Meta:Babel

Note: If you seek the language competence templates, see Meta:Babel templates.

This is Meta's general and policy discussion page (post a comment); for discussions about multilingualism or translation, see the translator's noticeboard. If your comment relates to a matter relevant to a particular page, please post it there and only place a link with a brief description here.

Armãneashti: Cãndu comentarlu-a vostru easte ligat cu vãrã frãndzã spetsialã, Vã-plãcãrsim s-u publicats aclo shi sade s-bãgats ligãturã cu unã descriptsia shcurtã aoatse.

Беларуская: Калі гэта толькі магчыма, калі ласка, пакідайце свае каментарыі непасрэдна на старонцы «Talk» адпаведнага артыкулу Вікі, а на дадзенай старонцы пакідайце толькі спасылку туды.

Brezhoneg : E kement ha ma c'hallit en ober, laoskit ho kemennadennoù war bajenn gaozeal ar pennad zo e kaoz, ha na skrivit amañ nemet ur gerig displegañ gant ul liamm.

Català : En la mesura del possible, deixeu el vostre missatge a la plana de discussió de l'article corresponent, i aquí només poseu-hi un enllaç cap al mateix.

Čeština: Pokud je to možné, zanechte detailní zprávu na diskusní stránce příslušného článku a sem dejte jen jednoduché vysvětlení s odkazem.

Dansk: Prøv så vidt muligt at skrive dine beskeder på de relevante artiklers diskussionssider og blot sætte et link til den her.

Deutsch: Sofern möglich, hinterlasse Deine Nachrichten auf der Diskussionseite des betreffenden Artikels und plaziere hier lediglich einen Link dorthin.

English:

Esperanto: Laŭeble metu vian plenan mesaĝon en la diskuton de la koncerna artikolo kaj ĉi tien nur unu linion kun ligo tien!

Español : En tanto sea posible, coloca tu mensaje en la página de discusión del artículo concerniente, y deja aquí solamente una línea con un enlace hacia el mismo.

Estremeñu: Ena miia lo posibri, asiaha el tu mensahi ena caraba el artículu correspondienti, i solu quea aquí un atihu pal mesmu.

Euskara: Posible bada, utzi zure mezua nahi duzun artikuluak duen eztabaida orrian, eta hemen lotura azaltzen duen lerro bateko lotura utzi.

Français : Dans la mesure du possible, veuillez laisser vos messages dans la page de discussion de l’article concerné et n’insérer ici qu’un lien vers ce message.

Galego: Na medida do posíbel, deixe as súas mensaxes na páxina de discusión do artigo relacionado e non insira aquí máis que unha ligazón cara a mensaxe.

Bahasa Indonesia: Ini adalah halaman untuk membicarakan mengenai hal-hal umum dan kebijakan untuk Meta (klik di sini untuk komentar baru); untuk membicarakan mengenai hal multibahasa atau penerjemahan, lihat di papan pengumuman penerjemahan. Jika Anda hendak mengomentari dengan suatu halaman artikel tertentu, tuliskan komentar Anda di halaman pembicaraan artikel tersebut, dan letakkan di sini pranala ke halaman pembicaraan tersebut dengan penjelasan singkat.

Italiano: Nei limiti del possibile, lasciate i vostri messaggi nella pagina di discussione dell'articolo e inserite in questa pagina solo il link alla discussione.

日本語： ここはメタの全体的なことや方針について議論するページです（新規の議論を追加する）。多言語化や翻訳についての議論は、翻訳者の掲示板をご覧ください。くわしい話はなるべく関連するページのノートに書いておき、ここにはそこへのリンクを添えた1行程度のメッセージだけを残すようにお願いします。

한국어: 만일 당신의 의견이 특정 문서의 내용과 관련있을 경우, 그 내용은 그 문서에 적어주시고, 이곳에는 그 문서로 가는 고리와 간단한 설명만 적어주세요.

Ripoarisch: Wann mööshlesh, schriiv Dinge Bëijdrach op däm Attikkel singe Klaaf_Sigk un donn hee nur ene koote Henwiiß unn_enne Lengk drop henn.

Nederlands: Laat je gedetailleerde berichten zo veel mogelijk achter op de discussiepagina van het betreffende artikel en hier een enkele regel met een verwijzing daarheen.

