP295|AP295]] ([[User talk:AP295|talk]]) 05:18, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
::::::::::: I'd rather not stray off-topic here. If you're engaging, feel free to contribute to Wikipedia in any language you're fluent in, and perhaps address these statistics in relevant articles. However, blindly trusting the words of Islamist terrorists – who endorse the brutalization of innocent civilians, the [https://news.un.org/en/sites/news.un.org.en/files/atoms/files/Mission_report_of_SRSG_SVC_to_Israel-oWB_29Jan_14_feb_2024.pdf raping of women], and the [[:w:en:Kidnapping of the Bibas family|abduction of children]] – is simply naïve.{{pb}}As someone knowledgeable in religious studies, I can affirm that this conflict has deep historical roots, originating from the Jews' rejection of Prophet Muhammad. There's extensive scholarly literature available on this topic, detailing how, during his reign, between 600–900 Jews tragically lost their lives. (See [https://archive.org/details/tabarivolume08_201911/page/n59/mode/2up تاريخ الرسل والملوك Tārīkh al-Rusul wa al-Mulūk, vol 8]). [[User:Aisha8787|Aisha8787]] ([[User talk:Aisha8787|talk]]) 05:36, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
::::::::::::What are Israel's casualty estimates? I should hope they have a better answer than "only 8,000 children" or "no comment", if you're going to say the numbers are completely false.[[User:AP295|AP295]] ([[User talk:AP295|talk]]) 05:53, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
::::::::::::: If Hamas hadn't been using children as human shields or hiding among civilians, there would've been fewer casualties. They aim to increase losses and portray themselves as "victims" to manipulate Western public opinion. It's a terrorist tactic and psychological manipulation. I suggest checking out [https://stratcomcoe.org/cuploads/pfiles/hamas_human_shields.pdf NATO reports], and if you're too busy to dive into the details, just watch this video: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lmo0ZHioJ4E YouTube, Hamas using children as human shields]. [[User:Aisha8787|Aisha8787]] ([[User talk:Aisha8787|talk]]) 06:00, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
::::::::::::::Here in the USA, if a criminal were to hide behind a child hostage, authorities presumably would not just kill them both. I guess there was Waco, but at any rate it's not acceptable. [[User:AP295|AP295]] ([[User talk:AP295|talk]]) 06:28, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
::::::::::::::And what would South Africa stand to gain by falsely charging Israel with violating the genocide convention? [[User:AP295|AP295]] ([[User talk:AP295|talk]]) 06:47, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
:: {{outdent|12}} Alright, mate, let's break it down. Firstly, comparing law enforcement situations in the US to the complexities of warfare in conflict zones like Gaza is a bit like comparing apples and oranges, innit? In urban combat situations, where terrorists use civilians as human shields, it's a bloody nightmare for everyone involved. While the priority is always to minimize civilian casualties, these terrorists don't play by the rules, do they? They use innocent lives as bargaining chips, making it a right challenge for authorities to respond without collateral damage. And yeah, there've been blunders like Waco, but that doesn't justify or excuse the reprehensible tactics employed by Islamist terrorists. So yeah, not acceptable... [[User:Aisha8787|Aisha8787]] ([[User talk:Aisha8787|talk]]) 06:58, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
:::"''Urban combat situations''"? Gaza was carpet bombed. They can see it from satellite photos. This article was back in December: "''The United Nations said on Tuesday it had used its satellite analysis agency UNOSAT to determine that 18 per cent of Gaza’s infrastructure had been destroyed since the October attacks. This includes at least 60 per cent of all housing units according to the UN’s Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs and 50 per cent of all infrastructure in the north of the strip. <nowiki>[...]</nowiki> More than 77 per cent of Gazan hospitals are now non-operational according to the World Health Organisation and nine out of 10 Palestinians do not eat every day according to the World Food Programme.''"[https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/gaza-israel-war-bombing-experts-b2465750.html] [[User:AP295|AP295]] ([[User talk:AP295|talk]]) 07:12, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
:::: Gaza's been hammered, no denying that. But let's not lose focus here. Hamas, they're the real villains. Using innocent folk as shields, it's low, innit? We gotta back our Jewish mates in Israel. They're just tryna defend themselves against these terrorists.{{pb}}And let's call it like it is – anti-Semitism's rife, and it ain't on. We gotta stand tall against that rubbish, show some solidarity with our Jewish brothers and sisters. They deserve better, plain and simple. [[User:Aisha8787|Aisha8787]] ([[User talk:Aisha8787|talk]]) 07:22, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
:::::While Hamas has done questionable actions here, you are presenting a heavily pro-Israeli skewed viewpoint which is somewhat unhelpful for a Meta-Wiki discussion. --<span style="font-family:BlinkMacSystemFont">[[User:SHB2000|SHB2000]] <small>([[User talk:SHB2000#top|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/SHB2000|contribs]])</small></span> 07:32, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
:::::: I delve into Islam daily, and my hubby's an [[w:en:Ex-Muslims|ex-Muslim]]. Can't fathom why you'd launch such an attack on me, love. [[User:Aisha8787|Aisha8787]] ([[User talk:Aisha8787|talk]]) 07:41, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
:::::::Using condescending language isn't helping your case. --<span style="font-family:BlinkMacSystemFont">[[User:SHB2000|SHB2000]] <small>([[User talk:SHB2000#top|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/SHB2000|contribs]])</small></span> 08:55, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
:::::That's all you've got, is it? Fine then. [[User:AP295|AP295]] ([[User talk:AP295|talk]]) 07:49, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
:::::: My dear, what have you got, besides the drivel from Islamist terrorists? These folks murder and assault, and yet you put your faith in them. [[User:Aisha8787|Aisha8787]] ([[User talk:Aisha8787|talk]]) 07:55, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
:::::: It's mind-boggling, really. Putting your faith in the words of those who engage in such despicable acts like murder and [https://news.un.org/en/story/2024/03/1147217 rape]. Backing such barbarity against innocent folks, especially the Jewish community, is not just morally corrupt but also downright intellectually feeble. [[User:Aisha8787|Aisha8787]] ([[User talk:Aisha8787|talk]]) 08:06, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
:::::::Ahem, [[Meta:Civility]]. --<span style="font-family:BlinkMacSystemFont">[[User:SHB2000|SHB2000]] <small>([[User talk:SHB2000#top|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/SHB2000|contribs]])</small></span> 09:06, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
:::::::: I pen this with utmost respect, dear. My voice emerges from the depths of my own harrowing experience as a survivor of rape. Yet, your message, I must say, lacks any semblance of ethical integrity. [[User:Aisha8787|Aisha8787]] ([[User talk:Aisha8787|talk]]) 09:22, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
:::::::::I'm sorry you had to experience what you did, but that does not give you a license to violate the civility policy. --<span style="font-family:BlinkMacSystemFont">[[User:SHB2000|SHB2000]] <small>([[User talk:SHB2000#top|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/SHB2000|contribs]])</small></span> 10:25, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
::::::::::They're wrong because their statement is a meaningless ad hominem, not per se because it's uncivil. [[User:AP295|AP295]] ([[User talk:AP295|talk]]) 10:45, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
:::::::::::That too. --<span style="font-family:BlinkMacSystemFont">[[User:SHB2000|SHB2000]] <small>([[User talk:SHB2000#top|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/SHB2000|contribs]])</small></span> 10:52, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
::::::::::::The point is that a sound argument need not lean on policy like [[w:WP:CIVILITY]]. It only debases an argument. [[User:AP295|AP295]] ([[User talk:AP295|talk]]) 11:14, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
{{collapse bottom}}

