Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Clarification and Amendment

Arbitration Committee proceedings

• recent changes
• purge this page
• view or discuss this template

Case requests

Currently, there are no requests for arbitration.

[edit]

Open cases

Currently, no arbitration cases are open.

[edit]

Recently closed cases (Past cases)

Case name	Closed
Venezuelan politics	25 May 2024

Clarification and Amendment requests

Request name	Motions	Case	Posted
Amendment request: Conduct in deletion-related editing	Motion	(orig. case)	30 April 2024
Amendment request: Article titles and capitalisation	none	(orig. case)	13 May 2024
Clarification request: Extended confirmed restriction	none	none	29 May 2024

Arbitrator motions

No arbitrator motions are currently open.

Requests for clarification and amendment

Use this section to request clarification or amendment of a closed Arbitration Committee case or decision.

• Requests for clarification are used to ask for further guidance or clarification about an existing completed Arbitration Committee case or decision.
• Requests for amendment are used to ask for an amendment or extension of existing sanctions (for instance, because the sanctions are ineffective, contain a loophole, or no longer cover a sufficiently wide topic); or appeal for the removal of sanctions (including bans).

To file a clarification or amendment request: (you must use this format!)

1. Choose one of the following options and open the page in a new tab or window:
   • Click here to file a request for clarification of an arbitration decision or procedure.
   • Click here to file a request for amendment of an arbitration decision or procedure (including an arbitration enforcement action issued by an administrator, such as a contentious topics restriction).
2. Save your request and check that it looks how you think it should and says what you intended.
3. If your request will affect or involve other users (including any users you have named as parties), you must notify these editors of your submission; you can use {{subst:Arbitration CA notice|SECTIONTITLE}} to do this.
4. Add the diffs of the talk page notifications under the applicable header of the request.

Clarification and Amendment archives
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126

This is not a discussion. Please do not submit your request until it is ready for consideration; this is not a space for drafts, and incremental additions to a submission are disruptive.

Arbitrators or Clerks may summarily remove or refactor discussion without comment.

Requests from blocked or banned users should be made by e-mail directly to the Arbitration Committee.

Only Arbitrators and Clerks may remove requests from this page. Do not remove a request or any statements or comments unless you are in either of these groups. There must be no threaded discussion, so please comment only in your own section. Archived clarification and amendment requests are logged at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Index/Clarification and Amendment requests. Numerous legacy and current shortcuts can be used to more quickly reach this page:

Clarification and Amendment archives
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126

Amendment request: Conduct in deletion-related editing

Initiated by Cunard at 05:48, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

Case or decision affected

Conduct in deletion-related editing arbitration case (t) (ev / t) (w / t) (pd / t)

Clauses to which an amendment is requested

1. Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Conduct in deletion-related editing#TenPoundHammer topic banned (1)

List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request

• Cunard (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (initiator)
• TenPoundHammer (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request

• TenPoundHammer notification

Information about amendment request

• Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Conduct in deletion-related editing#TenPoundHammer topic banned (1)

• Modify to include a topic ban on proposing an article for deletion and turning an article into a redirect

Statement by Cunard

Previous discussions

This was previously discussed in an amendment request closed on 20 April 2024 and on Wikipedia talk:Arbitration/Requests.

Background

Before the 2 August 2022 deletion topic ban, TenPoundHammer nominated numerous articles for proposed deletion and articles for deletion. He also redirected numerous articles in 2022. This link shows the last 500 redirects he did before the 2 August 2022 topic ban. If you search for the text "Tags: New redirect Reverted" on the page, there are 189 results. At least 189 of the redirects he did between April 2022 and July 2022 were reverted.

TenPoundHammer resumed the actions that led me to create Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1101#TenPoundHammer: prods and AfDs, which was closed as "This matter has been escalated to the arbitration committee, which has opened a full case at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Conduct in deletion-related editing on this and other related matters" and is cited as "June 2022 ANI" in this finding of fact.

Evidence

I started a talk page discussion with TenPoundHammer on 2 March 2024 about TenPoundHammer's blanking and redirecting of Monkey-ed Movies (link), Skating's Next Star (link), Monkey Life (link), 2 Minute Drill (game show) (link), and Monsters We Met (link) for lacking sources. I was able to find sources for these articles so reverted the redirects and added the sources. I asked TenPoundHammer to stop blanking and redirecting articles as it was leading to notable topics no longer having articles.

TenPoundHammer continued to redirect articles on notable topics. Between 11 March 2024 and 16 March 2024, TenPoundHammer redirected 18 articles. Of those 18 articles, 14 were about television series (a topic I focus on): 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, and 14. After spending many hours searching for sources, I reverted all 14 redirects and added sources to all 14 articles. For several of the topics (such as Queer Eye for the Straight Girl and Dice: Undisputed), sources could be easily found with a Google search.

Between 20 March 2024 and 21 March 2024, TenPoundHammer redirected three book articles (another topic I focus on): 1, 2, and 3. I reverted the three redirects and added book reviews.

