Talk:Wiki Project Med

Foundation recognition

There is a discussion about getting Foundation recognition of this project, occurring at Talk:Step-by-step_Thematic_Organization_creation_guide. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 04:29, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Now that conversation is happening on this page. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 01:21, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

Wikimedia medicine email list

You can join the email list discussing this project. Ask James. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 04:29, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

I would like to join this mailing list. Thanks. Vinicius Siqueira (talk) 19:31, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

Me too, thank you! NCurse (talk) 16:04, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Email me and I will send you an invite. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 04:28, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Quality of content

It would be great if the mission included something about the quality of the content. There is a fair amount of open source health information available, but high quality content that satisfies en:WP:MEDMOS and en:WP:MEDRS should be our aim. JFW (talk) 17:36, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

Agree and feel free to change the wording to reflect this. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 17:39, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

I'm wondering if we should mention all Wikimedia projects in the description of the purview. Definitions on Wiktionary need attention, and there's plenty of room for expansion of med/bio images at Commons. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 05:25, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

Excellent suggestion and feel free to change this proposal yourself. You do great work Anthony thus I am hoping you will be willing to join us. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 00:23, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

How's this for a mission statement?

to make comprehensive, reliable, well-organised, well-written and well-presented, current, evidence-based medical knowledge available to all people in their preferred language

--Anthonyhcole (talk) 06:50, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

Yes. How about splitting it over two sentences

To make high quality medical knowledge available to all people in their preferred language, where high quality refers to comprehensive, reliable, well-written, current, and evidence based

? Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 17:06, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

That's better! --Anthonyhcole (talk) 14:53, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

Continuing along the same lines...

To make high quality medical knowledge available to all people in their preferred language, where "high quality" refers to relevant content that is reliable and evidence-based; comprehensive and up-to-date; and clearly expressed.

—MistyMorn (talk) 10:14, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Great. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 04:22, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Board membership

I'm not a doctor and have no relevant skills to bring to the board, so won't be applying for membership, but I'd like to very carefully follow the activities of the board. Will all board discussions occur in the open except for those involving personal or commercial-in-confidence information (but I can't imagine much of that)? That is, will the board restrict its discussion of policy and initiatives to fora where others interested in this project can scrutinise that discussion?

I can see no reason for anything but radical transparency here, and would like to hear the views of others on this point. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 05:18, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

I see no reason why anyone interested should be restricted from joining. Besides board members there would be general members. Since Wikipedia is the single most consulted source of health information in the world I think that everyone in the world has some stake in the work of this project, so it may not be appropriate to restrict membership to health professionals. Blue Rasberry (talk) 20:44, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

We want people from all walks of life not just medical professionals. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 00:19, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

I agree, Blue Rasberry and James, and very much want to be an assembly member; but on the board I'd like to see an accountant, a lawyer, philosophers of science and epistemology, a professor or recognised expert or two in pedagogy, as well as some expertise in medicine communication and curricula. That's ideal of course. I'd be happy to contribute within my limitations to board decisions if we're so bereft of options that that becomes useful, or for a limited time during this formative stage, but hopefully we're not that desperate. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 06:13, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

Those are very high standards you have :-) We are simply a group of people who care deeply about providing accurate health care information to the world in the language of their choice. We welcome all who share this vision. And if one has time and while to pursue it to a greater degree we would welcome you on the board. Most of what boards do is boring stuff like make sure that the bank accounts balance and the government is paid their yearly fees. Organizing funding will also be a key part. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 02:17, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Yes, we may have to start with each other but, hopefully, as this thing gains momentum and gets some runs on the board we'll be able to attract a few Nobel laureates :) --Anthonyhcole (talk) 04:21, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Probably not, and you don't want them on your board anyway. You put people like that on advisory boards. You do not invite them to spend hours talking about what kind of fundraiser to hold next or whether the budget for next year is realistic and whether it is worth spending thousands of dollars getting books officially audited.

Board membership is largely boring administrative work, plus an opportunity to be blamed for anything that goes wrong, or that seems to go wrong in someone's opinion, or that doesn't happen exactly when and how someone wanted it to. It is not a glamorous job. It is likely to be about as much fun as serving on ArbCom. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:17, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

WAID it would be great to have you as a board member. Interested in taking on this role? Agree that it is mostly boring stuff / paperwork. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 17:36, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

I'd prefer WAID to any Nobel laureate, but she's declined. She's right, though, if it's not fun, we shouldn't be doing it. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 22:00, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

Transparency

User:Anthonyhcole above asked for radical transparency in this groups' discussions. I presume that this chapter would be managed as any other existing Wikipedia chapter according to established norms.

One thing which comes to my mind which might be different is that perhaps this group should have a private ethics review board should it ever come to pass that personally identifiable health content, such as media files being presented to demonstrate health conditions, become commonly passed through this project. Probably this group should make public statements on the ethics of sharing health-related media files, and probably some ethics discussions about sharing media content should happen in private as is the tradition when disclosure of information can harm persons. I think these would be unusual cases but still much more likely to happen in a medicine project than in any other kind of project. It is very common in many countries for organizations to have ethical review of media content they publish; perhaps such review would be appropriate for housing in this project at some point. Blue Rasberry (talk) 20:59, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

I agree that basically everything should occur out in the open. This will give us a foundation from which to apply for grants and a legal entity with which to interact with other organizations.

Developing guidelines regarding ethics can take place in the open. Specific cases that involved identifiable people may need to take place behind closed doors. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 00:22, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

I hate to say this, but transparency sometimes interferes with getting the job done. There are good legal and ethical restrictions to transparency that most people accept, but there are some practical ones, too. It's hard to get candid comments and opinions if people worry that they'll be targeted by trolls. If you make a public commitment to "radical transparency", then the mere belief that something wasn't disclosed or adequately discussed will become a bone of contention. I'd suggest that you formally adopt a strategy of "best practices" or some such phrase, and then do your best in practice to be radically transparent within legal/ethical limits. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:25, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

Now, this is why you should be on the board. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 22:06, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

Existing initiatives

Some existing initiatives that this entity could oversee or support include:

• Translation initiative
• Peer review and open source journal publication of Wikipedia articles
• There's at least one other initiative from James that I can't bring to mind at the moment.

