Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard

"WP:DRN" redirects here. For the "Deny Recognition" essay, see WP:DNR.

Welcome to the dispute resolution noticeboard (DRN)

This is an informal place to resolve small content disputes as part of dispute resolution. It may also be used as a tool to direct certain discussions to more appropriate forums, such as requests for comment, or other noticeboards. You can ask a question on the talk page. This is an early stop for most disputes on Wikipedia. You are not required to participate, however, the case filer must participate in all aspects of the dispute or the matter will be considered failed. Any editor may volunteer! Click this button to add your name! You don't need to volunteer to help. Please feel free to comment below on any case. Be civil and remember; Maintain Wikipedia policy: it is usually a misuse of a talk page to continue to argue any point that has not met policy requirements. Editors must take particular care adding information about living persons to any Wikipedia page. This may also apply to some groups. Noticeboards should not be a substitute for talk pages. Editors are expected to have had extensive discussion on a talk page (not just through edit summaries) to work out the issues before coming to DRN. Do you need assistance? Would you like to help? Request dispute resolution If we can't help you, a volunteer will point you in the right direction. Discussions should be civil, calm, concise, neutral, objective and as nice as possible. This noticeboard is for content disputes only. Comment on the contributions, not the contributors. Off-topic or uncivil behavior may garner a warning, improper material may be struck-out, collapsed, or deleted, and a participant could be asked to step back from the discussion. We cannot accept disputes that are already under discussion at other content or conduct dispute resolution forums or in decision-making processes such as Requests for comments, Articles for deletion, or Requested moves. The dispute must have been recently discussed extensively on a talk page (not just through edit summaries) to be eligible for help at DRN. The discussion should have been on the article talk page. Discussion on a user talk page is useful but not sufficient, because the article talk page may be watched by other editors who may be able to comment. Discussion normally should have taken at least two days, with more than one post by each editor. Ensure that you deliver a notice to each person you add to the case filing by leaving a notice on their user talk page. DRN has a notice template you can post to their user talk page by using the code shown here: {{subst:drn-notice}}. Be sure to sign and date each notice with four tildes (~~~~). Giving notice on the article talk page in dispute or relying on linking their names here will not suffice. Do not add your own formatting in the conversation. Let the moderators (DRN Volunteers) handle the formatting of the discussion as they may not be ready for the next session. Follow moderator instructions There will be times when the moderator may issue an instruction. It is expected of you to follow their instruction and you can always ask the volunteer on their talk page for clarification, if not already provided. Examples are about civility, don't bite the newcomers, etc. If you need help: If you need a helping hand just ask a volunteer, who will assist you. This is not a court with judges or arbitrators that issue binding decisions: we focus on resolving disputes through consensus, compromise, and advice about policy. For general questions relating to the dispute resolution process, please see our FAQ page. Become a volunteer We are always looking for new volunteers and everyone is welcome. Click the volunteer button above to join us, and read over the volunteer guide to learn how to get started. Being a volunteer on this page is not formal in any respect, and it is not necessary to have any previous dispute resolution experience. However, having a calm and patient demeanor and a good knowledge of Wikipedia policies and guidelines is very important. It's not mandatory to list yourself as a volunteer to help here, anyone is welcome to provide input. Volunteers should remember: Volunteers should gently and politely help the participant fix problems. Suggest alternative venues if needed. Try to be nice and engage the participants. Volunteers do not have any special powers, privileges, or authority in DRN or in Wikipedia, except as noted here. Volunteers who have had past dealings with the article, subject matter, or with the editors involved in a dispute which would bias their response must not act as a volunteer on that dispute. If any editor objects to a volunteer's participation in a dispute, the volunteer must either withdraw or take the objection to the DRN talk page to let the community comment upon whether or not the volunteer should continue in that dispute. Listed volunteers open a case by signing a comment in the new filing. When closing a dispute, please mark it as "closed" in the status template (see the volunteer guide for more information), remove the entire line about 'donotarchive' so that the bot will archive it after 48 hours with no other edits. Open/close quick reference To open, replace {{DR case status}} with {{DR case status|open}} To close, replace the "open" with "resolved", "failed", or "closed". Add {{DRN archive top|reason=(reason here) ~~~~}} beneath the case status template, and add {{DRN archive bottom}} at the bottom of the case. Remember to remove the DoNotArchive bit line (the entire line).

