Talk:Thirty Years' War

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This is bound to be controversial. The causes alone are enough to provoke a riot in a roomfull of historians... sjc

You guys cribbed this article from the first couple paragraphs of my homepage (http://www.pipeline.com/~cwa/TYWHome.htm). That page is copyright, and noted as such in the META data on the page. You should either (a) delete this or (b) attribute it and give a link to the source (e.g., "Adapted from <A href="http://www.pipeline.com/~cwa/TYWHome.htm">The Thirty Years War</A>"). I appreciate what Wikipedia is trying to do, but you should remember that I've also put in a lot of time making free information available to web users. Stealing my material is just wrong. CHRIS

Removing section in question until the issue is resolved --Anders Törlind

This was my mock-up originally (I suspect) although I can't check the revisions to see for sure. I have a feeling I pasted the wrong block of text into the article late at night; I know I keep tabs on Chris's site which is a very good and in-depth assessment of the 30 Years War; his stuff on the Defenestration of Prague is also very interesting. I have mailed Chris very contritely and put up instead the piece I originally intended. My apologies to all concerned. sjc

Mr. Callaway's generous apology gratefully accepted. As stated above, I view my site and Wikipedia as being on the same team, which is why I was so annoyed. To show no hard feelings, will add a couple TYW facts. CHRIS

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In 1644, the Torstenson War, a conflict between Denmark and Sweden began as a consequence of the Danish king Christian IV of Denmark's activities, lasting for about 2 years.

What is this paragraph doing in the Bohemian Revolt (1618-25) section? -- Pde 04:39, 16 Sep 2003 (UTC)

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Paragraphs below moved here from Talk:Thirty Years' War overview after merge:

Someone seems to have lost control here. Ortolan88 05:28 Nov 6, 2002 (UTC)

Why in the world is there a separate article for "Thirty Years' War overview" from the main Thirty Years' War page? Oughtn't an encyclopedia article entitled "Thirty Years' War" give, you know, an overview of the Thirty Years War? What's going on here? john 08:18 25 May 2003 (UTC)

I agree. And they seem to have been started within a week of one another. They should be merged; there are better ways of preventing the article from getting too long. Deb 19:12 25 May 2003 (UTC)

I AM THE ONE WHO WROTE THIS MATERIAL. THIS IS THE FIRST TIME THAT I HAVE RETURNED TO THIS SITE IN OVER A YEAR. THE MATERIAL IS MY OWN, BUT BASED ON LECTURES. IF IT IS THE STYLE THAT IS UNWANTED, THEN DELETE THEM, BUT IF IT IS ONLY FEAR OVER INFRINGEMENTE, THEN DO NOT WORRY, KEEP THEM. User:12.223.87.232

wrong facts !!!!!!!

hello there, I am researching the thirty years war for one of my degree modules - your page is useful BUT I have discovered one wrong fact ... "The Holy Roman Emperor and King of Bohemia Matthias died without a biological heir in 1617" - Ferdinand was elected 1617 YES but Matthias did not die until 1619, the same year that Frederick V was elected King. Maybe this is just a typo but it confused me for a bit!

Books that prove this :

Early modern Germany 1477-1806 - Michael Hughes The thirty years war, the holy roman empire - ronald asch

In the 'Danish intervention' section i removed 'both England and France were in civil war,' and replaced it with 'England was weak and internally divided, and France was in civil war'. In the period in question Richlieu was fighting the Huguenots, and I guess this was civil war (just about), but England was not in civil war, it was fighting Spain and France. The English Civil War was much later.

Mising Umlauts

I just wanted to let you know that I added the Umlauts to the reference to the city of Donauwörth in your artical. You could also write this as Donauwoerth, but not Donauworth as it was. Thanks for a great artical!!

a case for Talk:Zürich ;o) dab 19:48, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Wait, wouldn't just saying "Donauworth" be more easy on the eyes than "Donauewoerth"? I know, the whole "yer supposed to have the "e" after the vowel!" and all that BS...but, really the umlaut doesn't stand out visually as much...if you weren't going to use the umlaut, that is. But, as always, use of the umlaut is preferred. -Alex 12.220.157.93 20:40, 3 January 2006 (UTC).

What were the battles like?