Thoughts? --Anthonyhcole (talk) 06:29, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

Agree that is the idea. As well as the collaborations with WHO, Cochrane and pubmed. These organizations are interested in the possibility of Wikipedians in Residence. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 13:03, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

That's what I was trying to remember! --Anthonyhcole (talk) 13:43, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

I keep the main things I am working on listed on my user page under "current projects" Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 02:11, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Political advocacy

Just want to point out this is a bit of a grey area in the law and after incorporating if we engage in certain actions of political advocacy without consulting a lawyer we could run into legal problems. Just a little disclaimer. Peter.C (talk) 06:12, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

There are two actions which interest me - making political statements and endorsing political statements of others. Some examples of political statements of relevance to this group are the following:

1. All government health organizations should freely release online any health data and media which they have collected and created for educating the public
2. Governments should support Internet media as a tool for educating the public on health topics

Should there ever be a case when any government or government-funded entity has some educational health media for the public which it produced under a non-free license then I propose that Wikimedia Medicine have the option to request that government entity to make that media free and to change laws so that similar media will be free. If some other organization is petitioning for a change in law which would free health information then I think that Wikimedia Medicine has stakeholdership to be able to endorse such petitions from other organizations.

I have heard about problems other organizations have had accessing health media intended for the public but which is not free. I think it would be in line with Wikimedia Medicine goals to be conscious of issues related to access to educational health media and to issue statements advocating for free access to public educational health media. I also do not want legal trouble in making such statements and we should get legal advice about what limit the organization has in making such statements.

I think that this issue is relevant now - I think that it would be great if from the inception of the organization we asked for free access to the public's taxpayer-funded health educational media in all countries. Blue Rasberry (talk) 11:23, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

One is allowed to spend 10-15% of their income on political activities up here in Canada and still remain a charity. If you spend more however you are not eligible for charity status.

We should support other organizations, institutions and governments in releasing their health related content under an open license. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 17:01, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

I proposed some political advocacy issues here - Wikimedia_MED/Advocacy. I would love to learn more about potential problems for doing political advocacy - if it is only a matter of not spending much money then that sounds great, because spending money to do advocacy is not something that I ever imagined doing. I was thinking about endorsing efforts which were started by other organizations. Blue Rasberry (talk) 17:20, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

Yes as far as I am aware we are allowed to support / endorse efforts of other organizations. The IRS only cares when tax deductible donations are funding it from my understanding. But of course I am not a lawyer. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 17:24, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

As I understand it, the IRS only cares about the money (that's their job), and they primarily only care about spending that is intended to influence votes/support a particular candidate for elected office. I doubt that any WMF-related organization would have any reason to do that anyway. In the US, organizations have a free-speech right to say (for example) that they support open access to research results. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:31, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

I wrote some by-laws

Hey guys, what do you think of these by-laws I am proposing? Here is the main page and here is my editing process. Blue Rasberry (talk) 23:18, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

Great call. Using Wikimedia NYC bylaws will make things easy. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 23:35, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

Thank you! I've asked Bence for input here. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 14:59, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

Introducing myself

Hi everyone! My name is Vinicius Siqueira, I'm wikimedian since 2007, four years before begining my studies at Medical School in the Federal University of Rio de Janeiro (UFRJ). I'm former administrator of pt.wikipedia and, presently, I've been involved in the stablishment of the brazilian Wikimedia chapter and started last semester as campus ambassador in my university. This year I had the pleasure of attending Wikimania in Washington DC and this event showed some activities combining Wikimedia projects and healthcare subjects in what I'm very interested. Despite this conversation had taken place in Wikimania I was not advised about that. Occasionally I met this page in meta's recent changes and got very excited, so I'm available to help in the way I'll be able. One of the strongest reasons I have to be here is to bring the effects of this chapter to brazilian and all other portuguese speakers. Thank you, Vinicius Siqueira (talk) 04:26, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

To bad we did not meet up. I spent some of my training in Presidente Prudente [1] at Santa Casa hospital and UNOESTE. Welcome. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 05:05, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

That really is unfortunate that we did not meet. If you have any ideas about how to plan a collaboration between this group and Wikimedia Brazil then please share. Blue Rasberry (talk) 13:40, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

Good to have you here. :) --Anthonyhcole (talk) 14:41, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

Yes. It was too bad not meeting you in Wikimania, but we will have other opportunities to offset this. James, I really appreciate to know that you have walked through terras brasileiras. I hope you come back soon! Wikimedia Brasil is not even a consolidated chapter. We are leading for this. Talking to an organization of medical students of my university, exactly trying to think about a partnership, I thought in contribute to the Translation Task Force, improving content in Portuguese. I will enjoy if you share some ideas you have in this purpose. Vinicius Siqueira (talk) 06:49, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Questions

Bence has just pointed to this questionnaire. These and some other questions will be put to us in a week. I thought we might give some thought to answers now so we're better prepared when the committee gets back to us.

• Who are the people behind this application?
  • How many?
  • any active (on local or international level) Wiki[pm]edians? (please provide user names and wiki of origin)
  • Active in which communities if any?
• Could you give a short overview of the time path of the founding up to now?
• Have there been any activities/meetings etc. of this group of people?
• What kind of activities are planned for the future in the chapter?
• Do you have an overview of how many Wikimedians would like to join the chapter when founded?
• Have the bylaws been reviewed by a lawyer/specialist?
• How can we help you?

--Anthonyhcole (talk) 16:11, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

Here is how I would answer this with some ideas on how to progress forward:

• We have a more than enough people (nine) so we are good in that category and they all seem active from various parts of the world. We could work on an official list with who people are and what they do for people to fill out on their own.
• Don't quite understand that one. We had an idea and all developments on it are on this meta page.
• A lot of us met up at Wikimania and discussed it, but perhaps we could have some sort of online meetup (Google hangout?) and discuss it further? Maybe even set up a monthly meeting?
• [[2]]
• I would assume the same 9 that listed.
• No, when they are finalized I will send off a copy to the lawyer working on incorporation and to Newyorkbrad who has his own niche in Wiki law.

