Requests for new languages/Wikipedia Montenegrin

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This is an archived version of this page, as edited by Sergej Lazarev (talk | contribs) at 10:57, 7 June 2006 (→‎Oppose). It may differ significantly from the current version.

Montenegrin (9 support; 23 oppose; 2 Neutral)

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Summary

Support
  1. CrnaGora 03:21, 25 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Ante Perkovic 08:55, 26 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  3. West Brom 4ever, 14.43, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
  4. Branka France, 15.28, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
  5. Zmaj 13:51, 26 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  6. Roberta F. 14:04, 26 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  7. E.coli 19:56, 26 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  8. Hipi Zhdripi 19:50, 26 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  9. VZDSL 00:58, 27 May 2006 (UTC) (Second edit made on this page, possible sockpuppet)[reply]
  10. Support by default, but my comments are under oppose; also, consider changing code into "cg". --Millosh 13:52, 28 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  11. Node ue 08:07, 29 May 2006 (UTC) Shouldn't it be natural for me to support Montenegrin, as I supported Serbo-Croatian, and even Zlatiborian? Long live Montenegro! I am happy that the Montenegrins are finally prevailing in their long and bloody battle against their evil Serbian oppressors, and I hope the Zlatiborians are soon to follow. Nothing short of full independence can be satisfactory. Now these people will be free to speak their beautiful language without Serbian oppression.[reply]
  12. Skafa 04 Jun 2006
  13. Ilir pz 09:50, 7 June 2006 (UTC) why not? I support it without any doubts.[reply]
Oppose
  1. --Boris Malagruski 05:23, 26 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  2. --Zirland 05:56, 26 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  3. -- Obradovic Goran 07:48, 26 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  4. --Jovanvb 08:35, 26 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  5. --ARBE0 08:45, 26 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  6. --Kaster 09:01, 26 May 2006 (UTC) (Is to early for that)[reply]
  7. --Taichi - (あ！) 09:04, 26 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  8. --Banovic 12:02, 26 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  9. --Mare 16:20, 26 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  10. --Rakija 18:28, 26 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  11. --Slaven Kosanovic 20:16, 26 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  12. --Sasa Stefanovic 20:37, 26 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  13. --Krytan 23:50, 26 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  14. --Estavisti 01:17, 27 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  15. --C-c-c-c 04:19, 27 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  16. --Dzordzm 04:24, 27 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  17. --Goran.Smith2 08:14, 27 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  18. --PhilG 09:35, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
  19. --George D. Bozovic 13:41, 27 May 2006 (UTC) (Perhaps I would vote 'support' if Montenegrin language was officially proclaimed and standardized in a form. Right now, the language is not neither officially proclaimed by the Government of Montenegro, nor it has a standard literary form. I think that, at the moment, we should just wait to see what is going to happen in Montenegro about this matter, and if Montenegrin Government proclaims Montenegrin language and if Montenegrin Academy standardizes it, then this voting will have sence.)[reply]
  20. rado 21:31, 27 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  21. Steinbach (formerly Caesarion) 13:40, 29 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  22. --YUGO 15:17, 29 May 2006 (UTC) this language simply does not exist. its an invention of anti-serbia-attituted peoples. i do not know any montenegrin words or linguistic differences to serbian, than only minor dialectical ones.[reply]
  23. --vlada 19:22, 29 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  24. Redundant, almost identical to Serbian, in fact considered identical by most linguists. Minor usage and vocab differences. +Hexagon1 (talk) 09:36, 5 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  25. --Lord Eru 06:37, 7 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  26. --Luka Jačov. - as George.
  27. --Sergej Lazarev 10:57, 7 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Neutral
  1. I'm generally in favor of "live and let live", but this strucks me as yet another wannabe encyclopedia. There are two active users from Montenegro that I know of on en.wiki and i don't see how they (even if they gather a dozen more) could effectively write anything that would come close to an encyclopedia than to a blog. en:User:Duja, 08:11, 26 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  2. I am sad because I can't oppose from some logical reasons. Namely, with SCG parting, Montenegrin nationalists have chosen to make a move and I respect that. It is a fact that a number of people declare that they speak Montenegrin and that should be respected. However, making the fifth wikipedia based on a, loosely said, similar language, is somewhat disturbing, yet normal. This would, I'm afraid, become the third fork of the Serbian wikipedia. The difference is - it would be in yekavian standard, which we, at sr:, aim to implement to our wikipedia. I was against the existance of sh: wikipedia, but now that the Balkans have turned into a mess, I'd like to see one more language have its own wikipedia, so that we all could be pronounced loonaticks. The truth is that not many Montenegrins speak Montenegrin, and even fewer visit Internet, let alone Wikipedia, so I'm not very afraid of jeopardizing other Wikipedias in favor of this one. --Filip (§) 11:13, 26 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  3. I would agree, since those in the know (millosh, I guess) say this is the way new languages are standardised - people decide, for whatever reason, that their language is unique. Fine with me. However, I'm not sure proposer is that much interested in making an encyclopedia as he/she is in pushing his/her's own political agenda. And of those that voted 'yes' only the proposer is native speaker. However, if more native speakers should be interested in creating a wikipedia, I would gladly vote yes. So I'm neutral for now. --Бране Јовановић 09:45, 5 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  4. I will only say: I told you so. Is Wikipedia a place to build an encyclopedia, or a place to promote one's own culture, language and national identity? --Dcabrilo 06:25, 7 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

