User:COIBot/LinkReports

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Wikimedia Foundation Resolution: Licensing policy (WMFR:LP)

Per Wikimedia Foundation Resolution: Licensing policy, quoted policy is approved by the Wikimedia Foundation Board of Trustees to apply to all Wikimedia projects. It may not be circumvented, eroded, or ignored by local policies.

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Applicable definitions

Project

A specific Wikimedia Foundation project in a certain language or a multilingual project, such as English Wikipedia, French Wikisource, or Meta.

Free Content License

A license which meets the terms of the Definition of Free Cultural Works specific to licenses, as can be found at http://freedomdefined.org/Definition version 1.0.

Exemption Doctrine Policy (EDP)

A project-specific policy, in accordance with United States law and the law of countries where the project content is predominantly accessed (if any), that recognizes the limitations of copyright law (including case law) as applicable to the project, and permits the upload of copyrighted materials that can be legally used in the context of the project, regardless of their licensing status. Examples include: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Non-free_content and http://pl.wikinews.org/wiki/Wikinews:Dozwolony_u%C5%BCytek.

Resolution

Whereas the mission of the Wikimedia Foundation is to "empower and engage people around the world to collect and develop educational content under a free content license,"

1. All projects are expected to host only content which is under a Free Content License, or which is otherwise free as recognized by the 'Definition of Free Cultural Works' as referenced above.
2. In addition, with the exception of Wikimedia Commons, each project community may develop and adopt an EDP. Non-free content used under an EDP must be identified in a machine-readable format so that it can be easily identified by users of the site as well as re-users.
3. Such EDPs must be minimal. Their use, with limited exception, should be to illustrate historically significant events, to include identifying protected works such as logos, or to complement (within narrow limits) articles about copyrighted contemporary works. An EDP may not allow material where we can reasonably expect someone to upload a freely licensed file for the same purpose, such as is the case for almost all portraits of living notable individuals. Any content used under an EDP must be replaced with a freely licensed work whenever one is available which will serve the same educational purpose.
4. Media used under EDPs are subject to deletion if they lack an applicable rationale. They must be used only in the context of other freely licensed content.
5. For the projects which currently have an EDP in place, the following action shall be taken:
   • As of March 23, 2007, all new media uploaded under unacceptable licenses (as defined above) and lacking an exemption rationale should be deleted, and existing media under such licenses should go through a discussion process where it is determined whether such a rationale exists; if not, they should be deleted as well.
6. For the projects which currently do not have an EDP in place, the following action shall be taken:
   • As of March 23, 2007, any newly uploaded files under an unacceptable license shall be deleted.
   • The Foundation resolves to assist all project communities who wish to develop an EDP with their process of developing it.
   • By March 23, 2008, all existing files under an unacceptable license as per the above must either be accepted under an EDP, or shall be deleted.

Passed with 7 supporting, 23 March 2007.

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Discussion

Edit point 1

Smaller wiki: Wikis that do not have the community size large enough to self-govern. This definition can be expanded.

Commons-only upload guide: Commons:Turning off local uploads

Smaller wikis are typically a graveyard of copyrighted content - often orphaned copyrighted content. These wikis disregard the above WMF resolution. This may be because the local community may lack anyone with enough experience to handle copyright. Stewards and global admins are unable to maintain hundreds of wikis that do not wish to self-govern.

Also some wikis are even used as a free webhost. Furthermore there are wikis that have content to supplement cyber attacks where defacement attacks post files.

Therefore I propose file uploads to all of the smaller wikis be disabled until they can demonstrate they are willing to and are capable of self-govern. Until then commons should be used. This would also allow the local communities to experience commons procedures and know-how on copyrights so that it can be adopted locally.