Just a little cheat sheet to refer back to with some ideas. Peter.C (talk) 02:30, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

I can propose an answer for the question about the path to founding. I think this could be an overview of members' personal histories about how they came to feel the need to start a group - for example, "User was coordinating a project which required formal structure which only an organization could provide." It might not be a bad idea to have 1-2 sentence profiles of members on a list of why they are in this group. I have never seen that done with WikiProjects but perhaps since this group will be setting a precedent it would be worth considering if there was any reason to do this. That could be a way to describe group history - it is a convergence of the work of many individuals. Blue Rasberry (talk) 13:24, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Concerning the question "any active (on local or international level) Wiki[pm]edians?", Doc James is active both locally and internationally - for example he's coming to the UK at the end of the month for an event sponsored by two national chapters. Also I serve on the board of Wikimedia UK, and hopefully I can bring some of my experience to the process of setting up WMMED. I'm sure others will be able to give examples of their local and international level as wikimedians. --RexxS (talk) 19:13, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

Non-Wikipedian membership

The quality of health information on Wikipedia is not just the business of Wikipedians; I think I could argue that the information on this website has a significant effect on a significant percentage of the world's population as compared to the influence of any other educational health outreach project. About having Wikipedians join - it might be the case that someday a health organization may want to join the board as a non-Wikipedian and that could be a good thing. Stakeholdership in this organization is not just among the Wikipedia community - I think it might be worth counting how many people would join this organization rather than just how many Wikimedians. Blue Rasberry (talk) 13:24, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Agree completely. There are editors of journals who are interested in joining, members of w:en:Translators Without Borders and a number of profs / others in the open source movement. Anyone who shares our goal of making Wikipedia/Wikimedia better and using it to get health care information to all will be welcome to join. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 15:51, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

People with detailed knowledge of health publishing and open source medicine would be very welcome indeed. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 17:32, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Really encouraging stuff, imo. Although not much of a contributor myself, I'm acutely aware of the relevance of what Bluerasberry is saying. I feel this is a good path to be pursuing. —MistyMorn (talk) 20:11, 4 August 2012 (UTC)

Sourcing

• It occurs to me that this effort would be at liberty to adopt sourcing rules distinct from MEDRS that could prevent many of the difficulties seen in the Wikipedia article-space. We might, for instance, support a positive FUTON bias, which would tend to better support verifiability (not to mention helping incent authors to choose open publication).
• Although it never fails to astound me what Wikipedia:RX is able to find, it would still be much better to have an explicit cooperation arrangement with publishers. Such arrangement should seek to provide easy access to major sources, at least for some established editors. (It is understandable that commercial publishers' stockholders might balk at opening the door to free access for all readers, they would no doubt need some assurance against widespread abuse.)
• Many publishers already make available free access to institutions in developing countries, through efforts such as the WHO's HINARI. Doing so here could be a logical extension of that concept, by assisting Wikimedia Medicine efforts to provide such information.

LeadSongDog (talk) 17:54, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Excellent idea. If we at WM:MED could get access for our members that would be a huge plus. I asked my University library about the possibility. They have very tough contracts signed with publishers about who exactly can get access via them. Let me check with WHO. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 18:11, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

!!! This proposal could be a winning situation for all involved. Blue Rasberry (talk) 19:19, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

I can't support a positive FUTON bias but do support the use of a free over a non-free source when each is making the same point and is equally reliable. And I'm not sure it's our call anyway. Sourcing policy seems to me to be firmly a matter for English Wikipedia and the other individual projects. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 17:25, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Well, well there's the nub. Are we talking about articles to be developed on en WP, then ported, or are we talking about a different partnership, that develops the content on WM:MED and then ports it to other WPs equally, revising as needed for each project's rules? LeadSongDog (talk) 18:21, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Either way I won't personally support allowing a source's free availability to outweigh reliability. I see the writing and online publishing happening at en.Wikipedia, de.Wikipedia, Wiktionary, etc., and images hosted and curated at Commons. This body, Wikimedia Medicine, will facilitate those processes by liaising with professional bodies, institutions, businesses, NGO's, governments, etc. But that's just how I see it. The purpose of this discussion is to hear all ideas. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 19:41, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Dear me, I certainly didn't intend that FUTON should outweigh reliability, quite the opposite. FUTON encourages reliability. Increasingly major journals are publishing some or all content freely, and such articles see substantially higher citation rates. The present ruleset assumes that a source's value is unrelated to its accesssibility, but that is patently false: If a single wp editor misinterprets an offline source, that error is far more likely to persist than if the source was online and accessible by any interested reader. No one is going to advocate ignoring a systematic review in Lancet for a reader comment in PLoS One, but where sources are of similar relevance and reliability, why not prefer the one that actually gets used by readers? LeadSongDog (talk) 16:03, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

I misunderstood you. We agree. And I like your idea for free online access to journals and textbooks for members. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 00:52, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

What to do about sourcing kind of depends on your audience. So Doc James mostly chooses review articles, because that will be more impressive to other physicians than equally good textbooks. Students might make the opposite choice, because it will feel better to other students. Patients might reject both options and choose lay-friendly patient-oriented websites, brochures, or books, because that will be better for their audience, which is other patients.

Personally, I think the best option for the English Wikipedia (usually) is to have a mix of sources: review articles for up-to-date evidence on what works best, textbooks for physiology, diagnosis, and such, the occasional freely available patient-oriented website for simple information, etc. But figuring out what's "best" depends significantly on what you're actually trying to accomplish. WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:22, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

I do use a lot of textbooks as references. A number of very broad topics do not have reviews which deal with the subject matter as a whole. And of course for pathophysiology as you mention.Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 04:17, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I know. But the question about sourcing is really about audience: when you have a choice, when the information could be adequately sourced to several different types of sources, which do you choose? The answer is, I think, that it depends on your target audience. MEDRS, for example, prefers secondary sources, which indicates an audience choice: we are choosing clinicians and patients over researchers (who would find it far more convenient if we cited the best primary sources instead of review articles and textbooks). So what's the audience for this group? Knowing that will tell us a lot. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:34, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Secondary sources typically carry the primary sources within them. Thus this would satisfy the researcher. Our audience is general but yes we are leaning towards summaries which are more applicable to physicians and patients than to researchers in that specific field.Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 17:43, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

While definitely agree that researchers don't need Wikipedia for their field, I do take the point that not citing major trials can seem strange. (In an ideal world, I suppose we'd have articles dedicated to notable trials based on secondary sources...) —MistyMorn (talk) 20:17, 4 August 2012 (UTC)

Adding: I tend to agree that it would be good to find a practical way of providing multiple sources for different types of reader. I suppose there could be several ways of doing this. Such as by using footnotes in addition to references (example), or referencing first mentions of concepts, where appropriate with reliable material written for a general audience. Though I can see the relevance of using high quality textbooks, for verification (or further reading) I find they're the opposite of FUTON—very difficult to access without physical access to a library. Ideally, I feel it would be good to develop editorial solutions that favour multiple readerships (per WAITM's point)... nobody excluded—even academics browsing outside their own field. I guess that challenges to doing this sort of thing include sorting out the editorial esthetics (general usability considerations) and safeguarding against gaming the system (pov-pushing etc). Inevitably too, there are intrinsic limitations to universal comprehensibility: however carefully presented, certain parts of articles (eg detailed immunology bits!) are always likely to remain difficult reading for the majority of our readers. —MistyMorn (talk) 17:38, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

First, do no harm...

