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Globally hidden usernames should be hidden locally too, and local hiding of usernames should be possible

Dear all,
hiding global accountnames from the global userlist is possible and makes much sense for very insulting accountnames. (eg. containing realnames or accountnames of respected users and living or dead people)
Renaming them only moves the problem to the renamelog (of course better than the userlist).

In bugzilla:14476 the hiding of accountnames had been requested as feature for local projects too. Imho the local hiding should be assigned to local bureaucrats. Also if an accountname is hidden globally it should be hidden in both userlists, not only in the global one.

Please express Your opinion here.

• I do support such a feature. --birdy geimfyglið _(:> )=| ∇ 13:58, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
• I totally agree with birdy :) ..--Cometstyles 14:03, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
• I agree completely with both these fine people above :) --Herby ^{talk thyme} 14:08, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
• Yes. Cbrown1023 talk 14:09, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
• Agreed, seems like an excellent suggestion. --MiCkE^d_b 17:25, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
• Agree. —DerHexer (Talk) 18:04, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
• fully support, -jkb- (cs.source) 18:39, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
• Yes, absolutely. WjBscribe 19:41, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
• Good and agree --Mardetanha ^talk 19:43, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
•  Support good idea! --Kanonkas 21:23, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
• I also agree Huji 21:56, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
•  Support -Jorunn 22:15, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
•  Support  – Mike.lifeguard | ^@en.wb 00:52, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
• Would be very welcome. On nlwiki we often have to rename users stalking German sysops. Hiding the names would be better. --Erwin(85) 09:18, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
• Yes please. giggy _(:O) 09:28, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
•  Support - no doubt about it. --FiliP × 13:41, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
•  Support Absolutely no reason to oppose this. Majorly ^talk 14:19, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
•  Support — VasilievV ² 17:51, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
•  Support ++Lar: t/c 18:05, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
•  Support it makes a sense. --Aphaia 18:44, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
•  Support Would be useful on EN:WQ.--Cato 22:32, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
•  Support Sounds good. Soxred93 22:57, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
•  Support --Meno25 11:52, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
•  Support --Millosh 12:11, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
•  Support I have a list handy :) -- lucasbfr ^talk 06:56, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
•  Support Good idea. Cenarium (talk) 12:08, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
•  Support common sense--Werdan7^{T @} 23:46, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
•  Support MBisanz ^talk 01:05, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
•  Support Monobi (talk) 01:06, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
•  Support Very useful. Firefoxman 01:07, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
•  Support Nakon 01:22, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
•  Oppose This implementation, at least. Hiding accounts, especially ones that have contributions, is deceptive and unnecessary. If there's an issue with the account names, they shouldn't simply be swept under the rug, they should be dealt with -- permanently. --MZMcBride 03:10, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

  "Dealt with permanently" how? I fail to see how this is sweeping anything under the rug, or how it is not desirable, but I'm sure you can clarify.  – Mike.lifeguard | ^@en.wb 03:31, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

  By reassigning the edits and deleting the account entirely. Currently, two people have the power to do this. Bureaucrats can essentially do this using the RenameUser extension. And sysadmins can do this using their magic powers (a maintenance script, I believe). "Sweeping them under the rug" refers to simply hiding them, which makes the problem go away, in a sense, but doesn't really do so cleanly, and doesn't truly resolve the issue (the accounts still exist). --MZMcBride 03:35, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

  The problem with renaming them is that it simply moves the problem content from the list of users to the rename log. A developer would still be needed to completely remove the data. I think you will find most such accounts have no contributions (or at least only deleted ones). Given that the issue is to some extent a cosmetic one - people unhappy with having insulting names in publicly accessible logs (some are BLP vios in their own right) - "hiding" the names seems to actually resolve the problem without needing developers to deal with every instance. WjBscribe 03:55, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

  As I understand it, hiding the accounts would still leave a log entry. (At least, hiding global accounts currently does.) So, really these bad entries would be moving from one Special: page to another. ; - ) While I understand and sympathize with those wanting to remove the unsightly names from the list, the reality is that this part of the software (Special:ListUsers) functions to list all users in the database, not just certain ones. If the accounts exist, they should be listed (in my personal view, of course). Otherwise, it's revisionistic, in a sense. And yes, while the logs are publicly accessible, they are not indexed by search engines (no Special: pages are). If we want to avoid developer intervention, an extension or some other type of software feature could be written / implemented. There's an extension currently called mw:Extension:User Merge and Delete that could be used, I suppose. Though it also has a log. --MZMcBride 04:05, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

  The comment about logs is a good one. The utility of this feature is considerably lessened if the action is logged unless access to the log is restricted, say to admins only. WjBscribe 23:54, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

  If the devs can device this to work similar to the "oversight logs" or "checkuser logs", it will be better so only crats can remove from userlist, and will only be available for them..--Cometstyles 04:11, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

•  Support Makes sense to me, tools rock. Until(1 == 2) 03:26, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
•  Support Ayuh. -- Avi 04:42, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
•  Support SynergeticMaggot 09:03, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
• Support and I have a list, too; many on my various watchlists and user/talk page histories.
  Cheers, Jack Merridew 11:27, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

  I've struck my support; tentatively. If another solution such as outright deleting abusive accounts can work with the edits reasigned somehow and all licensing issues addressed, then great. The trolls have created a great many accounts that should be put out of the sunshine. Cheers, Jack Merridew 12:31, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

•  Support User names may be offensive ("Johnsmith stinks") and may release personal information ("Anoneditor is John Smith and lives in London"); such names should be hidden.--Poetlister 11:45, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
• Good idea. Acalamari 17:00, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
•  Oppose Hiding doesn't solve the problem, and for accounts with contribs just makes the WP data confusing. MZMcBride's position above is good. Listen to him. --Gmaxwell 23:11, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
•  Oppose per MZMcBride. I'm not sure what simply hiding them solves. Can active accounts be hidden? Accounts with contribs that aren't deleted? I don't think that's a very good idea. What would happen to file histories? Can you even do that without violating the GFDL? I agree those user lists need a good cleaning but this does not sound like the way to do it. What about just restricting the list to admins? Or better yet, deleteaccount. Rocket000 08:34, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

  Hello, please take a look at this and read the introduction of the page, where it says, 'very insulting accountnames', before talking about GFDL and contributions, thanks, --birdy geimfyglið _(:> )=| ∇ 09:17, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

  That doesn't mention what happens to accounts with contribs. People with "very insulting" accountnames can edit constructively too. The GFDL can apply to people with any kind of name. "Very insulting" varies from person to person, language to language, culture to culture, etc. (Even if it's underlined.) How does hiding certain contributers names help anything? It's simply deceptive, non transparent, and unfair. For what benefit? Rocket000 10:26, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

  Nothing happens to them, the ones with contributions should be renamed because of the history. Please have a look at that list I gave You, it is real names, usernames and then You get a idea about what is very insulting and why those can't contribute normally, it has nothing to do with useful contributions. The aibility to hide accountnames already is technically implemented, but only for global ones. If there is something better than that, please go for it, but until then, this should be done. The deletion of accounts will be implementet, uhm, let me guess... never? --birdy geimfyglið _(:> )=| ∇ 10:31, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

  P.S. It is really frustrating that it even has to be discussed that we need the aibility to protect people from such. Talking about useful contributions in that context, to me, sorry to say, sounds rather ridiculous. On some projects they had to modify the MediaWiki messages to hide the old name when they renamed to protect the people, that can't be the solution. --birdy geimfyglið _(:> )=| ∇ 10:40, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

  Ok then, as long as accounts with contribs are not hidden, I support. Looking at the names in that log, would this be considered "very insulting": User:Persian Poet Gal blocks innocent n00bs for no reason!@global. I would hope not. But should it be hidden? If anything is, yes. This doesn't address stuff like that. Or am I missing something? This just seems like censorship for the sake of it rather than doing something useful like cleaning out the user lists. Rocket000 10:43, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

  All right, this is sounding better. Should all accounts that are hidden also be indefinitely blocked? What happens when a non-global accountname is hidden locally and then someone creates the global account elsewhere? Rocket000 10:50, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

  It can't be censorship because it would not affect the version history (so no need to fear license issues), because of that it is unfortunately not a solution for accounts with edits at all. Now there is sul for all, but nothing to prevent those with mailicous intention to bypass local protections. Happy to hear other, better, realizable, ideas, suggestions and solutions, best regards, --birdy geimfyglið _(:> )=| ∇ 12:20, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

  That addresses my all concerns then.  Support. The only suggestion I would make is to have broader definition of what names should be hidden (like I pointed out above it would serve us well to hide some non-offensive names too). Rocket000 12:29, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

• Support --Michail 11:58, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
•  Support if you have a look at these nick's i'll think my support for at least hiding could be unterstood.