Norsk: Prøv å gjøre din beskjed her så kort som mulig, og lenk heller til relevante diskusjonssider.

Occitan : Dins la mesura del possible, daissar vòstres messatges dins la pagina discutida de l'article concernat e inserir aquí pas qu'un ligam vèrs aqueste messatge.

Português : Se possível, poste sua mensagem na página de discussão da página concernente e deixe aqui um pequeno lembrete com um link para a discussão.

Русский: По возможности, оставляйте ваши комментарии непосредственно на странице обсуждения соответствующей статьи Вики, а на данной странице помещайте только ссылку туда.

Slovenščina: Kolikor je le mogoče, pustite svoja sporočila z vsemi podrobnostmi na pogovorni strani ustreznega članka, tu pa naj ostane le vrstica s povezavo nanjo.

ไทย: การอภิปรายเกี่ยวกับหัวข้อเรื่องใดๆ กรุณาเขียนไว้ที่ หน้าพูดคุย ของเรื่องนั้นๆ และทำลิ้งก์จากหน้านี้ไปสู่หัวข้อเรื่องนั้น โดยเขียนไม่ควรเกินหนึ่งบรรทัด.

Türkçe: Eğer tartışma konunuz ile ilgili özel bir sayfa varsa, lütfen mesajınızı oraya bırakın ve buraya yalnızca bir bağlantı ile kısa bir açıklama ekleyin.

中文： 请尽量在讨论页发表你的详细意见，只在本页用一行写下你的意见摘要，然后做个链接连到即可。/請儘量在討論頁發表你的詳細意見，只在本頁用一行寫下你的意見摘要，然後做個鏈結連到即可。

Participate:

This page experimentally allows language localisation.

Visitor counter request

Hello,
especially for smaller wikis it is very interesting how many visitors are attracted daily/monthly!

WikiCharts was/is a nice idea, but figures have been wrong for the last months, and the last weeks (like several times, now) it just does not work!

I have made a JavaScript script which will do similar for combined use with an external (Wikimedia or own) server.

My script eventually will only count the number of visitors/IPs, and it will not expose sensitive referrers, except a given meaningless address!

External (non-Wikimedia) server? Please read wikt:als:Benutzer:Melancholie/monobook.js carefully!

Here my question: Is this idea conform to our Privacy policy? If not, will you allow projects to expand their privacy policy a little bit towards this feature? --- Best regards, Melancholie 02:58, 15 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You may be interested in user:midom's statistics at http://dammit.lt/wikistats/ .Hillgentleman 21:32, 16 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you very much for this link! It's better than nothing, but it is not really a Visitor Counter but a Hit Counter! My suggested counter will be a pure visitor counter! The "problem" with Midom's hit counter is that it is based on the squid access-log stream, and thus probably most bots, reloads, crawlers etc. are counted, too! --- Thanks, Melancholie 06:06, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

P.s.: Furthermore (like so often) only Wikipedia, Commons and Meta have been considered for that stats, yet!

It would be great if every article would display history of visits.--Piotrus 14:56, 22 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia users and editors have been asking for this for ages. Everyone wants a timestamped visitor counter for each page. The problem appears to be twofold: First, coding time and second, computation resources. -Kslays 21:23, 25 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think the first one is a problem! Huji 07:50, 27 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hidden Categories?

The following discussion is closed.

On 25 February 2008, BetaWiki/NukaWiki added the messages tog-showhiddencats, hidden-categories, hidden-category-category, and hiddencategories to the core set. This hints at a hidable-category facility in the wiki software (something the French Wiktionary has wished for), but I can't find anything about this on Wikimedia. What's it about? Urhixidur 13:21, 26 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

__HIDDENCAT__ was recently added to the software. Adding it to a category page hides it on pages it is used on, including parent categories. Hidden categories can be made visible using CSS. —{admin} Pathoschild 18:39:13, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Could you elaborate, or point to the appropriate Help pages? Specifically, we would like pages that are categorised under certain categories to not display those category listings at their bottom, while keeping the display of the Category pages themselves unaffected. An example is http://fr.wiktionary.org/wiki/eau : we would like to hide all mentions of "Traductions en ..." from the category listing at the bottom of the page. Please help, we seem so close to a solution! Urhixidur 17:16, 29 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