If this project develops high quality medical content on its own, which can be used and referenced in many projects, great. But I'd like some reassurance that its purpose isn't going to end up being as an external group coordinating the exclusion of information from Wikipedia merely because it is not universally agreed, or conventional. I want a Wikipedia that covers all the herbal remedies, true and false alike, citing all the sources from the Ebers Papyrus to the Ethnobotanical Journal. I want a Wikipedia - accurately representing the tentative nature of the research - that covers breaking news stories that amount to a newspaper article and a primary journal article. I don't want this displaced by content that is "conservative", out of date by design, or which dismisses unread any part of the collective literature of mankind, even the crazy parts. If your project offers a chance to create a finer focus with a more carefully sorted pool of editors and content, that's great - as long as it provides an additional resource, and doesn't exclude the broader goal of reflecting all human knowledge. In that case, I think it will be a most worthy enterprise. Wnt (talk) 00:44, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Sure. One has to be very careful covering breaking news as it is so frequently simply wrong / misinterpreted / out of context. A lot of the herbal stuff is written as adverting on Wikipedia unfortunately. Would be great if more people would want to help fix this but not my interest. The goal is to write balance, NPOV, health care content based on the best available resources. Other organizations have similar goes and this organization would help facilitate that. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 00:54, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Wikipedia is the page/portal that floats to the top of most search engine results, so it is the Wikipedia article on a topic that will present any content that WM:MED sponsors or generates (same for definitions at Wiktionary and images at Commons). So, regardless of where it comes from, regardless of what policies and guidelines WM:MED may impose, content will have to conform to the policies and guidelines of those projects before they will host it. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 12:34, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Can you help this person?

This is not that uncommon: there was just a posting to the Science Refdesk on Wikipedia by an Ethiopian IP address, w:User:213.55.115.237,

"my name is ___ Ethiopian live in AddisAbaba my phone no ___ email add. ___

"MY CHILD Dagmawe born September1996 with spania bifida problem now he is sick he did not eat food he have infected in his leg and back sit place he have long treatment anti biotic and test gastric, kidney, sugar and stool but not problem on the result his weight will be drop day to day is their highly infected part in his back and leg no Doctor to give me solution and a real information to me p/s help me by advice urgently tank you for your reply soon."

To which the "ethical" people at the Refdesk dutifully responded,

"This question has been removed. Per the reference desk guidelines, the reference desk is not an appropriate place to request medical, legal or other professional advice, including any kind of medical diagnosis, prognosis, or treatment recommendations. For such advice, please see a qualified professional..."

Question: is there any way to see a clear ethical path to not tell people like this to FOAD, or does the moral imperative of denying medical information to the world's poor so outweigh all other considerations that there is nowhere that any well meaning volunteer should be permitted to try to talk with someone like this, get some understanding of the situation, and look for simple ideas and resources to help? Wnt (talk) 10:55, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

I have occasionally pointed a talk page questioner to an article or section that addresses their question. But the way things are presently set up, I can't endorse going any further than that. We all want this reader (and their doctor) to be able to quickly and easily find a trustworthy answer to their medical question online. Ultimately, that's what WT:MED and WM:MED are about. We're not there yet. But we will get there, and soon. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 12:25, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

I think that Wikimedia Medicine ought to maintain input into the medical disclaimer and inform other projects, like the help desk, of how it ought to be used. To make an example of this case by giving a proposal about how I think queries like this ought to be answered, I think that a good response would include the following:

1. Simple condolence without leading the person on to think that they should talk more about their situation
2. A link to the medical disclaimer with a statement that Wikipedia provides information, but not advice
3. A link to information which relates to their question - in this case, the article on spina bifida

I do not know the legal subtleties between giving advice and directing people to information, but in this case Wikipedia had something useful to share to this person (information about a disease) but because the questioner asked for advice instead of information, the person was directed to leave with nothing. I would like to think that it would be possible to say, "Sorry, we do not have advice, but here is some information." We should probably take ownership of developing best practices for how to handle requests for medical advice.

I do not blame the people at the help desk - I think they are following best practices as they exist and can be understood now. Blue Rasberry (talk) 12:54, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Agree. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 13:31, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

I was hoping you'd provide an alternative to Wikipedia rather than merely interpreting or interfering in its policies. I mean, the nearest alternative for this person is... Yahoo Answers? Can't you or Wikipedia do better than that? It's not good enough to link to spina bifida - to answer this question, someone would need to talk to this person, get out all the little details (like whether the kid still has a visible infection or not at this point) and research the literature a bit. Then he can point the questioner to potentially relevant information. I still don't think that's advice - I don't think that helping someone research the literature is advice. Wnt (talk) 13:34, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

This seems like the question, am I willing to practice medicine online, as what you describe would be taking a history and providing advice. I would be unable to do a physical exam, I have had people offer to send me their lab work and imaging to which I have declined. While I think this service would potentially have benefits I 1) am concerned about issues of liability and licensing. These are huge and includes not only fines but jail sentences if it is deemed you are practicing medicine in a jurisdiction without a license. I have just had two physician friends who where tossed out of Africa recently. One was in Kenya/Somalia with Doctors Without Borders. The government decided they did not want help for their people. The other was tossed out of Zimbabwe over similar issues. Africa has more issues than just a lack of physicians. 2) asecond issue is that I do not have time to provide one on one care via the Internet 3) I simply would be unable to provide good care. I will likely volunteer with MSF one day but you cannot do medicine justice from across the world.Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 14:11, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

I appreciate that there are harsh and unjust laws, but there are other sites like www.gout-pal.com that routinely allow patients to talk about their experiences and share ideas. Why should Wikipedia, or a project you begin, not be able to do as they do, with a wider focus? Wnt (talk) 22:10, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

There are several reasons.