The list with 4 offending NOT-nicknames has been commented out and can be seen in the history

--Joergens.mi 20:31, 22 June 2008 (UTC) --Joergens.mi 04:59, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

•  Support Masterpiece2000 09:23, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
•  Support That's a very good idea. --Thogo (talk) 10:13, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
•  Support Definitely needed in certain situations. →Spiritia 22:10, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
•  Support It would be very useful. --Kaaveh Ahangar 02:04, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
•  Support - but if it is fully neccesairy I do not know, because on several wiki's accountnames are changed when they are insulting, like to User:Vandal080705a. Romaine 13:29, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Image:Bookshelf-40x20.png

This GFDL image is used on the wikipedia.org main page (and all the equivalents for other projects) without any form of attribution or mention of the GFDL. Is this a GFDL violation or am I missing something? Anonymous101 19:27, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

You appear to be. I can see a GFDL template.--Cato 21:36, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

http://wikipedia.org does not mention GFDL and has no link to the image description with the GFDL template. /Ö 15:43, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

I created the original (somewhat simple and crude) image while designing the current wikipedia.org layout, and I confirm that it is GFDL (and am fine releasing to public domain or placing under Wikimedia copyright if desired). I also don't have any issue if someone would like to design a more refined "bookshelf" type image in its place -- the original considerations were fast loading, having a visual shorthand for the size of the wikis without the need for translations, and recognizability as "books" or "pages". I tried it with books of all the same size, to look more like a shelf of encyclopedias, but for most viewers it was less recognizable as books and not as an abstract rectangle. Catherine 16:03, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, I changed the license on the image description page to public domain. —{admin} Pathoschild 13:26:39, 05 July 2008 (UTC)

data mining in Special:Recent changes

Hi, I'd like to aggregate the data in Special:RecentChanges and do a data-mining on it. For example, it may show the hottest topics(like what wikirage is doing), new articles with most edits, users that contribute most contents, etc.

It seems possible to write a small php program to fetch the Special:RecentChanges into SQL, but there's over 240,000 changes in English wikipedia per day, the page can be extremely big[1]. Before I start to do this, I'm wondering if there's a wise way to aggregate these data. Thanks a lot! --Dulldull 07:56, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Any sort of aggregation will lose some information. If you know that what you lose is irrelevant, then it is safe to aggregate; otherwise, it isn't. For your purposes, you would need to retain the distinction between different editors and different articles, which allows very little scope for compression. You could convert multiple edits of the same article by the same editor to one line, but that would probably not give you a vast saving.--Poetlister 12:03, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

In any case you should use the API (recentchanges) and not Special:Recentchanges. Check the list=recentchanges (rc) section on api.php for documentation. --Erwin(85) 14:59, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Luckily I can hear this before i fetched the Special:RecentChange page. It's a great source to explore. Thanks for all the advices. --Dulldull 20:12, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Global userpage

I was thinking today that a global userpage function would be really handy for global users. Based here on Meta, one could design a "global" userpage that would appear as a kind of default userpage on every project that a given global user has not specifically logged in to, has edited, or has previously created a userpage on. For instance, if I were to create a global userpage, I'd make mine a redirect to my meta userpage:

"[[m:User:Anonymous Dissident]]"

I think this could be very handy; personally, I'd make all of my user pages on projects I don't edit on much be simply a redirect to my meta userpage anyway, but I'd have to do it manually, so this would be a very useful functionality for anyone in the same state of mind. Thoughts? --Anonymous Dissident^Talk 10:35, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Support, if it is a default page, which appears on accounts that are merged (auto or manual, not on all 745 ones), and that I can simly change them. For redirecting it would be great (I am sure, many users would use them for 50 KB selfpromotion, but you can not avoid this...), -jkb- (cs.source) 11:13, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

This is interesting. I have userpages on something like three dozen projects and they are mostly very similar.; I'd have more if creating them were a bit less tedious. I use subpages for different chunks of the page and pull them all together with with transclusion in the userpage proper. I think what this proposal basically entails is cross-wiki transclusion. Enabling that would be a truly great feature. I can think of several possible issues, so limits may be appropriate. Please, please, please, allow user-subpages, too. Cheers, Jack Merridew 12:24, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

I strongly support this idea, although how about the choice to choose what page is mirrored? I have some different content on my enwiki and meta userpages but would definitely create one in a meta user subpage e.g. a box in Preferences which says 'Mirrored userpage: User:E/mirroruser'. It's worth looking into and would be very helpful. — E ^talk 12:50, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

I don't think this is an appropriate use of resources, though I agree that user pages should by default have a soft-redirect to the home wiki of the global editor (as that is what most people do). Though that would require the ability to choose one's home wiki I suppose. Conrad.Irwin 22:42, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

"appropriate use of resources"? Care to expound on that? --Anonymous Dissident^Talk 00:08, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Interesting, and good idea. Support: Assuming it is, as said above, only the default, which can be changed simply by editing the local userpage. - Rjd0060 23:13, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

I have similar thoughts. I think this is quite easy as long as the function of global redirection is enabled. People can choose which wikis they like to host their usepages. Most wikipedians contribute on the wikipedia by default. --Phlyming 02:59, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Be warned that MANY user pages uses a lot of templates that are speciic to one site and will not work on another; don't forget also the case of links that don't work identically (different namlespaces, collisions and disambiguation pages); in addition, they also use interwikis to another project where the same user page will not make the interwiki link work as expected (due to something I consider a bug, e.g. "w:en:apple" would work on French wikipedia to link to the English fruit, but not on English WP, and "w:apple" on EN.WP would not work correctly on FR.WP where it would give the page for the computer manufacturer. Having common pages and templates is really too much tricky.

Some more ideas:

• On the opposite, having common preferences set automatically from the global account would allow reimporting automatically a few things like the user preferences, until the user starts creating content, where the preferences will be set locally and registered, then modifiable locally on each project.
• In addition, there could exist an option in the User preferences that will explicitly reimport and overwrite these items.
• Finally, user preferences are currently edited using only the configuration panel in the special page. However these preferences should have an history that can be ret by the user itself, to possibly revert a temporary change.
• Another thing to add in the user preferences profile: the babel wikicodes and levels (that are sharable). When using {{#babel:...}} the list would be prefilled with items from the global user preferences, and will appear at the top, then other items can be used only to override some levels when they are of the form "<recognized-language-code>-<number>", or to add other items specific to the local wiki.
• Note another related bug: the <languageslist/> is currently not sorted at all! This combobox is almost unusable: too hard to find any language in it!!! See for example the home page of Betawiki...

90.45.93.218 06:42, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

I think a page managed from meta as a default (and modifiable) userpage for a global userpage is a good idea. seresin (¡?) 06:40, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

 Support This is a good idea. User pages may use some specific models which must be available on Meta. We also may have global monobook personnal scripts --DavidL 14:43, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Alternative: The WikiEditors Wiki

(Or some such name)

Personally, (and especially with all the new global permissions and such), I think that it would be far better to have all userpages on a separate wiki.

This would deal with quite a few issues.

Consider Wikipedia: en:wp:Wikipedia:Wikipedia is an encyclopedia. (Or Wiktionary, or any of the other sister projects)

Any page that doesn't directly serve each project can thus be removed/transwikied from each project. (This also deals with the google question concerning userpages and all other "non-project-specific" pages.)

And on the converse, this removes the need to have to keep an eye on over a dozen user talk pages. (user and user talk namespaces would be disabled on all wikimedia projects)

And implementation for linking? No problem, just set the wiki shortcut to be User: - thus, no need to change any pages to update links, they'd still automatically point to the users' page or talk page. (And User talk: to point to user:talk:).

And it also removes the "appearance" or "feeling" of separate projects. I would presume editors would be more likely to help out at other projects if this seeming wall which highlights too concretely the differences between them. When in truth, they are all wikis.

One thing this would likely eventually cause (however) is global behavioral guidelines/policies.

Content inclusion/disinclusion and naming and other style guidelines may be determined "locally", but editor behavior (such as civility and socking) will likely need to be drawn up globally. (And in some ways it has already I believe?)

And note, just to dispel any possible confusion, this proposal is not suggesting a change to anyone's wiki preferences, edits, watchlists, contrib history, or anything else tied to the user's username. This is merely proposing moving pages to this proposed wiki.

All-in-all, I think that having an editor wiki would be not just a "good thing", but a great thing.

(And for all I know, they may be working towards this already.)