Case		Created		Last volunteer edit		Last modified
Title	Status	User	Time	User	Time	User	Time
Naseem Hamed	Closed	Mac Dreamstate (t)	13 days, 20 hours	Robert McClenon (t)	1 days, 18 hours	Robert McClenon (t)	1 days, 18 hours
White Zimbabweans	In Progress	Katangais (t)	3 days, 16 hours	Robert McClenon (t)	1 days, 18 hours	Robert McClenon (t)	1 days, 18 hours
Bernese Mountain Dog	In Progress	Traumnovelle (t)	3 days, 10 hours	Robert McClenon (t)	1 days, 19 hours	Traumnovelle (t)	1 days, 6 hours
Macarons	Closed	62.211.155.242 (t)	2 days, 1 hours	Robert McClenon (t)	1 days, 19 hours	Robert McClenon (t)	1 days, 19 hours

If you would like a regularly-updated copy of this status box on your user page or talk page, put {{DRN case status}} on your page. Click on that link for more options.
Last updated by FireflyBot (talk) at 03:46, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

Current disputes

Naseem Hamed

– General close. See comments for reasoning.

Filed by Mac Dreamstate on 13:35, 27 May 2024 (UTC).

Closed discussion

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Naseem Hamed (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) Users involved Mac Dreamstate (talk · contribs) ActionHeroesAreReal (talk · contribs) Abo Yemen (talk · contribs) JFHJr (talk · contribs) Jahalive (talk · contribs) The MK (talk · contribs) GoodDay (talk · contribs) Dispute overview There is an impasse on how to describe, in the lead section, this boxer who was born in the UK, has only ever resided in the UK, and has only competed under a British boxing licence. He has Yemeni parents, which may qualify him for citizenship by descent. Various MOS have been invoked: MOS:ETHNICITY, MOS:IDENTITY, WP:NPOV, and WP:WEIGHT. In the boxing world and Western mainstream media, he is primarily notable as a British boxer; in the Arab world, his Yemeni heritage is heavily emphasised. There are numerous reliable Western sources which describe him as solely British, and some Arab sources (of varying reliability) which describe him as Yemeni. Hamed self-describes as "British-Yemeni" or "Yemeni" on social media, and did so during his career by means of Yemeni flags and other symbology. Extensive discussion at the talk page has resulted in a three vs three dispute on how to word the lead section: "British professional boxer", "British-Yemeni professional boxer", or "British professional boxer of Yemeni descent". How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here? Talk:Naseem Hamed#British / British-Yemeni How do you think we can help resolve the dispute? Assist us in deciding how to describe Hamed in the opening sentence of the lead section, and whether it needs to be dealt with on a case-by-case basis or per the abovementioned MOS'es. Summary of dispute by ActionHeroesAreReal Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker. Summary of dispute by Abo_Yemen Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker. Summary of dispute by JFHJr Greetings. I am a WP:BLPN volunteer and have participated in talkpage discussion but never edited this article. Because the subject identifies as Yemeni as supported by at least one reliable reference, I'm comfortable with that self-identification appearing anywhere in the article. I'm also of the position that WP:BLP and related either outweigh WP:MOS concerns or present a defensible position to WP:IAR. I do believe an identity datum as basic as this merits reasonable WP:WEIGHT. I do not agree with disputing its presence in the lede, even if it's worth exactly one mention in the body. Otherwise, I'd comment of the overall dispute that concerns stated and implied on the talkpage regarding chauvinism (countries claiming a champion) are themselves inherently chauvinistic. I'm not from either one. I have no committed preference for how this is resolved other than finding a resolution. Ta. JFHJr (㊟) 01:47, 28 May 2024 (UTC) PS. If it aids resolution in this matter, I'm willing to walk-back my concerns (see talkpage) about Variety, iff the only thing used is identity/ethnicity. First, see WP:RSNP for the safety indicator. Second, this is tantamount to a safe WP:BLPSPS for the sole purpose used. This is actually