See help:category. As a general rule, you can check the recent contributions of user:patrick for documentations of new features. Hillgentleman 17:53, 29 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Unfortunately, the help does not elaborate on "they can be made visible or invisible through CSS" (a link to the details of how to do this would be expected in that sentence). How do we make hidden categories visible within the category namespace? Urhixidur 20:09, 29 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think there's an option in your preferences, the "Show hidden categories" box under the "Misc" section. Cbrown1023 talk 20:54, 29 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I’ve tried the magic word out, and documented its use accordingly. Question: to specify the category sort key to use within the "Hidden categories" category, there is no other way but to double-categorise? That is to say, add [[Category:Hidden categories|<category sort key>]] below __HIDDENCAT__? Urhixidur 20:57, 29 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Use {{defaultsort:SORTKEY}} if you like; see Category:Hidden category demo with defaultsort. Hillgentleman 21:12, 29 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. I’ve added another demo showing how to specify the category sort key for just the "Hidden categories" category. Urhixidur 21:51, 29 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

New Babel templates

Previous discussion is archived.

Color change

I don't see any reason provided in the discussions why the colors were changed. The new colors really are counter-intuitive. Moreover, as it was already noticed, meta is the central coordination platform for all Wikimedia wikis. Having a different color code for babel templates will confuse everyone. I see the color code can be personalized in the new template, but I think default colors should be the old ones. Thanks. guillom 08:57, 9 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ik ben het helemaal eens met Guillom. De kleuren die er nu op gezet zijn, zijn triest en ongelukkig gekozen. Het voelt zowat als een beschuldiging met het donkergrijs als je "slechts" een -1 hebt, terwijl het eigenlijk een complimentje hoort te zijn. De standaardkleuren dienen sowieso de oude te zijn wat mij betreft, en ook alleen in de taal waar het over gaat als het aan mij ligt. Mensen zijn intelligent genoeg om te snappen wat er staat, zeker als er meermalen onder elkaar hetzelfde staat. Ik zie dan ook niet de noodzaak in om nu na tien dagen discussieren hier dit botmatig dwingend te gaan wijzigen. Ik zie overigens ook niet in waarom de oude sjablonen niet naar de nieuwe kunnen blijven bestaan, en waarom dit nu weer allemaal onder "old" geplaatst moet worden. Dit soort veranderingen kan wmb beter langzaamaan gaan, zodat mensen er aan kunnen wennen en het zelf kunnen doorvoeren. Effeietsanders 14:26, 9 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Translation: "I totally agree with Guillom. The colors that we put on now are sad and unfortunate. It feels almost like an accusation with a dark gray if you "only" have a -1, whereas it should actually be a compliment. The old standard should anyway be what I am concerned, and only in the language it is about if it was up to me. People are intelligent enough to understand what it says, especially if there are several others on the page with the same standard. I therefore see no need, after ten days here discussing, for this mandatory bot work to go ahead. I also see no reason why the old templates cannot continue to exist alongside the new , and why now all of the "old" templates need to be placed. This kind of change can be made more slowly, so that people can get used to it and it can carry itself out." —translated by Pathoschild.

The new colour scheme was chosen as a progression of related colours. If you don't like the colours, suggestions are more than welcome. However, you are more than welcome to use the old babel format, and this is explicitly stated in the edit summaries when updating. Compare:

{{user nl}}

nl	Deze gebruiker heeft Nederlands als moedertaal.

{{babelold|nl|N}}

Template:Babelold

{{user language|nl|N}}

Template:User language

{{babelold}} contains the babel format in one template but uses the new text and categories. We could conceivably place it on every babel template page, but this would be more work in the future and most users would not even realize the templates are superseded. :) —{admin} Pathoschild 20:03:23, 09 February 2008 (UTC)

You say "However, you are more than welcome to use the old babel format". Well, you are the one declaring the "old" template is deprecated and using scripts on thousands of userpages to switch to your new template with colors you only have chosen. If you really want to let users choose, then don't replace the babel box by your new template, replace it by the "babelold" template, so that you don't change the appearance of every single userpage on this wiki. Besides, the "progression of related colours" may look like a good idea to yourself, but how does one know that a light green means a lower level than a dark green? At least, in most cultures it is commonly accepted that red means "not ok" and green means "ok". guillom 21:30, 9 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

PS: I know you're trying to make things better, but I would really like to see more attention to the pursuit of consensus. guillom 21:30, 9 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This was discussed quite a bit before implementation. I invited comment repeatedly in several multilingual IRC channels, particularly #wikimedia and #wikimedia-translation, before I even posted the product of our discussion here. This proposal was to change the default templates, not to introduce a redundant system (which is a bad idea).