Thoughts and/or concerns are welcome. - Jc37 02:37, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Statistics

I finished the basic variant of the set of programs which deal with Wikimedia statistics. You may see the first results at Template:Wikipedia statistics, Template:Wiktionary statistics, Template:Wikibooks statistics, Template:Wikinews statistics, Template:Wikisource statistics, Template:Wikiversity statistics, Template:Wikiquote statistics and Template:Wikimedia statistics. --Millosh 13:08, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Here is the short description of the programs (I'll upload the code at Meta in the next couple of days): --Millosh 13:08, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

• Program "projs.py" is updating projects list once per week:
  • The main purpose of that program is to dump data with codes (and languages) and language names of the main content projects. It is testing every week do we have some new language at the projects other than Wikipedia. Wikipedia codes and language names are taken from Language names page. --Millosh 13:08, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
  • It can't guess new languages or the names of multilingual projects (Meta, Commons, Labs...), so I should be poked when some of such projects become to exist (or I should find a way how to inform myself about that). Optionally, I may get all codes from Incubator (as I have some of them). --Millosh 13:08, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
• Program "getdata.py" is getting data at 00 and 30 minutes every hour (which means something like 5 and 30 minutes in reality). It is using raw statistics page (like http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:Statistics?action=raw). All statistics, with date and time information is stored (I'll find a way how to put those data somewhere online). So, from yesterday, it is possible to make hourly statistics. --Millosh 13:08, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
• Program "stats.py" and its modules are generating statistics and, run by cron, it updates statistics at 02:20 CET/CEST (which means 0:20 or 1:20 UTC). --Millosh 13:08, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
• Output is localized (User:Millbot/translations.py is the main page for bot-specific issues; Language names is the main page for language names translations). It may include multilingual templates, too. Actually, Meta "language" code is "multi", so there is the place for multilingual templates. --Millosh 13:08, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

As I mentioned, it is possible to make very detailed statistics: average edits per hour, changes at the daily level and so on. I am asking here for ideas and help in statistics implementation. I may make some SVG images from time to time. Also, in the future it would be possible to merge those data with not so precise statistics and generate long-term statistics; as well as it is possible to make queries at Toolsever and get precise data from the past (I hope so). --Millosh 13:08, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Global deleted image review

There is a new proposal, Global deleted image review which will grant commons admins the ability to view deleted image and image talk pages on all projects, no other namespaces or sysop rights will be granted by this proposal. Please see the proposal for details.

This proposal has had extensive discussion on the lists, commons admin noticeboard, and elsewhere. It is believed that the current proposal addresses the needs of commons and the interests of our member projects.

The vote will be conducted for two weeks and end on July 6th 2008. If additional time is required to advertise this poll to other major wikis the poll may be extended. All active participants on commons using Wikimedia projects are welcome to vote, no meta activity is required but voters should link back to their home wiki userpages. This proposal will only be approved if it shows substantial support from users at many projects.

If the proposal is approved the actual implementation may need to wait until the version of mediawiki for support for this behavior becomes live on the Wikimedia sites.

Support

1.  Support w:User:Gmaxwell commons:User:Gmaxwell --Gmaxwell 21:46, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
2.  Support --ShakataGaNai ^{^_^} 21:47, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
3.  Support -mattbuck (Talk) 21:49, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
4.  Support - As it has the namespace restrictor I was concerned about, it passes my criteria. MBisanz ^talk 21:53, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
5.  Support - Multichill 21:55, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
6.  Support --ChrisiPK 21:57, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
7. --MZMcBride 21:59, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
8.  Support Greeves ^{(talk • contribs)} 22:00, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
9. Finally, a useful application of global rights. — Dan | talk 22:02, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
10.  Support Luckily somebody was bold enough to pick up my proposal :) This proposal will hopefully make it easier for Commons admins to weed out the bad files and will thus benefit the whole Wikimedia community. -- Bryan (talk|commons) 22:02, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
11.  Support a perfectly reasonable example of how global userrights can be properly and usefully assigned. Prodego ^talk 22:10, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
12.  Support, would be handy for Commons admins — VasilievV ² 22:12, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
13.  Support Would be very useful yes, I am a Wikimedia Commons administrators with unified and global account, and as this is "read only" it expect it will not be controversial at the various other projects. Finn Rindahl 22:13, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
14.  Support – this proposal seems perfectly reasonable. Commons admins are already trusted to deal with images which are globally available, and a read-only permission for only the Image and Image talk namespaces seems like it could be useful while causing no harm. Nihiltres^(t.u) 22:23, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
15. support —DerHexer (Talk) 22:45, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
16.  Support Definitely useful for Commons admins, will also save us having to constantly search out admins on numerous other wikis just to look at a deleted file for us. No risks and lots of benefit. -- Editor at Large • talk 22:51, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
17.  Support Emesee 22:53, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
18.  Support — Platonides 22:55, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
19.  Support — H92 (t · c · no) 22:55, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
20.  Support ken123 22:57, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
21.  Support Mr.Z-man 22:59, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
22.  Support, as a moderately active Commons admin, I find situations where this would be useful at least once a week (today being the latest) —LX (talk, contribs) 23:05, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
23.  Support Hardscarf 23:06, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
24.  Support --Revolus Echo der Stille 23:07, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
25.  Support, seems that it will make things lots easier for Commons admins. I wouldn't mind the considerations Effeietsanders brought up to be addressed, though. -- Natalya 23:09, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
26.  Support -- Marcus Cyron 23:18, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
27.  Support, of course. The positive aspects clearly outdo the negative aspects. --EivindJ 23:19, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
28.  Support This would solve so many problems. Rocket000 23:51, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
29. Yep. --Conti 23:57, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
30.  Support Less work for local admins, potensially more images on commons. Kagee 23:59, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
31.  Support. I see the need for this and I think it is a very sensible solution. I am unconvinced by the oppose comments. --Bduke 00:06, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
32.  Support --Walter Siegmund (talk) 00:07, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
33.  Support Benefits will be vast. Potential for misuse is small. --pfctdayelise 00:10, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
34.  Support Certainly, this will help Commons admins determine deleted images status on other wikis that were moved to the Commons. Gizmo II 00:16, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
35.  Support --Harrywad 00:31, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
36.  Support, this will assist Commons admins do a better job of assisting the projects which use the media on Commons. John Vandenberg 00:35, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
37.  Support. As a sysop on the English Wikipedia I've had to field requests for information that this proposal would have made directly available, streamlining this process, and I don't see much of a downside. —David Eppstein 00:37, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
38.  Support auburnpilot (en.wiki) 00:38, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
39.  Support It would be nice if any admin could browse deleted images on commons too (moving images to local wiki etc.). Beau (talk) 00:46, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
40.  Support --Szczepan talk  00:49, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
41.  Support Ala z 00:58, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
42. GRBerry 00:57, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
43. per Prodego. giggy _(:O) 01:04, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
44.  Support 555 01:07, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
45.  Support Unlike the global sysops proposal above, which do make changes to wiki databases, this proposal's goals do not make changes to any one wiki's database. Furthermore, this proposal's goals can eliminate communication problems with unsuspecting users on other wikis. --O (谈 • висчвын) 02:18, 23 June 2008 (GMT)
46.  Support The proposal would greatly improve the ability of the Commons admins to do their job, and I see no downside in simply allowing them to view (note: not restore) deleted images and image pages. --jonny-mt ^{en me!} 02:27, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
47.  Support I've fielded quite a few of these requests, over the past two years, so I know it could potentially save the commons people quite a lot of hassle to streamline the process. I do share the concerns about image oversight, but that's something we should be working on, regardless, no? Luna Santin 03:18, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
48.  Support --CComMack 04:01, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
49.  Support --Carnildo 04:05, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
50.  Support - Robotje 04:13, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
51.  Support -- BJ^Talk 04:29, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
52.  Support --Florian Adler 04:38, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
53.  Support --Joergens.mi 05:00, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
54. Support --Willscrlt (Talk) 04:52, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
55. Support. Wenn sie im Müll wühlen wollen, warum nicht. Syrcro 05:01, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
56.  Support because that might really ease an often occuring problem with images moved from wp to Commons. --Túrelio 06:05, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
57.  Support --MichaelMaggs 06:31, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
58.  Support --Geiserich77 06:53, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
59.  Support --Stormie 06:56, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
60.  Support --habakuk 08:06, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
61.  Support --Nolispanmo 08:07, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
62.  Support --Millosh 08:55, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
63.  Support Saves time and media. Siebrand 09:12, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
64.  Support I know what trouble they can have with deleted licensing etc etc. Viridae^Talk 09:15, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
65.  Support - give commons admins the tools they need. Angela 09:16, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
66.  Support – reason: [2] --32X 09:30, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
67.  Support as per jonny-mt. I understand the concerns about image oversight, but I agree with Mattbuck and Gregory. --Jastrow 09:41, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
68. --Noddy93 10:06, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
69. support - and I suggest reciprocity, as it would be tremendously helpful if admins on the other projects could review content, deleted on Commons without having to bother their admins. --h-stt !? 10:08, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