-- とある白い猫 ^chi? 09:12, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

If this is a problem, and I am not saying it is or isn't as I have no involvement in this area, it seems sensible enough, particularly when we already try to encourage the use of commons over local uploads. What would happen to locally uploaded files that were uploaded previously tho? Also, this probably needs some kind of centralnotice+global spambot etc to get input from everything if this is to be implemented. Snowolf ^{How can I help?} 09:31, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

Existing files are a problem and needs to be dealt with. A good number are copyrighted and even free ones are typically not properly marked. I am not saying that existing files are problem-free but the main concern behind this post is to prevent the matter from getting worse. Deployment of a language edition of a project comes in two phases currently. First it needs to mature in the incubator, and then it is migrated to its subdomain. With this proposal a third phase would be the enabling of local file uploads if the local wiki requests it. Perhaps stewards would be given the ability to "enable/disable" file uploads for the entire wiki. -- とある白い猫 ^chi? 10:30, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

Can you give examples of projects which problematic? John Vandenberg (talk) 09:43, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

Is there a list of projects which have an Exemption Doctrine Policy (EDP)? e.g. Some wikinews allow fair use, but only three have a fair use policy linked to the English policy. I dont see a fair use policy for wikinews:fa:پرونده:Afghan-sheea.jpg or wikinews:de:Datei:Veroeffentilchung der Staatsanwaltschaft in Griechenland Amtliches Werk - Foto Polizei GR.jpg. John Vandenberg (talk) 09:58, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

Yes, Non-free content. Nemo 10:53, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

I can give many examples but I really do not want to "single" any wiki out. The assessments should be based on a case-by-case basis. Questions I would ask are:

1. Does the wiki have a sizable community that can and is willing to process such content/How stable is this if a few users decide to retire/How many files does the wiki have per active administrator?
2. Does the wiki's users have a good understanding in copyright/Are there active experienced users that handle copyrighted content?
3. Does the wiki have a process that deal with new uploads? On en.wikipedia for example new uploads are checked if they have a valid license and/or a source (if needed)
4. Does the wiki have a process that deal with non-free content? On en.wikipedia for example fair-use content not used in articles are promptly marked by bots. Likewise each use of non-free content on articles requires a rationale notice.
5. Does the wiki have a process that deal with copyrighted content/Is the wiki a graveyard of (orphaned) copyrighted files?

Anybody can translate an en.wikipedia policy but that alone is insufficient to consider a "wiki" ready to self-govern on file uploads.

-- とある白い猫 ^chi? 14:12, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

I don't see how translating a policy can be enough. The EDP will usually have to follow the "local law" most users of the wiki are subject to, include things which aren't included in the anglo-centric en.wiki EDP, explain why that stuff is needed on the wiki etc. Practically speaking, very few wikis made one, which proves the point. Checking existing EDPs, if they make sense and they're respected, would be a later step; there's so much to do now that this is not needed for the first huge batch of cleanup. If you had to ask those questions, not even it.wiki would be able to keep local upload, as it's always had at most 2-3 users active in the area, sometimes 1, sometimes 0; I'd personally like it.wiki to close local upload but such criteria won't work. Nemo 14:22, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

EDP must enforce Flordia & US Federal Law first, then additional restrictions for local use can be considered. I am more worried about some of the wikis with fewer than 10K articles rather than it.wikipedia. Also "local law" can be controversial for languages such as Spanish, Portuguese, French and etc. where the language is spoken in different countries. -- とある白い猫 ^chi? 14:53, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

• I think it's very easy to implement (technically and conceptually): all wikis have local upload disabled, unless they have an EDP in place, which proves the need for local upload (non free-files) and the presence of the needed infrastracture (templates, copyright geeks etc.). Local upload is very hard to manage and very, very few wikis do it properly (the licensing policy is not respected at all); on the other hand, Commons serves all wikis very well providing a very nice and easy to use infrastructure without setups hassles. The Upload Wizard is a good incentive to use Commons and the local upload links should point to it. Nemo 10:53, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

• As a representative of a smaller wiki I think this is a terrible idea. en.wikibooks has a very serious need for things like screen shots of non free software in books explaining the use of the software. In response to Nemo's comment, I find the upload wizard by far over simplified when it comes to copyright issues, and it seems to be getting worse as years go on. It used to be fairly easy to indicate in the wizard concepts like "my work is a derived work of a work available under license XXX. This is the original author, and appropriate attribution (a link, etc)." My last upload to commons was exactly this type, but the over simplified interface no longer gave an easy way to express this, but it used to be as simple as a pull down menu. But now I am off topic. We have no way to verify someones knowledge/understanding of copyright laws or really keep tabs on how many such users are active on any given wiki. So any decisions made on such criteria are just building houses on sand. Overall I think this would damage several smaller communities. Thenub314 (talk) 16:10, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
  • I would not call en.wikibooks a small wiki. It is the LARGEST wikibooks project. It also does not have a graveyard of orphaned files. -- とある白い猫 ^chi? 17:34, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
• I support this proposal. On many (probably: most) small wikis, there is no control at all whether uploaded files are license-conform. On Incubator, we have already disabled local uploading for some years now and ask people to upload on Commons; also, in requests for new languages the test-contributors are nowadays asked whether local updates should be allowed or not. – For the start, we could consider to disable uploading on every global sysop wiki which does not have any local files (except the logo, maybe); that would not impact many people and prevent upload "vandalism". --MF-W 16:33, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