Support
  • Montenegrin is considered the main language of Montenegro by many Montenegrins in Montenegro, and many Montenegrins consider this as their primary language even though some people, even Serbs, consider this language as a dialect of Serbian. The Montenegrin language is spoken with an Ijekavian-Shtokavian dialect.
  • Boris Malagurski said that there are just 3 or 4 words different words from Serbian. I see that two words different just by loking en:Template:User_sr-4 and en:Template:User_cg-4. So, what are the other 2 ;)?
Lemme jsut say here that the userboxes are simply phrased differently. This is also done on product packaging with Serbian/Croatian/Bosnian to make the text purposely different. --Estavisti 16:02, 28 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Funny, on your user page, Ante Perkovic, you say you speak Serbian and Montengerin equally well:)) C-c-c-c
You'll be surprised how much more can you understand a speaker from Šumadija then a say, Niš-speaker. HRE
  • My opinion is that absolutely every country must have its own language. Infact, bosnian, serbian and croatian r very similar languages too. That is the reason more why i support montenegrin (crnogorski) language. that is also case in wikipedia. Opponents of this question really think that montenegrin people who supported the independence will edit wikipedia in serbian??? As, bormalagurski said, serb and montenegrin differ in few words. But i dont think montenegrin people would like to expand something serbian. Am i right? West Brom 4ever

P.S. I am from Croatia, so i wrote this from NPOV.

