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WP:RUSUKR sanctions violation

Unfam (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) - non-EC edits of 25 May 2024 Kharkiv missile strikes page [1], [2] despite warnings [3] , [4] , [5] . Non constructive comments with personal attacks in talk [6] [before the warning]. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 10:40, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

• All I want is for a single video that proves russian claims about hypermarket used as an ammo storage being either linked or uploaded, in any way you like. It is as constructive as it can be. Also, I don't understand how it is a personal attack. Unfam (talk) 10:48, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

  Two (arguably three if you include a typo fix) clear bright-line breaches of RUSUKR, as well as a brand new editor wading in calling another editor a "hypocrite" in a CT area talk page. I think we have generally viewed this pretty dimly? Daniel (talk) 12:39, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

  I might be wrong, but deleting evidence in favour of one side or another due to, in my opinion, personal bias, is much worse than anything I ever did. Unfam (talk) 13:55, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

• Have indefinitely ECP-ed the article per sanctions. No comments on the content, removed or otherwise, have yet to evaluate those. – robertsky (talk) 13:35, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
• Yet another weaponization of ANI. This is a recurring pattern from ManyAreasExpert. He has already weaponized it against me some 2 or 3 times, as Cinderella157 will probably remember. MAE seems to use all his knowledge, including Wikipedia policies knowledge, to corner and tilt people into making mistakes and rash decisions/comments. Almost as if he laid a trap. I think this is a much bigger problem than a new editor's attempt to edit and balance a contentious page section in good faith. Look, Unfam was very constructive in that talk page discussion and clearly tried to make careful and balanced suggestions of edits, which I thought were reasonable and implemented them myself to represent the Russian POV. It all changed when MAE stepped in.

Why do people seem to loose their minds when interacting with MAE, me included sometimes? Probably because he recurrently uses the theme/narrative of Russian propaganda, Russian unreliable sources, Russian misinformation, Russian war crimes, Western MSM is more reliable, there is no Western propaganda, there is no Ukrainian propaganda, Ukrainian officials can say whatever they want in Western sources and that is always considered superior to whatever the Russians say in Telegram, etc. This kind of argument is infuriating since it's already very difficult to show/represent the Russian POV in anything without the typical Western negative labels. Many Russian sources are already blacklisted and, often, one must translate the allowed sources to find the relevant info. Covering the other (Ukrainian/Western) POV, on the other hand, is so much easier and less stressful. Just Google anything and you'll be almost ensured to be flooded with English anti-Russian articles with varying degree of Russophobia. Why am I saying all this? To show how tense and one-sided this whole RUSUKR debate is, and to show how frustrating it is when we're spat with the "Russian propaganda" argument whenever we try to voice their POV.

But this would be the first step of the trap. As the other editor is getting triggered, MAE counteracts with edits using notoriously pro-Ukrainian/pro-Western sources, injects unfavorable background only to one side, injects wikilinks that are flooded with unfavorable content towards one side, etc. Then, in the heat of the argument, he warns about sanctions and civility as he goes all soft, complaining that being called a "hypocrite" is a PA (which it kinda is, but give me a break, look at what you do. does it actually hurt because you know it's true? or was is legitimately offensive?). By the way, Unfam's retraction and response was quite concerted afterwards; good! However, within those hot minutes Unfam made a technical mistake of directly editing a sanctioned page while I was away. And now the "witch hunt" is on...

And just a few days ago, MAE potentially tried to bait me in a related article talk page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:2024_Kharkiv_offensive#Losses_claims_in_the_infobox. He contested one of my recent edits here; I then boldly reverted it mostly based on the POV argument he used (that you can't put Ukrainian and Russian claims side by side because Ukrainian claims are much more 'accurate' in his mind), despite me knowing better arguments in favor of MAE's edit (i.e. that the claims span different time intervals, thus kinda apples to oranges); he then warns me of a policy; I then read it and understood he was right and his tone was fine, then I basically retracted my revert here and pretty much conceded in the talk page here with the OK emoji, dispute should be mostly solved; however, he then poked/baited me with this sarcastic comment, trying to act all tough and superior as if he was in a position to demand submission. I didn't fall for it, fortunately. Or, alternatively, he simply didn't understand my comment and saw the talk page before the article and consequently wouldn't see the retraction edit. Anyways, more and more tension which never occurred, for example, with Super Dromaeosaurus in Talk:2024 Kharkiv offensive#War crimes and misconduct (look at the difference in tone of the dispute resolution).

Concluding, I wanted to formally request that MAE be prevented from opening new ANI tickets against editors when attempting to solve contentious content disputes, especially when only MAE is showing concern in the talk page and especially during the early stages of discussion (it was literally a discussion of a few minutes and MAE was already potentially asking for sanctions/restrictions on this editor). This request also accounts that MAE has systematically made content edits that, afaik, exclusively favor the Ukrainian POV in the past. And also considering that MAE seemingly abuses the enforcement of Wikipedia policies without good intent, i.e. in a mission to corner and intimidate whoever attempts to represent/voice the actual Russian POV in articles.

As for Unfam, he has already been plenty warned and has shown understanding and restraint. Alexis Coutinho (talk) 13:40, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

This is contentious topic. Asked to adhere to Wikipedia rules, you gave no affirmative response [7] and continued [8] adding anonymous tg channels as sources. Removing reliable sources at the same time [9] . You did the same before - User talk:Alexiscoutinho#May 2024 - propaganda telegram in contentious topics . Stop using tg channels and Russian state media as sources, stop equating POVs reported by reliable sources with propaganda reported by Russian state sources, stop attacking the opponent when asked to adhere to Wikipedia rules, and everything will be fine. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 13:53, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

But meduza isn't a reliable source. Unfam (talk) 14:03, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

So you are adding anon tg channels to the article [10] , and are saying that Meduza is not reliable. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 14:09, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Meduza is a reliable source. Ymblanter (talk) 16:42, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

It is funded by american government. Then any russian news website should also be reliable sources. Unfam (talk) 12:38, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

First, it is not funded by the American government. Second, there are many reliable sources funded by the American government. Third, Russian government sources are not reliable because they consistently publish disinformation, not because they are funded by the Russian government. Fourth, the fact that you write this shows very clearly that you need an indefinite topic ban from any Russian and European topics. Ymblanter (talk) 16:09, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

you gave no affirmative response what?! how is "OK" and an effective retraction edit in the article not an affirmative response? Your sarcastic question was provocative. Did you really want me to "lick your boots"? and continued adding why the "and" connection here? I contributed by adding a missing POV, and was even thanked for it. Even though the execution wasn't ideal, the intention was fine. Removing reliable sources at the same time Don't distort this, I removed blatant POV pushing, like you did in that mini Aftermath section of the battle of Bakhmut, and I would remove it again if I could go back in time. Even pro-Ukrainian Super Dro acknowledged that those wikilinks were a stretch. You did the same before the situations were completely different, and as I explained above, the intent of the latest episode was fine. Russian state media as sources I'm still not sold on the reasoning behind a blanket rejection. stop equating POVs reported by reliable sources with both POVs were reported by reliable sources as you showed. with propaganda reported by Russian state sources this is just your POV leaking through; doesn't even try to hide the lack of acknowledgement of Western and Ukrainian propaganda. stop attacking the opponent when asked to adhere to Wikipedia rules, and everything will be fine. well, one gets what one sows. Whenever you base your concerns/disputes on one-sided propaganda claims, you'll get unconstructive discussions. Give neutral comments/requests, like you sometimes do, and we'll actually get somewhere without wasting arguments. The same applies to other editors: don't expect them to be all cooperative when you start calling the shots, deleting stuff, substituting it with oppositely biased sources, calling the other's info propaganda and then threatening through ANI. Alexis Coutinho (talk) 15:57, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

he recurrently uses the theme/narrative of ... there is no Western propaganda, there is no Ukrainian propaganda, ...
This is plain wrong. Please limit the user from making such false accusations. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 14:05, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Don't worry, ManyaAreasExpert, I won't do this any more. I've made you stop vandalasing the article with your edits, and stopped you from hiding the evidence. Now the page is locked, so nothing can be changed. Even though there is still no video linked or uploaded, as I asked, but at least it is mentioned. This is the best anyone could do, with people like you around. Now you can continue crying about personall

attacks or what not, I won't bother you any more. Unfam (talk) 14:16, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Do you want me to retract that? Because I never saw you acknowledging those. Therefore, it appeared like so. Did I get carried away? Alexis Coutinho (talk) 16:01, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

You are making false accusations because I haven't acknowledged something you think I should? Please stop discussing editors, this is not constructive and is a WP:PA: Comment on content, not on the contributor. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 16:34, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Comment on content, not on the contributor Well, this whole thread started with a "comment on contributor" when it was actually mostly based on a content dispute... And yeah, this discussion has been pretty milked already. Alexis Coutinho (talk) 16:43, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

this whole thread started with a "comment on contributor"
This is not true. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 16:45, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Indeed they misrepresented a particular source to push a particular POV.[11] I am not sure if this is due to a poor understanding of English but this is not the first time. Mellk (talk) 15:46, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Where is the misrepresentation? ManyAreasExpert (talk) 15:49, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Moser does not say that it should be called Old Ukrainian. The alt name is already well established, therefore calling it anachronistic in wikivoice based on one person's opinion is the very definition of POV pushing. Mellk (talk) 15:53, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Moser does not say that it should be called Old Ukrainian
... and Moser did said what?
is the very definition of POV pushing
... but your initial claim was about misinterpretation. Should we abandon it, and discuss the new claim instead? ManyAreasExpert (talk) 15:59, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

In the quote you provided (shown in the diff), he refers to Old East Slavic and mentions the term Old Ukrainian if Old East Slavic "can deliberately be given an anachronistic name". If you cannot understand what the source says, then this raises concerns. Mellk (talk) 16:07, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

That's the correct representation of Moser. Note how the quote was added with my edit to avoid any misinterpretation.

Now, where is the misinterpretation? ManyAreasExpert (talk) 16:11, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

He did not say that Old Ukrainian is how the language should be called (i.e. this should be included as an alt name), and other editors said the same thing on the article talk page. So, this is just you who misunderstood what he said. Again, for such edits, WP:CIR applies, and it is clear from your other edits that you do not have a good enough command of the English language. Mellk (talk) 16:14, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

... but Moser did said that "Old Russian" is anachronistic, and that's what my edit was. Moser did also said that compared to anachronistic Old Russian, Old Ukrainian is more appropriate, and that's what my edit was. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 16:21, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

I have just told you that Old Russian is a well established name and this is supported in the rest of the article, you changed this to "anachronistic" based on one person's opinion, while you included the term "Old Ukrainian" as an alt name as the "more appropriate" name for Old East Slavic. We are just going in circles here so I will leave it at that. Mellk (talk) 16:24, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Not "more appropriate" then Old East Slavic. More appropriate then Old Russian, supported by Moser. Provided with quote to avoid misinterpretation. Where is the misinterpretation here. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 16:29, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

This is off-topic deflection by Mellk. Getting back to the actual serious issue - no, anonymous posts on Telegram are no RS, never will be, and anyone who tries to use them repeatedly despite warnings has no business editing this topic area. Volunteer Marek 05:13, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

No, I just added my experience to the response to claims of POV pushing. Of course, as Manyareasexpert started this discussion, his own conduct in the topic area can be reviewed as well. Since you claim that I am deflecting, doesn't your topic ban include not commenting on editors? Mellk (talk) 05:23, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

I do not have a topic ban here nor any restriction on commenting on editors, especially at AN/I where the *whole point* is to discuss editor behavior. Please stop trying to derail the discussion by trying to shift the focus to others. You were doing it with Manyareasexpert before - this discussion was about the Kharkiv Missle Strike article and you tried to muddy up the waters by bringing up some completely irrelevant edits at… “Old East Slavic” - now youre trying to do it with me. Volunteer Marek 05:27, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

I see, the restriction is personal comments on articles and article talk pages only. I also responded to Alexis Coutinho's reply which is about Manyareasexpert's conduct. As you said, this is about editor behavior, so I am not sure why you replied to me to complain about this. I added my input, if you do not have anything to add to this, reply to someone else instead. Mellk (talk) 05:39, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

I’m not under any such restriction either. You should probably drop these attempts at derailing the discussion now, since that too can be seen as disruptive. Volunteer Marek 05:46, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

Next time do not reply to my comment about a particular issue if all you are going to do is make nonsensical accusations of derailing. Mellk (talk) 05:49, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

Specifically, this right here is textbook example of using clearly non-RS sources for POV. Last time this happened Alexiscouthino pleaded ignorance of rules. Obviously one can’t use that excuse twice for same offense. Volunteer Marek 05:25, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

No. That was only a first attempt to represent an official POV in good faith, without ever trying to distort or suppress the other (Ukrainian) POV, in an article that was clearly one-sided and was even pushing untrue statements with wikivoice. Alexis Coutinho (talk) 10:00, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

This is real POV pushing, and this... Alexis Coutinho (talk) 10:28, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

I mean, adding academic sources is POV pushing. And replacing TASS and tg links with Meduza and RFEL is POV pushing. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 10:37, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

I mean, adding academic sources is POV pushing. You circumvented two entire RfC discussions by selectively writing in the first sentence of the Aftermath, which was directly linked by the infobox result, the result you preferred, while completely ignoring the other analyses, thus bypassing the spirit the "Russian victory - See Aftermath" link and mischaracterizing the result in your favor.

And replacing TASS and tg links with Meduza and RFEL is POV pushing. I wasn't clear. The TASS replacement was ok and I even thanked you for it. The injected background from RFEL was POV pushing. I could have similarly thrown in mentions of previous war crimes by Ukrainians and instances where they used civilian infrastructure to store military hardware to push the Russian point across. But I didn't, as selectively adding background that is not connected to the incident by current sources is POV pushing. Alexis Coutinho (talk) 10:49, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

while completely ignoring the other analyses
Six academic sources were provided with my edit. Which academic source was ignored?