:{{Keep}} It doesn't violate wikimedia policies [[User:Raedfares|Raedfares]] ([[User talk:Raedfares|talk]]) 07:32, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
* Just a general comment - please stop the personal attacks. Clearly there are perspectives on both sides of the irl conflict here, and those aren't going to be properly addressed or considered as part of a Meta deletion request. Please keep comments focused on reasons to include or delete the page in question, and refrain from replying to other users unless absolutely necessary. Future replies that are uncivil / personal attacks or off topic will be removed. – [[User:Ajraddatz|Ajraddatz]] ([[User Talk:Ajraddatz|talk]]) 13:21, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
*:@[[User:Ajraddatz|Ajraddatz]] Yes, I see it has become an arena for debate. <span style="border:3px outset;border-radius:9pt 0;padding:1px 7px;background:linear-gradient(to bottom right, blue,#00FF7F)">[[User:Zulf|<span style="color:#fff;font:1em Lucida Sans">🍃Zulf🍃</span>]]</span><sup>[[User talk:Zulf|''talk'']]</sup> 18:42, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

:{{Comment}} why is this the subject of debate and spread everywhere and other issues?🤔 <span style="border:3px outset;border-radius:9pt 0;padding:1px 7px;background:linear-gradient(to bottom right, blue,#00FF7F)">[[User:Zulf|<span style="color:#fff;font:1em Lucida Sans">🍃Zulf🍃</span>]]</span><sup>[[User talk:Zulf|''talk'']]</sup> 19:14, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
*: Ah, I see it continued while I was at work. I've collapsed some of the most egregious off-topic discussions (and yes, I understand you believe they are relevant, but this is just beyond unhelpful at this point). Keep your remarks to your own comment please people. – [[User:Ajraddatz|Ajraddatz]] ([[User Talk:Ajraddatz|talk]]) 21:18, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
*::Unhelpful to whom? [[User:AP295|AP295]] ([[User talk:AP295|talk]]) 22:32, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
*::And yes, I do believe they are relevant, directly relevant, (at least those I was involved in) as they concern the probable truth/falsehood of information in the page nominated for deletion. It is inherently a political discussion. The [[w:WP:TALK|official behavioral guidelines]] state the following: "''Off-topic posts: Your idea of what is off topic may differ from what others think is off topic, so be sure to err on the side of caution. Collapse. If a discussion goes off topic (per the above subsection § How to use article talk pages), editors may hide it using <nowiki>{{Collapse top}}/{{Collapse bottom}}</nowiki> or similar templates. This normally has the effect of ending the off-topic discussion while allowing people to read it by pressing the "show" link. Involved parties must not use these templates to end a discussion over the objections of other editors.''" The metawiki guidelines here [https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Template:Collapse] seem to imply that this portion of wikipedia's policy is to be observed on meta as well. <s>Also, assuming the template documentation is still accurate, collapsed portions can't be viewed in mobile browsers either. </s> Mobile mode seems to work for me, though the template disables the reply button within the collapsed portion, and it would be extremely tedious to use the main edit button on a mobile browser, I imagine. At the very least, you should change the title to "Discussion" instead of "Off-topic discussion", because my discussions are obviously not off-topic. (Why else would you have felt the need to preempt my response with "and yes, I understand you believe they are relevant"?) [[User:AP295|AP295]] ([[User talk:AP295|talk]]) 01:45, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