Maybe this is a stupid question but can someone put in the article what warfare was like during this period and in this region? E.g. weaponry, general tactics, who comprised the armies (mercenaries, draftees, volunteers, ???), etc. (Feb.10, 2005)

Start here at Early modern warfare--Will2k 16:28, Feb 11, 2005 (UTC)

Casualties and disease

I shuffled things and split the Consequences section by adding a couple of paragraphs on epidemic and endemic disease associated with the war. Added references. Comments welcome. WBardwin 16:26, 24 May 2005 (UTC)

Finnish Nationalism?

Someone seem to be putting in some quite erroneous and/or biased opinions on pages concerning this war. Eg:

"The victory of Gustavus Adolphus at the Battle of Breitenfeld (1631), [b]secured under the command of the Finnish Field Marshal Gustaf Horn[/b]"

Not only was Gustaf Horn not a Finn, but giving him the credits is quite over the top. Sections about "famous Finnish Hakkapelitta winning all battles" seem to be popping up all over the place as well...

Germans?

-helped the Germans by leading an army against the Holy Roman Empire- Are you speaking of Austrians, Bavarians, Brandenburgern, Hessen, Holsteinern, ... Sachsen and many many more. You cannot speak of Germans easily in this context.

Axinya

Well, since many of the Germans were in rebellion against the Emperor and the Catholic Church, i guess "Germans" could be taken as a generalization of the inhabitants of the HRE. -Alex 12.220.157.93 21:06, 4 January 2006 (UTC).

Mazarin

"A year later, Louis XIII died, leaving his five-year-old son Louis XIV on the throne. His regent, Cardinal Mazarin, began to work toward a restoration of peace. "

Mazarin was certainly not the regent. He was the chief minister of Anna of Austria, Queen Regent. --PK-- 12:23, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

Edict of Restitution/Stralsund

I removed a sentence relating to emigration of Bohemian and Austrian Protestants from the paragraph on the Edict. The Edict had no force in Bohemia and Austria, which were outside the Empire. Ferdinand was able to impose religious uniformity as King of Bohemia, Duke of Styria, etc. a process he started well before 1629.

I altered a statement that Stralsund had no allies while besieged by Wallenstein. It was garrisoned by forces in the pay of the Danes and then the Swedes.

--CWA-- 11 Jan 06

Bohemia and Austria not in the Empire???? Wasn't it only because of his role as King of Bohemia that a Habsburg was an Elector? Please amplify your statment that they were not parts of the HRR. --StanZegel (talk) 12:54, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

You're correct on the Constitutional point. I'd argue that both areas were functionally outside the HRE, however. And, in any event, re-Catholicization in both well preceded the Edict, so I stand by my edit.

--CWA-- 16 Jan 06

Calvinist Bohemia

Bohemia was multi-religious with a Protestant majority (Hussites, Lutherans, Calvinists). I changed the adjective Calvinist to Protestant as relates to prewar Bohemia.

--CWA-- 12 Jan 06

The "Danish" War

I've corrected this to reflect that Christian did not lead an "invading" army": he acted as Duke of Holstein, a member of the Lower Saxon Circle, by his lights defending the rights of Lutheran lower Saxony. Richelieu was not a regent (Louis XIII had assumed direct rule by then and Richelieu was his privado/creature/favorite, although to avoid confusion I've used the style of first minister. Further, the Hague league consisted also of the Dutch and English and none of the lot of them ever paid their debts to Christian, so speaking of them as having paid for the war is untrue.

Duke Frederik was Christian's second son: Prince Elect Christian was heir-apparent in 1621. Frederik wound up King only because both Christians predeceased him in the later 1640's. He was elected coadjutor in 1621 not 1623.

Source: Lockhart, Denmark in the Thirty Years War

--CWA-- 18 Jan 06

The Peace of Prague

Clarified that the Peace only suspended the Edict and added language pointing out whose ox was gored by the selection of 1627 as the normaljahre.

Clarified that the new "Imperial" army was old wine in new bottles

Added a reference to the prohibition on foreign alliances (as well as intra-Imperial pacts)

Added a reference to the amnesty

Removed claims that the Peace legalized Calvinism (it didn't) and that it resolved the religious issues in the war (ditto).