The injected background from RFEL was POV pushing. I could have similarly thrown in mentions of previous war crimes by Ukrainians and instances where they used civilian infrastructure to store military hardware to push the Russian point across. But I didn't, as selectively adding background that is not connected to the incident by current sources is POV pushing.
Let's say it again. The RFEL article Russian Forces Hit Hypermarket In Deadly Assault On Kharkiv, Surrounding Villages (rferl.org) is not connected to the 25 May 2024 Kharkiv missile strikes. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 11:00, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

Which academic source was ignored? Don't play dumb. You know exactly what you omitted. RFEL article propaganda outlet whitewashed as RS. Alexis Coutinho (talk) 11:31, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

Another personal attack due to lack of argument. No academic sources were omitted.

propaganda outlet whitewashed as RS.
... but your initial claim was selectively adding background that is not connected to the incident, should we abandon it now? ManyAreasExpert (talk) 11:37, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

Another personal attack due to lack of argument. No academic sources were omitted. I stand by it, you're being disingenuous. The situation was obvious. There was an RfC which overwhelmingly sides with "Russian victory" not "Russian pyrrhic victory". There was already a big paragraph discussing both interpretations of the result of the battle in the analysis section which you and I helped to construct. Yet you thought that wasn't enough. You wanted to put "pyrrhic victory" with ALL the spotlight. Since you couldn't write "pyrrhic victory" directly in the infobox you decided to say it in the first sentence linked by the infobox result. You infatuated the citation by adding the most qualifiers you could and flooded it with refs. You even put that "pyrrhic victory" statement before the true aftermath paragraph to make sure the reader was convinced it was "pyrrhic victory". And of course you didn't bother covering the other analysts which considered the battle a "Russian victory" as was done in that larger paragraph of the Attrition section.

your initial claim was selectively adding background What background? If you are talking about the secondary explosions, that's literally part of the incident itself. abandon it now? Well, in the article it was already abandoned... so maybe... Alexis Coutinho (talk) 12:02, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

Since we have determined that no academic sources were ignored, we can conclude there is a consensus among them regarding "pyrrhic victory" or such. And yes, this academic consensus POV can be preferred against what's written in news media. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 12:07, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

You can't dare say there's any consensus given your edit pattern. Until you show how you sampled those academic sources for a representative array, I won't rule out that you simply cherry-picked those sources. Alexis Coutinho (talk) 12:12, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

Asked "which academic source was ignored", received none. What are we talking about here? ManyAreasExpert (talk) 12:15, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

You have been plenty explained. If you still can't understand, that's your problem. Unsubscribing from this thread right now as it's becoming unhealthy and toxic for both of us. Ping me if someone requests an important reply. I really don't want to argue with you again in ANI. I repeat my original request that I don't think MAE is qualified to use ANI against other editors in RUSUKR war topics due to being too involved. I won't complain if you argue the same to me, that I'm not qualified to raise ANI tickets in this area. Let cool heads prevail. Alexis Coutinho (talk) 12:38, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

The situation is getting a bit out of control as now we have editors arguing straight up that it’s ok to use non-reliable sources as long as these “represent the Russian viewpoint” [12]. I know I’ve been away from this topic for awhile but no one alerted me to the fact that apparently WP:RS got revoked for this topic area in my absence. Volunteer Marek 05:37, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

MAE's conduct hasn't been flawless, but I definitely think Alexiscoutinho is far closer to a community sanction given the continued, disruptive use of Telegram sources after being told, repeatedly and explicitly, that the community does not consider Telegram to be reliable source. CoffeeCrumbs (talk) 07:51, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

disruptive use of Telegram mind elaborating?

At least I don't weaponize ANI, admit mistakes when I make them, and am not a professional entitled POV pusher. Alexis Coutinho (talk) 09:36, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

am not a professional entitled POV pusher
I'm sorry, yes, another ANI request Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1149#Academic sources removal in favor of trickster POV pushing, WP:BATTLEGROUND regarding your removal of academic POV in favor of Russian Prigozhin POV. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 10:04, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

I'm sorry, yes, another... Are you apologizing or attacking? You already lost that case due to distortions. Why are you bringing it up again? I already indirectly mentioned it in my first text wall. Alexis Coutinho (talk) 10:33, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

Let's have a look at one of the latest edits [13] . So the source Summary for 24–27 May 2024 (until 8:00 UTC+3) — Teletype (citeam.org) says
on the basis of video, yet in your text it becomes based on videos - where's plural in the source?

video with pops similar in sound to a secondary detonation - note they use similar to, yet in your text it becomes - recording background sounds of smaller secondary explosions - a fact.

When an ammunition depot detonates, as a rule, some shells fly in different directions, hitting neighboring buildings, but in this case nothing of the kind is observed, yet your text says which was purportedly not observed - where's purportedly in the source? ManyAreasExpert (talk) 10:55, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

where's plural in the source? the fact that there isn't just one eye witness video about the aftermath of the strike. video with pops similar in sound to a secondary detonation - note they use similar to, yet in your text it becomes - recording background sounds of smaller secondary explosions don't see much problem with that. Would need to rewatch the videos. But I guess the text could me amended/improved if someone thought is was important. nothing of the kind is observed, yet your text says which was purportedly not observed just because the limited evidence there is doesn't show such collateral damage, doesn't mean there wasn't any such damage. The affected area was big and who knows what happened, say, in the back of the hypermarket? "Purportedly" seems adequate here when absolute certainty can't be achieved. If we were to report what such sources say at face value, then there would be no need for investigations. Because CIT is God and know everything, knows the absolute truth.

Complaining about these now feels like nit-picking. Alexis Coutinho (talk) 11:46, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

So you misinterpret the source based on your own thoughts. Are we allowed to do this in Wikipedia?

Meanwhile, another telegram link returned [14] after reading on how they are inappropriate. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 11:52, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

Are we allowed to do this in Wikipedia? Are we allowed to POV push in Wikipedia like you did? Meanwhile, another telegram link returned stand by it with the caveat in the edit summary. Alexis Coutinho (talk) 12:05, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

Are we allowed to do this in Wikipedia? Are we allowed to POV push in Wikipedia like you did?
An unproven accusation is a personal attack and is a good argument to justify your misinterpretation of sources. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 12:10, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

Go on softy boy. You're lucky I don't fixate so much on the unproven accusations you did to me. At this point I'm just getting baited over and over by MAE. And fucking up my real life. Alexis Coutinho (talk) 12:16, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

Calling someone "softy boy" is a pretty blatant insult, ie personal attack. Bad move. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 18:01, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

That was an absolutely atrocious revert. Using an unreliable source "because it's needed" is absurd. Luckily, it was quickly reverted. Does the community have to stop you from using Telegram against clear consensus? It seems you won't stop on your own. CoffeeCrumbs (talk) 14:21, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

MAE's conduct hasn't been flawless
I'm sorry you feel so, and I want my edits to be improved, please do tell how can I do so, thanks! ManyAreasExpert (talk) 09:44, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

I don't think pressuring Alexiscoutinho to give a yes/no question about their reliable source use was really productive, since ultimatums like that rarely are. Nothing I would think is sanctionable, especially in a heated argument. Remember, being correct doesn't mean one has to raise the temperature. CoffeeCrumbs (talk) 10:19, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

I appreciate that. Will think about that. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 10:34, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

• Unfam has made two (technically three) edits to an article falling within WP:GSRUSUKR while not a WP:ECP user. While they were made GS aware contemporaneous with the events. this edit by MAE warns them not to edit the page but also asks them to edit the page to revert their edit, which renders their warning somewhat ambiguous.

Unfam, you may not presently edit any article dealing with the Russo-Ukrainian War (broadly construed) - even if the article is not specifically protected. There are also higher expectations of conduct on talk pages in this area. Once you are confirmed as an ECP user (500 edits and one month registered) you may edit articles in this area. Please ask if you have any questions regarding this.

The article has now been protected by robertsky. In the circumstances, I think it would be sufficient to formally log a warning that any subsequent infractions will be dealt with much more harshly.

On the matter of the alleged PA, AN is very fickle in how it deals with such matters. Don't be a hypocrite [and add the other material] is quite different from saying, "You are a hypocrite" - though we really should avoid personalising discussions. I have seen much more egregious instances bought here (sometimes made by Wiki untouchables) that have hardly raised an eyebrow - which really is hypocritical. I believe that a warning is also sufficient in this case.

On the matter of social media as a source, this video, appearing in the article is sourced/attributed to a tg account, an fb account and a news source (of unknown quality) that has fairly clearly used the fb source. The question of sourcing is not so cut and dried in a POV charged current event dominated by WP:NEWSORG sources used by many without discrimination between fact and opinion and a view that WP is a news streaming platform. Cinderella157 (talk) 11:55, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

I only created wikipedia account to ask someone in the talk page to include the video of the secondary explosions. I didn't even want to edit the article at first, untill MAE came and completely deleted any mention of that video, called TASS "russian propaganda", whilr i

incingded unnecessary background info, sourcing websites completely or piaalrtly funded by american government (meduza aradio free europe) which is definition of american propaganda. This is the only reason for why I told him to not act like a hypocrite and why I edited the article myself, despite the lack of experience. I haven't called him a hypocrite then, but I will now, because his actions are the definition of this term. In my opinion, he shouldn't be allowed to edit any articles about ukraine/russsian war, because he is clearly biased. I even asked him to include the video in any way, shape or form he likes instead of completely deleting any mention of it, yet he completely ignored my requests. Instead he started crying about me bullying him and about how "anonymous tg channel isn't a source". Yes, MAE, it isn't a source, but it doesn't make the video itself fake. In my opinion, that video should be uploaded on wikipedia and included in the article, like the CCTV video. But at least it is mentioned in the article now, which is already better than nothing. Now it is better than the russian version of the article, which uses the mass murder template, lol. Unfam (talk) 12:30, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

Thank you, and so this [15] follows. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 12:55, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

Am I wrong? Unfam (talk) 13:14, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

Yes, you're pretty much wrong. What is allowed to be used as a reliable source is not a question of who funds, but one which the community decided by consensus of editorial freedom, historical reliability, reputation for fact-checking, and the like. There are many sources that are funded by some government for which a consensus has been achieved that they are reliable and can be used and many non-government sources which there is no consensus that they are reliable. The community consensus is largely the opposite of your opinion is what is reliable, but Wikipedia policies are made by consensus.WP:RSPSS CoffeeCrumbs (talk) 14:05, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

True, after all millions of flies can't be wrong, right? After having a brief interaction with some of the users here, I understand why no-one sane uses wikipedia as a source. It's nothing more than just a giant reddit-like cesspool. At least it is populated with similar people. Oh, you can also cry about personal attacks, I don't care If I'm going to be banned any more. Unfam (talk) 14:59, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

Nobody should be using Wikipedia as a source within Wikipedia per WP:CIRCULAR, and nobody should be using Wikipedia as a source outside of Wikipedia, given that it is a tertiary source. If you question the reliability of Wikipedia, you're in good company. See Reliability of Wikipedia. In general, Wikipedia is considered as reliable as any other encyclopedia. --Hammersoft (talk) 15:08, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

Translation: you liked Wikipedia just fine until you discovered that it had policies, guidelines and practices that could constrain you from doing or saying anything you wanted. As may be. You are, of course, the best judge of how and where you spend your time. Ravenswing 16:09, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

So, what do you suggest then? Reliability of sources not by consensus, but simply by whatever the most recent person to edit something thinks? How exactly do you think this would work?

Wikipedia is based on consensus and reliable sources. And if that's a serious issue, then this simply isn't a project for you. Which is OK; there are lots of many great projects out there in the world. CoffeeCrumbs (talk) 17:48, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

Given the above tantrum, I'd say an indef is appopriate, since Unfam is WP:NOTHERE. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 18:04, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

HandThatFeeds, I had the exact same thought when reading the above. This is also a personal attack as it comments on the contributor, not contributions ("Biased user") - plus is just a bit of an obnoxious thing to write to someone. I have indefinitely blocked Unfam. Daniel (talk) 18:10, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

We have gone from the ambiguous to the unmistakable. Cinderella157 (talk) 22:16, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

Proposal: Warning

Proposal: Alexis Coutinho warned not to use Telegram as a source

The rest of the thread appears to be sorting itself out, but Alexiscoutinho's continued use of consensus-unreliable Telegram as a reliable source, despite being repeatedly told not to [16] [17] with the excuse that it's OK because it's representing the Russian POV is disruptive in an already extremely sensitive topic. The latest, removal of an image with an edit summary implying revenge "eye for an eye," rather than arguing the source is unreliable, is another edit beyond the pale. The editor is clearly aware of this consensus from a December thread at WP:RSN which exists because of their use of Telegram [18]. I think an explicit warning from the community that Telegram sources are inappropriate is the minimum that needs to be done. CoffeeCrumbs (talk) 18:12, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

Sorry, left out the "eye for an eye" diff. [19] CoffeeCrumbs (talk) 18:14, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

Well their use of tg sources comes not of love for tg, but of their belief that Russian POV, regardless of the quality of the source, should be represented equally to the RS's POV. I. e. WP:FALSEBALANCE .

Addition: I would even correct the "Russian POV" above to Russian propaganda POV, as there are Russian press like Meduza, Insider, Zona, and such, as well as Russian scholars like Igor Danilevsky and others, which are the representation of Russian POV, but the editor is not willing to appreciate these. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 19:28, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

Just shut up to say the least. Alexis Coutinho (talk) 20:51, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

A bit of "beating the dead horse", but this: but the editor is not willing to appreciate these. is easily disproved by [20] where I thank you for the alternative meduza source. Alexis Coutinho (talk) 18:24, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

The following is the reply I was writing before my short block. It was previously posted in my talk page but was apparently not seen:

[207] [208] with the excuse that it's OK because it's representing the Russian POV plain untrue. In those two instances you linked, Telegram was being linked solely for the video. I would have uploaded the video myself if I had wanted to spend the extra time. I readded it because the "three explosions" statement become orphan without it (i.e. {{cn}}). No other source clarified that, they just repeated the dubious Ukrainian claim that there were two bombs. In fact that citation is orphan right now.

revenge "eye for an eye," rather than arguing the source is unreliable Cinderella already hinted how fragile that video's sourcing is. And I had to right to use WP:ONUS anyways to question its usefulness to the article. I thought it was better o be frank than to be deceitful like someone. Furthermore, if the Wikipedia hitmen are seemingly ok with letting that video pass despite using Telegram as a source, but go out of their minds when a video directly sourced via Telegram is used to elaborate a Russian claim, then there's something wrong with the Wikipedia system, which seems to prefer to superficially adhere to some policies while ignoring the underlying issues causing such breaking of policy.

December thread Let me once again remind that that context was completely different.

Alexis Coutinho (talk) 16:54, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

• Support. Super Ψ Dro 18:53, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
• If it was just repeated re-adding of Telegram posts (despite being told not to) that’d be one thing. But we also have super WP:POINTy edits [21] with combative and WP:BATTLEGROUNDy edit summaries (“an eye for an eye”) AND referring to other editors as “professional entitled POV pusher”s AND telling them to “just shut up” (both in this thread above, along with a whole slew of other personal attacks). I think this is well past the point of “warning” (which they’ve had had plenty already) and well into topic ban from Eastern Europe territory. Volunteer Marek 22:16, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
• Support warning about telegram channels.Boynamedsue (talk) 15:36, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
• Support logged CT warning, EE topic ban if this is not an isolated incident, utterly bizarre behaviour, the exact kind that is not needed in these topics. --TylerBurden (talk) 16:48, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

TBAN for Alexis Coutinho

Hi, uninvolved editor here. I'd lean towards a TBAN on from Eastern Europe and the War in Ukraine as a whole, given the suggestion from Volunteer Marek. It's clear this user is doing a lot of WP:BATTLEGROUND editing on this topic and has a poor understanding of WP:NPOV. Allan Nonymous (talk) 14:50, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

• I think there is battleground behaviour happening on both sides here (though not from every participant). I would also say that this is going to be somewhat inevitable when the topic is a literal battleground. However, I would suggest a warning might be more in order at the moment, something regarding respecting WP:CIVIL at all times as well as a giving a commitment to respect WP:RS? It is clear that MAE is quite committed to escalating things with AC, and some of their editing does seem to have the goal of winding him up.Boynamedsue (talk) 15:42, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

  Thank you. suggest a warning might be more in order that's fine, though I guess the temp block I received already served such purpose, idk. WP:CIVIL at all times Yeah, not saying flashy words even when the other gets you mad is ideal, though unfortunately I have difficulty adhering to that with MAE. respect WP:RS this is contentious though given that RUSUKR is flooded with information warfare from MSM which is generally considered RS despite WP:NEWSORG, which is what I think Cinderella157 was talking about previously. There's also the matter of how to use them. Even though they are considered reliable for statements of fact, they are not exempt from bias. Therefore one should not cite things that mostly reflect bias or bias against a POV.