• On "my" wiki we have local upload and no EDP. We are even more strict in our interpretation of CR than Commons. (All uploads and texts have to follow the law of Sweden or Finland beside the US law.) My experience is that the bureaucracy on Commons (it takes weeks to do a speedy-delete) and the technical problems (confusing uploadwizards), sometimes makes it necessary to have an alternative to Commons, at least temporary until the problems on Commons are solved. The community of Commons have very little understanding of what is in scope on our type of project. Some deletes has been made since it is not considered in scope of Wikipedia. Even if our community is small, we have a system of templates, and a bot running daily to detect unlicensed contributions. Do I support this proposal? - No, not until we have made Commons a better place! -- Lavallen 16:59, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
  • If "your" wiki is not a graveyard of copyrighted files, this proposal would not affect you. It takes YEARS to identify copyrighted content on some of the smaller wikis. -- とある白い猫 ^chi? 17:38, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
    • Also I do not see why you cannot use the simple form. I use that. -- とある白い猫 ^chi? 17:48, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

• Complete support for this proposal per above. Disabling local uploading on global sysop wikis without an active admin community would work very well for preventing copyright violations, and it wouldn't be hard for those projects to enable local uploading if they are ever in a position to manage it well. Ajraddatz (Talk) 17:00, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

• May I ask why file-copyviolation is considered worse than text-copyviolations? The latter is much more frequent than the first! -- Lavallen 17:08, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

  The latter is also much harder to outright prevent than the first. We have the opportunity to significantly reduce image copyvios, so let's do it. Ajraddatz (Talk) 17:19, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

  • (Edit conflict.) What is your source for that statement? I'm not saying that it isn't true, but I've never seen any figures. Personally, I mainly see image copyright violation, but that's because I'm mainly editing pages related to the file namespace. --Stefan2 (talk) 17:49, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

• I'd support this (disclosure: I'm a Commons admin). Basically, Commons is there as Wikimedia's central media repository. Almost by definition, a "small wiki" is one too small to have run into the areas Commons doesn't cover (Fair Use), or to be effectively able to manage differences in licensing policy compared to Commons (eg differences in interpretation of "public domain"). So turning this off by default for such wikis makes absolute sense: the burden of proof should be on small communities to show that (i) they need local uploads and (ii) they can effectively manage them, such that the benefits outweigh the costs. Even some very large wikis manage to do without local uploads, so it isn't necessary for small wikis to do so in general. Specific instances may arise where small wikis do need local uploads (does Wikibooks, mentioned above, count as small?) - so let them make a case that they need it turned on. Rd232 (talk) 17:32, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