an innocuous matter, despite the back and forth. Cheers. JFHJr (㊟) 03:05, 28 May 2024 (UTC) Summary of dispute by Jahalive Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker. Summary of dispute by The_MK First of all, contrary to the dispute overview, it was mentioned that only some (which are Arab) sources mentioned “Yemeni” or “British-Yemeni”, this is false, 3 sources (which are [1], [2], [3]) inserted in the discussion has stated “British-Yemeni” or has mentioned him being of Yemeni heritage and are not Arab sources at all, and are in-fact mostly western, with only two sources provided being Arab. For the summary of dispute, I’ve inserted several sources that prove the notability of Naseem’s Yemeni heritage, with him identifying as a Yemeni, and raising the Yemeni flag in a lot of his fights, and other acts of emphasis and symbology of him being Yemeni. All of this makes him being Yemeni/of Yemeni origins notable to his identity, and hence as per WP:ETHNICITY we would have to mention both British and Yemeni, because if not, that would be a violation of WP:NPOV as we are only taking into consideration him being British only, even if being Yemeni is as or more notable to his identity. At first I supported “British-Yemeni” in the lede but for more clarity, we should say “British professional boxer of Yemeni heritage” as we can’t confirm him having only one citizenship as per Yemeni naturalization law, he was always qualified for citizenship by descent (as both his parents are Yemeni), also using “British professional boxer of Yemeni heritage” allows us to include sources for both “British” and “Yemeni”. |MK| 📝 Naseem Hamed discussion Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary. First statement by volunteer (Naseem Hamed) I am ready to act as the moderator for this dispute. It appears that there is a dispute over what to say the subject's nationality is. Are there any other content issues? Please read DRN Rule A, and indicate whether you are willing to take part in moderated discussion in accordance with the rules. Please state, in one paragraph, what you think should be listed as the subject's nationality, and why that should be listed as his nationality. It appears that we may have to use an RFC. If anyone has any suggestions for compromise in place of an RFC, please provide the suggestion now. Robert McClenon (talk) 05:08, 30 May 2024 (UTC) First statements by editors (Naseem Hamed) Are there any other content issues? Nationality yes. Things like the adjective and the flag might (probably) point equally to ethnicity and heritage. This wider scope captures more of the nuance per talkpage discussions and proposed citations. I don't think this has rabbit-holed too far into nationality in the legal sense, nor citizenship. It's akin to asking how "Italian-American" an athlete would be, first generation (and flying the Italian flag, and who has self-described as Italian in a non-self-serving claim). Thank you Robert McClenon! JFHJr (㊟) 05:28, 30 May 2024 (UTC) My main argument was the notability of his Yemeni heritage, which I believe has been proven, and hence we have to say “British professional boxer of Yemeni heritage” so that it can conform to WP:ETHNICITY, and if we just say “British” in the lede that would be a violation of that policy. About self description, first of all all that was provided was not a self-published source, but a source that shared what he said, second of all, there are multiple sources (in my dispute summary, that were in the talk page of Naseem’s article) inserted that mention his Yemeni heritage, hence we would be able to cite both “British” and “Yemeni heritage”. |MK| 📝 21:35, 30 May 2024 (UTC) Having given it some thought, I'm willing to compromise solely in favour of "British professional boxer of Yemeni descent" if an equal ratio of Western and Arab-centric sources are presented at the end of that sentence. I remain opposed to "British-Yemeni", as it breaks too far with WP's own MOSes and implies in WP's voice that he is a dual Yemeni resident, when he certainly is not. Mac Dreamstate (talk) 14:56, 1 June 2024 (UTC) How do you get specifically to residency from the adjective? Nobody