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Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents
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Jonharojjashi, part 2

Jonharojjashi (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

TLDR: These past months Jonharojjashi has been making disruptive off-Wiki coordinations to disrupt Wikipedia together with other users, many being socks/indeffed due to their disruption.

Since I had a screenshot of Jonharojjashi trying to recruit someone into their Discord group for Wikipedia coordination (which they outright denied [1], not the best choice when I have a literal picture, makes you look even more suspicious) I took it to ArbCom per WP:OUTING. They recommended me to come back here to ANI. I believe all these actions were done through the Discord.

These past months there have been a surge of "new" users making the same WP:TENDENTIOUS edits, making use of the same (poor/misused) sources, all in India-related (generally war/battle) articles, many of them being the exact same topic, including poorly written *insert Indian victory here* articles. Because of this, I initially made two SPIs against Jonharojjashi's and co. [2] [3], but they were mostly fruitless.

Jonharojjashi and the indeffed user Mr Anonymous 699

1. Both accounts created roughly three months between each other. Their EIU [4] shows some quite suspicious stuff, including them edit warring together at Muslim conquests in the Indian subcontinent and kinda repeating each other [5]. Another user who was edit warring with them in that article was Indo12122, a brand new user who is now indeffed (I'll get to that next sub-section).
2. Mr Anonymous 699 and Jonharojjashi also edit warred together at Kambojas in a WP:TENDENTIOUS manner [6]
3. At Kanishka's war with Parthia, Mr Anonymous 699 restored [7] the pov addition of Jonharojjashi.

Jonharojjashi and the sock Indo12122

1. As mentioned above, Indo12122 was also part of the edit warring efforts of Jonharojjashi and the now indeffed user Mr Anonymous 699 at Muslim conquests in the Indian subcontinent [8] [9] [10] [11]
2. After I reverted one of Indo12122's socks, Mr Anonymous 699 randomly reverted me at Chola invasion of Kedah [12]
3. Jonharojjashi made a WP:POVFORK variant of Kingdom of Khotan [13], trying to push a legendary story obviously not supported by WP:RS to Indianize the Kingdom of Khotan. Just coincidentally not long ago one of the socks of Indo12122 also attempted to Indianize the topic in the article itself [14]. More proof that this can't all be a coincidence.
4. When multiple concerns were made over the article at Talk:Chandragupta II's Campaign of Balkh (created by Shakib ul hassan), Indo12122's sock Magadhan3933 suddenly appeared and started defending it. Whats even more suspicious, Magadhan3933 (Indo12122) also created literally the same article Draft:Campaigns of Chandragupta II Vikramaditya two days after Shakib ul hassan, which was even randomly edited by Jonharojjashi [15] [16]

Jonharojjashi and the sock Shakib ul hassan

1. Jonharojjashi has a history of making poorly made/sourced POV battle/war articles which conveniently result in the (often decisive) victory for an Indian entity. They initially made such a poor article Vikramaditya's west Oxus valley campaign, which not only use similar citations (Muzaffar and Fodor who are not even WP:RS) as Chandragupta II's Campaign of Balkh by brand new user Shakib ul hassan, but even another user noted that they were quite similar in the comment of the former article; "This seems quite similar to Chandragupta II's Campaign of Balkh, is it the same campaign?".
2. Like Jonharojjashi, Shakib ul hassan also misuses sources, only using the part that satisfies their POV and omitting the rest of what it says as noted by me here [17] [18]. They also both randomly requiested the protection of Chandragupta II's Campaign of Balkh [19] [20] under the false reason of "vandalism" (I'm not sure they understand what the word means).
3. Brand new and now indeffed user HistoricPilled, is a sock of User:Thewikiuser1999, and has a very similar EIA [21] to all these users. As seen in the edit history of Maratha–Sikh Clashes, HistoricPilled and Shakib ul hassan build on each others edits for example. At Bajirao I, they edit warred together [22] [23].

Jonharojjashi and the sock Melechha and indeffed user Aryan330

1. Melechha created a wikitable in Ahom–Mughal conflicts [24], which was some days after promptly edited by Jonharojjashi [25]
2. Same here; Melechha creates a Wikitable at Luso–Maratha War (1729–1732) [26], then its heavily edited by Jonharojjashi [27]
3. And the same here again, Melechha creates a Wikitable at Dogra–Tibetan war [28], then heavily edited by Jonharojjashi [29]
4. Indeffed user Aryan330 and Melechha's sock EditorPandit edited warred at Maratha–Portuguese War (1683–1684) [30] [31]. Guess who joined them later? That is right, Jonharojjashi [32]
5. Melechha's sock Msangharak trying to save the then POV infested Kanishka's war with Parthia by Jonharojjashi after it got nominated for deletion [33] [34] [35] [36] [37]

Jonharojjashi and the sock Rowlatt11

Jonharojjashi more or less restored [38] the unsourced edit [39] by Rowlatt11's sock Daayush.

Closing remark

In made response to my previous ANI [40], Jonharojjashi made a ridiculous SPI [41] of me and many other users who had called them out for their disruption. Instead of addressing the points, they simply dismissed the whole report as "WP:HOUNDING" and "biting newcomers", so I'm not going to reply to their incoming comments here unless an admin wants me to.

There is no way that these all coincidences, how many indeffed users/socks have Jonharojjashi interacted with in such a short time? Especially when I have a literally picture of Jonharojjashi trying to recruit members and denying it. These indeffed users/socks are no doubt members of the Discord. Jonharojjashi and the Discord they lead should not be allowed to edit here. --HistoryofIran (talk) 21:59, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

So this is the third time HistoryofIran has distressed me with his unfruitful SPIs and ANIs, these several attempts made by them to indef me, shows how much they are craved. If they can't prove me doing On-wiki canvassing then they are trying to get me blocked for doing alleged off wiki canvassing. Nevertheless I'll again refute all the points made by historyofIran for me doing any kind of sockpuppetry or meatpuppetry.

"I believe all these actions were done through the Discord. Yes, you believe, I don't know what you have got to prove me doing Off-wiki canvassing but feel free to show all of those unsubstantiated evidence to ArbCom. And they will just shut your case just like your other cases were closed as those were nothing but unrelated call and two different users.

Anyone can claim that they have got some literal pictures and screenshots of tagging/meatpuppetry even the nom can furnish such pictures because as we know you and ImperialAficionado have been trying to indef me and don't know how many newcomers have been indeffed because of your teamwork (not defending the guilty but have seen them tagging on multiple occasions). Note that HistoryofIran has got some personal issues with me in the past so it's obvious that he'd form a prejudice towards me even though he has been proven wrong and caught of lying just to demean me. According to them, every article made by me is poorly written/sourced but he has been proven wrong multiple times and as I said even caught of lying.

Now coming to the HistoryofIran's attempt to link me with these indeffed accounts and previously these accounts were proven to be unrelated with me.

1. HistoryofIran himself yelled that the difference between the creation of my account and Mr. Anonymous 699's account is more than 3 months, considering such a huge gap doesn't even call for a suspicion that this account is somewhat related to me moreover a check user will confirm this. Anyone can spy and can see others' activity so it's no surprise that they have been following me and indulged in any edit warring. And what is pov addition of Johnrajjoshi? It's clearly a sourced addition which is still present in the article body of

Kanishka's war with Parthia Why are you still lying?

1. 2 Indo12122 and Mr. Anonymous 699 could be a pair of sock but to say that just because a sock account is related to another suspect doesn't mean that they could be related to me. In fact I was the victim of unattributed usage of my contents in Chandragupta II's Campaign of Balkha the creator of this page Shakib ul hassan copied my content without giving any attributions. This proves that these suspected users were spying on my works and even published their own article after copying mine without my consent and instead of grouping me with them, historyofiran should group these suspected users with themselves.
2. The wikitables created by Melechha were on the hot articles which means those articles are watched by hundred thousands per month so it'd be obvious that my and other wiki editor's attention would get there but to say that we are connected to each other through sockpuppetry is a baseless allegation and perhaps historyofIran has forgot about their tagging with ImperialAficionado and DeepstoneV and how they were tagging with each other on various occasions [42]. If I had done such coordinated taggings with these alleged suspected users then I'm sure historyofIran would have found more ways to get me indeffed. I had made a SPI on ImperialAficionado by showing how these users are tagging/allying with each other and have made a sect and group against newcomers.
3. more or less? Just stop suspecting me with some random sock users. There is a bold difference in these edits, in mine [43] I have edited it on the basis of Rabatak inscription whereas Rowlatt11 had cited a secondary source [44] I don't see any relation in it and besides Kanishka's religion is a hot topic of discussion so it'd be obvious that many user will do edits in it but that doesn't mean you'll now relate all of them with me, amusing enough that HistoryofIran is trying to relate me with any far distant user.

Jonharojjashi (talk) 19:30, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

A poor, cherrypicked response which barely addressed half the stuff I said. As I expected. HistoryofIran (talk) 21:03, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

And what's so cheery picked in it? Jonharojjashi (talk) 09:41, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

Editing issues of Jonharojjashi

I'm not getting involved in the discussion of sock/meat issues or behavioral problems, but I've encountered issues with two of their articles I attempted to verify with sources. One article I submitted for AFD and it was deleted (Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Extermination of Nagadhatta. )Today, I examined another article created by Jonharojjashi, Gauda–Gupta War, and found significant issues within it. While I addressed some of these concerns during the AFD (see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Gauda–Gupta War), the problems extend beyond a few isolated ones. While I've found several issues just within two of their articles, I'm concerned that other pages created by them may follow a similar pattern. I recommend a review of their articles.--Imperial^[AFCND] 17:34, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

I was not sure why Jonharojjashi restricted the timeframe of the Gupta–Hunnic Wars to 534, especially when there are sources (now cited by me) indicating that the conflicts extended until the fall of the Guptas in 550, largely due to White Hunnic invasions (with the result parameter likely favoring the Huns). It appears there may have been an effort to portray a "Gupta victory" by limiting the duration of the war, allowing the Guptas to appear successful in their final campaign up to 534. I have made a small major copyedit in the infobox section, by extending the duration to all the way upto the end of the war, and limiting the big list of the territorial changes to the final outcome of the territory. Issues have been addressed by tagging. Imperial^[AFCND] 18:51, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

A random user appeared at Gupa-Hunnic Wars, and reverted my edits; and replaced it with Gupta victory again [45], similar to Jonharojjashi, the user justified the reason by highlighting the upper hand of Guptas during an intermediate stage of the War [46]. Editor used poor sources; and ofcourse limited time period of the War, so it wasn't a heavy task to find a reason to revert. BUT! since then the user left, Jonharojjashi appeared the scene and reverted to his version (indeed time period limited to a definite time in such a way that could be counted as a victory for Guptas), and surprisingly made a request for protection of the page, accusing me and the above user being edit warred [47]. Made a comment on the talk section requesting us ro stop a non existing edit warring and didn't even give proper reasons for reverting to the version;nor said anything about the result parameter.[48]. --Imperial^[AFCND] 18:03, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Another brand new user appearing out of nowhere and doing the exact same as Jonharojjashi? Must be another random coincidence, and not anything to do with the Discord /s. HistoryofIran (talk) 22:24, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

Responding to relevant points in @ImperialAficionado's first comment:-

• The discussion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Gauda–Gupta War is still ongoing and anyone can see that you are either procrastinating or making excuses to provide proper reasoning that how the article holds weak sources, OR and synthesis.

Responding to relevant points in @ImperialAficionado's second comment:-

• I see no point in bringing this issue here when I have alr cleared all their doubts at Talk:Gupta–Hunnic Wars.

Instead of sticking to the topic, historyofIran and ImperialAficionado seem to be enjoying more in off-topic discussions. As we see ImperialAficionado first pinging historyofIran just to tell them see how funny he posted this on my talk page and disregarding sources provided by me. What is ridiculous is that one of the sources cited by ImperialAficionado (Dictionary of Wars) is now considered as unreliable by historyofIran but as per RSN it is reliable, I wonder why HistoryofIran then didn't oppose ImperialAficionado for adding this unreliable source (according to them). (Could be WP:TAGTEAM?) For the timeline of the War, I have provided them with Bakker's timeline of the Gupta-Hunnic struggle but they keep neglecting it and instead of focusing on the topic of the discussion they derailed it with useless laughable talks at the end. Note that the other sources cited by ImperialAficionado do not give a single reference for any involved belligerents victory and merely talk around the fall of the Gupta Empire. Again see Talk:Gupta–Hunnic Wars#Constant_disruption.

Responding to relevant points in @ImperialAficionado's third comment:-

• Strange how ImperialAficionado didn't bother to put the whole context here, alright I'll do this for him.

I have explained the reason for reverting your edits at Talk:Gupta–Hunnic Wars and placed warning templates on their talk page which was being removed by ImperialAficionado. They removed it not only from their own talk page [49] but they also tried to do the same from user Mnbnjghiryurr's talk page, which was later reverted by [50] Jonharojjashi (talk) 15:13, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Thats not the whole context. And its still not a good idea to suggest that me and Imperial are tagteaming with all the evidence I have of you here - because if we’re tagteaming, we’re going to have to find a new word for you and your Discord group. You’re trying to shift the focus, and it’s not going to work. HistoryofIran (talk) 16:43, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Jonharojjashi and Malik-Al-Hind

Malik-Al-Hind (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

My god, can they make it less obvious?

1. Both Jonharojjashi [51] and brand new User:Malik-Al-Hind [52] use the obscure and poor source written by a non-historian Dictionary of Wars
2. Both fixiated on making poorly sourced WP:SYNTH war/conflict articles where the Indian part wins [53] [54]
3. Like Jonharojjashi [55], Malik-Al-Hind also tries to overinflate Gupta territory/history through source misuse (WP:SYNTH) [56] [57]
4. Both Jonharojjashi [58] and Malik-Al-Hind [59] are fixated on me not focusing on User:DeepstoneV. --HistoryofIran (talk) 12:35, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

I don't know much about Johnarojjashi but I noticed that he has similar edits like DeepstoneV (as they both edit around Ancient indian history). Since I don't know about him so I can only reply to the accusations on me.

Firstly, I'd apologize if the book I cited is not written by a historian but I found that cited in Afghan-Maratha War, so I thought it would be a WP:RS.

Secondly, my draft is well sourced, you can raise the issue at the talk page. I'll surely fix it.

Thirdly, you were extending the topic with different discussion but still I preferred answering your doubts instead of raising concerns of diverting topic, you even played the game of "response and skip" in the discussion and you only arrived there in the interval of 2-3 days (why?), I had quoted RS to clear your doubts, the other users (Flemish Neitz.. and Based Kasmiri) also supported my view so don't just accuse me of doing synthing.

Fourthly, Because of User DeepstoneV the Gupta Empire page was protected (requested by me) and they have removed several sourced contents from diff articles (reverted by me[60][61][62][63]) but instead of warning them you chose to support deepstoneV for no reason, even if they did disruptive edits. Malik-Al-Hind (talk) 19:23, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

Actually, my “doubts” ended up being real, as you did indeed misuse WP:RS to overinflate Gupta territory, which Flemmish also ended up calling you out for [64]. But long live dishonesty I guess. The rest of your comment dont even deserve an answer, seems like you and Jonharojjashi are using the same poor lines to respond to me. HistoryofIran (talk) 05:40, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Here we go again, @Malik Al Hind If you don't know much about me then why do you want to link me with DeepstoneV? Just stop this nonsense. And why are you apologizing to Historyofiran for using this book? As per RSN it is a reliable book [65], we are not binded by their dictatorship but only Wikipedia policies and guidelines, (as expected historyofIran keeps biting newcomers). Interestingly they didn't oppose the addition of the same source by ImperialAficionado [66]. Tag teaming goes hard. Note that when I raised the same issue for defending poor edits of deepstoneV, they removed my comment from their talk page [67] because they don't want hear anything against their tag team members. Jonharojjashi (talk) 15:20, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

The whataboutism resumes once again. This report is not about me, Imperial nor Deepstone, but your discord group. And please dont put words in my mouth, I removed you from my talk page because I dont want a meatpuppet leader in my talk page. HistoryofIran (talk) 16:13, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

They could in fact not make it less obvious. Malik-Al-Hind [68] [69] and Jonharojjashi [70] misusing the EXACT same uncertain quote by R.K. Mookerji to get more pride points by having their favourite Gupta Empire "conquer/win" against x thing. Can't wait for the excuse/whataboutism on this one - can we please just indeff this whole group? --HistoryofIran (talk) 21:49, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Jonharojjashi and Sudsahab

Sudsahab (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

1. Both Jonharojjashi [71] [72] and indeffed user Sudsahab [73] use the incredibly obscure and obviously non-WP:RS by a non-historian Bharat's Military Conquests In Foreign Lands
2. Both make poorly sourced WP:SYNTH war articles with no source for the date of when it started, heck the start date doesnt even appear in the body/lead of the article [74] [75]. Notice that there are only a few days between the creation of the articles 2 March 2024 9 March 2024, this is not a coincidence that they both create an article related to a Saka "campaign/war". --HistoryofIran (talk) 12:56, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

Now this. Sudsahab has already asked me to help them improve their article [76] and as I said their, I was busy back then within working on my own drafts and replying to these ANIs. Beyond that I know nothing what happened to them or their sock, keep me outta this.

I hope historyofIran knows that anyone can see others contributions and edit history, so isn't it obvious that Sudsahab could be influenced by the source used by me? In fact the book Bharat's Military Conquests In Foreign Lands. is quite popular among South Asians. So I don't claim copyright of it, anyone can read it if they want. Jonharojjashi (talk) 15:24, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

At this rate you might as well give me an invite so I can craft a better excuse for you. The two articles were created BEFORE your conversation with Sudsahab, and I dont see him asking you to create that article either for that matter. And ah yes, the non-WP:RS by a obscure, non-historian is no doubt popular amongst South Asians, and who are more than 2 billion a that. Do you have a source for that? HistoryofIran (talk) 16:33, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

पापा जी

पापा जी (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

पापा जी is a "brand new user", yet they are already aware of WP:SYNTH [77] and WP:NPOV [78]. Their first edit was restoring info in an article by Shakib ul hassan [79], does this edit summary seem like that of a new user to you? using "rv" in their very first edit summary. They then immediately went to support the deletion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Arab conquest of Kaikan ‎and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Maratha invasion of Awadh. Not even remotely close to the traditional journey of a new user, good thing they're trying to hide it. --HistoryofIran (talk) 12:50, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

A remark about closing

@HistoryofIran, please stop non-archiving this thread. You have been warned about this previously. The administrators do not appear to be interested in this report. It's time to close and move on. I have removed the no-archive. BoldGnome (talk) 05:59, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

@BoldGnome: That was not a warning, it wasn't by an admin either, and the reported user ended up getting topic banned for one year, so clearly it was worth having the DNAU. Have you read this report? Can you please tell me what the report is missing here instead of just simply removing the DNAU, which is not helping this project? It's extremely concerning that we clearly have a Discord group that is slowly gaining monopoly over a section of Wikipedia articles, and no one is batting an eye. It's a shame, perhaps if I made this report more dramatic, it would get more attention, because that's what seems to be popular at ANI these past years - drama. Clearly, my report has validity per this [80] [81]. HistoryofIran (talk) 13:02, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

Has somebody reported the server to Discord employees? Discord servers are meant to communicate, not to be used as a launchpad for disruption. Ahri Boy (talk) 13:29, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for your comment. I unfortunately don't think Discord will care/understand, and worst case scenario they could always make a new group through new accounts. I don't have the name of the Discord either, I just have a screenshot from Discord of Jonharojjashi trying to recruit someone and talking about their "team" working on two (POV ridden) articles which are currently on Wikipedia. Jonharojjashi constantly denying that they have a Discord group should alone be a big red flag enough to raise suspicion. I'll gladly send the screenshot to any interested admin. HistoryofIran (talk) 13:39, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

According to Section 19 of Discord Community Guidelines, they may not be allowed to create accounts that would evade platform-level sanctions, if the server or the user is banned. Discord is very closely regulating the use of servers. Ahri Boy (talk) 16:53, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

From what I can see, a big problem is that the key evidence of meatpuppetry coordinated over Discord is something that we can't actually see. You say you sent the evidence to Arbcom and they advised you to come here. It would be helpful if an Arb who has seen the evidence could post here and tell us whether it is compelling. Until then, as an admin and SPI regular I'm not really comfortable taking action based on information that I don't have. The Wordsmith^{Talk to me} 22:14, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

Yes, this constant DNAU-adding is essentially WP:FORUMSHOPPING ("raising essentially the same issue ... on one [noticeboard] repetitively, is unhelpful to finding and achieving consensus"). HistoryofIran made a "closing remark" a month ago; they seem to think they have the authority to decide what is worth having at ANI, but as far as I can see, they don't. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 16:44, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

I never stated that I have any form of authority. It's disappointing to see a veteran user act like this. I hope you're glad that you got to take that dig at me. Who cares about the Discord meatpuppets right? Let them run amok. HistoryofIran (talk) 17:27, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

Discord meatputppets will be easily detected upon reporting with sufficient evidence to Discord employees. Ahri Boy (talk) 23:30, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

First time I've been called a "veteran", so thanks for that, I guess. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 02:47, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

That was what you got out of my response...? HistoryofIran (talk) 02:57, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

That's not how forum shopping works. The issue is not being raised "repetitively". And quite frankly, HistoryofIran has a very good track record when it comes to ANI reports. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 19:40, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

I know that they have a good track record. I was the one who first notified them about how to use DNAU. I did not think that they would use it to keep their own agitations at ANI indefinitely. Yes, the issue is not being raised "repetitively" in fact, but in spirit it has the same effect, as the same thread, without resolution, is constantly being prohibited from archiving. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 02:47, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

You did not introduce me to DNAU, that was another user. Calling my reports (the vast majority which leads to the reported user being blocked/banned) for my "own agitations" is frankly at WP:ASPERSIONS territory, do better. HistoryofIran (talk) 02:54, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

DNAU? Phil Bridger (talk) 20:27, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

It's a template that stops a thread from auto-archiving [82]. HistoryofIran (talk) 23:18, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

Thank you. Phil Bridger (talk) 07:40, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

Comment about DNAUs by User:HistoryofIran: The near-systematic addition of a very long DNAUs ("Do Not Archive Until...") by User:HistoryofIran to his ANI filings is a probable instance of WP:GAMING THE SYSTEM. This ANI page (Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents) is set-up with a 72-hours auto-archive function ("Sections inactive for 72 hours are archived automatically by Lowercase sigmabot III"), designed to expedite process: matters that do not attract traction are meant to be archived, after 72 hours without new input. On the contrary, User:HistoryofIran uses repeated and rolling DNAUs [83] to abuse the system and give undue exposure to his filings. The net effect of such DNAUs is that they distort the usual ANI process, and give unfair prominence to filings that do not otherwise trigger User or Administrative attention, and encourage drive-by input. He recently obtained a hefty Topic ban against me (1 year... [84]) after forcing his filing for 42 days [85], despite protestations by User:AirshipJungleman29 for this abuse of the system ("It is not your responsibility to clerk this page on behalf of the administrators by altering this intended feature of how ANI functions" [86]). Overall his 42-days filing received little input from regular Users or Administrators, even though the filing was top-of-the-page for several weeks: a few veteran users who looked at the evidence explained that the filing was to a large extent without merit, but the lengthy DNAU ensured that a few random users also voted and tipped the balance [87]. An Administrator with nearly no contributions (about 50 contributions a year) then closed with a hefty Topic ban, claiming a consensus [88]. By playing with DNAUs, User:HistoryofIran is obviously abusing the system in attempts to obtain an unfair advantage against users he disagrees with. If I played by his rules, I would recommend a long-term block of User:HistoryofIran for repeated abuse of an administrative system (not even taking into account his constant pro-Iranian POV), and make sure my filing stays 2 months at ANI through repeated DNAUs, with constant repeating of my accusations... पाटलिपुत्र (Pataliputra) (talk) 11:32, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

This is a bad-faith revenge report. I never intended on abusing anything, and I wonder why you didn't comment about it at the time (including the arguments I presented to AirshipJungleman29's comment [89] [90]), and first now. And in the ANI thread you were told to stop casting WP:ASPERSIONS (such as the attack you made attack KhndzorUtogh for merely calling you out for WP:OR "Like it or not, and I'm sorry of I hurt some Armenian sensitivities..."), yet you are doing the very same now. And I did not merely "disagree" with you, there were legitimate concerns about you (hence why every voting user at least agreed on you getting restricted from adding images, so the claim that "a few veteran users who looked at the evidence explained that the filing was to a large extent without merit" is very dishonest), the fact that you still don't see that is concerning. For those interested, here is the report [91]. HistoryofIran (talk) 12:04, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

Community responses to this long report

Creating a subthread for non-participants in the distpute to get their responses in, in a centralized spot.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  01:42, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

• It seems pretty obvious that something untoward is going on here. I'm not really certain what the propriety is of joining the Reddit in question and observing the behavior in detail and how it may correlate with on-WP action. Probably not necessary, and hard to do without outing-related issues. It seems sufficient that this editor (Jonharojjashi) is habitually citing poor sources, misusing better ones in an OR matter, and PoV-forking at will, all to push a viewpoint that is clearly counter-historical and India-promotional. That they're frequently collaborating with sock- and meat-puppets to do it is probably only of incidental interest, especially since the puppets are routinely blocked anyway without AN/I needing to be involved. I'm not sure if this just calls for a topic-ban (perhaps a time-limited but non-trivial one), or if further action is needed, like listing various of the crap sources at WP:RSNP so there is less future question about editors trying to rely on them in our material.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  01:42, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

  Subreddits and Discord servers in question must be reported to respective admins of those sites. Provide evidence as soon as possible. Ahri Boy (talk) 02:06, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

  • Oration - Thank you, User:SMcCandlish, for asking for community responses, presumably including completely uninvolved community responses, to this excessively long thread about this long-running conflict. This drama has been playing out for a month, and waiting for a prince. A Greek tragedy often ends with a deus ex machina. A Shakespearean tragedy often ends with what should be called a princeps ex machina, in which a high-ranking person shows up unexpectedly and gives a closing speech. (Look at Hamlet (play) or Macbeth (play).) Since Wikipedia is not an aristocracy, we can continue to argue for a long time until someone assumes the role of the prince. Or we can all be silent for a few days so that this great monster with tentacles goes away.
  • The community has never done very well with cases involving off-wiki coordination. ArbCom has sometimes been able to deal more effectively with such cases. Here are the ways that we, the community, can end this case:
  • 1. Someone can make a proposal for a sanction that gains support, and a closer can play the role of the prince and pronouncing the sanction.
  • 2. There can be some failed proposals, and then someone can play the role of the prince in declaring that there is No Consensus. This will have the added value that, when this dispute flares up again, it can reasonably be said to ArbCom that the community was unable to resolve the dispute.
  • 3. Someone can write a Request for Arbitration, focusing on off-wiki coordination, which has sometimes in the past been dealt with by ArbCom.
  • 4. We can all be quiet for a few days, and the sea monster will disappear, as if the community will be silent long enough.
  • I have completely uninvolved to this point, and I don't have a proposal. Robert McClenon (talk) 22:43, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

Bravehm

Bravehm (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

WP:TENDENTIOUS user that keeps attempting to remove/decrease the Mongol aspect of the Hazara (they even somewhat openly admitted it here if you ask me [92]), likely a sock [93], though the SPI might not come with conclusive results again.

1. At Talk:Hazaras, Bravehm blatantly lied that User:KoizumiBS removed sourced information [94], when they literally did the opposite, restoring sourced info (mainly about the Mongol aspect of the Hazara) removed by indeffed User:Jadidjw, whom I still believe to this day was a sock of Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Iampharzad, who has a long history of attempting to remove the Mongol aspects mentioned at Hazaras. Notice that Jadidjw didnt even protest against their indef block despite editing since 2021. They no doubt jumped to another account.
2. After clearly trying to ramp up 500 edits as fast as possible to get access to Hazaras, they immediately started removing sourced information and edit warring [95] [96]
3. Bravehm also blatantly lied here to justify their removal of sourced info about the Mongol aspect [97]
4. Removed sourced info about the Mongol aspect again [98] ("According other sources, the Hazara population speaks Persian with some Mongolian words.")
5. Same here [99]
6. And here [100]
7. And here [101]
8. And here [102]
9. And here [103]

--HistoryofIran (talk) 23:44, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

• I've left a CT notice on the user's talk page, noting that we still haven't heard back from them here yet. I also glanced through contribution history; they did hit 500 pretty quick, however most of the edits appear to have come in good faith insofar as they weren't adding or subtracting one or two syllables consistently to get to 500, however that doesn't per se rule out revoking the EC rights or alternatively page blocking them from the Hazaras article. TomStar81 (Talk) 00:28, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

  Another removal of information about the Mongolian component - diff. KoizumiBS (talk) 10:26, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

  Because Babur never said those words in his Baburnama, but the translator added it and it should not be taken as a source. please see Bravehm (talk) 13:22, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

  WP:CIR issues too. You've already been asked several times why the translators don't count as WP:RS, but you've been unable to, even changing your arguments as you please [104]. HistoryofIran (talk) 14:04, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

  Another attempt to minimize the Mongol aspect [105]. HistoryofIran (talk) 16:45, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

  I restored some of those changes that KoizumiBS brought. Hazares also have Turkic and Iranic aspects, why KoizumiBS attempt to minimize the non-Mongol and Turkic aspect of Hazaras.[106] Bravehm (talk) 19:10, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

  There's a valid point buried in this. If a modern translator/editor of period manuscript material is injecting their own interpretation about what the original material probably really meant, then that translator/editor is a primary source for that editorial judgement/claim/change (it's their own personal opinion), and while they may be within RS definitions as a subject-matter expert, their view needs to be attributed to them as a modern scholar, not masqueraded as a statement of the original historical manuscript writer. This sort of thing comes up pretty frequently with regard to modern scholarly intepretation of ancient writings, and more often than not other scholars can also be cited in support of and sometimes against such a modern analytical intepretation.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  01:48, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

  "HistoryofIran" wrongly and falsely considers my account to belong to "Iampharzad" while I only have this account and Iampharzad's account is not related to me in any way. Bravehm (talk) 09:09, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

  • According to Encyclopaedia of Islam, Hazaragi is a Persian dialect, which is infused with many Turkic and a few Mongolic words or loanwords.
  • According to Encyclopædia Britannica, the Hazara speak an eastern variety of Persian called Hazaragi with many Mongolian and Turkic words.
  • According to Encyclopaedia Iranica, the Hazaras speak a Persian dialect with many Turkic and some Mongolic words.
  • According other sources, the Hazara population speaks Persian with some Mongolian words.

  I only rm the last one due to repetition, incompleteness, and it only mentioned the Mongolian aspect. Bravehm (talk) 16:48, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

This (According other sources, the Hazara population speaks Persian with some Mongolian words.) removal was due to the duplication of info about Hazaragi, and its sources were not reliable as Encyclopaedia of Islam, Encyclopaedia Britannica, and Encyclopaedia Iranica. Bravehm (talk) 16:23, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

My discussion with KoizumiBS on the Talk page of article caused him to correct the erroneous info he had added in the article about the Mongol aspect of the Hazaras. See [107] Bravehm (talk) 18:31, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

@HistoryofIran: [108], [109]

They are not removal but restoration.

I don't know why you have taken a hard position against me and consider my every edit as something bad. As a user, I have the right to edit as you edit. Bravehm (talk) 19:47, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

Bravehm once again being dishonest, removing sourced info while saying it is "unsourced" [110]. WP:NOTHERE. --HistoryofIran (talk) 12:56, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

"More unsourced" not "unsourced"

I explained the reason: "No reliable census has been conducted in Afghanistan so far".

And there were no mentions of Aimaqs and Hazaras, which constitute the majority of Ghor residents but the majority of its inhabitants were almost Tajiks plaese see: [111] Bravehm (talk) 15:41, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

It's still not unsourced though... And your explanation is worthless, we follow WP:RS, not your personal opinion - you've already been told this. HistoryofIran (talk) 16:43, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

So "www.biorxiv.org" and "journals.plos.org" are also not WP:RS for this content "the Hazara population speaks Persian with some Mongolian words." Bravehm (talk) 17:41, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

References

Request for closure

Can an admin please take a look at this case? Bravehm is disrupting more and more articles as we speak [112]. They are WP:TENDENTIOUS and have clear WP:CIR issues, exactly like Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Iampharzad and co., they even all have the same English skills! --HistoryofIran (talk) 23:00, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

This (Iampharzad) account does not and does not belong to me.