• Comment: (1) Restricting uploads to Commons is I think a non-starter. Commons is already woefully behind in keeping up with deletion requests (see six month backlog). (2) The criteria here that a project needs to demonstrate ability to self govern; en.wikipedia fails this requirement as is. There are enforcement attempts, but actual compliance is absent. Violations of the local EDP are rampant and essentially ignored. Bots supporting EDP operations are broken or otherwise inoperative. Editors who attempt to uphold the policy are relentlessly hounded (not surprising) and not supported by those in charge of self governance (not surprising either, but creates an environment where the resolution above can not be upheld). The non-free image count on en.wikipedia is now 442k, and rising at a rate of over 100 images per day over the last year, percentage wise at a rate faster than article creation. En.wikipedia is no longer capable of stemming the tide, and as a whole they frankly do not care anymore. Long experienced editors are routinely violating aspects of the EDP, without anyone raising even the slightest alarm. Examples:
  • An editor of a year's experience and 7000 edits [1] adds 25 non-free logos to a table listing companies [2], violating local EDP policy #8 and #3, and guideline at w:WP:NFTABLE.
  • An editor with 3500 edits spread out over nearly seven years [3] adds a non-free image to a template [4], violating local EDP policy #9
  • Local EDP #10c violations, requiring a rationale for each use of a non-free item number roughly 10k.
• En.wikipedia simply doesn't care about the EDP policy anymore. So, pass this resolution if you must, but understand that en.wikipedia wouldn't pass this metric and should not be upheld as a scion of how it should be done. Neither is shifting the burden of monitoring uploads to Commons going to be effective. --Hammersoft (talk) 17:44, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
  • En.wikipedia is hardly a small wiki. En.wikipedia DOES enforce how non-free images are used. It meets all the criteria above. -- とある白い猫 ^chi? 17:53, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
    • Some people attempt to enforce how non-free images are used, but there are too few of those of us who do, so the backlog of violations is constantly increasing. --Stefan2 (talk) 18:08, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
      • Even so, smaller wikis do not even have a backlog and the issue will permanently remain a problem on them under status quo. A backlog by definition eventually will be addressed. -- とある白い猫 ^chi? 18:18, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
        • If nobody ever addresses a backlog, it remains a backlog. If the amount of work being applied to reduce a backlog is smaller than the 'work' that is increasing the backlog, the backlog will never be cleared. This is the case at en.wikipedia. --Hammersoft (talk) 19:28, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
          • This proposal was not intended to address the issues of the largest wiki in existence. Instead it is intended to cover "smaller wikis". You are welcome to start a separate RFC if you like but this really is not the right median. -- とある白い猫 ^chi? 19:50, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
            • My point was that the standards being established here would not be passed by en.wikipedia, and upholding it as a scion of how it should be done would be fraught with problems. I am not experienced with other language editions. However, if en.wikipedia is not capable of handling the problem outlined by this proposal, I doubt any project can. That point, plus the reality that Commons can't accept the burden being proposed here, as they are already heavily backlogged. --Hammersoft (talk) 20:34, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
              • No en.wikipedia would qualify as it even fulfills each and every one of the 5 questions I posted above. This proposal would not be a burden to commons. These small wikis get few uploads each which combines to hundreds of different backlogs. Just reviewing if each wiki has a new upload or not is a demanding task which involves over 100 tabs. Once the image is identified the user needs adminship of some sort to delete the files. There are very few global admins and stewards to handle the massive backlog on hundreds of wikis. Migrating the problem to one location would help resolve it. -- とある白い猫 ^chi? 21:15, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
• (Edit conflict.) I largely support this proposal. I understand that the idea isn't to remove local uploads from large projects (such as the Italian Wikipedia), but to remove it from very small projects where no one seems to care about copyrights at all. While I assume that all projects with local uploads violate wmf:Resolution:Licensing policy (e.g., fair use images on French Wikipedia tend to lack a fair use rationale while fair use on English Wikipedia sometimes isn't "minimal"), the purpose seems to prevent more serious violations. There have been numerous discussions on the English Village pump on Commons lately about projects ignoring copyrights, and it would be very good to solve this. For example, upon visiting a small project, I remember seeing a welcoming template on my talk page containing an image with neither source nor licence. I looked a bit more and saw that the same image also appeared further up on the page in the MediaWiki:Sitenotice section of the page. Since only admins can edit that page, I got the impression that copyright violations were supported by admins on that project.

If projects are forced to resign local uploads, we would need to define some criteria for determining when to disable uploads. Apart from uploads covered by an EDP, there are additional cases where images may be kept locally while being ineligible for Commons. For example, English Wikipedia has templates such as en:Template:PD-US-1923-abroad, en:Template:FoP-USonly and en:Template:PD-ineligible-USonly which suggest that an image is free in the United States but not in the source country. Such images would be "free" in the Wikipedia way of thinking but aren't free enough for Commons. Requiring an EDP in order to enable local uploads might not be sufficient. On the other hand, I would like to see some reasonable image use policy and see that policy enforced in practice. --Stefan2 (talk) 17:49, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

• I basically support the proposal. Many small wikis are left just as fiefdoms of one or two admins, and they should adopt the FU policy and not just to upload everything they want.--Ymblanter (talk) 18:07, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