• Nothing happens without a community, and there is no community to organize or support this at this time. The reality is that Wikipedia is the world's most popular website for sharing health information and even it is desperately low on contributors and participants. There are no human resources to expand focus. I want to build Wikipedia's social network for one goal before breaking that community to tackle separate projects.
• There is a likelihood of a bad result (by not helping people, by harming people, and by wasting time and money) when carelessly beginning a health support network, and right now, a careless beginning is the only option for which we have resources to try.
• I contribute to Wikimedia projects because it is, by my evaluation, the best possible use of my time. I truly feel that contributors to other sites like gout pal would bring more benefit into the world if they abandoned their work until they had fully developed informational content on Wikipedia. More people have greater need for Wikipedia than their website. All benefit starts with sharing basic information - after Wikipedia is developed then other projects will be meaningful.

Blue Rasberry (talk) 17:13, 4 August 2012 (UTC)

• The above prompted me to look at Category:Health in Ethiopia on WP, and the coverage truly is in a sad state. Still, providing a link to whatever coverage we do have could assist people in finding whatever local care is available, without attempting to practice at a distance. Sometimes, this sort of thing actually improves WP too. LeadSongDog (talk) 19:10, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

We should also encourage all people to improve Wikipedia. These people may be willing to help fix the current situation. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 19:14, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Questions from ChapComm

Mission

1. What is your scope? What definition of medicine are you planning to use?

   We are using the common definition of medicine and our scope is the same as that of Wikiproject Medicine Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 11:59, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

   Indulge me. What is the "common" definition (Western? Easten?) and to which Wikiproject Medicine are you referring? That of the English Wikipedia, Spanish Wikipedia, French Wikipedia...? Raystorm (talk) 14:12, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

   We have a nice page here on the definition. w:en:Medicine Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 14:18, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

   Western, I guess then. Japanese wp article could do with some work, btw. Raystorm (talk) 14:35, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

   Eastern medicine is not precisely the same as alternative medicine with an Oriental origin. Do you have a particular area of interest that you think is being overlooked or unfairly excluded? WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:50, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

   I think, the aim of the question is generally to see that you have thought through what should or should not fall withing your scope (it is after all, entirely your decision to draw any lines you agree on, or be totally inclusive). Given that we are not medical experts, it would help us understand your definition if you were a bit more specific than a link to Wikipedia. Even if medicine is very broad, would you consider devoting special attention to improving content on traditional or alternative medicine, or would you rather prefer to make cutting edge results available to all? Are there any fault-lines along which people might consider a practice or idea part or not part of medicine – and if so, do you have a position on the issue?

   Medicine is a very broad topic, and you aim to create an organization with global reach, we want to see that your mission, membership, structure is compatible with this aim - there is a bit of a worry – that your answers and action can assuage – that there would be a crowding out effect for local volunteers if your actions didn't reach their parts of the world, or doesn't cover their understanding of medicine and they are unable to participate in WM:MED. (Technically, it would be possible to have more thematic organisations focused on medicine, but in practice it would be a bit controversial and difficult to set up, that is why we want WM:MED to succeed and be inclusive from the get-go.) --Bence (talk) 17:17, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

   Yes it is a very broad topic which is why it is difficult to come up with a simple definition. I like the Wikipedia definition "Medicine is the applied science or practice of the diagnosis, treatment, and prevention of disease" The key words I think are "applied science or practice" and "disease". This referencing guideline is also key [3] Not sure what you mean by "crowding out effect for local volunteers if your actions didn't reach their parts of the world" Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 18:10, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

   The following terms describe medicine as a cultural practice and not as a scientific practice: traditional, modern, Eastern, Oriental, allophathic, Western, conventional, and alternative. This chapter is to develop articles on the scientific practice and non-scientific cultural practice of medicine and to maintain a distinction between the two. The way to make the distinction between scientific practices and non-scientific cultural practices is to consider whether a practice is evidence-based or non-evidence based, and none of the cultural words above necessarily indicate that difference. "Evidence-based medicine" is a technical term which refers to "scientific evidence", and that also is a technical term. There is rarely any confusion about what is scientific and what is not. The usual conflict which WikiProject Medicine encounters is that someone does not distinguish between scientific practice and non-scientific practice, and asserts that a cultural practice is scientific or that a scientific practice is cultural without considering any scientific evidence. There is opportunity in this chapter for anyone who wants to develop cultural or scientific articles on medicine, but this chapter cannot entertain discussions which begin with the premise that scientific information is directly equivalent with non-scientific information or that sometimes it is not possible to distinguish the two. That distinction should transcend all cultures. Lots of cultural practices are scientific. The general word "medicine" in English, as a default, refers to evidence-based medicine. Blue Rasberry (talk) 20:25, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

   Perhaps it's worth pointing out that the term "evidence-based medicine" is a recent coinage, from around 1990—even though many of its principles are less recent. As defined by one of its original proponents, Evidence based medicine is the conscientious, explicit, and judicious use of current best evidence in making decisions about the care of individual patients. The practice of evidence based medicine means integrating individual clinical expertise with the best available external clinical evidence from systematic research. [4]. I think Blueraspberry is rightly considering evidence-based medicine in a broad sense as medical practice that is grounded in scientific evidence. —MistyMorn (talk) 14:40, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

Per James and Blue Rasberry, en:WP:MED's scope is the scope I envision for this themed organisation. Per Bence, we should agree on a statement that summarises that. Bence, WP:MED encompasses all content related to health, including Eastern, traditional, folk, fringe, alternative, complementary and anything else that touches on health. Where there is scientific evidence related to a view, or where scientific consensus is clear on a view, we report that. Where there isn't, we report that. en.WP articles on traditional medicine and fringe medicine are as carefully curated as any other health-related content. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 13:24, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

In our real world, there will presumably be a need to prioritise topics that are clinically relevant to different settings, based on available scientific evidence. I don't think, say, the physiological notions used in traditional Chinese Medicine (however interesting they may be from several viewpoints) need be a particular concern of the present project, whereas scientific evidence of the efficacy or otherwise of particular therapies or practices might be. From a global perspective, I think the project may eventually have to address relevant challenges regarding our approach to traditional forms of medicine in their original settings. Such questions may be especially relevant for some the most isolated and vulnerable of peoples, for whom antibiotics, say, may be a very important tool to survive contact with the outside world, and whose traditional ways also require utmost respect. I feel that we should be aware of the anthropological dimension. —MistyMorn (talk) 13:08, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

1. Do you intend to limit yourselves to Western medicine?

   See above for the scope. If you look at our article on say Common cold you will notice that all aspects are covered including history, social aspects, and alternative medicine.Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 11:59, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

   Your scope only intends to impact English Wikipedia, then? Raystorm (talk) 14:12, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