User: HistoryofIran has taken a tough stance against me and wants to deny me the right to edit on Wikipedia. He reverses my edits and wants us to reach a consensus on the Talk page of the article, but when I am ready to discuss because of the consensus, he does not give me an answer on the page. Bravehm (talk) 23:46, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

They're still being disruptive as we speak, such as here where they manually reverted KoizumiBS and once again blatantly lied, accusing KoizumiBS of once again removing info but in reality due it themselves to decrease the Mongol aspect [113]. --HistoryofIran (talk) 22:18, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

It was just a restoration of sourced info deleted by KoizumiBS.

This's how I did it (Restored revision 1219713481 by WikiDan61 (talk): Please do not delete previous contents [114]) Bravehm (talk) 12:59, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

Yes, everyone can see how you did it... I already linked the diff. And everyone can see your disruption through these diffs. HistoryofIran (talk) 16:54, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Their SPI has been up for a month, and this report almost a month. Can an admin please look into this case? Countless diffs here of them being disruptive. HistoryofIran (talk) 11:07, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

• I second the request for closure and have removed the non-archive from this report as well. BoldGnome (talk) 06:27, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

  Again, this is not helping. Could you please at least give your opinion on what is missing here? There are countless diffs of this user violating our rules. HistoryofIran (talk) 13:03, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

  A report concisely describing disruptive behaviour evidenced by diffs. Ideally the most objectionable behaviour should be presented first. Your first two links are to something fairly unobjectionable and to an open SPI. This and the continued updates make this look like it's not worth people's time, or at least the amount of time it would take to go through the whole report. BoldGnome (talk) 23:23, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

  This and the continued updates make this look like it's not worth people's time, or at least the amount of time it would take to go through the whole report.

  This is a ridiculous argument. So if the case is too long, just screw it and let the user continue their disruption? It seems you didn't even go through the diffs yourself, and yet you still removed the DNAU, because harassing an admin was apparently not enough [115]. HistoryofIran (talk) 00:07, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

  Look man, you asked for advice and I gave it. That's the reason everyone ignores your reports. If you listen to my advice you are more likely to achieve your desired outcomes. Your last comment is unnecessary (and untrue, if you look at the "harrassment" in question). BoldGnome (talk) 00:23, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

  I meant what you thought about the diffs... but you didn't even bother to look into them, since it's "too long". Yet you still removed the DNAU.. thanks for aiding the disruptive user. A constructive Wikipedian would at least read the report and give their opinion. I hope you realize that Wikipedia would be a nightmare if every lengthy report got ignored. And the length of this report is mainly due to the reported user spamming their nonsense. HistoryofIran (talk) 00:31, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

  The problem is that this is a complex report, and it involves a topic area that most administrators and veteran editors know little about. In addition to the language barrier, most of us lack the necessary cultural context on Central and South Asia topics. That makes it hard to evaluate sources and figure out who is right. Another issue with editors from these parts of the world is that there's a ton of POV pushing and sockpuppetry on all sides. In my SPI work, I see articles in WP:ARBIPA topic areas where multiple sock/UPE farms are fighting and reporting each other as sockpuppets. The way ISPs in this region hand out IP addresses makes it very difficult for Checkuser to produce useful results. SPI is also incredibly backed up, so unfortunately these cases can linger for a while without more volunteers.

  If you want your reports to be more actionable, I can make a few suggestions. Focusing on user conduct issues like incivility, ownership, personal attacks and edit warring are more likely to get results, because the evidence for them is usually pretty clear. A lot of this report looks like content disputes, and we can't really determine who is POV pushing. It might also be better to use WP:AE; the format there is better for demonstrating problems concisely without participants arguing amongst themselves. One other suggestion is to open discussions about the more common sources at places like WP:RSN. As an example, I don't read The Times of India or Telesur and can't evaluate their reliability the same way I can with something I do read. But they've been discussed at RSN, so now we have WP:TOI and WP:TELESUR to tell editors and admins how to handle them. The Wordsmith^{Talk to me} 22:58, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

  Thanks The Wordsmith, will keep that mind. It also doesn't help that Bravehm is blatantly lying, this is perhaps the clearest example I can show; I restored sourced info removed by Bravehm [116], restoring +605 bytes. They then not only revert me, but remove more sourced info (-1189 bytes) [117], having the nerve to ask me to go to the talk page, ignoring WP:CONSENSUS and WP:ONUS. This is manipulative. I then revert them again [118], only to get reverted again, but this time they removed even more bytes (-1751), still asking me to go the talk page [119]. HistoryofIran (talk) 23:33, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

  Well, they just violated WP:3RR, so I guess this thread won't needed anymore. Bravehm will be back after their block though, as have all the previous (indeffed) users trying to do the same in that article. --HistoryofIran (talk) 23:44, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

  Boldgnome's and The Wordsmith's advice is pretty good, actually. And it can sometimes be better to close a drawn-out report that is proving too "TL;DR" to attract input and action, and open a new one later that concisely presents the evidence, from most egregious down to supporting-but-not-itself-actionable. It's also not helpful to just keep repeating "is being disruptive" over and over again. If the actions in question were not allegedly disruptive, then they wouldn't be at AN/I in the first place.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  01:54, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

  Thanks SMcCandlish. And I apologize to User:BoldGnome for my remark, hope we can put it behind us. HistoryofIran (talk) 22:36, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

  No problem at all! BoldGnome (talk) 08:26, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

A refusal to permit evidence to be discussed in a Wikipedia talk:Did you know thread requesting such evidence.

See here. [120][121] where User:4meter4 has twice hatted directly relevant on-topic comments I made in direct response to a good-faith request for evidence regarding DYK BLP-related issues. It seems apparent from reading the thread that several individuals wish to exert control over the discussion, and to prevent some issues being raised. If this is indeed their intention, the broader community might like to take into consideration whether it might be more appropriate to conduct such discussions elsewhere, where such questionable control could less easily be exerted. AndyTheGrump (talk) 19:29, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Andy, a person who has been murdered is not living. Once someone is dead, they are no longer a WP:BLP. We are specifically looking at living people because the focus of the RFC is on BLP compliance. A murder victim by definition is not living, so this isn't a usable or relevant example to this particular RFC.4meter4 (talk) 19:36, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

I suggest you read what WP:BLP actually says. WP:BLP policy now, and WP:BLP policy back when the DYK you don't want discussed was posted on the main page. Policy then, and policy now, is equally clear that the recently deceased - and perhaps more importantly their living friends, relatives etc - deserve dignity. Not lurid tabloid headlines about someone who had been murdered and had their body disposed of in a canal only three weeks previously. My evidence was absolutely within the scope of WP:BLP, and absolutely relevant to any serious attempt to deal with what appear to be long-term systemic issues with DYK. If indeed this is to be treated as a serious attempt to do so. I believe that was the intention of the person starting the discussion, but it is becoming increasingly difficult to make the same assumption about some of the other participants there. They apparently aren't even prepared to wait for responses from other potential participants before trying to set arbitrary rules of their own over the scope of discussion. AndyTheGrump (talk) 19:49, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) Just going to point out there's some nebulous leeway at WP:BLP that can apply to persons who are recently deceased, should that be the point of contention:
Contentious material about living persons (or, in some cases, recently deceased) that is unsourced or poorly sourced—whether the material is negative, positive, neutral, or just questionable—must be removed immediately and without waiting for discussion. Italics mine, bold in original.

WP:BDP also covers the recently deceased in a bit more detail. That said, it seems like the subject died in 2012, to which I would expect any reasonable person to consider as not a recent death. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 19:47, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

No, it isn't a recent death now. It was when the DYK was plastered over the main page, three weeks after McCluskie died. AndyTheGrump (talk) 19:50, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

A DYK that ran in March 2012, which was approximately 12 years ago. You were asked repeatedly to provide current examples, which you refuse to do. Viriditas (talk) 19:54, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

I have already explained why I consider it relevant. I see no reason to repeat myself. As for being 'asked to provide' examples, the exact opposite is going on - as when people accuse me of 'sabotage' for even participating in a post below. AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:08, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Extended content

No explanation needed, your Majesty. Everything you say has the writ of royal prerogative and nobody should ever question you again. If you should have to repeat yourself again in any manner, I shall report the offending party henceforth. Viriditas (talk) 20:47, 15 May 2024 (UTC) Attempt to goad me into making the response that comment merits duly noted. AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:51, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Move to close this ANI report as needless, frivolous, and without merit. 4meter4 is trying to help, not hinder discussion. Viriditas (talk) 19:41, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Aren't you a little too involved to be making such a proposal? AndyTheGrump (talk) 19:51, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

@Viriditas: that or a BOOMERANG. Therapyisgood (talk) 19:42, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Andy, you're being disruptive. I'm having a hard time not seeing this as almost sabotage. 4meter4 is trying to fix something you have been complaining about for over a decade. Maybe you should consider taking WT:DYK off your watch. Valereee (talk) 19:51, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

'Sabotage'? For pointing out serious problems with BLP-related DYKs, in a thread asking for evidence about problems with BLP-related DYKs? The only 'sabotage' (or at least disruption) seems to be coming from those who jumped in as soon as I posted, trying to exclude my evidence. A sincere question was asked. I gave a sincere response. And now, rather than letting anyone else participate with their own comments on their own evidence, they are confronted with an ever-growing and obviously off-putting tangential mess. If my evidence is agreed, when all is done, to be of little concern, then why would it matter so much anyway? Why is everyone so concerned to exert control over the thread? And how is such control even remotely appropriate in the context of such discussions? AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:04, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Andy, you've indicated you're going to enter into evidence anything and everything from a decade+ ago. The discussion is about how to fix what's happening now. I've created(?) a sortable table. If you're intent upon entering into evidence everything from the past 12+ years, fine. Valereee (talk) 20:07, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

No I have not indicated you're going to enter into evidence anything and everything from a decade+ ago. I clearly and unambiguously stated that I have no intention of bringing 'every DYK I've ever objected to in the past 12+ years' here. I brought up two, because they were clearly relevant to a discussion which seems on the face of it to be focussed around adressing systemic issues. Please don't make things up. AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:11, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Except most of the discussion participants repeatedly told you that old evidence wasn't relevant. Anyway, let's cut to the chase. I just proposed the "No BLP rule" on the DYK talk page you are working your way up to proposing. Why not just get down to brass tacks? Viriditas (talk) 20:13, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

As of now, I have no firm proposals. Or none that would stand much chance of gaining community approval. And why exactly, if you consider a 'no BLP rule' to be appropriate, are you objecting to me showing why it is needed? AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:21, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Well, that's not what I wrote up above or on the DYK talk page. I said that the reason I added it for discussion is because it is the natural endpoint of your argument. You also have some unknown measure of support for it. My guess is that the reason you are waiting to do this is because you feel that you can work people up to it with some kind of persuasion campaign. On the other hand, I prefer to face reality head on, and think we should discuss it immediately. I have not expressed any support or opposition for the idea, other than a separate informal proposal on the DYK talk page that would allow reviewers to discard/reject so-called controversial nominations provided some kind of conditions are met. Viriditas (talk) 20:29, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

horse horse i love my station

I would very much appreciate it if you would stop trying to read my mind. You evidently aren't very good at it, but it is irritating all the same. AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:39, 15 May 2024 (UTC) Please alert the Palace Guards when I will be allowed to discuss the proposal. I will be eagerly awaiting your reply in the stables where I will be tending your Majesty's horses, as befits my station. Viriditas (talk) 20:42, 15 May 2024 (UTC) Given your telepathic skills, you should already be aware of my reply. Feel free to report the breach of WP:CIVIL. AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:49, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

For using examples over a decade old in a discussion about current practices. Valereee (talk) 20:35, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

This hatting is wrongly-justified - WP:BLP would absolutely apply to someone murdered only weeks prior. No comment on hatting due to being an 'old example', but to be 100% clear, BLP applies to recently-deceased people and would 100% apply to the Gemma McCluskie article/hook back in 2012. Daniel (talk) 20:02, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

It does, and it did according to 2012 policy too. Which is why it took so little effort to get it pulled from the main page, once I'd raised it at WP:ANI. AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:25, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

• I voted against sanctions on the last thread to appear on this board based on the assumption that a 24 hour block would be way too short to do anything preventative, and would thus be purely punitive. I am now forced to confront the fact that voting differently would have prevented this thread from appearing at ANI. I don't see how anyone could have expected a twelve year old example to stand uncontested in a discussion about what is happening on wikipedia now. The correct response to someone challenging you on this would have been to come up with an example within the last year or so, not to take it here. --Licks-rocks (talk) 21:13, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

  The argument that events that occurred twelve years ago are of no relevance would be more convincing if anyone were to show that things have actually changed in any substantive way since then. I don't believe they have. The underlying causes have never been properly addressed as far as I can tell, which is why the discussion is taking place. AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:25, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

  You posted examples of bad things that happened 12 years ago, and you think now it's up to someone else to demonstrate that those things are no longer happening? Seriously, this approach makes sense to you? Levivich (talk) 21:31, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

  No, I posted evidence regarding events 12 years ago. People then claimed they were no longer relevant. I asked what has changed to prevent such things occurring again - in a thread started because there clearly are similar problems, even now. Nobody has answered my question. AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:35, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

  Nobody cares what happened 12 years ago at DYK. You cannot demonstrate that there is an ongoing problem by showing that there was a problem 12 years ago--you need to show ongoing, which means problems between 12 years ago and now--or really, like everyone is asking you, just show recent problems. I'm sure you understand this, which leaves me wondering why you would argue otherwise, to the point of taking it to ANI. It feels like you're trying to get yourself sanctioned, and trying very hard at that, and I don't understand why. Like you could not be less collaborative in this venture unless you started dropping slurs. 4meter agrees with you (on the BLP issues) if you haven't noticed, and you took them to ANI because... they collapsed your 12-year-old evidence? WTF are you thinking? If you've been drinking or something, walk away from the keyboard now. I'm at an honest loss about why you would try to disrupt the very process you tried so hard to start. It's just pure self-sabotage behavior at this point. Levivich (talk) 21:43, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

  Can you point to where everyone was asking me to submit more recent evidence? I don't see that: what I do see however is an attempt to stop me submitting anything. Including things I had no intention of submitting in the first place. And no, I'm not drunk. Been on the wagon since, um, 2012 or so. AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:00, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

  Sure, let me quote some examples from the WT:DYK page:

  • "If it hasn't happened in twelve years then it's not a recurring problem. This is why 12-year-old evidence sucks." - That's me, and perhaps it wasn't clear but this was an implicit request for more recent evidence.
  • "Again over a decade ago. Let's focus on current issues?", "Andy, I don't think anyone would disagree these were bad. But let's focus on today's issues.", "Andy, I mean this absolutely sincerely: why? If we want to fix now, let's focus on now." - that's val asking 3 times
  • "Old evidence doesn't get us any closer to this answer. The majority of the respondents to this discussion have asked you to provide current evidence only. I'm asking you as well." - that's Viriditas

  Oh and here's a bonus:

  • "All BLP examples, regardless how old, will be accepted." - that's 4meter, the editor you've brought to ANI, and it directly undercuts your statement above that "what I do see however is an attempt to stop me submitting anything"

  Let it sink in: the editor you brought to ANI (1) agrees with you about a BLP problem at DYK, (2) has volunteered their time to start an analysis of said problem, and (3) explicitly said all evidence should be accepted regardless of how old, so they even defend your 12-year-old evidence. And you call this "an attempt to stop me submitting anything"? Because somebody hatted a part of that. I hope you can recognize how illogical this is. Levivich (talk) 22:22, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

  Sorry, but I'm not going to debate logic with someone who thinks that it is appropriate to make evidence-free allegations of drunkenness in an ANI thread. If that were actually appropriate, I could probably point to actual evidence that might suggest the same - regarding people complaining that I'd supplied evidence, people complaining that I intended to submit more, and then complaining that I hadn't submitted any more. If I wasn't firmly on the wagon, after all that I might very well see the merits of a stiff drink. If my head is going to spin, I might as well enjoy it. AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:32, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

  Sigh, you know damn well that "If you've been drinking or something, walk away from the keyboard now" is not an allegation of drunkenness. And even if it were, so what? If somebody is inexplicably acting irrationally, impairment is a legitimate question. But I'm done spending any more of my time trying to save you from yourself. You want to be indef'd or TBANed DYK, have at it. Believe me, though, nobody is going to view you as a victim here. Levivich (talk) 22:37, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

  The burden of proof for your own claims is on no-one else but you. Also, this is ANI, very explicitly not the place for you to litigate content disputes. --Licks-rocks (talk) 22:27, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

• @AndyTheGrump I'd like to know why this was taken straight to ANI? It seems unnecessarily combative. We could have talked about this civilly on my talk page, as this was simply a misunderstanding over the relevance of the evidence. I was unaware of the recently deceased portion of the BLP policy. Anyways, I have added the example to the table in a neutral manner, so the issue brought up here is no longer relevant. Please avoid editorializing evidence and simply present links and a short description of the problem in the tables that have been created. I know others may disagree, but for the sake of objectivity I think we should accept older evidence. As I stated at the DYK talk page, editors are smart enough to know how to weigh older versus newer incidents in their comments. My guess is some will question the relevance of the older evidence at the RFC, and others will not. I don't think it will derail the RFC to be more inclusive in the evidence gathering process. Best.4meter4 (talk) 21:37, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

  My edit summary, when I reverted your initial hatting: Read WP:BLP. Read WP:BLP from 2012. Both make it absolutely clear that this DYK was within the scope of policy. And note that when you hatted it, I had already pointed out in my initial post in the thread you hatted that WP:BLP policy, then and now, was clearly in scope. If you failed to read WP:BLP after all that, it is down to you, and I really don't see why I should have been expected to discuss anything on the talk page of someone who then hatted the material again with no edit summary at all. That looks like a refusal to engage, not a request to talk it over. As for your comments about the relevance of older evidence, I have already tried to make the same point. The decision as to what is or isn't relevant needs to be made collectively, after an appropriate time has elapsed, when people can assess submissions as a whole. AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:53, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

  Actually, I wasn't aware that you had removed it. I mistakenly thought I hadn't saved the page as I have been having internet connectivity issues, and was in the middle of trying to set some guideline for productive posts. But this is besides the point, ANI shouldn't be the first step in conflict resolution. Please assume good faith and try and work with others through personal messages first rather than going directly to ANI. You are much more likely to win allies that way. I will set up a discussion thread for evidence issues to keep it separate from the list section. One reason why I hatted that conversation is I felt it could persuade others to not post evidence. We really need to keep the evidence gathering section simple and discussion free in order to not dissuade people from participating. If the evidence gathering area gets heated it could stop people from wanting to participate and choosing to put evidence forward which would harm the progression and ultimate outcome of the RFC.4meter4 (talk) 22:31, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

  The evidence section was entirely 'simple and discussion free' until people objected to me submitting any. AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:38, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

  Well I have accepted that submission. It's in the table. Let's move on.4meter4 (talk) 23:02, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

I don't see that this needs to be on ANI. OTOH, in an RFC of that sort it seems unhelpful for a involved editors to try to clerk in such ways, and especially to keep trying to clerk when there is dispute and where they clerking seems to be at least partially based on a serious misunderstanding of BLP. Also I'll be blunt that anyone who's understanding of BLP is so poor that they think it does not apply to the recently deceased probably shouldn't be so extensively involved in discussing the interaction of BLP-DYK anyway. Leave that for editors who actually understand BLP. Note also while there may be reasonable dispute over whether it's helpful to have such an old example it seems if the better solution if there is dispute over the hatting would be for editors who feel it's irrelevant to just say it's too old to be considered if needed and not participate in further discussion, rather than try and enforce a hatting. Ultimately the discussion would not be too distracting if editors do not participate. Nil Einne (talk) 00:19, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

@Nil Einne I may not be a BLP policy expert, but I don't think there is anyone else willing to take this on. I don't think it would be happening otherwise. I don't generally coordinate group discussions, and I would hope making some mistakes along the way would be met with some grace per WP:AGF. I have participated in many BLP related disputes at DYK in the last year; none of them involving recently deceased individuals, which is why my working memory on BLP issues had a gap. This is also not an RFC yet, so please don't refer to me as an RFC clerk. It's a talk page discussion gathering input before an official RFC proposal is made. The whole point of it is to draw on communal input in framing an RFC discussion. Other editors at DYK who want to assist and take on a leadership role are welcome and encouraged to pitch in, and I am trying to respond and adapt to others input as I go with an open heart and sense of service. I hope I will not be the only one involved in coordinating the discussion. We now have a table set up in the posting evidence section, and I will have a separate place for discussion if there are issues with anything posted in the table. What I wanted to avoid was lengthy disputes inside what was supposed to be a list. That is disruptive visually to a working list, and makes it hard to locate listed items. It's my fault for not having anticipated a need for a place to discuss disputed evidence ahead of time that was in a separate location from the list itself.4meter4 (talk) 01:34, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

(edit conflict) This is what it looks like when an editor has carte blanche to flip tables over and generally go nuts. I agree with Kusma who told ATG (paraphrase) help review or check prep sets - don't scare away the participants. I could hardly read the WT:DYK page as a result of foot stomping. It is not helpful or collegial. Lightburst (talk) 04:19, 16 May 2024 (UTC) my comments are not not needed.

1. AndyTheGrump opened a thread at WP:ANI referring to DYK contributors as "idiots".[122]
2. 4meter4 responded to the legitmate WP:BLP concerns in that thread by starting a discussion to list problematic DYK nominations and discuss common problems.[123]
3. AndyTheGrump responded by linking to discussions from over a decade ago where he called DYK contributors "halfwit"s and "morons".[124]
4. 4 different editors explained why this was derailing the discussion. ATG responded by casting aspersions about how "some would apparently prefer to exclude anything they would prefer not to get scrutiny".[125]
5. 4meter4 hatted that part of the larger discussion.

This is probably why we have Wikipedia:Civility as a policy. It's not realistic to expect editors to engage on preferred terms while insulting them, mocking them, and seemingly demanding that they post links to a WPO thread doxxing them.[126] I don't see an issue with 4meter4's conduct, Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 04:16, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Regarding the 'doxxing' please note that it wasn't there when I asked that evidence being presented against me was backed by the links that are a basic requirement of ANI threads. How is anyone supposed to respond to claims not backed up by evidence? At no point did I dox anyone, and for the record, I stopped posting at WPO over a month ago due to what I consider to be entirely inappropriate behaviour in that regard. Given that WP:CIVIL shouldn't apply to comments regarding non-Wikipedia-contributors over at WPO, I feel free in stating that I consider the 'doxxing' in that thread to be a further example of the sort of fuckwittery that led me to stop participating there. It seems readily apparent to me that certain individuals there are using the site to massage their own egos rather than as a forum for legitimate criticism, and they do so without the slightest regard for consequences. External scrutiny of Wikipedia is an absolute necessity, and no external site is ever obliged to follow Wikipedia rules, but if a forum wants to be taken seriously, it needs to show some evidence of wishing to be taken seriously. AndyTheGrump (talk) 04:44, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

At this point it almost seems like ATG wants sanctions; I can't help but think of why they thought it was a good idea to do this again.wound theology◈ 06:43, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

• ANI is for behavior that is urgent or that is intractable. Whatever one thinks of 4meter4's earlier hatting of a couple subthreads in a discussion at Wikipedia Talk:Did You Know that wasn't something as formal as an RfC or such, I don't see the matter as having been so urgent as to require ANI intervention, since this discussion presumably will last for quite a while yet (multiple days at a minimum; perhaps weeks) and there was plenty of time to let moods cool and to work out what evidence should or shouldn't be included. It also doesn't seem to be or have been all that intractable, with how 4meter4 has by now apparently taken feedback on board by apologizing for misremembering how the recently deceased factor into BLP, creating a section for discussion of disputed evidence, and overtly stating older evidence can be added to the table now created in that talk thread. This ANI thread doesn't seem to indicate much at issue in 4meter4's behavior. Instead it makes apparent that by doing nothing about AndyTheGrump's behavior, administrators and the community have failed to prevent that behavior from continuing. AndyTheGrump's treatment of other users is an intractable behavioral issue. Hydrangeans (she/her | talk | edits) 07:08, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Andy seems to have an overall issue with DYK and is throwing everything he can at the wall to see what sticks in an effort to get his way. It's absolutely disruptive and if he won't agree to step away & cool down, the community needs to enforce sanctions to stop the disruption. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 15:49, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

There have been three threads about ATG‘s behavior one of them boomeranged the other one had no action and this is the third one And they were all pretty recent I think the community needs to do something whether it be a warning a block a ban or whatever just something

ATG‘s behavior is unacceptable Maestrofin (talk) 07:12, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

We all know there were better ways for ATG to make a point or start a larger conversation. I am not sure that issues would have received the attention they have if ATG only whispered their concerns but I very much disagree with the way they started the conversation. I believe that ATG was right on BLP related hooks.

I feel like I can respond to the substance of ATG's argument now that the attack part of their message is over. I would be against sanctions for ATG at this point. I hope that ATG decides to do some background work at DYK as Kusma has suggested. There have been multiple conversations in the days after that first ATG post at ANI and some are not needed, like this one. Working in the DYK section of the project is difficult and stressful work at times - especially now. Lightburst (talk) 14:10, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

So, kick the can down the road until he does it again? And again? And Again? This is a repeat pattern, it's not going to get better. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 16:37, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

Nothing in the way of sanctions to consider so far. Just a general feeling that the discussions started by ATG have been disruptive. I cannot disagree with that. I think DYK has been disrupted enough. The project's volunteers are self-reflecting and involved in multiple discussions about how to move forward. I am not sure what we can do here besides close this discussion as it has run out of steam. If you have a proposal about ATG I am sure editors would consider it. Otherwise we are just loitering here. Lightburst (talk) 17:13, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

Proposal of indefinite block for AndyTheGrump

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

• Support as proposer. As multiple editors have observed in this and a prior thread, AndyTheGrump's violations of Wikipedia policies on civility and his ongoing disruptive behavior are part of a long-term and intractable pattern which is unlikely to improve. This block is a preventative measure to prevent future disruptive and uncivil behavior from harming the project, as the probability is high that AndyTheGrump will behave this way again. Rather than kick the can down the road, the community should enforce sanctions in order to preserve a collegial editing environment and protect editors from harm. Hydrangeans (she/her | talk | edits) 17:26, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
• Support a t-ban from DYK. I wouldn't like to see an indef from everything. I even kind of hate to see it from DYK, as I think constructive criticism from people who aren't regulars there can be very helpful. But Andy's contributions are a net negative at that project. I would not object to a t-ban from DYK, broadly construed. If we can get Andy to recognize that his ongoing contributions aren't productive there, maybe they could be constructive. But simply allowing him to continue to disrupt there because in general we consider him a valuable contributor is not the answer. From his own diffs from twelve years ago calling people morons and halfwits to this week's posts here calling people idiots, it's been going on for over a decade without anyone taking action. Enough is enough. He needs to figure out how to contribute productively or walk away. Valereee (talk) 17:38, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

  I agree with everything you wrote, but I'd say that he has walked away from DYK, at least for the last 48hrs. Right now -- today, yesterday -- there has been no disruption of DYK by Andy. If it happened again, yeah, TBAN, but it hasn't and perhaps the discussion so far has already been enough to prevent it from happening again. Perhaps if/when he comes back to DYK he'll be chill about it. If not, then TBAN, but for now, I gotta go with oppose TBAN, and because an indef proposal at ANI is equivalent to a siteban, oppose indef. Levivich (talk) 17:47, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

  This happened on the 15th. That's three days after his previous disruption on the same topic. What we're seeing is already the "if it happened again". Chaotıċ Enby (talk · contribs) 17:50, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

  Only if you're use the word "seeing" to describe something you saw three days ago. What I'm seeing is that WT:DYK has continued over the last few days, Andy has continued editing over the last few days, but Andy has not participated at DYK over the last few days. I agree with sanctioning people if they don't walk away; I don't agree with sanctioning people as they're walking away. Levivich (talk) 17:53, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

  So you're thinking not being disruptive for 48 hours is evidence he's finally after more than a decade straightened up and is ready to fly right? Well, obviously I'm very close to this discussion, but your opinion is one I trust. Valereee (talk) 17:57, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

  Not exactly, but I think his non-participation for 48 hours (while the discussion has actively continued at WT:DYK; I'd feel differently if the discussion just dried up over those 48 hours, but they didn't) is evidence that he has chosen to walk away.

  I see it this way:

  • There was no participation in, and thus no disruption of, DYK in January, February, March, or April of this year (as far as I know, from looking at his contribs, didn't go further than Jan)
  • He disrupted DYK on May 12, 13, 14, and 15th -- four straight days of disruption. During that time he almost got sanctioned and bunch of people told him to cut the crap.
  • Then, he continued editing (again: I'd feel differently if he wasn't actively editing) on May 16 and May 17 with (so far) no participation in or disruption of DYK.