  It is clear that MAE is quite committed to escalating things with AC, and some of their editing does seem to have the goal of winding him up. Concur. Although he often says correct things, some comments mixed in feel unnecessary and seem to have the aim of provoking and WP:STICK. I think the most applicable case of the latter is this sequence [22] [23]. In the first link, I make a strong attempt to deescalate the whole discussion by acknowledging the arguing was becoming unhealthy and toxic for both of us and by breaking the reply chain by Unsubscribing from this thread right now. I also say I really don't want to argue with you again in ANI pleading to not have to interact with MAE again in this toxic discussion. And end with Let cool heads prevail.. However, I was again dragged back to this discussion with a ping and was immediately presented with a superficial and false/provocative accusation from MAE, Well their use of tg sources comes not of love for tg, but of their belief that Russian POV, regardless of the quality of the source, should be represented equally to the RS's POV. I. e. WP:FALSEBALANCE. I'm sorry, but when someone lowers his guard and humbles that much (my parting reply), but then is seemingly ignored and then viciously attacked again by the other (MAE comment), that's evil. Therefore, although my rude "shut up" reply was obviously wrong in the context of Wikipedia, I still think it was somewhat just considering a RL mentality. Alexis Coutinho (talk) 18:19, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

  As said above. If you agree to stop pushing Russian propaganda POV using non-RS and equating Russian propaganda POV presented in non-RS with POV presented in RS then all should be fine. Also please stop blaming the victim, as you did in your unblock request [24] . ManyAreasExpert (talk) 19:12, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

  Don't know what you think you gain with that comment (needless to say I disagree with it) as you're obviously at the bottom of my list of people I would listen advice from, especially here where there are multiple alternative voices in the discussion. Our relationship may be irreparable. The best I think we can do is to avoid discussing directly with each other and being as objective/dry/concise as possible when we inevitably have to talk. Alexis Coutinho (talk) 19:29, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

  I also find it concerning that you repeated basically the exact Russian propaganda argument from before, which prompted me to tell you to shut up some days ago. At this point in time, you shouldn't even be directing a word to me, unless you want more drama. Please let the others handle this. Alexis Coutinho (talk) 21:45, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

  It is clear that MAE is quite committed to escalating things with AC
  I'm sorry but even this very request was not about Alexis. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 19:00, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

• This is becoming a witch hunt at this point. TBANing me for incorrectly sourcing two citations ("and resulted in three large explosions" and "Some Russian journalists and milbloggers similarly accused Ukraine of using the mall as an ammunition depot, citing the multiple smaller secondary explosions a while after the strike") in one particularly contentious article, both of which are generally hard facts given attribution, in an ocean of constructive and important edits in several other articles is beyond exaggeration. Yeah, I was stubborn to keep those sources instead of adding a {{cn}} tag, which wasn't smart, but I still haven't been given a more profound explanation as to why it's unacceptable to use Telegram in those specific two citations besides the overall "because no" and "because policy" explanations.

The real problem here is that I and MAE simply can't get along well, and this is not from today nor from this month. And it's not just because of his POV. I've gotten along pretty well with other editors with a similar POV from the other side of the spectrum, most notably Super Dromaeosaurus. I once again raise the concern of how often MAE pokes and provokes me in his replies, even when he's saying something right. However, when we engage in battlegroundly exchanges, one important difference is that he manages to avoid the flashy words through various methods (many of which are legit), but including by alleging ignorance of what I'm talking about ([25] [26]). I, on the other hand, have recently been more transparent and been leaking my emotions more, which got me into trouble, sadly.

poor understanding of WP:NPOV Yeah, I think I still don't fully understand it. For example, why I can't cite "Russian law enforcement agencies said that a "military warehouse and command post" were set up in the shopping center and claimed that the Ukrainian Armed Forces were using "human shield tactics"." using TASS which is considered reliable for reporting statements of Russian officials. Note that inline attribution was used and not wikivoice. Also note that this general citation still survives to this day, albeit with a different source. So what does "reliable sources in a topic" actually means? It's not like the pro-Russian POV is fringe. It's simply not accepted by the Western world and is overwhelmingly suppressed by MSM, which is generally considered RS in this topic area despite being WP:NEWSORG. Alexis Coutinho (talk) 17:43, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

I think a topic ban might be excessive. Indeed Alexiscoutinho has been generally in line with policy and has acted collaboratively and appropriately. I would just advice them to resist showing their emotions and lose their cold.

It is also worthwhile to explain to them what they do not understand. I encourage experienced editors to take a look at the diffs and try to do so. I don't do it myself because I already had tried to in the talk page and apparently I've failed at that. Super Ψ Dro 17:51, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

Thank you. Alexis Coutinho (talk) 18:20, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

Decline I'm quite troubled by the continued use of Telegram as a source despite repeated, explicit consensus to not do so, and the editor's battling over reliable sources. However, I think they are here to build an encyclopedia, and I'd like to see if an explicit, unambiguous warning from the community is effective first.

And Alexis, I'd beg you to alter your approach to WP:RS. If you feel that the community consensus about Russian sources is wrong and shows an unfair pro-Western bias, your only direct recourse is to change minds at WP:RSN. Otherwise, the only options are to either accept them and move on -- there are plenty of consensus things, though not this, that I disagree with -- or to find another project that creates content that is sourced in a way you prefer. Because the approach you're taking, getting into the Ukraine/Russian fight du jour and railing about pro-Western bias in reliable sources, is not constructive. I'm only a Decline here because I'm a believer in sanctions being preventative, not punitive, and think you deserve a chance to change your approach here. I'd certainly be a Support for a topic ban if we're back here or at WP:RSN with the same problem the next time there's a new, high-profile article about the Russia/Ukraine conflict. CoffeeCrumbs (talk) 18:43, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

Thank you. Alexis Coutinho (talk) 19:17, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

I don't see a problem with using Telegram as a source if that is the vector the Russians are using to express their assessments. That doesn't mean we need to give them credence, but a neutral statement is sufficient, such as "The Russians claimed via Telegram that their weapons didn't do XYZ damage." That's a statement of fact, not any assessment to its accuracy. In fact it's perfectly appropriate to follow that with "But Western sources indicate that the damage was the result of ..." I think a TBAN is a step too far; Oppose. Buffs (talk) 05:55, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

That's what I thought since the beginning. And why I showed concern that not even mentioning it, alleging WP:FALSEBALANCE or WP:FRINGE (an argument I view as fragile while the RUSUKR war is ongoing), or using wikivoice and wikilinks to directly deny the claim in the following sentence could be WP:POV. Alexis Coutinho (talk) 12:22, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

Telegram chats cannot be verified by people browsing the article, so it cannot be used as a source. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 17:14, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

What do you mean? Afaik, only viewing long videos is exclusive to the app. Paid or limited access articles, on the other hand, are much harder to verify. Alexis Coutinho (talk) 19:18, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

Access isn't necessarily the issue, particularly with public channels. I think the problem with Telegram chats is more that they:

• are generally primary sources
• are self published
• are social media
• could easily be deleted and aren't easily archivable
• can be edited
• don't have any editorial oversight and have limited moderation

Aside from that, anything worthy of inclusion will probably be covered by a reliable source. For example, at the beginning of the Russian invasion of Ukraine, I regularly saw BBC News mentioning updates posted on the Ukrainian military's Telegram channels (particularly on BBC Verify). Adam Black ^{talk • contribs} 20:08, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

I see. Regarding the first 3 points, that would probably mean there are exceptions where Telegram sourcing could be acceptable; such as for official routine statistical reports (which may not be consistently covered by reliable secondary sources), and for subject matter experts. Regarding aren't easily archivable, I disagree. I've had no problems in the past to archive Telegram texts through web.archive.org. Alexis Coutinho (talk) 03:12, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

I've had a look, it appears that Telegram is to an extent archivable now. The last time I followed a link to an archive.org archive of a Telegram post, I just saw an error. Video content still does not work, for me at least. If no secondary reliable source exists, and in some other cases, primary, self published and social media sources can sometimes be used. Again, though, if reliable sources aren't covering it is it really worthy of inclusion in a Wikipedia article? Adam Black ^{talk • contribs} 03:49, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

👍. is it really worthy of inclusion in a Wikipedia article? Would be debatable on a case-by-case basis. Alexis Coutinho (talk) 04:04, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

official routine statistical reports

I find it hard to believe that Telegram is the only place these are available. I cannot imagine any official government agency using Telegram as their publication method, making the post inherently suspect. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 19:37, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

The Russian MoD may be an exception. For example, iirc, the ISW only cites statements by it (at least capture statements as that's what I pay attention to) from its Telegram channel. I think routine statements of the Ukrainian General Staff too, via its Facebook page. Maybe social media is indeed the most consistent or at least convenient place to find such official information. For example, the Russian stats in this section, 2024 Kharkiv offensive#Military casualty claims, benefit from a regular (primary) source of information, which allows for seamless addition ({{#expr:}}) of weekly numbers. The Ukrainian stats, however, are naturally more all over the place as they rely on multiple independent secondaries. In the future, when the offensive ends, totals from both sides will very likely be published by RS. But in the interim, this kind of Telegram sourcing seems acceptable. There's also the matter of RL time spent digging such info in Ukrainian or Russian sites every time, trying to find the most perfect source. Alexis Coutinho (talk) 00:12, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

If this should be an exception that allows Telegram to be used, then there has to be a consensus that this exception is acceptabe; you can't simply decide on it. What steps have you taken to get the community to reach a consensus allowing Telegram to be used in a way that would be unacceptable for any other source? Could you link to any WP:RSN discussions or any WP:RFC that you started that led to this consensus being formed?

I was against a topic ban, but if you truly intend to continue pushing Telegram sourcing without a clear consensus to do so, then I think a topic ban becomes a much more compelling outcome. There's no reason to issue a warning if we're going to just be back here in a week on the same issue. CoffeeCrumbs (talk) 11:22, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

you can't simply decide on it. It isn't just me/a monocratic decision. Even here it doesn't seem like a black-white matter. Though there haven't been formal discussions at RSN, for example. Only a limited local consensus there and apparently acceptance by other editors watching the page. Are you saying that I should always ask at RSN whenever a candidate Telegram exception comes up and should never rely on local consensus?

Furthermore, the way you phrased your second paragraph makes it seem like sourcing through Telegram is a capital crime.. But isn't the spirit more imporant than the text of the guidelines and policies themselves? That's why I'm encouraging this discussion to be on a more fundamental level, beyond the red tape. Alexis Coutinho (talk) 13:10, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

User:Normanosborn1's spam

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

All of Normanosborn1's contributions appear to be spam links to sitemile.com, consistently out of scope. They are placed as references, but they are not connected to the previous statement. Est. 2021 (talk · contribs) 19:30, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

I think it's too soon to take this matter here to ANI. The user has only been given a level-1 spam warning so far, and appears to have stopped the activity. WikiDan61^ChatMe!_ReadMe!! 20:11, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

A report to WP:AIV as a promotion only or spam account may have been more appropriate had they continued. Jellyfish (mobile) (talk) 20:44, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Conduct dispute against Geogene and SMcCandlish in Cat predation on wildlife

I have been unable to reach understanding with Geogene who persists in reverting my contribution to the Cat predation on wildlife article and has received full partisan support from SMcCandlish. I reject their unsubstantiated claim that my contribution has contravened Wikipedia guidelines and suggest that their actions are driven by a partisan point of view regarding the article content. The article is closely related to a scientific (and in part NGO-driven) controversy about the global impact of cat predation on wildlife and biodiversity, and effectively replaces an objective coverage of this debate on Wikipedia. Geogene and SMcCandlish, who profess complete agreement on the matter, deny that such a debate has any scientific merit and seek to foreclose any discussion of it, as they happen to side with one extreme of it. They have produced no direct evidence (to counter that cited by myself) that the debate has either not existed or been resolved. Their claims rely on a selective original interpretation of sources (i.e. they echo the claims of one side to have won and to be the only "scientific" one).

Geogene raised an original research objection against properly sourced content and made bad faith allegations that I am trying to push a fringe viewpoint and that I am effectively "watering down or discrediting the modern viewpoint on cat predation". That is something that ought to be demonstrated through adequate citation of evidence. Equally objectionable is their pattern of dismissing entire sources based on their date (without additional justification as per guidelines), arguments advanced, perceived influence etc. This appears to be a way in which Geogene and SMcCandlish have exercised their effective ownership of the article this far. Such a priori judgments about the reputation of a source constitute a personal viewpoint (POV) and if they were to be included in the article, they would constitute original research (OR).

Geogene and SMcCandlish not only represent an extreme stance in the debate, but also deny that any debate is legitimate. They have sought to outright disqualify my contribution and any sources I have cited based purely on their opinion and by attributing a nefarious agenda to it, and invoked either a local editorial consensus between the two of them or an unproven scientific consensus in support. An eyebrow-raising claim they uphold is that "modern science" only dates from the year 2000. There is a considerable scientific literature omitted from the article due to its one-sidedness. (There would also be no ground on which essays, opinion pieces or journalism can be flatly excluded - not least because such sources are already cited.) Judging from their behaviour so far, Geogene and SMcCandlish will dismiss information based on sources that contravene their viewpoint out of hand.

The discussion history can be found on the article's talk page and on the NORN noticeboard. The talk page section in which SMcCandlish seeks to discredit a source may also be relevant.

As far as I am concerned, the only way to assess various claims is through adding verifiable content, and the way forward is for everyone involved to focus on building the article, rather than edit warring and making unsourced claims. I have not been able to persuade Geogene or SMcCandlish about this, however.

Due to their persistent refusal to recognise any evidence that contradicts their viewpoint and to engage in editing the article instead of edit warring, I consider the actions of Geogene to be vandalism, committed in defence of their POV and their effective ownership of the article. I think it is more than stonewalling because the guidelines on OR and OLDSOURCES were twisted to fit a purpose, and because Geogene has resorted to action despite the failure to evidence their claims or offer persuasive arguments in discussion. I am concerned about the two editors' propensity for escalating unfounded accusations and treating them as proven from the start, and about their shared habit of seeking to discredit sources a priori.

I am asking for an investigation of the conduct of the two editors, since it is their attitude and not a dispute over content (i.e. they prefer to focus on reputation and general outlook over the detail of evidence) that stands in the way of resolution.

To be clear, I am far from arguing that my contribution was beyond criticism. It is the resistance with which it met that was unwarranted and gives ground to suspecting that any further attempts to edit the article will be met with the same hostility. I am requesting an intervention to restore the possibility of constructive engagement with the article. VampaVampa (talk) 20:22, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

While your message isn't entirely about a content dispute, a lot of it is and that's not the sort of thing this noticeboard is for. I did my best to read and comprehend that talk page discussion and I just keep coming back to the same question: why hasn't anyone tried an RFC yet? City of Silver 20:49, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

I understood that RFC is not suitable for disputes in which more than two editors are involved.

I grant that it may look like a content dispute. However, what I encountered was a wholesale revert and an attempt to paint me as a conspiracy theorist, therefore I fail to see what specific question in the content of my contribution could be the subject of an RfC here. The question of the existence of the debate has emerged as the underlying point of contention, but please note that this was not covered by my contribution and its sources. The broad framing of the entire conflict is something that was imposed on me by the two disagreeing editors. To address that larger question comprehensively, a whole new edit would need to be proposed - and I would actually happily spend time preparing one, but I want some assurance I am not going to be met with unjustified edit warring again. VampaVampa (talk) 22:43, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

@VampaVampa, that's part of the instructions of things to try before opening an RfC (use WP:DRN if more than two editors). Schazjmd (talk) 22:46, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

I know. I did not think it was a content dispute but if there is a general agreement here that it should be treated as one, then I could try to open either an RfC or a DRN discussion. However, would there be sufficient space to cite the evidence in support of my position in the RfC or DRN summary? I cannot expect all contributing editors to do their own reading. As I tried to explain above, the matter is not covered by my contested contribution. The literature is substantial and not discussed on Wikipedia to my knowledge. I will appreciate your advice. VampaVampa (talk) 22:58, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

@VampaVampa, it is a content dispute. I've read through the discussion on the article's talk page. My personal advice is to drop it. If you choose to pursue DRN or an RfC, I strongly suggest that you learn to summarize your argument succinctly. Schazjmd (talk) 23:12, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

On what grounds please - (1) content dispute, (2) drop it, (3) summarise succinctly? VampaVampa (talk) 23:35, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

@VampaVampa, you asked for my advice; I gave it. I don't know what more you want. Schazjmd (talk) 23:36, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

With all respect, I have asked you for advice with how to tackle the fact that I am expected to defend myself from exaggerated charges that are not really covered by my edit, since RfC or DRN was suggested. I did not ask for advice on whether you think I should accept emotional blackmail and character assassination from other editors.