Between 20 March 2024 and 21 March 2024, TenPoundHammer redirected 33 articles. Almost all of those redirects are in the music topic area which I do not focus on. I am concerned about the large number of redirects of topics that could be notable.

On 12 April 2024, TenPoundHammer redirected the television show Las Vegas Garden of Love with the edit summary "unsourced since 2010, time to lose it". I found sources for the article and reverted the redirect. I found two of the sources (The New York Times and Variety) on the first page of a Google search for "Las Vegas Garden of Love ABC". TenPoundHammer previously prodded this same article in May 2022, and another editor contested that prodding ("contest PROD, nom nominated 200 articles in a single day so it's impossible a BEFORE was done for each").

Analysis

Wikipedia:Fait accompli is an applicable principle. Reviewing this volume of redirects consumes substantial editor time. The redirects are leading to numerous notable topics no longer having articles. The redirects prevent the topics from undergoing community review at AfD, which TenPoundHammer is topic banned from.

Blank-and-redirects get significantly less attention than prods and AfDs. Television-related prods and AfDs are listed at Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Television and Wikipedia:WikiProject Television/Article alerts. But blank-and-redirects are not listed anywhere.

It is unclear to me whether the existing topic ban includes proposing articles for deletion. I recommend that the topic ban be expanded to prohibit both proposing articles for deletion and blanking and redirecting pages since there is previous disruptive editing in both areas where he has prodded or redirected a large number of articles about notable topics. This remedy does something similar for a different editor in the same arbitration case.

Here are quotes from three arbitrators about the topic ban in the 2022 proposed decision regarding the redirects and and proposed deletion:

1. "... This TBAN also fails to remedy the issues that appear to be evident with the use of redirects (see Artw's evidence for examples)." (link)

   "... Missing PROD was not intentional on my part but that also can be added." (link)

   • See Artw's evidence about issues with redirects.
2. "First choice, and my interpretation is that this should extend to PROD, given the evidence, even though it seems like a stretch to call most PRODs a discussion. ..." (link)
3. "First choice, extend to PROD." (link)

Cunard (talk) 05:48, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

Blank-and-redirects get significantly less attention than prods and AfDs since they are not listed on article alerts or deletion sorting. The suspended topic ban motion would put the onus on editors to frequently review Special:Contributions/TenPoundHammer to determine whether the disruptive blank-and-redirects have continued rather than put the onus on TenPoundHammer to make a convincing appeal in the future that the disruptive blank-and-redirects won't continue. I do not want to frequently review TenPoundHammer's contributions as it is time-consuming and leads to responses like this. The disruptive blank-and-redirects happened in 2022 and continued during TenPoundHammer's topic ban appeal. Redirects continued as recently as 6 May here and here, one with an edit summary ("Obvious") that doesn't make it clear that a blank-and-redirect happened. There is no recognition in TenPoundHammer's response here that the blank-and-redirects have been disruptive.

The motion does not address proposed deletions. TenPoundHammer wrote "I assumed I was already topic-banned from PRODding articles", while an arbitrator wrote in the topic ban appeal, "I can't see that the current restriction applies to CSD or PROD and nor does this one." I hope that this amendment request can address the status of proposed deletions as it would be best not to need an additional clarification request asking about that.

I would prefer a motion that adds blank-and-redirects and proposed deletions to the existing topic ban rather than a suspended topic ban. Cunard (talk) 05:33, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

Primefac wrote, "some like Cunard may feel that any BLAR is too much". This is inaccurate as I routinely do blank-and-redirects without prior discussion. BLARs become disruptive when an editor continues doing numerous controversial BLARs despite being asked to stop. The BLARs are controversial because many of the topics are notable and sources can be found on the first page of a Google search.

Regarding "repeatedly asking for the hammer to be dropped until they get their desired response", I raised the conduct issue in the topic ban appeal amendment request, but arbitrators did not substantively discuss it. The discussion at Wikipedia talk:Arbitration/Requests indicated that my filing a new amendment request would not have been considered a duplicate. The arbitrators' responses here generally have not called this a duplicate request. Cunard (talk) 07:53, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

Statement by TenPoundHammer

I assumed I was already topic-banned from PRODding articles, so I don't know why that was brought up. (Similarly, I don't know what the ruling is on deprodding but it's historically not been an issue for me, and I personally don't think it would be fair to deny me a chance to say "hey, wait, I can fix this".) Speed has been an issue, as has blunt edit summaries when I redirect something. Lately when I feel there is little to no content to merge, I try to spell out my WP:BEFORE steps in the edit summary when I redirect. I also generally don't unlink the page, to save the hassle if someone like Cunard comes along to revert my redirect and dump in some sources. One reason I don't try to initiate merger discussion is because no matter how hard I try, no one ever seems to respond. Witness Talk:Regis_Philbin#Proposed_merge_of_Joy_Philbin_into_Regis_Philbin, which opened two months ago and has had several reminders, but not a single person has lifted a finger. How long is that discussion going to gather dust? "There is no deadline" doesn't mean "do nothing and hope the problem somehow fixes itself". If I am to be topic-banned from WP:BLARing, then how can I get some action going in merger discussions? Since again, every fucking time I try, nobody acts like I'm even there -- but then two seconds after I give in and finally merge/redirect the damn thing, someone swoops in to revert me. I'm damned if I do and damned if I don't. Ten Pound Hammer • ^{(What did I screw up now?)} 23:29, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