   There are language links to the left and one goal is to get content into all 285 languages in which Wikipedia currently exists and more. We are also hoping to find authors to specifically address language / culture specific content within languages. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 18:16, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

2. Do you intend to focus on the Anglophone world?

   No. A big part of this effort is improving content in other languages. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 11:59, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

   Terrific! How? Have you for example contacted other language Medicine Wikiprojects? Raystorm (talk) 14:12, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

   Have left notes on the talk pages of all other Wikiprojects. Discourse will primarily take place in English because medical research primarily takes place in English. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 18:14, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

   With respect to the translation project I have contacted all other Medicine Wikiprojects. I have also spoken to medical schools in both India and Nepal about becoming involved with the Wikimedia Movement. Will be posting further about this thematic group. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 14:18, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

   IMO, the multilingual/multicultural nature of the global Wikipedia project offers great opportunities for local access to good quality, evidence-based medical information worldwide. For historical and institutional reasons, most of the primary and secondary sources providing high-quality evidence are originally published in the English language. Despite the existence of worthwhile translation/digest services in non-anglophone countries, the reality is that medical professionals who aren't wholly confident in English are at a disadvantage. The opportunities that Wikipedia provides for sharing well-sourced information across languages and cultures may help redress some of this imbalance in ways that could be relevant around the world (including the poorer parts of the world). In this view, I see Doc James's translation project as an exciting step in the realization of some of these potentials. Obviously, great sensitivity is needed to avoid perception of initiatives like this as a form of anglophone colonialism. One of the advantages of Wikipedia worldwide is its capacity to provide information that is relevant to speakers of different languages—including less widely spoken languages which effectively represent regional communities with particular interests and needs. Smaller Wikipedias are able to take advantage of content from good articles on the larger Wikipedias while at the same time providing information that is especially relevant to local or regional public health contexts. —MistyMorn (talk) 14:09, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

Structure and legal matters

1. Is there a provisional Board? If so, who are the people in it?

   Right here Wikimedia_Medicine#Provisional_board_members Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 18:12, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

2. What is the jurisdiction you are planning to incorporate in? Was there any discussion about the topic? Specifically, have you considered other jurisdictions besides the one you plan to choose?

   We were looking at either New York or British Columbia.Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 11:59, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

   Why New York, rather than California (where the WMF is located, although probably not where they're incorporated), Delaware (darling of the corporate world), or some other state? (BTW, you need to decide whether you'll have members before you make this decision. In some states, if you have members, the Board meetings must be open to them [except for specified exemptions], and the membership, rather than the previous board, will be the ones that vote in the next board and take other decisions.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:38, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

   Peter C's parents are lawyers and have agreed to help us incorporate there. Also WM NY has bylaws written for that jurisdiction that we can base ours on. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 17:44, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

3. Do you have the bylaws ready or are they currently under development? Are you planning to post them for review in the near future? Have they been reviewed by a lawyer/specialist?

   Under development still. But they are here [5] Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 11:59, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

The WP:NY bylaws allow for voting by proxy and participation in meetings via Skype. I'd like to be sure whatever constitution we end up with allows for that, so overseas residents may participate at member or board level with the least inconvenience and expense. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 13:24, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

Contributor involvement

1. How many people are currently involved in this project? How many of those are actively pursuing it?

   As listed on the content page Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 11:59, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

   All seven of them are active participants? Raystorm (talk) 14:37, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

   Yes with some more active than others. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 18:11, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

2. Are there any prominent Wiki[pm]edians in the group? What communities (projects) are they active in?

   We are Wikipedians mostly but edit others like Wikimedia Commons Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 11:59, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

   I am currently Wikipedian in Residence at Consumer Reports in the United States. Regardless of whether I continue to serve as resident in this organization, someone from Consumer Reports will likely be a member of Wikimedia Medicine because that organization is working to improve the quality of health articles on Wikipedia. Blue Rasberry (talk) 12:45, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

   I am wikipedian since 2007, campus ambassador at the Federal University of Rio de Janeiro, and member of Wikimedia Brasil (chapter to-be). Vinicius Siqueira (talk) 17:34, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

   Just to clarify: when you all say Wikipedia, do you mean English Wikipedia? Raystorm (talk) 14:31, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

   You can see all of Vini's edits here, more than 30,000 of which are in Portuguese. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 15:00, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

3. Do you have an overview of how many Wikimedians would like to join the organisation when founded?

   I am sure there will be some plus there will be a bunch of non-Wikipedians who will hopefully become Wikipedians with time. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 11:59, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

4. Are you planning to accept people from other countries, or only from the country of incorporation?

   Yes from all countries. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 11:59, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

   I have a question about the legal feasibility of this. Are there any particular restrictions in either Canada or the United States on having non-citizen voting members in a non-profit organization? I know nothing about this but I presume it has been discussed somewhere before. I ask this because I know that some countries, such as India, have laws which create barriers for any non-citizen to participate in organizational management. Blue Rasberry (talk) 12:36, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

   Canada did have a restriction but I think this is changing. The US I think does not. Many of the people on the board of the WMF are from other countries.Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 12:58, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

   To the best of my limited knowledge, there is no federal residency requirement, and state residency requirements vary. However, I believe that it is generally the case that no organization is required to have more than one resident on the board, and that most don't require even that, because what they're mostly concerned with is whether the organization is active in the state rather than whether a board member lives there. You normally need to have an "agent for service of process" (someone to receive paperwork if you get sued or subpoenaed) in the state, but that can be a law firm or a volunteer who knows how to reach a board member, rather than a board member. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:43, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

5. Have you done outreach throughout the projects to recruit interested people? Did you include other languages, besides English?

   Haven't done much outreach yet. Will do more eventually. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 11:59, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

   I have worked in health education in India for several years and I will be traveling there again in early 2013 to meet Wikimedians there, train the health educators whom I already know to use Wikipedia in their own languages, and otherwise promote Wikimedia projects and health education there. It is important to me personally that Indian people are included in this project and they can participate both in English and in local languages. Blue Rasberry (talk) 12:52, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

   Have placed a note on all medical Wikiprojects. Unfortunately most (all but 3 or 4) are more or less inactive. Hopefully we can help change that. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 15:29, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

6. Do you plan to accept only professionals? How would you define those?

   All people will be accepted. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 11:59, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

7. Was there a discussion with the potential membership to see whether they agree on the goals and the chosen legal structure? Is it available online, and where?