is talking about where he lives. JFHJr (㊟) 15:48, 1 June 2024 (UTC) That's just how I would interpret WP's voice as a reader. That he must've be a citizen and thereby a resident at some point. By keeping them at separate ends of the lead, it states that as of right now he's a British subject first and foremost, which is how the boxing world knows him. Mac Dreamstate (talk) 16:30, 1 June 2024 (UTC) That’s the thing, he always had the option to gain a Yemeni citizenship, however we can’t confirm weather he has it or not, hence “British professional boxer of Yemeni descent” is a suitable option. I also have no problems with “British-Yemeni”. As I said, we would be able to cite both “British” and “of Yemeni descent” separately. It also complies with WP’s policies more than just “British” as stated above, we would also be able to do the same with “British-Yemeni”. |MK| 📝 18:09, 1 June 2024 (UTC) I'm also fine with the periphrastic wording. Let's resolve this! JFHJr (㊟) 18:34, 1 June 2024 (UTC) I thought this was settled. He's British. GoodDay (talk) 22:21, 1 June 2024 (UTC) Second statement by volunteer (Naseem Hamed) Is the question only about what to say in the lede sentence? Is there also a question about the body of the article? I am also asking each editor, again, what do you want listed in the lede sentence as his nationality and ethnicity, and why that is how it should be listed. If you have already answered this question, please answer it again. Robert McClenon (talk) 04:39, 1 June 2024 (UTC) Second statements by editors (Naseem Hamed) I think it's already described and reffed sufficiently in the body. I think "British-Yemeni" is just fine for the lede based on the body (reffed) and the subject's own identity. The Variety ref that I previously opposed and now feel ok about might help. JFHJr (㊟) 05:05, 1 June 2024 (UTC) No problems with that. |MK| 📝 18:17, 1 June 2024 (UTC) I am willing to take part in the discussion following Wikipedia:DRN Rule A. I think his nationality should be described as British. MOS:ETHNICITY explains that when "the person is notable mainly for past events" as Mr. Hamed is, the country "where the person was ... when they became notable" should be in the opening paragraph. He lived, trained and competed mostly in the UK. He has not lived, trained or competed in Yemin. The same section of the MOS also says "Ethnicity, ... should generally not be in the lead unless relevant to the subject's notability." His ethnicity is not relevant to his notability. I don't think there is any dispute about the body of the article.--Jahalive (talk) 22:01, 1 June 2024 (UTC) First of all it’s spelled "Yemen", second of all, we’ve already proved the notability of him being Yemeni, the main discussion is weather we say “British professional boxer of Yemeni descent” or “British-Yemeni”. |MK| 📝 07:31, 2 June 2024 (UTC) If you didn’t catch up on the discussion, please do. |MK| 📝 07:49, 2 June 2024 (UTC) Third statement by volunteer (Naseem Hamed) Did you read DRN Rule A in detail? Rule A.9 says: Do not engage in back-and-forth discussion to statements by other editors; that is, do not reply to the comments of other editors. Maybe I should move it closer to the top. I have prepared a draft RFC in Talk:Naseem Hamed/RFC on Ethnicity. Please review it and comment on it. Do not vote on it yet, because it isn't active. After we agree on it, I will move it to the talk page and activate it by pulling out the deactivating things. Are there any other questions? Robert McClenon (talk) 17:50, 4 June 2024 (UTC) This RFC has been posted to the two RFC categories. Did you intend for this to happen yet?- Jahalive (talk) 19:12, 4 June 2024 (UTC) Third statements by editors (Naseem Hamed) It looks good. I think those are the three options that have been disputed.--Jahalive (talk) 19:19, 4 June 2024 (UTC) Fourth statement by volunteer (Naseem Hamed) After some complication, the RFC is now running. If there are no further questions, I will close this thread. Are there any other questions? Robert McClenon (talk) 23:45, 6 June 2024 (UTC) Fourth statements by editors (Naseem Hamed) The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