Statement by Star Mississippi

I am Involved here. TPH and I came up together on this project and occasionally ran into one another on country talk pages although it has been some time since we substantively interacted. I also have the utmost respect for Cunard's research at AfD in that they not only say "sources exist" but find and annotate them for participants to assess. This is especially helpful personally in east Asian language sourcing. That said, Cunard's case here is strong. TPH sees it as their duty to clean up the project, but I don't think their strong feelings are backed by our policies, nor is there a pressing need to remove this content. The project will not collapse and these are mostly not BLPs. If they are, someone else can handle it. I believe TPH's topic ban should be expanded to include BLAR which is a form of deletion. I have no strong feelings on PROD personally. Star Mississippi 01:17, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

S Marshall

Suggest:

• TPH may not redirect more than one article per day.
• TPH may not PROD more than one article per day.
• For the purposes of this restriction a "day" refreshes at midnight UTC.

Statement by Jclemens

• Support expanding the topic ban to BLARs. I really wanted to not do this, but TPH's comments above are very much in WP:IDHT territory. While editors are absolutely allowed to focus on specific aspects of the encyclopedia and its processes, TPH has been here long enough that using Google to assess for sources per BEFORE and including them (even perfunctorily on the talk page for others to edit into the article) rather than redirecting clearly notable topics is a reasonable expectation. Again, BEFORE-ish behavior is neither required nor expected outside TPH's self-chosen context of encyclopedic cleanup. Because using BLARs for deletion is a semi-end-run around the existing topic ban, expecting BEFORE behavior is not a too-restrictive burden. The fact is, TPH has been found to have used other deletion processes without appropriate discretion, and is now shown to have been doing the same thing using a different process. Again, this is not a novel problem, but a topic-banned user who is skating as close as possible to the topic ban and displaying ongoing problematic behavior. Jclemens (talk) 03:08, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

Re: Billed Mammal: This is not a proposal for a general rule. This is a note that TPH has been engaging in less-than-optimal deletion conduct that, had he continued to engage in it over time, could result in a topic ban, in fact did, and TPH has continued to engage in deletion-like behavior within the limits of that topic ban. I'll note that BLAR notes If editors cannot agree, the content issues should be discussed at the relevant talk page, and other methods of dispute resolution should be used, such as restoring the article and nominating the article for Wikipedia:Articles for deletion. Since TPH is topic banned from AfD, nominating contested BLARs for deletion is off the table. Jclemens (talk) 20:31, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

Statement by BilledMammal

TPH has been here long enough that using Google to assess for sources per BEFORE and including them (even perfunctorily on the talk page for others to edit into the article) rather than redirecting clearly notable topics is a reasonable expectation.

While a WP:BEFORE search may be a good idea, it isn’t one that there is a consensus to require - and it is one that there shouldn’t be a consensus to require until we place similar requirements, retroactively applying, on the creation of articles.

Wikipedia:Fait accompli is an applicable principle.

If we’re going to apply FAIT to the deletion of articles we need to first - and retroactively - apply it to their creation, otherwise we will have a situation where massive numbers of articles have been created in violation of FAIT but are almost impossible to address.

Further, I’m not convinced this is a FAIT issue; addressing previous FAIT issues is not itself a FAIT violation, even if done at a similar scale and rate.

Statement by Flatscan

The arbitrators may like to consider the itemized wording of another user's topic ban (linked in Cunard's request) or TenPoundHammer topic banned (2) (did not pass). They both call out article redirection explicitly.

Regarding WP:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive974#TenPoundHammer (2018 community topic ban, linked by Maxim), its closing statement does not mention redirects, and the closer clarified them as excluded within a few weeks.

I found four related diffs – none involving redirects – in Special:PageHistory/Wikipedia:Editing restrictions/Placed by the Wikipedia community. They are consistent with WP:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Conduct in deletion-related editing/Evidence#TenPoundHammer has been subject to ANI discussion on multiple occasions.

1. Enacted January 2018
2. Exception added February 2018
3. Reduced/replaced August 2018
4. Removed October 2019

Redirecting a page is not deletion.

• WP:Redirect#Redirects that replace previous articles (guideline, shortcut WP:BLAR): If other editors disagree with this blanking, its contents can be recovered from page history, as the article has not been deleted.
• WP:Deletion policy#Redirection (policy, shortcut WP:ATD-R) is a subsection under Alternatives to deletion.
• Cunard was able to revert TenPoundHammer's redirects without adminstrator assistance.

Flatscan (talk) 04:26, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

Statement by {other-editor}

Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the amendment request or provide additional information.