  Smaller projects should be notified of this discussion, and we may want to translate parts of it.--Ymblanter (talk) 18:07, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

• Agreed. --Hammersoft (talk) 19:28, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

• I am strongly opposed to this proposal. It appears yet another case of Commons expanding its scope while simultaneously reducing its usefulness to the projects it was intended to support. As the commons community has a history of acting without an understanding of the goals and missions of the projects its actions affect, it should confine its judgments and influences to its own wiki.. - Amgine/^{meta wikt wnews blog wmf-blog goog news} 20:48, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

  Every wiki with a community would be free not to use Commons also under this proposal. --MF-W 20:51, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

  But only if Commons agrees they qualify as a community. - Amgine/^{meta wikt wnews blog wmf-blog goog news} 20:54, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

  Commons will not decide. This does not expand commons' scope one bit as project scope of all Wikimedia wiki's and more are within the scope of Commons already. This decision would be discussed through meta discussions. Just like "requests for new languages" a similar process like "requests for local uploads". Stewards would play a role whom the community has elected to handle the very missions of projects. Bottom line is it is impossible to enforce the WMF resolution with the current setup. -- とある白い猫 ^chi? 21:12, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

  To be honest "Requests for local uploads" seem overdone. Just do it like the opt-out from global sysops. --MF-W 21:23, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

  I mean for new languages. They would start with uploads being disabled initially. No wikis uploads would be disabled overnight. Wikis would be asked to take the required measures. If they fail to respond or comply as required, only then local upload would be disabled. It is very important to establish the minimum standard required that constitutes as sufficient to allow the local wiki to self-govern local uploads. -- とある白い猫 ^chi? 21:30, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

  No in both cases: it should (at worst) be default opt-out.

  Here is the reason for this particular case: If a community *was* active, and is currently not active, this does not mean they will not be active in the future. But this proposal would pre-emptively remove their (current) ability to upload locally, no matter how hard-won and well-supported that privilege was earned. A large hurdle for the community's mission may be re-instated, a second time they will have to needlessly argue for what may (in some project's scope) be a really obvious functionality. Example: very few of the Wikinews projects have upload privileges, yet they are the least affected by copyright.

  It seems to me that if this were not a power grab/scope creep by commons community members, it would not be solely proposed by commons members nor argued in support solely by commons members. - Amgine/^{meta wikt wnews blog wmf-blog goog news} 21:38, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

  This proposal aims at wikis like omwiki, tiwiktionary, kiwiki, iawiktionary where it's ATM simply very hard and unnecessary work to build up the whole "upload infrastructure" with info pages, license info, files for deletion etc. And therefore local uploads there should be discouraged there, as nobody is there to check copyrights etc. Once there would be a group of users who wish to have local uploads and/or an Exemption Doctrine Policy, they could request that and get that (after having voted locally of course). On a side note, I support this proposal and have 69 edits on Commons. --MF-W 22:58, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

  Regardless of which wikis this proposal may be targeting, it will affect all WMF wikis. I agree the "upload infrastructure" is an overwhelming hurdle for most small communities; especially those for whom commons is not a supportive tool. This policy will do nothing to help them, but rather only alienate the members of those small communities who will rightly feel targeted and harrassed - second class wikimedians. - Amgine/^{meta wikt wnews blog wmf-blog goog news} 23:48, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

  The alternative is let these wikis be copyrighted file graveyards. Copyright should be taken seriously by everyone. In my view, the wikis in question would have still been in the incubator had incubator exist so far back ago. Should incubator projects feel like they are third class wikis, languages? There are reasons why "incubator" came to exist. -- とある白い猫 ^chi? 11:19, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

  Yes, copyright should be taken seriously by everyone, as should other rights. In the United States the right to a free press has been recognized by the constitution, courts, and law as greater than the copyright. Full stop.

  Should incubator projects feel like they are third class wikis, languages? Yes, of course they should, because we have defined them as such. Stating the unutterably obvious as a rhetorical question does not alter the state in the slightest. - Amgine/^{meta wikt wnews blog wmf-blog goog news} 15:21, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

  Free press? How is that relevant? The US constitution offers no protection to Wikimedia Foundation against Intellectual Property lawsuits.