  So 2 days of non-participation, following 4 days of disruptive participation, following months of non-participation. I'd be willing to give him the chance to walk away from it. Maybe he'll never come back to DYK. Maybe he'll come back but not be disruptive. Maybe he'll come back and be disruptive (or be disruptive elsewhere). If either of those last two things happened, I'd be in favor of severe sanctions (TBAN, indef). But for now, if walking away works, maybe give it a shot? I'll note also that he removed the "idiots" rant from his userpage following people complaining about it during these recent threads, which I also take as some sign of progress. I can understand if others don't think any more WP:ROPE should be given here. Call me a softy? Levivich (talk) 18:25, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

  I would also support a topic ban from Did You Know. Hydrangeans (she/her | talk | edits) 21:02, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

• Support a t-ban from DYK per Valereee. BorgQueen (talk) 17:45, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
• Support a t-ban from DYK per above, this was started only three days after the previous DYK-related drama and a t-ban would clearly be preventing more in the future. Chaotıċ Enby (talk · contribs) 17:47, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
• Strong support for a topic ban, mild support for an indef. I do think that there are serious issues here but I would like to see whether or not a topic ban can remedy them before declaring them truly intractable. As a side note I think that AndyTheGrump's name has given them a massive amount of leeway to be grumpy in a way that would have gotten other editors blocked... Which is not necessarily their fault I must add, they likely did not intend that consequence of their name. I know when I first encountered incivility from them I was amused more than anything else, it was funny that the behavior matched the name... As a result I didn't handle it like I would have from another editor which probably gave the idea that it was OK. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:56, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

  I didn't realize that worked; I should have named myself LevivichTheInsufferable (talk) 18:16, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

  there is a bizarre logic to it... Its a camouflage of some kind, on the opposite end we are very quick to scorn and block accounts with names like "CommonSenseJoe," "Edits-in-Good-Faith" and "Neutral Point of View Upholder." If you point out that AndyTheGrump is being unreasonably grumpy you look like a pedantic asshole no matter how right you are. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:54, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

• Comment I feel like Hydrangeans goes right to the nuclear option - as they did in the ANI about me (below). It is helpful to remember that we are all volunteers here. We should find the least restrictive way to stop a a disruption. I think as Levivich points out we are not stopping a (current) disruption with a Tban and a siteban is an overreach/nuclear option. I already made it clear in a previous thread/proposal that I was unhappy with the disruptions... but if they stopped we should get back to business. Lightburst (talk) 18:03, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

  We are indeed on balance largely volunteers, and that includes the victims of incivility. An ongoing pattern of incivility is itself restrictive as such behavior affects many editors, chilling participation by creating an unsafe environment where editors are obliged to fear and tiptoe around harassment. Hydrangeans (she/her | talk | edits) 20:59, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

  Editors who are eager to go for the nuclear option also create a chilling effect. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 21:11, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose Indef. This is shooting the messenger rather than dealing with the message. In this case, the latter is that the project is not fit for purpose. Of all our main page projects, it is the one most consistently questioned at WP:ERRORS. It is the one that leads to most ANI threads regarding its members. WP:FAC and WP:ITN manage to avoid the repeated dramah. The question is, why can't DYK? What is there about the project that attracts such ill-publicity? I assume it's because it does not, unlike the other projects, have the necessary rules, and the concomitant checks and balances, to ensure the strict adherence to core policies and guidelines that the rest of the community expects. You see what happens; the walled garden that is DYK approves something, and the moment it comes under scrutiny from editors who neither know nor care about the minutiae of DYK, inherent failures are exposed.
  Incidentally, I feel a new-found respect, if not warmth, towards the editor Lightburst. ——Serial Number 54129 18:14, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

  That question is easy to answer: DYK posts 9-18 8-16 new things per day; TFA posts 1 per day; ITN posts 1 per week. Just from this discrepancy in base volume, we can expect 10x or more WP:ERRORS reports from DYK than from TFA and ITN combined. Levivich (talk) 18:20, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

  It's not a numbers game. It's a matter of approach. Editors are not permitted to abrogate responsibility for the quality of their edits purely on account of their quantity. Do not talk to me again. ——Serial Number 54129 18:29, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

  Something that has been pointed out in multiple discussions, including an RfA. We can differ over whether DYK should exist, but the project produces 8-16 entries a day. AFIK it's the only place on the entire project with multiple deadlines every day. Valereee (talk) 18:26, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

  A 9th list item has snuck in today! Levivich (talk) 18:28, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

  It does that from time to time. DYK used to get huge criticism from not "balancing" ITN/OTD. Not sure whether this was an attempt at that. Sometimes it's that someone objects to a hook being pulled and not getting a "fair" time run. Valereee (talk) 18:33, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

  @Serial Number 54129, halfwit, moron, idiot, his own diffs. Some of which are from over a decade ago. Whether he's correct to be concerned seems like we're saying "It's okay to personally attack other editors as long as you have a point." We can criticize without becoming personal. Valereee (talk) 18:22, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

  Exposing this was indeed a good thing, but Wikipedia:Being right isn't enough, and Andy should learn to point grievances (especially important ones) without attacking and antagonizing other contributors. I also oppose indef for that matter, but a topic ban for DYK would definitely be a good thing (until Andy learns to work more constructively in a collaborative environment), because hostility is not counterbalanced by having an important message. Chaotıċ Enby (talk · contribs) 18:23, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

Chaotic Enby, that is true, yet I was referred to as a blatant homophobe, and transphobe but nobody suggested that is a PA. No sanctions. I am sure the editors who hurled the insults at me were filled with the same righteous indignation that ATG felt on this policy issue. Plenty of editors involved in the Tate discussion were prepared to ignore BLP in favor of a DYK hook that would portray him in a bad light. I am not saying the final hook reflected that, but the discussion was full of editors who felt like they had the moral high ground without consideration for WP:DYKHOOKBLP. Lightburst (talk) 18:36, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

It is a cruel irony that the editors who aggressively pursue a narrow vision of civility enforcement are typically unwilling to reflect on their own behavior. In this community, double standards are the norm. Name-calling is easy to spot, but a lot of editors don't look deeper at the effects of the more subtle forms of incivility that savvy veteran editors can dish out without consequence. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 21:13, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

To be clear, I wasn't involved in the other discussions Lightburst referred to, so, unless I misread this and their own behavior wasn't referring to me, I am genuinely curious what you mean by that. Chaotıċ Enby (talk · contribs) 22:42, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

It was a general remark not based on any single editor. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 13:42, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

Looking at the thread below, if that's what you're referring to, Liliana did not call you a homophobe, a transphobe, or "blatant" anything, but said of a comment you made that I can't read this as something that's not transphobic. Commenting on someone's character is a personal attack, but commenting on a specific action is not, and there is an important difference between both. Chaotıċ Enby (talk · contribs) 22:31, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

Chaotic Enby The title of the thread was something I took as a PA and it was only changed after I complained - you can click there to see the smear. Ironically the editor who made this very proposal (Hydrangeans) also attacked me saying, "...Lightburst makes Wikipedia less safe for trans editors". So yeah I see both of these things as a personal attack and uncivil. The irony is that Hydrangeans wants to indef ATG for incivility. Some PAs are more severe than others... I can take Andy's off hand idiots comment better than I can take a smear against my character or an accusation that I somehow threaten trans editors. Lightburst (talk) 23:21, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

Thanks, I didn't know about the original title of the thread. Chaotıċ Enby (talk · contribs) 23:34, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose Indef I'm honestly quite sympathetic to an editor who has identified a core problem with how Wikipedia operates and who has got a lot of flack for passionately bringing it up. I'm neutral on the DYK tban. Might be good for Andy's blood pressure in the long run but an indefinite block is definitely too far. Simonm223 (talk) 18:17, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

  @Simonm223, identifying it and calling editors halfwits, morons, and idiots is two different things. Passionate does not have to mean namecalling. Valereee (talk) 18:29, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

  I am not comfortable banning an editor from the whole project indefinitely over name calling. Simonm223 (talk) 18:31, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

  @Simonm223, indefinite does not mean infinite. An editor who is indef'ed can literally be unblocked five minutes later if they convince someone they sincerely mean to stop doing what they're doing. Valereee (talk) 18:36, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

  I am perfectly aware of what indefinite means. However I don't believe an indefinite block is an appropriate measure for name calling. Simonm223 (talk) 18:40, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

  For namecalling over a decade with no indication that they plan to stop? Valereee (talk) 18:46, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

  Generally speaking making four replies to every !vote that goes opposite the way you want doesn't persuade anybody. Simonm223 (talk) 18:50, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

  Believe me, I get that, and I'm not happy that I seem to be the only person here who is willing to get into the fact so many opinions are completely out of policy. It's not a comfortably position for me to be in.

  What I'm trying to make sure is seen is that you and multiple others are misunderstanding major points here. Blocks are not punishment. Indefs are not worse than time-limited. Personal attacks are not okay just because you have a point. Valereee (talk) 19:50, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

• Support non-indef block, weak support t-ban - Although Andy has identified a problem with DYK, calling the contributors "idiots" and the like not only violates one of Wikipedia's core pillars, but is actually detrimental to the progress he was trying to make by distracting people from the issue. As I stated in the previous 24 hour block proposal, Andy is still a respected editor in many areas of Wikipedia, but the incivility problem has been ongoing for many years with no signs of improvement. I don't know that an indef block is necessary, but a longer block (at least a week or two, maybe a month) to let him blow off some steam might be beneficial. If the incivility continues after the block expires, then I would support an indef. - ZLEA _T\^C 18:21, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose. I would like Andy to be able to participate in the upcoming RFC. I suggest a formal sanction that he has failed to follow WP:CIVIL with a warning that future incivility at DYK (or elsewhere) will result in an immediate block. This should alleviate concerns over future behavior problems, and provides a quick pathway forward to solve any continuing issues quickly should they arise. It simultaneously allows Andy to continue participating at an RFC where I think his perspective may have value.4meter4 (talk) 18:33, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

  @4meter4, are you suggesting a logged warning? Valereee (talk) 18:34, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

Valereee I'm not well versed in disciplinary proceedings on wikipedia. I was suggesting a warning with teeth where an admin can swiftly block without needing to discuss it first because of the prior warning. If that's done through a "logged warning" (I don't know what that is) then yes.4meter4 (talk) 18:38, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

Any admin can actually block without needing to discuss it first. The issue is that if it seems to be unjustified, people will object, and in the case of well-respected long-term contributers such as Andy, many users want to give more leeway, so there may be objections. A logged warning can help provide rationale to allow an admin to take an unpopular step. It sucks that that is what's necessary to deal with behavior issues from otherwise positive contributors who have some area in which they are simply apparently unable to contribute constructively, but there it is. Valereee (talk) 18:44, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for the explanation. I would definitely support a logged warning then.4meter4 (talk) 18:49, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

Me too. Levivich (talk) 19:26, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

Oh wait, nvm, that's already happened. Levivich (talk) 19:30, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose When closing the previous thread calling for a 24-hour block I noted that "There is a general consensus, even among thos who opposed the block, that Andy's tone in opening the above section was uncalled for and that he be more careful with his words in the future." That was three days ago, it's still right up the page. Andy hasn't been an issue at DYK for two of those three days, but now we're going for an indef? I'm not excusing his behavior, phrasing things the way he did is not conducive to collaborative editing and is ultimately self-defeating (see my own essay on how I learned this lesson), but I don't see how an indef is caleld for at this time. Just Step Sideways ^{from this world ..... today} 18:42, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

  @Just Step Sideways, Andy opened this. Valereee (talk) 18:45, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose Absolutely not, this is nothing more than an opportunist proposal. There wasn't any consensus on a 24 hour ban, so an indefinite block is far fetched at this point. This comes across as a reactionary measure to issues ATG raised in the main topic here. Despite his recent actions, as well as unnecessary edit warring at Andrew Tate (as some sort of reaction to the controversial BLP hook issue), he just needs to take a break and get some more sleep in his life. He's already been officially warned it seems, and there's nothing between that warning and now that deserves further punishment. Resurfacing failed proposals usually doesn't get very far. CommunityNotesContributor (talk) 19:06, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

  FWIW, blocks are never punishment, and an indef is not somehow "worse" than a 24-hr one. Indefs can literally be lifted five minutes later if an admin is convinced the person is willing to stop doing what they're doing. Valereee (talk) 19:44, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose indef, oppose t-ban, support short disciplinary block at most. Andy's behaviour falls very far from my threshold of an indefinite ban. He also doesn't cause significant damage to the DYK section, although admittedly he brings a fair degree of disruption there. I could support a temporary t-ban if other folks on the DYK team confirm that no other disciplinary action is feasible. — kashmīrī ^TALK 19:17, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

  As above, blocks are not punishment. Indefs are not somehow "worse" than time-limited blocks. Blocks are to prevent further disruption, which in this case is the ongoing for now over a decade habit of calling people idiots, halfwits, morons. Valereee (talk) 19:46, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

  I have a lot of respect for you Valeree, but I think your comment here points up the disconnect between how admins experience Wikipedia as compared to the rest of us. I suspect that most non-admins would strongly disagree with your statement that indefs aren't any worse than time-limited blocks. Sure, an indef block can be lifted in a short amount of time, but the blocked user has no way of knowing whether or not it will be lifted. And more often than not, the block will be reviewed by someone who has never been blocked themselves. Valeree, I note that you have never been blocked, so frankly you (and most other admins) don't know how it feels to be blocked, indef or otherwise. And again, I mean all of this with sincere respect because you are one of the good admins. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 21:29, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

  @Lepricavark, thank you for your kind words. Many admins are reluctant to lift a time-limited ban. Many assume it should be repected. An indef, unless it's by the community and is specified as "can be appealed in six (or whatever) months" is generally seen by basically all admins as "use your judgement; if you think this editor gets it, lift it." In fact many of us specify that when placing the indef. I very typically note "This can be lifted by any admin once they believe the editor is listening (or discussing, or has convinced you they understand and are willing/able to comply with policy)". I do understand that this isn't well-understood by non-admins, and that "indef" feels like "forever". I wish it were better understood by editors. Indef is actually kinder. Valereee (talk) 21:42, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

• Support topic ban from DYK. With apologies to Levivich, if the best argument for not tbanning Andy from DYK is that he hasn't commented there in the the last two days, that seems like a good argument for a topic ban. For me, the question is whether Andy can still contribute without attacking other editors. It seems settled that he can't engage at DYK. Mackensen (talk) 19:31, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose - Way over the top based on evidence provided. Abstain regarding DYK tban. I didn't find Andy's arguments about Andrew Tate persuasive in the most recent go-around, and don't find other people's arguments persuasive this time (if you don't think evidence from ten years ago is relevant, you have the ability to just ignore it or note as much and move on -- it looks like it only sprawled into something counterproductive because of the back-and-forth after the old evidence was presented). — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 19:49, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose both I don't see any new issue, and the rest is a re-do of the last ANI thread. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 19:56, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

  You realize Andy opened this "re-do"? Valereee (talk) 21:28, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

  Is Andy suggesting these sanctions? If not then no he did not open this re-do. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 21:47, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

  It's fairly commonly understood that when you bring something here, your own behavior is also going to be looked at. I hate the concept of boomerang, FWIW. But don't try to say this is a re-do of the last ANI thread. Andy brought this here. Valereee (talk) 21:54, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

  But..... he did not suggest these sanctions which are a redo of the last ANI. Whether it's this thread or just this boomerang part is just splitting hairs. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 21:58, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

  He brought the last one(? can't keep up) here too. When someone brings things here, they're going to end up with their own actions looked at. That's just unfortunately part of the process.

  Seriously all Andy needs to do is acknowledge their behavior was problematic, apologize, and promise never to do it again. That would completely be good enough for me and probably 99% of people here. Just say it, Andy: "I was wrong to call people halfwits, morons, and idiots. I apologize, and I won't do it again." Just say it. It's not really a huge ask. Valereee (talk) 22:05, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

  Yes I understand what a BOOMERANG is, but technicalities don't change my point. I also understand that you would like to see something done, as does everyone that has stated their opposition. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 22:12, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

  I actually don't want to see anything done. That's actually the last thing I want in this kind of situation with a productive, useful editor who is exhibiting disruptive behavior. What I want is for Andy to recognize the counterproductiveness of his strategy and change it. Only if he refuses do I think something needs to be done. Valereee (talk) 22:15, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

  Yes you have said so in your reply to his comment (I have read the thread), it doesn't relate to my point. Personally ATG could absolutely do with dialing down the grumpiness from 11, but I don't see anything here that wasn't in the last very recent thread (or the thread about that thread being closed) and continuing to press the same point isn't productive. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 22:30, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

  He. Brought. This. Here. If you think it wasn't worth bringing here, it's disruptive. Valereee (talk) 22:32, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

  (Note the comment above was only He. Brought. This. Here. when I posted this reply.) To be polite this back and forth obviously no longer has any worth. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 22:35, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

  Please don't change you comment after it has been replied to.(This has been explained as an edit conflict, so I've struck my request.)
  It wasn't disruptive to bring this here as ATG's post about the DYK that was pulled was valid and shouldn't have been hatted, yes it was old but it still fits the criteria.
  What has come of bringing it here is a rehash of the recently closed ANI thread, who brought it here in no way changes that fact. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 22:49, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

  Taking this to user talk. Valereee (talk) 22:57, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose Too severe. Maybe a temporary block or temporary restriction as a wake-up call. Something needs to change. And there are other reasons for block besides just preventative and punitive. North8000 (talk) 20:00, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
• Support (temporary?) T-ban I think I was pretty clear in my comment above, I opposed the last 24h block on the grounds that it wouldn't prevent anything, only to be confronted by another ANI case less than 24 hours later. Even some of the opposes here acnowledge that his behaviour is currently disruptive at DYK. I think some kind of timeout from that topic area is in order here. I hope a Tban appealable at the earliest in a couple months will achieve that. An indef is obviously excessive here. --Licks-rocks (talk) 20:52, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
• Response from AndyTheGrump. If the community considers it necessary to topic-ban me from DYK for submitting evidence of clear and unambiguous violations of WP:BLP policy in regard to DYK content in a thread that asked for evidence on the same subject, and then objecting when attempts were made to remove such evidence, then so be it. While I have in the past considered it my moral duty to draw attention to incidents such as the one where unconvicted individuals (easily identified from the article linked in the proposed DYK) were asserted as fact, in Wikipedia voice, to have 'cooked in a curry' an individual who has never actually been confirmed to be dead, never mind been murdered and disposed of in such a manner, I am certainly under no obligation to raise such issues here. I just hope that there will now be enough uninvolved contributors paying attention to proposed and actual DYK content to prevent such things happening again. AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:49, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

  Andy, I hope there will be, too. And I hope they can do it without calling anyone a halfwit, moron, or idiot. You know, it would probably go a really long way here if you'd just say something like "I was wrong to call anyone a halfwit, moron, or idiot. I sincerely apologize, and I commit to never doing that again."Valereee (talk) 21:18, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

  Unless you have anything new to say here, please just get over it. CommunityNotesContributor (talk) 22:26, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

  Ugh. I really feel like I would like to stop responding here, but this makes me think I need to. Why should we not deal with namecalling? Valereee (talk) 22:29, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

  Genuinely, I don't think responding to every single person in this thread is a good thing to do. Chaotıċ Enby (talk · contribs) 22:33, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

  I agree. I'm responding where I see someone misinterpreting policy, and when they respond to me, I'm again responding. It sucks. Valereee (talk) 22:36, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

  I get it. Sadly, while I agree with you that Andy has been disruptive and that an (appealable) topic ban should be a good thing, it's too easy to get stuck in these back-and-forths about policy, that ultimately lead to more heat than light. Chaotıċ Enby (talk · contribs) 22:40, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

  Because I suggested you get over it, you think you need to keep responding to most of the opposes here? The reason why we might not deal with someone who's called others an idiot, in certain circumstances, is being there is no consensus to do so (see previous discussion). It might be because despite the poor choice of words, the decision to approve that DYK, with that hook, with clear overwhelming objections, was clearly idiotic (the decision was very stupid). Even if the person who suggested the hook (you) or the person who approved it isn't an idiot. I think many people saw the personal attack of "idiot" and translated it to "idiotic", even if for those who are called an idiot it doesn't "hurt" any less. Sometimes it's also better to call out idiotic behaviour, even if done so in an awful manner. That's just my take of the situation at least, I hope you can accept that criticism. CommunityNotesContributor (talk) 22:43, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

  That's junk logic. It's the kind of argument that makes me want to support sanctions, just to rebut this way of thinking. I won't do that, though, but I will speak up to say: no, nope, no. We can say something is a BLPvio without calling editors idiots, morons, halfwits, etc. There is no way in which the heading of that ANI thread was justified, excusable, understandable, or otherwise okay. Levivich (talk) 22:55, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

  I'm pretty convinced ATG wasn't capable at the time of bringing it up in a civil manner (potential insult alert), not that this justifies his insults. I understood his anger, even if I don't find it particularly excusable. Maybe he will be able to again raise issues in a civil manner, in the future, like he has in the past. If not, then he'll end up getting banned. Overall I don't see petty name calling as being any worse than the vandals and disruptive editors that get warned before getting blocked, in fact I find it much less offensive personally. CommunityNotesContributor (talk) 23:35, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose both I'm not impressed with Andy's decision to open this thread, but as Levivich noted the disruption at DYK is not ongoing. While Andy should do a better of job of assuming good faith on the part of DYK regulars, I believe we are too hasty to talk of bans these days. The indef block proposal is well out-of-order. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 21:19, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

  He opened this two days ago. His response above shows zero indication he recognizes his personal attacks are an issue at all in dealing with his concerns about DYK. How is this not ongoing? Valereee (talk) 21:21, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

  LEPRICAVARK clearly referenced that the disruption at DYK isn't ongoing, nothing else. Clearly this discussion is still ongoing, because users such as yourself expect an apology, which you're almost certainly not going to get. Maybe give the badger a rest? CommunityNotesContributor (talk) 22:23, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

  I hate to keep answering here, but because you asked...why should we not expect an apology, @CommunityNotesContributor? I mean, we got called names. Why is an apology something we shouldn't expect? It's a pretty minor request. Valereee (talk) 22:28, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

  The exact same reason as my previous wikilink for you. Because no one is obligated to satisfy you. In summary; you're not entitled to an apology, even if you deserve one. CommunityNotesContributor (talk) 22:47, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

  Taking to user talk. Valereee (talk) 23:00, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose I would have supported this the day ATG posted that thread, but now it's stale and there has been no further offense that I'm aware of. I do support doing it right away the next time it happens, if it does happen again. – Muboshgu (talk) 22:37, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

  I definitely support giving some sort of final warning to put ATG on notice. – Muboshgu (talk) 01:10, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

  For reference sake see BLP incivility warning that was given. CommunityNotesContributor (talk) 01:13, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

• oppose This isn't timely, and besides, the "shooting the messenger" angle on this has dominated the thread from the start. When Wikipediocracy can sustain a 19 page thread consisting mostly of untrue DYK hooks, it's obvious that the process is failing, and I say this as someone who, back in the day, submitted several dozen DYKs, so it's not as though I haven't been there. The hook in question was baldly pulled out of context, and should never have been promoted; whether or not one wants to call this "idiocy", seizing on AtG's choice of derogation plainly turned onto a way of ducking the issue that this hook and many others should have been caught and kept off the front page. I am not bloody-minded enough lacking in the kind of emotional emotional energy and the time to deal with DYK's problems, but they are obvious, and it is apparently fortunate that those who complain eventually lose their tempers over the frustration of dealing with the various enablers, lest something be done about it. Mangoe (talk) 23:38, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

  Christ on a cracker, Mangoe, would you get the facts straight. Levivich (talk) 00:21, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose At the top of this page it says, "include diffs demonstrating the problem." Instead, the proposer opened this thread by saying, "As multiple editors have observed in this and a prior thread, AndyTheGrump's violations of Wikipedia policies on civility and his ongoing disruptive behavior are part of a long-term and intractable pattern which is unlikely to improve."

The lack of information in the proposal means that only editors familiar with whatever lead to this will know what the issues are. This discourages uninvolved editors from commenting which can adversely affect the outcome.

TFD (talk) 23:04, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose. The punishment seems disproportionate to the offense, though it may become proportionate later if the behavior continues. —Compassionate727 ^(T·C) 23:34, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
• Comment: Close reading of this thread reveals a link Levivich provided: Special:Diff/1223676400. See also the exchange beteen Andy and ScottishFinnishRadish on Andy's talk page here. The warning has been placed and logged, and Andy has acknowledged it. As such I think this entire thread is moot and I oppose further sanctions (including sanctions dependent on whether an apology is given). ---Sluzzelin talk 01:20, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

  The warning (on 13 May) was for the previous incident, while this thread is about more recent behavior (more specifically, the thread that Andy opened on 15 May). Chaotıċ Enby (talk · contribs) 13:03, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose indef. Was his first logged warning for incivility this week? Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 03:34, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

  No, I believe he's had a number of temp bans before. wound theology◈ 13:40, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose indef - I do not see any argument that AndyTheGrump is a net negative for the building of an encyclopedia. He has both positive and negative impact on DYK, by objecting to BLP violations, and by objecting to BLP violations uncivilly. He has both positive and negative impact on normal editing, by building the encylopedia, and by being uncivil. I don't see an argument that the negative outweighs the positive. Robert McClenon (talk) 04:49, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

  @Robert McClenon the thing about the "net negative" analysis is that assumes that the editor in question is more important than the editors on the receiving end of the negative behavior. Put into words it seems less noble: "AndyTheGrump is more important than Valeree, so they'll just have to deal with his behavior, sorry." Inevitably, this is also a situation where the editor could modify their behavior to remove the negative aspect, but won't, which leaves this: "We think what AndyTheGrump does is more important than treating Valeree with respect, sorry." Note that the "sorry" isn't actually an apology, but more of a shrug of the shoulders, as though there's nothing to be done. Mackensen (talk) 12:35, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

  User:Mackensen - No. I didn't say or mean that, but that does imply that I wasn't clear in what I was weighing against what. It appears that you are saying that the harm that Andy does by being uncivil to other editors outweighs the benefit to the encyclopedia, and we can disagree civilly (since neither you nor I are editors who have a civility problem.) I never meant it to be a matter of weighing editors against other editors, but of saying that ATG has a beneficial effect on the content of DYK and of normal editing. I would also add that I am less worried about treating an established editor like Valereee with the respect that she deserves, and has from the rest of the community, than about treating a new but useful editor with the respect that is due to any human. If you are saying that he does more harm by being disrespectful than the benefit of his editing, then we at least know what we disagree about. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:00, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

  I never meant it to be a matter of weighing editors against other editors I think this is the nub of our disagreement. An editor's negative contributions don't take place in a vacuum, and they aren't borne by the encyclopedia writ large, but by individual editors. Sometimes those are experienced editors, sometimes not. Whether you mean to or not, I think if you adopt the net-positive/net-negative framework you're choosing one editor over another. Mackensen (talk) 17:08, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

  Also, I didn't make a statement about a topic-ban from DYK, and I am still not making a statement about that, so I don't think that I am disagreeing with User:Valereee. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:04, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

  FTR, again: I really don't care that Andy called me an idiot. I'm sure I'm often an idiot in multiple ways. What I want is for him to stop calling people idiots, period. That literally is all I care about. If he'd just say, "I will henceforth stop namecalling", I'd be happy to move along. Valereee (talk) 17:15, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

  Having seen the inflammatory heading in which ATG started this discussion, before he changed the inflammatory heading, I have stricken my Oppose, because I can see the argument that he is a net negative. I have not !voted on an indef block or a topic-ban at this time. I probably won't vote in this section, because the combination of !votes on indef and !votes on DYK ban will confuse almost any closer as it is. Robert McClenon (talk) 03:47, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

• Support non-indef ban and perhaps a topic ban based on the above. Warnings clearly aren't doing the trick. wound theology◈ 13:46, 18 May 2024 (UTC)
• This thread is aimed at banning or blocking ATG because he is being perceived as being disruptive on the discussion about DYK - the disruption appears to be complaining here about his points being removed from that discussion because they referred to events that were too old. I strongly hope that is isn't what was intended by anyone, but it looks like that this is an attempt to shut down opposition to the status quo. This is not a good look for Wikipedia and does encourage others to take part in the discussion.Nigel Ish (talk) 17:13, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

  No, this not an attempt to shut down opposition to the status quo. The way we know this is that the person who was reported here by Andy agrees with Andy about problems with the status quo, as do many of the people supporting sanctions. Levivich (talk) 17:25, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

• Prefer T-ban from DYK but block if necessary. The unapologetic and ongoing personal attacks, battleground behavior, and disruption, are the problem. We shouldn't censor the important underlying discussion of DYK vs BLP but AndyTheGrump is doing a great job of effectively doing that himself by making it all about his grumpyness instead. Getting him away from the issue is the first step in shedding light instead of heat on the issue. —David Eppstein (talk) 19:03, 18 May 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose. An indef is a silly overreaction, and a TBAN doesn't seem reasonable either -- where is the long-term and/or ongoing disruption there? Andy is kind of an asshole about perceived incompetence in general, but the community has repeatedly concluded, including in an earlier 24-hr block proposal, that his behavior doesn't rise to the level of offense or volume to necessitate a block. So if his comments aren't "bad enough" for an acute block, and there isn't a sustained pattern of harassing DYK in particular, I don't see how a TBAN benefits the project. JoelleJay (talk) 20:58, 18 May 2024 (UTC)
• Support indef block also fine with DYK topic ban Like my oppose in the last 24 hour block proposal, there's no evidence that the editor is going to change how they treat their fellow editors here. --Lenticel ^(talk) 01:13, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
• Comment: to make everybody happy, I support a three months block from DYK. tgeorgescu (talk) 03:22, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose indef. I thought long and hard about this. Andy has attacked me many, many times in the deep past, and frankly, they have never really bothered me, because I knew they were coming from someone who had good intentions, intentions which make nice, decorative paving stones on the golden road to Hell. Viriditas (talk) 21:09, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose sanctions as shooting the messenger, though Andy would be well advised to tone it down. Bon courage (talk) 07:36, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose per Just Step Sideways ~Awilley (talk) 15:58, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose both. There's certainly nothing like cause for an indef here. I could see a T-ban happening if AtG continues this level of DYK-related invective and we end up back here again with the same approach still in evidence. But some of AtG's concerns are valid, and this is not TonePolicePedia.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  02:03, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose block or topic ban per Bon courage, if further incivility occurs though, I may vote differently in the future. starship.paint (RUN) 06:53, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
• TLDR I think I got the gist, but seriously, sheesh. From what I did gather, though, no. Don't do it. InedibleHulk (talk) 09:55, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

A Contrarian Thought: Send to ArbCom

I think that we are looking at two overlapping issues involving conduct that the community is unable to resolve. The first is the conduct of User:AndyTheGrump, and the second is conduct and interactions at Did You Know. I am aware that some editors probably think that we are about to resolve these issues, that this thread is about to be the last thread, and that if repeating oneself four times hasn't been persuasive, repeating oneself six times definitely will either persuade or exhaust others.

I am aware that I am often in a minority in thinking that such recurrent issues should be referred by the community to ArbCom, and in thinking that ArbCom should accept such recurrent issues on referral by the community. I am also aware that in modern times, as opposed to the twenty-oughts, ArbCom normally does not accept cases about individual users, which is one reason why there is the concept of unblockables, who are misnamed, because they are actually editors who are often blocked and often unblocked, and are not banned. Well, AndyTheGrump has actually avoided being blocked for a decade, and so maybe really is unblockable. In any case, the community has not resolved the issue of this editor. It also appears that the issues about Andy at DYK may be the tip of the iceberg of issues at DYK.

I will throw in an observation that the arguments offered in the above thread about whether the biographies of living persons policy trumps or is trumped by the civility policy are erroneous. One is a content policy, and the other one is a conduct policy, and both should be and can be non-negotiable. But if a conflict between these policies is perceived, it may be a symptom of something that is wrong. I would suggest that what is wrong is using biographies of inherently controversial living persons to be used in Did You Know, but that is only my opinion. If a case is opened by ArbCom, ArbCom should state as principles that the biographies of living persons policy is non-negotiable, and that civility is the fourth pillar of Wikipedia, because those principles apparently need to be restated.

It is my opinion that the issues of interactions at Did You Know and the conduct of AndyTheGrump are not being resolved by the community and should be addressed by ArbCom. I don't expect consensus on my opinion. Robert McClenon (talk) 18:18, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

It probably isn't in my best interests to comment on whether my issues with civility (Yes, I know I have them, I have acknowledged the fact) merit an ArbCom case. As for whether ArbCom is the appropriate venue for tackling some of the ongoing issues with DYK content, with the flaws in process that creates said content, and perhaps with the behaviour of some contributors there, I suspect most people will suggest that those involved should be given a chance to tackle the problems themselves first. Preferably taking input from the broader community, which has sometimes appeared reluctant in the past to get involved, but clearly ought to. If, however, ArbCom is to become involved, I would strongly argue that it needs to look into it in its entirety, starting from no premise beyond that there have been recurring issues with content of all kinds, and that the appropriate way to proceed is to ask for evidence first, in an open-ended manner, and only then to attempt a resolution. Attempts to frame problems narrowly in advance tend, even if done with good intent, to mask deeper underlying causes, making a permanent resolution impossible. AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:43, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

Agree with devolving to ArbCom. These discussions regarding DYK are getting nowhere. There is lack of clarity over how BLP policy interacts with DYK, if it does at all, with the ambiguous wording: "Hooks that unduly focus on negative aspects of living persons should be avoided" being the biggest problem and interpreted in multiple different ways from users at DYK. One interpretation is that if the negativity is due, then hooks can be negative, and therefore can "override" BLP policy. The other is that negative BLP hooks shouldn't be used, regardless of being due, or otherwise controversial figures shouldn't be featured at DYK at all (with a neutral/positive hook). Clarity needed. CommunityNotesContributor (talk) 18:50, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

Comment. Isn't this jumping the gun? I would think the RFC that is currently being constructed would directly address many of the problems being raised here, and would provide for a much wider range of community participation and comment to solve these issues. It would be in the community's best interest to allow for wide community comment and participation rather then to limit the investigation to a small ArbCom panel. I would say we give the RFC a chance to do its work before determining whether going down the ArbCom path is necessary.4meter4 (talk) 19:02, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

There is no appetite for a restriction on ATG based on multiple discussions. Taking this to the next forum after the community votes seems like a forum shop. And about DYK: if you want the editors to get the message and work on tightening up reviews, BLP issues and other DYK related criteria... that is happening right now. RM, I do not think arbcom is the place for this. Nobody is saying what you have said lack of clarity over how BLP policy interacts with DYK, if it does at all. See our DYKCRIT and BLPHOOK guides.

There are issues with - as I said in the Tate discussion... "the politics of whomever happens to be editing". One administrator in the discussion rejected the premise of that statement and so did other editors. It felt like politics because as I said in the discussion, Tate is a sort of anti-woke figure. Many editors were announcing their dislike of Tate. An admin said we had to protect children. See for example, Theleekycauldron (TLC) - most would agree they are a DYK expert, but they decided to push very hard for a negative hook as did many other's who called for Tate to be "taken down". At the time I pushed back as did a few other editors, but we were outnumbered, Honestly it was many editors including TLC and most of them are MIA from this discussion and others. I sarcastically asked TLC if they were playing a Jedi Mind Trick when they said a "neutral" hook would actually be unduly positive.