   The goals are those of Wikiproject Medicine which is to improve the quality of Wikipedia's medical content Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 11:59, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

   Those of the English Wikipedia Wikiproject, you mean? So, no general discussion? Raystorm (talk) 14:31, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

   General discussion is taking place here. So yes general discussion is occurring. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 15:02, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

We need to agree upon a form of words that concisely but comprehensively defines our goal here. I think we all share the same goal, but the form of words needs to be settled, by motion, on this talk page probably. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 13:24, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

History and activities

1. Could you give us a short overview of the time path of the founding up to now?

   The Wikimedia chapters are set up around countries. This does not make sense for many editors who are arrange around topic areas. Thus those of us interested in medicine discussed the creation of a thematic group when we where in Washington DC at Wikimania in 2012, or at least an organization with which to promote the goals of Wikiproject medicine. My local chapter Wikimedia Canada does not allow non Canadians for example. When I was speaking in Delhi and Kathmandu at medical school last year they where interested in joining an organization.

   Wikiproject medicine has of course been around since 2004 and the founder of the project is one of the members here. We have become the single most used medical source on the Internet both in terms of page views and in terms of unique visitors.

   A number of us have done outreach at Universities. Myself Jfdwolff will be speaking on the topic of medicine and Wikipedia in the UK in a couple of days.Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 12:59, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

2. Has the group done any activities or had any meetings to date? If so, could you provide some links to them?

   Yes we met informally during noon hour at Wikimania 2012. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 11:59, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

   WikiProject Medicine members met twice at Wikimania - once to discuss WikiProject Medicine and once to discuss the chapter. Blue Rasberry (talk) 12:39, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

3. What kind of activities are planned for the future of the organisation?

   We will continue on with our current partnerships such as that taking place with Translators Without Borders here [6]

   We hope to help create Wikipedians in residence at the World Health Organization in Geneva as well as the NLM

   I will continue giving lectures on how to become involved with Wikiproject medicine as I have done here [7]

   May look further at getting the Wikipedia Journal up and running.[8] as well as our current efforts to collaborate with journals [9] Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 11:59, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

   There are many proposed activities on the project page - Wikimedia Medicine. Blue Rasberry (talk) 12:41, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

4. Is there a mailing list? Is it public? Raystorm (talk) 14:56, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

   Yes we are using google groups. [10] I emailed to request a listserve one but no one ever got back to me.Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 15:03, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

   Have you tried opening a Bugzilla request? This might serve as an example on what to include in a request to succeed. Let me know if it doesn't help and we can help by prodding a few people :) --Bence (talk) 13:49, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

Other

1. How do you see the relationship and overlap between the thematic organization and the online wikiproject(s) medicine? For example, do you think the thematic organization has a role in editorial decisions on the online content? --Bence (talk) 13:45, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

   I see us listening to medicine wikiprojects, and I hope they will listen to us; I would hope that many people will be members of both; I don't see this project exerting any authority over individual wikis, but hopefully, if we listen to each other, there will be mutual influence. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 22:22, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

IRS paperwork

Do you have a notion of the expected budget size? If you incorporate in the US, have you considered whether you'll need to file Form 1023 to get federal tax exemption status? WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:50, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

No idea. I write off what I spend on Wikipedia as business expenses currently thus do not need tax exemption. US tax exemption does not help non Americans usually anyway. I have discussed the possibility of sending large donations through the WMF to which they have agreed in principle Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 18:09, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

So for background, since most people don't know how this works: non-profit status is actually achieved in your incorporation paperwork, where you declare that nobody gets to take the profits home at the end of the day. If you want donors to be able to deduct their gifts directly to this organization from their taxable income, and if you want the organization not to owe taxes on any net income, then you need to get that non-profit status formally recognized.

Form 1023 is the paperwork to request recognition from the IRS on behalf of the federal government. You would qualify under 501(c)3 as an educational organization. There will also be at least one set of paperwork for the state of incorporation (sometimes two, if they require separate filings for taxes and fraud prevention).

None of this paperwork is actually complicated, but it can be time-consuming. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:58, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

That is not entirely correct. As Doc James was saying, donations can be processed through an umbrella organization with charity status. Current options for this include the WMF itself or an existing US Wikimedia chapter, assuming that the incorporation is in the United States. It may or may not be more beneficial to have this organization be a registered charity in its own right. Non-profit status need not include the charity status conferred by Form 1023; for example, Wikimedia Medicine could be a non-profit organization, and not issue profits to anyone, and not owe taxes on income, but to be unable to issue tax receipts for gifts. It could ask that donations instead go to a charity, and then have that charity transfer funds to itself. One motive for this might be to not have a need for a separate accountant or office work to create two charities when one would suffice. Blue Rasberry (talk) 22:56, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

I have clarified my comments (underlined) about the tax deductibility of donations.

Even registered public charities owe income taxes for certain activities' "unrelated business income". Merely refusing "to issue profits to anyone" does not provide you with an exemption from corporate income taxes. If that were the case, then most Silicon Valley tech companies would owe no income taxes, because most of them don't pay dividends. The 501(c) code is about the exemption from corporate income taxes, not about the deductibility of donations. The text of that section begins, "An organization described in subsection (c) or (d) or section 401(a) shall be exempt from taxation under this subtitle..." It says nothing about donors. Form 1023's purpose is seeking IRS recognition of the organization's right to an exemption from federal income tax. WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:28, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

Non-profit organizations without this designation are still exempt from some kinds of taxes on some kinds of income. I presume that the organization will need this designation but I do not have the legal background to understand why or whether it is necessary immediately. Blue Rasberry (talk) 20:30, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

Perhaps I can arrange some sort of conference call with the lawyers involved with the incorporation to answer various questions including those involving the IRS paperwork.Peter.C (talk) 01:58, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

Please give an example of a tax you think a non-profit can avoid paying without getting formal recognition of its tax-exempt status. In my experience, organizations typically need to deal with these taxes: income (federal, state and sometimes local), capital gains, sales tax, and property tax. So far as I know, every federal tax exemption requires a successful IRS application for recognition, and every state and local tax exemption involves attaching a copy of that IRS determination letter (=the result of a successful 1023 application) to the state or local exemption paperwork.