  I disagree. I believe incubator has a purpose. I do not think anyone feels "lowly" of other projects just because they have not matured out of the incubator project yet.

  -- とある白い猫 ^chi? 15:56, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

  Wikimedia Foundation Resolution: Licensing policy is approved by the Wikimedia Foundation Board of Trustees to apply to all Wikimedia projects. It may not be circumvented, eroded, or ignored by local policies. Any wiki making an effort to deliberately disregard the WMFR:LP even after warnings risk to have their local uploads revoked with all problematic files be deleted. We cannot have local wikis opt-out of this if they deliberately want to disregard WMFR:LP. -- とある白い猫 ^chi? 23:07, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

  As you may be aware, I was involved in the creation and adoption of the en.Wikinews FU policy which was approved by the Board in 2005, some years prior to the EDP, which allowed uploads for the first time on the Wikinews project. I am somewhat conversant with the issues involved as the effort required six months and a legal brief. I am also aware that in your opinion some wikis may make a deliberate effort to disregard the WMFR:LP, but it is possibly slanderous, defaming, and of course rude to state they are doing so. You of course are not being abrasive, I just thought I should point out the difference between your Point Of View and factual statements. - Amgine/^{meta wikt wnews blog wmf-blog goog news} 23:34, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

  I haven't accused you of anything personally. I am more concerned with bla.wikipedia projects with something like 10 or fewer (as low as 0) active users which are a graveyard of copyrighted content. There are wikis that that are reluctant or even outright hostile towards people asking them to sort out their local copyright mess. We have also seen wikis were the local community say they will deal with the issue but they never do. -- とある白い猫 ^chi? 10:35, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

  Your statement, in my opinion, is filled with POVioring. Allow me to do express some of how you sound to me:

  • something like 10 or fewer (as low as 0) = "this is too small to be able to police itself, and will never be able to do so." (it is also too small to do great damaage, isn't it?)
  • which are a graveyard of copyrighted content = "have more than 0 copyrighted files which I feel do not meet any fair use defense, and will not be addressed in a timely fashion as defined by me."
  • There are wikis that that are reluctant or even outright hostile towards people = "I am in a position to objectively judge the motivations and goals of entire communities who speak languages I do not and/or have differing ethos and mores from my own by their interpersonal communications with främling, and my judgment should be widely accepted (and communicated.)"
  • asking them to sort out = "when I tell them how to run their community".
  • their local copyright mess. = "Have more than 0 copyrighted files which I feel do not meet any fair use defense, and will not be addressed in a timely fashion as defined by me."
  • We have also seen = "I speak as the GodBoss from a position of omniscience and the third person."
  • wikis were[sic] the local community say they will deal with the issue but they never do. = "wikis which do not act homogenously to implement what I feel are the correct processes on my timeline which I have imposed on them."

  - Amgine/^{meta wikt wnews blog wmf-blog goog news} 15:21, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

  Your misinterpretation of my remarks is distressing. I will not reply to any such posts beyond this one in the future. -- とある白い猫 ^chi? 15:56, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

• I support this in principle but I don't want to impose it harshly right away. Currently upload is enabled by default, and disabled on all wikinewses and 19 other wikis. I propose to disable it by default, after putting a global notice saying like "Local uploads will be disabled by default. If your community wants to keep it enabled, request it [here]." So any wiki which still wants uploading enabled can say so easily. After that, we have a clear view on which wikis have uploads enabled and we can see how to deal with those. SPQRobin (talk) 23:56, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

• This could be a good step to disable uploads on wikis that lack an active community willing to react. What would we accept as a valid request? -- とある白い猫 ^chi? 10:35, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

Would this be an acceptable draft proposal:

• Put a global notice saying something like "Local uploads will be disabled by default. If your community wants to keep it enabled, request it [here]."
• Disable uploads on wikis that do not reply to the global notice or volunteer to get uploads disabled.
• Deal with the wikis that requested to keep uploads but have not addressed the issue of copyrighted files.

We may need an exception list so as not to generate unwanted traffic. Commons itself would be exempt from this proposal for example.