It felt very bizarre to be in that discussion and have seasoned editors demanding negative hooks about a blp against our very clear DYK guidelines. The hook that was run, while negative, was Tate's own words and it was written by an Arb member. An admin added it to the nomination so we went with it. Kudos to EpicGenius who wrote a good neutral hook that was not added to the nomination. If you have not read the discussion yet, please do!. It is a must read if you want to see how the sausage is made. Lightburst (talk) 20:40, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

I checked your DYKCRIT and BLPHOOK guides. So negative hooks can be run, based on DYKBLP then right? Why was there even an issue in the first place, can you address that question? CommunityNotesContributor (talk) 00:48, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

• ArbCom would likely only rule on editor conduct. I'd be very surprised if they did anything about the DYK process itself. That kind of change probably has to come from the community, and the RFC that is in the process of forming seems like an ideal place to do it. The only reason to request an ArbCom case now instead of after the RFC would be if we think that there are conduct issues at DYK so severely entrenched that even the RFC would not be able to stop them. I'm not quite sure we're there yet. Pinguinn 🐧 03:12, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

  User:Pinguinn - I agree that ArbCom is unlikely to rule on the DYK process. I have not studied the DYK process, but it is my non-expert opinion that the process is broken partly because of underlying conduct issues. For that reason I am pessimistic that a viable DYK reform RFC will be launched in the next few weeks. I know that other editors are more optimistic than I am, so that efforts at a community solution will continue. If an RFC is assembled and launched, I will be glad to see it run. If the RFC development process bogs down, I will see that as further evidence that ArbCom investigation is needed. Robert McClenon (talk) 04:03, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

• I don't think ARBCOM will want to rule on the questions at hand regarding DYK. How NPOV, BLP, and really short-form entries on the Main Page (the same issues apply to ITN) interact is a community matter. If there are issues in the actions of editors besides ATG, they have not really been fully discussed by the community. CMD (talk) 04:13, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
• Arbcom is the wrong venue; it's for the community to decide what (if anything) to do about DYK. For example, a fundamental question might be how compatible with a serious encyclopedia it is to have click-baity trivia on the front page. Arbcom doesn't decide stuff like that. Bon courage (talk) 07:35, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
  • Agreed. ArbCom has widened the extent of its advisory authority in certain respects over recent time--and to be perfectly honest, not always in ways that I think are entirely right and proper within this community's framework of consensus authority--but something like the issue of the tonal character of DYK and how the space intersects with core content policies is still very much a broader community issue in both scope and subject matter.
    That said, ArbCom may very well take an interest in users who cannot contribute to DYK (or any space) without calling users idiots and morons and otherwise just acting in a pernicious and disruptive fashion. Those kinds of matters are very much within their remit. And unfortunately, that's probably where things are headed, now that the idea has been floated here. It doesn't take a community resolution to petition ArbCom to look into such a matter and at this juncture, sooner or later someone is going to become frustrated with the community's failure to act on brightline violations of WP:PA, WP:BATTLEGROUND, and WP:TEND and just follow that route.
    Honestly it's really unfortunate: all of these people who thought they were cutting Andy some slack even as he has popped up repeatedly here over the course of weeks, have unwittingly contributed to a much more negative likely outcome for him. He's going to get burnt ten times worse at ArbCom that the comparably very tame measures that have been previously proposed to try to drive home the point about his more altogether unacceptable conduct towards his fellow editors.
    But not only did far too many editors fail to tell Andy that his PAs were unaccpetable, but, even more problematically some even endorsed his belief that he is entitled to make such comments if he's convinced he is pushing the right idea or can provide a reason for why he is just too valuable to the project. This was the last thing this editor needed to hear in the circumstances, and by trying to supplant established community consensus as codified in our core behavioural policies with this subjective standard, Andy has now been left exposed in situation where ArbCom comes into the picture, as a body which has both a broad community mandate to enforce our actual policies, and a very meticulous and formal approach to those standards. Basically some of Andy's would-be allies and those uninvolved community members who endorsed kicking the can down the road have possibly traded a short-term block for a TBAN or indef, in the longterm. The whole situation is all very foolish and self-defeating, all around. SnowRise ^{let's rap} 08:03, 23 May 2024 (UTC)
• Comment. The RFC is now open at Wikipedia talk:Did you know#RFC on DYK and BLP policy. All are welcome to participate.4meter4 (talk) 16:59, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

  This solves the procedural issue at DYK, but the second overlapping issue, which relates to user conduct, is still open. Chaotıċ Enby (talk · contribs) 18:11, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

  Discussion on saction for user conduct is closed now. starship.paint (RUN) 08:07, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

Elinruby and BATTLEGROUND

Elinruby is currently involved in the broader, generally good effort to address the hard POV shift that occurred recently at Canadian Indian residential school gravesites and is being separately discussed at RSN. The Canadian article needs fixing and the edits earlier this month that suggested the gravesites were somehow fake are extremely bad. However, Elinruby's conduct has demonstrated the same BATTLEGROUND abuse of procedure and accusations/aspersions that have resulted in them receiving previous reports ([127]), warnings ([128]), and a block ([129]).

• Accusations of another editor whitewashing mass murder: [130]
• Accusing me of inserting fake news and then removing reliably sourced material, followed by refusing to engage in discussion when more recent reliable sources were presented: [131]
• Adding numerous spurious tags despite citations and relevance been immediately present (the tag if these are all arsons, say that. Stuff burns all the time in British Columbia is especially bizarre because the next paragraph explicitly discusses that these were largely arsons): [132]
• Saying they don't need to engage in discussion and suggesting that I'm racist for quoting a CBC News investigation that determined a link between outrage with the gravesites and a rise in arsons: [133]
• When asked to refrain from this behavior, they declared their talk page out of order for the next 24 to 48 hours and presented a list of Q and As, apparently gloating about having triggered other editors: [134]

Look: a different editor did heavily maul the article to suggest the gravesites were fake and that's bad. But Elinruby's longstanding pattern of unsubstantiated personal attacks has been particularly hurtful for me when, for the last two months, most of my time at my real-life job has been helping Native high school students establish action plans for their nations to take in addressing generational trauma caused by the boarding school system. This behavior has to be stopped. ~ Pbritti (talk) 19:13, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

Related: Wikipedia:Administrators’ noticeboard/IncidentArchive1150 § Elinruby’s conduct. Northern Moonlight 22:07, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

Blocked – for a period of one week: User talk:Elinruby#Block. El_C 22:11, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

apparently gloating about having triggered other editors: On reading the diff, something seems taken out of context. The text is Q[uestion]. But this Wikipedia article says it didn't A[nswer]. IF/ELSE branch triggered, return to GO [line break] Q. Why are you editing that article? A. IF/ELSE branch triggered, return to GO. I'm not 100% sure what it is saying, but I don't see a plain read where it constitutes gloating about triggering editors. "IF/ELSE" seems to refer to some abstract situation (possibly saying ElinRuby themselves is being 'triggered', as in prompted/motivated, to edit an article?). If there is some reason to 'translate' "IF/ELSE branch" as meaning people, I'd be interested in knowing.

By way of context for different editor did heavily maul the article, there is an RSN discussion (permanent link) about the use of unreliable sources in Canadian Indian residential school gravesites. Hydrangeans (she/her | talk | edits) 03:31, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

Computing pseudocode. If else is a common conditional; they're just sending the reader back to the top of FAQ with the "return to GO". Pretty sure trigger here is the general trigger, not trauma trigger. The two questions for which the answers are of that form are pretty basic "don't ask" questions on Wikipedia, so I don't see any problem specifically with those. I don't see a problem with the FAQ at all, unless the doubling down on the "whitewashing" claim is baseless, which I have not checked yet. — Usedtobecool ☎️ 04:42, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

It's a mistake to get caught up in the granular details of the items I collapsed. Because this happened in the midst of and seemingly in response to a related dispute (and a discussion a few sections up), it comes across as WP:BATTLEGROUND. Also in tone and tenor. And since it happened less than a day after a warning from another admin, I stand by the action. El_C 05:34, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

The "trigger" aspect that was brought up which I worried could derail discussion over a misunderstanding is what triggered my comment. Your block notice says a lot more and describes a long-term pattern (in fact, kudos to you for completely skirting that detail in all your comments), so indeed the granular details of that one thing are otherwise largely irrelevant. Except for the diffless doubling down on "whitewashing" accusation, the FAQ probably didn't need to be collapsed, would be as far as I would go based on what I know so far, if I were to challenge your actions, which I didn't, and don't, because the whitewashing accusation is grave, and diffless. Best, — Usedtobecool ☎️ 05:54, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

I read the whole thing after reading Elinruby's copied-over comments below, and it never occurred to me that that misinterpretation was from the "IF...ELSE triggered" comments, but I understood that to be pseudocode. I thought the misinterpretation came from how closely Elinruby's section headers resembled the "you mad bro" meme, which is related to triggering and, if that was the intent, was incredibly unwise to have written while too hot. I'm not sure about the rest at this point. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 14:24, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

OP put the "triggered" in quotes, and that's where the word occurs in the diff cited. — Usedtobecool ☎️ 15:12, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

• From User talk:Elinruby (permalink):

The links and quotes below deal with some very disturbing history about documented murders of small children. Viewer discretion is advised.

I read that last post of SFR's as friendly advice from an admin I had just informally asked for an explanation of 1RR, not a formal warning. I am assuming that he thought "genocide" was an exaggeration. It is not. There was a formal finding to that effect by the Canadian House of Commons and Pope Francis has also said precisely that. [135][136] Certainly legalities prevented the Truth and Reconciliation Commission from saying so, but that doesn't mean they weren't scathing.[137][138] Or specific. Or that they didn't show the receipts. I hope SFR is enjoying his ducklings and I am not requesting he comment unless he wants to; he has enough going on.

I think that Pbritti misunderstood a number of things but that these aspersions may well have been made in good faith. The block log for example:

• current diff 145: a complaint that I gave an editor with ~100 edits a CT notice, which they interpreted as uncivil. Closed with no action by Star Mississippi (thank you, no comment needed unless you want to)
• current diff 146: Discussed with El C in the block section on my talk page if anyone cares. TL;DR: ancient
• current diff 147: Shortly before this LTA indeffed themself they page-blocked me for discussing changes to an article on its talk page. Not pinging them because they indeffed themself

Then the complaint itself:

• Accusations of another editor whitewashing mass murder: I actually should have said that they denied it. The article whitewashed it; they denied it based on a skim of that article. The context is here: [139] To my horror I discovered that the article did indeed say that. But let's get through these points.

• Accusing me of inserting fake news: The first time I ever heard of Pbritti was when he came to my talk page and threatened to take me to ANI.
• removing reliably sourced material: One broken ref for two paragraphs about three-year old unproven allegations
• refusing to engage in discussion when more recent reliable sources were presented: three-year-old source about a three-year-old tweet. The publisher itself is considered reliable, yes.
• spurious tags despite citations and relevance been immediately present: Uh...no. see next bullet point.
• the tag "if these are all arsons, say that. Stuff burns all the time in British Columbia is especially bizarre because the next paragraph explicitly discusses that these were largely arsons": Pbritti seems unfamiliar with the British Columbia wildfire season.[140][141][142] The same week, Lytton spontaneously combusted in temperatures of 49.6 °C (121.3 °F). But the key phrase is "the next paragraph". The section starts out of nowhere: By July 4, 2021 nearly two dozen churches...had been burned. He quoted the middle of what I said also, btw, please click the diff for context. The section implies that indigenous people committed arson, but no RS say so. The relevance tags have been removed now because they are "addressed by sanction". Go team Wikipedia!
• Saying they don't need to engage in discussion: Misinterpretation of I don't think there is much to discuss. Accuracy is a requirement.
• suggesting that I'm racist: Pbritti is once again again personalizing a remark about content: If you are talking about the unsourced allegations that indigenous peoples are committing crimes, I find the assertions racist and unfit for Wikivoice
• CBC News investigation that determined a link: One person found guilty so far: Mentally ill and mad at her boyfriend. Ethnicity unspecified. Something about correlation and causation and original research. That content still merits a HUGE {{so?}} tag.
• When asked to refrain from this behavior, they declared their talk page out of order for the next 24 to 48 hours: I won't stop thinking that accuracy is important. I tried to reply to Pbritti's good-faith admonishments, but he just kept going...
• apparently gloating about having triggered other editors:Capably translated by Usedtobecool; thank you
• a list of Q and As: It mentions no names and I am surprised that people are complaining that the shoe fits.

This is long so I will close by thanking Hydrangeans for pointing out the RSN thread, which also has two diffs of some definitely uh misinterpreted sources. Elinruby (talk) 17:02, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

copied by Usedtobecool ☎️ 09:34, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Pinged note, no comment at this point which should not be interpreted to mean anything but a lack of awareness of and familiarity with the situation as I've been offline since Friday and this appears to be an indepth issue. I will read up on this and see whether I can assist. My involvement is as @Elinruby notes it above but I've had no further involvement with the topic as far as I'm aware and standard engagement with Elinruby. Star Mississippi 01:01, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

• Elinruby made 145 mostly small edits to the article between 13:14, 17 May and 10:00, 18 May (all times UTC), or a bit less than a day. Flurries of activity on controversial topics like this are often related to real-world events, like the release of new information related to the investigations, but I'm not aware of anything having happened to attract this attention recently. Elinruby wasn't the first mover in this recent activity, though: another editor removed quite a lot of info about a week before this and added some contrary info based on suspect sources, there's active discussion on the talk page and at RSN about it. I don't know if Elinruby was just trying to correct that and found more problems (the article does need updating) but it would have been better if Elinruby would have slowed down when editors started challenging their edits, like the others have, and it was especially poor form to ignore being pinged on the article talk and telling editors on their user talk to go away, and so I can't help but endorse the block as an involved admin. Might I suggest commuting their block to a pblock from the article, so they can participate in the ongoing discussions? Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 14:45, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

  Per El_C, I leave it to any uninvolved admin to adjust this block as they see fit (including lifting it outright) in response to an unblock request. I need not be consulted or even notified. What we're lacking is a reasonable unblock request. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 14:49, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

  I can likely explain how Elinruby's edits came about as they did. They and I were involved in a content discussion with Springee that, admittedly, had gotten off topic on the Jordan Peterson page (I concurred such in the thread). In the course of this off-topic discussion Springee raised the contents of this page as contradicting a point Elinruby made in the discussion. Both Elinruby and myself reviewed the page and were alarmed by what we found. However, on account of it being the first warm long-weekend of the year in PEI and me having a rather full schedule I was mostly editing mobile, which leads to me not doing much in the way of labour-intensive editing due to the limitations of the platform. Also my preferred strategy is generally to approach contentious topics via article talk and appropriate noticeboards as soon as I can - which would lead to slower corrections.

  As a result Elinruby ended up taking on much of the work of fixing the POV problems on the page. In general, and notwithstanding the behavioural matters raised here, I think most of their edits to the page were a net-improvement as it had experienced some profound WP:NPOV failings when we saw it. I raised one of these at WP:RS/N and you can see how that turned out here. Simonm223 (talk) 14:59, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

  Generally speaking, Elinruby's content contributions were sound and consistent. However, they appear to have intentionally avoided constructive discussion and consideration of concerns per this on their talk page: as much as possible as quickly as possible because I could hear the drumbeat coming to take me to ANI. Their content work was fine. Their behavior towards fellow editors and unwillingness to accept responsibility for their policy-violating aspersions is the issue. ~ Pbritti (talk) 15:21, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

Requesting TPA revocation and block extension

Elinruby has repeatedly lied about their interaction with me and continued to personally insult me on their talk page:

• When asked to provide a reasonable unblock request, they replied with I could apologize for overestimating Pbritti:s reading skills
• They falsely claim The first I ever heard of Pbritti was when he came to my talk page and threatened to take me to ANI, despite me having pinged them multiple times previously in a discussion they had started and them having left an edit summary that acknowledged me prior to said talk page warning
• They claimed a hostile notice they added to their talk page mentions no names–despite pinging me with @Pbritti: please see section below immediately after adding it.
• The block has not dissuaded them from continuing this behavior in the future, as evidenced by their unblock requests and this reply

I am not keen on the project allowing further ROPE for someone who has been warned so many times for their personalizing hostile behavior between ANI and the Arbcom enforcement log. Pinging El C as original blocking admin. ~ Pbritti (talk) 03:36, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

@Pbritti: The diff for left an edit summary is linking to a 2008 revision. – 2804:F14:80E4:8401:DCFE:5436:C21:470C (talk) 03:44, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

@2804:F14:80E4:8401:DCFE:5436:C21:470C: Thanks, I must've deleted a digit. Fixed. ~ Pbritti (talk) 03:47, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose - I do not see anything there that requires revoking TPA. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 20:40, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose. Insufficient to revoke TPA. I would prefer not to extend the current block, having to wait for it to expire sends the right signal for now IMO. NicolausPrime (talk) 21:03, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose because I'm not even convinced that the original block was good. Particularly the triggered accusation seems difficult for me to read in good faith: it's very difficult for me to imagine any good faith editor reading that as a reference to trauma triggers. And upon reading them closely none of the others seem to be anything but curt. I agree Elinruby has not responded great to the block, but like, it seems very kafkaesque to me to block someone because of their behavior in response to a block that shouldn't have happened. Loki (talk) 03:25, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

There appears to be an unusual obsession with analyzing that single word instead of reflecting on the totality of Elinruby's behavior. They weren't blocked over one word. They were blocked for repeated BATTLEGROUND behavior. Additionally, if an editor engages in misconduct following a block, that's still misconduct. ~ Pbritti (talk) 03:29, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

Friend, if you are watching this thread so closely that you are responding to new comments within five minutes, may I suggest it's not (just) Elinruby that's guilty of WP:BATTLEGROUND behavior? Loki (talk) 03:42, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

There's a button you can click when you open a discussion that allows you to 'subscribe' to the discussion. This allows a notification to appear when someone replies even if they don't ping you. It spares one from having to add cluttered noticeboards to a watchlist and enables rapid response. Please review what constitutes BATTLEGROUND behavior, as prompt response is not one such action. ~ Pbritti (talk) 03:47, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

I subscribe to discussions regularly. In fact, I subscribed to this discussion right after I first commented, like I normally do when I comment in a discussion. I assure you it does not explain that quick of a response, and it definitely doesn't explain either your bad faith readings of Elinruby's posts nor coming back to the well with more alleged evidence of wrongdoing that nobody else has taken you up on. Loki (talk) 04:34, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

I was reading the Wikipedia article on the movie I was watching and saw the notification of your reply. As bad faith readings go, a reply being prompt is not one such sign—which is why I welcomed your reply only 13 minutes after mine. Please review WP:AGF. ~ Pbritti (talk) 19:39, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

Pbritti, just ignore Loki's provocation, it's not worth it. El_C 20:12, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

I have declined their most recent unblock request, and left a warning that any further battleground behavior will result in TPA removal. Let's see if that has an effect. I do agree that, especially since you cannot defend yourself on their talk page, they cannot continue to make personal attacks. --Floquenbeam (talk) 21:26, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

Comment I haven't been active too much of late, but browsing ANI this caught my eye as one of my most recent experiences here was a very similar situation with Elinruby – they bludgeoned a thread at ANI in which I had participated almost to death, they misunderstood or misrepresented my position in the discussion, then casted aspersions that were completely detached from reality, and when asked to back down they refused. After I posted evidence to their TP (evidence that they said they were going to get and would confirm their stance, but which actually proved they were wrong) they deleted it and doubled down on their position. I do not believe they need to be given a longer block, and they seem to be active and productive in some areas, but they really need to take a good look at their behaviour. Ostalgia (talk) 16:19, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

WP:BATTLEGROUND User:BilledMammal

This editor is using whatever means necessary to enter a battleground with editors who enter into the slightest dispute with them.

My first intereaction with BilledMammal was back in November, back then, I reverted a single one of their edits. And the user responded by digging through my editing history, in order to find wherever I may have violated 1RR rules and subsequently opened an arbitration notice against me.

Fast forward to present day, I've reverted another one of BilledMammals edits. And how do they react? By once again, digging through my editing history, searching for possible 1RR violations. Threatening to have me blocked unless I restore their edits.

I don't know if this is behavior is allowed on Wikipedia or not but it's certainly immoral. Ecrusized (talk) 11:17, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

For context, the full November AE report. In addition, prior to that report I had asked them to self-revert; they responded by reverting my requests, which prompted ScottishFinnishRadish to say an assurance from Ecrusized that they're going to engage when issues are brought up … is sufficient here

That doesn’t appear to have happened, with them recently reverting a 1RR concern from a different editor without responding to it, and then today a concern from me about the removal of a disputed tag.

Finally, this feels a bit like forum shopping; this concern has been repeatedly rejected at AE, most recently a week ago. BilledMammal (talk) 11:28, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

"an assurance from Ecrusized that they're going to engage when issues are brought up … is sufficient here"

"That doesn’t appear to have happened, with them recently reverting"

You are so manipulative, I don't even know where to begin. I was talking to you on the article talk page about the issue, which you did not respond to. However, you did find time to leave me a strong worded warning on my talk page, simply for just reverting you once. This was followed by digging through my edits from past weeks in bad faith, presenting incorrect 1RR violations. Ecrusized (talk) 11:35, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

• "This editor is using whatever means necessary to enter a battleground with editors who enter into the slightest dispute with them." Pot, meet kettle. That is pretty much how I would describe construing a note as a block threat and escalating it immediately to ANI. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 11:43, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
• Finally, this feels a bit like forum shopping; this concern has been repeatedly rejected at AE, most recently a week ago (permanent link): I must admit my confusion about this link from BilledMammal (and therefore also about the forumshopping charge leveled against Ecrusized's behavior). The link isn't to a concern about BilledMammal brought to Arbitration Enforcement; it links to an Arbitration Enforcement request that BilledMammal submitted about a different user, Dylanvt.
  Without commenting one way or another on Ecrusized's behavior and whether boomeranging applies, the concern about some of BilledMammal's edits verging on (or becoming) battlegrounding seems unfortunately plausible. BilledMammal has been previously sanctioned for abuse of process also in this topic area that the admin called using boards for taking out opponents from an area, or for making them give up editing. In April and May, BilledMammal was advised about unproductively bludgeoning discussions ([143] [144]) and received an Arbitration Enforcement block for edit-warring in the Israel–Palestine topic area. At a minimum, I would hope that the present thread reminds BilledMammal to exercise restraint when contributing in contentious topic areas. Hydrangeans (she/her | talk | edits) 12:06, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

I have indefinitely topic banned Ecrusized from the Arab/Israel conflict, broadly construed. Opening an ANI report against another editor because they brought up your 1RR violation while at the same time having an open report at AE against another editor claiming 1RR violations is bad enough, but combined with the 1RR violations, lack of understanding of 1RR, and personal commentary towards other editors, we're firmly in topic ban territory. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 12:33, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

So we're topic banning editors for bringing concerns to ANI, now? Regardless of your other issues with Ecrusized, the timeline he brings up in his report is absolutely valid. Only deciding to make an issue of week old 1RR violations right after having a conflict with someone might be innocuous on its own, but as Hydrangeans points out, this is clearly part of a pattern. The AE that BM currently has open against a different editor is regarding a single two week old edit. Refusing to even acknowledge this before indef topic banning an editor for coming to ANI is ludicrous. Parabolist (talk) 22:38, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

For bringing concerns to ANI combined with expressing WP:CIR and WP:NPOV concerns, seemingly. I don't wholly follow what brought on the indefinite topic ban. Hydrangeans (she/her | talk | edits) 22:57, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

I'm guessing it was (1) opening an ANI report against another editor because they brought up your 1RR violation, (2) while at the same time having an open report at AE against another editor claiming 1RR violations, combined with (3) 1RR violations, (4) lack of understanding of 1RR, and (5) personal commentary towards other editors. Levivich (talk) 00:13, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, that's about it. I probably should have explained that earlier. I left this open so community discussion could continue. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 00:43, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

• I find posting on an editor's user talk about edits that occurred a week beforehand, with an edit warring notice, to be problematic and it is not unsupportive of the OP's claim that BM has gone trolling through their edit history the moment they've come into some sort of conflict. TarnishedPath^talk 00:26, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

• That indeed seems problematic. But you should use trawling rather than trolling to express such purported WP:HOUNDING. Thanks. El_C 12:35, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

  @El C thanks for the correction. TarnishedPath^talk 12:57, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

  Which would y'all rather have:

  1. Editors complain about 1RR vios right away each and every time they happen
  2. Editors never complain about 1RR vios
  3. Editors let 1RRs slide for a while until they get to be too many, and then bring all the recent ones up at once to show it's not a one-time thing

  I prefer # 3. Levivich (talk) 13:21, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

  That notice left by BM didn't indicate that they had any evidence of edit warring which was recent. In fact the diffs they provided were a week old by the time they left that notice. Would you leave a edit warning notice about events that were a week past? I wouldn't. TarnishedPath^talk 14:09, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

  I would much prefer that editors let one another know when there has been a violation of 1RR that can be remedied instead of escalating to WP:AE, which is what I hoped would happen when I proposed the gentlemen's agreement here. Asking for self-reverts is standard practice. There was no threat of a block, just a request for self-revert. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 15:55, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

  It seems you and others in this discussion are operating under an incomplete understanding of the facts, so let me lay it out:

  • Key background: on 13 May, Ecrusized filed Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement#Galamore, reporting 1RR violations by another editor, with diffs going back to 19 April (which requires "trawling" through others' contribs)
  • Here are Ecrusized's edits to Israel-Hamas war
  • On May 14 they made a bunch of edits to that article, crossing 1RR
  • Among those May 14 edits is this edit, which they self-reverted with edit summary "This probably puts me in 1RR" (true), only to reinstate that same edit a few hours later at 16:43. Their first revert was on 15:49 13 May, which is why they waited until 16:53 14 May to reinstate it. Unfortunately, despite the rather obvious gaming involved in waiting 25hrs to make a revert, because of other intervening reverts, that 16:53 14 May edit was still a 1RR violation.
  • The 14 May edits included adding inline tags and a hidden HTML comment telling other editors not to change content, while also removing an inline tag placed by others (while discussion was still ongoing on the talk page, the most recent talk page message was made only 16 minutes prior)
  • Ecrusized made no edits to the article between 14 May and 20 May
  • On 20 May, they once again removed another editor's disputed tag, while discussion was still ongoing, with the most-recent comment was made only 2 minutes prior and Ecrusized made a comment 2 minutes later, and they restored their hidden comment that had been removed by others
  • On 20 May, BM posted a message on Ecrusized's talk page asking them to self-revert the removal of the disputed tag. No block threat, no incivility, just a please self-revert request.
  • Ecrusized's response was to post this message on BM's user talk page, and blank BM's post on their own user talk page, 10 minutes later
  • Then BM posted a second message bringing up the 1RR violations on 14 May. It was a request to self-revert. There was no block threat, no threat to escalate.
  • Ecrusized's response was to call BM a "wiki warrior", and to accuse BM of "threatening to have me blocked", which never happened. Here is that whole discussion, which took place over the course of 18 minutes, 10:50-11:08
  • At 11:17, Ecrusized opened this ANI

  Now: (1) violating 1RR (on 14 May, at least); (2) not understanding 1RR (as seen from their attempts to game it by waiting until 15 May to re-make a revert); while at the same time complaining about someone else's 1RR violation at AE; and being uncivil towards other editors ("wiki warrior", plus other stuff like "virtually inexperienced editors ... with a heavy Israeli bias" ... I'd add: removing others' inline tagging during discussion, while reinstating their own inline tagging that's been removed; and accusing others of "digging through my editing history" when they're doing the same thing to someone else at AE... this is all classic battleground, disruptive editing. This is one of the most obviously-deserved TBANs I've seen this year.

  I don't really see how anyone can look at this history and think that BM's behavior is problematic, that BM did something wrong by bringing up the 14 May 1RRs, or that this TBAN was issued because Ecrusized brought concerns to ANI. But I can see how someone who didn't look at any of the history might think that, though. Writing this bill of particulars out has been a waste of my time, but it was necessary to correct the misinformation posted here by multiple editors who clearly didn't do the reading before participating in the class discussion. So in the future, let's take more time to research the history of disputes before we opine at noticeboards about appropriate remedies. Levivich (talk) 19:27, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

  virtually inexperienced editors and heavy Israeli bias is strong wording that I don't like, but the recent experience of this very board goes to show that expressing WP:CIR and WP:NPOV concerns in much stronger language has passed muster for many editors, hence my surprise. You're right that one doesn't look at this history (that is to say, a different user's behavioral history) and think that BM's behavior is problematic; rather, one draws such a conclusion by looking at BilledMammal's history. Hydrangeans (she/her | talk | edits) 20:38, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

  Thanks for that. I do a lot of my monitoring and editing on my phone, so I don't really have a way to keep a diff dossier of disruptive editing patterns, edits, and interactions. I'm glad that laying out the reasoning in the notice was sufficient to figure out the wider context. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 22:11, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

  Thanks for that @Levivich. I was already in complete agreement that Ecrusized's TBAN was appropriate. What I was calling into question specifically was leaving an edit warring notice for edits a week after they occurred. From your timeline it looks to me that Ecrusized crossed 1RR on the 20th and it would have been more appropriate for any notice to focus on that. TarnishedPath^talk 00:09, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

  @Levivich: I just like to point out what you said here. Not arguing against my topic ban but...

  On May 14 they made a bunch of edits to that article, crossing 1RR.

  I did not cross 1RR on that date. There is only 1 revert, there are 2 self reverts. revert., self revert. tag added by me earlier, self revert. The only revert made in the 24 hour period. Ecrusized (talk) 09:55, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

  Also, I agree that opening an AE notice against another editors past edits while complaining about another user opening edits against me is hypocritical. Additionally, I would like to point out that I'm not writing these to object to my topic ban. I fully agree with @ScottishFinnishRadish:'s decision, however, I would like to point these out because there seems to be some misunderstanding between other editors participating in this notice.

  I initially opened an incident notice against user Galamore, before the AE notice. This incident notice was regarding perceived gaming the system by Galamore to get ECP access. There, it was suggested (or I accidentally perceived) from ScottishFinnishRadish that this topic belonged to AE. Which prompted me to open the AE notice.

  I'm not exactly sure how AE notices work, and I first participated in them when BilledMammal opened one against me in November, which is linked above in this discussion. Having being inexperienced with the process, I copied the material of the November notice against myself for user Galamore.

  Since I've responded all the point notes by Levivich, I would also like to say that despite being fully aware that words like "virtually inexperienced editors" and "with a heavy Israeli bias" are against Wikipedia guidelines, I said those words to other editors. Which is inexcusable. Ecrusized (talk) 10:33, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

  Self-reverting a 1RR violation doesn't mean 1RR wasn't crossed, at least in my view. Levivich (talk) 12:04, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

  Self-reverting a 1RR violation doesn't mean 1RR wasn't crossed, at least in my view.

  That may be your opinion. That is clearly not the policy of Wikipedia. And the contrary is specifically instructed in the guideline page covering 1RR. WP:3RRNO:

  The following reverts are exempt from the edit-warring policy: Reverting your own actions ("self-reverting"). Ecrusized (talk) 14:30, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

  Thank you for you taking the time to put this together. BilledMammal (talk) 12:07, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

  I guess I'd be more concerned about this if it was on a different article where BilledMammal had never edited. Both of the editors had a history of edits on that article. Nemov (talk) 13:13, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

  TarnishedPath, "a week old" is not very old at all. Some of us do have lives, and problematic patterns sometimes take a while to become evident; sometimes the decision to let something slide has to be rethought because the behavior worsens. If this had been about an incident from many months ago, I could see the concern (though evidence, when it fits a pattern, is often relevant for years, even if a newer incident is expected as the cause of the report). But "it happened more than 6 days ago so it has magically become unactionable" is not a WP principle.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  03:40, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

User:GamerHashaam

A user, named GamerHashaam has been conducting a series of disruptive edits on the Third Balochistan conflict. He, with no sources or talk page interaction, changed the results of the conflict to “Baluchi victory”. [1] When I reverted it and told him to take it to the talk page, he threw what seemed to be a tantrum, calling me a “bootlicker” and a “faujeet” (a merge of Fauj, which means army, and “pajeet”, which is a racist term for Indians.). [2].

I have constantly attempted to make him use the talk page for a civilised conversation as seen from my edit summaries, and issued him warnings on his talk page, but it doesn’t seem to make him act any more civil. Even accusing me of being an asset of the Pakistani military, accusing me of spreading “bullshit” and accusing me of being a captain in the Pakistani army. [3]

I tried to keep an open mind, but he simply wants to engage in insults and bad rhetoric. I eventually found out that the result I was reverting to (Pakistani victory) had no basis, so I had reverted it to the “ceasefire” result it always had before, I even apologised to him and said I hoped that this would be a fair compromise. But to no avail, he constantly puts it as a “Baluchi victory” despite no sources, and even has the audacity to tell me to use the talk page, when he has been editing the result without the consultation of the talk page, and only eventually using it to insult me.