Conduct in deletion-related editing: Clerk notes

This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Conduct in deletion-related editing: Arbitrator views and discussion

• I find the examples of WP:BLAR that Cunard presents to be troubling forms of deletion when taken in the full context. Cunard often presents more obscure sources or coverage that can be rather short but that is certainly not the case with several of the examples shown here. As noted in the case WP:BEFORE is not required but considered good practice when the main concern is lack of notability or sources. but for this editor, with this past, the lack of BEFORE when some high quality sourcing was available strikes me as an issue. Barkeep49 (talk) 04:02, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
• TenPoundHammer was topic banned because of disruptive behavior in AfD discussions as well as issues around the closing of discussions. While Cunard has presented a not-unreasonable concern that TPH might not be the best at finding sources for articles, I am not seeing any major issues with conduct around the blank-and-redirect issue; redirects that have been reverted tend to stay reverted, without evidence of argument or backlash. These redirects also appear to be made in good faith. In other words, I do not think we are at the point where the BLAR activity by TenPoundHammer has reached a "disruptive editing" or "conduct-unbecoming" level that would require further sanctions. Primefac (talk) 13:19, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
• I would support expanding the topic ban --Guerillero ^{Parlez Moi} 20:53, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
• I'm sympathetic to Primefac's analysis, but I draw a different conclusion. There is an existing topic ban from deletion discussions, and while it is not explicitly "broadly construed", and nor does blanking and redirect truly fall under "discussion", I think there is a reasonable concern raised to do with TenPoundHammer and the deletion process. In a different context, I would be more amenable to treating the situation as not-quite-yet disruptive editing or conduct unbecoming, but considering the existing topic ban, as well as a previous community sanction to ban TenPoundHammer from all deletion activities, I'm in favour of expanding the topic ban, potentially to cover deletion activities similarly to the community sanction. Maxim (talk) 15:22, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
• This has been posted here for a long time, and I want to get this moving. TPH seems to have stopped the WP:BLARing behaviour that led to the disruption, as the last instance I can find is May 4. However, I would like to propose a motion to get this closed but also allow for a faster response if this happens again. The idea for this type of motion was suggested by another arbitrator, so I cannot take credit for it:

Motion: TenPoundHammer suspended topic ban for blank-and-redirecting (BLARing)

TenPoundHammer (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is indefinitely topic banned from removing all content in an article and replacing it with a redirect (commonly known as a blank-and-redirect, or BLAR). This topic ban will be suspended for a period of 12 months. This topic ban may be unsuspended and imposed onto TenPoundHammer if disruption by BLARing restarts, as determined by any of: (1) a consensus of administrators on WP:AE, (2) at least two arbitrators indicating "support" to unsuspend at WP:ARCA, with no opposition from other arbitrators indicated up to 48 hours after the second support, or (3) a majority of active arbitrators at WP:ARCA if there is opposition as indicated in condition 2. After 12 months, if it has not been imposed, the topic ban will be automatically lifted.

Other arbitrators feel free to modify the wording or to propose another motion below. Z1720 (talk) 03:58, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

I know I said it above but I am not at a point where a sanction is necessary. There is also the issue of deciding what "disruption by BLARing" means; some like Cunardeditors may feel that any BLAR is too much, where editors like myself may find the current non-response to reverted BLARing to be a perfectly acceptable part of the BOLD editing process. I also do not know if we should open the door for someone repeatedly asking for the hammer to be dropped until they get their desired response. Primefac (talk) 14:41, 28 May 2024 (UTC) Updated, unfair to Cunard to call them out like this. Primefac (talk) 08:22, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

I've done some wordsmithing here. I think I can live with this restriction on this editor given their track record with deletion and related processes (which I see as including BLAR). Barkeep49 (talk) 15:36, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

Amendment request: Article titles and capitalisation

Initiated by HouseBlaster at 02:23, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

Case or decision affected

Article titles and capitalisation arbitration case (t) (ev / t) (w / t) (pd / t)

Clauses to which an amendment is requested

1. § Contentious topic designation

List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request

• HouseBlaster (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (initiator)

Information about amendment request

• § Contentious topic designation

• Split into two separate CTOP designations

Statement by HouseBlaster

The Manual of Style and Article title policy are jointly authorized contentious topics. Speaking for myself, I have {{Contentious topics/aware|mos}} on my talk page, because I was (and am) aware that the MOS is a CTOP. I was unaware until earlier today that article titles are also a CTOP bundled with the MOS CTOP, even though I was technically aware of the article title CTOP.

It seems that others are also unaware (in the conventional sense) that article titles are CTOPICs; at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case#Persistent WP:IDONTLIKEIT behavior in WP:NCROY discussions it was about three days and 26KB of discussion before Guerrillero pointed out that article titles are already designated as a CTOP.