-- とある白い猫 ^chi? 11:58, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

Please don't make any exceptions for specific wikis. In that case, small wikis would complain about bullying from above. Either require all projects (except possibly Commons) to confirm that they want to continue to have local uploads or scrap the proposal. --Stefan2 (talk) 12:18, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

Fair point. I just am rather worried about the logistics. -- とある白い猫 ^chi? 12:22, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

• I think the proposal seems problematic. Is the problem ("small wikis typically ...") real or only perceived? Turning off local upload for small projects using it would probably alienate the users, especially if done without a discussion in the language of the project. If in fact most media violating WMF policy is uploaded on big projects, then the action would, in addition, indeed be unfair.

I would like to see some analysis about whether the problem is real and whether it concerns many or only a few projects, before any decision is made - in fact the discussion is premature without the analysis. Turning on uploads for new projects only on request and discussing closing local upload for projects where it seems problematic might be reasonable as a safeguard, but making projects change there way of working need justification.

The small project where I am active does have a handful of administrators and the activity is small enough that I personally can check every edit when not on vacation or similar. I cannot see how the upload function could be abused. On the other hand we might not have resources for the bureaucracy probably needed for turning on local uploads (if a simple request would not be enough). Making a request would be harder for projects with few English speakers.

--LPfi (talk) 10:31, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

What would be hostile is if I list the wikis. You can go to any of the smaller wikis and look at their uploaded files. You will see many (even orphaned) files that do not come with a license of which a good deal are movie posters, cd covers, movie screenshots, publicity photos and other obviously copyrighted content. Users can still upload to commons and also get their upload capability re-enabled if they are willing to handle copyright. Mind you the community may have 0 users so in that case no one is alienated. With 0 w:sv:Special:Oanvända filer (orphan files), 0 w:sv:Special:Okategoriserade filer (uncategorized files) and 94 sysops your wiki (sv.wikipedia) has nothing to worry about. -- とある白い猫 ^chi? 10:35, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

And with 0 files and no enabled upload page, this proposal wouldn't affect the Swedish Wikipedia in any way. Local uploads have been disabled for ages: everything has to go to Commons. --Stefan2 (talk) 12:15, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

The only Swedish projects with any kind of problem in this is wikibooks. I am not aware of any copyvios there, but there is almost no record of what licence the files are under. -- Lavallen 08:36, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

By their nature, I do not expect wikibooks projects to be all that problematic. sv.wikibooks seems to have 333 files that may perhaps be uploaded to commons. Playing cards seem to be marked with GFDL, I am not sure if that is correct as these are either fully copyrighted or PD. I have seen this pattern of cards IRL before. -- とある白い猫 ^chi? 09:27, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

That is the small project I mentioned (the Swedish Wikipedia certainly qualifies as a big project: 11th wp, close to 500k articles). The images are mostly old. They seem not to be too problematic copyrightwise, but would be deleted at Commons (bad licence and source information, e.g. the cards may be from some GPL game). We discussed the matter recently and decided new images should go to Commons only, unless there is a special reason, but kept the possibility to upload locally as it is unproblematic and might be needed in the future. I can imagine there are many projects like sv:wikisource: small but well maintained projects that use local uploads. --LPfi (talk) 09:46, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

A local wiki can indeed make such a decision. If the local/small wiki is responsible enough to self-govern on copyright they do not have anything to worry. My comment in regards to sv.wikibooks file content is that they can be transwikied to commons which would be nice but this isn't something required. Playing cards may be an issue though I am not sure. Either way at a glance I do not see any speedy delete-able content on sv.wikibooks. On the problematic wikis I can find 50 copyvios under 10 minutes without paying too much attention. That is what I would be more worried about. -- とある白い猫 ^chi? 11:59, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

What I see as a problem is the technical and cultural problems at Commons. That project has forgotten to "Keep it simple", and they forget that there are other projects than en/de/fr/ru.wikipedia. -- Lavallen 12:08, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

Those would not lead to lawsuits though. -- とある白い猫 ^chi? 12:13, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

Edit point 2

I would have to oppose this proposal as it stands. Commons works well for files that I have created myself. However I live in fear that even these files will be deleted when some zealot notices that the date in my digital camera is not always set correctly. For files that others have asked me to upload it doesn't work at all. I now politely decline such requests.