Source (inter alia): Asch, The Thirty Years War

--CWA 17:11, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

Battle Information

I have added to what is the best of my knowledge historically accurate accounts and stats to the followings battles and personalities, as I found some fields lacking and/or historically inaccurate:

Battle of Pilsen (# of Rebel troops)

Battle of Weisloch (Stats, Rewrote the battle Info, Specified the location)

Battle of Wimpfen (Generals involved, troops numbers, rewrote the battle account, Protestant casualties)

Battle of Hochst(Mentioned the act that it is a disputed victory for the Catholics, added generals involved, troop numbers, casualties, Battle account, political repercussions pertaining to the battle)

Battle of Fleurus (Updated the generals involved, wrote the battle account)

Battle of Stadtlohn (Troop numbers, casualties, rewrote the battle account, wrote on implications of the battle.)

Battle of Dessau Bridge (Wrote the battlke account, troop numbers, casualties, generals involved, implications)

I wrote or contributed articles on the following personalities:

Christian of Brunswick (I was amazed that noone had written on him, as he is in my opinion one of the more coloful generals of the war, almost a rock star. I hope that this article is enjoyed and valuable)

Ambrogio di Spinola (I will be deleting my article tonight and correcting any mistaken links. My apologies for creating a dual article)

I also gave mentions to the General Gonzalez de Cordoba and mentioned his participation in several battle during the 'Palatine Phase' of the war as he is often not given credit for assisting Tilly in his victories or his own individual actions. I was and am unable to found any accounts on his life. I have left links open to him should anyone be able to do so.

I hope that this information is found valauble and contributing to the Thirty Years' War page as a whole, criticism and contributions are welcome.

Joshcurry 1/22

Corrections on the events leading up to and after Stadtlohn, mentioned that it was Christian of Brunswick, not Mansfeld who was defeated there. Also gvae information regarding the armistice between Frederick V and Ferdinand II

Stadlohn &c.

Fleurus was a skirmish. Even Guthrie, in his frankly guns-and-drums history, gives it no more than a few lines. The rest corrected per Guthrie vol. 1 pp. 105-06.

Source: Guthrie, Battles of the Thirty Years War

CWA 02:05, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Frederick V and Armistice

Re-added the note that Frederick surrendered upon the news of his losses at Stadtlohn, changed the link so that it will go to the battle information instead of town information. I will be adding geographic pictures to my developed battle pages soon.

Could you please provide a citation for your statement that Frederick V surrendered? Also the reference to exile is puzzling as well. Frederick had been sitting in the Hague making a nuisance of himself since shortly after White Mountain, and there he would remain. He didn't go anywhere just because Halberstadt got his come-uppance.

CWA 21:43, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

My armistice/surrender citation is from David Eggenberger's "A Dictonary of Battles" (1967,) the quote suggesting this armistice comes from his entry on the Battle of Statdlohn

""The battle of Stadtlohn finished Christian, the "mad Halberstadtler," as an effective commander of Protestant forces. Three days later [bearing in mind that the battle was Aug. 6,] all hope abandoned, the elector palatine (and briefly King of Bohemia), Frederick V, signed an armistice with Tilly's superior, Ferdinand II, Holy Roman Emperor."

It was after this point that he was unable to dictate the mounting of any further campaigns under his own finances or will. It was to my understanding as well that between White Mountain and the fall of Heidelberg, he had directed the war from that respective city before fleeing to The Hague. This knowledge is backed by the following quote from Encyclopedia Brittanica regarding his situation.

"He fled to The Hague in 1622 and for the rest of his life lived on money supplied by the Dutch and English. When Sweden joined the anti-Habsburg coalition, Frederick followed Gustavus II Adolphus in his march across Germany (1630–32), but he died before he was able to reclaim his throne. "

http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9035246

This statement is the reason why I mentioned that he was forced into exile. He did not simply go from Bohemia to The Hague and conduct his war from there. He returned his original home in The Palatinate and conducted his war from there using Mansfeld and Christian. He fled when it became apparent that The Palatinate was lost to him.

Yes he did seek to have his kingdom restored to him, and made a attempt on the coattails of Gustavus Adolphus. But at this point int he war, would you not consider losing all of your land and signing a armistice because you have lost all of your forces for one reason or another a surrender?

JC 1/26 3:10AM CST