Since we are a community on Wikipedia your advice has as much value as your insight into the matter. Therefore I asked to know why you think what you think. And if you think my case has no merit, then it is even more necessary for me to learn why that should be the case. VampaVampa (talk) 23:50, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

Geogene's actions are not vandalism, and I suggest you refrain from describing them as such. This is a content dispute, not a conduct one, so there is very little that administrators can do here. If you want to add your changes to the article, get consensus for them first, possibly through an RfC. —Ingenuity (t • c) 20:53, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

I understand that you disagree with my description of Geogene's actions as vandalism but could you offer any reasoning for this? As for RfC I considered it but decided it was not appropriate (as explained in my reply above). I will appreciate your advice on how to frame it as an RfC. VampaVampa (talk) 22:46, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

@VampaVampa Edits made in good faith, even if they are disruptive, are not vandalism. Vandalism implies a wilful intent to harm the encyclopedia, and if such intent is not obvious, then continuing to call edits vandalism constitutes a personal attack. Regards, User:TheDragonFire300. (Contact me | Contributions). 00:03, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

Perhaps I am wrong on this, but for me to assume good faith means that I can add information to the article without being asked to meet the two arbitrary conditions suggested by Geogene in their opening post of the discussion:

(1) use sources more recent than the cut-off date for whatever Geogene considers "modern" in every instance, and

(2) censor myself to avoid "watering down or discrediting the modern viewpoint on cat predation" at any cost (i.e. twisting everything to suit a predefined viewpoint).

If these two arbitrary conditions are not attempted to be enforced through edit warring then indeed I can work together with Geogene. VampaVampa (talk) 00:22, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

I don't want to dispute the vandalism point unnecessarily, but it would seem to follow from a relevant guideline that if "Even factually correct material may not belong on Wikipedia, and removing such content when it is inconsistent with Wikipedia's content policies is not vandalism", then removing content when it is not inconsistent with policies may constitute vandalism. I explained in the discussion on the talk page why I reject the charges of WP:OR and WP:OLDSOURCES and was not persuaded that I was wrong. VampaVampa (talk) 00:31, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

Vandalism is like griefing: if someone thinks that their edit is improving the article it's not vandalism. It literally means, like, when somebody replaces the text of an article with "loldongs" et cetera. What you are referring to is "disruptive editing". jp×g🗯️ 05:54, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

@JPxG: Are you saying my edits are disruptive? Any ambiguous statements on that are likely to encourage further problems here. And isn't the I explained in the discussion on the talk page why I reject the charges of WP:OR and WP:OLDSOURCES and was not persuaded that I was wrong. evidence of the real problem here? Geogene (talk) 06:58, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

@Geogene: Yes -- the thing that VampaVampa is accusing you of is "disruptive editing", not "vandalism". I am not VampaVampa and have no idea whether this is true or not. jp×g🗯️ 10:08, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for the clarification - I was wrong about the definition of vandalism. Geogene's conduct is much more sophisticated than that. As far as disruptive editing is concerned, I think it is intentional. VampaVampa (talk) 15:57, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

VampaVampa, I'm glad you have accepted (albeit after some significant repetition) the feedback of the community here regarding what does and does not constitute article vandalism--though I do very much suggest you take a look at Formal_fallacy#Denying a conjunct, because with regard to your proposition here, your conclusion does not follow from your premises. However, it is actually your last sentence in said post ("I explained in the discussion on the talk page why I reject the charges of WP:OR and WP:OLDSOURCES and was not persuaded that I was wrong.") that I think still needs addressing. Because it is no way required that you be convinced that you are incorrect before your edits can be reverted--and in suggesting as much, you are actually turning the normal burden of proof and dispute resolution processes on their head. Rather the WP:ONUS is on you to gain clear consensus for a disputed change, and WP:BRD should be followed in resolving the matter.

Now, I haven't investigated the article revision history in great detail, but from what I can tell, the article has somewhat been in a state of flux over recent years, reaching the current "Cats are the greatest menace to biodiversity of the un-wilded world" state relatively recently. Neverthless, your changes were to fairly stable elements of the article that had at least some existing consensus support from the then-active editors of the article. When your edits are reverted in these circumstances, you are required to overcome the presumption of a valid reversion by gaining consensus for your addition/preferred version of the article. It is not always a fun or easy process, but it is the standard for how article development and dispute resolution proceed on this project. SnowRise ^{let's rap} 20:47, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

User:VampaVampa - If you have been editing Wikipedia long enough to know what vandalism is, you have been editing Wikipedia long enough to know what is not vandalism. Yelling Vandalism in order to "win" a content dispute is a personal attack. This is a content dispute, compounded by conduct. I don't know what the merits of the content dispute are. I can see that the conduct includes the personal attack of yelling vandalism. Robert McClenon (talk) 01:10, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

Thank you, that is clear enough and I stand corrected - there is indeed nothing in the list of vandalism types that corresponds to what I reported Geogene for. I engineered it backwards by proceeding from "removing content when it is inconsistent with policies is not vandalism" to "persisting in removing content when it is not inconsistent with policies (and argued repeatedly not to be so) may be vandalism", but I realise that has no logical purchase and is nowhere close to any of the definitions. I retract the charge of vandalism and apologise to Geogene for the unjustified accusation on this particular point. VampaVampa (talk) 01:30, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

I looked at the last discussion of the talkpage and stopped reading details in the first paragraph when one of the editors described the RSPB as holding a 'fringe scientific view' on cat predation on birds in the UK. There is little point in even entering a discussion with someone who says that, as you are never going to convince them by reasoned argument. If you are in a content dispute revolving around sourcing with an editor who is never going to change their view, your options available are a)move on, b)Try and get a neutral third opinion, start a clearly worded RFC and advertise it widely to draw in more than the usual niche editors. Only in death does duty end (talk) 11:35, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

It is, however, useful to actually read the material and the cited sources before pronouncing that specific editors are "never going to be convinced by reasoned argument"... because the RSPB in the past has indeed been pleased to throw their weight behind badly reasoned minority interpretations of the science on this topic. That is the point of this dispute. Please spare the stentorian pronouncements if your time is too precious to read up on the material. - That being said, there seems to be no reason for this discussion to continue here, as multiple avenues for expanding the discussion on the article's talk page do exist, and the editor has indicated that they want to pursue them. --Elmidae (talk · contribs) 13:13, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

Thank you very much for the advice. Depending on the outcome of this incident report, I will consider an RfC and find suitable places to advertise it through. Elmidae seems to be suggesting that a potential RfC could revolve around how the respective positions of RSPB and Songbird Survival on cat predation of wildlife should be introduced in the article. However, as is clear from Elmidae's comment, this would likely end up triggering a much broader dispute about the respective merit of the current "majority" and "minority" conclusions drawn from available scientific evidence (assuming all of this evidence is methodologically unproblematic to either side), which could easily be the subject of a book. I think everyone's energy could be spent much more productively in editing the article, but if the only option is to debate the extensive literature in a talk page then so be it. I am open to any option that involves a careful examination of the evidence and the arguments. VampaVampa (talk) 16:17, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

Just a quick word re the amount written hare and on the Cat predation talkpage. I've learnt over the years through my own errors, less is more. Boynamedsue (talk) 15:23, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

Thank you, I will try to learn from my mistakes. VampaVampa (talk) 16:17, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

Aside from not being an ANI matter, this proceeding is also redundant with an ongoing WP:NORN proceeding involving the same parties and material (specifically here). I.e., this is a WP:TALKFORK. "Geogene and SMcCandlish not only represent an extreme stance in the debate, but also deny that any debate is legitimate" is blatant falsehood on both counts. The first half of that is what the NORN thread is about, with VampaVampa attempting to rely on 1970s primary research papers and a defunct advocacy website (and later an "attack other academics" op-ed that is the subject of the long thread of RS analysis immediate above VV's repetitive PoV-pushing thread at the article talk page), to defy current mainstream science on the topic. The second half is just made-up nonsense. In point of fact, at the article's talk page, I specifically suggested that we might need a section in the article about the history of the public debate about the subject. But to the extent that VV may instead mean entertaining perpetual opinion-laden debate on Wikipedia about such topics, see WP:NOT#FORUM and WP:NOT#ADVOCACY. We are here to reflect what the modern RS material in the aggregate is telling us, not cherrypick half-century-old surpassed research claims that someone likes the sound of, and argue circularly ignoring all refutation, in an "argue Wikipedia into capitulation" behavior pattern, which is what VV is bringing to this subject.

PS: VV is completely incorrect that "RFC is not suitable for disputes in which more than two editors are involved", and has simply misunderstood all the material there. RFCBEFORE in particular makes it clear that RfCs should be opened after extensive discussion has failed to reach a consensus. That process almost always involves more than two parties. Where "more than two" appears on that page, it is simply noting that another potential venue one may try, for trying reaching consensus without an RfC, is WP:DRN (and VV notably ignored that advice and ran to ANI to make false accusations instead). The section below that, RFCNOT, certainly does not list "disputes with more than 2 editors" in it as something RfCs should not be used for, and that would be absurd. However, an RfC would not be appropriate at this moment, while the NORN proceeding is still open.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  15:38, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

As to the WP:NORN, we have reached a dead end there:

(1) no party uninvolved in the dispute has intervened,

(2) you have not replied to my last post,

(3) most crucially, in this last post of mine I invited you again to build the article and warned that I would report your conduct to the administrators if one of you reverts again, which Geogene proceeded to do. You left me no other option.

As to RFCNOT, you are probably right and I am happy to be corrected on procedures. But at this point my dispute is with your and Geogene's conduct. VampaVampa (talk) 16:31, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

The purpose of such noticeboards is to patiently solicit uninvolved input. There is no deadline, and starting talkforks at other noticeboards is not conducive of anything useful. Under no circumstances am I obligated to respond to your circular attempts to re-re-re-argue the same matters endlessly, and doing it at NORN would be counterproductive.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  03:29, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

One user against two shouldn't be able to preserve their disputed content indefinitly just by bludgeoning the talk page until the opposition is tired of arguing. That's the disrputive editing here Geogene (talk) Geogene (talk) 16:48, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

There is a policy about consensus which says polling is not a substitute for discussion. VampaVampa (talk) 19:10, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

Also see WP:NOTUNANIMITY. Geogene (talk) 19:31, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

For that good faith would have been required. VampaVampa (talk) 20:20, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

VampaVampa, after nearly being WP:BOOMERANGed for arriving here with false accusations of "vandalism", has now turned to demonizing those they disagree with via false and undemonstrable accusations of bad faith. That is not exactly a wise move.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  03:29, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
PS: It's actually worse than I thought, with VV more recently accusing someone else (EducatedRedneck) of having "a nativist agenda" [27]. At this rate, I don't think we're very far away from simply removing VV from the topic area.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  03:34, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

An editor's claim that an RFC about content is unnecessary because they're right is prima facie proof that an RFC is necessary. The decision as to whether or not an RFC happens should be made with zero input from VampaVampa, SMcCandlish, and Geogene.

Much to the surprise of nobody, the NORN discussion is going nowhere because the three involved editors are bickering there exactly like they have been here and at the article's talk page while nobody else has weighed in on the actual content dispute. (As an aside, any of these three who has complained about anyone else running afoul of WP:WALLOFTEXT is a massive hypocrite.) An RFC will compel these three to state their cases in far fewer words, which will be nice, but much more importantly, it'll attract uninvolved editors who'll review the content issue and work towards a consensus on the content, which in the end is all that's supposed to matter. These threads won't accomplish anything because none of these three editors has shown a willingness to compromise to any extent and their tendency to link policies, guidelines, and essays across multi-paragraph messages ad nauseum guarantees they'll keep speaking past each other. City of Silver 01:05, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

@City of Silver: Re nobody else has weighed in on the actual content dispute Three editors (@EducatedRedneck:, @Elmidae:, @My very best wishes:) have weighed in on the article's talk page since this thread was opened. Still no evidence of support for VampaVampa's revision. Your "blame all sides" is not helpful. Geogene (talk) 01:12, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

@Geogene: Before anything else, edit your message to strike the quotation marks around "blame all sides" and add a note saying you were wrong to quote me as saying that. In your note admitting you falsely ascribed words to me, please include my username so it's clear to others. I never came even close to saying there were sides in this issue because I absolutely do not believe there are. You, VV, and SMcCandlish are all on the same side, the side of improving the website. I also entirely disagree that any substantial part of any discussion has been anything more than two people talking past one person and that one person talking past those two people. But if you've got consensus, why not start an RFC? City of Silver 02:08, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

Before anything else, edit your message Edit your message to remove the personal attacks, including "hypocrits". I never came even close to saying there were sides in this issue because I absolutely do not believe there are. I said you are blaming all sides, which you are. I put that in scare quotes to express my disagreement with them. You, VV, and SMcCandlish are all on the same side, the side of improving the website thank you for that. I find editing Wikipedia to be an extremely thankless enterprise, this thread being a great example of it. I also entirely disagree that any substantial part of any discussion has been anything more than two people talking past one person and that one person talking past those two people. and then the one flings bad faith assumptions at the other two at ANI to try to eliminate them from the topic area. But if you've got consensus, why not start an RFC? Normally it's the one who wants content added who starts the RFC. I noticed above you said, The decision as to whether or not an RFC happens should be made with zero input from VampaVampa, SMcCandlish, and Geogene. I don't recall stating any opposition to an RfC. Geogene (talk) 02:20, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

And see also Brandolini's law; if someone text-walls with rambling claims that are a mixture of personal belief, repetition of and reliance on a defunct advocacy website, and OR extrapolation from and other reliance on ancient primary research papers from the 1970s, then later adds in op-ed material from one academic personality-smearing another and badly confusing public-policy political arguments with scientific evidence, then the response to this is necessarily going to be detailed and lengthy, because it involves multiple forms of refutation of multiple wonky claims and bad sourcing. The alternative is simply ignoring VV's input entirely, but that would be rude and less constructive.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  03:29, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

Responding because I've been pinged. I agree with City of Silver that it feels more like people are talking past each other rather than to them. It's hard not to respond to what one hears, rather than what is actually said, when a debate has become drawn-out. Based on the most recent exchange with VV, which SMC alluded to above, I fear that now includes me as well. (Accusing me of a "nativist agenda" is making it harder for me to view the matter dispassionately, and I'm not sure I'm hearing what VV is trying to say at this time.) EducatedRedneck (talk) 22:12, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for this post because I could see from it that you genuinely tried to mediate, and it perhaps just so happens that with regard to the "objective" differences in worldview, which we have to somehow work past on Wikipedia, you seem to stand closer to Geogene and SMC, without necessarily having been aware of it. So I offer apologies for the accusation.