The MOS and article titles are related, but distinct, issues. I think they should be split into seperate CTOPs to reflect the fact that they are distinct issues. HouseBlaster (talk · he/him) 02:23, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

Regarding giv[ing] administrators an awful lot of discretion, I think that is the point of CTOPs: they give a lot of discretion to admins in areas that have historically been problematic. If admins abuse that discretion, that is a separate problem. We already have at least one CTOP (infoboxes) which covers particular discussions about an article rather than the article itself. HouseBlaster (talk · he/him) 15:21, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

Regarding Barkeep's comment, I should have been aware (in the conventional sense) that I was indicating AWAREness of article titles. That was completely my mistake. However, I still find it strange that this is a double-topic CTOP, and it is weird that I have to notify people who have never interacted with the MOS about its designation as a CTOP because they are involved in a dispute concerning article titles (or vice versa). HouseBlaster (talk · he/him) 15:27, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

Statement by Extraordinary Writ

Splitting the remedy is probably more trouble than it's worth. But while we're here: there hasn't been a logged sanction under this case since 2020, and that's probably because its scope is so narrow that most title- or MOS-related disruption isn't covered. Honestly there's a strong argument for just repealing it altogether, although the timing may not be right for that. An alternative would be to expand it to include RMs and the like (certainly there have been plenty of issues there), but that would give administrators an awful lot of discretion. The status quo of having the CTOP cover just the policy/guideline pages (which are often less contentious than the RMs) doesn't really make sense to me, though, and the lack of use suggests it's not doing much of value. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 03:13, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

Statement by SarekOfVulcan

I would oppose splitting them, because the application of the MOS guidelines to the article titles policy was a large part of the controversy that caused me to file the case in the first place. See also Comet Hale–Bopp. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 18:48, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Statement by {other-editor}

Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the amendment request or provide additional information.

Article titles and capitalisation: Clerk notes

This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

• Recuse, obviously. HouseBlaster (talk · he/him) 02:58, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

Article titles and capitalisation: Arbitrator views and discussion

• FWIW, I'm not actually sure that the sanction from 2020 qualified under the scope of these sanctions. I would ping the admin who placed them but that admin is me (I thought they did at the time but have since come to doubt that). That said I've resisted including these when we've proposed areas to rescind because I know controversey remains. So where that leaves us here, I'm not sure, other than I wouldn't want to split them. In terms of not understanding their scope, the awareness template mentions Manual of Style and Article Topics so I think understanding that scope matters for the person saying their aware? Barkeep49 (talk) 14:44, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
• I agree with Extraordinary Writ that splitting this CTOP is more trouble than it is worth. I would be willing to rescind the CTOP for article titles, as MOS pretty much covers the same territory. If there is still controversy in this area as Barkeep suggests, then it seems like the CTOP is not addressing the concerns if it is not being used. Z1720 (talk) 18:43, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
• If it's an issue of the wording of the CTOP being ambiguous then that should be clarified, but the MoS and the Wikipedia:Article titles policy both are similar enough that I don't think they need to be split. If there's evidence that the scope isn't working that should be addressed by expanding or narrowing it. - Aoidh (talk) 03:58, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