*{{Comment}}: I wanted to share that in the [[Discord|Wikimedia Community Discord]] server, the moderators shut down any discussion about the [[w:Israel-Palestine conflict|Israel-Palestine conflict]] (including the [[w:Israel-Hamas war|Israel-Hamas war]]), because of the serious amount of moderation it requires to allow discussion of this topic. This conflict should seriously be discussed as if it is under sanction. Before posting something unrelated one should think whether it is really worth the risk of a block or having the comment deleted; [[w:WP:Disruptive editing]]. This topic has been discussed countless times at [[w:WP:ARBCOM]] and simply reiterating propaganda that isn't verifiable is counterproductive. There are outlets where one can talk about the conflict without causing disruption to operations on Meta or Wikipedia. Any person commenting should take a look at [[w:WP:ILIKEIT]] or [[w:WP:IDONTLIKEIT]]; neither of these are valid reasons for keeping or deleting a page. I don't think political reasons are a good reason why content should be removed, except when it is [[w:polemic|polemic]] or [[w:discriminatory|discriminatory]] or likely to bring the project into [[wikt:disrepute|disrepute]]. I commend the efforts of Meta stewards and administrators here to keep this discussion focused on Meta policy rather than on personal opinions. <span style="font-variant: small-caps;">[[User:Awesome Aasim|A]][[User_talk:Awesome Aasim|a]][[special:contribs/Awesome Aasim|s]][[Special:EmailUser/Awesome Aasim|i]][[Special:Log/Awesome Aasim|m]]</span> 19:31, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
*:If anything is likely to bring the project into disrepute, it's censoring discussion about ongoing war crimes and violations of the genocide convention. Your phrasing, ''the Israel-Hamas war'', may well be obsolete in a year or two. All of my comments are relevant to the discussion, though some have been collapsed, along with some comments made by others. Whom are you addressing, with your insinuations? While I am in favor of keeping, I don't necessary like the page, though I agree with the general thrust of it. [[User:AP295|AP295]] ([[User talk:AP295|talk]]) 03:00, 20 April 2024 (UTC)
*::I can understand that there are real people affected by this escalation in the conflict; I don't doubt it. Also, where are you getting the idea that we are {{talk quote inline|censoring discussion}}? Administrators, moderators, and stewards are empowered by the Wikimedia community or their relevant subcommunities to deal with disruptive editing. In fact, a few months ago, [[w:Special:PermanentLink/1197462753#Arbitration_motion_regarding_PIA_Canvassing|the enwiki Arbitration Committee]] took action on canvassing within that specific topic area. All I was highlighting is that this topic area has been subject to disruptive edits and POV pushing and propaganda in the past, and that it is important to keep comments here based on [[Meta:Policy]] and not just one's feelings. <span style="font-variant: small-caps;">[[User:Awesome Aasim|A]][[User_talk:Awesome Aasim|a]][[special:contribs/Awesome Aasim|s]][[Special:EmailUser/Awesome Aasim|i]][[Special:Log/Awesome Aasim|m]]</span> 04:42, 20 April 2024 (UTC)
*:::"''I wanted to share that in the Wikimedia Community Discord server, the moderators shut down any discussion about the Israel-Palestine conflict''"
*:::"''Also, where are you getting the idea that we are censoring discussion?''"
*:::[[User:AP295|AP295]] ([[User talk:AP295|talk]]) 05:18, 20 April 2024 (UTC)
:{{Keep}}: Everything has already been said, I agree with keeping it --[[File:Flag of Santiago de Cali.svg|25px]] [[User:Remux|Remux]] - [[User talk:Remux|Ĉu mi povas helpi vin iel?]] 21:12, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
*{{keep}} Meta isn't censored and this is not Wikipedia to maintain neutrality; it's frustrating to hear people using Wikipedia policies to justify deleting this page. --<span style="font-family:BlinkMacSystemFont">[[User:SHB2000|SHB2000]] <small>([[User talk:SHB2000#top|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/SHB2000|contribs]])</small></span> 23:51, 20 April 2024 (UTC)
{{comment}} I really don’t see the point in keeping this open any longer. The minimum deadline has passed and a majority of “delete” votes are canvassed from hewiki and ruwiki editors who have rarely or never edited metawiki and largely don’t provide valid arguments. Subtracting those and factoring in all the users who have supported the statement but not voted as of now, consensus is clearly “keep”. [[User:Dronebogus|Dronebogus]] ([[User talk:Dronebogus|talk]]) 00:37, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