What’s even more suspicious, is that an IP created the same exact edit to the result parameter he did, only 9 minutes before. I’m not sure if this was merely an accident, but I’d just thought to mention it anyway.[4]

This isn’t the only page, he edited the casualties on the 2024 Azad Kashmir demonstrations and simply stated “per local sources”, with no citations and links. And even when it was reverted, he simply re-inserted it back. [5]

In summary, I have attempted to rectify the issue, even apologising to him for my mistake.[6]

I urge the administrators to take action against GamerHashaam, he has been disruptively editing and extremely insulting and uncivil. His disruptive editing is still on the Third Balochistan conflict page, as I do not want to continue an edit war. VirtualVagabond (talk) 22:54, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

I apologize to you of any ill behavior but I thought that you were promoting the narrative by the state as a military handle of ISPR but I recognize that claim is bogus without evidence so I apologize for that. I changed it to a Baluch Victory with some more edits such as changing baluchis to baluchs as baluchis is used by only punjabi people in pakistan as they tend to use a "i" with "s" to pronounce plural of ethnic groups or peoples.

I changed it to a baluch victory as I clearly defined that the demands of the Baluch had been accepted by the government as even in the article original state it mentions that yahya sued for negotiations and reverted the one unit scheme aswell gave a general amnesty not to mention releasing all captured insurgents. GamerHashaam (talk) 23:04, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

Clearly defined without a source. 48JCL (talk) 23:07, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/297949740_The_resurgence_of_baluch_ethnicity_and_nationalism_in_Baluchistan?enrichId=rgreq-7b34a998ca96ef754c3352b1de0972d1-XXX&enrichSource=Y292ZXJQYWdlOzI5Nzk0OTc0MDtBUzo1MzY5NTQ1Nzc5NzMyNTRAMTUwNTAzMTM1NTgzMg%3D%3D&el=1_x_3&_esc=publicationCoverPdf

This is one source I citate for the research, Its from Multan Zakariya University. GamerHashaam (talk) 23:10, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

WP:RESEARCHGATE ResearchGate is not reliable according to Wikipedia. 48JCL (talk) 23:13, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

He (VirtualVagabond) continued to make the claim that the rebels wanted Independence or sucession from Pakistan and provided no sources or citations for such claims and as per the demands, we have of the rebels , nearly all were fullfilled. thus I saw it to edit it into a baluch victory from a ceasefire or pakistani victory. GamerHashaam (talk) 23:07, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

If you read my notice, you see that I mentioned that, and you see me mentioning apologising to you, and rectifying my mistake. The links are there to take you to them if you need proof. VirtualVagabond (talk) 23:12, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

I mean alright but It still constitues a Baluch Victory considering that the Baluchistan province was restored while one unit scheme was abolished and there demand of provincial autonomy was accepted. All Rebel Leaders contested and won election in 1970. Other thing to mention is that they were not arrested or proseucted for any crimes. GamerHashaam (talk) 23:15, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

Whether the amnesty was due to pressure by fighters on the federal government, or a strategic move by the government to curtail the insurgency isn’t relevant. What’s relevant is that your source for “Balochi victory” (which you didn’t even cite in the article) isn’t reliable. VirtualVagabond (talk) 23:17, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

The military dictator General Yahya Khan sued for a cease-fire with the Pararis. In spite of their recognition of a cease-fire, the Pararis were persuaded a revitalization of hostilities with Islamabad was only a matter of time. The Pararis upheld their guerrilla forces unharmed and enlarged their reach, powers and numbers after the 1969 cease-fire. In certain areas, they were capable to run a virtual parallel government. General Yahya Khan broke up of One Unit on July 1, 1970 and Baluchistan for the first time became a full-fledged province. But no attempt was done to take the internal administration of the province in line with those of other provinces. The general elections were held under the Legal Frame Work Order in December 1970 for the first time in the history of Pakistan and the result of the 1970 elections unleashed a whole set of new and contradictory forces into the political agenda.

here's the text

We need to verify it in a journal

ResearchGate is a social network that hosts a repository of user-generated publications, including preprints. ResearchGate does not perform fact checking or peer reviewing, and is considered a self-published source. Verify whether a paper on ResearchGate is also published in a peer-reviewed academic journal; in these cases, cite the more reliable journal and provide an open access link to the paper (which may be hosted on ResearchGate). GamerHashaam (talk) 23:20, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

I agree it was a ceasefire, which I had inserted. On the other hand, nothing says about a full-fledged Balochi victory.

It doesn’t matter about your claims about ResearchGate doing “fact checking” or whatever. Wikipedia policy deems it as unreliable, through and through. It even states that it does not do fact checking on WP:RESEARCHGATE, and states it as a “self-published source.” VirtualVagabond (talk) 23:26, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

yes a self published source although we can find a factual journal on a other site for it.

Second I didn't say it was a full-fledged baloch victory rather a simple baloch victory due to there demands being accepted for which we can find other sources in the article other then me as listed below:

Third Balochistan conflict#Insurgency

Sher Muhammad Bijrani Marri led like-minded militants into guerrilla warfare from 1963 to 1969 by creating their own insurgent bases. Their goal was to force Pakistan to share revenue generated from the Sui gas fields with the tribal leaders and lifting of One Unit Scheme. The insurgents bombed railway tracks and ambushed convoys and raided on military camps.

Third Balochistan conflict#Military response

This insurgency ended in 1969, with the Baloch separatists agreeing to a ceasefire granting general amnesty to the separatists as well as freeing the separatists. In 1970 Pakistani President Yahya Khan abolished the "One Unit" policy, which led to the recognition of Balochistan as the fourth province of West Pakistan (present-day Pakistan), including all the Balochistani princely states, the High Commissioners Province, and Gwadar, an 800 km² coastal area purchased from Oman by the Pakistani government.

Also I humbly require you to use proper pronoun for the balochs not balochi as balochi is the language not the people. GamerHashaam (talk) 23:35, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

@GamerHashaam: Please stop WP:SHOUTING. – 2804:F14:80B7:8201:C4DC:E500:5610:A60F (talk) 23:40, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

I was not shouting rather just highlighting the important text in the passages GamerHashaam (talk) 23:42, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

I was talking about your response, not the quotes, we can read it just fine without the bold. – 2804:F14:80B7:8201:C4DC:E500:5610:A60F (talk) 23:48, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

Alright GamerHashaam (talk) 23:49, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

What even is a “simple victory”? Your claims don’t make any sense. Wikipedia policy doesn’t accept that.

What is this other factual source? You didn’t send a link or citation, nor any other source, but regurgitated what the unreliable source said.

Please, let’s take this to the talk page of the conflict. Let the administrators here do their job easier. VirtualVagabond (talk) 23:44, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

By Simple Victory I meant not a Phyric Victory with too many loses or a Decisive Crushing Victory rather a Moderate Victory. It takes time to find factual information on a source thus I request some time aprox 24 hours to investigate and find one. GamerHashaam (talk) 23:47, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

Not how Wikipedia policy on a military victory works. Again, please take this to the talk page. VirtualVagabond (talk) 23:50, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

Alright take it to the talk page , add some sources and context please I request for it to be a ceasefire or pakistani victory. I have to go now but I will Inshallah Review it in 12 hours and provide a reply. Allah Hafiz GamerHashaam (talk) 23:52, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

Also Its baloch not balochi , Please fix the pronoun GamerHashaam (talk) 23:21, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

Just to ask, does anybody know when an admin will come to make a decision? It seems that the reports before and after this one have mostly been solved or at least have been looked over. But not for this, I understand it might take some time but I’ve heard that ANIs get archived if there’s no activity for three days. Hence my curiosity. VirtualVagabond (talk) 02:43, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

That usually means there has not been sufficient evidence presented that admins are willing to take action. Or that someone who would be willing to take action just hasn't been online to see it yet. If the thread gets archived, oh well. If the problem repeats and requires immediate action to resolve, a new thread can be opened with a reference back to this one in the archives. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 17:40, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

Need advice for courtesy on problematic user

An editor who has recently been unblocked for ARBPIA after a month and who has been flagged for WP:CIR has resumed making the same WP:CIR violations and inserting poorly-written content into certain articles, the most terrible of which is this [145] on Timeline of Isfahan. I have just bluntly warned the user, but given that they have had a record on ANI, can a third case be filed directly against them? Withholding full name of offender until I get clarification on this. Borgenland (talk) 16:45, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

I don't see why not if their edits outwardly demonstrate lack of competence. The Kip ^(contribs) 19:59, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

In that case, can I rename this section or do I have to file a separate section for this? Borgenland (talk) 06:18, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

Might as well just rename the section, since this section doesn't serve a purpose otherwise, and everyone can tell by the diff who the user is that you have in mind anyway, so this pseudo-secrecy is pointless. However, the diff provided above shows this user, Baratiiman, correcting and otherwise improving their own earlier claim that 60 Baha'i women were "persecuted" (somewhere unspecified), with a revision that agrees with the cited source that it was 10 women, and in Iran. (While it would have been nice if Baratiiman had gotten the information correct in the first edit instead of the second, no one is perfect. Baratiiman should also have replaced the PoV-laden "persecuted" with the "prosecuted" used by the original source, or rather as translated from the orignal source which is not in English; "prosecuted" and "persecuted" are radically different things despite the spelling similarity. And Baratiiman had no reason to write "Iranian Islamic state government" when "Iranian government" or even just "Iran" will do. But ANI is not a venue for punishing people for insufficiently beautiful prose.)  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  05:02, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

PS: Borgenland, on multiple pages I see you inserting broken link code in the form [[https://en.wikipedia.org/...]] That's the format for internal wikilinks like [[Mongolia]]. The format for full-URL links is [https://en.wikipedia.org/...] with single square-bracketing. So, I'm not sure you're in a position to make "competence"-related criticisms. If anything is to be actionable here, you need to demonstrate an actual pattern of policy failures on the part of Baratiiman, not vague claims of "incompetence".  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  05:09, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

PPS: this is also a bit concerning, being aggressive and menacing: If I catch you making such WP:CIR edits again I'm afraid I will have to file an ANI against you for a third time. It's not Borgenland's or anyone else's job to try to "catch" people doing things they don't like and make threats to gin up WP:DRAMAboard trouble as a punitive measure to try to get what they want.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  05:14, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

I appreciate pointing out that I do get confused sometimes in coding. But it does not absolve them from the fact that the user I am referring to has had a edit history of incoherent editing, misinterpreting and exaggerating statements and has not once made any response or commitment to address this behavior, even when they were still being addressed in a civil manner. This was also raised by other editors in a previous archived report involving them last month. And now that you are asking for proof, I might as well build up again the case using the archive and their most recent cases within the day. Borgenland (talk) 05:44, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

Since their unblocking these have been some of their most problematic edits:

• [146] a restoration of incomprehensible and WP:NOTNEWS content they inserted in Timeline of Isfahan
• [147] a confusing holiday count in Economy of Iran
• [148] inserting references to unidentified presidents in 2024 Varzaqan helicopter crash.

Borgenland (talk) 06:19, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

This was the recent ANI that was filed against them in April, during which issues I had raised were also seconded by other editors. Although in the end they were blocked for edit warring. [149]. Borgenland (talk) 06:35, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

There is no selection criteria for https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Stand-alone_lists#Selection_criteria Baratiiman (talk) 16:41, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

There may be none, but the way in which such info was written left doubts over the veracity of such events. Furthermore for example, is it really due to an event for 2023 to include something that would happen in six years, as you stated in desertification? Borgenland (talk) 16:45, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

This is an article-talk-page or user-talk-page discussion, not an AN/I matter.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  05:25, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

To catch up a bit: Yes, there historically have been some issues with this editor, Borgenland's original diff here did not in any way add to that problematic history, but shows the editor in question improving their own edit, with a total result that looks reasonable (if not perfect). So, this AN/I thread doesn't seem to have a point; there's not a new "incident" of an actionable nature here. To go over the new diffs in the order presented above: 1) Nothing "incomprehensible" about any of it. A few entries are in telegraphic writing ("headlinese") or not-quite-right English and should be improved. A few entries also seem to make use of non-Latin script, and should be improved with Latin-alphabet transliterations of the names in question. And some entries might be too trivial/indiscriminate to warrant inclusion (and in the "desertification" instance, there's a question of relevance and perhaps WP:NOT#CRYSTAL). These are all matters of just improving the material, the third sort of concern perhaps after some article or user talk-page discussion. Whether all the sources cited are reliable enough could be a question (that I can't answer; I'm unfamilar with them and don't know the language). 2) I don't know what "a confusing holiday count" is supposed to mean. What is a "holiday count"? The material added (with sources) is in not-quite-right English again, but is easy enough to parse after looking at the sources, and should read something like the following (for better linguistic sense, to better match the sources, and for more clarity to non-Iranians): "In 2024, Iran amended Article 87 of the Civil Service Management Law to reduce the workweek of government employees to 40 hours per week (after previously reducing it from 44 to 42.5 hours). This was done by extending, for that set of workers, the Iranian weekend to include Saturday as well as the traditional Thursday and Friday." We like our non-native-English-speaker contributors to try a little harder to get the English grammar correct, but we're unlikely to block them from editing for a few simple syntax errors or for not being maximally helpful to readers who are not steeped in their culture. 3) So just fix it. The source is clear and short: "The three [living] former presidents of Iran, Mohammad Khatami, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and Hassan Rouhani". Looking at our article, I see someone has already patched up that sentence, so there is no issue to resolve. In short, it seems to me that Borgenland would like there to a principle by which WP banned editors who mean well and add some good material but who also sometimes create typographic-cleanup and clarity-improvement work for other editors to do after them. I'm unaware of any such block rationale, and we would not do well to create one. It's far more practical, on multiple levels, to coach and coax an inexperienced editor into becoming a better encyclopedic writer than to try to banish them for not already being one.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  05:25, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

For the record, I was the one who patched up number 3 but because I found an English-language source that can verify whatever claims they made. The fact is, they had been coached and coaxed several times to improve their writing to the extent that you had seen, to little avail. How far should their behavior be tolerated without compromising the encyclopedic quality of articles in this project and how long should it be for them to learn how to be responsible in providing factual and comprehensible information?. Borgenland (talk) 20:52, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

User:Second Skin violating topic ban and other issues

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

• Second Skin (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive912#Genre warrior disrupting the Babymetal article - once again
• Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1141#Being hounded by an administrator

In two previous ANIs Second Skin was first advised to tone it down then topic banned from music genre writ large. Specifically "Second Skin is indefinitely topic bannned from all pages and discussions relating to music genres. @Doug Weller: talk 18:50, 31 October 2023 (UTC)". This user appears to be violating this topic ban wholesale. [150][151][152][153][154][155][156][157][158]

User also has a history of flagrantly ignoring communications and warnings from other users and admins and directives from admins and using edit summaries to have discussions despite being told by Drmies to cease doing so, and ignored suggestions from other admins such as NinjaRobotPirate (these include arguably legitimate blanking of own talk page but reflect ignorance of the messages): [159][160][161]"fuck off" to Drmies"lol go away"[162][163][164][165]"fuck off"[166]"fuck off""fuck off""fuck off"[167][168][169]

Currently engaged in a silly dispute over whether Aztec, New Mexico, apparently legally classified as a city, should be called a town. Refuses to see that inserting user's own opinion on this is OR, cites other Wikipedia articles as sources for it being called a town. [170](alters citation to US census describing it as a city)"empty threats"[171]

Due to long history of problems, disrespect for admins and other users and Wikipedia processes, I am asking for an indefinite block at this time. —DIYeditor (talk) 01:28, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

My edits to the first few things that are linked were to remove him supposedly being a fan of a type of music, how does this fit any "topic ban" of any kind? If I am not mistaken that was a past problem of genres being sourced directly on music articles. What I edited above were not music articles. If something (indirectly) runs into the broad category of a music genre I am in violation somehow? I only removed stuff about music that supposedly motivated a school shooter, which is completely different.

Also my "silly edit war" about a small town in New Mexico was 2 reverts and I stopped doing it and took it to the talk page??? What?

Never told Drmies to fuck off.... That thread was started by an IP address and I was already brought into scolding about that anyway

Everything else you linked was 8 years ago or. Seriously. 8 or 9 years ago. Do you have any better ammo? Are you seriously this mad because of a small dispute on a article about a town that i stopped involving myself in immediately after? So you bring up ancient stuff (and in some cases inproperly address me for some of these things of stuff I didnt actually do). Ever since I took a break and came back I have been very careful with the way I engage and try to improve pages. If I accidentally run into the theme of music indirectly concerning an article then I'm not sure how that's invadable. Music is very commonly connected to a lot of things. I have never edit warred with anyone about music genres for a very long time Second Skin (talk) 02:07, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

@Second Skin: Witch house (genre) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views): 7 edits this year. It's literally an article about a music genre. This could get into WP:COMPETENCE if you don't see how an article about a music genre violates a topic ban on all pages and discussions related to music genres. The history is not all years ago some of it is recent, and it's necessary to show the pattern. You don't give a damn what people say to you. —DIYeditor (talk) 02:25, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

So I cant revert peoples unsourced stuff off the page? That other people were reverting as well? It's not even edit warring of any kind it's just typical IP-address removal stuff, what if I used twinkle and one of the reverts I made accidentally edited a page for a music genre? Aside from all this you very clearly have a really bad vendetta against me considering you took the time to actually haul together stuff I said from about a deacde ago, which was already addressed with me forever ago with admins quite a couple times. I dont even remember much of that stuff because it was so long ago. And on top of that you're also lying about me telling a specific person to "fuck off" when you can very clearly see that the thread was made by an IP address (...so nice try). And youre also lying saying Im still engaged in some debate over calling a town a city when I already disengaged from that, and I even commented on the talk page about that matter since then, thus proving I wasnt edit warring and already directly took it to direct correspondences. You're also really severely twisting narratives here and exaggerating matters or even lying about stuff I didn't actually say. Or bringing up stuff from a deacde ago that was already addressed with me here before.... with other people... a decade ago.... I have been very careful with my edits and have been improving articles such as this one and others since my return. I left the page that you're mad about alone. This is ridiculous. I have my regrets for saying "fuck off" when I was a freshman high school student, I know it wasn't the best thing to say if that makes you feel any better. Second Skin (talk) 02:29, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

If you are unable to understand that Second Skin is indefinitely topic bannned from all pages and discussions relating to music genres requires you not to make any edits to articles about music genres, it is probably a WP:COMPETENCE issue. Not to mention the other edits related to music genres I showed above. As to "fuck off", how are we to know whom you were addressing with "fuck off" as the last person to comment in what you removed appears to have been Drmies - maybe part of why you were told to stop having discussions in edit summaries, which you did not stop. —DIYeditor (talk) 02:35, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

So I cant revert peoples unsourced stuff off the page? - Short answer is No. Here is the diff where it explicity states: If you're in any doubt as to whether an edit you plan would violate this ban, please ask me or another admin before making it. What made you think that Witch house (genre) and Horrorcore were not music genres? Why didn't you ask an admin as advised? Isaidnoway (talk) 07:34, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

"So I cant revert peoples unsourced stuff off the page? That other people were reverting as well?" No, you cannot. If you have a logged, community-endorsed TBAN that was not given a set expiration and has not been appealed, you are proscribed from making any edits to articles which fall within the scope of that ban, as is clearly the case here. Honestly, I'm finding myself in alignment with DIY's analysis of your responses: if you're telling us that that after at least 11 years on this project, you do not understand such basic truisms about community sanctions that have been applied to you, you are either feigning ignorance or there very likely is a basic competency/literacy with baseline community guidelines concern here.

Nor is that the only issue with your conduct that DIY has diffed here. First off, you are not allowed to tell anyone to "fuck off" here, admin or IP. Nor does your argument that DIY is fixating on old behaviours from a much younger and less put-together person track, because some of the instances are from within the last six months. I'll be blunt with you: I'm not sure you can avoid a block at this point--your violation of the ban has been so blatant, and your inability to address the issue so complete. The community understandably takes a dim view of having tried to apply a tailored approach to keeping a user on the project and away from their problem areas, only to have those restrictions utterly disregarded. But if you want to minimize the duration or scope of any further sanctions, you will at a minimum need to stop trying to obviate (and arguably obfuscating) concerns regarding your ban evasion. Your effort to cast the concerns raised by the OP of this thread as invalid, exaggerated, or representative of some sort of obsession by DIY do not hold up to scrutiny of even just the diffs already linked above. SnowRise ^{let's rap} 07:38, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

IMO, while the "fuck off" etc stuff is definitely not historic, I don't think it should count for that much since unless I missed something, the editor finally seems to have cut down on that or at least the diffs on that issue look like they predate the ANI which resulted in the topic ban. I mean it's not a good look that it took them so long to to learn. In particular with their apparent inability to understand their topic ban, an argument could be made 'well if it took them that long to work out not to do that, how long is it going to take them to work out how to obey their topic ban'. The fact that they seemed to be downplaying their very recent civility problems obviously doesn't help either. Still I'd be reluctant to support sanction due to behaviour that the editor may have finally stopped. Note that editor's engagement with others could still be below the standard we'd expect even without them telling others to "fuck off". This isn't something I've looked at. Nil Einne (talk) 12:25, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

That's a useful observation, Nil Einne, and I agree with both the main thrust of your point and the caveats. That said, the core issue of the TBAN violations themselves remains, and I do have lingering concerns about the discussion style/respect for WP:CIV, even if we decide to AGF that the worst PAs will not repeat. SnowRise ^{let's rap} 07:02, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

Courtesy pinging everyone involved in the ANI that resulted in a TBAN other than those already pinged: TheDragonFire300 Viriditas GhostOfDanGurney Acroterion (omitting Tazmin because I believe they don't wish notices about admin-related things) Black Kite Objective3000 Eyesnore Hammersoft Lourdes Cullen328 Ravenswing WaltCip Deepfriedokra Bishonen Siroxo ARoseWolf GiantSnowman Uncle G Nil Einne Beyond My Ken Ad Orientem Snow Rise Equilibrial —DIYeditor (talk) 07:09, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

Second Skin, it is pretty simple: First, you were topic banned from music genres. Then, you made several edits pertaining to music genres. Ergo, you overtly violated your topic ban. Trying to wriggle your way out is not going to work. Recommendation: Admit your violation and promise to never repeat it. Keep your promise. Frankly, about 95% of the editing about "music genres" is unproductive bullshit of zero value to readers. Why not edit the encyclopedia productively instead? Cullen328 (talk) 07:42, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

Given that I've been pinged to this discussion, I do concour that the above doesn't give me confidence that Second Skin truly understands his topic ban and that it alone is sufficient to prevent disruption. Although I'd wait for any further specific sanction discussions before weighing in on those. Regards, User:TheDragonFire300. (Contact me | Contributions). 12:50, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

As Cullen already said, [User:Second Skin]], it's simple. Drmies (talk) 13:02, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

I agree. Doug Weller talk 13:17, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

Concur. @Second Skin Cullen has given you an off ramp. I suggest you take it. Acknowledge your mistakes, and please give us unequivocal assurances that you will respect the topic ban and be civil in your interactions with other editors going forward. I will simply add that this is likely to be the last stop on this particular train before it goes to a block. You obviously have the capacity and desire to be a productive member of the community. Let's not drag this out. -Ad Orientem (talk) 14:56, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

Concur with others above. This is a clear cut violation of the topic ban and is not tolerable. That's a lot of voices saying it's a topic ban violation. I'm going to place a final warning on Second Skin's talk page, and hopefully make it unequivocal. Indeed, this is the last stop. --Hammersoft (talk) 15:45, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

I concur with all stated here. --ARoseWolf 16:41, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

As do I. Ravenswing 18:57, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

Proposal: Temporary Indef

Proposal: Second Skin is to be indefinitely blocked until such time as they make an unblock request which satisfies the reviewing admin as to the fact that Second Skin acknowledges and understands the previous breaches of their topic ban and commits to avoiding the topic area they are meant to be proscribed from. SnowRise ^{let's rap} 21:27, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

• Support/Nom: It's impossible to know whether or not the lack of response here, since the community made it's perspective on these violations of the TBAN known, is a case of ANI flu or not. On the other hand, I don't think it matters. All we have from this user so far is a lot of IDHT on the violations, and then complete radio silence as soon as it became clear that the unanimous community response was that the violations were quite obvious and flagrant--after which the community gave Second Skin an entirely easy and convenient out, that merely requires them to make a minimalistic statement of acknowledgment and acceptance of what their TBAN requires of them, going forward.
  Until we have that kind of basic commitment that Second Skin understands and will abide by their existing sanctions this time around, I don't think we can be confident that this user will not be further disruptive in the area in question. Of course, ideally, Second Skin will respond before this resolution passes and obviate the need for it to be applied. SnowRise ^{let's rap} 21:27, 26 May 2024 (UTC)
• Support You guys are more patient than I am. This user seems to me to be at the far end of not liking rules and not liking to be told what to do. —DIYeditor (talk) 02:17, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

• Support I believe they need some kind of block.CycoMa1 (talk) 02:36, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

• Support After blatantly violating the topic ban and being combative when discussing the ban, this is absolutely appropriate. Editing is inappropriate until a reviewing admin has a good faith belief that their conduct will improve. CoffeeCrumbs (talk) 06:22, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

• Support per pretty blatant violation of their topic ban and seeming refusal to accept how they did so. The Kip ^(contribs) 06:32, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

• Support: Didn't we see this back in October? Honestly, I just don't get the people for whom the reaction to a TBAN or a block of any length is anything other than (a) sit down, stop squawking, and follow the rules; or (b) just walk away from Wikipedia for good, if doing (a) is intolerable. I have never had a block, ban or anything of the sort, but if I had, I'd wrap my head around the premise that following the rules is not optional. Ravenswing 06:35, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
• Support - Usually when someone flagrantly disregards a topic ban and shows no sign they can/will abide by it and/or starts causing similar issues in other topic areas, the remedy is an indef. —Jéské Couriano v^_^v ^{threads critiques} 17:08, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article hijackings (with pages that actually should exist) by 2607:FEA8:2462:6900:0:0:0:0/64

This IP has been 'creating' a fair amount of human name pages by inserting a new page inside of existing pages by similar names. The pages are all good, to be clear – the only issue is that they are going in the completely wrong place. They have been asked to use drafts many times, but given that their address is so variable I really have absolutely no idea that they've even seen those messages. I don't want to see them gone, their work is useful, but it is currently creating extra work for others. Perhaps a block with a pointer to a detailed explanation of what they should be doing instead, and an unblock after they simply confirm they understand, would be able to get their attention. They've been temporarily blocked before for this exact thing but the block message was less than useful so they just kept doing what they've been doing after it expired. Tollens (talk) 06:33, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

Well, if they keep bouncing around to different IPs, it seems they're also unlikely to notice that one has been blocked. I wonder if they are at least within a blockable range that wouldn't clobber a bunch of other, unrelated, users.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  05:23, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

Yes, they seem to be entirely within the /64 range I've linked, and it doesn't look like anybody else is. Tollens (talk) 06:11, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

In that case I would support your idea as perhaps the only way to get their attention clearly and long enough to get the point across, and see if they absorb it and do better after actually responding to the block with an indication that they understand and will edit in a more practical manner. We should be clear that we're not angry with them or don't value the content they're adding, just that it needs to be done properly.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  05:36, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

The /64 earned a block a couple weeks ago. I've made it a week this time and left a specific note on their talk page. Izno (talk) 21:24, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

IP editor, if you are reading this, you can create an article by adding Draft: in front of the title you want (like Draft:Article name) and add {{subst:submit}} at the very top when you're ready to publish it. Tollens (talk) 21:53, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

Additionally, you can likely be unblocked at any time assuming you've seen all this and understand - just add {{unblock|reason=Put a brief statement that you understand what you should do here ~~~~}} on your talk page, which is at this link. If you don't understand, you can ask on that page as well (include the text {{ping|Tollens}} in your message to alert me of it). Tollens (talk) 22:02, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

Elon Musk troll

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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• Faze flint (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Faze flint has made many edits to articles relating to Elon Musk which have been reverted. For example, [172] which removes info in the lead with support in the body. Why? If you include it, you're a "brainwashed anti-Elon person." Likewise, [173] does the same, but with the misleading edit summary "changed the grammar." This user has been editing since January 2024; he is a troll and a vandal, and possibly a COI. His recently created userpage is trollish as well: "I do not harass Wikipedia users. I love fact-checking false information spread here by delusional people." I request that this user be blocked. Air on White (talk) 19:37, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

Also an unsourced edit to one of Twitter's competitors noting that their user base has "plummeted". I indef blocked per WP:NOTHERE. – Muboshgu (talk) 19:41, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:Wiki wikied retracting other editors comments

Wiki wikied (talk · contribs) is repeatedly reverting one specific comment made by Island92 (talk · contribs) at Talk:2024 Formula One World Championship:

1. Special:Diff/1225346948
2. Special:Diff/1225348091
3. Special:Diff/1225636335
4. Special:Diff/1225644502
5. Special:Diff/1225645092
6. Special:Diff/1225645797

In Special:Diff/1225348091 they wrote "Deleted due to assumed pronoun usage" as a rational.