White Zimbabweans

– Discussion in progress.

Filed by Katangais on 16:47, 6 June 2024 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• White Zimbabweans (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Jamessumnergoodwin (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

This concerns the population estimates in the infobox of White Zimbabweans, which have been continually updated with figures that are either unsourced or attributed to a series of phone and door-to-door interviews conducted by another contributor as part of an unpublished research project. Specifically the addition of a population estimate of 55,000 white people resident in Zimbabwe.

This has been going on since late March, and I have continually disputed these additions for insufficient source information or original research. The subject has been broached on the article talk page as well as on the user talk page of the sole named contributor responsible (the rest are IP edits which have been pretty consistently reverted). This individual states he is a credentialed expert on the subject matter and qualified to speak with authority on the current population figures. He also agreed that he is willing to participate in a mediated dispute resolution process.

I understand that extensive discussion is usually required on the talk page of the article, but I have received no response to my concerns as expressed there. There is an topic on the talk page for this issue which was started on May 3, and it has received only two comments - one by myself and another by an unregistered IP. None of the other contributors involved, either those adding the new unsourced figures or those reverting it, have participated in the discussion there. To get the attention of the other contributor, I have had to contact them directly on their personal user talk.

Since the other contributor seems happy to participate in the mediation process, and nobody else has engaged with the discussion started on the article talk page, I would like to request that an exception be made to the general rule that "extensive" discussion needs to have taken place on the article talk page first. We have tried that; the talk page discussion has been ignored for over a month while the additions continue.

How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

• Talk:Zimbabwe#Total Population (discussion topic opened May 3, only two comments due to lack of engagement)
• User talk:Jamessumnergoodwin#55,000 figure on White Zimbabweans (as a last resort, discussion carried directly to user talk on May 12)

How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

Clarify whether the added information in question is original research, and appropriate to remain on the article or not. Perhaps clarify the policy on reliable sources vis-a-vis experts with credentials on the subject matter as well.

Summary of dispute by Jamessumnergoodwin

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

White Zimbabweans discussion

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.

• Volunteer Note - One of the reasons why thee should be discussion at the article talk page is to see whether third party editors comment. I have copied your discussion from the user talk page to the article talk page. Please continue discussion at the article talk page long enough to see whether any other registered editors comment. I will expect each of you to state concisely, so as to jump-start any moderated discussion, exactly what you want to change in the article (and where in the article), or what you want to leave the same that another editor wants to change. Please continue discussion on the article talk page. I am neither opening nor closing this case at this time. Robert McClenon (talk) 00:02, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

Zeroth statement by moderator (White Zimbabweans)

I don't know whether I will be opening this case for moderated discussion, because it appears that one of the editors is not making use of the article talk page. However, I am asking for preliminary statements. Please read DRN Rule A and state whether you agree to follow these rules. The purpose of moderated discussion, like the purpose of other editing activities, is to improve the encyclopedia, so I will ask each editor what they want to change in the article, or what they want to leave the same that the other editor wants to change. If there is a question about the reliability of sources, we will ask the reliable source noticeboard for guidance.

If there are questions about policies, including about the reliable source policy, please ask them here.

Article talk pages exist for discussion of how to improve the article. I am asking each editor why they think that this dispute should be resolved at DRN rather than on the article talk page. If you have not used the article talk page, please explain why you have not used the article talk page.

I will open this dispute for moderated discussion if I think that this dispute will benefit from moderated discussion, after trying to understand why there has not been discussion on the article talk page. Robert McClenon (talk) 15:16, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

Bernese Mountain Dog

– Discussion in progress.

Filed by Traumnovelle on 23:10, 6 June 2024 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Bernese Mountain Dog (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Traumnovelle (talk · contribs)
• User:7&6=thirteen

Dispute overview

The dispute is over this [4] diff, whether sources meet WP:V, and considering NPOV/DUE how many sources should be listed for life expectancy claims.

How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

Talk:Bernese_Mountain_Dog#Reliability, as well as in other talk page discussions.

How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

Provide consensus on the changes, choose a version to work off, and decide what sources are suitable for inclusion as currently it is one editor against another (third opinion declined this).