:+1. It would be interesting to see how this discussion looked if you filtered out everyone who hasn't made over 100 edits to Meta-Wiki over the last 12 months. --<span style="font-family:BlinkMacSystemFont">[[User:SHB2000|SHB2000]] <small>([[User talk:SHB2000#top|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/SHB2000|contribs]])</small></span> 01:02, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
::Meta is not the special province of those editors who hang their hats here. Most editors are active at their home wikis and are voicing here since they found the open letter here. When you make weak arguments like that (or cherry picking the he-wiki editors) you prove that you are only interested in forwarding your political propaganda, rather than fairly representing the Wikimedia movement. As for arguments made, many above had stated how slanted this open letter is, beyond the point that this political posturing does not belong here. Do you not lament the weak claims about canvassing and NOTCENSORED, Dronebogus, or can you only see this through your own partisan filter? <span class="nowrap" style="font-family:copperplate gothic light;">[[User:Chris troutman|<span style="color:#345">Chris Troutman</span>]] ([[User talk:Chris troutman|<span style="color:#345">talk</span>]])</span> 01:47, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
:::Because [[w:WP:CANVASS|canvassing]] is disruptive behavior and is visibly evident in this thread. --<span style="font-family:BlinkMacSystemFont">[[User:SHB2000|SHB2000]] <small>([[User talk:SHB2000#top|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/SHB2000|contribs]])</small></span> 01:56, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
:::Your summary is a rather selective one. You won't mind if I add that ''many above have made quite strong arguments in favor of keeping the article''? Or better yet, let's avoid weasel words like ''many above'' altogether. [[User:AP295|AP295]] ([[User talk:AP295|talk]]) 02:34, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
::Presuming that this RfD is not judged as a plebiscite, but rather on the merit and truth or falsehood of each argument, it should not make much difference. That's the responsibility of whoever makes the decision. I agree that it should be kept and I believe I've made sound arguments. [[User:AP295|AP295]] ([[User talk:AP295|talk]]) 02:17, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
::Did a count and assuming I didn't mess up my counts anywhere, 33 of the remove votes come from users with fewer than 100 edits or IPs, but only 11 keep votes from users who fall into the same category. --<span style="font-family:BlinkMacSystemFont">[[User:SHB2000|SHB2000]] <small>([[User talk:SHB2000#top|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/SHB2000|contribs]])</small></span> 05:22, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
:::That's really quite insulting. I have made less than 100 edits to meta in five years, but my 36,000+ edits to other projects entitles me to just as much of a vote here as anyone else. There is nothing wrong with cross-posting notices on other wikis, and everyone from every wiki is welcome at meta. Honestly, wtf. [[User:Levivich|Levivich]] ([[User talk:Levivich|talk]]) 16:24, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
::::I’d change “less than 100 edits” to “obviously canvased” (i.e. red-linked users based on hewiki or ruwiki) because of Meta’s unique status. [[User:Dronebogus|Dronebogus]] ([[User talk:Dronebogus|talk]]) 05:44, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
:::::Yeah, that's a better way of putting it. Add canvassed users from arwiki, too. <span style="font-family:BlinkMacSystemFont">[[User:SHB2000|SHB2000]] <small>([[User talk:SHB2000#top|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/SHB2000|contribs]])</small></span> 09:38, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
:It is worth remembering that we don't treat deletion debates as a plebiscite, where 50% +1 vote "wins". Deletion debates, like most other things in the Movement, are on the basis of ''consensus''.
:There is clearly no consensus here, irrespective of whether or not we exclude any votes that might have been canvassed (and, to be clear, I am deliberately not expressing any opinion on whether they were canvassed or whether that is inappropriate).
:On the English Wikipedia, if there is no consensus to delete, the outcome defaults to Keep. Is that also the case here on Meta? — [[User:OwenBlacker|OwenBlacker]] ([[User talk:OwenBlacker|Talk]]; he/him) 05:40, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
:: Responding to this and other comments re: canvassing, Meta-Wiki is a bit of a unique place in that nobody really calls Meta "home" - most Meta users are editors somewhere else and come to Meta to do specific things. As such, we typically don't see canvassing in the same way as other projects, and sometimes even like it when a wider cross-section of the (global) community shows up than usual. But the closing admin will take explicit/slanted canvassing into account when closing, and it is also typical for the arguments of users who are Meta regulars to be weighed more heavily than others when closing these type of discussions. On the topic of default outcomes, you (OwenBlacker) are correct that consensus is generally required to change the status quo, so for this discussion there would need to be consensus to delete otherwise the page would be retained. I have held off closing myself as I have done some (not particularly effective) attempts at moderating the discussion, and I think it would be better for a different admin to close it. But if no other admins have within a day or so I will. – [[User:Ajraddatz|Ajraddatz]] ([[User Talk:Ajraddatz|talk]]) 06:15, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
:::The problem is that the authors of this deeply biased statement called it "joint". In order for it to remain, there must be consensus in this discussion that the statement is truly a "joint" statement by Wikimedia organizations and individual, and does not reflect the views of only part of the community (with strong objections from another part of the community). It is necessary either to prepare a new statement that truly reflects consensus, or to explicitly notify the difference in views on such a one-sided statement. [[User:Nicoljaus|Nicoljaus]] ([[User talk:Nicoljaus|talk]]) 13:27, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
:::: I really, really hesitate to say this, because I expect any such discussion would just devolve into the same useless political drivel that this has... but that's a topic best discussed on the page's talk page. – [[User:Ajraddatz|Ajraddatz]] ([[User Talk:Ajraddatz|talk]]) 13:40, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
::::The statement is clearly attributed to the signing parties. The WMF and Wikimedia affiliates have never been required to obtain on-wiki consesus to post any statement on their websites or Meta. There's years of precedents and no policy that prevents it. [[User:MarioGom|MarioGom]] ([[User talk:MarioGom|talk]]) 16:23, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
:::::I think this would be expressed much more clearly by renaming the title to “Statement by Certain Wikimedia Organizations and Individuals on Palestine.” [[User:Nicoljaus|Nicoljaus]] ([[User talk:Nicoljaus|talk]]) 17:49, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
::::::Maybe, but there is no policy requiring that. And this is a deletion discussion. Renaming of the page can be discussed elsewhere, usually in the talk page. [[User:MarioGom|MarioGom]] ([[User talk:MarioGom|talk]]) 17:53, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
:::::::Bold-Revert-Descuss. We will remove this bold statement and discuss with interested parties how it can be published on Meta. Possibly with a changed title. Possibly with changes to the text. [[User:Nicoljaus|Nicoljaus]] ([[User talk:Nicoljaus|talk]]) 18:07, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
::::::::BRD is meant for edition, not deletion. And I don't think it would be appropriate to bold edit a signed affiliate statement. Just like you would not edit an official WMF statement once it has been finalized. [[User:MarioGom|MarioGom]] ([[User talk:MarioGom|talk]]) 19:35, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
:"majority of “delete” votes are canvassed from hewiki and ruwiki editors" — how did you determined that votes were canvassed? Were any keep votes canvassed?
:How do you determine that keep arguments are not valid?
:Why don't we cross keep votes with not valid arguments? [[User:BilboBeggins|BilboBeggins]] ([[User talk:BilboBeggins|talk]]) 16:53, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