I explained in great length that this was inappropriate when I reverted instance number 3, and I also explained what i thought would be the appropriate steps (Special:Diff/1225642015). I also left a similar explanation at their talk page along with {{uw-tpv1}} (Special:Diff/1225644072). However, Wiki wikied keeps deleting these comments (I know this is their right) and seemingly ignoring them. I most recently escalted to {{uw-tpv3}} (Special:Diff/1225645397). Howrever, edit number 6 above came about 6 minutes after I posted that notice (and Wiki wikied is aware of that notice, because hethey deleted it). Please can an editor of higher standing assist in this where I have failed. Thanks. SSSB (talk) 20:54, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

If someone keeps reverting things because they don't like having their pronouns assumed, perhaps the solution is to stop assuming their pronouns? (Underlining added, not in original post.) Shirt58 (talk) 🦘 01:00, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

I don't disagree but the user needs to realise that "he" can be used to describe someone whose gender is unspecified ([174]) and people make mistakes - like above where auto-correct appears to have corrected a typoed "they" into "he". They can't just delete every comment where the incorrect pronoun is used. SSSB (talk) 03:02, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

That's a ridiculous response. Using "their" is clearly a neutral pronoun and is not an "assumption", aside from Wiki wikied refusing to clarify or engage in any way to constructively resolve the disagreement (which could have been rather straightforward). "If someone keeps reverting things because they don't like having their pronouns assumed", then that's petty, childish, and most importantly disruptive. We don't accept disruption because someone "doesn't like" the situation. That's not how we resolve issues and disagreements and "not liking" a simple error by Island92 (who I believe does not speak English as a first language) does not excuse or justify this disruptive behaviour. In fact, this has been the only thing they have engaged with on-wiki since April – a pretty strong indication that they're WP:NOTHERE to do anything constructive at all. 5225_C (talk • contributions) 03:08, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

Fairly sure Shirt58 is referring to the original comment which did use "he" throughout. I actually agree with Shirt58 regardless of he and she sometimes being used when gender is unspecified, it's increasing controversial and so should be avoided and especially avoided if someone objects. However, I don't think removing the comment was an acceptable solution and getting into an edit war over it even less. That said, if Island92 was one of those involved in the revert war, the immediate solution was for them to simply modify their comments. Editors could still discuss with Wiki wikied somewhere about better ways to handle such objections, but it benefits no one to insist in the right to call someone "he" when they've clearly objected no matter how poor their objection may be. But it doesn't look like Island92 was involved which complicates things since I'm unconvinced another editor should be editing Island92's comments. Nil Einne (talk) 03:21, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

No, SSSB's original post here used "they" and "their" throughout (diff). Island92 has not been involved since posting the original comment, which was about a seperate disagreement that has since been resolved. The message in question was posted on 21 April, and Wiki wikied let it stand without any engagement until 23 May. Nobody is trying to establish a right to call Wiki wikied by "he", the goal is here is to escalate the disagreement to prevent an editor from continuing to be deliberately disruptive. 5225_C (talk • contributions) 03:28, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

Yes but that has nothing to do with what I said which is that Shirt58 is saying the comment being warred over was a problem, not that SSSB's comment is a problem. There is nothing in Shirts58's comment to suggest they were objecting to pronoun usage here. Nil Einne (talk) 05:44, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

You mean adding underlining to SSSB's post isn't such a suggestion? 5225_C (talk • contributions) 05:50, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

I thought Shirt58 was suggesting that the solution was for Island92 to use they rather than he. However it seems their underlining was probably an emphasis that SSSB should have stuck with they rather than using he once, now acknowledged and due to a typo. Regardless, my main point remains. It seems clear Shirt58 wasn't objecting to the use of their etc. They were supporting it and emphasising all editors need to stick with it and not use he even once. Nil Einne (talk) 05:55, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

If that's the case then I have no problem with Shirt58's comment, I agree it's always best practice to use a neutral pronoun until certain of what is appropriate. 06:06, 26 May 2024 (UTC)— Preceding unsigned comment added by 5225C (talk • contribs) ^<diff>

I used "he" once (where I struck it out). Everother instance used they or their some of which were later underlined by Shirt58. This was not an assumption, it was a typo being auto-corrected. My assumption right now would be to use "she" (balance of propabilites, only a small minority use pronouns of "they/them"). I agree with everything else you're saying - I tried to explain to Wiki wikied that if they objected to the pronouns someone used to describe them to take it up with the offending editor (and by all means consider it a personal attack if they refuse to acknowlegde your obejction to pronoun usage). But however controversial it may be, "he" is and can be used where gender is unspecified, and people do still make mistakes where gender is specified. People make typos, and in 6 months I may forget Wiki wikied's pronouns and default to "he" in a case of unspecified gender (linguistically acceptable even if contorversial). But to flat-out remove the comment is not appropriate or helpful and if we can't edit comments to correct grammar we shouldn't correct them for pronouns either? SSSB (talk) 03:50, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

If you can't remember preferred pronouns I strongly suggest you stop using he by default. If you refer to Wiki wikied ever again in a situation where it is not a typo, I'd support an indefinite block of you. And if you made a typo which resulted in incorrect pronoun usage, then even more reason for Shirt58 to object. The correct response is to apologise for your offensive typo and not claim it doesn't matter because it was simply a typo. The fact you did not set out to offend, doesn't change the offence caused by your actions. As I said below, this whole war is made even more silly by the fact the comment itself was a fairly pointless comment which doesn't even belong on the article talk page. So regardless of the poor way Wiki wikied handled this, I think it's a reasonable question to ask whether there's any real advantage to bringing this to ANI, and then make an offensive typo while doing do. Nil Einne (talk) 05:52, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

If you refer to Wiki wikied ever again in a situation where it is not a typo, I'd support an indefinite block of you. That's an entirely unwarranted response and I cannot think of any administrator that would seriously consider that an appropriate course of action. But I think it's clear to everyone here that using a neutral pronoun is best practice, that's not why we're here or what the core issue is. 5225_C (talk • contributions) 06:06, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

I find that Template:They is useful in these cases. Hatman31 (he/him · talk · contribs) 19:30, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

Just a note that I had warned with {{uw-tpv1}} here for edit #1 (which had no edit summary about pronoun use) before those three warnings, so there were technically four warnings. ObserveOwl (chit-chat • my doings) 01:53, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

Putting aside the pronoun issue, IMO the dispute is fairly silly since the actual comment being warred over doesn't really belong to the talk page. If Island92 wants to warn another editor they're free to do so themselves. But they should be doing so on the editor's talk page not the article talk page. Then the editor warned would be free to remove the comment without issue. The talk page should be used for discussing the changes rather than warning others. I still don't think Wiki wikied should have removed it like that especially without a decent explanation, but the fact remains if we step back the whole dispute is IMO very silly. Nil Einne (talk) 05:40, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

I agree, it's petty and unproductive. However, Wiki wikied is still acting disruptively, and their editing activity since April (which has only been reverting the comment in question and removing warnings from their own talk page) suggests that this disruption could actually be deliberate. A warning that this disruption will not be tolerated, and that a block may follow if their activity continues to be purely disruptive in nature, is an appropriate response to resolve this. 5225_C (talk • contributions) 05:50, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

Then give such a warning. My point is that ultimately anyone involved was always free to do so so there's no reason this needs to be at ANI. ANI is for serious issues not those that can be resolved by someone recognising that even if the reasoning was poor, in the end there is no harm to removing that comment since it's something that simply didn't belong on the talk page so they could simply warn everyone who needed it not to repeat that shit again. Nil Einne (talk) 06:00, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

We're at ANI because Wiki wikied has ignored all warnings (consult their talk page's history) and is continuing to disrupt. This may warrant administrator intervention to deter further disruption. 06:06, 26 May 2024 (UTC)— Preceding unsigned comment added by 5225C (talk • contribs) ^<diff>

I ran out of time to post this but if an admin wants to block Wiki wikied I see no harm in that. However I've tried to resolve the immediate issue by removing the misplaced warning and explained to Island92 why I did so and what to do with warnings in the future and also asked them not to refer to Wiki wikied as "he". I've also warned Wiki wikied against doing such removals again emphasising that even if they've asked an editor not to do that the correctly solution is to report it rather than remove it. Nil Einne (talk) 07:06, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for your initiative Nil Einne – I see Wiki wikied has removed your warning so they have seen it, hopefully they heed that advice and there won't be any further disruptive behaviour. 5225_C (talk • contributions) 07:13, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

I've already said quite a lot so I'll leave probably one final comment. First I'll acknowledge I missed that the comment being removed was over a month old, I had thought it was quite recent. Even so, this only makes a minor change to my thinking.

I feel we and I'm definitely including myself in that, have a tendency to miss the forest from the trees in some disputes, and this is IMO one such example. As I've said, being generous the comment was at best a misplaced warning to a specific editor which would belong on the editor's talk page and not the article talk page.

IMO, it wasn't even one of those warnings that was a combination of warning plus possible starting point for discussion over some dispute. At least to me as an uninvolved editor, it's very difficult to parse from that comment why Island92 objects to the change and feels it's not an improvement other than something about "see history".

Assuming the history most likely refers to the article, I had a look and found comments like "We've already discussed this with no consensus to change" and "We've just discussed this". But this is by itself fairly useless as an explanation for the problems with the change, what we actually need is the older discussion.

The older discussion is I guess the discussion Grands Prix Results one which is at this time right above that comment[175]. So all that comment actual does is direct us through a very roundabout way to see the discussion which is now right above that comment!

In other words, it's fairly useless for any other editor and I see no purpose to keep it on the article talk page. I said "being generous" earlier since it wasn't even actually a warning. Instead it was asking some other unnamed party to warn the editor. If I had to guess, Island92 is an inexperienced editor and incorrectly thought and maybe still thinks there are mods responsible for monitoring behaviour and warnings editors which of course isn't how the English wikipedia works. So in some ways the comment was even more pointless.

Yes it's very common that editors have such confusion and misplace warnings, and a lot of the time we just let it be. But it's also very common we collapse, in-place archive, immediately archive to a subpage or simply remove such comments. In this particular case, it seems that the comment was causing offence, maybe even distress to the editor concerned. That being the case, there seems to be even more reason to just remove the comment rather than keeping it up.

While this was not an editor's talk page, the same principle actually applies. In so much as it was intended as a warning to a specific editor, we can assume that editor has already read the warning otherwise they wouldn't be removing it. So even more reason why it was simpler just to let the removal stand.

Yes the stated reason for removal might have been flawed, but it was simple to annotate the edit summary or alternative for some editor seeing the edit war to take over the removal and give a better explanation for why they were removing it like I did. They can approach the editors concerned and explain the situation as I did.

As an alternative, perhaps Wiki wikied would have been fine with the comment being archived to a subpage. Although frankly, removing pointless comments on talk pages which haven't yet been archived rather than archiving them, even after a long time isn't uncommon either.

Let's also consider the alterntive which is that someone needs to ask Island92 to change their comment, and Island92 need to go an modify a comment which as I now realise was over a month old and which did not belong on the that talk page anyway, and where the actual issue seems to be dead. (At least so far Wiki wikied hasn't returning to trying to change to their preferred version of the table.)

So I guess what I'm reminding editors is always consider taking a step back in disputes like this and rather than looking at issues of simple black and white, 'you removed the comment for a unjustified reason so I'll revert you' and when you keep on insisting on removal, the bring you to ANI to get you blocked probably also resulting in a bunch of editors needing to look into the dispute. While all these actions might be technically justified, I think we (and again definitely including myself in that) should never forget to look at the wider picture and ask ourselves, is there actually some way I can resolve that without all this? And also, even if an editor might not have left a good explanation in wikipedia terms, for their change but is there actually a good reason for their change nevertheless? (I.E. Remember to always consider the change rather than just the explanation.)

Nil Einne (talk) 09:45, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

• Nil Einne's wise advice both here and at at User talk:Wiki wikied appear to have been ignored by the user. They haven't edited recently. Instead of a WP:PARBLOCK from Talk:2024 Formula One World Championship, perhaps I could create an interesting but wildly inaccurate note about how the "singular they" entered the English language when the Vikings established an Australian Football League expansion team in Northeast England on their talkpage? Shirt58 (talk) 🦘 10:56, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Personal attacks by 206.188.41.102

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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This IP user 206.188.41.102 has repeatedly made personal attacks against multiple users despite being warned repeatedly. The user is continuing relentlessly despite all of their attacks being removed. It's clear the user is not going to stop and a block is warranted (IP's contribs). RomeshKubajali (talk) 23:40, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

agreed, been having to revert their edits for the past 10 minutes or so (they even made on here on this thread) Gaismagorm (talk) 23:44, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

Blocked 72 hours. – Muboshgu (talk) 23:45, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

they are still disruptively editing their own talk page (not sure if its technically vandalism but you might want to still take a look at it) Gaismagorm (talk) 23:46, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Abuse of automated translation tools by User:Bafuncius

Bafuncius (talk · contribs) is using automated translation tools to add content to Eastern esotericism. They have massively expanded the article with material that essentially duplicates our article on Vajrayana, apparently translated from the Portuguese Wikipedia article Esoterismo no Oriente. See also this comment, where they assert ownership of the material because they "wrote" the Portuguese article. Two editors oppose the extensive duplicative addition of badly automated translated material, but Bafuncius has reverted both of us, and their rhetoric suggests they will continue to do so. I'd just take it to 3RR, but the major issues is the misuse of automated translation. Skyerise (talk) 03:43, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

Proof? Anybody can see in the discussion page that I was always civil, compromising in editing and making the article better, while Skyerise and Flemmish Nietzsche were threatening, not presuming good faith, and impatient. Also, Skyerise offended me here, with perhaps a depreciative tone against my language/nationality: special:diff/1225694928 Bafuncius (talk) 03:56, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

It seems this editor was also involved with the massive autotranslated article on Kardecist spiritism, which is still full of broken citations and other serious issues. I tried to fix it at one point, but gave up. Don't our rules on the use of automated translation require the editor to have enough knowledge of the subject to correct and revise the translations? Also, both Flemmish Nietzsche and I have tried to explain that WP:SUMMARYSTYLE does not allow for the duplication of 60,000 bytes of material which belongs in another article entirely, but Bafuncius (talk · contribs) has failed to respond about or otherwise address that issue. They argue that there may be information in the material which was added to Eastern esotericism that is missing from Vajrayana, but the answer to that is that it should have been added to the most relevant article rather than essentially creating a WP:POVFORK of an existing article. Skyerise (talk) 04:05, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

Agree. Bafuncius, you're not really listening to the main point here. In addition to what was said by Skyerise, you can't have a section of an article that is both a POVFORK and is almost the same length of the main article itself. Not all the content from both versions can be included in the Vajrayana article, too, as that would put it over the readability word count. Just because the combined content from two wikis on a subject may have some stuff one doesn't have, doesn't mean that both wikis need all the content from both language articles. We all must adhere to WP:SUMMARYSTYLE. Flemmish Nietzsche (talk) 04:13, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

The article was created by User:Isaguge, not Bafuncius. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 04:25, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

They were the one who auto-translated it, but Bafuncius wrote the original content on the Portuguese wikipedia. As the writer of the original article (in the Portuguese version, before it was translated to the English version) from the talk page of Eastern esotericism. Flemmish Nietzsche (talk) 04:27, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

Yes, there seems to be a cross-wiki ownership issue here. Different language Wikipedia editors may make different editorial decisions about how to present material using WP:SUMMARYSTYLE. It's not correct to try to force or coerce English Wikipedia to adopt the monolithic style chosen by Portuguese Wikipedia through edit-warring to keep the same structure as the Portuguese article. Skyerise (talk) 04:36, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

Yes, that's the point I was making above — not every language version wiki has to present content in the same manner or have the same specific content on a topic. Flemmish Nietzsche (talk) 04:39, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

In no way was I or am I claiming ownership of the article; when I said As the writer of the original article (in the Portuguese version, before it was translated to the English version), my intention was to show that I am knowledgeable about the whole of the article and to intellectually reinforce my argument of why I completely disagreed with the massive removal: thus I stated some specific reasons, and in no moment did I say something like: "this is my article, no one can edit!". Also, it served to show my indignation against that destructive removal: many of the paragraphs are not found duplicated from other articles, and a good proportion of the removed content is also not found in the article Vajrayana. I see now that here in the English article there is indeed a duplication of some main topics: I've created the article in Portuguese, so I was not aware of the situation here. But as can be seen in the talk page, there was no effort in explaining this to me before this report, and most of the replies were unfounded threats that I was edit-warring or inserting bad automatic translations. Bafuncius (talk) 11:59, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

IP editor adds unsourced content to JP writing system articles

49.32.235.247 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), 2409:4040:D1D:53D9:0:0:C9CB:2315 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) and 2409:4040:6E9A:45A8:0:0:C94B:6401 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) have repeatedly added unsourced content to the Kana and Small Kana Extension articles: [176] [177] [178] [179] [180] [181] [182] [183] are just a few of the edits those IPs have done. You can see the history of the articles for more examples. Communicating with this person is impossible because they never use talk pages. I got the two articles protected at RfPP and this user just waited the protection out and kept doing the same edits. Nickps (talk) 10:08, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

(Comment) All of the edits seems to have been reverted. ABG (Talk/Report any mistakes here) 01:03, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

The editor is still active. Nickps (talk) 11:27, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

See also [184] [185] [186]. Nickps (talk) 12:30, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

I've now semiprotected Kana, Small Kana Extension and Katakana for two months each. If you see the problem spreading to more articles consider reporting at WP:AIV. EdJohnston (talk) 18:10, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Personal attacks by Ribosome786

The user Ribosome786 has repeatedly made personal attacks by using blatant derogatory slurs (like F and N words) in their edit summaries [187][188][189], the user continuosly doing poor and disruptive edits, they also seems to be involved in sockpuppetry; see Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Mohammad Umar Ali. Clearly they're WP:NOTHERE to build Wikipedia. Based.Kashmiri ^(🗨️) 13:57, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

I've left a warning on their talk, and same for the other user they're sparring with. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 14:09, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

That helps, Thanks. Based.Kashmiri ^(🗨️) 15:59, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

possible multiple account abuse by user:cheezitspullens and user:cheeseitsspecial

these two accounts are making disruptive edits of the page for pullen adding info about a fictional country called "pullenisti". both of these accounts also have somewhat similar names.

links to users:
user:CheezItsPullens
user:Cheeseitsspecial

Gaismagorm (talk)

Clear sockpuppetry; blocked both as vandalism only accounts. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 15:08, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

alright thanks! glad that's dealt with! Gaismagorm (talk) Gaismagorm (talk) 17:06, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

IPs that persistently harass me

49.228.178.54 (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • blacklist hits • AbuseLog • what links to user page • COIBot • Spamcheck • count • block log • x-wiki • Edit filter search • WHOIS • RDNS • tracert • robtex.com • StopForumSpam • Google • AboutUs • Project HoneyPot)

112.185.217.122 (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • blacklist hits • AbuseLog • what links to user page • COIBot • Spamcheck • count • block log • x-wiki • Edit filter search • WHOIS • RDNS • tracert • robtex.com • StopForumSpam • Google • AboutUs • Project HoneyPot)

119.203.171.151 (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • blacklist hits • AbuseLog • what links to user page • COIBot • Spamcheck • count • block log • x-wiki • Edit filter search • WHOIS • RDNS • tracert • robtex.com • StopForumSpam • Google • AboutUs • Project HoneyPot)

221.154.111.66 (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • blacklist hits • AbuseLog • what links to user page • COIBot • Spamcheck • count • block log • x-wiki • Edit filter search • WHOIS • RDNS • tracert • robtex.com • StopForumSpam • Google • AboutUs • Project HoneyPot)

61.46.178.196 (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • blacklist hits • AbuseLog • what links to user page • COIBot • Spamcheck • count • block log • x-wiki • Edit filter search • WHOIS • RDNS • tracert • robtex.com • StopForumSpam • Google • AboutUs • Project HoneyPot)

121.165.52.228 (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • blacklist hits • AbuseLog • what links to user page • COIBot • Spamcheck • count • block log • x-wiki • Edit filter search • WHOIS • RDNS • tracert • robtex.com • StopForumSpam • Google • AboutUs • Project HoneyPot)

176.226.233.66 (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • blacklist hits • AbuseLog • what links to user page • COIBot • Spamcheck • count • block log • x-wiki • Edit filter search • WHOIS • RDNS • tracert • robtex.com • StopForumSpam • Google • AboutUs • Project HoneyPot)

220.121.78.226 (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • blacklist hits • AbuseLog • what links to user page • COIBot • Spamcheck • count • block log • x-wiki • Edit filter search • WHOIS • RDNS • tracert • robtex.com • StopForumSpam • Google • AboutUs • Project HoneyPot)

153.206.208.207 (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • blacklist hits • AbuseLog • what links to user page • COIBot • Spamcheck • count • block log • x-wiki • Edit filter search • WHOIS • RDNS • tracert • robtex.com • StopForumSpam • Google • AboutUs • Project HoneyPot)

Since the 23rd of May, those IPs have reverted my edits and talk page without any explanations. It seems that those IPs are 'stalking' and trying to disrupt my edits to harass me. 117.53.77.84 (talk) 15:16, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

All of the listed IPs are VPN proxies. I've blocked all that have edited today or yesterday (a couple haven't edited since May 23). That said, I have no idea what's going on, i.e., the merits of 117.'s edits, in other words should they be reverted in the first instance. Given the number of proxies, I would expect this would continue.--Bbb23 (talk) 15:36, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

The usual response to persistent disruptive behavior by a range of random VPN addresses would be semiprotection. But if the disruption is happening on an IP editor's talk page, that would be counterproductive. I guess the only advice is: why not make a login? —David Eppstein (talk) 18:27, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

Years of disruptive edits by IP incorrectly updating maintenance templates

91.106.57.222 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) is the current IP used by an editor who has, for years, consistently updated the dates on maintenance templates across many articles, while ignoring requests to stop and not responding to any talk page message. Although currently based in Iraq they have previously used IPs in Turkey in 2022 and 2023. The history of Deployment of COVID-19 vaccines shows many, many updates to the date in the sentence "As of [date], [number] COVID-19 vaccine doses have been administered worldwide" without changing the number of doses administered (as well as changing the date in the "Use dmy dates" template)

• May 20, 2024
• May 7, 2024
• January 3, 2024 (second change on this date)
• December 4, 2023
• November 9, 2023
• October 16, 2023
• September 24, 2023
• April 16, 2023 (second change on this date)
• January 11, 2023
• December 6, 2022
• November 21, 2022
• November 7, 2022
• October 2, 2022
• September 9, 2022
• April 4, 2022 (second change on this date)
• March 2, 2022
• March 1, 2022
• February 27, 2022
• February 17, 2022
• February 9, 2022
• January 25, 2022
• January 19, 2022
• January 11, 2022
• January 2, 2022
• December 16, 2021

I decided to stop once I reached 2021. They also make the same maintenance date chang edits to articles, generally relating to ongoing conflicts in the Middle East but also ongoing conflicts elsewhere, which connects the Turkish and Iraq edits to the same editor (see for example 81.214.107.17 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) and 95.12.115.60 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) for the Turkish IPs and 91.106.57.49 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) and 91.106.54.35 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) for the Iraqs IPs, as well the as current IP at the top of this thread).

The history of Sudanese civil war (2023–present) shows their approach on conflict articles. As well as incorrectly updating any maintenance templates, they constantly update map captions to the current date even when the corresponding image hasn't been updated (you'd think instead of making pop songs mimicing famous artists, someone could make AI do live updates for us)

• May 25, 2024
• May 20, 2024
• January 9, 2024

Similarly at Darfur campaign.

• April 11, 2024
• December 15, 2023

Same behaviour on many other conflict related articles, no need to hammer the point home any more I hope. As well as that, they also incorrectly update dates on other maintenance templates such as "one source", "More citations needed", "Original research" and "Expand", "very long" and many more, I hope I've already provided enough.

@Discospinster: asked them at User talk:91.106.57.8 in December 2023 to stop updating dates on maintenance templates, as have I at User talk:91.106.61.248 (16 April 2024), User talk:91.106.58.243 (28 April 2024) and User talk:91.106.57.222 (repeated posts in May 2024). They don't communicate in any way. A range block on 91.106.56.0/21 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · block user · block log) would appear to have zero collateral damage, so if deemed necessary perhaps this could be enacted please? Kathleen's bike (talk) 15:17, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

AFD behaviour

Mooresklm2016 is behaving problematically around an AFD discussion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Meritt North. First they tried to repeatedly strip the AFD template from the article; even after I posted to their user talk page to advise them that they aren't allowed to do that, and have to leave the template on the page until the discussion has run its course, they simply reverted my post back off their talk page and continued to revert war over the template, forcing me to temporarily sprot the page. Now they're just trying to WP:BLUDGEON the AFD itself with long, long screeds of text and lists of primary sourcing — with this, in which they tried to give each individual paragraph in their screed the full == == headline treatment to the point that I had to do an WP:AWB edit on it to strip that because the page had so many headlines in it, being the most egregious example.

But since I was the initiator of the discussion, I'm obviously not the appropriate person to decide if any consequences are warranted since I'm directly "involved". Could somebody look into this and determine if any warnings or other repercussions are needed? Thanks. Bearcat (talk) 15:48, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

I collapsed the most prominent TL;DR screed on the AfD debate shortly before giving my Delete argument. A request to remove the prot at RFPP/D by Mooresklm2016 got declined by Favonian, citing the AfD template removals. —Jéské Couriano v^_^v ^{threads critiques} 17:16, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

I have p-blocked them from the AfD and article to allow consensus to be reached. Should the article be retained, block adjustment can be handled by a reviewing admin. Star Mississippi 13:52, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

After responding productively editor has now decided I'm the problem. If someone who isn't Involved would like to remind them again of NPA, that might be helpful. Star Mississippi 16:20, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

And the IDHT is very strong with this one, to the point I'm thinking high conflict-of-interest. —Jéské Couriano v^_^v ^{threads critiques} 18:05, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

They've basically admitted to being the subject of the article on its talk page ("my biography"). Schazjmd (talk) 18:08, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

Could just be that they're very possessive of the article and see it as belonging to them. – Primium (talk) 18:15, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

Um yeah, I don't think so. The full quote: :Tantor Media (one of the top audiobook production companies in existence and they only take on the best of the best. They have my biography, demo, and everything published Schazjmd (talk) 18:19, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

It's definitely PAID if not an autobiography, I misfiled Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Mooresklm2016 but I also think there's some hijinks going on with Randy Brooks (gospel musician) which was what led me to UPE. Star Mississippi 18:10, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

UPE

When trying to find a version of Randy Brooks to revert back to without infringing text, I found this which is indicative of an assignment. I'm Involved so won't take action on the account, but suggest it be looked at a little harder for UPE. Star Mississippi 18:19, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

and the intersection with User:Mooresklm2016/sandbox/billtest is clear. For any reviewing admin, recommend extending block rather than lifting. Star Mississippi 18:37, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

I think Bill Brooks (voice actor) is another case. Orange sticker (talk) 08:52, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

without a doubt, I think we're looking at a UPE farm besides this being an autobiography. Added to SPI Star Mississippi 12:52, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

User:Repertoire18 is ignoring repeated warnings about WP:PUFF and WP:NPOV

I hate to haul another user up here but, I feel that, at this point, it has become a necessity. This user routinely inserts WP:PUFF wording into articles [190] , and fails to comply with WP:NPOV [191] despite several warnings [192], he has continued to do so [193]. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Allan Nonymous (talk • contribs) 15:58, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

I looked through their edit history. I see no edit summaries or any replies in chats. Making me think this is a WP:NOTHERE user.CycoMa1 (talk) 18:03, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

They have repeatedly blanked their talk page, so they have seen those previous messages. Seems like a WP:RADAR strategy. Just Step Sideways ^{from this world ..... today} 18:34, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

I do have to say I don't feel like I'm seeing a "smoking gun" in any of these diffs though. Lack of communication is a real issue, but I'm not sure a good case has been made that their edits are all that problematic. I'm willing to be convinced but at the moment I'm not seeing it. Just Step Sideways ^{from this world ..... today} 18:39, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

I guess this is a new user who doesn’t understand the goal of Wikipedia. But still I do think they might need some kind of block.CycoMa1 (talk) 19:00, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

I know for a fact users can get blocked for being non-communicative. Just don’t remember the page name for that policy.CycoMa1 (talk) 19:04, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

That would either be WP:ENGAGE or WP:RADAR Supreme_Bananas (talk) 19:45, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

Agreed. This is clearly a case of WP:NOTHERE. Amigao (talk) 19:42, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

Agreed, so I'm blocking. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 21:11, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

Continued addition of unsourced material after final warning by 72.240.103.78

IP has continued adding unsourced material to articles after receiving a final warning. Diffs:

• Special:Diff/1225799736
• Special:Diff/1225799864
• Special:Diff/1225800135
• Special:Diff/1225800257

voorts (talk/contributions) 20:15, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

Note they appear to be making stuff up [194] same film as Diff1 above yet a different runtime? Lavalizard101 (talk) 20:43, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) This calls for a block. Literally every single one of their edits have been reverted for the same reasons. The 🏎 Corvette 🏍 ZR1^{(The Garage)} 20:44, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

Most likely LTA IPs. This is very common on film articles. They are reverting back the reverts as I type this. Mike Allen 20:46, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

Ok, now this IP is spamming. PLEASE, some admin step in. The 🏎 Corvette 🏍 ZR1^{(The Garage)} 20:54, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

I've reported the IP to WP:AIV as this is obvious vandalism now. Lavalizard101 (talk) 21:09, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

Thanks. voorts (talk/contributions) 21:09, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

Good. I'm tired of having to refresh the contribs of the IP every 5 seconds to check for vandalism. The 🏎 Corvette 🏍 ZR1^{(The Garage)} 21:10, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

Now they've been blocked for 31 hours by Izno for vandalism. The 🏎 Corvette 🏍 ZR1^{(The Garage)} 21:16, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

clear use of multiple accounts by user:Quavvalos

user:Quavvalos recently made a user page with the text saying "AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA 4 ACCOUNTS IN ONE DAY Your anti evasione system is ridiculous!!!🤣🤣🤣". this doesn't get any more obvious. Gaismagorm (talk) 21:18, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

also check out user:Quovalos, which due to the similar name and user:Quavvalos responding to a teahouse comment made by quovalos about block evasion might be an account under the same person. Gaismagorm (talk) 21:21, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

and user:Quaavalos who is doing the same Gaismagorm (talk) 21:22, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

okay Quaavalos and quovalos have been blocked but not quavvalos Gaismagorm (talk) 21:25, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

okay Quavvalos has now been blocked. so situation has been solved. Gaismagorm (talk) 21:26, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/14 novembre. This troll has been disrupting the Teahouse and the help desk all day. Just Step Sideways ^{from this world ..... today} 21:27, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

okay, well good luck to y'all with dealing with them Gaismagorm (talk) 21:29, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

Oh I also mentioned them on the sockuppet investigation, just letting ya know Gaismagorm (talk) 21:44, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

@Just Step Sideways, what should be done with the amount of troll sections created in the Teahouse? Someone even went ahead and requested protection. ABG (Talk/Report any mistakes here) 01:07, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

I'd assume you'd just delete them as vandalism. Do not ever respond or attempt to engage in discussion once it's clear it's a sock of this guy. Air on White (talk) 01:09, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

I'll try to tell responders to watch out for new accounts with Italian usernames in the meantime... Especially if they are from itwiki. ABG (Talk/Report any mistakes here) 01:21, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

Months of WP:HOUNDING by User:Let'srun

Since December 2023, User:Let'srun has been consistently WP:HOUNDING me by following me around and opposing me at various different places, including some extremely obvious examples coupled with some personal attacks, incivility, and general disruption towards football articles in the areas I work. I have been extremely patient in dealing with this user, trying to minimise contact, etc., but he has not stopped, and as such I feel I have no choice but to send this to ANI. Below, I have listed extensive instances of hounding and harassment directed towards me by this user. To make things a little easier to read in the "Complete – chronological" section, I have left some more minor evidences in small font, some moderate evidences in normal font, whereas more obvious examples are in bold font. I have also copied some evidences from the section to a "Major evidences" section.

Background

To start, I found it peculiar that his first contributions were attempts to mass delete articles; see [195]. First interaction seems to be me commenting at an AFD of his (August 2023): [196] - nothing unusual. September 2023: I assisted in saving an article he nom'ed for deletion: [197] Started nominating football stuff in October with [198]. Saved another Dec. 6: [199]. Saved an article he nom'ed for deletion on Dec. 11: [200].