    I've thought about reciprocity but I think the permission which would make most sense for the local->commons direction is the ability to protect image pages. ... though flagged revisions may ultimately make that moot. --Gmaxwell 14:56, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

70.  Support - In my experience it's too difficult and time consuming to get hold of an admin who is willing to verify if the source and licensing shown in the history of a deleted local image match Commons standards. Most often this leads to the deletion of the image on Commons as unknown, which is a loss not just for the original wiki and Commons, but to all Wikimedia projects. This proposal solves the problem when the people verifying these things can actually do their work. --Para 10:37, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
71.  Support --Ecemaml 10:42, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
72.  Support --Aqwis 10:51, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
73.  Support, Btd 10:53, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
74.  Support This will make the work of any commons-sysop easyer. abf /talk to me/ 10:56, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
75.  Support Kameraad Pjotr 11:00, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
76.  Support -- Discostu 11:08, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
77.  Support --HAL Neuntausend 11:09, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
78. --Nemo 11:32, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
79.  Support I am unsure why there should be any particular controversy about being able to view an image. Sure - image oversight is required & I would hope would be here soon, however frequently deletion requests on Commons make reference to deletions on other wikis (I had one today) & it is good to be able to check the fact rather than risk mistakes. --Herby ^{talk thyme} 11:45, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
80.  Support --Kjetil r 11:45, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
81.  Support - With the current proposal I don't see any reason why people would oppose it. Althought it might be necessary to create a new global permissions group, this isn't as much of a hassle as the current system is, and it's only a hassle on the front-side rather than a hassle throughout. With only the ability to see deleted pages and revisions, and only in the Image: and Image talk: namespaces, there shouldn't be anything controversial about this. Lifebaka 11:59, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
82. Zanaq 12:06, 23 June 2008 (UTC) Seems like an excellent opportunity to improve the service of commons to the other projects.
83.  Support ZorroIII 12:15, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
84.  Support - definitely an important thing. →Christian.И 12:27, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
85.  Support --Jón 12:32, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
86.  Support --Guandalug 12:34, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
87.  Support --::Slomox:: >< 12:37, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
88.  Support --Tinz 12:53, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
89. Ucucha 13:08, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
90.  Support, while noting that oversight is a problem, but not a big enough one to stop this from going ahead, IMO. rev_deleted may well be around the corner, but even if it is not, we're talking about only viewdeleted. This is absolutely not a significant risk to other wikis; many/most of the oppose opinions amount to arguments against wikis, not against this proposal. If you're worried about us seeing things which should have been oversighted, then they should have been oversighted (even if it requires developer intervention - annoying them is one way to spur work on rev_deleted).  — Mike.lifeguard | ^@en.wb 13:09, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
91.  Support No ability to take action means projects aren't being externally controlled. Helping to avoid having the foundation sued into oblivion is an overriding factor too. WilyD 14:12, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
92.  Support It will make my job reviewing image with faulty permissions so much more easier. Maxim_(talk) 14:31, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
93.  Support It is needed. Majorly ^talk 14:38, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
94. Seems to be mostly harmless. Angus McLellan (enwiki talk) 14:58, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
95.  Support The risk is overrated, and the benefits are great. -- Atluxity 15:11, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
96.  Support rather common problem. Implementing this policy will greatly speed verifying licences. Rama 15:32, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
97.  Support, should make Commons admins' job easier, with not much of a risk -- Imperator3733 16:03, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
98.  Support --buecherwuermlein 16:32, 23 June 2008 (UTC) per 95.
99.  Support - Silver Spoon 16:47, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
100.  Support Deleting stuff to protect privacy is bad practice, I think the advantages clearly overweight the risks. Note that would this to be implemented, all wikis should be notified so they can take the appropriate measures (eg. oversight, once it is available for images). -- lucasbfr ^talk 17:01, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
101.  Support - As I'm no commons-mod (I'm on nl-wiki) I made a few conversations with commons-moderators and as it seems, there are quite some benefits. As I do not see major risks involved in granting these permissions, I support. Mwpnl 17:39, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
102.  Support Great idea. --Flominator 18:04, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
103. --S^[1] 18:56, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
104.  Support This is an excellent proposal MiCkE 19:11, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
105.  Support - Bemoeial 19:18, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
106.  Support --dapete disputa! 20:32, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
107.  Support Edgar181 20:55, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
108.  Support Herr Kriss 21:39, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
109.  Support Vitally needed feature for the Commons sysops, and it in no way infringes local wikis independence. Fully support. →Spiritia 22:23, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
110.  Support howcheng {chat} 00:27, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
111.  Support Zscout370 01:10, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
112.  Support, Nakon 01:14, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
113. Notwithstanding the (valid) oversight concerns...  Support ++Lar: t/c 03:42, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
114.  Support --alexscho 16:18, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
115.  Support It is useful for Commons' admins.--Ahonc 19:04, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
116.  Support Useful, focused and as restricted as one could reasonably expect. - BanyanTree 22:57, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
117.  Support Useful proposal helping establishing of interproject dependencies. The dangers are greatly overrated. In fact I would make it even less restrictive: any admin on any WMF project can view deleted images on any other WMF project. That way we can simplify handling of cases then one image is referenced to a self-made image on another project and then was consequently deleted. Also many images deleted on Commons could be re-uploaded locally according to the rules of local projects (e.g. EDP). Alex Bakharev 03:41, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
118.  Support Wikimedia Commons admins really do need this. --Kanonkas 07:49, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
119. wtf? there are opposes? --Dodo von den Bergen 16:04, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
120.  Support DGG 19:50, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
121.  Support The amount of times I've had to whine other projects admins to "please have a look at this deleted image" justifies this. We're not asking to sell your soul, it's just to see some deleted content. Patrícia ^msg 20:37, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
122.  Support, by all means. An admin on Commons can delete an image shared among several projects, I can't imagine why one would oppose the same person seeing an image deleted on a local project. My first reaction was identical to Dodo von den Bergen's above ("wtf? there are opposes?"). --Gutza 21:40, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
123.  Support I won't have any use for it, but I know plenty of people who this will greatly benefit. Perhaps the oversight concerns will spur adoption of the enhanced deletion system? ~Kylu (u|t) 05:01, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
124.  Support Forrester 09:32, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
125.  Support good idea. Bapti 20:15, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
126. Seems fine. Acalamari 21:00, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
127.  Support Leonard^Bloom 03:52, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
128.  Support --OosWesThoesBes 04:23, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
129. --Euku 08:59, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
130. I see no valid reasons to oppose this, but many valid reasons to support this, including the utility it will provide, and the need it will fill. --Anonymous Dissident^Talk 09:41, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
131.  Support --Mormegil (cs) 10:12, 27 June 2008 (UTC) The possibility of misuse (including by mistake) is extremely limited, and this feature would help Commons admins a lot.
132.  Support RedCoat 11:44, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
133.  Support - Seems like a very good way to help Commons admins do their job. Parent5446 13:13, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
134.  Support A good and reasonable proposal. Captain panda 14:08, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
135.  Support it would tremendously help Commons admins do their job. A lot of transfers from other Wikipedias hide copyvios. Good proposal. Renata3 14:17, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
136.  Support as a Commons admin; this will make our lives much easier. Angr 15:10, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
137.  Support - in contrary to oppositions below and oppositions to #Global sysops (poll) to my opinion we cant work "in common", if local WPs etsteem their deletions policies (and accordingly what is deleted) as privat affair to be hidden from the international community or other local WPs. restriction to Image: and Image talk: namespaces seems appropriate -- W!B: 15:41, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
138.  Support One use which immediately comes to mind: when an image has been deleted from en.wikipedia, because it duplicates an image on Wikimedia Commons, but the original uploader is not identified in the commons file. If the uploader has not been identified in the deletion log, the only way to retrieve that information is by viewing the deleted page. — Athaenara (contribs) 18:01, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
139.  Support this will help commons and inter project relationships --— The preceding unsigned comment was added by Legoktm (talk) 18:44, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
140.  Support Almost no chance of abuse, and it should be very helpful Alexfusco⁵ 22:11, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
141.  Support We already trust them to delete a Commons image, why not trust them to view any image? They are highly unlikely to abuse this privilege. They need this ability to be able to see the edit history of images transwiki'ed to Commons because sometimes transwiki'ed images don't have all of the necessary information. Royalbroil 05:27, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
142.  Support, occasionally it is extremely helpful see the deleted content when making the decisions that we expect Admins to make. We direct Wiki's to take images off their own servers and place the images on commons, We have transferred the responsibility to Commons admins for images moved globally we need to also grant the resources to allows then to review deleted images globally. Jeepday 13:04, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
143.  Support Commons admins are expected to facilitate the management of all free media files, this feature would assist in doing so. Adambro 13:20, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
144.  Support I find the opposes below that run along the lines of "I don't trust commons admins because..." to be a significant breach of AGF, policy on en.wiki and common sense elsewhere. This proposal will not give commons admins the ability to do anything on other wikis without the RfA support of that community, but will enable them to do their job on commons much more effectively. Much ado about nothing, IMHO. Happy‑melon 17:02, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
145.  Support Commons has a unique role because images there can be picked up from any other site (and indeed, some sites such as EN:WQ have hardly any images of their own but rely on Commons). Thus it is appropriate for Commons admins to have very limited cross-wiki functions.--Cato 12:09, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
146.  Support It would be of great use to Commons Admins in verifying Images Histories. --Mifter 20:21, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
147.  Support, sensible and useful. TimVickers 20:57, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
148.  Support, I have seen many cases where an image was copied to commons from some wikipedia without enough details except from a link to the original file in wikipedia, then deleted from that wikipedia leaving the commons image without any source details or other information (author's name for example). This function will be useful for Commons admins to check an image about copyright problems. Geraki ^T_L 07:15, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
149.  Support. This would save me a lot of time and trouble verifying licenses. --Eleassar ^{my talk} 07:26, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
150.  Support. Useful, will improve Wikimedia. No drawbacks that merit serious concern. Quadell 13:02, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
151.  Support I see no major problems that could result from this and I'm sure it will be very useful for Commons admins. Thingg 13:36, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
152.  Support. Sensible idea with clear cross-wiki benefits. WjBscribe 20:35, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
153.  Support Londenp 08:04, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
154.  Support per WJBscribe. EN WP userpage --Chaser 10:14, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
155.  Support - a great improvement. Xenus 14:01, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
156.  Support - a great improvement which will help in the running of commons. Anonymous101 09:21, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
157.  Support - while I appreciate the concern that users trusted by one project community may be less trusted by another, I don't think the risk for simply viewing deleted images poses a significant problem.--Ragesoss 02:17, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
158.  Support - if this feature works to be able to check folr copyrightstatus and other it would be a good idea. Romaine 13:50, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Oppose