Ideally, there should be nobody at all using {{babelold}}. If someone switches to {{babelold}}, that means they're not satisfied with the new template, and I'm personally contacting them to discuss whether the template can be changed to their liking. So far, a very tiny percentage (much less than one percentage point) have expressed dissatisfaction with the new template.

With regards to the colours, there is a clear relation between the colours for every level ( 1 , 2 , 3 , N ), much more so than the old colour scheme ( 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 , N ). If you have suggestions for a better colour scheme, these are very welcome. This template is the product of a lot of collaboration and suggestions. —{admin} Pathoschild 22:00:14, 09 February 2008 (UTC)

The 4th and 5th level are almost not used on meta, and their color in the "old" color code is surely not ideal. Though, I see you don't propose any better color for these two levels though, your template actually doesn't even allow them, probably because the most used templates are the blue and green ones, and the one you forgot, the level 0 . I think this color scale ( 0 , 1 , 2 , 3 , N ) is more intuitive: green means "ok, you can talk to me in this language", blue means "so-so" and red means "not ok, I am not able to communicate in this language".

The new color code you propose ( 1 , 2 , 3 , N ) makes sense when all colors are next to each other: once can understand that green means "ok" and the less green there is, the less ok it is. Though, "grey" doesn't really mean "not ok". Besides, there is no difference between level 0 and level 1 , though there is a real difference between these two: one means "I cannot communicate in this language" and the other means "I have basic knowledge in this language".

What about something like: ( 0 , 1 , 2 , 3 , N , Pro )? This is probably not ideal yet, but we could work on it. You may note this fixes the inconsistency with the professional "babel-5" template which is supposed to be a better level than only "native". guillom 10:31, 10 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

People interested in this discussion may wish to take a look at User:Pathoschild/Sandbox4 where a new color set was proposed : ( 0 , 1 , 2 , 3 , N , P ) (knowing that the P level may not be implemented). guillom 13:13, 10 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry for being a bit late, but I'd like to ask that some distinction between the colors for 0 and 1 be made. If we use the greening scheme, I would suggest that 1 be a very light grayish green or something instead of exactly the same as 0. Alternatively make 0 reddish and keep 1 at gray?? (I use -0 a lot on wikis where I do not speak the native language) Thanks. ++Lar: t/c 00:27, 29 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It makes a sense to give different colors to 0 and 1. While I don't know the proposal of Guillom is intuitive, it may be an option (at least it is more eye-pleasure). Red / Green scaling may be another option, I suppose. --Aphaia 00:56, 29 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The reason levels 0 and 1 don't have separate colours is that level 0 isn't recognized as a standard level; the template only allows English to bypass the level validation for 0, and without a category. —{admin} Pathoschild 02:48:02, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

I think there's a lot of value in recognising 0 as a standard level, (I tried 0 with ja and it seemed to work for me in a test edit so maybe I don't quite follow what you meant?) and in any case the color should be different than 1, standard or not. The old boxes worked that way on many wikis. ++Lar: t/c 03:04, 29 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No, using {{user language|ja|0}} should display something like "This user speaks Japanese at a level." (note the missing adjective), with the page categorized to Incorrect user language level. A more visible error message is possible, but that would require special coding to make an exception for English. I'm not strongly opposed to a zeroth level, but please wait until we finish discussing the fourth level before proposing it. :) —{admin} Pathoschild 04:08:18, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Well since I don't read japanese, all I saw was that the template didn't throw an error. And it shouldn't. The old system has -0 templates. I would prefer not to discuss one digit at a time, but instead discuss the notion that the new system should be as powerful as the old system was, and not mandate a different, more restrictive way of thinking about things. That's what I allude to below but I'll reiterate it here, because that's what I do :). Many many wikis use -0, have categories set up for it, have old system boxes that use it, etc. and therefore the new system should support that, or it won't be portable. And portability, a single template, a single set of translated strings, etc., is a big selling point for me. It's basically the whole reason I haven't been opposing the change entirely, I was sold on the idea that a simpler, more regular system would be more portable. That doesn't mean it shouldn't be as powerful as the old one, as expressive... we need 0-5 and N because that's what existing wikis use. ++Lar: t/c 04:17, 29 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Add zeroeth level