Complete – chronological

Note that much of this comes from emails with other users from the past (who similarly believed the behaviour was disruptive); as such, a few of the links may be out of date, but can still be found by looking through contributions lists. Right after (two minutes) he responds at the Boston College-Virginia Tech AFD (mentioned in above section), disagreeing with my provided sources for GNG ([201]), he bizarrely draftifies an AFC submission I accepted for having "too few sources" ([202]) when it had three and significant coverage. December 16: he votes "redirect" at an article I substantially expanded; ultimately kept: [203]. Five minutes later: does the same at a different discussion involving me that I voted keep (eventually kept): [204]. December 18: I make a comment at one his AFDs (Darroll DeLaPorte), could be considered inclusion-leaning: [205]. Excluding two minutes later, his very next actions ([206]) are to tag two of my creations in two minutes, both Italians for the 1926 Hartford Blues whom I created in consecutive months, for missing significant coverage, one of whom (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Rocky_Segretta&diff=prev&oldid=1190596820) that was incorrect. Five minutes after replying to me at the DeLaPorte discussion ([207]), he nominates an article created by me for deletion, which was kept ([208]). I save another article he nom'ed for deletion December 21: [209]. Seven minutes after it is kept, he mass tags for significant coverage 28 articles ([210]). December 21: creates a merger article from my work without attribution ([211]). (Not that I really care that much about it, but I've seen others get upset about it before.) Mass sigcov tags 23 articles on December 22, then eight more on Dec. 24 (not that its necessarily wrong, but he has access to sources and knows how to find them, so it'd be just about as easy for him to do that). On December 26, I reverted "refimprove" tags on List of current CFL players added by Andrevan; one day later, tags are interestingly re-introduced by Let'srun; reverts by me with explanation are repeatedly either reverted by him with no explanation or explanations that didn't make sense: [212]. Something similar happened with the XFL and USFL lists; but he later brought them to AFD and they were deleted, so I can't view the history. January 1, 2024, very oddly comes across Art Whizin, an article kept at AFD over a week earlier, where I had commented, and adds maintenance tags: [213]. January 2, there was discussion over whether to have a notability tag on an article just kept at AFD; I make a comment and include a source and Let'srun somehow finds my comment and finds a reason to discount it: [214]. Eight minutes after I rebut his argument there ([215]), he ludicrously TAGBOMBs - including for notability - (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions/Let%27srun&target=Let%27srun&dir=prev&offset=20231227013618&limit=500) several NFL players that he could have easily found GNG-coverage for. Each reverted soon by two different editors (incl. myself); see [216] [217] [218] and [219]. Shortly after, nominates a 30 game NFL player for deletion; article kept after my efforts: Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Vivian_Hultman. A little bit later, oddly adds and removes categories to a 1895 Tufts football article ([220]); not created by me but I did other Tufts articles; odd. Later that day, votes against me at an AFD; noting that he "never agree[s] with the constant [other stuff exists] arguments by BF" ([221]). After noting his disagreement with a comment I made at the 30-game NFL player AFD, his next two actions are to nominate for deletion to articles created by me - both of which I created in a two-day span ([222]). I do not see how he could have found those besides looking at my userpage. 15:24 January 4: votes "redirect" at a AFD I was involved in: [223]. Soon after, I revert some of the ridiculous notability taggings mentioned earlier ([224]) - his first actions after that, seven more silly notability taggings (six reverted): [225]. Then I added a sigcov source to Bill Gutterson, Ellery White already had one (two of the articles tagged by him) - he continually re-adds the tags, then inserts some more maintenance tags, on account of the non-existent requirement that "enough sources to satisfy GNG need to be IN the article". Ultimately reverted (notability tags are not allowed to be re-added...). When I add sources to another one - Shorty Barr - (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions/BeanieFan11&target=BeanieFan11&dir=prev&offset=20240101220745&limit=500) - his first edit, aside from one in his userspace, is another ludicrous notability tagging, which he easily could have found sources to demonstrate GNG for (Jim MacMurdo). January 11: nominates two season articles created by me for deletion (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions/Let%27srun&target=Let%27srun&dir=prev&offset=20231227013618&limit=500), starting a series of SIX consecutive unrelated nominations for deletion of season articles created by me (other non-football ones mixed in between - [226]). Early Jan. 12, another AFD of an article by me: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/1897 South Dakota State Jackrabbits football team. Two more on Jan. 16 (1892 Biddle/Livingstone). The sixth (1901 Wilmington Conf. Acad.) on Jan. 19. Here's where it gets interesting: I comment "This is at least the ninth time you've nominated for deletion an article written by me in a month. Its starting to feel excessive." He leaves me a message ([227]) asking me to "withdraw my personal attack". I said it felt like a totally reasonable comment, especially since it was six straight and he was averaging one per three days of mine. Jan. 20, PRODs notable 1916 Tusculum Pioneers football team ([228]) - interesting how he found it, since he mainly focused on 1870s-1900s seasons, and it was related to an article I wrote (Tusculum Pioneers football, 1901–1910). Later on Jan. 20, tags for notability four clearly notable articles (Frank Robinson, Pete Swanson, Marshall Edwards, Joe Rowe) in FOUR MINUTES which were all created directly after each other by me as some of my earliest work ([229]). He had said, in the talk page discussion, that he was not targeting my articles. That seems pretty clearly targeting. Also worth noting - the MINUTE after I reverted one of the taggings for being clearly notable ([230]) - he has two more plainly ridiculous notability taggings for obviously notable NFL players ([231] - Ty Coon / Buster Mitchell). Five minutes after I revert the notability tag for Mitchell ([232]), he slaps on a bunch of other maintenance tags and makes me do the work, even when I linked sources in my revert edit summary ([233]). Jan. 22: opposes my good faith efforts to draftify some of the AFD nominations so I could work on them later - he repeatedly opposes them - I don't get why one would do so (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/1881_Georgetown_football_team and https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/1892_Western_Maryland_Green_Terror_football_team&diff=prev&oldid=1198089209). Right after, replies on my talk page (in response to me saying it was not a personal attack to point out his AFD statistics): "It comes with the inherent accusation that I am targeting your articles for deletion, which I am not." I respond by asking how he found the four (Swanson et al.) and the Tusculum season, he responds by avoiding the Swanson question, and saying "Using categories created for the respective teams, and the early college football seasons...For the last time, I ask you to strike that comment." Do you know what he does next? Tags for notability not one, not two, not three, but SEVEN articles relating to my work for notability (South Dakota, Columbian, Lewisburg - [234]). I question how he found them in rapid succession, and ask "And even if that's all random, I still ask: what about Edwards, Swanson, Robinson and Rowe". His response completely avoids the question ([235]): "I'm confused, were you formally MisterCake? That is who created the Lewisburg articles I tagged." (One season after the 1883 Lewisburg football team – 1887 Bucknell football team – an article I created.) I point that out, and again ask about Swanson; he replies "I already answered that above. Categories...." I point out that several of them had absolutely ZERO categories in common, ask again, and he gives the confusing non-answer "Because there are ways to switch queries beyond who created the article?" WHICH he follows by voting "delete" at an AFD I voted keep ([236]) and three minutes later doing similar for another AFD ([237]). I leave two comments: the first "I'm finding your response difficult to understand; but the only place these articles (Swanson, Edwards) are connected are at my userpage, where they are listed next to each other. There are no "categories" that connect them; considering the thousands of NFL stubs, how could your "queries" come across only mine?" and "How about this: why don't you tell me, exactly, how you came across these articles (Swanson, Edwards, Robinson, Rowe), and we can end this discussion?" He avoids answering for a bit, adds another pathetic-and-now-reverted notability tag to a clearly notable NFL player ([238]) and finally responds with a non-answer to the first one (ignoring the second - [239]) - "They don't. You just picked 4 articles that I have tagged which were created by you through searching multiple categories of NFL teams (and you have hundreds of articles). I don't have any issue with the vast majority of your articles, just because I maybe disagree with 1-2% of your creations (if that) does not mean I am single-handedly targeting them." Five minutes later, another AFD comment in opposition to me ([240]). I respond "You're avoiding the question; tell me exactly how you found those four completely unrelated articles in a span of four minutes ... answer the question: tell me, exactly, how you came across Swanson, Edwards, Robinson and Rowe in four minutes." He says that "I'll repeat myself: searching multiple categories of NFL teams." I tell him how absurd and unlikely that is; I am certain he just looked from the start of my userpage creations list to target: "OK - so in four minutes, you randomly searched Category:Brooklyn Dodgers (NFL) players, completely randomly came across, out of over 200 others, Marshall Edwards which I happened to create, found it to tag for notability; one minute later, randomly searched Category:Los Angeles Rams players, containing over 1,000, and randomly choose to tag for notability Pete Swanson, the article I created right after Edwards; then one minute later randomly searched Category:St. Louis Rams players, a category of over 800, randomly found Joe Rowe, which I coincidentally created right after Swanson; and then one minute later, searched Category:Denver Broncos players, a category of ~1,600, and randomly found to tag for notability Frank Robinson, whom I also coincidentally happened to create right around the time of Rowe? If so, that is the most amazing coincidence I have heard of in my life". Never responded. Soon after, I make a comment referencing him ([241]) and then within minutes, he nominates a category created by me for deletion ([242]). At the 1881 Georgetown discussion (mentioned above, where he opposed my draftification efforts), he repeatedly stated that I was advocating to keep it when I just stated to draftify so I could create a merger target - I straightforwardly tell him that I am not advocating to keep it - he replies with a massive failure of WP:AGF, straight out calling me a liar with ill intent ([243]): "You actually are advocating to keep it, you are just trying to pretend that you aren't by first creating a draft and once the smoke has cleared putting it back in mainspace." (interesting how he considers pointing out basic facts - i.e. that he nominated nine of my articles for deletion in a month - as personal attacks, whereas this...isn't?) Then, to prove him wrong, I simply start the merger target in mainspace (Georgetown football, 1874-1889) - now, in the past when others have done similar Let'srun has been supportive of this, even doing one himself on the Delaware State Hornets (which, actually, was a direct copy of my work without attribution) - however, within minutes of me finishing the Georgetown article, he starts by removing relevant content twice and then nominating it for deletion; the discussion has an overwhelming consensus to keep. (Also, interesting that, when I pointed out that he had done the same for arguably less notable groupings in DelState, he removed it from his userpage). More silly notability taggings on Jan. 29, this time on NBA players, which have been reverted (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions/Let%27srun&target=Let%27srun&offset=&limit=500 - Noble Jorgensen, Harry Zeller, some others) User:Cbl62 had sent him a message about "over-personalizing" at AFD, probably referring to the Georgetown discussion - on Jan. 31 Let'srun states that "Looking to the future, I will work to be better". His next edits are to nominate for deletion an article where he had a dispute with me (List of CFL players, which was a clear keep). He also has repeatedly nominatied for deletion college football categories, knowing that I've opposed them before as its part of the standard categorisation scheme; User:Jweiss11 noted at one ([244]) "Let'srun, these nominations are, frankly, a waste of time." Feb. 1: as only AFD vote of the hour, votes at a discussion I was involved in. Feb 5: more silly notability taggings for NBA players Feb 6: No vote for 17 days after the start of the this AFD - within three days of me voting, opposition from Let'srun (consensus was in favour of my argument). Feb 6: more opposition to me at AFD (consensus was in favour of my argument) Feb. 7: finds another discussion I was involved at as the only edit in a 20-hour span, making sure to note what he considered problems in my comment Feb. 9: two minutes before replying to my rebuttal at the second Feb. 6 AFD, critiques my comment at an AFD with SNOW keep consensus Feb. 11: finds another of my AFD comments to critique - article kept Feb. 11: yet again AFDs one of my works Feb. 14: his first comment after refusing to answer a polite request on how many categories he planned on nominating for deletion, somehow finds the RM for USFL Draft and opposes me. Feb. 16: votes rapidly in succession, without any other AFD contributions at two completely different AFDs I was involved in, supporting me weakly at Lubomir Pistek while opposing me at Radoslav Holubek (AFDs). I ask him "May I ask, how did you find both this and [Pistek], your only two votes in the past two days, in rapid succession, considering they both happen to be discussions in which I am involved and seem to be part of an ongoing trend at AFD of you either voting against me or making sure to critique my comments when you do ultimately agree with me?" Doesn't respond there, but makes sure to start voting at other discussions within three minutes, and also responds to another polite college football talk request regarding his CFD noms by saying Why are you singling me out? I immediately responded regarding how it seemed he was actually singling me out while later pinging him asking on the topic; he never responded. Feb. 20: Only vote in a few days, "delete" at an AFD I found sources for. Feb. 21: first edits after a polite request regarding how many CFD nominations he intended on making - to which he never responded - he mass nominates more categories for deletion. Feb. 21: I had opened a close review for the NFL Draft discussion on Feb. 16 but stopped commenting afterwards; after a ping, I returned with one edit to the page on February 21. Very shortly afterwards, Let'srun opposed my close review with some bizarre comments about "forum shopping" that have since been criticised by a number of editors. Feb. 24: as his first AFD comments in awhile, Let'srun votes against me rapidly in short succession both here and here without any other AFD comments. I politely asked he found the discussion with a ping - he immediately voted at another AFD while refusing to answer my question. I asked again with another ping; he again refused to answer how he found the discussion. More following me around later that day, having never responded to any of my repeated questions about how he came across to oppose me at the discussions he did. By this point, I was already extremely close to sending Let'srun here, but decided to be patient and give another chance, and he left me alone for a time. That is, until I rescued the New Britain Mules, an article he sent to AFD, in mid-April. The day after I made an expansion that convinced a "delete" !voter to switch to "keep", Let'srun critiqued one of my comments at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Max Wirth (cyclist). May 2: he opposes me again at an AFD I voted keep, and the article was kept: [245]. I help rescue another article he nom'ed for deletion on May 2: [246]. Two days later: he re-nominates for deletion an article I had helped get kept just two months prior. Right after, he nominates for deletion another page created by me: [247]. May 6: the same day I provide sources to rescue Rome Chambers from AFD, Let'srun adds a maintenance tag to the article, and soon after that, !votes at two AFDs involving me in six minutes ([248] [249]). May 7: comments at two more AFDs in a row involving me (I had de-PRODed them): [250] / [251]. May 10: votes delete at an AFD which I suggested looking for sources. May 11: votes, including twice against me, at three AFDs involving me in a row: [252] / [253] / [254]. May 12: closed an AFD for an article I helped rescue: [255] (hadn't seen him close AFDs before). Later on May 12: minutes after responding to me at an AFD (where he refused to answer a query on how he found the article, given that it was related to me from months back), he !votes at two more AFDs involving me in a row ([256] / [257]) before returning to the discussion. May 17: critiques one of my comments at another AFD and does the same with another AFD. More following me around on May 19, May 21 (May 21 again, opposing me at another AFD).

Major evidences (copied from complete history)

Right after (two minutes) he responds at the Boston College-Virginia Tech AFD (mentioned in above section), disagreeing with my provided sources for GNG ([258]), he bizarrely draftifies an AFC submission I accepted for having "too few sources" ([259]) when it had three and significant coverage. On December 26, I reverted "refimprove" tags on List of current CFL players added by Andrevan; one day later, tags are interestingly re-introduced by Let'srun; reverts by me with explanation are repeatedly either reverted by him with no explanation or explanations that didn't make sense: [260]. Something similar happened with the XFL and USFL lists; but he later brought them to AFD and they were deleted, so I can't view the history. January 11: nominates two season articles created by me for deletion ([261]), starting a series of SIX consecutive unrelated nominations for deletion of season articles created by me (other non-football ones mixed in between - [262]). The sixth (1901 Wilmington Conf. Acad.) on Jan. 19. Here's where it gets interesting: I comment "This is at least the ninth time you've nominated for deletion an article written by me in a month. Its starting to feel excessive." He leaves me a message ([263]) asking me to "withdraw my personal attack". I said it felt like a totally reasonable comment, especially since it was six straight and he was averaging one per three days of mine. Later on Jan. 20, tags for notability four clearly notable articles (Frank Robinson, Pete Swanson, Marshall Edwards, Joe Rowe) in FOUR MINUTES which were all created directly after each other by me as some of my earliest work ([264]). He had said, in the talk page discussion, that he was not targeting my articles. That seems pretty clearly targeting. Also worth noting - the MINUTE after I reverted one of the taggings for being clearly notable ([265]) - he has two more plainly ridiculous notability taggings for obviously notable NFL players ([266] - Ty Coon / Buster Mitchell). Five minutes after I revert the notability tag for Mitchell ([267]), he slaps on a bunch of other maintenance tags. Right after, replies on my talk page (in response to me saying it was not a personal attack to point out his AFD statistics): "It comes with the inherent accusation that I am targeting your articles for deletion, which I am not." I respond by asking how he found the four (Swanson et al.) and a college season, he responds by avoiding the Swanson question, and saying "Using categories created for the respective teams, and the early college football seasons...For the last time, I ask you to strike that comment." Do you know what he does next? Tags for notability not one, not two, not three, but SEVEN articles relating to my work for notability (South Dakota, Columbian, Lewisburg - [268]). I question how he found them in rapid succession, and ask "And even if that's all random, I still ask: what about Edwards, Swanson, Robinson and Rowe". His response completely avoids the question ([269]): "I'm confused, were you formally MisterCake? That is who created the Lewisburg articles I tagged." (One season after the 1883 Lewisburg football team – 1887 Bucknell football team – an article I created.) I point that out, and again ask about Swanson; he replies "I already answered that above. Categories...." I point out that several of them had absolutely ZERO categories in common, ask again, and he gives the confusing non-answer "Because there are ways to switch queries beyond who created the article?" WHICH he follows by voting "delete" at an AFD I voted keep ([270]) and three minutes later doing similar for another AFD ([271]). I leave two comments: the first "I'm finding your response difficult to understand; but the only place these articles (Swanson, Edwards) are connected are at my userpage, where they are listed next to each other. There are no "categories" that connect them; considering the thousands of NFL stubs, how could your "queries" come across only mine?" and "How about this: why don't you tell me, exactly, how you came across these articles (Swanson, Edwards, Robinson, Rowe), and we can end this discussion?" He avoids answering for a bit, adds another pathetic-and-now-reverted notability tag to a clearly notable NFL player ([272]) and finally responds with a non-answer to the first one (ignoring the second - [273]) - "They don't. You just picked 4 articles that I have tagged which were created by you through searching multiple categories of NFL teams (and you have hundreds of articles). I don't have any issue with the vast majority of your articles, just because I maybe disagree with 1-2% of your creations (if that) does not mean I am single-handedly targeting them." Five minutes later, another AFD comment in opposition to me ([274]). I respond "You're avoiding the question; tell me exactly how you found those four completely unrelated articles in a span of four minutes." He says that "I'll repeat myself: searching multiple categories of NFL teams." I tell him how absurd and unlikely that is; I am certain he just looked from the start of my userpage creations list to target: "OK - so in four minutes, you randomly searched Category:Brooklyn Dodgers (NFL) players, completely randomly came across, out of over 200 others, Marshall Edwards which I happened to create, found it to tag for notability; one minute later, randomly searched Category:Los Angeles Rams players, containing over 1,000, and randomly choose to tag for notability Pete Swanson, the article I created right after Edwards; then one minute later randomly searched Category:St. Louis Rams players, a category of over 800, randomly found Joe Rowe, which I coincidentally created right after Swanson; and then one minute later, searched Category:Denver Broncos players, a category of ~1,600, and randomly found to tag for notability Frank Robinson, whom I also coincidentally happened to create right around the time of Rowe? If so, that is the most amazing coincidence I have heard of in my life". Never responded. At the 1881 Georgetown discussion (mentioned above, where he opposed my draftification efforts), he repeatedly stated that I was advocating to keep it when I just stated to draftify so I could create a merger target - I straightforwardly tell him that I am not advocating to keep it - he replies with a massive failure of WP:AGF, straight out calling me a liar with ill intent ([275]): "You actually are advocating to keep it, you are just trying to pretend that you aren't by first creating a draft and once the smoke has cleared putting it back in mainspace." Then, to prove him wrong, I simply start the merger target in mainspace (Georgetown football, 1874-1889) - now, in the past when others have done similar Let'srun has been supportive of this, even doing one himself on the Delaware State Hornets - however, within minutes of me finishing the Georgetown article, he starts by removing relevant content twice and then nominating it for deletion; the discussion has an overwhelming consensus to keep. User:Cbl62 had sent him a message about "over-personalizing" at AFD, probably referring to the Georgetown discussion - on Jan. 31 Let'srun states that "Looking to the future, I will work to be better". His next edits are to nominate for deletion an article where he had a dispute with me (List of CFL players, which was a clear keep). Feb. 16: votes rapidly in succession, without any other AFD contributions at two completely different AFDs I was involved in, supporting me weakly at Lubomir Pistek while opposing me at Radoslav Holubek (AFDs). I ask him "May I ask, how did you find both this and [Pistek], your only two votes in the past two days, in rapid succession, considering they both happen to be discussions in which I am involved and seem to be part of an ongoing trend at AFD of you either voting against me or making sure to critique my comments when you do ultimately agree with me?" Doesn't respond there, but then responds to a polite college football talk request regarding his CFD noms by saying Why are you singling me out? I immediately responded regarding how it seemed he was actually singling me out while later pinging him asking on the topic; he never responded. May 4: he re-nominates for deletion an article I had helped get kept just two months prior. Right after, he nominates for deletion another page created by me: [276]. May 11: votes, including twice against me, at three AFDs involving me in a row: [277] / [278] / [279].

BeanieFan11 (talk) 22:03, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

This is quite a lot to respond to here, so let me try my best here. I have nothing personal against any user here, including BeanieFan11. Rather, if I disagree with any user or believe additional context is needed somewhere, I look to say it and the reasons as for such. Perhaps I could be better about giving supporting evidence at times, and if others consider my behaviour to be disruptive, I am open to hearing why they think so. Let me start with the first bullet point. I edited under a IP before creating an account (which I noted when I was taken to ANI last year, apologies for not finding that post but I will continue to look for it). The first interaction I had with Beanie (or at least that I can find) actually was in July of 2023 when they commented (or critiqued, however you wish to view it) on my AfD for Eugene Petramale, which closed as delete.[[280]]. I have also done some closing of AfD's going back to last year, see this as an example of a AfD not involving BeanieFan11. [[281]]. And for the sake of transparency, one in which BeanieFan11 voted in [[282]] which I nominated and then closed myself as I was persuaded by the evidence provided.

Over 80% of my votes at AfD have closed as 'matches' and the vast majority of my nominations and votes (over 1200) are on articles which were not significantly edited or created by BeanieFan11. When nominating articles, including by BeanieFan11, I have looked to be open to ATDs, which is seen in my nomination statements. I also admit that some of my nominations were later shown to have suitable sources deserving that article to be kept and when that happens I look to refine my BEFORE. I am not sure about the CfD's but I would guess it is a similar match percentage, and other voters who commonly are at CfD have agreed with my nominations in that area, like at [[283]][[284]][[285]] and I have only disagreed with those users in that area that a WikiProject is the best venue for widespread policy to be discussed.

I don't label myself as an inclusionist or deletionist. I look at the available sourcing and follow the guidelines. I don't always agree with other voters but I respect their intentions and believe in WP:GOODFAITH.

Looking at the evidence provided here, I apologise for the conduct at the 1881 Georgetown discussion which was out of line and had unacceptable language, along with the lack of attribution on that combined season article (I wish you had brought that in particular to my attention earlier). I have not intended to hound anyone (honestly it is the first time I've ever seen that cited so I am only reading it now for the first time) and note that we edit in some of the same areas frequently due to common interests. I look at the deletion sorting for sportspeople and sports frequently and often vote in those discussions, several of which BeanieFan has already commented in or does so after myself. I have previously tagged articles sometimes in bulk after having added them to my watchlist but have stopped that practice.

If there is something I didn't cover, please let me know. Let'srun (talk) 23:08, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

• I find the evidence completely unpersuasive. The last three diffs (Special:Permalink/1224980664, Special:Permalink/1225004175, and Special:Permalink/1224641854) are ordinary AFD participation in the topic area of sports, not WP:HOUNDING. Some of the earlier diffs are less civil and more personal, but are stale. If there is a short (WP:THREE) argument that a TBAN or IBAN is necessary, make it; a collection of ordinary interactions is not that. Walsh90210 (talk) 00:52, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
  • I still don't see a case for action now. Too many of the diffs (in the "shorter" version) are complaining about AFDs such as Special:Permalink/1195055730 (which I think is the "South Dakota" reference mentioned). An insistence on keeping stand-alone articles like that, at all costs, is largely what got Lugnuts banned. The diffs presented from the past 3 months are still completely innocuous; if "an editor occasionally disagrees with me at AFD" is causing BeanieFan distress, BeanieFan is the editor who needs to disengage from the project. I'm not going to say there was definitely no "hounding" in December/January, but it has stopped and there is no cause for administrative action now. This is a collaborative project and one cannot demand to be the only editor on sports articles. Walsh90210 (talk) 04:11, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
• I agree with Walsh90210. This looks a lot more like common areas of interest where the two editors disagree often. Describing this diff as "he opposes me again at an AFD I voted keep, and the article was kept" as an example of hounding is particularly illustrative. Let'srun did not oppose Beaniefan11, they supported the deletion of the article based on valid policy arguments that other editors also provided. Beaniefan11 weakly supported keeping the article. Describing the article as being "kept" (and all that seeks to imply about Let'srun's motivations) is misleading, the deletion nomination was closed as "no consensus". BoldGnome (talk) 07:57, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

The editor interaction tool tells the same story: [286] The more I look at these interactions, the more innocent they become, and the more concerning this report becomes. It's just innocent content dispute after innocent content dispute after innocent content dispute. Most of the time Let'srun and Beaniefan don't even interact in any way. Assuming good faith regarding the filing of this report, I'd be more concerned about the "users of the past" fuelling these concerns via email. BoldGnome (talk) 12:16, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

• I haven't been impressed with Let'srun's various AfD nominations. His pre-AFD research is non-existent which is how he can nominate and tag 10+ articles per day. When given more sources for various nominated articles, he usually disqualifies the new sources or just stops replying. It turns the nomination process into a game that frustrates and annoys serious editors and makes clashes with people like Beanie inevitable. I think Let'srun's nominations privileges should be limited or restricted and it's clear that at some points in time he was likely targeting Beanie.KatoKungLee (talk) 18:08, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

  While I have already explained my tagging above (no worries if you missed it), and have no plans to continue tagging in that manner again due to its lack of effectiveness, I haven't nominated "10+ articles per day" to AfD once this year and don't plan on doing so going forward - [[287]]. I know you have had issues with my nominations before and took action to address them at that time [[288]]. I will look to do so again here if at all possible. I look to be respectful in discussing the sources provided in any discussion that I take part in and do not intend to play any type of game here. Let'srun (talk) 18:56, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

• My thoughts here's largely align with KatoKungLee's. In recent months, Let'srun has nominated a large number of categories for merging, many related to the topic of college football. He's continued to nominate lesser-populated categories with the same rationale as other nominations that have failed, again and again in a one-off manner, disregarding the value of parallelism in the category tree and failing to appreciate that many of these smaller categories relate to topics that are under active development. And he's not been responsive to rapid growth of such categories during the course of time that his nominations are open. What's most troubling is that Let'srun has been unwilling to engage meaningfully and collaborate with editors focused on college football and find a more pragmatic and stable approach to managing categories; see Wikipedia talk:WikiProject College football/Archive 26#Categories for deletion. His behaviour is indeed frustrating and annoying and I've described it in the past as time-wasting and obstructive. I've considered opening up an ANI notice myself about this. I don't think I can dig through everything that BeanieFan11 has assembled here, but the second AFD of Asim Munir (cricketer) in two months is not good. I think some sort of formal admonishment with a temporary of limiting of XfD privileges is in order here. Jweiss11 (talk) 19:37, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
• If some editors just can't see the evidence to support claims of egregious personal hounding and instead need to pivot to accusations of broad "AfD disruption", maybe comments of the latter flavor can go in a separate section. This would have the additional convenience of allowing us to examine AfD naughtiness in all its forms and to voice opinions like "a group of disaffected editors constantly disguising ILIKEIT arguments and deprecated guidelines as IAR !votes is not good" or "asserting AfD noms perform terrible BEFORE searches because they don't exhaustively search every non-English offline newspaper that could possibly have covered the subject, when per our guidelines there is explicitly no expectation any coverage exists for this subject, is not good". JoelleJay (talk) 21:38, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
• @Walsh90210, BoldGnome, KatoKungLee, Jweiss11, and JoelleJay: I realise I have probably formatted this poorly resulting in a difficult-to-read wall of text. As such, I re-organised the report and copied the more major and questionable actions to a new section. I don't think actions such as tagging for notability four completely unrelated football articles created by me in that order in a four-minute span, or then tagging seven articles in a row relating to me for notability just when the prior action had been questioned, or voting "delete" at AFDs I had voted "keep" minutes after each response to me at another discussion, or nominating nine football articles written by me for deletion in a month, with no others in between for the final 6/9, are "ordinary interactions". BeanieFan11 (talk) 22:17, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
• Comment I haven't examined all of BeanieFan11's examples but with previous disputes about hounding, it's important to look at the totality of diffs, not just one or two isolated incidents. As a regular closer of AFDs, it's not uncommon to find two editors who repeatedly butt heads over AFDs in a particular subject area. And it's also not rare for editors to go on a deletion binge of overnominating articles they find, flooding the daily log with many nominations of a similar kind which is frustrating to our regular AFD participants who want to handle each article discussion individually and carefully. Editors going on a nomination spree is a consistent problem we see periodically at AFDLand. I'm not making any judgment here as I've stated I haven't examined all of the diffs but this scenario seems very familiar to those editors who spend time reviewing AFD discussions. I hope this dispute can be resolved so as to retain both editors as they generally do good work. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 02:53, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Editing with a POV

I suspect @Yasarhossain07 of editing with a POV. I went through the user's edits from this year (largely excluding talk page edits), listing all 40 below for completeness. I believe there is a clear, overt bias and lack of neutrality in their edits. Prior to all of these edits, the user already had a history of personal attacks, during the discussion of which, others were already suspicious of Yasarhossain07 pushing a POV. If this is too much information, please let me know and I can curate this list.

1. Removed sourced content from Volga Tatars about the reduction of Tatar language studies in Russian public school, saying, "The article cited was misquoted" and that the content was not supported by the source. This is incorrect. It is supported by the source. In large, header-sized font: [289]
2. Added unsourced material about living people in Rauf & Faik, changing the origin of the duo from Azerbaijan to Russia, on the basis that their lyrics are in Russian and therefore they cannot be Azerbaijani: [290]
3. Removed content from a biography of a living person, Anna Asti, insisting the person is only Russian, per the fact that she has a Russian last name and ignoring that she was born in Ukrainian SSR: [291]
4. Inexplicably removed {{Citation needed}} from Paratrooper content about Soviet Airborne Forces: [292]
5. Added unsourced material to a biography of a living person, Aras Agalarov, again insisting the person is Russian, this time on the grounds that they live in Russia: [293]
6. Added unsourced material (personal commentary) to a biography of a living person, Gerhard Schröder: [294] and [295]
   1. The changes were reverted, and someone made a post on Yasarhossain07's talk page explaining Wikipedia's policy of neutrality, to which Yasarhossain07 responded, "How is it neutral? It doesn’t feel like a serious article when you smear the former Chancellor of Germany. This article has a serious Ukrainian bias," and then made a personal attack against the user: "A key board warrior is calling one of the greatest German leaders who helped Germany reunify a Russian puppet. Wikipedia is losing it’s credibility because of keyboard warriors having too much power." User talk:Yasarhossain07#March 2024
7. Removed sources and content regarding money laundering and fraud in Sheremetyevo International Airport, with a disingenuous edit summary saying the content was vandalism and unrelated to the topic: [296]
8. Added unsourced material to a biography of a living person, Arman Tsarukyan, again claiming they are Russian: [297]
9. Removed content from Russia in the Eurovision Song Contest regarding a song that was sung in both Ukrainian and Russian, insisting it was only in Russian. This is not factual, and naturally, the song is also immortalized in all its bilingual glory on YouTube: [298]
10. Removed infobox content from Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna of Russia regarding the dispute on her succession. The user claimed it's unsourced and that the Russian Orthodoxy Church is the final authority, therefore there are no disputes. There are, of course, disputes, and they are discussed in the article's body with citations provided (and here's another): [299]
    1. Similar issue as above, but in House of Romanov (however, the information was unsourced this time): [300] and [301]
11. Removed sourced content from Baltic Fleet regarding the Russian invasion of Ukraine, claiming, contrary to the references, "No official report or confirmation about the involvement of Baltic fleet in any possible way in the war in Ukraine." [302]
12. Unexplained removal of sources and content from United Russia regarding pro-Putin bias and inconsistency in the party's ideologies, replacing it with "[the party] still remains the most popular party in Russia." [303]
13. Removed content from Conservatism in Russia based on justifications that appear to be original research and personal opinion: [304], [305], and [306]
14. Unexplained removal of sourced content from Pulkovo Airport regarding a Ukrainian attack on a Russian oil refinery: [307]
15. Unexplained removal of sourced content from Great Stand on the Ugra River: [308]
16. Repeatedly adding unsourced content to BRICS, insisting Saudi Arabia had joined the organization, though they hadn't: [309], [310], and [311]
    1. The user eventually declared Wikipedia "the number one source of misinformation" and added outdated, incorrect sources as plaintext into the body: [312]
17. Added unsourced material to a biography of a living person, Farkhad Akhmedov, again claiming they are Russian: [313] and [314]
18. Removed sourced content from Azerbaijan–Russia relations about discrimination against Azerbaijani people in Russia (phrasing could be improved, but the source was a Russian journalist and political scientist): [315]
19. Added unsourced material to a biography of a living person, Sergei Skripal, claiming, "He is of Ukrainian decent." (A former Russian spy who acted as a double agent for the UK and was later convicted of high treason): [316]
20. Calling the Chechen National Army a 'terrorist' unit without supporting sources (units fight alongside Ukraine in Russia's invasion) [317]
21. Removed sourced content from Shamil Basayev regarding possible FSB responsibility in the person's death, claiming 'conspiracy theories' (the FSB themselves claimed responsibility): [318]
22. Removed sourced content from Alabuga Special Economic Zone regarding Russian drone development, justifying the removal with their own speculation or original research (or both): [319] and [320]

Skipped describing the following eight edits, as they appeared reasonable or could reasonably be mistakes, but provided them for completeness: [321], [322], [323], [324], [325], [326], [327], [328].

Thank you for any insights or responses. – Primium (talk) 03:54, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

I think Wikipedia has been completely trashed with fake news and misinformation. It’s a liberal left wing profits info war outlet like Elon Musk has already said. And it’s worse when it comes to Russia and India. Yasarhossain07 (talk) 04:34, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

@Yasarhossain07 Please hear me out. It's absolutely true that Wikipedia is biased, and, in my experience, often exhibits a notable Russophobic bias. If you want to do something about that, simply making the changes you feel are appropriate is not enough.

You must learn more about Wikipedia's policies, like WP:TERRORISM, WP:NOR, WP:NPOV, and WP:V, and then you have to work within them and reference them in your critiques.

If you read those policies, and others, carefully, and come to truly understand them (and the ongoing & historical debates about them), you might be able to do something constructive to address bias on Wikipedia.

If you don't study & apply those policies, I'm afraid that you will probably be banned soon. I don't want to see that happen, so I hope you consider what I have said. Philomathes2357 (talk) 04:45, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

I think Wikipedia has been completely trashed with fake news and misinformation. It’s a liberal left wing profits info war outlet like Elon Musk has already said.

This, sir, is what some of us call "digging your own grave." You're not exactly allaying Primium's POV concerns, and building a NOTHERE case against yourself. The Kip ^(contribs) 05:25, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

TheKip is quite correct. Your statement above shows quite clearly that you find it difficult to be neutral about these issues. I would advise you to stay away from these articles, otherwise you could be blocked from editing altogether. Deb (talk) 07:06, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

Editors regularly contribute in areas where they have a very obvious identifiable POV. The existence of a POV is not the issue here, IMO. Given that our treatment of Russia topics is widely acknowledged to exhibit anti-Russian bias, someone with a nominally pro-Russian POV would add diversity to the project and help counter systemic bias. If Wikipedia had a systemic anti-POC bias, we wouldn’t discourage POC or anti-racists from editing topics about race, just because they have a POV, would we?