1. for now:  Oppose Effeietsanders 22:17, 22 June 2008 (UTC) - This is because oversighting of images is not possible. This feature would give a lot more people access to locally deleted images (well, on most wiki's :) ), which can contain privacy sensitive information. Since there is no better way to remove information like this then to delete them, this feature would make it harder to hide that type of information. I would be supportive if this bug in the oversight function is fixed. Please correct me if this has been done already.

   If you can't hide it from the admins on that project, why would you need to hide it from admins on Commons? --ChrisiPK 22:47, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

   It is about the scale. Not the people. Effeietsanders 22:52, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

   I suppose you could oversight the image page, which is where the privacy sensitive information could be (such as uploaders name and address). What sensitive information do you expect to be on the image itself? Platonides 22:55, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

   En.Wikipedia (where most of the problem images come from) has many many more sysops than commons, commons only has 243, en.wiki has 1,563. It is less than a 10th of the size, so scale doesn't seem applicable. Of course, a commons admin would also have to somehow know on what wiki, what image to look for, with no clue how to find it. Prodego ^talk 22:58, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

   If you oppose because of oversight issues, surely it is also important that if there is an issue which requires oversight on an image, that that image be similarly protected on commons? -mattbuck (Talk) 23:10, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

   If you have an image which needs oversighting you can ask a developer to do it. I've had it done at least a half dozen times for child porn and similar cases. Also, The bitfields for rev_deleted feature in mediawiki (already in the code but not activated on WMF wikis) allows oversighting of images by users. Considering that EnWP and most other large wikis are forcefully directing users to commons the number of cases of private data being leaked only in deleted images on the local Wiki should be very low indeed. Effectively commons can already see your local wiki's privacy deleted images: because most of them are being uploaded to commons. --Gmaxwell 23:25, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

   The information is often on the image itself, oversighting the description page often doesn't suffice.

   Oviously, I am not concerned about enwiki, which indeed has already way too many admins, but about the smaller wiki's, with which this would often mean a huge increase in people with this type of access.

   It sounds nice to have to approach a developer, but this is not something that is easily done. If the image would be on commons as well, this argument of course doesn't apply. And no, not all images are uploaded to commons. Maybe a lot from the larger wiki's, but not all, especially if they are deleted quickly. Effeietsanders 06:33, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

   All WMF wikis (except commons) limit upload to autoconfirmed users now. I'm not sure which class of deleted-quickly image you're thinking of, but most such images are already going to commons. --Gmaxwell 14:58, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

2.  Oppose Waerth 22:28, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
3.  Oppose After reviewing the proposal, I don't think this is necessary. Other people have similar problems (i.e.: OTRS people trying to get deleted images restored) and all it takes is a note on wiki someplace, or a note on IRC. - Rjd0060 23:11, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

   That is true, but it also means wasted time all round - local admins need to search for something that they may well know nothing about, and it stops them dealing with local issues. It also annoys them when commons admins have to continually ask for their assistance - commons admins doing this sort of work may have to deal with over a hundred images in a single day. -mattbuck (Talk) 23:19, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

   It may just be a strange coincidence, but I've never seen any instance that this would solve. I may just be missing it, but...(of course I'm not a commons admin). - Rjd0060 23:22, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

   That is probably because most images that would be solved by this "feature" are currently deleted. It is far too much effort to hunt admins down right now to get information. --ShakataGaNai ^{^_^} 23:35, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

   With all respect, as both a commons admin and and OTRS user, I do not agree that the situation is at all the same. Many OTRS users are primarily active for tickets related to home wiki's where they are already Sysops. The jobs of OTRS involve far more than just viewing deleted. Tickets requiring privileged access for the OTRS user's non-primary wiki are fairly rare except for small wiki issues and for smaller wikis the Global sysop proposal (if it ever passes) will address their needs.

   Commons has hundreds of thousands of images brought from other projects with incomplete information. Every time I attempt to do an orderly review of many images I am constantly frustrated by images from other projects. I live with an enwp admin, and have ready access to people on IRC for at least a couple of other projects... but every time I need to check something off wiki what would be a couple of clicks is converted into minutes of nagging and explaining. The net result of this is that people simply skip doing the work and instead focus on easier activities. As far as need, checkout the comments by the commons admins. :)--Gmaxwell 23:25, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

   I fixed your link gmaxwell. Remember the interwiki! --ShakataGaNai ^{^_^} 23:46, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

   I see your point. Still opposing, for the same reason. - Rjd0060 23:28, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

   It's not really about solving a problem, since as you say a solution already exists. It's about providing a solution which is less tiresome for all involved - commons admins don't have to wait around for days waiting for a reply on low activity projects, and local admins on active projectsdon't get bugged by commons people who just want to know whether a file had a source originally. It takes at least ten times as long to explain to someone what you want than it would to just get in and do it - especially in a foreign language where you need to translate every sentence you type. -mattbuck (Talk) 23:30, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

4. I'm not against this particular proposal, per se, but I am concerned about the issue of global rights proposals in general. I'd like to see this proposal, if it is adopted, modified to specify (irrevocably) that all use of global rights will be done in accordance with local policy governing such use, and I'd like it to be reinforced that global rights (this one, global sysops, whatever else) are subordinate to local rights in all cases. Additionally - once the technical opt out for global sysop is implemented, it should be done so that the same opt out impacts all global rights (including this one). Avruch 00:12, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

   The ability to opt out of every global right is silly. Groups are going to want to opt out of one policy or another, and sooner or later 50% of all wiki's have opted out of all global rights... and global rights are useless. People seem to forget that Commons admins already have pseudo-global rights. We control the pictures you use. --ShakataGaNai ^{^_^} 00:26, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

   The point is to prevent a short discussion and vote on meta from implementing changes on all local wikis, even if those local projects object. Meta proposals that pass should not take precedence over local project policies, and the adoption of new user rights needs to respect that. This policy should specifically require commons admins to adhere to local policies regarding the use of global user rights, and if the devs are going to enable global right opt-outs anyway they might as well include them all (except steward). Avruch 00:36, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