It's true that if you're not handling money and don't own any property, that it's not important. But I think you may want to have some money, at least to pay for your incorporation paperwork and insurance for the Board members. WhatamIdoing (talk) 14:54, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

No one said anything about not getting formal recognition of tax-exempt status; the issue is which kind of exemption status is necessary when, and honestly that is a question for lawyers and not this board. Probably 501(c)(3) status is best immediately but there are other options. The US government grants different kinds of tax-exempt status to 501(c)(3) organizations and non-profits which do not have that designation. Non-profit organizations which are not charities do not have to pay taxes on some donations. Many small organizations without 501(c)(3) status collect a small amount of donations to manage their regular business. For example, a small nonprofit organization may collect $2000 a year to buy coffee and snacks for meetings but not pay taxes on that income. They could collect significantly more money that that and not pay taxes. An organization could get non-profit designation, not have 501(c)(3) designation, open a bank account and collect a certain amount of donations, use that bank account to manage its regular business, and not pay taxes. I have no idea what the donation limit is, but I would rather put donations into an organization than into anyone's personal finances even if it is a small amount of money like $2000 a year. I see having a small budget to buy coffee for in-person meetings and to reimburse phone charges for virtual meeting attendees to be essential because these things are basic courtesies to meeting participants. Blue Rasberry (talk) 15:19, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

No organization, profit or non-profit, pays taxes on donations to the organization. You pay taxes on profits, not revenue.

en:501(c) organization#Types has a complete list of the options for US federal tax exemption. This group easily qualifies under 501(c)(3) as an educational organization. I suppose you could attempt to re-cast it as a 501(c)(7) "recreational club", but it's not a natural fit.

The reason I asked about the budget is because 501(c)(3) status is more or less automatic for 501(c)(3)-qualifying organizations with annual gross revenue of less than $5,000. You would need formal recognition to receive grants from most private foundations, and the WMF might well insist, but if it's just a matter of paying for a few odds and ends (I'd add a post office box to your list), if your donors are diversified (so that you aren't boxed into re-designation as a private foundation), and if you don't have any donors/grantors who are picky about the paperwork, then you could fly under the radar.

Of course, all of this pre-supposes that a US corporation is wanted rather than a Canadian one, which might not ultimately be the case. And if you do a US corporation, then you'll have to check the state rules, which are different. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:37, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

We should leave open the possibility that we'll be handling millions of dollars per annum. We may be able to achieve everything on a shoestring and volunteers, but it will all happen much faster if we can employ talent when it's not readily available for free. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 01:12, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

Board members

All board members will be required to submit their full name and address for legal purposes. Perhaps we could set up a Google form that people can submit their info to? Also, positions will need to be decided. I will be able to work out more details next week as at the moment I am in Peru. Peter.C (talk) 19:56, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

Sounds good. Lets use a google spreadsheet. I will create one and share it with everyone here. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 21:44, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

Translation

Hello guys! Not easy to write in english (I only can read it and understand a little), wp:fr user in medical field, I found Translatewiki which seems to be linked with Wikimedia too. Why not use this tool to translate medical articles in WikiProject Medicine? Because of these two pages (WikiProject Medicine on wp:en and Wikimedia Medicine on meta), don't easily find news and place to connect and follow ;-P What is the best (place)? Regards --BonifaceFR (talk) 12:11, 22 August 2012 (UTC) please use fr:user:BonifaceFR to contact

I have not looked at Translatewiki and am not sure about its relationship to Wikipedia. Its use is definitely something we should consider.Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 15:54, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

Conference call

We all should talk with the lawyers who will be incorporating Wikimedia Med to ask our questions and work on a plan. When can we all do this? Is Wednesday at 2PM EST good for everyone? Peter.C (talk) 22:29, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

That's quite past my bedtime. Can I just put on the table:

• Provision must be made for overseas members to "attend" and vote at general and board meetings via Skype or similar. (The constitution of the New York chapter seems to allow for this.)
• All other things being equal, we should incorporate in the jurisdiction with the least ongoing taxes and fees.
• The drafters should be aware there is the possibility the corporation will be managing very large sums of money and reasonable provision should be made in its structure to ensure financial prudence, transparency and accountability.

--Anthonyhcole (talk) 23:55, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

I agree with everything Anthonyhcole says. 2pm Wednesday EST is good for me. Also, I work with a New York-based non-profit organization called Consumer Reports in official capacity as their Wikipedian. Although staff other than me are not active Wikipedia users, everyone in the organization has a lot of interest in getting more involved in Wikipedia in general and health articles in particular. Would anyone have any objection to my inviting someone else from Consumer Reports to join me in this call? Blue Rasberry (talk) 00:42, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

It's as good a time for me as any, though I believe it is 10pm here, which might not suit others as well as if it were a little earlier. Presumably the conference call will be over the Internet? Rich Farmbrough 02:49 28 August 2012 (GMT).

I'm at a conference these days and not sure whether I'll find a way to go online then (8pm here), but online should still be easier than via phone. -- Daniel Mietchen - WiR/OS (talk) 06:58, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

I am in the UK right now. Thus my schedule is a little all over the place. We should be able to address most of the legal questions on meta yes? Would the lawyers be able / willing to provide comments here? Can you provide a link to a clock which says if it is 2 pm EST what time is it everywhere else in the world? Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 09:09, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

= 7pm in the UK (unless I've done something wrong). —MistyMorn (talk) 09:29, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

The problem is the lawyers do not wish to reply to questions online as they do not fully have an understanding of the needs of our organization and it could present problems later on for them,however; I think after a few weeks of talking to them they would be more than happy to reply on long.Peter.C (talk) 16:24, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

Coordination

We should decide on platforms for communication. A disadvantage with online communication is that it could exclude people who do not use particular software. One easy phone option is http://www.freeconferencecall.com/. With this service, people from most countries can quickly join a conference call by calling a local number. Unless someone has a better idea, I propose using this service for the call tomorrow.

1. Determine the time of the call in your area - converter
2. Dial your local number
   1. United States +1 209 255 1000
   2. United Kingdom +44 (0) 784 843 2913
   3. Germany +49 (0) 977 231 6000
   4. Switzerland +41 (0) 44 595 9080
3. give the pass code - 791226#
4. join conference

Will this work for tomorrow? If not, then what platform will we use? Blue Rasberry (talk) 18:33, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

Regret I will be unavailable. Would the host please make and post an audio recording as shown here? That would serve the whole "radical transparency" goal and also help keep everyone on the same page. LeadSongDog (talk) 20:11, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

I will likely be exploring London or on a train tomorrow. But if people wish to meet. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 22:03, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

Funding

Recently there was a call for volunteers to join the body that disburses Foundation funds to chapters etc. Does anybody know where that body's home page is? --Anthonyhcole (talk) 11:26, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

Funds Dissemination Committee Blue Rasberry (talk) 13:20, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 14:57, 28 August 2012 (UTC)