The problem that led to this ANI thread is the complete lack of application of Wikipedia’s policies and guidelines, especially NOR and V. I hope this user will read my previous comment and seriously consider it, before it is too late. If they don’t express any interest in becoming a more rigorous editor, they will probably be banned, and that will probably be for the best. Hopefully they can turn things around and agree, sincerely, to do the necessary work to become a more thoughtful contributor. Philomathes2357 (talk) 18:24, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

Shamin Basaev’s killing has been clearly orchestrated by the FSB. Rest of it is unproven conspiracy theory. Chechen National army has committed multiple acts of terror in North Cacauss after losing the war against Russia so it’s a terrorist group. Yasarhossain07 (talk) 04:36, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

Unproven claim about Iran copying German design. Germany would’ve produced those drones and Ukraine would be using them against Russia. I think Wikipedia has a bias against Russia. How can Iran copy something from Germany without Germany ever making that product on their own? Speculative untouched gossip lowers the quality of articles. Yasarhossain07 (talk) 04:39, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

@Yasarhossain07, English Wikipedia is seen and written by a lot of people from the US, UK, and other country that has relatively bad relations with Russia. (ex. Japan, SK, etc...) It's pretty obvious how it's inevitable to have Wikipedia biased, especially with the international law breaking Russia has done since 21th century. Although you are welcome to fix the biased opinion to a more neutral point of view, that doesn't mean you get to ignore all policies, or that you get to rewrite it from your point of view. (You can remove statements that are unreferenced, however.) ABG (Talk/Report any mistakes here) 05:18, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

I believe there are two issues at play here. One is that the user indeed is trying to right perceived great wrongs and, to put it quite simply, I don't think there are many quicker ways to prove you're NOTHERE than quoting Elon Musk. His comments here and his disregard for the rules make it clear that a block is in order.

The other issue is that the user is not always wrong, and OP is misrepresenting some of his edits. For example, the user did not claim that Arman Tsarukyan was Russian, but that he was both Armenian and Russian, which he is. The situation with Farkhad Akhmedov is very similar. In fact, in both cases their Russian citizenship has been noted in the past, but was later removed. The same can be said of Agalarov (ethnic Azeri but Russian citizen) and Rauf & Faik.

He also has a point regarding Schröder. OP (rightly) raises BLP concerns, but I would argue that the main problem is that the first thing we are saying in wikivoice on that article is that Schröder is a lobbyist. Really? I would not replace it woth statesman, nor would I add that bit about it being normal for former chancellors to go work in the private sector (a truism if there ever was one), but seriously, former leader of a major party in Germany, long political career, 7 years as chancellor and the first thing in the lead, the thing that stands out, is that he is a lobbyist? I know it is fashionable to dunk on Schröder today, and to an extent he has earned it, but this is absurd.

TL;DR the reported editor has shown that he deserves a block, but some of his complaints have merit, ans it might be worth checking out what can be fixed. Ostalgia (talk) 06:48, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

I didn't mean to suggest Yasarhossain07 changed their nationalities to only Russian (except for Anna Asti, which I specified above). My concern was that it was further unreferenced additions, even if true, to these articles about living people. Those small changes in isolation wouldn't really appear contentious or problematic to me, but in the context of the whole, I think they contribute to a larger pattern of behaviour. As for Schröder, I don't know anything about the topic, but a separate user undid Yasarhossain07's actions and called it 'personal commentary.' Sorry, I should have made these clearer in my initial post. – Primium (talk) 16:18, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

If someone responds with personal attacks and rants about how right Elon Musk is about Wikipedia when someone points out issues with their obvious policy violating POV editing, they probably do not have the temparament to edit Wikipedia constructively. I support a block or ban from contentious topics, since there seems to be no sign of desire to improve. TylerBurden (talk) 18:40, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

• Comment Given that our treatment of Russia topics is widely acknowledged to exhibit anti-Russian bias, can I ask for reference on this "widely acknowledged" fact? There might be a anti-Russian tone in articles about the war in Ukraine but this is a sweeping statement presented as fact by several editors and I would like there to be some verification of a widespread bias they and others appear to perceive, in general, about articles on "Russian topics". I think that comments like these can't be made without being challenged or they can be seen to be accepted by others as true. Thank you. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 19:51, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
  • Bingo! It also implies that the bias is "editorial bias", something we do not allow. Editors are supposed to leave their biases at the door while editing, but they are also supposed to document what RS say, including the biases found in those RS. Since this is the English language Wikipedia, and most RS are in English, it would be natural to expect that English, primarily Western, sources, would tend to view Russia and its aggression in a negative light, and therefore our articles on such topics will naturally document that POV. This is just the "nature of the beast" for ALL different versions of Wikipedia. They will all display different, and even opposing, biases. Don't blame editors for that situation. In fact, if editors try to disguise, hide, or whitewash those POV and biases out of content, they are in violation of our NPOV policy. It is only "editorial" biases we keep out of content. Otherwise, sources and content are not required to be "neutral". -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 20:18, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

  By "widely acknowledged", I was mainly referring to the fact that multiple editors here, at this thread, have acknowledged it. I've also seen it acknowledged elsewhere at other venues. I'm happy to talk about anti-Russian bias with you, and you're free to ping me at my talk page if you want to have a deeper back-and-forth about that, but doing a deep-dive on that subject here at ANI may run afoul of WP:NOTFORUM.

  The user in question here is undeniably problematic and flirting with a ban, but he also has potential to be a good contributor, from what I see, and I'm trying to encourage him to quickly move in a more constructive, policy and source-based direction before it is too late.

  The main reason I said what I said about Russian bias is to sympathize with him, so he is more open to what I have said about learning PAG. - he is not crazy or delusional to think that anti-Russia bias is a problem - he's just not going about addressing it in the right way. Philomathes2357 (talk) 20:26, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

  This might not be an appropriate discussion to have in this discussion but saying things like he is not crazy or delusional to think that anti-Russia bias is a problem without any verification or reference that a bias exists is misleading. This is your personal opinion, no more than less than that of any editor who might disagree with you. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 02:05, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

  It is my opinion, sure. I'm not sure how it would be "misleading", unless you take the opposite view, namely, that it is crazy or delusional to think that there is systemic bias that affects articles about Russia. I assume you do take that view, otherwise you would not have taken the time to respond to my comment to @Yasarhossain07 and call it out for being misleading. That's obviously a-okay - we both have our opinions - and it's certainly a topic worthy of further discussion, but probably not here.

  It looks like this all comes down to whether or not YasarHossain issues a statement and publicly commits to carefully and soberly studying Wikipedia's PAG, earnestly trying to apply them to his edits, and accepting constructive criticism from others. If he does issue such a statement, I think he should stay. If he does not, he obviously needs to go. But I'm not even an admin, so it's not up to me - I'm going to disengage from this thread and let things play out. I've made my point to Yasar, and I hope he takes it seriously before the banhammer inevitably falls. Philomathes2357 (talk) 03:32, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

You have no idea what my view is, I haven't expressed it. All I said was that you shouldn't make sweeping asseertions of anti-Russian bias on Wikipedia as if this is commonly known without providing some verification that this is true. My protest is against unsupported generalizations about the state of Wikipedia, not whether or not the platform is pro-Russian or anti-Russian. You stated your opinion as if it was a widely known fact and I questioned that, that's all I was trying to point out. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 06:45, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

• Comment It’s a liberal left wing profits info war outlet like Elon Musk has already said. I'm not left wing, and I have a great time around here. Generally speaking, liberals are not left wing, but right wing moderates. tgeorgescu (talk) 21:22, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

• Indeed. I'd also add, though, that it's critical for the far-right that the simplicity of the property rights typology be poorly understood. But it is in fact quite simple. On the left: Communists (public ownership with little to no private), Social-Democrats (public ownership with some private). And on the right: Reform Liberals (private ownership with some public), Classical Liberals, aka 'Conservatives' in the US (private ownership with little to no public). Or at least so it goes wrt doctrine. But the reason, I suspect, the far-right wishes to obscure this is because they largely fall on the centre, but will always gravitate as right as possible in terms of sympathy (and conversely antipathy the more left one goes), due to greater prevalence of traditional systems of oppression, repression, suppression, etc., and other forms of stratification from when Kings ruled. Because for the far-right, bigotry is paramount. //Tangent over! El_C 03:24, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Guys, please remember this this is not a forum. – Primium (talk) 03:30, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Guys-this! Erm, probably a good call. ;) El_C 03:32, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

False accusations of meatpuppetry and violation of WP:ASPERSIONS

Obi2canibe Has made a number of false accusations on this AfD by falsely claiming that I am an Indian editor who has had no previous interaction with this article or any other Sri Lankan article, contrary to the fact that I edited a number of Sri Lankan articles before.[329]

Obi2canibe does not stop there but goes ahead to cast WP:ASPERSIONS by speculating nationalities of experienced editors as "Indians" (as if it is something bad, see WP:NONAZIS) and further demeans them as "meatpuppets" by saying "Same with his Indian friends CharlesWain, Orientls, Lorstaking, Pravega and Raymond3023. The only argument these meatpuppets can make for deleting the article is that it didn't happen."

I asked Obi2canibe to remove these personal attacks,[330] however, he has clearly ignored it and went ahead to edit the AfD without removing/striking the offensive comments.[331] Ratnahastin (talk) 15:14, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

While this doesn't excuse anyone else's behavior, you should not be calling (even blocked) editors rabid in that same AfD (see Wikipedia:Gravedancing). Chaotıċ Enby (talk · contribs) 15:29, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

• @El C: Can you take a look into this report? Thanks. Ratnahastin (talk) 01:23, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Blocked – for a period of one week: User talk:Obi2canibe#Block. I'll drop a note at the AfD as well. El_C 01:40, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

@El C: Thank you! Kindly also take a look at this comment by a user who never edited any AfD before[332] but wants to claim existence of "off-wiki coordination" by "North Indian users" after citing a totally irrelevant diff from 2017 together with the false claim that I and other "delete" supporters have "no prior editing in Sri Lankan topic", just like Obi2canibe was doing. Ratnahastin (talk) 02:11, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

@Ratnahastin: You are required to notify users when you start a discussion involving them here, this counts too. – 2804:F14:8085:6201:A43F:E4B1:D650:8276 (talk) 02:21, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

@Ratnahastin, what a bad faith move. Instead of notifying me that you took exception to it, you come directly here to get me sanctioned without once again notifying me? It was my mistake as a relatively new user to involve people's nationalities (which I've now corrected) but I wanted to bring it to admins' attention a suspicious activity that was going on. Also, I didn't accuse any user in particular of "off-wiki coordination" but suggested that admins look into POTENTIAL case of it.---Petextrodon (talk) 02:47, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

@El C, dear admin, am I allowed to report the user JohnWiki159 under this same report for falsely accusing me of "working as a group" with the now banned sockpuppets "to keep their point of view in the article", when in fact I had publicly challenged one of the puppet masters for reverting my edit?---Petextrodon (talk) 03:00, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

You are editing for more than 1.4 years as such you are not a new user. As far as I can see, there is clearly no "POTENTIAL case" of off-wiki coordination on other side because it involves experienced editors frequently editing for a long time. With your false accusations, you are not only assuming bad faith but also poisoning the well by citing a totally irrelevant diff from 2017 as basis and using same personal attacks as Obi2canibe. Can you tell your reasons why you are doing that? Ratnahastin (talk) 03:13, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

@Ratnahastin 2017 diff was not in reference to you but two other editors who voted. I had intended to mention you in reference to taking the same stance as other India topic editors but admittedly I worded it poorly. I do consider myself a relatively new user since each day I'm learning a new policy. I thought it important to mention nationality as that figures into potential sockpuppet or meatpuppet investigation, but after reading that admin's warning I will be more careful.----Petextrodon (talk) 03:21, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

I suppose you just did [report], Petextrodon...? I think it's best for disputants of either side in the dispute to refrain from making any un-evidenced statements that groups those editors together — unless there is real and actionable proof of prohibited influence, such as by way of WP:CANVASSING and WP:SOCK / WP:MEAT. Thanks. HTH. El_C 03:31, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

• El_C User Obi2canibe is a leading contributor in Sri Lankan articles and has edited from 2007 that is 17 years without a block with 54000 edits and further he has not received contentious article warning.Feel you should WP:AGF at the first instance for a long term contributor and 1 week is excessive for the first time.Pharaoh of the Wizards (talk) 05:50, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

  For a minor offence sure. For such xenophobic attacks frankly they should be glad they aren't indeffed. Frankly contentious topics doesn't even come in to it although the fact it is a contentious topic does mean an indef topic ban should definitely be considered the next time there's any similar nonsense if a site ban/indef isn't the result. If I saw a fellow Kiwi or fellow Malaysia talking about how someone is an Aussie or Indonesian who had never edited articles on New Zealand or Malaysia before; or about someone and their Australian/Indonesian friends, I'd fully support telling them to GTFO of Wikipedia, no matter what their good contributions or that there isn't a contentious topic covering New Zealand or Malaysia directly. Nil Einne (talk) 11:14, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

@Nil Einne if I happened to be Tamil and I saw someone WP:GASLIGHT and write Nobody recognizes any "Tamil Genocide" in an AFD nomination I certainly wouldn't be very happy about it. TarnishedPath^talk 11:45, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

TarnishedPath, there are ways to express that without repeatedly attacking other editors on an ethno-national basis. Which is not a thing that will be tolerated. Pharaoh of the Wizards, they are free to submit a normal unblock request as this was a regular admin action, not a WP:CTOP one (otherwise it'd be logged). Anyway, Nil is right and his views reflect my own. Also, AGF is not a shield or cure-all, certainly not for the paradox of tolerance, so on its flip-side there is WP:PACT. El_C 12:22, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

@El C, I agree that the blocked editor should not have gone off the deep end and engaged in racial attacks, however I can understand why someone might be very unhappy about what was written. TarnishedPath^talk 12:37, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

• There should be some sort of discussion of OPs genocide denial as found in their nomination at Special:Diff/1225378532 where they wrote Nobody recognizes any "Tamil Genocide". This is in my opinion is a form of hate speech to WP:GASLIGHT over the mass targeted killings of an ethnic minority. OP ironically raised WP:NOHATE as a weapon towards the other editor, however this equally applies to their conduct. TarnishedPath^talk 11:40, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

@TarnishedPath: No, it is not hate speech or genocide denial, and you need to tone down that rhetoric. It is a matter of legit debate whether to define it as such or not. While I think that AfD's opening is poor in a number of ways, you can't be that incendiary, also by extension to everyone on the delete camp. So I'm formally warning you, though am not logging it, to stop. Btw, my sense is that it probably should be defined as a genocide, but that's neither here nor there as my role here precludes me from weighing in on that. El_C 12:22, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

@El C advice taken. As far as I can tell the only reason that it's not recognised as a genocide by a lot of powerful nations is because of their desire to maintain good relationships with certain neighbour countries. There is a lot of reliable academic sources which calls it a genocide and often without attribution. TarnishedPath^talk 12:32, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

• El_C You have warned me here on ethno-national personalization .... but I meant "India" and 'Indian" to indicate unusual geographical grouping for the deletion of Tamil genocide which is very contentious. Ratnahastin quoted irrelevant similarity with WP:NONAZIS as, "experienced editors as "Indians" (as if it is something bad, see WP:NONAZIS)". Obi2canibe meant like me only to indicate unusual geographical grouping for the deletion of Tamil genocide. Ratnahastin and other editors are only trying something similar to Holocaust denial by denying when there are enough books discuss on Tamil genocide. Others should not think of your neutrality on which basis Ratnahastin pinged you when there are hundreds of other administrators and on which basis you blocked an experienced editor Obi2canibe for one week without giving prior warning in this sensitive topic while not even warning Ratnahastin for calling (even blocked) editors rabid in the AfD (violating Wikipedia:Gravedancing).Lustead (talk) 17:02, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Lustead, if you invoke Holocaust denial again, I will block you with immediate effect. And while I find your questioning my neutrality with no basis to be... questionable, you can't now turn your The nominator also an Indian editor, you too an Indian Editor [etc.] at the AfD into unusual geographical grouping here, which is also problematic without actionable proof of wrongdoing. Anyway, a warning was not something I felt was warranted, seeing as Obi2canibe's ethno-national targeting was most egregious. Final warning to tone it down considerably.

You also risk a Sri Lanka topic ban (WP:TBAN) under the WP:CT/SL sanctions regime if you're found to not be willing or able to conduct yourself with due moderation. A sanction that I increasingly lean on imposing. This of course doesn't mean that I think the opposing side conducted themselves optimally (far from it), but I already addressed that. Finally, their AfD opening that mentions rabid sock puppets — it was written prior to my block, so what gravedancing are you talking about? It might be best you take a breather from this topic and dispute, if you find it difficult to engage it dispassionately. Please give that serious consideration, because you are at the edge presently. There's no better time for you to take a step back as now. El_C 18:33, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Two years of persistent disruptive editing and vandalism by IP user

2601:580:C100:7BD0:99CD:59C8:E520:D7F9 (talk · contribs · (/64) · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) is the current IP that this editor, geolocated to Fort Lauderdale, Florida, USA, who has for at least two years been persistently vandalizing the list/disambiguation page Airi. I have left messages on their talk page consistently asking them to stop. I have asked that the page be protected (wasn't granted). User was permanently banned on several occasions ([333], [334], [335], [336]) but since it is an IP, they just spring back up. User removes references, categories, reverts edits, leaves bizarre claims in edit summary, or no edit summary. I have repeatedly asked the editor to stop, asked why why they persisted, and left warnings on their talk pages. I never receive engagement from them on their talk page(s). The user is convinced (or, has to be trolling at this point) that there are literally no women named Airi in Estonia, despite the references, the name having an official name day in Estonia, at least 13 women with the name to be notable enough to have Wikipedia articles on Estonian Wikipedia. The IP user has had warnings from other users for other disruptive editing as well over the years. This is very frustrating. ExRat (talk) 18:11, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

Well, I've protected that page for two weeks. I know that won't stop them permanently but it will give some immediate relief. I have tried to communicate with IP editors who make problematic edits but jump from IP address to IP address and I agree it is frustrating and just about impossible. I doubt that they even know there is a User talk page associated with an IP address and may not even be aware when their IP address changes. This isn't a long-term solution to the problem but I rarely ever have done a range block and am afraid of collateral damage (I don't want to take out all of Southern Florida). If an admin with more experience in that area wants to take that on, feel free. From examining two of their IP addresses, it seems like a lot of their other edits have been reverted while others were accepted so this primarily seems like a strange fixation on this page. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 19:33, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

Thank you, Liz. I appreciate your help. ExRat (talk) 19:42, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

I don't know about collateral, but the /64 has been blocked multiple times, the last one for 3 months, which expired on the 18th: Special:Log/block.

On the day they were blocked they had pretty similar summaries to what they have now [337], and they restarted editing about 1 hour after their range's block ran out...

All of that to say, I'm unconvinced that they don't know they have user talk pages, or at least that they didn't know they were blocked for 3 months. – 2804:F1...50:8276 (talk) 21:35, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

Maybe you don't want to assume it's safe to block either way, but it's worth noting that the 3 people who blocked that range are checkusers, so presumably they already evaluated that whatever possible collateral would happen (if any) is worth stopping the disruption (for those block lengths) - though I'm pretty sure a lot of admins just block the /64, because that is often assigned to a single router/location, before it changes. – 2804:F1...50:8276 (talk) 21:40, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

WP:NOTHERE user User:DisciplinedIdea

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

DisciplinedIdea has been doing some large edits to articles such as Universe and Teleology which are simply WP:OR and WP:PROFRINGE. Particularly their rejection that the term universe is defined, and edit summaries like:

Trigger warning for physicalists: but this retooling of the intro is entirely warranted

and following up discussions on the talk page with lengthy personal-attack laden rants which are, generally, not particularly comprehensible:

diff

diff

From how combative they are with everyone attempting to engage them (see their talk page, plenty of aspersions cast in there as well) and the low quality of their edits coupled with an insistence that they were in the right all along, I think this is a cut and dry WP:PROFRINGE WP:NOTHERE. In a 24 hour window they've been warned for disruptive editing and personal attacks, and have made it very clear they do not intend to listen to feedback

For now, it is you who is being disruptive and breaking site policy to silence me, and all but completely. I have to hear “universe, universe” every damn where, but you can’t even tolerate the tag “disputed.” (from user talk page)

address the substance or don’t lay your filthy hands on me (or anyone like me) again (second diff above)

Many of the historical edits do appear to have a bit of a word salad, prose, and/or citation issue, though some of them fall outside my ability to figure out their quality beyond some clarity issues which would fall outside the scope of an ANI. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 09:07, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

What DisciplinedIdea peddles is New Age mysticism, not science. tgeorgescu (talk) 09:17, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Indefinitely blocked. Enough time wasted on that. Daniel (talk) 09:30, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

WP:RUSUKR sanctions violation

Unfam (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) - non-EC edits of 25 May 2024 Kharkiv missile strikes page [338], [339] despite warnings [340] , [341] , [342] . Non constructive comments with personal attacks in talk [343] [before the warning]. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 10:40, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

• All I want is for a single video that proves russian claims about hypermarket used as an ammo storage being either linked or uploaded, in any way you like. It is as constructive as it can be. Also, I don't understand how it is a personal attack. Unfam (talk) 10:48, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

  Two (arguably three if you include a typo fix) clear bright-line breaches of RUSUKR, as well as a brand new editor wading in calling another editor a "hypocrite" in a CT area talk page. I think we have generally viewed this pretty dimly? Daniel (talk) 12:39, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

  I might be wrong, but deleting evidence in favour of one side or another due to, in my opinion, personal bias, is much worse than anything I ever did. Unfam (talk) 13:55, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

• Have indefinitely ECP-ed the article per sanctions. No comments on the content, removed or otherwise, have yet to evaluate those. – robertsky (talk) 13:35, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
• Yet another weaponization of ANI. This is a recurring pattern from ManyAreasExpert. He has already weaponized it against me some 2 or 3 times, as Cinderella157 will probably remember. MAE seems to use all his knowledge, including Wikipedia policies knowledge, to corner and tilt people into making mistakes and rash decisions/comments. Almost as if he laid a trap. I think this is a much bigger problem than a new editor's attempt to edit and balance a contentious page section in good faith. Look, Unfam was very constructive in that talk page discussion and clearly tried to make careful and balanced suggestions of edits, which I thought were reasonable and implemented them myself to represent the Russian POV. It all changed when MAE stepped in.

Why do people seem to loose their minds when interacting with MAE, me included sometimes? Probably because he recurrently uses the theme/narrative of Russian propaganda, Russian unreliable sources, Russian misinformation, Russian war crimes, Western MSM is more reliable, there is no Western propaganda, there is no Ukrainian propaganda, Ukrainian officials can say whatever they want in Western sources and that is always considered superior to whatever the Russians say in Telegram, etc. This kind of argument is infuriating since it's already very difficult to show/represent the Russian POV in anything without the typical Western negative labels. Many Russian sources are already blacklisted and, often, one must translate the allowed sources to find the relevant info. Covering the other (Ukrainian/Western) POV, on the other hand, is so much easier and less stressful. Just Google anything and you'll be almost ensured to be flooded with English anti-Russian articles with varying degree of Russophobia. Why am I saying all this? To show how tense and one-sided this whole RUSUKR debate is, and to show how frustrating it is when we're spat with the "Russian propaganda" argument whenever we try to voice their POV.

But this would be the first step of the trap. As the other editor is getting triggered, MAE counteracts with edits using notoriously pro-Ukrainian/pro-Western sources, injects unfavorable background only to one side, injects wikilinks that are flooded with unfavorable content towards one side, etc. Then, in the heat of the argument, he warns about sanctions and civility as he goes all soft, complaining that being called a "hypocrite" is a PA (which it kinda is, but give me a break, look at what you do. does it actually hurt because you know it's true? or was is legitimately offensive?). By the way, Unfam's retraction and response was quite concerted afterwards; good! However, within those hot minutes Unfam made a technical mistake of directly editing a sanctioned page while I was away. And now the "witch hunt" is on...

And just a few days ago, MAE potentially tried to bait me in a related article talk page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:2024_Kharkiv_offensive#Losses_claims_in_the_infobox. He contested one of my recent edits here; I then boldly reverted it mostly based on the POV argument he used (that you can't put Ukrainian and Russian claims side by side because Ukrainian claims are much more 'accurate' in his mind), despite me knowing better arguments in favor of MAE's edit (i.e. that the claims span different time intervals, thus kinda apples to oranges); he then warns me of a policy; I then read it and understood he was right and his tone was fine, then I basically retracted my revert here and pretty much conceded in the talk page here with the OK emoji, dispute should be mostly solved; however, he then poked/baited me with this sarcastic comment, trying to act all tough and superior as if he was in a position to demand submission. I didn't fall for it, fortunately. Or, alternatively, he simply didn't understand my comment and saw the talk page before the article and consequently wouldn't see the retraction edit. Anyways, more and more tension which never occurred, for example, with Super Dromaeosaurus in Talk:2024 Kharkiv offensive#War crimes and misconduct (look at the difference in tone of the dispute resolution).

Concluding, I wanted to formally request that MAE be prevented from opening new ANI tickets against editors when attempting to solve contentious content disputes, especially when only MAE is showing concern in the talk page and especially during the early stages of discussion (it was literally a discussion of a few minutes and MAE was already potentially asking for sanctions/restrictions on this editor). This request also accounts that MAE has systematically made content edits that, afaik, exclusively favor the Ukrainian POV in the past. And also considering that MAE seemingly abuses the enforcement of Wikipedia policies without good intent, i.e. in a mission to corner and intimidate whoever attempts to represent/voice the actual Russian POV in articles.

As for Unfam, he has already been plenty warned and has shown understanding and restraint. Alexis Coutinho (talk) 13:40, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

This is contentious topic. Asked to adhere to Wikipedia rules, you gave no affirmative response [344] and continued [345] adding anonymous tg channels as sources. Removing reliable sources at the same time [346] . You did the same before - User talk:Alexiscoutinho#May 2024 - propaganda telegram in contentious topics . Stop using tg channels and Russian state media as sources, stop equating POVs reported by reliable sources with propaganda reported by Russian state sources, stop attacking the opponent when asked to adhere to Wikipedia rules, and everything will be fine. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 13:53, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

But meduza isn't a reliable source. Unfam (talk) 14:03, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

So you are adding anon tg channels to the article [347] , and are saying that Meduza is not reliable. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 14:09, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Meduza is a reliable source. Ymblanter (talk) 16:42, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

you gave no affirmative response what?! how is "OK" and an effective retraction edit in the article not an affirmative response? Your sarcastic question was provocative. Did you really want me to "lick your boots"? and continued adding why the "and" connection here? I contributed by adding a missing POV, and was even thanked for it. Even though the execution wasn't ideal, the intention was fine. Removing reliable sources at the same time Don't distort this, I removed blatant POV pushing, like you did in that mini Aftermath section of the battle of Bakhmut, and I would remove it again if I could go back in time. Even pro-Ukrainian Super Dro acknowledged that those wikilinks were a stretch. You did the same before the situations were completely different, and as I explained above, the intent of the latest episode was fine. Russian state media as sources I'm still not sold on the reasoning behind a blanket rejection. stop equating POVs reported by reliable sources with both POVs were reported by reliable sources as you showed. with propaganda reported by Russian state sources this is just your POV leaking through; doesn't even try to hide the lack of acknowledgement of Western and Ukrainian propaganda. stop attacking the opponent when asked to adhere to Wikipedia rules, and everything will be fine. well, one gets what one sows. Whenever you base your concerns/disputes on one-sided propaganda claims, you'll get unconstructive discussions. Give neutral comments/requests, like you sometimes do, and we'll actually get somewhere without wasting arguments. The same applies to other editors: don't expect them to be all cooperative when you start calling the shots, deleting stuff, substituting it with oppositely biased sources, calling the other's info propaganda and then threatening through ANI. Alexis Coutinho (talk) 15:57, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

he recurrently uses the theme/narrative of ... there is no Western propaganda, there is no Ukrainian propaganda, ...
This is plain wrong. Please limit the user from making such false accusations. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 14:05, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Don't worry, ManyaAreasExpert, I won't do this any more. I've made you stop vandalasing the article with your edits, and stopped you from hiding the evidence. Now the page is locked, so nothing can be changed. Even though there is still no video linked or uploaded, as I asked, but at least it is mentioned. This is the best anyone could do, with people like you around. Now you can continue crying about personall

attacks or what not, I won't bother you any more. Unfam (talk) 14:16, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Do you want me to retract that? Because I never saw you acknowledging those. Therefore, it appeared like so. Did I get carried away? Alexis Coutinho (talk) 16:01, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

You are making false accusations because I haven't acknowledged something you think I should? Please stop discussing editors, this is not constructive and is a WP:PA: Comment on content, not on the contributor. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 16:34, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Comment on content, not on the contributor Well, this whole thread started with a "comment on contributor" when it was actually mostly based on a content dispute... And yeah, this discussion has been pretty milked already. Alexis Coutinho (talk) 16:43, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

this whole thread started with a "comment on contributor"
This is not true. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 16:45, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Indeed they misrepresented a particular source to push a particular POV.[348] I am not sure if this is due to a poor understanding of English but this is not the first time. Mellk (talk) 15:46, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Where is the misrepresentation? ManyAreasExpert (talk) 15:49, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Moser does not say that it should be called Old Ukrainian. The alt name is already well established, therefore calling it anachronistic in wikivoice based on one person's opinion is the very definition of POV pushing. Mellk (talk) 15:53, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Moser does not say that it should be called Old Ukrainian
... and Moser did said what?
is the very definition of POV pushing
... but your initial claim was about misinterpretation. Should we abandon it, and discuss the new claim instead? ManyAreasExpert (talk) 15:59, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

In the quote you provided (shown in the diff), he refers to Old East Slavic and mentions the term Old Ukrainian if Old East Slavic "can deliberately be given an anachronistic name". If you cannot understand what the source says, then this raises concerns. Mellk (talk) 16:07, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

That's the correct representation of Moser. Note how the quote was added with my edit to avoid any misinterpretation.

Now, where is the misinterpretation? ManyAreasExpert (talk) 16:11, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

He did not say that Old Ukrainian is how the language should be called (i.e. this should be included as an alt name), and other editors said the same thing on the article talk page. So, this is just you who misunderstood what he said. Again, for such edits, WP:CIR applies, and it is clear from your other edits that you do not have a good enough command of the English language. Mellk (talk) 16:14, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

... but Moser did said that "Old Russian" is anachronistic, and that's what my edit was. Moser did also said that compared to anachronistic Old Russian, Old Ukrainian is more appropriate, and that's what my edit was. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 16:21, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

I have just told you that Old Russian is a well established name and this is supported in the rest of the article, you changed this to "anachronistic" based on one person's opinion, while you included the term "Old Ukrainian" as an alt name as the "more appropriate" name for Old East Slavic. We are just going in circles here so I will leave it at that. Mellk (talk) 16:24, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Not "more appropriate" then Old East Slavic. More appropriate then Old Russian, supported by Moser. Provided with quote to avoid misinterpretation. Where is the misinterpretation here. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 16:29, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

User:Zo world and WP:NPOV

The editor @Zo world: has been around for a year or so, and only edits in relation to tribes in the Indian state of Nagaland; particularly, anything relating to the Kuki people. I initially spotted this when they kept inflating the number of speakers at Thadou language ([349] [350] [351] [352] [353] [354] [355] [356]) over a period of months, despite being reverted and asked to provide sources numerous times by various different editors (as seen in the page history: [357]), but their contribution history reveals a consistent pattern of adding unsourced claims, inflating the prominence of some tribes over others, or removing sourced claims ([358] [359] [360] [361] - there are many, many other examples like this in their contribution history). They've been asked to stop numerous times on their talkpage by several editors, but haven't responded to any of them, so I've had no choice but to report them here. As a side point, they've also started marking all of their edits as minor since around June 2023, which I suspect is an attempt to hide what they're doing from other users. Theknightwho (talk) 18:43, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

While their "minor edits" deception and their manipulation of content are reprehensible, their complete failure to communicate shows they have no desire to collaborate and are therefore WP:NOTHERE. Block needed. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 19:05, 28 May 2024 (UTC)