::There’s what appears to be a canvassing campaign going on at those wikis and an outsize number of redlinked users who either have hebrew/russian names or mainly edit those wikis. And yes there are invalid keep votes but these seem to be good faith “vote without argument” cases, not coordinated bloc voting. [[User:Dronebogus|Dronebogus]] ([[User talk:Dronebogus|talk]]) 05:59, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
{{comment}} a lot of delete voters are complaining about it not discussing Hamas atrocities or supporting Israeli hostages and victims of the 7th of October attacks; why don’t they create a joint statement addressing those things rather than targeting a statement they disagree with? Because as discussed this clearly isn’t about “politicization” or “bias” because nobody complained about supporting Ukraine or opposing SOPA. [[User:Dronebogus|Dronebogus]] ([[User talk:Dronebogus|talk]]) 01:12, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
:I found out about this open letter only because some editor wanted to advertise it on en-wp. I visit Meta a couple times a year and only when I become aware of a need to do so. I quashed the word going out on en-wp but did the word get out on other wikis? Yes. Did these same editors know about Ukraine or SOPA? Maybe. It's entirely possible they knew about some statement on Ukraine and found it not worth the trouble so they ignored it. This is about politicization and bias for me: I nominated this for deletion on principle. Is everyone else opining because of political tribalism? Maybe. Does that make their arguments invalid? Unless they said that they do or don't like the letter, not necessarily. I oppose all slacktivism and the politically-compromised editors who engage in it. Your whataboutism is the same sort of weak argument like all the others you posit. <span class="nowrap" style="font-family:copperplate gothic light;">[[User:Chris troutman|<span style="color:#345">Chris Troutman</span>]] ([[User talk:Chris troutman|<span style="color:#345">talk</span>]])</span> 14:30, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
::Maybe my argument is whataboutism, but it’s at least better than what-if-ism like ''Did these same editors know about Ukraine or SOPA?'' or ''It's entirely possible they knew about some statement on Ukraine and found it not worth the trouble so they ignored it.'' or ''Is everyone else opining because of political tribalism?'' My case is based on precedent; yours is based on speculation. [[User:Dronebogus|Dronebogus]] ([[User talk:Dronebogus|talk]]) 03:04, 24 April 2024 (UTC)
:{{remove}} Per nominator, Wikimedia should not take sides in conflicts. I could understand it if the statement called for the ceasefire used a more inclusive language and mentioned the loss of life and hardships on both sides (which is not to say that they are equivalent). I see no benefit in releasing such a statement and do see drawbacks. The layperson doesn't know and doesn't care what the difference between Wikipedia and Wikimedia is. If they see this in the news they would see it as us taking sides and thus becoming less trustworthy. [[User:Alaexis|Alaexis]] ([[User talk:Alaexis|talk]]) 21:15, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
::My view of Wikimedia optics has always been “screw it”. People believe whatever they want to believe about Wikimedia, and Wikimedia can’t win for losing in the court of public opinion. In any case the only people who would latch onto flimsy material like this are Larry Sanger and his wacky far-right buddies, and since when do we care what ''they'' think? [[User:Dronebogus|Dronebogus]] ([[User talk:Dronebogus|talk]]) 03:13, 24 April 2024 (UTC)
:::The majority of people identifying as Republicans use Wikipedia [https://d3nkl3psvxxpe9.cloudfront.net/documents/Wikipedia_poll_results.pdf]. Would you prefer them to switch to some kind of echo chamber? [[User:Alaexis|Alaexis]] ([[User talk:Alaexis|talk]]) 13:59, 24 April 2024 (UTC)
::::I don’t know what that’s supposed to mean. [[User:Dronebogus|Dronebogus]] ([[User talk:Dronebogus|talk]]) 04:40, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
::::I didn't know Wikimedia only consisted of US editors. Fascinating, I know, right? --<span style="font-family:BlinkMacSystemFont">[[User:SHB2000|SHB2000]] <small>([[User talk:SHB2000#top|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/SHB2000|contribs]])</small></span> 05:39, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
:::::I'm not a US editor myself, so I'm certainly aware of that. It's u:Dronebogus who brought up "Larry Sanger and his wacky far-right buddies" and suggested we shouldn't care what they think.
:::::My point was that a lot of people of various shades of "right" use Wikipedia and that actions that would hurt the perception of Wikipedia's reliability and neutrality without having any clear benefits for the community are detrimental to the project. [[User:Alaexis|Alaexis]] ([[User talk:Alaexis|talk]]) 09:45, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
::::::They already think Wikipedia is full of the dreaded LIBERAL BIAS because it agrees with the academic consensus on trans people existing and Trump losing in 2020. This isn’t going to change that. [[User:Dronebogus|Dronebogus]] ([[User talk:Dronebogus|talk]]) 10:48, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
:{{remove}}. We have already seen in this discussion that the main in-wiki result of this initiative is the deepening mutual distrust and disrespect between users of different opinions, to the extent of blatant accusations and offences towards the whole wikis including my home ru.wiki. Outside of Wikimedia projects the statement from Wikimedians would not raise so huge interest, but the message this situation delivers to Wikimedians themselves is totally misleading. [[User:Андрей Романенко|Andrei Romanenko]] ([[User talk:Андрей Романенко|talk]]) 20:56, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
::I agree that this discussion is understandably rather heated, but hear me out when I say it’s mostly because it was nominated in the first place, then two ''clear-cut'' cases of canvassing occurred at Ruwiki and Hewiki (no offense to uninvolved users even if I previously made some hyperbolic comments about “everyone from ruwiki showing up” above). While I have seen civil and reasonable deletion votes like yours I mostly see a bunch of people who ordinarily wouldn’t even know meta existed showing up ''en masse'' to make inflammatory strawman arguments. Discussion on the [[Talk:Joint Statement on Palestine|talk page]] has been largely unremarkable. [[User:Dronebogus|Dronebogus]] ([[User talk:Dronebogus|talk]]) 22:06, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
::: There is important difference between fighting for free speech and fighting for free knowledge. Wikimedia projects are about the former rather than the latter. Freedom of speech includes the right of people to say and sign unpleasant statements, controversial statements, strongly divisive statements. However, for the purpose of providing free knowledge these statements might be disruptive and harmful. I would dream of a statement on this topic so well balanced to be rather unifying than divisive. But the authors of this statement opted for the text with no mention of the words "Hamas" and "hostages", i.e. for the overtly partisan statement attracting one part of Wikimedia community and alienating another part of it. They are free to speak this way. But let them do it elsewhere. [[User:Андрей Романенко|Andrei Romanenko]] ([[User talk:Андрей Романенко|talk]]) 14:07, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
::::I’d bet that if there was a statement that said “Hamas bad, bring back the hostages” nobody would nominate it for deletion. [[User:Dronebogus|Dronebogus]] ([[User talk:Dronebogus|talk]]) 05:29, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
::::Plus I can easily see a bad precedent being formed here: there’s obviously not a consensus to delete, but an admin could decide this is too “divisive” and delete it. This could send a shockwave through the community that says “supporting Palestine is not allowed”. [[User:Dronebogus|Dronebogus]] ([[User talk:Dronebogus|talk]]) 05:38, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
::::: So you have to blame those people who authored this deeply divisive and harmful statement and not those who are responsible for peaceful atmosphere within the Wikimedia community. Nobody had prevented the authors from balancing this part of the statement with some other words, it was their choice. This sort of manipulations should not be allowed here. [[User:Андрей Романенко|Andrei Romanenko]] ([[User talk:Андрей Романенко|talk]]) 12:20, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
::::::Why don’t you go and demand [[2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine]] add “we’re sorry for all the bad things happening to Russians too!” if you’re concerned about Wikimedia being biased about an armed conflict. [[User:Dronebogus|Dronebogus]] ([[User talk:Dronebogus|talk]]) 14:24, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