Clarification request: Extended confirmed restriction

There is a consensus among active arbitrators that the close of the conduct discussion was correct given that the initator did not have extended confirmed and the discussion fell with-in an extended confirmed restriction topic area. Barkeep49 (talk) 15:16, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Initiated by Ivanvector at 13:20, 25 May 2024 (UTC) Case or decision affected WP:ARBECR List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request: Ivanvector (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) (initiator) Valereee (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) PicturePerfect666 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) Bugghost (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) Yoyo360 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request Valereee PicturePerfect666 Bugghost Yoyo360 Statement by Ivanvector This request concerns the extended confirmed restriction and its applicability to complaints about user conduct within an affected topic. A few days ago, editor BugGhost initiated a complaint at ANI regarding editor PicturePerfect666's conduct in discussions at Talk:Eurovision Song Contest 2024 (ANI permalink). The complaint was entirely focused on PicturePerfect666's allegedly tendentious conduct with regard to information critical of Israel's participation in the song contest, reflective of real-world criticism and activism regarding Israel's ongoing invasion of Palestine. BugGhost specifically asked that PicturePerfect666 be topic banned. Since BugGhost is not extendedconfirmed, and the complaint entirely concerns conduct within that topic, I advised that the complaint could not proceed, but made no comment on its merit. My rationale for closing is that non-extendedconfirmed editors are not permitted to edit in topics where ARBECR has been imposed in good faith, other than talk page edit requests, therefore (in my view) since a conduct complaint is not an edit request, it is not permitted for non-extendedconfirmed editors to file them regarding conduct within the topic, nor to comment on them. On this I would like clarification, because I agree with some implicit criticism on my talk page that it is unreasonable. I have listed Valereee as a party because she added the contentious topics notice to the talk page on 28 December 2023 (diff), but she is not involved at all in the incidents described. PicturePerfect666 and BugGhost should be self-explanatory, and Yoyo360 is an extendedconfirmed editor who asked about "adopting" (my words) BugGhost's complaint. -- Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 13:20, 25 May 2024 (UTC) Sean.hoyland is referring to an earlier ANI filing which is also related to this same situation. An administrator not named here removed one comment by a non-EC editor from the Eurovision talk page. Seeing this, PicturePerfect666 then took it upon themselves to remove other comments from non-EC editors; Yoyo360 objected to one of their comments being removed, and that led PicturePerfect666 to file the complaint that Sean.hoyland is referring to. At the time that I reviewed that ANI complaint, Yoyo360 had 491 edits on this wiki (and as I mentioned, roughly 25,000 on French Wikipedia) and there were no other issues with their edits besides technically violating ARBECR, so it seemed to me that a reasonable way to resolve the complaint was to grant the clearly experienced editor EC "early". Had I not done so they would have been automatically granted EC by the software with 9 more edits, which they achieved later that day anyway. I don't think that this is relevant to the clarification request. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 20:16, 25 May 2024 (UTC) BugGhost is very clearly a new user interested in contributing to Wikipedia in good faith, even if we don't assume they are (which is still a policy by the way). We told them that they can't edit the topic they're interested in (a music competition, of all things) until they have 500 edits. They accepted that and went off to find something else to do, and now we're saying "oh, those 500 edits aren't the right kind of edits, do 500 more". And their response to that is still not complaining, they're just asking what they can do better. Well, what is it, then? Or are we just going to let them flail about the project for a while until they ask again and we still say no? How many more edits are we going to demand before we accept that they're here to contribute? How long before their already exemplary patience runs out, and they decide Wikipedia isn't worth the effort? What is the point of this exercise if it's not moving the goalposts just so that a genuinely interested new user can't participate? And for what? ECR is meant to prevent disruption, just like all of our enforcement mechanisms; our rules are not meant to be enforced just because they exist, and no rule should exist in the first place if it's only used to gatekeep portions of the encyclopedia to users we individually approve. This policing of new users' edits isn't teaching anyone anything other than that Wikipedia hates new users, and it's doing far more harm to the project than any newbie with a spellchecker has ever done nor will do. @Bugghost: I am sorry for my role in this pointless focus on your edit count overshadowing your genuine complaint about an (allegedly) properly disruptive user. You're not the problem here. The Wikipedia that I've given nearly 15 years to is better than this, and it will be there waiting for you on the other side. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 18:39, 27 May 2024 (UTC) Statement by Valereee Statement by PicturePerfect666 Statement by Bugghost As the newbie here that this request is concerning, I'm not completely certain what kind of comment is expected of me here, so I apologise if anything I say is irrelevant or out of scope. Before writing the AN/I, I looked at the ARBECR guidelines and didn't see any wording that said that my filing was against the spirit of it. My interpretation was that AN/I wasn't a page related to any specific contentious topic, and the filing I was making was about a specific user's conduct, not about the contentious topic itself, and so it wasn't against the spirit of the restriction. I still stand by that - I made sure that my filing did not in any way weigh in on arguments of the related contentious topic at hand, just the behaviour of the user as shown by their edits. My filing was neutral on the contentious topic itself, without editorialising and without any discussion of assumed motive behind the behaviour - only their edits were brought forward. A consequence from this closure is that raising an AN/I about someone who is being disruptive on a contentious issue is harder than raising an AN/I about someone who is being disruptive on a non-contentious issue. If PicturePerfect666's disruptive behaviour on the Eurovision page was instead about a different topic (say, the Dutch entrant's surprise disqualification), then