I also declare myself ready to work with Geogene and SMcCandlish on the condition that none of us tries to seize the upper hand in advance of putting in the work to edit the article. I should make clear that to me that involves seeking to discredit sources that do not unambiguously contravene Wikipedia guidelines (not to exclude genuine debates on the talk page, that's a different thing). I regret but I cannot compromise on this point. VampaVampa (talk) 03:29, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

@City of Silver: Thank you for this - even though I don't think I claimed I was right.

With regard to Geogene's reply, can I just point out that the impartiality of such third-party interventions cannot be assumed? VampaVampa (talk) 01:48, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

@VampaVampa: Please don't make edits unless you think they're right. And I hope you don't expect "impartiality" from other editors. My very best wishes hasn't said a single thing that could get them excluded from an RFC and neither has anybody else who's weighed in. City of Silver 02:08, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

Thank you! I mostly agree with your comments and comments by Geogene and SMcCandlish above. As about user VampaVampa, they obviously made this posting to get an upper hand in a content dispute. That does qualify as a WP:BATTLE, in my opinion. That user is clearly not working collaboratively with others, at least in this dispute about feral cats. My very best wishes (talk) 02:29, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

Holy mother of walls of text... I strongly agree with the most useful feedback that has been given here: this is clearly the stage at which RfC is not only warranted, but arguably the only path forward if one side or the other is not prepared to give way.

That said, I strongly suggest the involved parties attempt torecruit a neutral to word the RfC prompt and that the most vociferous single parties from each side (and I would hope you both know who you are) exercise some considerable restraint in not bludgeoning the resulting discussion (either in terms of volume of response or the length of individual posts). As in, your positions having been well established already on the talk page, you should each make your contributions to the RfC roughly on the scale of 1/30th of what you've had to say so far. Given the relatively small number of sources being debated, the existing diatribes are way out of proportion and, bluntly, well into WP:disruptive territory at this point. And I say this as someone who isn't exactly always the soul of brevity themselves here at all times. SnowRise ^{let's rap} 05:22, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

Detailed analysis of material and claims based on them requires a considerable amount of text. But I've already done the work, so of course I have no need to do it all over again, especially at the same page. Any politicized subject (see, e.g., virtually any major thread at Talk:Donald Trump and its 169 pages of archives) is going to be longer than some people like, both due to the detail required and due to someone trying to get their contary-to-RS viewpoint promoted being likely to recycle the same claims repeatedly, leading to recurrent refutations; rinse and repeat. This is a common "try to wear out the opposition" tactic, in which refutation is ignored and the same claims are re-advanced (proof by assertion fallacy).  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  03:29, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

My friend, McCandlish, this isn't Donald Trump's BLP, and even if it were, what you have been doing on that talk page was clearly excessive. You added 24KB (31 paragraphs!) of text in one post, most of it dedicated to micro-analyzing every aspect of one source, down to caption summary of the careers of everyone involved with it. At the time you posted it, it was larger than all of the rest of the comments from all other editors on the talk page in all threads, put together. All to support an argument that said source was more editorial than a typical MEDRS primary source, and should be afforded less weight accordingly--an adequate case for which could have been made with one paragraph, and an excessive one with two. Nor is it the only titano-post from you or VampaVampa, who I think only slightly trails your numbers.

Look, I think you're an often-compelling participant in discussions, in part because of your propensity for thoroughness. But there's practical limits before it becomes a WP:Bludgeon issue (however inadvertently). And whatever compelling interests you may feel that you have to press your reading of the sources, they can't come close to justifying the extent of the wordcount arms race you and VV entered into. SnowRise ^{let's rap} 05:13, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

WP:BLUDGEON refers to re-re-re-responding to every or nearly every post in a discussion (RfC, etc.) with many participants. It does not refer to producing a source analysis that a particular person disapproves of because of its detail level. And you're not getting the chronlogy right. That material long preceded VV's participation at that page; notably, when VV attempted to recycle the same bad source, I did not post a lengthy re-analysis of it, but referred to the one already done. My responses to VV have been directed at unrelated claims and sources put forward by that editor, and when they turned to circular argumentation that ignored prior refutation, I walked away rather than continue. So, there is no "wordcount arms race". We are at ANI now because one particular person, VV, refuses to drop the stick, despite there already being two (article-talk and NORN) discussions open trying to resolve the underlying content-and-sources matter. Whether this subject rises to the subjective importance level of, say, Donald Trump is irrelevant; it is certainly as polticized and emotive, attracting the same kind of misuse-bad-sources PoV pushing, which is the point I was making.

In the spirit of what I just wrote regarding circular argument and just walking away, I am not going to respond here any further unless pinged directly. There is no ANI matter to settle, except possibly VV's renewed personal attacks in the same subject area (see diff of one against EducatedRedneck above). VV's ANI is WP:asking the other parent. Either NORN will address the sourcing problems, or will not and then we'll have an RfC, but ANI is not for content disputes.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  03:32, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

Two Unpleasant Comments

I have not tried to read the content discussion, and don't know what the content details are. I have two mostly unrelated comments that are not about content, but this is not a content forum.

First, multiple posters have posted overly long posts, that were literally too long, didn't read, which is one reason I haven't studied the content. However, I can see that the original poster has misread two Wikipedia policies, and posted based on their misreadings, and has since backed off from their original comments. One of the guidelines was worded in a complex way because it is complex, and so it could have easily been misread. The other policy could not possibly have been misread by anyone who read it with an intent to understand it, because it is very clear about refuting misconceptions. The first was that User:VampaVampa said that RFC was not applicable if there are more than two parties. That is part of a sort of flowchart-like guideline, and could easily be misread, and was misread. The second was that User:VampaVampa said that Geogene had engaged in vandalism. The vandalism policy is very clear on what is not vandalism. It is sufficiently clear that anyone who argues that overzealous editing in a conduct dispute is vandalism hasn't read the policy. They obviously know that vandalism is one of the worst things that an editor can do, but they haven't read what it is and is not. In other words, VampaVampa insulted the other editor first, and only read what the insult meant after being called to account. So, if I do read the content details, I know not to give much weight to what User:VampaVampa writes, because they are an editor who makes sloppy claims. Robert McClenon (talk) 20:12, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

Second, the dispute has not been addressed except by the original parties at the No Original Research Noticeboard because WP:NORN is a dormant noticeboard. It apparently has no regular editors, and it is very seldom if ever that anything is resolved at WP:NORN. It is a noticeboard where content disputes go to fester and die. The suggestion was made, and not followed up on, that perhaps it and one or more other noticeboards should be merged. So VampaVampa is not asking the other parent here. There is no parent at WP:NORN. But they appear to be following a policy of post first and think second. Robert McClenon (talk) 20:12, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

Personal attack

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Blatant personal attack by Bortak42: [28]. Super Ψ Dro 15:38, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

There was no attack. He was the first to start attacking people because the article was not in line with his private vision and its changes were illegal and not agreed upon in the discussion, he was the first to threaten me and resent me for restoring the legal version of the article. He should stop illegal editing and arbitrariness.Bortak42 (talk) 15:44, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

Worth noting you've already been blocked over this [29]. And also that you are editing WP:RUSUKR articles while not being an extended-confirmed user, which I just realized. Super Ψ Dro 15:59, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

Get the fuck away from me and take care of yourself forest grandpa. I'm telling you once again. Come on. Bortak42 (talk) 16:34, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

..."forest grandpa"? XD Super Ψ Dro 16:39, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

Why are you picking on me, overhang horse? Bortak42 (talk) 16:43, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

Omg this is fierce Zanahary (talk) 08:17, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

• (edit conflict) Note: I highly suspect this edit was made (edit conflict style) as this “be civil” note was being sent on their talk page. Two minutes after making that message linked too above by Super Dromaeosaurus, Bortak42 deleted the personal attack part. I think both editors (Bortak42 and Super Dromaeosaurus) are too involved in the discussion/article they edit warred over to see the bigger picture and both seem to be missing contextual clues from each other. This AN/I was really a “jumping the gun” moment, and reporter failed to even see or indicate the comment was changed to remove the PA two minutes after being made. Since we are here though, maybe a formal edit warring warn for both editors (one being reported and WP:BOOMERANG for reporter) on edit warring would be helpful. See the edit history linked too above. Long, multi-day edit war with no formal discussions taking place until today, with even Super Dromaeosaurus saying they did not do formal processes, after being alerted to being involved in an edit war. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 15:50, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

No boomerang to me. I am who has actually started a discussion in the first place. I did notice the personal attack was removed. The personal attack is a different issue from the content dispute and edit war. By the way go ahead and revert my merge if you wish. At least there is now a discussion. Super Ψ Dro 15:56, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

So based on what you just acknowledged, you saw the personal attack be removed and then went ahead and decided to AN/I report? Yeah no, you need a boomerang “reminder” honestly or at least need to be reminded to take a step back from Wikipedia. You reported someone after seeing them remove the mistake. In fact, you made a “final warning” to Bortak42 two minutes after edit warring to merge the article again. In fact, that “final warning” was your first communication to Bortak42 since 22 May. You are jumping the gun multiple times. I do support a formal boomerang edit warring warn for you and one for Bortak42 after seeing the edit history between you too. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 16:01, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

I have striken out the final warning, given I did not follow formal procedure either. Super Ψ Dro 16:08, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

Get away from me and put your mouth down already. Romanian dirty guy. You started first. I deleted it and you're still complaining. Give yourself some hay. End of discussion Bortak42 (talk) 16:25, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

I’m not an admin, but can we please do something about this blatant personal attack? DalsoLoonaOT12 (talk) 20:52, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

Bbb23 already indeffed them. Disregard DalsoLoonaOT12 (talk) 21:19, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

This is gonna stick with me Zanahary (talk) 08:19, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

There is massive edit-warring on this page, seemingly slightly more so by SD. The personal attack was by B, but was withdrawn. I would suggest either double warning, or none. Boynamedsue (talk) 16:00, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

I agree. This is either a double or nothing situation. Both editors are guilty of continuing this edit warring and both are overall jumping the gun with a personal attack and ignorance AN/I report to show for it. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 16:09, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

They have now added more personal attacks above. I suggest that a block is in order here.Nigel Ish (talk) 16:36, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

I agree that Bortak42 needs a second block for personal attacks, perhaps they'll get the point after a longer block (first was 72 hours). Schazjmd (talk) 16:45, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

• I've indeffed Bortak42 for personal attacks.--Bbb23 (talk) 16:48, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

Thank you. Super Ψ Dro 16:51, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

'Romanian dirty guy' is beyond the pale - I concur that an indef is warranted. Having said that, I was rather enjoying the weird insults at the top of this thread. 'Forest grandpa' and 'overhang horse' are gems. Can you just connect two random nouns and use them as an insult these days? I hate all those waterfall cornflakes editing my favorite article... Girth Summit _(blether) 16:53, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

"Overhang horse" sounds more like a compliment, assuming the recipient is male. —Jéské Couriano v^_^v ^{threads critiques} 17:08, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

Literal translations of an insult, without cultural context! Fun! Secretlondon (talk) 17:38, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

Bloody hell, there is something in the water today. There should be instructions at the top of the page on how not to get yourself immediately banned while a consensus seems to be emerging that you shouldn't be. I suggest calling it WP:FORESTGRANDPA. --Boynamedsue (talk) 21:05, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

'Forest grandpa' is a literal translation of the Polish idiom 'leśny dziadek' and is referring to someone as a 'fossil', Malcolmxl5 (talk) 21:21, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

What about overhang horse? Super Ψ Dro 21:48, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

The only guesses I have for that are https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ko%C5%84_(rze%C5%BAba_Davida_%C4%8Cernego) or a horse ornament for a Christmas tree — rsjaffe 🗣️ 02:03, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

Give yourself some hay is pretty specialist... I guess if the horse is overhung he soon works up an appetite :) ——Serial Number 54129 12:32, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:Or-Shalem

Or-Shalem (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) keeps removing sourced information from the article Moroccanoil (see recent history of the page and Talk:Moroccanoil) on the basis that it is disputed while they are the only one who disputed it and refuses to bring evidence of their claims. To sum up:

1. the user proposed a deletion of the article on the basis that the creator was acting in bad faith;
2. the user accepted that the page is worth keeping but at the condition that the company is not referred to as Israeli, giving the rationale that several countries are involved;
3. once I edited the page to provide clearer referencing, the user refused to acknowledge that at least five sources call the company Israeli and no other available source calls it any other nationality;
4. the users threatened not to read the sources if I did not stand by their own conditions of refraining from editing the article;
5. all along the user accused other users of their own misbehavior. ~ IvanScrooge98 (talk) 19:43, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

I'm not going to comment on anything else, but I'll point out (and notify) AitMazigh, who created an account and within 2 minutes posted a personal attack(diff) in the discussion.

– 2804:F14:8085:6201:60D0:5E55:B29D:8875 (talk) 20:07, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

You're the one defending the article and edit warring and you were the first to accuse me of bad faith editing and posted on my user talk page accusing me of being a disgruntled Israeli trying to hide something. I offered to discuss with you in the talk page, but you refuse to engage with me there, essentially claiming your opinion is absolute and correct. I have asked you multiple times to stop warring and to try to come up with a compromise with me, but you are only responding by repeatedly claiming that the sources say it is an "Israeli company," despite me reminding you that these sources aren't suitable for Wikipedia for the most part and that not all the sources agree with this claim. I have pointed out that calling this an "Israeli company" can be interpreted in different ways, and isn't entirely an objective statement, and argued that while the company can be traced to Israel with enough research, it isn't obviously clear and that there are other countries involved, yes. I pointed out that just because something is sourced doesn't necessarily make it appropriate for wikipedia standards, and when you stated that it is normal for an article to lead with a company's nationality, I responded that not all of them do and for instance Waze, which is also from Israel doesn't, because it is owned by Google. There's some nuance missing here, and I think you're being overly defensive of the article and not allowing other users to contribute. Or-Shalem (talk) 20:21, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

Not only did you remove FIVE legitimate sources that state that it’s an Israeli company you also moved down unrelated sources which have nothing to do with your original grievances and instead criticize the company in question. Seems to me that you’re an individual who works for this company and you’re deliberately trying to alter the page in a disingenuous way. AitMazigh (talk) 20:26, 31 May 2024 (UTC) User blocked as a sockpuppet by Yamla. The Kip ^(contribs) 23:07, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

I don't work for the company (again I'm being accused of something I am not... I think IP above me may be on to something). The sources were speculating that it is an Israeli company. It has not been confirmed by the company themselves that they operate as "an Israeli company." Once again, I repeat that jist because there is a source for something doesn't make it wikipedia appropriate, nor absolute. I'm using nuance to determine that the company should not be called "Israeli" in the opener and I explained that saying the company was founded by Israelis and partially operates in Jerusalem is the objective and indisputable way to go about this. But you are being extremely defensive about an issue I am trying work out with you, diplomatically. Or-Shalem (talk) 20:34, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

This article should probably fall under WP:ARBPIA restrictions. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 21:02, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

This has nothing to do with Palestine lol, this is one individual deleting sources and altering pages to suit his narrative. AitMazigh (talk) 21:04, 31 May 2024 (UTC) User blocked as a sockpuppet by Yamla. The Kip ^(contribs) 23:07, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

Agree. The issue is mainly with an editor refusing to stand by the sources and claiming a clearly sourced nationality should be changed based on consensus. ~ IvanScrooge98 (talk) 21:06, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

It's an article about an Israeli company most of which deals with I/P controversies. The editor isn't EC confirmed, my point is that they probably shouldn't be editing the article at all. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 21:12, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

Well you see, that's kind of the dispute - whether it should be considered an Israeli company or not. Also nonsense that all articles involving Israel belong in the I-P conflict. Plenty of them don't. You just want to gatekeep Israeli articles. At this rate, considering how many changes I am getting from this article, I'll be extended confirmed very shortly. Or-Shalem (talk) 21:23, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

Other than the header there are two subsections to this article, one details criticism by Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions and the other fall out from Eurovision 2024. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 21:27, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

And both of those sections hang on whether this is an Israeli company or not. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 21:28, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

I don't understand what your getting at? What is your point?