:::: Requiring a statement against a genocide to mention the entire historical context is, to say the least, weird. I don’t think a statement that condemns 7 October attack by Hamas is required to have the condemnation of Israeli settler colonialism, Nakba and the occupation, and the statement condemning the continued genocide in Gaza should not require the ‘just’ ‘causes’ of such genocide to be listed. [[user:stjn|stjn]]<sup>[[:ru:user:stjn|[ru]]]</sup> 07:08, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
:::::Agree, prefacing a condemnation of genocidal actions with an “[[W:Unite the Right|on both sides]]” qualifier waters down the message to the point of meaninglessness. You wouldn’t start a condemnation of the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki by saying “the Japanese Army committed war crimes so the US was technically justified in melting thousands of civilians and giving them devastating lifelong health problems” [[User:Dronebogus|Dronebogus]] ([[User talk:Dronebogus|talk]]) 08:05, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
: {{Keep}} This is a very reasonable and practical letter. As the erosion of free speech and public commons occurs globally, the necessity for volunteers of one of the largest digital commons to opine is clear. The genocide being perpetrated by Israeli military is very much also information warfare, and Wikimedia is involved, whether we like it or not. Let's speak clearly without stuttering. [[User:Shushugah|Shushugah]] ([[User talk:Shushugah|talk]]) 22:36, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
* {{Keep}} There is no reasonable reason to delete it! keep it [[User:Rah24af|Rah24af]] {{undated|22:41, April 25, 2024 (UTC)}}
:{{remove}} Per Krd, DGtal, Swatjester and others. —&nbsp;'''[[User:Draceane|Draceane]]'''&nbsp;<sup>[[User talk:Draceane|talk]]</sup><sub style="margin-left:-20px">[[Special:Contributions/Draceane|contrib.]]</sub> 19:33, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
:{{remove}} I am opposed to Wikimedia being involved in politics except when Wikimedia is directly affected (e.g. SOPA). The appearence of a conflict of interest has the potential to undermine our projects precieved neutrality as well as actual neutrality by making disenting voices feel as if they are unwelcome here. Wikimedia is not the whole world, and individual Wikimedians should fight for what they believe in outside of the Wikimedia universe. Inside Wikimedia we should be working on coming together to produce accurate and neutral free knowledge projects. [[User:Bawolff|Bawolff]] ([[User talk:Bawolff|talk]]) 22:02, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
::The best way to make dissenting voices feel unwelcome is to delete them. Wikimedia is not the whole world, but it’s ''in'' the real world, not a vacuum. And in the real world supporting Palestine is definitely on the “dissent” side. You may think deleting this is a vote for neutrality but it’s really a vote for westernized homogeny. [[User:Dronebogus|Dronebogus]] ([[User talk:Dronebogus|talk]]) 05:49, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
:::Dissenting just means the other side. By definition a statement cannot be on the dissenting side, since dissenting just means the opposite side than whatever view is being expressed. Regardless, that doesn't matter much. The point is that there are sides and the politicization of wikimedia is counterproductive to our goals. We aren't here to save the world, we are just here to document it. It is for historians and philosophers to decide who was right and who was wrong. [[User:Bawolff|Bawolff]] ([[User talk:Bawolff|talk]]) 08:51, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
::::I think you’re getting a bit too much into semantics and epistemology, at least for my [https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/035/549/cover4.jpg tiny monkey brain] [[User:Dronebogus|Dronebogus]] ([[User talk:Dronebogus|talk]]) 09:04, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
: {{Keep}} keep it as you keep Zionists' content [[User:Hammam AbuAlrob|Hammam AbuAlrob]] ([[User talk:Hammam AbuAlrob|talk]]) 04:27, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
: {{Comment}} It is over a week since the discussion deadline and I would suggest the presence of this debate is no longer serving any useful purpose — it is very clear we are not going to find a consensus of any kind here. I realise I have !voted here, so I'm not unbiased, but can an uninvolved administrator please close this deletion discussion? [[Meta:Snowball|We don't have the "Snowball clause" here]], but it seems obvious that consensus is not possible here. — [[User:OwenBlacker|OwenBlacker]] ([[User talk:OwenBlacker|Talk]]; he/him) 11:15, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
::I agree, and would like to add that the most compelling argument for deletion— the unnecessary division the page is causing —is pointless because you can’t, and won’t, undo that acrimony by deleting the page. The genie is out of the bottle; killing it isn’t going to put it back. [[User:Dronebogus|Dronebogus]] ([[User talk:Dronebogus|talk]]) 14:20, 27 April 2024 (UTC) Keep Tareq fares
: {{Keep}} [[User:Bayan thawabta|Bayan thawabta]] ([[User talk:Bayan thawabta|talk]]) 08:08, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
: {{Keep}} [[User:هبة سليم|هبة سليم]] ([[User talk:هبة سليم|talk]]) 08:11, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
: {{Keep}} [[User:LanaJaas|LanaJaas]] ([[User talk:LanaJaas|talk]]) 08:12, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
:{{keep}} [[User:Mishkas Hijaz|Mishkas Hijaz]] ([[User talk:Mishkas Hijaz|talk]]) 08:14, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
:{{keep}}[[User:روتانا مبارك|روتانا مبارك]] ([[User talk:روتانا مبارك|talk]]) 08:17, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
::Was there canvassing involved just then? I find it strange how there have been 5 new low-edit Meta accounts that !voted Keep within the timespan of 9 minutes. (I also voted Keep, FTR, but I care about correct practices followed more than anything in regards to this specific discussion) --<span style="font-family:BlinkMacSystemFont">[[User:SHB2000|SHB2000]] <small>([[User talk:SHB2000#top|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/SHB2000|contribs]])</small></span> 09:35, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
:::I sincerely hope what happened on hewiki and ruwiki did not just happen on arwiki... (all 5 accounts have only primarily edited arwiki + Wikidata) --<span style="font-family:BlinkMacSystemFont">[[User:SHB2000|SHB2000]] <small>([[User talk:SHB2000#top|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/SHB2000|contribs]])</small></span> 09:37, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
::::It inevitably happened. Which is why we close this before someone starts canvassing Lingua Franca Nova Wikivoyage and High Gothic Wikinews [[User:Dronebogus|Dronebogus]] ([[User talk:Dronebogus|talk]]) 11:42, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
:::::Agreed. We're well past the deadline to the point where we're having a repeat of events. --<span style="font-family:BlinkMacSystemFont">[[User:SHB2000|SHB2000]] <small>([[User talk:SHB2000#top|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/SHB2000|contribs]])</small></span> 11:52, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
:::::: It's highly unlikely that these users coincidentally came in at the same time to "vote" three weeks or so after this baseless RfD was initiated. These new editors are probably just as uninformed about the RfD process as those that were sent here from hewiki and ruwiki. They appear to be part of a student group working on the same projects (such as an International Women's Day activity) that may have learned about this and gotten together and decided to comment here (rather than in response to widespread canvassing). I echo the sentiment above that it is pointless in keeping this RfD open any longer. --[[User:Fjmustak|Fjmustak]] ([[User talk:Fjmustak|talk]]) 19:12, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
:::::::I think mindless bloc voting to counterbalance canvassing is basically the same as canvassing. If someone experienced here speaks Arabic I’d suggest they explain to the group of student editors that this behavior is disruptive and doesn’t solve anything even if in good faith [[User:Dronebogus|Dronebogus]] ([[User talk:Dronebogus|talk]]) 09:48, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
: {{Keep}} [[User:نديم فارس|نديم فارس]] ([[User talk:نديم فارس|talk]]) 10:43, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
: {{keep}} -[[User:Theklan|Theklan]] ([[User talk:Theklan|talk]]) 16:05, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
: {{Keep}} - [[User:Sahaquiel9102|Sahaquiel9102]] ([[User talk:Sahaquiel9102|talk]]) 19:07, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