an AN/I filing from myself would have gone ahead, because that part of the page is not under the ARBECR. But seeing as they were disruptive about a contentious issue, they have been able to deflect my concerns - which seems counter to the ARBECR's aims of reducing disruption on contentious topics. I think that the ARBECR is a good idea but can be hard to interpret, and has the ability to dismiss reasonable well intentioned actions. In my view, it can contradict the "assume good faith" mantra, as assumption that I filed the AN/I accurately and in good faith was "trumped" by the fact my edit count being too low. As I said on IvanVector's talk page, I spent a long amount of time compiling a long list of the user's disruptive behaviour for the filing, including very specific diffs to outline each example, and it being dismissed based wholly on my edit count was very demoralising. As backed up by Yoyo360 suggestion to "adopt" it, the AN/I has some merits worth considering. BugGhost🎤 16:07, 25 May 2024 (UTC) RE: @Bishonen's gaming concerns - I have been doing typo fixing recently, but it's worth noting that I started doing this on the 24th of May (not on the 19th, the day I received the EC notification, as was suggested). After I received the EC notification, I simply stopped interacting with the Eurovision talk page, as was suggested by the admin that posted it, and focused on my editing priorities (mainly the WPF article, as @Novem Linguae mentioned in their comment - which is where I have spent the vast majority of my time as an editor, far more than Eurovision or typo-fixing). I want to stress that I have been doing these typo changes as a real task and in good faith. It's true that before this I hadn't done any large-scale spelling based changes, but as a relatively new user, I have been doing a lot of "firsts" recently. I wasn't doing these changes in secret - I added this mission to my userpage, added it to the adopt-a-typo page, have suggested a page with 'pre-determined' in the title to be moved, and gave advice to a new editor who was prone to typos. I was under the impression that this was a regular Wikipedia-editor task, based on the adopt-a-typo page, the wikignome page, and seeing other editors with repeated spell-checking edits in their user contribs. I know how this will sound given the circumstances, but I actually stopped doing typo changes yesterday (when I was at roughly 450 edits) because I thought if I hit 500 while this situation was happening it would only complicate matters, and went back to slower-paced editing instead in order to not become extended confirmed. I also have no desperate need to hit 500, because PP666 has not been disruptive since the AN/I was filed, and it sounds like Yoyo360 would have "re-raised" my AN/I whether I became EC or not, and overall the Eurovision page is solving the disruption problems without any input from me. I started typo-fixing after the point "gaming the system" would have been useful to me. Regarding whether "pre-determined" is a typo - I researched it to double check prior to fixing, and found multiple sources implying that it should be unhyphenated as one word [1] [2], and similarly for "pre-suppose", as the rule (as I understand), is that you hyphenate "pre-" only when the following word begins with an E or I sound, or if it's a new compound not itself in the dictionary (eg. "pre-dinner snack"). I do 100% understand Bishonen's concerns though, and seeing as there's questions about my motives, and whether it's even a typo, I won't resume these edits until I get some go-ahead that it's ok to do. BugGhost🪲👻 15:34, 27 May 2024 (UTC) Statement by Yoyo360 I don't have much to add actually. I don't edit much on wiki:en, I'm mostly watching the talk pages of the Eurovision wikiproject to inspire me on the French-language counterpart (which is quasi inactive). I only come in when discussions have relevance for topics I also could add on wiki:fr and I noticed PP666 behaviour in the past weeks. I concur with everything BugGhost noted in their AN/I, they argued the case way better than I ever could. Noticing the topic had been closed due to the extended confirmed restrictions, I put myself forward to push the AN/I to be treated (as I now have the EC status on wiki:en) asking if it could be reopened in my name. I even have a few things to add to it but that's rather minor compared to the rest and off-topic here I think. Yoyo360 (talk) 15:02, 25 May 2024 (UTC) Statement by Selfstudier My rationale for closing is that non-extendedconfirmed editors are not permitted to edit in topics where ARBECR has been imposed in good faith, other than talk page edit requests, therefore (in my view) since a conduct complaint is not an edit request, it is not permitted for non-extendedconfirmed editors to file them regarding conduct within the topic, nor to comment on them That is my experience, see Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive356#Selfstudier "As a non-EC editor, you essentially have no standing to make edits related to the topic. You can make an edit request, but any other editor can remove it, even without providing reason. Further, making a complaint against another editor as a non-EC editor in the WP:ARBPIA area is fully not allowed."· So I would agree, it's only logical. Selfstudier (talk) 14:55, 25 May 2024 (UTC) Statement by Sean.hoyland I think the closing was entirely appropriate and I agree with Selfstudier's statement. However, I think it is fair to say that the situation with respect to Yoyo360 at the time of the complaint posted by PicturePerfect666 at ANI is more complicated than "Yoyo360 is an extendedconfirmed editor". They were granted the privilege early (from an enwiki perspective) because, as the log says, they are a "10-year-old user with over 25,000 edits across all projects". This seems reasonable, pragmatic and it resolved the issue (although I'm sure imaginative people could cite it as yet another example of anti-Israel bias or rewarding complainers etc.), but for me, it's another reminder that none of us really know (based on evidence) the best way to implement/enforce EC restrictions in ARBPIA, how strictly they should be implemented, and that there is a lot of (costly) subjectivity and fuzziness involved at the moment. This is by no means a criticism or an endorsement of anything that happened in that thread by the way. I have no idea how to figure out how EC rules should work in practice to produce the best result. Sean.hoyland (talk) 16:02, 25 May 2024 (UTC) On gaming, as far as I can tell (in ARBPIA anyway), the notion of gaming to acquire the EC privilege only becomes useful after a person has become extendedconfirmed and you can see what they did with it. Statements about potential gaming before someone has reached 500 edits are usually not verifiable (e.g. unreliable inferences about intent) and not based on agreed methods to reliably distinguish between gaming edits and normal edits (probably because we can't really do that without the benefit of post-EC