The whole controversy with this company is that it is debatable whether it is Israeli or not. That is why calling it "Israeli" in the opener is fitting a certain narrative. The company has not publicly refuted the allegations that they are Israeli, not have they confirmed it. Fact of the matter is they are HQed in NYC. They were founded by an Israeli couple while they were in Montreal. Some of the manufacturing is done in Jerusalem. This is what we have that is objective and factual.

Using this as a basis to call the company itself "Israeli"," which is what the sources Ivan used justified their allegation of it being so did, is itself dubious and debatable this is why there needs to be a discussion before calling it such. The article needs to be neutral until then. Or-Shalem (talk) 21:35, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

Yes I agree with you point, it's about whether the company is Israeli or not. The company has received criticism, that criticism comes from it being perceived as an Israeli company. I'm not saying it is or it isn't (I stay away from editing in the subject area), only that that criticism should fail under ARBPIA restrictions. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 21:53, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

No you and your "friend" are the ones trying to suit a narrative. I don't see how removing subjective and interpretive "Israeli company" from the lead, but keeping "founded by Israelis" or "founded in Israel" in the opener is suiting a narrative. Or-Shalem (talk) 21:27, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

I agree, parts of the Moroccanoil article fall under the WP:ARBPIA restrictions. M.Bitton (talk) 21:39, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

FYI: Instructions on how and when to invoke ARBPIA in a case like this are described at WP:A/I/PIA#General sanctions upon related content. – 2804:F1...9D:8875 (talk) 21:43, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

If you're trying to block me from the article because my change doesn't fit your narrative, i'll be extended confirmed very shortly. I can guarantee that this will not be approved to fit under ARBPIA, all things considered. Or-Shalem (talk) 22:34, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

What matters is that right now, not only you're not EC, but you also violated the 3R policy multiple times. M.Bitton (talk) 22:51, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

In light of a certain attitude shown by the user here and on their talk page, I’ll list WP:GAME as possible additonal disruptive behavior. ~ IvanScrooge98 (talk) 23:02, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

• I don't see how editing an article about a hair care product company, whether or not it is "Israeli", falls under the intended remit of WP:ARBIPA. The company might be the target of activists because of its perceived or real ownership but that, in itself, doesn't mean that the company is involved in the Israel-Palestine conflict and the attempt to stretch the 500/30 guidline for WP:ARBIPA articles to cover a consumer product company is, I believe, disingenuous. This is a content dispute, not one that requires intervention due to Arbitration concerns. This is just another messy incident of editors disagreeing about article content and having to work out a conseensus among them. That's what I see here but I will also defer to admins who work more closely in the AE area. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 02:42, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

  As I pointed out in my opening post, the user has acted assuming the editors’ bad faith from the very beginning, and has refused to bring sources to support his claims when all the ones provided are clear about how the company should be defined. It has to do with their behavior before being a content dispute. ~ IvanScrooge98 (talk) 07:46, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

  And to add on, they have even rephrased the content of some sources to pretend they aren’t straightforward – I’m referring to these: [30][31], from which the user claimed the company was founded “when they were in Montreal” and not “in Montreal”, refusing to acklowledge the clear content. See their talk page per above. ~ IvanScrooge98 (talk) 07:55, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

  Nobody's saying or even suggesting that the company is somehow involved in the Israel-Palestine conflict, but there's no denying that parts of the article relate to the conflict (this is no different than the Eurovision Song Contest 2024 article). M.Bitton (talk) 14:36, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

  The connection between the cosmetics company and the Israel-Palestine conflict is tenuous at best and the sources being used to make that connection are questionable as well. An Israeli company sponsoring the Eurovision Song Contest doesn't make them involved, and this is an overzealous use of the 500/30 guideline, in my opinion. Isaidnoway (talk) 17:31, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

  Regarding "the attempt to stretch the 500/30 guidline for WP:ARBIPA articles to cover a consumer product company is, I believe, disingenuous", it may be, but intent doesn't matter. Content within scope of the topic area is covered by the restrictions. I see the article has a {{ArbCom Arab-Israeli enforcement|relatedcontent=yes}} template because some of the current content is clearly within scope of the topic area. The WP:ARBECR restrictions only apply to that content and related talk page discussions/edit requests within scope of the topic area. If that content doesn't survive for whatever reason (sourcing doesn't look great) the restrictions will no longer be relevant. Sean.hoyland (talk) 16:38, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

  The argument is that this is not in the scope of the conflict between Israel and Palestine. It would be a hell of a stretch to include this company in that geopolitical conflict, simply by fact of it being Israeli (or not). Including this company would, in effect, be stating that every company that is based in or has strong ties to Israel falls under ARBIPA, which seems incredibly out of proportion. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 17:33, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

Inappropriate talk page protection: Talk:Donald_Trump

This is insane. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&logid=162410466

It's one thing to have a politician's page protected, that makes sense. However, when a page is protected, the talk page is necessarily the only place that members of community and the public can weigh in or suggest edits.

An alt-right editor protecting the page, claiming falsely that there is "disruption," should not be allowed. 98.198.62.167 (talk) 21:22, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

• This is the 23rd time the page has had to be protected because of disruption, and it's only for three days. There's only so much fuckwittery that can be tolerated, especially on a BLP. Dunno where you get the "alt-right" stuff from. Black Kite (talk) 21:28, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

Oh, come on. The reason the talk page is protected is because of people who may (and probably have, considering it was protected) post comments that would violate WP:NOTFORUM or otherwise be unconstructive. LilianaUwU ^{(talk / contributions)} 21:51, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

• I have blocked the OP for three months, given their repeated personal attacks. —Ingenuity (t • c) 21:53, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

@ScottishFinnishRadish has now been accused by three individuals in the last month of antisemitism, supporting a genocide, and now being alt-right lmao. All were baseless, obviously.

The life of a good admin, I suppose. The Kip ^(contribs) 03:16, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

Become an admin they said! It'll be fun, they said! ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 09:42, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

At least you don't edit under your real name (unless you really are the root vegetable you claim to be, I guess?). I have to be somewhat careful which editorial quagmires I put my name to. Too late to change now but definitely would not advise. —David Eppstein (talk) 20:37, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

I like to imagine that the last part of SFR's name is meant to imply that he is so rad that it might as well be considered a fundamental aspect of his make-up. As in "I'm Scott-ish, Finn-ish, and Rad-ish." SnowRise ^{let's rap} 03:11, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

Just remember that if vandals insult you, especially for completely opposite reasons, it means you're doing a good job. EvergreenFir (talk) 03:47, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

SonicXMasako2

Said user partakes in edit wars by reverting files when it's not necessary, please do look into this. Vanguardsofthesupporters (talk) 09:22, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

• There might be some good hand/bad hand socking going on here. Multiple accounts with barely any edits suddenly show up and start arguing over the flag. SonicXMasako2 Vanguardsofthesupporters Smokyjosh AlQassamMujahideen and Qafaa should all be scrutinized.--v/r - TP 10:19, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

  what about Pineconefoxowlyipman SonicXMasako2 (talk) 16:31, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

User:Rywrhdfuwy34jhewryr

please block him. inapropriate username. ----modern_primat ඞඞඞ ^TALK 09:41, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

No. WP:UPOL states that confusing or extremely lengthy usernames [...] are highly discouraged but are not so inappropriate on their own as to require action. It was also inappropriate to tag his userpage as an attack page. In fact, I'd say your own userpage is much more inflammatory... Spicy (talk) 09:50, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

I agree 100% with you. v/r - TP 10:32, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

You have already been indeffed on 3 other wikis, if I were you I would tread carefully. Northern Moonlight 14:59, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

IP POV and rudeness

I came across this vandalism on North London derby by User:2A00:1858:1054:848B:203D:82EF:416A:9C17. I reverted it but looking at his contributions, I came across this rude message he posted on @LuK3:'s talkpage. I think it, along with his edit descriptions, that he's WP:NOTHERE to build an encyclopaedia and just wants to push a WP:POV for his favourite football club. The C of E God Save the King! (talk) 10:16, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

Also appears to have similarity to this IP in the context of the comments he is referring to. The C of E God Save the King! (talk) 10:20, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

For reference the IP addresses are all part of 2A00:1858:1054:848B:0:0:0:0/64 (block range · block log (global) · WHOIS (partial)), which has already been blocked twice for the same issue. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 12:48, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

• I've blocked the range for two weeks.--Bbb23 (talk) 14:00, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

Can someone block 2A04:4A43:4FCF:D943:D89A:4387:EBF1:C398 please?

2A04:4A43:4FCF:D943:D89A:4387:EBF1:C398 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) – disruptive editing across multiple articles. Doesn't respond to notices and warnings, often repeating edits that have been reverted. A 24h block should do it, hopefully. Thanks, — kashmīrī ^TALK 17:27, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

Done by Drimes. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 01:05, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

Off-wiki Hounding

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Over the past few weeks, I have been subjected to numerous off-wiki attacks, primarily on my LinkedIn profile. It's been pretty unsettling to say the least. Today, Libraa2019 (talk · contribs) openly confessed that they have obtained some off-wiki evidence about me. They referenced a news story (I'm open to sharing it privately) that discusses my real-life identities and profession, which strongly suggests that they're actively stalking/hounding me off-wiki. What's troubling is that @Libraa2019 was also actively involved in a WP:ANI report against me last month where I was attacked by now blocked UPE editors Aanuarif and Lkomdis. I believe @Libraa2019 is stalking me off-wiki, and potentially behind recent attacks on my LinkedIn, due to my active involvement in nominating articles - created by UPEs and sock farms - for deletion. Their frustrations in AfD discussions seem linked to these incidents. Additionally, while they are hounding me off-wiki, they are also accusing me of having a COI with a startup whose article I created. --—Saqib (talk I contribs) 20:07, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

(Puts clerking hat on) - The only group of editors who have the ability to discuss/handle evidence "privately" are the Arbitration Committee. Best contact them directly. Amortias (T)(C) 20:18, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

Saqib is accusing me of something which i have not done. The reason i mentioned about off-wiki (did'nt shared that site) is because since last few weeks i was gathering evidences to report him [32], He is contineously harrasing me by calling me UPE/sock on multiple platforms without any evidence [[33]] & nominating my creations despite of meeting notability criteria [34] [35]. He even wrote on Wikimedia Commons "the user is socking on English WP" [36], he accused me of socking on commons without any evidence, initiated AFD's by calling me UPE [37] [38], all of my creations are nominated by him with similar statements & i am unable to understand his behaviour as many editors have told him that my picking of sources is correct and they recognized my efforts [39], [40], [41], [42] but he objected all of them. Its natural any one can get frustrated & start gathering evidences to prove that the one calling other editor UPE is may be UPE himself (although not calling him UPE but trying to prove my point that why i wrote "Saqib mentioned his creation off-wiki"). The accusations regarding my involvement in linkedin attacks are false and i would like to see evidences (or he should share evidences to admins regarding my involvement in those attacks) if he thinks so. Libraa2019 (talk) 20:44, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

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IP editor confessing to harassment on behalf of a registered user

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An IP editor, 2A02:8084:F1BE:C780:C1C9:AFE1:C54C:17C1, just to confessed to harassment on behalf of @Bluebird207: toward @Imzadi1979: with this edit. No idea if this is really Bluebird207.

I'm not sure why I was tagged in that post but, since I'm aware of it, passing this along to ANI... - RevelationDirect (talk) 21:24, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

This is not an urgent matter, please retract this, waste of everyone's time - the people pinged by the IP, if they're interested, can do something about it with absolutely no need for ANI's input. If you're not willing to get involved with it, and honestly I'm not willing to even read that IP's message that is bigger than a lot of articles, then I don't see why ANI should be willing to either. – 2804:F1...BD:4D (talk) 21:31, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

Happy to retract this if @Imzadi1979: or an admin requests I do so. RevelationDirect (talk) 21:45, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

I am unsure of what can and should be done. It's been an intermittent but insistent campaign of harassment directed at me over a decade-old grudge for a truthful comment I made that this person didn't like. I have felt no need to apologize for stating the truth back then, and other than this comment, I have not dignified this person's actions with any sort of response. They've retired from editing at their account, and they've been using VPNs to edit from IP addresses all over the world. If they were only targeting me, I'd just continue to ignore the pings and posts, but they've been pinging dozens of other editors with no connection to the original issue. Because of the harassment of others, something should be done, if only symbolically to impart the message that this behavior is inappropriate and needs to stop. Imzadi 1979 → 22:19, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

User:Imzadi1979, I'm sorry that you were treated like that and you handled it like a champ. I left a note for them which may not altogether satisfy you--it may well be that another admin comes by and blocks the account, and that would be fine with me. I appreciate the work you've done here and that you keep doing here, despite all that nonsense. Drmies (talk) 00:37, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

I mean, there's also the fact that only a checkuser (and with VPNs that's a big maybe) or someone very familiar with the behaviour of the user would even be able to know if they're not just joejobing to get an older target of theirs (or whatever other reason), who apparently left Wikipedia over 5 years ago, blocked.

After all, why not just log in to their account to confess? – 2804:F1...BD:4D (talk) 22:47, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

I'm curious as to who the mobiles 2A02. & 2804, are. GoodDay (talk) 22:02, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

Well, on Bluebird207's talk page 2A02 wrote This is Bluebird207, posting at an IP address. Deor (talk) 22:13, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

I am not a mobile IP, if you would like to see my other contributions look at my /40 or /32 range, besides a handful of reverted edits to animated movie articles(I think), all others were mine. – 2804:F1...BD:4D (talk) 22:23, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

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Hold up, Drmies: should the technical feasibility of a temporary block/range block (or blocks) for 2A02 and other affected ranges not be discussed first? The IP is either an editor tenaciously continuing a many-years-long campaign of harassment and disruption, driven by a truly astounding level of obsession to extract an apology they think they are due for a decade-old comment that was testy at worst....or else they are someone joe-jobing in an attempt to sell that story. Maybe I'm missing some technical background here though: have they been IP hopping fast and constantly? SnowRise ^{let's rap} 01:01, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

Snow Rise, of course it's feasible to block that range, and I think a bunch of the IPs/ranges (like this) are already blocked. I think I probably blocked some of them. There's almost a dozen admins among the list that they pinged and so I figured that that page already will get plenty of admin attention. And blocking their range--we can always do that if they start trolling from that one, but it's clear that the previous blocks just haven't done a lot to stop them. Drmies (talk) 01:12, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

I see: thanks for the indulgence and the extra context. SnowRise ^{let's rap} 03:05, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

Spammer

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• Pureloveg (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Could someone block this user. Since their account was created, they have been exclusively spamming. Even when I warned them not to, they still done it anyways. OhHaiMark (talk) 23:29, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

They haven't edited since yesterday. If they resume spamming, reporting them to WP:AIV.--Bbb23 (talk) 23:49, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

Now globally locked. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 01:05, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

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Requesting a block review

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Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard#Block_request; perhaps this was in the wrong place initially. Seems pointless to rehash everything here. If an admin would be kind enough to review, assess, and close, it would be appreciated. Buffs (talk) 05:44, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

 Done by @User:TParis. WaggersTALK 10:49, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

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Popera

I'm here because I really don't see where else to go, so please don't shout at me when pointing me in a direction I missed. Popera is a long-standing redirect to Operatic pop. Two days ago, 117.224.87.42 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) hijacked it with an article about the 'Popere' (also spelled 'Popera'), a clan in India.