5.  Oppose - admins on individual projects are able to view deleted revisions and files because they have individual community trust. Unfortuantely, as an admin on en.wiki, there's a few admins on commons that I wouldn't personally trust to start viewing deleted images on en.wiki. Whilst overall we are one big project, we do operate as seperate entities - trust on one, does not mean trust on another. Ryan Postlethwaite 00:17, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

   What is it about them being able to see your deleted images don't you trust? They can't undelete them - all they can do is see them. --ShakataGaNai ^{^_^} 00:19, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

   I am also confused about quite what might be wrong with someone seeing a deleted image if they can't do anything with it. When you consider it, commons admins are global anyway - what we do can affect all other wikis. This proposal would allow us to minimise disruption on other projects, and possibly allow us to keep more images. Also, commons admins are already somewhat global - we can delete images which may be used on any number of projects, just for kicks. Yet you don't see any problems - we know our jobs, and we know what is reasonable. Allowing us to view your deleted images costs you nothing, but will make life easier for admins on every project. -mattbuck (Talk) 00:26, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

   People seem to think that the only images uploaded to individual projects are free, fair use, or copyrighted images - that's not true. The reason why we stop all users viewing deleted revisions is because there are many other problems associated with them - harassment, attack revisions, BLP revision e.t.c.. The problems with deleted revisions aren't limited to individual edits, they're within images as well. There are many deleted images on en.wiki that I don't trust in the hands of all the commons admins - trolls use images to harass or attack other editors and I within the en.wiki commiunity at least, there's one or two commons admins that aren't seen as the most constructive and have previously failed to gain the communities trust - I don't trust them with images that aren't the run of the mill. Ryan Postlethwaite 00:38, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

   No, we're aware that some free images are local, and that's fine. However, your problem with us viewing deleted images - first off, in 99.999% of cases the images we want to see were deleted because they were on commons. As for the other ones, we'd have to find them, and why would we bother? You seem to believe that commons admins are somehow untrustworthy because they haven't bothered with RfAs on en.wikipedia. We went through our own RfA process, and if there is a problem, you could always just tell us about it on commons:COM:AN. I still fail to see though just how allowing us to see deleted revisions - and I stress this, be completely unable to do anything with them OTHER than see them - is at all controversial. -mattbuck (Talk) 08:32, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

   By viewing deleted revisions, I presume you'd be able to see deleted revisions of the actual image files - sorry, but as I said, I don't trust some commons admins with some of the deleted images we have on en.wiki - the harassment and attack images could easily be used by them and passed onto other people. If they want to have the trust of a community to view these deleted files, they should become admins on that project. Ryan Postlethwaite 13:12, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

6.  Oppose Projects are independent of each other. Surely all it takes is a note on the talk. I think this is problematic.NonvocalScream 01:29, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

   Well I'd just like to point out that all projects are independent of each other - except for Commons. Commons affects everyone and every project. To my knowledge no projects don't use Commons. In fact many are shutting down local image uploads in favor of forcing users to use Commons instead. As for your "note on the talk" - note on the talk of what? Talk page of the deleted image that more than likely no one is watching any more? What if someone responds? I can't possibly visit every wiki every day... We notify the uploaders (talk page) when an image is nominated for deletion, but what if the user used a bot? The bot isn't going to do anything and the user is more than likely not going to notice. Even when the users do know, most of the time they don't do anything. I've had more than a few users ask me what they can do, I tell them to contact the local admin... and 7 days later the image still isn't fixed and is deleted per our proccess. Local users don't want to bother finding an admin most of the time either. --ShakataGaNai ^{^_^} 03:48, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

7.  Oppose for now. I concur with Effeietsanders' "I would be supportive if this bug in the oversight function is fixed." – The proposal sounds very neat of course (I state this as a Commons admin myself), but privacy issues are important too (I think e.g. of several deleted images on de.wikipedia that show really private stuff that still await permanent "oversight/suppress" deletion, and I'm not very happy with 240+ more users being able to see these images without a good reason). --:Bdk: 02:09, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
8.  Oppose for now, and I am a commons admin as well. In theory, and in practice in the main, this is a good idea. However, the potential privacy abuse due to the current problems with not being able to properly oversight images really worries me. I do not think that the trust issue is as strong here, as the right would not allow any changes to the local wikis, just access to the images, but that is exactly the problem with the images that are and should not be (with apologies to Metallica) If we could enact oversight on the images containing children or other personal information that needs oversight, I would support this gladly. -- Avi 03:32, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
9.  Oppose As an admin on en:wikipedia where we have images awaiting permanent oversight, I am totally in agreement with User:Bdk and User:Ryan Postlethwaite. We don't need more users seeing sensitive material than we already have.--Sandahl 03:41, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

   Commons has more images than en.wp has articles. We have 3.6 times more images than en.wp does (Using en.wp since they are the "biggest" wp). It is safe to say we have our fair share of images that could use over-sighting as well. Why do we (Commons admins) need to go to other Wiki's to find these images? Generally local wiki's find these images - and ban the users.... Then the users come to Commons and repeat the process. --ShakataGaNai ^{^_^} 03:53, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

10.  Oppose per Effeietsanders and Bdk. "You can oversight those images" are not practical, since some community (and in the past almost all) tend to use deletion to hide sensitive information.　Commons has already over 100 admins: too much to allow to handle sensitive information. --Aphaia 03:46, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

    In fact according to Small and large wikis/Statistics, Commons has 241 admins. That being said en.wp has 1554 admins. In total less than 16% what en.wp has. That being said, we're admins, they are admins. Theoretically should it not be an equal level of trust when dealing with "sensitive" material? Not relating to how well they help the community - but just sensitive data. --ShakataGaNai ^{^_^} 04:00, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

    ShakataGaNai, your argument is pointless and illogical. I referred to "small" wikis. You pointed out enwiki would not be the case. Enwiki is the biggest among us and with its own oversight right granted users. You opposed me with what I have never said. Aphaia 11:01, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

    Well, there have been examples of commons admins havinbg RfA's that did not pass on enwiki, for what it is worth. -- Avi 04:02, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

    Furthermore, ShakataGaNai, while I agree that in general terms, as no changes to the local wiki can be made, I think that commons admins should be trusted with this right, if we can get the oversight of images implemented. I think that the small, but real, potential harm to a living, breathing person is something we need to give more weight to than our own personal "ease-of-use" when editing wiki. For us its an annoyance; for the person who is adversely affected by the image, it can be their entire piece-of-mind. One stalker is one stalker too many, and anything we can do to minimize the exposure is beneficial. -- Avi 04:10, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

    (re RFA's - edit conflicted) Um. Yea? I would hope so. I know that if I RFA'd on en.wp I wouldn't pass. Why? Because I don't do enough on en.wp to warrant admin tools (I do have a few thousand edits). There is a major difference between an RFA on en.wp and an RFA on Commons. On en.wp you are being trusted with tools that effect 2.5 million+ pages, and a community to go with it. On Commons you are being trusted with tools that effect 2.9+ million images, and 700+ wiki's. --ShakataGaNai ^{^_^} 04:17, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

    (re oversight). Do you guys maintain a list of what needs oversight? The dev's can do that manually right now? I know one right now willing to do it. Additionally, if we have a stalker in the ranks of Common admins - you tell me - We'll investigate. We're no different from any other group of admins, other than the fact that we have to take care of the images from 700+ projects. --ShakataGaNai ^{^_^} 04:17, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

    No, I was not accusing any commons admin of being a stalker, G-d forbid, but in my opinion, I weigh the small chance of increased risk to people against the large inconvenience, and I find the former more worrisome. You find the opposite, unless you think there is no increased chance at all. So we will agree to cordially disagree, at least until such time that a list that can be sent to the devs, or to rev_deletions authorized users, should that be implemented, can be created, and acted upon. -- Avi 04:21, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

11.  Oppose This will lead to some kind of semistewards on Commons, an I will very strongly advise against this kind of role as such. If any admins on Commons needs extended rights on specific projects they should be voted for at those projects. Jeblad 05:24, 23 June 2008 (UTC) (The proposal will effectively merge parts of the projects and as they ar independent today that will lead to serious problems when it comes to who has rights to do what and why. Likewise it will be very difficult to avoid a question about letting admins on the individual projects have the same rights on Commons. Actually I would say it is necessary to give them this right as a result of this vote alone because of the precedence it creates.)