I have tried to work out how the system is supposed to work, and failed. I have even considered falsely claiming that photos taken, for example, by my cousin at my request were actually taken by me, but it doesn't seem worth the hassle. I now ask her to hand me the camera, and if I'm not there to do that, I don't use the photo.

It's a shame.

English Wikipedia is even worse, but that's another story.

The solution to the abuse of WikiMedia resources is not to close down the facilities that these smaller wikis use and value, thereby possibly extinguishing some of them completely. The solution is to provide viable alternatives, and then, and only then, to close these loopholes, once the reasonable use of them has ceased. Andrewa (talk) 19:54, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

I have never heard of a deletion nomination based on meta data alone. Could you link to this? -- とある白い猫 ^chi? 20:59, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

Straw man. The problem is that there is (probably justified) fear about how the precautionary principle of Commons will work in the future, when "some zealot notices" [whatever].

(I am sure there have been cases where perfectly legal images have been deleted because they have been republished elsewhere without mentioning the licence or Commons as the source. If the image is watchlisted by Commons regulars the deletion might be stopped, but otherwise it might slip by.)

--LPfi (talk) 10:01, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

Local communities will either have to deal with commons or sort out their copyright issues locally. A lot of people complain about how commons take copyright "way too seriously" when this is what we want local wikis to do locally as well. Nobody is claiming local communities are malicious, they simply may not have anyone experienced with copyright. Also there are a lot of countries where IP laws aren't exactly enforced which only leads to such communities lacking interest in copyright enforcement. This is why I feel these local communities can gain a lot by experiencing commons for a while. -- とある白い猫 ^chi? 12:10, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

Proposal

I know that discussion usually leads to little result, so I'll make a specific proposal of what I mentioned above:

• Currently upload is enabled by default, and disabled on all wikinewses and some 19 other wikis.
• I propose to put a global notice for logged in users on all WMF projects (except commons and enwiki/dewiki/ruwiki/itwiki) saying like "Local uploads will be disabled by default. If your community wants to keep it enabled, request it [here]." So any wiki which still wants uploading enabled can say so easily, without having to meet any requirements.
  • Exceptions: Commons because.. duh, and enwiki/dewiki/ruwiki/itwiki because they have by far the most files (+100,000) and I don't see any chance they would disable uploads. If easily possible, the notice would also not be displayed on wikis that already disabled it (wikinewses and some more).
• We disable uploads by default, except for enwiki and all wikis that requested upload to be still enabled (and I suppose private wikis too).

This will certainly not completely deal with the issue, but it would be a big step forward without much controversy I hope.

Yes/no? SPQRobin (talk) 21:21, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

• Yes! Support. Reasons are already stated above. To note that any community can of course also later "get back" the possibility to make local uploads. --MF-W 21:47, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
• Query: Why default opt-in? It sounds like you do not trust the local community to make the 'right' decision, but you trust the much larger community to do so on their behalf. Perhaps instead of edicts and prescriptions, communities which have a range of copyvios (digression: are there any communities which have this described situation? it has been asked several times already for evidence that this is a real and not imagined problem) should be encouraged to acknowledge there is an issue and offered the opportunity to ask their uploads be turned off? - Amgine/^{meta wikt wnews blog wmf-blog goog news} 04:54, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
•  Support as first step; but projects with an EDP should be assumed to have interest in keeping local upload (although review might be needed), to reduce paperwork. Nemo 07:21, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

Proposal 2

1. Disable editing on every and any wikimedia-project where you can find a copyvio, text or image, remaining for longer than one week. Seb az86556 (talk) 23:22, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

   I would like to see an audit undertaken before small wikis are treated as criminals. A week is too short; and I think it is reasonable that they copyvio should be brough to the attention of a local sysop (talk page or central copyvio discussion page) before we say the wiki has a problem. John Vandenberg (talk) 04:34, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

   I wasn't talking about small wikis. I was talking about every wiki. This naturally means en.wiki will be included since they break the law at any given moment. I agree that sippenhaft is morally wrong and repulsive, but if such an approach is to be taken, as this proposal clearly says, then everyone needs to be held accountable for the crimes of some. Seb az86556 (talk) 06:16, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

2. 2bis – disable editing on any wiki where trollish "proposals 2" are posted (I think the result would be the same?). :-p Nemo 07:19, 12 May 2012 (UTC)