This is a less than ideal way of going about things, so I reverted and dropped them the standard {{uw-hijack}} with its links to how to go about proposing a new article. They reverted me, I reverted them back with an edit summary asking them to read their talk page, and that was that.

They've come back on a different IP today, 2409:40d6:c:cdc:8000:: (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), and reverted me once more.

The thing is, I suspect the article they've created has merit. If I'm right about that, it should be at Popere, and Popera should either be a disambig or remain a redirect to Operatic pop (perhaps with a hatnote on that article).

If that is correct, it needs someone to split the history currently at Popera, moving the hijacking to Popere and leaving the non-hijacked redirect where it is. Is that even possible? If it is, it's obviously beyond my skill and what I can achieve as an IP editor anyway. 81.187.192.168 (talk) 14:02, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

I may be wrong, but I don't think the sources at that version verify the statement The Popere, or Popera is a clan of Koli caste found in the Indian state of Maharashtra. At best, they mention a few people with the surname Popere (for example, Rahibai Soma Popere) and then a single, possibly academic source mentions a mythological king named Popera. Does the existence of a surname automatically mean that a clan or caste by that name exists? (I ask that in good faith. I don't have the background to know.) There's nothing at List of Koli states and clans, for example. Woodroar (talk) 14:48, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

No idea – I know as much about the subject as you do! If the hijacked version has no merit, then this thread is moot, other than... can a couple of people watchlist the redirect so I don't accidentally go over 3RR if the person hijacking it keeps jumping IPs to rehijack it again? 81.187.192.168 (talk) 14:53, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

That's a good call. It's on my watchlist now, and I don't mind requesting protection if they keep hijacking it. But I'm also not an admin so the more watchlists it's on, the better. Woodroar (talk) 15:27, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

Apparent script kiddie skewing views on an article

This isn't urgent per se, but it's a chronic issue happening over many months. this Village pump post covers all the details. While this isn't a huge problem, the accumulating fake views of Neatsville, Kentucky are skewing our statistics and rankings. I am thus inquiring as to whether this access to Wikipedia can be blocked. Stefen Tower_{s among the rest!} ^{Gab • Gruntwerk} 22:09, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

Yikes! I just looked at Pageviews analysis and the article has 2,266,354 pageviews for this year so far. Isaidnoway (talk) 23:13, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

Normal administrators (wiki admins) have no control over this, unless you can find something to protect, delete, or block from editing. Action will require someone involved with the Wikimedia network operations, via WP:VPT or ultimately WP:PHAB. -- zzuuzz ^(talk) 05:52, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

OK, I will report to PHAB as a security issue. I already have a VP post (although in Misc rather than Tech). Stefen Tower_{s among the rest!} ^{Gab • Gruntwerk} 06:39, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

User vandalizing other user page

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User:JamesBNE vandalized my talk page. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:InfinityAtom&oldid=1201184302 InfinityAtom (talk) 04:32, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

Why are you reporting a blanking that happened in January and that the user undid ~1 minute later? – 2804:F14:80BE:B501:C53A:6712:B999:B28F (talk) 05:25, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

If I'm allowed to guess what this is about: Please do not use this board to troll your friends. – 2804:F14:80BE:B501:C53A:6712:B999:B28F (talk) 05:31, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

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Stubbornness of user AutisticAndrew and not being collaborative.

• AutisticAndrew (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

See his talk page with edits reverted. This user is not collaborative at all after explaining what the practice should be for certain articles (see my contributions indeed). I've enough of his stubbornness. Looks like I'm dealing with a kid. Island92 (talk) 13:07, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

I haven't looked into this fully, but why did you revert to restore the editor's removal of your message on their talk page? Daniel (talk) 13:14, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

You also haven't notified AutisticAndrew about opening this thread, as you are required to do (this is outlined both in the big red box at the top of this page, as well as the giant yellow box in this pages' editnotice). Daniel (talk) 13:16, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

He reverted. I did not want to make it read for others. Simply as that. Island92 (talk) 13:16, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

He reverted what, sorry? I do not understand your comment. Daniel (talk) 13:17, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

I added the "block" massage because it is not the first time he has been stubborn on some edits because he thinks must be his way/how he likes it. And he reverted my "warning". Island92 (talk) 13:19, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

He is perfectly allowed to remove your warning, and it is inappropriate for you to readd it (WP:REMOVED). Given you are unable to block editors yourself, writing a message entitled "Block" with the content "You are risking a block from editing. I've warned you." (entire content of message) is pretty inappropriate, in my opinion. We can communicate better than that.

Further, slowly diving into this, this edit, which you reverted as vandalism ("rvv"), is clearly not vandalism? Daniel (talk) 13:21, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

The further I dive into this, the worse it is. I sincerely hope the original poster has no relation to 191.58.96.178 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) and 168.227.111.24 (talk · contribs · WHOIS). Both the original poster and AutisticAndrew have been wide-scaled edit-warring over the past couple of days, despite barely making use of article talk pages, and both are lucky they aren't blocked right now. Daniel (talk) 13:27, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

If only this user would be less stubborn... maybe. There are certain practice in some articles. See history page of 2025 FIFA Club World Cup as an example. Island92 (talk) 13:55, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

That is hardly an answer to my questions and concerns. Daniel (talk) 20:02, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

@Island92: - I've notified @AutisticAndrew: of this discussion, which you have failed to do even after it being pointed out to you.

You're both edit warring on that article, neither of you have attempted to go to the talk page, and you've continued since opening this thread, so I don't think all the blame can be attributed to one party. I'd remind you of WP:BOOMERANG before you go much further. I would advise you at least start the talk thread rather than continuing to revert war. Mdann52 (talk) 14:01, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

For what it's worth, this morning I left AutisticAndrew a message on his talk page about edit-warring in 2025 FIFA Club World Cup and noting that while I think it's pretty clear he's violated 3RR, I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt for the moment before I seek administrator intervention. Guess we'll see what he does in response. Given that I'm not asking for intervention here, I don't understand the policy to require me to notify him—I understand that to be Island92's responsibility (and it appears Mdann52 has rendered that issue moot anyway for the moment). I simply wanted to mention that I left the message there before I was aware that this discussion existed and I don't intend to do anything about it unless the problem persists. 1995hoo (talk) 14:02, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

And see history page of 2023–24 UEFA Champions League where he kept insisting on removing "in London" just because everyone knows where Wembley is. Now the page is protected for the edit warring. This user should not behave as a kid here. Island92 (talk) 14:21, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

Yes, and you kept edit-warring to restore it, without discussing it, which makes you equally as bad as AutisticAndrew. Please immediately stop describing people as "behaving as a kid". Daniel (talk) 20:02, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

That is the impression he gave to me, to be a kid. Every Champions League page includes city name. That has not to be different. It's logical understanding. "Everyone knows where Wembley is doesn't make any sense at all". Island92 (talk) 20:09, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

@Daniel: He keps insisting. See history page of 2023–24 UEFA Champions League and talk page. Island92 (talk) 13:14, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

@Island92: AutisticAndrew removed a personal attack you leveled against them. I've warned you on your Talk page. You really need to clean up your act.--Bbb23 (talk) 13:58, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

User engaging in nationalist revisionism

The user @Aamir Khan Lepzerrin: appears to have been adding Kurdish nationalist historical revisionism to various pages, such as this this, this, this, and this.

According to their contributions page, they also have been engaging in edit warring when their questionable edits have been reverted.

Per their talk page, they have also responded to warnings against making disruptive edits by being combative, and they have also left blatantly ethnonationalist messages on the talk pages of some of the users who have reverted some of their disruptive edits. Antiquistik (talk) 16:41, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

You're wrong. I'm not even a Kurd. Aamir Khan Lepzerrin (talk) 16:48, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

I don't see anyone making the claim that you are. Canterbury Tail talk 17:45, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

He claims that I practice Kurdish nationalism. However, I am only writing information with cited sources. If I had written information without sources, he might have been right. There is a sanction for deleting sourced information, right? I will also report these users. Aamir Khan Lepzerrin (talk) 13:00, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

@Aamir Khan Lepzerrin: I didn't claim anything about your personal ethnic identity. The issue is with the content of your edits, which is assuredly Kurdish nationalist revisionism in nature. Antiquistik (talk) 06:09, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

I’m not an expert, but what’s wrong with the first and third diffs? It looks like relevant information being added. Are the sources bad? Zanahary (talk) 19:11, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

I wouldn't say the sources are bad, but it's more about cherry-picking undue sources that are out on a speculative limb to begin with. I don't think this user needs any sort of sanction other than an exhortation to respect consensus and not be so combative. Cheers. Dumuzid (talk) 19:15, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

The sources are either outdated themselves or rely on outdated scholarship. And the user Aamir Khan Lepzerrin is using them to make nationalistic claims that are presently rejected by the scientific scholarship on the subject and largely persist only in fringe (ethno)nationalist ideology.

For example, the name Waššukanni is now accepted to originate from an archaic Indo-Aryan language used by the ruling elite of the Mitanni kingdom. Meanwhile, the Kurdish language is an Iranian language not attested until around two millennia after the end of Mitanni, and whatever ancestor of it that existed at the time that Wassukanni existed would have been more alike to Avestan, Old Median and Old Persian than to the Kurdish language as it is historically attested.

Similarly, the name Karduniaš is from the Kassite language and was used as name for the Kassite kingdom of Babylon in the Bronze Age, again about two millennia before the first attestations of the Kurdish people, while the etymology of the name of the Kurds is itself still very uncertain and the Kassite language is still too poorly documented for any certain etymological connection to be established.

At best, Aamir Khan Lepzerrin's edits fall into WP:UNDUE.

Antiquistik (talk) 06:28, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

Keep your personal opinions to yourself. We are not interested. You cannot remove information with specified sources just because it does not fit your personal ideology. Based on your field of expertise, do you say that the sources are not valid? All the information I provide is the claim of competent people in their field. They are experts but who are you? Aamir Khan Lepzerrin (talk) 12:45, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

With all due respect, this is exactly the type of response that is the problem. Attempted bullying is not going to be a successful strategy here. Dumuzid (talk) 12:47, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

Bullying is not my thing. Let a few people who think like me come and defend me here. Is this fair? The only thing I do is write information by giving sources. I did not write a single piece of information that showed my personal opinion. Aamir Khan Lepzerrin (talk) 12:55, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

Do you understand that Wikipedia works by consensus? So that if multiple people disagree with you, even if you can cite to some source, you may not be able to include the information you want? Dumuzid (talk) 13:01, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

Consensus? By how many people? How many people saw this edit and how many approved it? Since only two or three people opposed it, that means hundreds of other people who saw it approved it. Logic is a principle of thinking. One has to be like Descartes. We can understand this by thinking simply. Aamir Khan Lepzerrin (talk) 13:08, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

Your logic is faulty to say the very least; you cannot infer assent from silence when there is no obligation to participate. If two or three people oppose you and no one supports you, then you must accede to that consensus. You can ask for more eyes at a project page, or start an RFC or the like, but you cannot simply demand that your edits be included. Dumuzid (talk) 13:19, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

No one predicted that you would object to the information whose source was stated. Information is given and the source is stated. Of course other users would not object to this. You are probably succumbing to your ideologies. I am not Kurdish. I write whatever the information is. If there is persistent opposition to the regulations aimed at the Kurds, I would blame it on "hostility towards Kurds". Especially one user makes this happen constantly when it comes to Kurds. Aamir Khan Lepzerrin (talk) 13:27, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

Okay, I officially retract my "no sanction needed" stance, and fear we may be nearing WP:CIR territory. I'm done. Cheers, all. Dumuzid (talk) 13:31, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

It applies to you and they too. I haven't complained about yet. Moreover, there is also the sanction of deleting the sourced information. Aamir Khan Lepzerrin (talk) 13:37, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

Coordinated editing around Indian military regiments

Users:

• Jatingarg9368 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Peakconquerors (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• GokulChristo (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• 78 MEDIUM REGIMENT (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (h/t Pickersgill)
• 117.98.108.127 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) (h/t Procyon)

Drafts:

• User:Peakconquerors/sandbox (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
• Draft:207 Field Regiment (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
• Draft:150 FD REGT (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
• Draft:1211 Medium Regiment (Congo) (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) (h/t Procyon)
• Draft:172 Medium Regiment (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) (h/t Procyon)

SPIs:

• WP:Sockpuppet investigations/832LT

COINs

• WP:Conflict of interest/Noticeboard#Indian Army regiments—articles being edited by orders from army brass

Over the past couple days myself and a couple of other helpers at WP:AFC/HD have noticed a serious WP:COI/WP:PAID situation with regards to Indian military units. The drafts in question all have virtually identical formatting and tone, are poorly-written and sourced, and are heavily jargoned to the point of incomprehensibility. While there is an active SPI on this matter, JBW notes that this is more a case of coordinated editing; apparently higher-ups in the Indian military have ordered the creation of these article( draft)s on military regiments which is leading to this situation.

I'm starting this thread primarily to collect which accounts and drafts that haven't already been addressed yet are part of this project, and to figure out what, if anything, can be done to stymie this. (I won't host them on my userpage because this falls into the Indian subcontinent contentious topic.) The accounts and drafts I've listed are just the ones I've seen on AFC/HD in the past couple days. —Jéské Couriano v^_^v ^{threads critiques} 18:19, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

78 MEDIUM REGIMENT Arrived today, and recently we've had 297 Medium regiment, 42 Med Regt, 108 Field Regiment, 638 SATA BTY, 106 Med Regiment, 95 Field Regiment, and 228 Fd Regt. There are probably more. Pickersgill-Cunliffe (talk) 18:37, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

Don't forget Draft:1211 Medium Regiment (Congo) and Draft:172 Medium Regiment. Procyon117 (talk) 18:38, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

This IP address is also related. Procyon117 (talk) 18:46, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

We need this centralised in one place. Secretlondon (talk) 18:59, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

@Secretlondon: You thinking AN(/I) or LTA for this? —Jéské Couriano v^_^v ^{threads critiques} 19:07, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

It's also at COIN and Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/832LT. The sockpuppet entry is the longest, but they are meat puppets. 10:56, 5 June 2024 (UTC) Secretlondon (talk) 10:56, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

As an addendum, I'm putting together a sortable table of all identified accounts/drafts thus far, and I'm noticing a trend - there's quite a few autocon-buster accounts here who've used their status to create articles directly in mainspace; with no exception that I can see (yet) they've been swiftly draftified. —Jéské Couriano v^_^v ^{threads critiques} 19:42, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

• Admin note I've blocked the named accounts. CU evidence is  Inconclusive - most of the accounts have overlap on a range blocked for spamming, but the ranges at play are huge and extremely dynamic. There is also some UA overlap, but again, it's too common to be definitive. This is obviously coordinated editing which, behaviourally, looks to be the same individual (or group of indivduals) which falls afoul of WP:SOCK regardless if it's classic socking or WP:MEAT.-- Ponyo^{bons mots} 19:57, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

  @Ponyo More accounts with the same editing patterns (Indian army regiment drafts in the last 3 days or so)