    I entirely disagree with that Jeblad - commons admins deal with issues affecting every project, local admins (say on en) deal with issues affecting ONE project, and there is no need for them to see deleted contributions on other wikipedias. If we (commons admins) need extended rights, we can get them? That's rubbish. I would never pass an RfA on en, because I don't care to learn the 1000s of pages of rules, and because I was once blocked for violating WP:3RR. And I would certainly never pass an RfA on any other project - I created this meta account less than a week ago, and it is my third most active wiki. I believe I have made one edit to the thai wikipedia, and one to the hebrew. Besides, we don't WANT admin powers on these other projects - you're right, that would be dangerous. We don't want to delete stuff on en, we don't want to be able to block people on de, protect pages on fr.wikibooks - we just want to be able to find out where images came from without getting the local admins annoyed at us for nagging them all the time. It helps us and it helps admins on every other project. -mattbuck (Talk) 08:45, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

12.  Oppose --Sargoth 08:28, 23 June 2008 (UTC) for reasons see above
13.  Oppose This will give more users access to deleted images, which may contain sensitive information. I oppose this proposal. Commons may have fewer admins right now, but the number can increase. Masterpiece2000 09:15, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

    In the last week en.wikipedia approved 5 admins, commons approved one. If you are worried about people having access to sensitive deleted stuff - 1) get it oversighted, 2) stop all RfAs. -mattbuck (Talk) 09:21, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

14.  Oppose, -jkb- (cs.source) 09:19, 23 June 2008 (UTC): I understand the reason, but this privilege should not have all commons sysops; it would be enough that some five or ten of them (elected, trusted, estimated by bureaucrat...) have this right, but really not all. Probably, such a person should/could be confirmed by the lokal wiki. See Effeietsanders, Aphaia etc.

    Requiring the user to be confirmed by the local wiki would just put us right back where we started - waiting for goddo to come and give us the info we want. -mattbuck (Talk) 09:24, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

    It's Godot, not Goddo. Stifle 09:50, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

15.  Oppose per Effeietsanders, Bdk, etc. --Thogo (talk) 09:31, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
16.  Oppose. per above and: What about opt-out for large wikis? They have enough admins which are also Commons admins. And from the small wikis it would happen very rarely that an image is transferred from there to Commons, wouldn't it? Have you ever seen an image transferred from zu: Wikipedia to Commons? Or from ba:? So I see no reason for commons admins having this ability. --MF-W 09:42, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

    Why would there be opt-out for large Wiki's? en.wp is the largest, de.wp is up there too. That being said - they send us the most images that are problematic. We really need this for dealing with the largest wiki's the most, of course. As for the smallest, well, they don't send alot of pictures - but that doesn't mean they are less important. It would be rather sad if Commons had to delete 100% of all images transferred (All 1) from zu.wp to Commons - because it didn't have the necessarily information. Their admins are going to be even harder to find also. --ShakataGaNai ^{^_^} 18:01, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

    This exactly is the reason: The big projects have enough people which are admins there and on Commons to look up the deleted versions. --MF-W 13:49, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

17.  Oppose, not appropriate to extend such a large privilege to Commons sysops — best respect to them, but I do not have such a high level of trust in that particular position. Stifle 09:50, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
18.  Oppose As said before, there is no real need to enlarge the amount of users, which may see private information. Furthermore I do not trust commons-admins, as they are not really watched by a strong community. In such a sensitive field, this means way to less control. Denis Barthel 10:21, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

    not really watched by a strong community? That is just insulting. I'd say there's more community on commons than on en. -mattbuck (Talk) 10:27, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

    I'd say there's more community on commons than on en. Dunno. I am at home in de. en is not the only possible comparison. I have never experienced a lot of community in the commons. Denis Barthel 11:36, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

    Let's not get into "who community is nicest" please. Commons is a strong community & well watched by some. I do not see viewing image files as any threat to other projects, merely helpful in allowing Commons admins to do the job better. Thanks --Herby ^{talk thyme} 11:47, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

19.  Oppose - I don't say any reason for interproject-rights. Commons-Admins may be admins in their homewiki to get the rights discussed here, or should ask admins there -- Achim Raschka 12:08, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

    What if their home wiki is Commons? --O (谈 • висчвын) 16:27, 23 June 2008 (GMT)

    Commons is my Homewiki. I do almost no work anywhere else. I know more than a few of our Admins are the same way. Commons is there home and they spend all of their time there. --ShakataGaNai ^{^_^} 18:03, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

20.  Oppose - I took a long time coming to this decision, but I do not feel that the addition of global rights to view deleted images to Commons admins is a good thing - when collaborating with the local project admins is already a very workable and simple solution to the "problem". The commons noticeboard did not hinder the opposition, either, with members supporting a full "view all deleted items until it's technically possible to just let us see images". This proposal is removing local processes and granting powers that may not be required. --Skenmy 13:08, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

    Also, a technical opt-out needs to be made available for any global group on a per-wiki basis. --Skenmy 13:13, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

21. It should be solved in software, not by granting people more rights. If a media file is both on a local wiki and on commons, it shouldn't be deleted but marked as "on commons". That would not destroy information about the media file. Erik Warmelink 14:29, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

    I don't quite see how that would work, as not all the now-commons images were moved in a bit identical manner, and even if we were to invent something there are still an enormous number of images that were previously moved. Now that all project except commons require autoconfirm for upload (if local upload isn't entirely disabled) it's not a major issue going forward, but for the past activity it still is. I can't see there being a viable proposal which would undelete the several hundred thousand commons moved images on enwp alone. --Gmaxwell 14:31, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

    Please too all. Could you stop to comment all of the others comments? It's an arrogant behaviour and not in in a friendly way. Marcus Cyron 17:11, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

    I do not understand Erik's suggestion enough to see how it would be possible. He may have a great idea, but if I can not understand it I can't help make it happen. --Gmaxwell 17:56, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

    To quote Mattbuck "in 99.999% of cases the images we want to see were deleted because they were on commons". If commons doesn't want images to be deleted, make it so. That's rather easy for commons admins, if the "mother"-wiki of an image (or other media file) had deleted it, it is deleted on commons too; the deletionists will be treated like the vandals they are and 99.99% of the problems of commons admins with deleted images would be solved. That would cost some bandwidth if the servers wouldn't tell clients to reload images (but the servers do tell clients to reload images, so even that problem is moot). As a bonus, the people whose images (and other media files) are used can read the description in their own language. Well, they could protest the use of their images (&c.) in their own language too and that might be a problem. Erik Warmelink 02:42, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

    That's not really a technical issue, local admins would just need to stop deleting images, right? Rocket000 11:49, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

    Yes Erik Warmelink 02:42, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

22. Oppose, per Effeietsanders, Bdk, etc. And as Marcus said, stop commenting on opposing votes unless you really have found a point that's stated wrong. And no, not having your opinion does not mean the person is wrong. --Chrislb 17:42, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

    I'd say let them comment. That way their concerns can be addressed. For all the comments I've left, I don't think I've told a single person they are "wrong". Certainly not. This is a vote and people are entitled to their opinion. But maybe someone is making a misinformed decision, maybe we can help fix that. Plus, for every comment left - we gain a little more insight about what people don't like and want. So if this should pass, we will have a baseline for policy on how to use it. If it doesn't pass, we know what to fix for next time around. --ShakataGaNai ^{^_^} 18:06, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

    I'd like to add a short note: People on commons have much work to do and I appreciate the huge pile they go through each and every day. Though I still don't appreciate the technical implications, and I believe the overall system should be changed instead of going the "easy way" of giving global rights. --Chrislb 18:43, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

    What "Technical implications"? You mean the worry that someone on commons will get ahold of "dangerous" images. Also - How do you suggest the "overall system should be changed"? I only see two options right now: #1 - All wiki's start doing a proper job of transferring images (or not transferring the ones lacking critical information). Or #2 - All wiki's stop transfering images period. Of course neither of the "options" I can see fix the 100k or so images that are already on Commons that we will eventually have to delete. --ShakataGaNai ^{^_^} 19:33, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

    If I've believed this to be a good place to discuss these topics I would've been more precise on what I meant, I do actually prefer discussing on discussion pages. While being at it: Mediawiki is a bad system for a multilingual media file repository. The infrastructure evolving around it thus is crippled. Then again giving common admins access to local data is a simple solution though not doing anything about the real problems. --Chrislb 19:53, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

23.  Oppose because this is the wrong place to ask for this right. Ask for this right on the various Wikis: Maybe the English Wikipedia will say "sure, global sysops can view our deleted images" but the French Wiki will say "no" or vice-versa. Rephrase the question to "Create the technical infrastructure to allow Wikis to grant global sysops deleted-image-viewing rights" then I'd say yes in a heartbeat. However, as long as the proposal is to force this down every wiki's throat, I'm adamantly opposed. By the way, if the proposal is raised on a Wiki I participate in, I will probably vote "yes" for that particular Wiki. Davidwr 18:17, 23 June 2008 (UTC) rephrasing per comment below # because this is the wrong place to ask for this right. Ask for this right on the various Wikis: Maybe the English Wikipedia will say "sure, specific people who are not our administrators can view our deleted images" but the French Wiki will say "no" or vice-versa. Rephrase the question to "Create the technical infrastructure to allow Wikis to grant global sysops deleted-image-viewing rights" then I'd say yes in a heartbeat. However, as long as the proposal is to force this down every wiki's throat, I'm adamantly opposed. By the way, if the proposal is raised on a Wiki I participate in, I will probably vote "yes" for that particular Wiki. 76.185.205.210 02:39, 24 June 2008 (UTC) <-- note this timestamp is after the first comment below.