* Closing as '''no consensus to delete'''. At this point, I don't think new ideas are entering the discussion, and we are well past the original close deadline. Looking numerically, even when cutting out obviously canvassed users or looking only at the comments of experienced Meta users does not find a clear numerical consensus on either side. Looking at the arguments, most fall short of explicitly identifying this page as outside of [[Meta:Inclusion policy|Meta's scope]], and while there are some that clearly articulate a rationale for deleting the page, there does not appear to be widespread agreement on those arguments. Ultimately this page will likely continue to exist regardless of the outcome - either here or on an affiliate / other site. Absent consensus to delete, it can remain here. If people still have concerns about the content of the page or the idea of the Foundation being encouraged to take a side in political conflicts, the places to discuss are the page's talk page and [[Requests for comment]], respectively. – [[User:Ajraddatz|Ajraddatz]] ([[User Talk:Ajraddatz|talk]]) 19:17, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

{{archive bottom}}
{{section resolved|[[User:Pppery|* Pppery *]] [[User talk:Pppery|<sub style="color:#800000">it has begun</sub>]] 00:05, 30 April 2024 (UTC)}}

=== [[Help:Captcha]] ===
=== [[Help:Captcha]] ===
No longer used per discussion at [[MediaWiki talk:Createacct-imgcaptcha-help]]. [[User:Pppery|* Pppery *]] [[User talk:Pppery|<sub style="color:#800000">it has begun</sub>]] 21:26, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
No longer used per discussion at [[MediaWiki talk:Createacct-imgcaptcha-help]]. [[User:Pppery|* Pppery *]] [[User talk:Pppery|<sub style="color:#800000">it has begun</sub>]] 21:26, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
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:::lgtm. — [[User:Xaosflux|<span style="color:#FF9933; font-weight:bold; font-family:monotype;">xaosflux</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:Xaosflux|<span style="color:#009933;">Talk</span>]]</sup> 20:09, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
:::lgtm. — [[User:Xaosflux|<span style="color:#FF9933; font-weight:bold; font-family:monotype;">xaosflux</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:Xaosflux|<span style="color:#009933;">Talk</span>]]</sup> 20:09, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
*'''Redirect''' to either [[Special:Captcha/help]] or [[CAPTCHA exemptions]], as I think it's still a probable search term. --<span style="font-family:BlinkMacSystemFont">[[User:SHB2000|SHB2000]] <small>([[User talk:SHB2000#top|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/SHB2000|contribs]])</small></span> 00:50, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
*'''Redirect''' to either [[Special:Captcha/help]] or [[CAPTCHA exemptions]], as I think it's still a probable search term. --<span style="font-family:BlinkMacSystemFont">[[User:SHB2000|SHB2000]] <small>([[User talk:SHB2000#top|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/SHB2000|contribs]])</small></span> 00:50, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
*'''Redirect''' per SHB2000 --[[User:TenWhile6|TenWhile6]] <small>([[User_Talk:TenWhile6|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[SWMT]])</small> 15:22, 13 May 2024 (UTC)


=== Wikimedia Summit 2020/Thematic, regional, language-specific meetups ===
=== [[Please do not edit this page]] ===
<small>Discussion open until at least 10 May 2024 (UTC)</small>
Unfunny silliness. Apparently survived RfD in 2006, but I still don't see the point. [[User:Pppery|* Pppery *]] [[User talk:Pppery|<sub style="color:#800000">it has begun</sub>]] 17:50, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
* {{la|Wikimedia Summit 2020/Thematic, regional, language-specific meetups}}
Disputed speedy deletion and blanking tempt me to ask here whether to keep. --[[User:Jusjih|Jusjih]] ([[User talk:Jusjih|talk]]) 00:52, 2 May 2024 (UTC)