hindsight). It's true that gaming happens in ARBPIA and that the gaming vs non-gaming signals can sometimes be distinguished, e.g. here, where all of the plots that look like gaming, anonymized ARBPIA editors 2,5,6 and 7, are for editors blocked as sockpuppets. But regardless, I don't think there is much utility in raising gaming questions until after someone becomes extendedconfirmed and there is post-EC activity evidence to look at. To do so asks questions that can't be answered without a lot of handwaving fuzziness about revision size, necessity, constructiveness, gnoming-ness, character witness-like statements etc. AGF until there is a reason not to seems like the best approach to gnoming-like pre-EC edits. Sean.hoyland (talk) 07:33, 28 May 2024 (UTC) I'll add some quick responses to Ivanvector's kindness and frustration from a different perspective (as someone only active in ARBPIA nowadays, and not to make content edits). "no rule should exist in the first place if it's only used to gatekeep portions of the encyclopedia to users we individually approve." - WP:SOCK could be considered to be an example of such a rule. Many of the "interested in contributing to Wikipedia"/collateral damage-type arguments used against ARBECR could also be used against SOCK if you only consider the edits and exclude value judgements of the person making the edits. But the SOCK rule is enforced pretty consistently even though it is often much harder to tell whether someone is a sock than whether they are extendedconfirmed or their action complies with ARBECR, and even though it is probably not possible to measure whether blocking socks has a net positive or net negative impact on content etc. "it's doing far more harm to the project than..." This might be true, but I've not seen any evidence that anyone knows how to measure it. I have a more positive view, probably because I'm only active in ARBPIA where the costs of not having or not enforcing the rules are obvious. To me, the benefits seem to outweigh the costs, with the caveat that most of the harm is probably not visible. The rules also introduce new costs because, although 'edit request' points at WP:EDITXY, what constitutes an edit request is, in practice, in the eye of the beholder. This might be bad, or good. Hard to tell. I think ToBeFree's view that "This may be unfair or unreasonable in individual cases without being a general problem" applies to the arbitration remedies for ARBPIA in general. If there are better solutions, they could be proposed and tested. Sean.hoyland (talk) 13:54, 28 May 2024 (UTC) Statement by Bishonen After Bugghost was informed on May 19 about the EC restriction on Eurovision Song Contest 2024 and told they had "nowhere near 500 edits", they have started what looks like an attempt to game the 500 edits restriction by doing a lot of simple spelling corrections and are by this means now rapidly approaching the 500. In many cases the changes aren't even corrections — they changed the form pre-determined to predetermined in hundreds of articles yesterday, even though both forms are acceptable, and similarly changed lots of instances of pre-suppose to presuppose, where also both forms are acceptable. They made no spelling-"correction" edits before they were made aware of the EC rule for the Arab–Israeli conflict. I like to AGF, but this is ridiculous. See WP:GAME. Bishonen | tålk 10:40, 27 May 2024 (UTC). Statement by Novem Linguae Bugghost has been rewriting the article Windows Presentation Foundation over the last week or so. In my mind he is a talented newer editor that is doing good content creation and article cleanup work. In light of the gaming concerns above, I'd like to make sure the positive aspects of this editor are also considered. Thank you. –Novem Linguae (talk) 11:18, 27 May 2024 (UTC) Statement by {other-editor} Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should opine whether and how the Committee should clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information. Extended confirmed restriction: Clerk notes This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals). Extended confirmed restriction: Arbitrator views and discussion One of the issues that led to ECR applying the way it does in this topic area were attempts by new accounts to weaponize our enforcement mechanisms. So while Eurovision 2024 as a whole does not, in my opinion, fall into ECR, edits relating to Israel's participation does as it is clearly WP:BROADLY construed in the topic area. As such non-ECR may not make enforcement requests There's also the past precedent of ArbCom granting ECR to people it was permitting to participate in an arbitraton process that would otherwise be ECR. Barkeep49 (talk) 15:52, 25 May 2024 (UTC) Beyond what others have stated, let's not lose eye on the ball here: if there is gaming (and I agree on the whole with the analysis that there is not) it's to edit a particular part of a Eurovision article and not say Israel–Hamas war. I'm not pretending that there is nothing contentious about Israel's participation in Eurovision 2024 but even with a contentious topic area there are differing levels of things. Barkeep49 (talk) 18:54, 27 May 2024 (UTC) The closure text at [3] appears to be correct. This may be unfair or unreasonable in individual cases without being a general problem to me. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 00:56, 27 May 2024 (UTC) I agree with my colleagues above: The ECR restriction is to prevent weaponization. It is also to encourage new users to get experience with Wikipedia policies and processes before filing accusations. If someone with ECR wants to adopt it, that is their prerogative, but they will also take responsibility for the filing. I have no concerns with this Ivanvector's close at ANI. I agree that Eurovision 2024 as a whole is not under ARBECR, but topics about Israel/Palestine are. Bugghost I encourage you to return to editing at a quicker pace if you desire, as you obtaining the ECR user right while this is open will not concern me. Z1720 (talk) 16:56, 27 May 2024 (UTC) Concur with the views above; I would just add that as I see it I do entirely agree with Ivanvector's statement that BugGhost is very clearly a new user interested in contributing to Wikipedia in good faith. firefly ( t · c ) 18:43, 27 May 2024 (UTC) (edit conflict) I also agree with my colleagues, and am concerned as Ivanvector is that participants here are moving the goalposts inappropriately. It was a policy-backed close of an otherwise good-faith report from an editor who is well-meaning but has not yet met the Extended Confirmed level of participation. Primefac (talk) 18:45, 27 May 2024 (UTC) The way the restriction is currently worded and the way it is handled in practice (for example granting EC so that editors can participate in case requests) is in line with how Ivanvector closed the AN/I report. The first sentence in the report establishes that PIA is a major factor of the AN/I report itself, falling within its scope. - Aoidh (talk) 19:17, 27 May 2024 (UTC)