Well, every country should have its own language, I agree - but not every does, and we can't change taht on an Encyclopedia, arguing that. ;) HRE
Wasn't Croatia at a war with Serbia recently? So, when it comes to Serbian-Montenegrin affairs, you consider yourself NPOV? I highly doubt it. Montenegrin is not officially a language, when it is, we can talk about Montenegrin Wikipedia, but still, 3 words is not worth the trouble... --Rakija 18:35, 26 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
But, what does that have to do with anything? HRE
I also noticed that page, but I think you forgot to mention that it's the page of the government of Milo Djukanovic, the pro-independence leader of Montenegro. The official website of the government of Montenegro, approved by the international community (unlike the Milo Djukanovic one) is listed below, and it says that Serbian is the official language. Milo's government claims that the official language of Montenegro is Montenegrin, even though in the constitution of Montenegro it says that Serbian is the official language. Who are we going to trust, the constitution, or the website? --Rakija 18:40, 26 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Montenegrin is different from Serbian. Why?, because Serbian comes in two varieties, Ijekavian and Ekavian, unlike Montenegrin, which comes in one variety, Ijekavian. On Serbian Wikipedia, it always starts in Cyrillic and I was told to post on only Cyrillic. Also, basically, whenever i click the latinized Ijekavian script, the article comes up in latin script but still in ekavian. So, since Montenegrin is only Ijekavian, it would be easier to see it in both cyrillic and latin. Besides, Montenegro is changing its constitution, so it is very likely that Montenegrin will become the official language of Montenegro. CrnaGora 19:10, 26 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Nidžo, before you comment, read the entire conversation, Oppose comments and Support comments alike. By the end of the year, Serbian Wikipedia will have the Ijekavian-Ekavian transformation program up and running, and it would be better to turn your efforts on helping with that, instead of starting a new Wikipedia, which will take years to achieve what we'll do in months. Serbian Wikipedia at the moment allows you to see a text in cyrillic and latin, and will, by the end of the year, have Ijekavian as well as Ekavian dialects at the click of a button. Doesn't that sound more simple that starting a new Wikipedia so you can change 3 words that probably occur in only about a 100 articles? The reason you're giving is not a valid one, as Serbian Wikipedia has allowed maximum flexibility and freedom for Ijekavian-speaking people (also, the cyrillic-posting policy has changed, you can now post on latin too :-)) --Boris Malagurski 00:55, 27 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Ok if you say that Boris, well then, how is sr.wikipedia supposed to format ekavian text into ijekavian and vice-versa? Tried that, doesn't even work. Also, why was I told that I'm only allowed to post articles in cyrillic? Explain that. CrnaGora 05:13, 28 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I will gladly explain your concerns. The official policy of the Serbian Wikipedia was to post articles in cyrillic untill the "cyrillic to latin and vice versa" program was introduced early this year. Now, users can choose which language they want to view, and we didn't want to make a mess of cyrillic and latin articles before we could allow users to view them in one particular alphabet. Now, you can post in latin as well as cyrillic, ekavian, as well es ijekavian. The "ekavian to ijekavian and vice versa" program has been set-up, but still doesn't work, because we are in the process of making a list of all the words that differ (reka into rijeka, pesma into pjesma), and when the list is finished (probably by the end of the year), all articles will have the option of viewing them in either of the dialects at the click of the mouse. We have worked a lot on it, and are very proud of our achievements so far, and hope that everything will go well for the second part of the program. Convinced, CrnaGora? --Boris Malagurski 05:37, 28 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
How can I be convinced? I was on Serbian Wikipedia today (May 29th) and yet none of the articles I visited had ijekavian words, all ekavian. Besides Boris, stop trying to convince me, it's just a waste of time. I will never be convinced. Besides, 3 words is enough for a language to differ. Anyways, Montenegro used to have its own different language, until the Serbs changed it. So, I'm never going to be convinced. Besides, I believe that the Montenegrin language will become a reality. CrnaGora 22:29, 29 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not trying to convince you, I don't really care what you think, I'm just stating that Montenegrin, regardless of wheter it should or should not be a language, is currently --Boris Malagurski 04:38, 3 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Why not? Montenegrin people have right to use their own language in Wikipedia like Croatians, Bosnians and Serbians do. In former Yugoslavia is used to say 'One state, one language'. The Montenegrin Constitution will be changed and the official language will be Montenegrin without doubt. That is a reason for the creation of the Crnogorska Wikipedia! --Skafa 04 Jun 2006
You people just don't get it, do you... Sure, they have a right to have their own language. But, unlike Croatian, Bosniak and Serb languages, which are internationally recognized, the Montenegrin language is not internationally recognized.
Hence, this is not a discussion on whether Montenegrin should be an official language, the official Constitution of Montenegro says it isn't. We are discussing here on whether we should create a Wikipedia for an unofficial language, declared unofficial even by Montenegro itself. It's not about who deserves what language, I personally believe that they have the right to speak which ever language they want. The fact is that Montenegro delclared Serbian as the official language. What else is there to say? The next person that writes "Montenegrins deserve to have their own language" or "they have the right to speak whatever language they want" is really really stupid, because that is not what we are debating.