The following discussion is closed: done

Per Pathoschild's request that we discuss this separately, I would like to propose that we add a zeroeth level. I think you'll find there are a fair few number of users of it across the wikis. I know I use it myself whenever I do a new crosslink at a wiki in a language other than en or de. (probably 90% of the wikis by number that I have IDs at are ones for which it is true that I don't speak the wiki's primary language) The description given above "None; the user is not able to communicate in this language." seems about right to me. ++Lar: t/c 19:36, 17 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Done. There's a specific use for a zeroth level for a wiki's main language, and I intend to set up Meta as the source for bot-multicast localization updates. Ideally, this will allow wikis to simply request the user language system, provide the default text, and have a crosswiki bot create and maintain the entire set of templates forevermore. —{admin} Pathoschild 21:30:11, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Localization updates

The {{user language}} localizations need to be updated to reflect the recent changes. I've contacted all the translators, and most have already been updated. Please update any localizations in your languages listed at User:Pathoschild/User language update. —{admin} Pathoschild 22:29:48, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Advanced password checking for flagged users

The following discussion is closed.

After small discuss in russian wiki, I think, checking a user before changing status (adding +s, +b flags) for password compexivity may be good idea. #!89.223.67.221 22:52, 3 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Do you mean trying to hackinto her account?Hillgentleman 22:57, 3 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, I think he means trying to crack it in a similar method to what happened on en.wp not too long ago. EVula // talk // ☯ // 23:23, 3 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Which discussion on ruwiki? — VasilievVV 13:57, 4 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

HELP!

The following discussion is closed.

I have set wrong e-mail adress on my User in Swedish Wikimedia. I have asked for new password and i dont get any. My Username is "Max Speed" and my e-mail is "ndv06mon@student.hig.se". I have the same username at Swedish wikipedia and swedish wikibooks and there is the e-mail correct. Dont know where to go for help. Hope this is right place. --213.112.183.94 04:20, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Unfortunately, you need either to know the password or to have set the right address. If neither of these is the case, there is not much that can be done to reclaim the account. If you are interested in having your account names unified, and that account doesn't have much in the way of contributions, it could be usurped (moved to a different name), perhaps. If that is of interest, make a request at Meta:Changing_username. Please be prepared to document that you control the accounts at sw:wp and sw:wb by crosslinking. Hope that helps. ++Lar: t/c 12:18, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

New gadget: Contributions Range

When enabled, lets you enter CIDR ranges (/16 and /24 - /32) in Special:Contributions as well as wildcard prefix searches, for example: "Splark*"

Thanks to User:Splarka for the gadget! ~Kylu (u|t) 16:54, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Very good, thank you very much Splarka. --Anonymous Dissident^Talk 08:21, 18 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

RFC: Suffrage for local elections on Meta-wiki

Requesting input here: Requests for comments/Meta-wiki suffrage in regards to local elections ~Kylu (u|t) 04:58, 19 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

RfC — rethinking the list of the top ten wikipedias

Please comment on the discussion at Top Ten Wikipedias. Waldir 19:05, 23 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Meta talk:Requests for adminship#Radical_idea

I just want all metapedians to join the discussion there. Thanks — VasilievVV 14:32, 25 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Translating gadget descriptions

Is there a way to translate gadget descriptions? Like MediaWiki:Gadget-BiDiEditing/fr being a French version of MediaWiki:Gadget-BiDiEditing (or I suppose it might be MediaWiki:Gadgets-definition/fr translating MediaWiki:Gadgets-definition).

Also, is there a way to change the page so it uses labels on the text? On all other preference panes, clicking the text activates the check box as well. I'd love to see this extended to gadgets as well. EVula // talk // ☯ // 18:45, 25 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The extension currently does not allow localisation of dynamic messages... Maybe a feature request at mw:Extension talk:Gadgets could help. Siebrand 14:28, 26 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]