  1. Rahulsingh278 (talk · contribs)
  2. Topguntwoatethree (talk · contribs)
  3. Sarvatra15 (talk · contribs)
  4. 831 palali (talk · contribs)
  5. Basantarbull (talk · contribs)
  6. Piyushkb95 (talk · contribs)
  7. 85josh (talk · contribs)
  8. Braveheart0505 (talk · contribs)
  9. Sam4272 (talk · contribs)
  10. Vijaykiore (talk · contribs)
  11. Garuda35 (talk · contribs)
  12. Manlikeut (talk · contribs)
  13. Govindsingh2494 (talk · contribs)
  14. 171 FD REGT (talk · contribs)
  15. Valiants216 (talk · contribs)
  16. Freeindiandemocracy (talk · contribs)
  17. Srushtivv (talk · contribs)
  18. Sarthak Dhavan (talk · contribs)
  19. Vaibhav Kr Singh (talk · contribs)
  20. Abhi892 (talk · contribs)
  21. Abhi1830 (talk · contribs)
  22. Yugsky (talk · contribs)
  23. Veerhunkar (talk · contribs)
  24. 172fdregt (talk · contribs)
  25. AmrishAnanthan (talk · contribs)
  26. 171FieldRegt (talk · contribs)
  27. Behtereen (talk · contribs)

  Qcne (talk) 20:00, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

  Qcne, could you please cut and paste this list to the SPI? I'll handle it from there.-- Ponyo^{bons mots} 20:04, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

  I've put the list on the SPI as a new request, and included what Procyon has below. —Jéské Couriano v^_^v ^{threads critiques} 21:38, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

  Before I go to bed (and since you haven't posted to SPI yet) I'll post these ones too:

  • SSBSAMmedium (talk · contribs)
  • Velluvoms (talk · contribs)
  • Mighty53 (talk · contribs)
  • 202.134.205.64 (talk · contribs)
  • Proansh1661 (talk · contribs)
  • AU1963 (talk · contribs)
  • Hararkalan101 (talk · contribs)
  • Unknown5xf (talk · contribs)
  • Bahattar (talk · contribs)

  Procyon117 (talk) 20:39, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

  Damn you, but also thank you, Ponyo. I just got thru the initial list here and at the SPI; I'll add the list above, where it doesn't overlap with what we've already seen there. As soon as I'm done, I'll post the table to my userspace; this is serious enough I'm willing to ignore my usual "No Contentious Topics" rule. Watch for this link to turn blue: User:Jéské Couriano/2024 Indian Military Regiment Spam. —Jéské Couriano v^_^v ^{threads critiques} 20:13, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

  Worth mentioning that this seems isolated to artillery units. Pickersgill-Cunliffe (talk) 20:45, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

  I've put up the table and updated it with every name provided by Qcne and Procyon; it's linked above. —Jéské Couriano v^_^v ^{threads critiques} 21:10, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

  Another, User:AyushRoy99/sandbox. @Ponyo @Jéské Couriano Qcne (talk) 07:37, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

In re the drafts

With the accounts (currently) dealt with, I think the next point of business is the drafts, and whether or not they should be kept or deleted under G5. I'm of the opinion that the lot of them should be deleted under G5; even if they are notable subjects (and I make no judgment on that front; the sourcing presently on them does not help) the articles are so badly-written that they'd need ripped up from the roots and redone by someone with no connexion to this campaign. We also shouldn't be rewarding clueless brutes upstairs by keeping their efforts to spam Wikipedia around. —Jéské Couriano v^_^v ^{threads critiques} 22:11, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

I agree. None of the "articles" (or drafts, rather) should be kept. I would say under G5 as well. Procyon117 (talk) 03:07, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

I support G5ing all of the drafts that were created after the first sock was blocked. We shouldn't be slaves to a literal interpretation of G5's wording; there's no point in dragging the process on for six months until G13 applies. Air on White (talk) 03:11, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

I have already gotten the drafts in userspace wiped with U5. Air on White (talk) 03:08, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

It doesn't sound like they would be valid CSD G5s since no editor was evading a block when they were created. CSD criteria are intentionally limited. Better see if they fit another criteria then try to bend the accepted rules as a way of deleting these articles. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 05:38, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for all the work done on this to date. Questions: do we know when the first of these accounts was blocked? And does this fit the pattern (it seems rather different from those I've seen to date)? Thanks, Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 09:40, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

This one is not in the SPI, but seems to fit the name/editing pattern too: 106medregt. Blocked on 04:58, 17 May 2024 by @Cullen328 as a spamublock.

That said, I haven't really looked at this, just checked over if the list of accounts here was copied properly to the SPI case (many hours ago) and found this account's sandbox by searching some of the abbreviated terms in user space (ordered by page creation date). – 2804:F14:80BE:B501:BC28:2F:9049:1F4D (talk) 10:05, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

Unchecked vandalism in 2024 Indian general election

Been waiting for requests for page protection for half a day while such blatant crap such as this [43] by prolific vandals such as GuruRavidasPuttar (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) were allowed to be made repeatedly. Borgenland (talk) 18:54, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

Raúl Quintana Tarufetti and Svartner

The user Raúl Quintana Tarufetti (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) previously blocked by disruptive edits to the article Argentina–Brazil football rivalry, has returned to making edits that completely disregard the scope of WP:FOOTBALL to impose WP:POV, insisting on duplicating matches counted in the full-international list as unofficial, to validate his point that these matches, which are listed, are not official (see [44] and [45]).

I've already reverted his edits twice and explained why they were wrong, but he indefinitely insists on his point. I create this incident notice to avoid another edit war. Svartner (talk) 21:02, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

The user Svartner (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) makes disruptives edits to the articles related to Argentina–Brazil football rivalry, making edits that completely disregard the scope of WP:FOOTBALL to impose WP:POV, insisting in not seeing a lot of sources (by FIFA, AFA, Rsssf.com, Elo Ratings, TyC Sports, El Gráfico) of matches counted as official (many of them) and unofficial (many of them) in the full-international list, to validate his point that these matches, which are listed, are not official or official, depending if they "beneficiate" to Brazil or not. (see [46] and [47]). I´ve tried a lot of times to discuss with this user, but he refuses... He only sees what it´s convenient to Brazil. For example, he uses the Rsssf.com and Elo Ratings sources to "prove" the 1922, 1923, and 2 matches of 1968 (won by Brazil) were "official", but when these 2 same sources say the 1920 and 1956 matches (won by Argentina) are official, he doesn´t see that and says they were not official (?) [48] [49]... For what he likes they are right sources, but for what he doensn´t like they are not. And I´am the "disruptive" and want to impose WP:POV?

The naked truth is that those 6 matches are unofficial according to FIFA. This user disrespects the FIFA´s source I gave with the complete list of official matches and I do not see these 6 matches in the FIFA´s source with the complete list of games; no 1920, no 1922, no 1923, no 1956, no 1968 (two games)!!! There is notihing in football more official than FIFA, and this source and many others says clarely that 1920, 1922, 1923, 1956, and the two matches of 1968 were unofficial!!! Look, the source from FIFA: FIFA official´s page (archive). Argentina vs. Brazil head to head. February 2013. This FIFA´s source is from Feb. 2013. After that date, they played 10 times, with 4 wins for Argentina, 4 wins for Brazil, 2 ties and 1 suspended match. To see the complete list of matches according to this FIFA´s source, please click in "Advanced search", and then in "Show all matches" So I´am the "disruptive" and want to impose WP:POV?

Moreover, there are also a source of AFA (Argentina FA) with the complete list of official matches: Asociación del fútbol argentino official´s page. “Historial de los enfrentamientos entre las selecciones de Argentina y Brasil”. November 19, 2023. The AFA´s source is from 11-13-2023. After that date, they played 1 time, won 1-0 by Argentina. I do not see those 6 matches either... And I´am the "disruptive" and want to impose WP:POV?

There is also a El Gráfico magazine source with the complete list of games: [50] and I do not see those 6 matches... And I´am the "disruptive" and want to impose WP:POV? It seems all of these sources are not valuable for him. Look, from Rsssf.com, about the two 1968 matches: List of Argentina UNOFFICIAL matches and the match of 1956 [51]... The only sources he accepts are the one that "beneficiates" Brazil!

I've already reverted his edits and explained why they were wrong, but he indefinitely insists on his point. I create this incident notice to avoid another edit war. Raúl Quintana Tarufetti (talk) 21:34, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

PD: I tried to discuss lot of times and he refused [52] [53]. I also took this issue to the Football Wikiproyect but nobody came to participate. [54]. I can´t do anything else... I think the most important and official source in football that we can have is FIFA... No other site or association can be above FIFA, and the only source of FIFA that have the complete list of matches is the one I put above [55] I repeat: To see the complete list of matches according to this FIFA´s source, please click in "Advanced search", and then in "Show all matches". And you will see there aren´t the 1920, 1922, 1923, 1956 and 1968 games. I ask you: am I the "disruptive" and want to impose WP:POV? End for me. Raúl Quintana Tarufetti --Raúl Quintana Tarufetti (talk) 21:53, 4 June 2024 (UTC)(talk) 21:51, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

No comment on what this is about, but could you stop using that amount of boldface? It doesn't make it at all easier (and certainly not more inviting) to read. Please use words, not typography, for emphasis. Thank you. ---Sluzzelin talk 23:32, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

Ok I will take off the boldface. But please read all the arguments and go to the point. Please. Thanks. --Raúl Quintana Tarufetti (talk) 23:40, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

Neverrainy

Without providing any reason or justification for doing so, the user 'Neverrainy' went through all the pages for each series of 'The Great British Sewing Bee', removing data relating to the TV ratings for each series. They simply deleted the information, without stating why. As the TV ratings were in an established format that had existed for many years without any negative comment or reaction and as no justification for the edits by 'Neverrainy' were given, I reinstated the deleted data. The reinstated data had been sourced and verified and the source references were included in the reinstated data. Almost instantly, 'Neverrainy' posted a threat on my talk page, warning me that I had added unsourced, unverified data to these articles. A dishonest, intimidating act. 'Neverrainy' then reverted the reinstatements, again providing no justification or comment as to why. I posted a similar warning to 'Neverrainy's' talk page, which was immediately removed. This editor clearly wants to engage in an edit war and is using wikipedia as a battleground to have articles written only in their preferred style, regardless of the value and interest of the data they keep removing without providing any justification. Just for comparison, the TV ratings for 'Strictly Come Dancing' are logged and recorded for each series article page in the same manner as 'Sewing Bee', something apparently 'Neverrainy' doesn't object to. I am requesting the deleted data is reinstated and 'Neverrainy' is asked to stop the edit war and to leave the historic pages that exist in an accepted format, alone. MWEditorial (talk) 04:35, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

Hello, MWEditorial, you need to provide diffs/edits to indicate examples of the disruption you are describing. Don't expect other editors to search for them. And I hope you notified the other editor of this discussion as indicated at the top of this page and edit notice. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 05:23, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I've notified the other user of this discussion.

Have you made an effort to discuss why these changes were made by the other user? Apart from the templating I can't see any efforts to discuss this on the talk pages? The changes aren't major, they are minor visual changes, so maybe it's best to Assume Good Faith, discuss it, and match what is on other WP pages for similar series? Mdann52 (talk) 05:25, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

"Neverrainy' provides no commentary in their edits. They simply delete and then delete again, after posting threats, when their unexplained deletions are reinstated. I think that was made clear. For example: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=The_Great_British_Sewing_Bee_series_10&action=history MWEditorial (talk) 05:30, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

@MWEditorial While I agree they probably should have contacted you with more than a templated warning before reverting each of your edits that had the same apparent issue of being a "messy" format, it doesn't change the fact that you have decided to go to the dramaboards without even attempting to fulfil the minimum we expect from complainants that feel they have no other choice but to resort to it: no constructive comments, providing of evidence or even following instructions such as to notify an editor they're talking about. I will say that you'd be far better off withdrawing this complaint and attempting to make an actual effort to discuss with Neverrainy. Regards, User:TheDragonFire300. (Contact me | Contributions). 05:53, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

@MWEditorial: As discussed above you have failed to notify Neverrainy (talk · contribs) of discussion, even though the red notice on top of this page clearly requires you to do so. In fact, you have not even attempted to discuss your concerns with them at all, so it will be very difficult for admins to entertain any sort of sanctions for them; in fact, you might find yourself the subject of sanctions instead. Remember, ANI is a last resort; if there's any method for you to work out your concerns with the user in question, we expect you to take the initiative and do so first before filing a complaint here. In addition, even if you still want to proceed with the complaint anyway, you must provide evidence in the form of diffs and why you think they are sanction-worthy. Regards, User:TheDragonFire300. (Contact me | Contributions). 05:29, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

I posted to 'Neverrainy's' talk page and they deleted the comment instantly, before reinstating all of their edits, without explanation or discussion. Just as 'Neverrainy' provides no commentary for any of their deletions and post threats when the unexplained deletions are reinstated, refusing to engage. Thank you for threatening me for simply trying to stop an aggressive editor in their edit war. If they object so strongly to the 'minor edits' being in these pages, they would delete them everywhere they exist - I gave the example of the other instances where they are accepted. I shan't ask for help again. Good luck! MWEditorial (talk) 05:35, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

@MWEditorial This certainly was not an attempt to discuss your concerns with them; it was just an attempt to "no u" them by copying and pasting their use of Template:Uw-unsourced2 at their talk page. A better way to do so would be to calmly ask for a more detailed explanation as to why they reverted. Regards, User:TheDragonFire300. (Contact me | Contributions). 05:39, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

I'm confused, looking at this diff it seems Neverrainy didn't delete anything, only update the figures and improve the formatting? Orange sticker (talk) 10:06, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

Block needed of block-evading "MARCELIUS MARTIROSIANAS" vandal

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Can an administrator please block User:85.254.97.149? They are evading the recent block placed on their previous IP address 193.219.130.166. They're a long-term vandal who makes bizarre edits to articles and Talk pages including the text "MARCELIUS MARTIROSIANAS." They've been at it for several years between their many blocks. I've recently asked for an edit filter be created to potentially address this but since they've begun editing articles - typically, they mostly edit Talk pages - a block of their new IP address also seems warranted. (Note that I'm not notifying this blatant vandal about this ANI post per WP:RBI.) ElKevbo (talk) 12:04, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User: Sideshow Bob persistent vandalism on Constantine Bodin page

Page: Constantine Bodin (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
User being reported: Sideshow Bob (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Diffs on recent edit warrings:

1. [[56]]- you can add another 100 sources, it won't make them reliable and your edit wrong and unnecessary.
2. [[57]]
3. [[58]]- rv biased intro, maliciously based on dubious sources
4. [[59]]
5. [[60]]

Previous examples:

1. [[61]] - rv eternal nationalist bullshit

The last one is just an example of Side show Bob`s behaviour over the years, constantly insulting and putting nacionalstic slures in their edit summaries, examples [[62]],[[63]], [[64]],[[65]], [[66]], [[67]], [[68]] etc.

Diff of attempt to resolve dispute on article talk page: [[69]], Side show Bob does not participate on talk page

Diff of ANEW notice posted to user's talk page: [[70]]

Comments:

This is going on for several years now, Sideshow Bob continues to vandalise different Wikipedia pages, using WP:battlefield words and excuses on edit summaries to remove reliable sources without any valid explanations on talk pages i.e the last disruptive edits on Constantine Bodin where that they removed J.A. Fine [[71]] [[72]] and Christopher Deliso [[73]] with an excuse that those are tourist guides [[74]], besides that Sideshow Bob used my talk page to leave comments like this [[75]], or the similar aggressive narrative on their tp [[76]], which is clear example of WP:aspersions and obvious case of WP:nothere, not understanding what WP:RS is, breaking the rules of Balkan contagious topic issued by Wiki admins, not using tp for their argumentation, breaking of 3RR rule etc. Theonewithreason (talk) 13:55, 5 June 2024 (UTC)