:'''Delete''' what the hell is this supposed to be? [[User:Dronebogus|Dronebogus]] ([[User talk:Dronebogus|talk]]) 03:14, 24 April 2024 (UTC)
*Huh? Why can't we just keep this for historical reference? [[User:Gnom|Gnom]] ([[User talk:Gnom|talk]]) 07:12, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
*Why is this being raised ''four years'' after the attempted blanking + speedy delete tag that was declined? I see no reason to delete. – [[User:Ajraddatz|Ajraddatz]] ([[User Talk:Ajraddatz|talk]]) 13:15, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' – I'm sorry, but what? --<span style="font-family:BlinkMacSystemFont">[[User:SHB2000|SHB2000]] <small>([[User talk:SHB2000#top|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/SHB2000|contribs]])</small></span> 13:45, 24 April 2024 (UTC)
* '''Delete''' If the WMDE people wan't this deleted I see no reason not to let them delete it. [[User:Pppery|* Pppery *]] [[User talk:Pppery|<sub style="color:#800000">it has begun</sub>]] 14:35, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
*:While I have it in mind, do we really want to encourage newcomers to game the system to increase their edit count? Add that to my list of reasons for deleting this page. <span style="font-family:BlinkMacSystemFont">[[User:SHB2000|SHB2000]] <small>([[User talk:SHB2000#top|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/SHB2000|contribs]])</small></span> 05:58, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
*'''Delete''': It's nonsense.. [[User:Justarandomamerican|Justarandomamerican]] ([[User talk:Justarandomamerican|talk]]) 10:41, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' per Pppery --[[User:TenWhile6|TenWhile6]] <small>([[User_Talk:TenWhile6|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[SWMT]])</small> 15:21, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
* I tend to be one of the only defenders of old essay pages here... but this is too much for me haha. '''Delete'''. – [[User:Ajraddatz|Ajraddatz]] ([[User Talk:Ajraddatz|talk]]) 15:01, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
*'''Delete''': its 2024. --[[User:TenWhile6|TenWhile6]] <small>([[User_Talk:TenWhile6|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[SWMT]])</small> 20:16, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' <span style="border:3px outset;border-radius:9pt 0;padding:1px 7px;background:linear-gradient(to bottom right, blue,#00FF7F)">[[User:Zulf|<span style="color:#fff;font:1em Lucida Sans">🍃Zulf🍃</span>]]</span><sup>[[User talk:Zulf|''talk'']]</sup> 12:03, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
----
'''Deleted'''. Clear consensus. [[User:AramilFeraxa|<strong><span style="color:sienna; font-weight:bold">AramilFeraxa</span></strong>]] ([[User talk:AramilFeraxa|<span style="color:#BB0FFF">Write to me!</span>]]) 16:00, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
{{section resolved|1=[[User:AramilFeraxa|<strong><span style="color:sienna; font-weight:bold">AramilFeraxa</span></strong>]] ([[User talk:AramilFeraxa|<span style="color:#BB0FFF">Write to me!</span>]]) 16:00, 30 April 2024 (UTC)}}


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''Submit your template deletion request at the bottom of '''this''' section.''
=== [[Template:Short description]] ===
Pointless on Meta which doesn't have Wikibase configured properly for it. Also [[Template:SDcat]] and [[Module:SDcat]] and [[:Category:Page with short description]]. [[User:Pppery|* Pppery *]] [[User talk:Pppery|<sub style="color:#800000">it has begun</sub>]] 17:16, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
* '''Delete''', not needed, not helpful here, not used --[[User:TenWhile6|TenWhile6]] <small>([[User_Talk:TenWhile6|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[SWMT]])</small> 15:23, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

== Categories ==
== Categories ==
''Submit your category deletion request at the bottom of '''this''' section.''
''Submit your category deletion request at the bottom of '''this''' section.''

Revision as of 03:07, 15 May 2024

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WM:RFD
This page hosts local (i.e., Meta-Wiki) requests for page deletion. For requests for speedy deletion from global sysops or stewards, see Steward requests/Miscellaneous. Any language may be used on this page. Before commenting on this page, please read the deletion policy, in particular the criteria for speedy deletion, and the inclusion policy. Please place the template {{RFD}} on the page you are proposing for deletion, and then add an entry in an appropriate section below. As a courtesy, you may wish to inform the principal authors of the page about the request. After at least one week, an administrator will close and carry out the consensus or majority decision.

Articles that qualify for speedy deletion should be tagged with {{delete}} or {{delete|reason}}, and should not be listed here. (See also speedy deletion candidates.) Files with no sources should be tagged with {{no source}} and need not be listed here, either. To request undeletion, see #Requests for undeletion. See Meta:Inclusion policy for a general list of what does not belong on the Meta-Wiki.

Previous requests are archived. Deletion requests ({{Deletion requests}}) can be added to talk page to remember previous RfDs.

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Pages

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Help:Captcha

No longer used per discussion at MediaWiki talk:Createacct-imgcaptcha-help. * Pppery * it has begun 21:26, 22 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Think that where it is still called, it goes to what seems to be the original source of this text in MediaWiki:Captchahelp-text (which loads in to Special:Captcha/help - the link that is actually on the CAPTCHA). Special:WhatLinksHere/Help:Captcha does show some uses and not sure if this could be linked in from elsewhere. Perhaps just replace all the text with int: MediaWiki:Captchahelp-text ? — xaosflux Talk 18:24, 23 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I've fixed the one link at CAPTCHA exemptions which was transcluded in 100 pages. There don't seem to be any others. * Pppery * it has begun 18:59, 23 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
lgtm. — xaosflux Talk 20:09, 23 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Wikimedia Summit 2020/Thematic, regional, language-specific meetups

Discussion open until at least 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Disputed speedy deletion and blanking tempt me to ask here whether to keep. --Jusjih (talk) 00:52, 2 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Templates

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Template:Short description

Pointless on Meta which doesn't have Wikibase configured properly for it. Also Template:SDcat and Module:SDcat and Category:Page with short description. * Pppery * it has begun 17:16, 3 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Categories

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Files

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Redirects

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Requests for undeletion

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