When the country of Montenegro says "Montenegrin is our official language" and when the international community says "OK", then I will nominate the creation of the Montenegrin Wikipedia. End of discussion. --Boris Malagurski21:50, 4 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
  • Montenegrin is not the official language of any country, not even Montenegro, as can be seen from the "srpski" (Serbian language) word at the bottom of the official government website here. There is even a discussion on whether the article "Montenegrin language" should be moved to "Montenegrin dialect" on English Wikipedia. It is a dialect, with only 3 or 4 words different from Serbian. The Serbian Wikipedia has recently introduced a system where both ekavian and ijekavian dialects can be used on it, and this makes the Montenegrin Wikipedia obsolete, because it would basically be copied from the Serbian Wikipedia, with a change of only 3 or 4 words. The Serbian Wikipedia also tolerates those 3 or 4 words, as they are sometimes used in Serbian as well. Unlike the Croatian Wikipedia, where Croatian is much different from Serbian, or Bosnian, which is a mixture of the two, Montenegrin is absolutly not a separate language (at least not yet), not recognized internationally, and not fit for Wikipedia. --Boris Malagurski 05:31, 26 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Wikipedia is not the place for creating new language. Its goal is to truly describe the reality. As Montenegrin is not recognized as language yet, has no ISO code (not even three letter code) and this is not the place to create it. I am happy for Montenegro infependence, but it doesn't mean montenegrin dialect of serbian language became full-value language over night. --Zirland 05:56, 26 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Montenegrin linguists said that Montenegrin language differs from Serbian in EXACTLY THREE WORDS.. If they really want their Wikipedia, maybe they should get it... but I think that it would be a too great waste of resources. -- Obradovic Goran 07:53, 26 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've got plenty of sympathy for your beautiful country - but not for this unnecessary request. Wikipedia is about information, not about politics. --ARBE0 08:45, 26 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Long live Montenegro! They deserve all the best, and I wish them luck in their newly formed state. However, there are many countries in the world that use languages that are not "original" (Brazil, Austria,...), and I can't understand why would Montenegro want a dialect to be declared a language, when they have a perfectly good language already - Serbian. Nevertheless, my opinion doesn't matter, but the UN and the international comunity's opinion does, and they are clear on the issue - there is no Montenegrin language. --Rakija 18:32, 26 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • I don't see clear reasons for creating another Wikipedia based on "ethnic" and "nacionalist" criteria and not on real language structure. I no more understend, what the concept "language" means on former Yugoslav region? People is going to behave out of reason including so-called linguists and language experts of that ethnicities. --Slaven Kosanovic 20:35, 26 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'd also like to add that the only person that voted Support and speaks this so called "Montenegrin" is CrnaGora, all the others are Croats and Albanians, who clearly won't contribute to the "Montenegrin Wikipedia" if created, and this proves that this has nothing to do with languages, but rather with politics, since Serbs were at war with Croats and Albanians recently. --Boris Malagurski 01:01, 27 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • This is a proposal calling for a fifth Wikipedia in what is essentially Serbo-Croatian language. What's more, this is a "language" which even the minority who declare to speak it see as being identical to Serbian and its naming is seen as an expression of political choice (namely independence of Montenegro). Should this wasteful attitude toward Wikimedia resources continue, soon enough every political party, NGO and frustrated quasi-linguist within Serbian lignuistic area will have its own Wikipedia paid for by contributions of unsuspecting Joe. (N.B. 1. While the official naming convention remains irrelevant, the official language in Montenegro is Serbian as per its constitution. 2. USA has declared its independence from England in 1776.) --Dzordzm 04:24, 27 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Montenegrin is as of now a bunch of dialects, with a literary written form being identical to Serbian (the same as the literary language of "Austrian" or "Swiss German" is just plain standard German). It might change in the future, but until then, a separate wiki would be useless. rado 21:41, 27 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • While I think that Montenegrin Wikipedia should exist (if Serbian, Croatian and Bosnian exist; and even Serbo-Croatian is reopened (?!)), there is only one person on Wikipedia who consider this language as his native (Crna Gora). All others who voted for opening Montenegrin Wikipedia are Croatian Wikipedians (and me, a Serbian Wikipedian). So, I would like to see five or more Wikipedians who are native speakers of Montenegrin before this Wikipedia would be opened. Until that, User:CrnaGora and others can work on Montenegrin Wikipedia here, on Serbo-Croatian, Serbian or Croatian Wikipedias. --Millosh 13:52, 28 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • In few weeks I would declare my own language, and possibly request one Wikipedia for my self. Should people here support my rights to have one? ;)--Slaven Kosanovic 09:35, 29 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose we have four wikis in essentially the same language, Servocroatic, that seems enough to me. One wiki for all, or perhaps two, one for every script, would be the best solution, if you use a tolerant norm which allows all national variants. Steinbach (formerly Caesarion) 13:40, 29 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
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