Summary of dispute by 7&6=thirteen

The issue is in the LONGEVITY section, not the HEALTH section.
The real dispute is about how long Bernese Mountain Dogs live.
The sources are independent and reliable. He keeps cutting text and references. User:Traumnovelle doesn't like the results. The disputed sources are corroborative of the professional studies. He has been WP:Edit warring over it.
There is a continuing and ongoing discussion at the article talk page. I am awaiting a consensus there. I will not address the needless personal attack other than to cite WP:Civil and WP:SAUCE. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 14:01, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Traumnovelle

Due to multiple issues with 7&6=thirteen's edits such as using self-published sources, synthesis, etc. I decided that when I had the time I would sit down, review every health claim in the article, see if the source was reliable for the claim, and if not look for alternate sources. I spent an hour or two doing this. Even ignoring the issues with synthesis and verifiability and focusing on the sources that are RS, they undue: the studies I removed were two decade outdated kennel club surveys with noticeably smaller sample sizes, it is undue to give them the same weight as more modern studies with better sampling methods and larger sample sizes. Things change and studies do become out-dated and irrelevant.

Bernese Mountain Dog discussion

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.

First statement by volunteer moderator (Bernese mountain dog)

I am willing to act as the moderator for moderated discussion about this dispute. Please read DRN Rule A. Be civil and concise. Do not engage in back-and-forth discussion. Do each of you agree to follow DRN Rule A?

The purpose of moderated discussion is to improve the encyclopedia. The first question is that each editor should say exactly what section of the article they want to change, or what section of the article they want to leave alone that another editor wants to change. If there are multiple sections whose content is disputed, please list all of them separately. Robert McClenon (talk) 14:03, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

Is there a question about the reliability of sources? If there is a question about the reliability of sources, we will ask for advice from the reliable source noticeboard, and either discuss other issues while waiting for a reply, or put this dispute on hold while waiting for a reply. Robert McClenon (talk) 14:03, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

First statements by editors (Bernese mountain dog)

I agree to follow rule A. I believe the health section should be changed to what I have in my sandbox. Reliability of sources is one issue but other issues include undue weight to studies that are obsolete due to being older and having smaller sample sizes than more recent ones. Apologies if this isn't concise enough but I do feel I need to specify which sources relate to which problem.

Unreliable: Bernese Mountain Dog Club of America, "Individual Breed Results for Purebred Dog Health Survey" (Also OR), 2Puppies, Pullman.com, a-z=animals.com, Canine Weekly, American Kennel Club

Undue: The Bernese Mountain Dog Today (1998), Dog cancer: Dog owner's mission seeks to find help for pet and human cancer victims", "Virginia-Maryland Veterinary College launches oncology program for pets", "Mortality of purebred and mixed-breed dogs in Denmark", The Complete Guide to Bernese Mountain Dogs, Bernese Mountain Dog: An Owner's Guide to a Happy Healthy Pet, WebMD

Impossible to verify due to being dead: "All-breed eye clinic for dogs to be held at 4H Center in Bridgewater" (unlikely to mention breed based on: [5], "Life in dog years: A look at the longest-lived and shortest-lived breeds",

Synthesis/OR: "Genomic Diversity and Runs of Homozygosity in Bernese Mountain Dogs" (Note: WP:MDPI) "Epidemiology, Pathology, and Genetics of Histiocytic Sarcoma in the Bernese Mountain Dog Breed" (Note: Study fails to reach conclusion on heritability and cause of HS) "Statistical analysis regarding the effects of height and weight on life span of the domestic dog" "Lifespan of companion dogs seen in three independent primary care veterinary clinics in the United States" (Unfortunately it does not specify the breed in question so applying it to a specific breed requires original research). Traumnovelle (talk) 03:00, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

Macarons

– General close. See comments for reasoning.

Filed by 62.211.155.242 on 08:28, 8 June 2024 (UTC).

Closed discussion
Macarons discussion Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary. The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.