    Commons administrators are not global sysops (if there were such a thing and Commons administrators were it, they wouldn't need this ability, since this ability is a very limited read-only subset of administrative privileges), and this proposal has nothing to do with the global sysops proposal. —LX (talk, contribs) 00:47, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

24. I can't support global permissions without the permission of the local communities as well. If it came to a vote on the English Wikipedia, I would vote in favor of this, but I can't support this policy without the ability for individual project opt-out, because I feel strongly that local projects should be able to control themselves. Ral315 (talk) 19:49, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
25.  Oppose I see this as taking too much power out of the hands of the local wikis. We might not know someone's getting sysoped on commons, we may have info about their trustworthiness that isn't addressed on commons. If someone misbehaves in a way that makes us not want them to have access to sensitive stuff on a local wiki, how will we deal with that, by going through a process at commons? I feel like a better way might be an unbundling of image viewing that can take place on individual wikis; that way people from that project could retain control. Seems like there'd be more accountability that way. Delldot 20:26, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

    An unbundling of image viewing? Could you explain that please? And this is taking absolutely no power away from anyone. Commons admins can't do anything other than view deleted images, and local admins still have all their power. As for seeing sensitive stuff, get it oversighted then there's no problem. Besides, we're not on the lookout for your dirty laundry, we just want to be able to do our jobs. -mattbuck (Talk) 21:20, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

    Sorry, I didn't make myself very clear. I was thinking of unbundling the viewing deleted image right on the local wikis, the way rollback has been unbundled on en. Yeah, that would require the right to be given out on each wiki, much more cumbersome, unfortunately. But this would allow the local wiki to retain power over who has these rights on their wiki. My concern was more along the lines of someone being trusted on commons but not necessarily on other wikis. I certainly didn't mean to imply that I wanted local admins to retain more power, yuck! :P I was more talking about the power to hold people accountable for what they do on that wiki. Hope I'm being clear now, but if I'm not definitely feel free to ask for more clarification. Delldot 21:55, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

26. I  Oppose for the reasons above. --Albert galiza 21:58, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
27.  Oppose For the reasons above. --Sozi 12:57, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
28.  Oppose If Commons admins want the ability to view deleted image and image talk pages on a project, they should be an admin on that project. Just because a Commons admin is trusted on Commons, does not necessarily mean local projects trust them.--Rockfang 09:39, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

    There are 700+ projects. Requiring any particular commons admin to be a full blown admin on all 700+ is not practical... This is a limited permission, made possible by the new global groups functionality, not full blown adminship. It enhances the ability of Commons admins to investigate deletions and movements of images, and improve descriptions and licensing, which benefits all 700+ projects. But it is a passive permission only, it does not grant any active rights like restoration. ++Lar: t/c 15:29, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

29.  Oppose per what Ral said. I'm pretty sure that some commons admins/crats would fail in other languages' RfA. If they can examine something deleted in, say french wikipedia, without letting the French community to examine this candidate, that's a major flaw. OhanaUnited^{Talk page} 17:08, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

    I'm fairly sure alot of us would (fail), simply because we aren't active in those communities. A good portion of what RfA is, is a vote to see if the community is comfortable with giving that person god like powers (read: delete stuff). I know I wouldn't pass an RfA on en.wp, because I barely do anything there. For myself and a lot of Commons admins, Commons is our home project - not just something we do in our spare time. At the same time, we're not asking for full admin permissions on every project, we're not even asking for half of the permissions, just one tiny view ability. So I'm not sure why the idea of an "RfA" is even involved. --ShakataGaNai ^{^_^} 18:13, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

    I'm referring to those that're active in both commons and their native language. OhanaUnited^{Talk page} 21:44, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

30.  Oppose - I oppose this for the reason I gave at Commons. A user whom the English Wikipedia has explicitly decided not to trust with the admin tools should not be given a subset of those tools by another Wiki. If it were possible for an individual wiki to remove the permission from a particular user (ie, it is automatically granted to all Commons admins, but any local crat can take it away upon either abuse or community decision), then I wouldn't see a problem with it. As an enwiki admin, I have not been working image issues as much as I used to, but when I did, I would frequently find a copyvio image has been moved to Commons and then need to go find someone there to delete it. Should enwiki admins be given partial adminships on Commons so that we can delete images without having to trouble ourselves with the local processes/customs? No? Then why would you have other wikis do the same for Commons? --B 22:10, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

    Well the permission to delete images is different then the permission to view the deleted content. Furthermore, Commons Administrators were made admins on Commons because they have been trusted to work with images on commons and this permission is for verification of licenses. Alexfusco⁵ 22:17, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

    What do you define as "explicitly decided not to trust". About the only case that I can think of, is that someone has been banned (wouldn't be able to access it anyways) - or a user that has had their Adminship revoked (is it not possible for them to learn from their mistakes?). Any other case (say a failed RFA) is not "explicit" it is simply a failure to garner the needed support (Remember... AGF). Additionally, If you see a copyvio on commons. Feel free to "Nominate For Deletion", it is fast (5 seconds, for a good 'net connection), easy (2 clicks), and ANYONE (Even IP's) can do it. So... You don't need deletion. On the other hand where is the fast and easy meathod for Commons admins to help keep YOUR images. Name one wiki based solution that takes less than 10 seconds. That is the point of this "tool". Allow Commons to do their jobs more efficiently and save your images. --ShakataGaNai ^{^_^} 05:48, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

    Well, there's one Commons admin whose December 2007 en wiki RFA failed with only 15% support. 187 users opposed the RFA. So that's a pretty affirmative statement of not being trusted. As for your suggested alternative of nominating the image for deletion, this flagrant copyvio took over a month for a Commons admin to resolve. This one took an unbelievable 4 months. On the other hand, a commons admin asking for help on WP:AN would probably get the information they need or a temporary restore in under 10 minutes. I don't think it's too much to ask those commons admins that we as a community do not trust with the tools to take that 10 minutes. --B 17:23, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

    I'm sorry, but you're opposing because, like most wikis, commons has a backlog which needs to be sorted? Heck, en has a category for backlogs. Yes, some stuff is copyvio and it can take a while to get to it if people don't tag it with {{copyvio}}. We're trying to work through the DR backlog, and we're making good progress. That is not a reason to oppose, in fact it's a reason to give us the power, since we won't waste time trying to explain what we want every time we will be able to look and then go on to the next image. And, for crying out loud, "commons admins that you don't trust" - say he has failed an RfA. Fine. You're not giving him the power to delete stuff or make major decisions about the wiki, you're giving him a power with which he could do precisely nothing to harm your interests. If he was truly not trusted, he would be banned. Why would a commons admin want to go and look through all the millions of images you have deleted to find the "attack images" - it would be easier to just create their own, which would lead to them losing admin powers on commons. Seriously, finding an "attack image" is easy - this is the internet. But consider this: there are two sorts of people liable to abuse power. 1) People who like abusing power. These people would never have become admins on commons. 2) Those who just snap one day for some reason. There's nothing you can do about that, and frankly they could be disruptive without looking through your deleted images. -mattbuck (Talk) 00:15, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

31.  Oppose per Ryan Postlethwaite and Effeietsanders. --Brownout^(msg) 06:28, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
32.  Oppose Per the convincing reasons above. seresin (¡?) 06:41, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
33. for now:  Oppose following Effeietsanders and others, although, with one exception, "my" wikis are not concerned. Commons admins have not been voted for, and as such cannot automatically be seen as trustworthy, on local projects. As soon as the privacy issue is solved, I favour the proposal. Viewing deleted images and their description pages should be a time saver, and safe enough, when local admins can hide problematic ones. --Purodha Blissenbach 10:11, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
34.  Oppose Given the very real wikistalking and privacy issues already addressed. Online harassment is not to be taken lightly and once someone's privacy is compromised it's not so easily reversed. Many good admins and editors have retired rather than deal with ongoing harassment. Until we have a higher standard to ensure compromising material is kept under wraps it will need to be guarded by those entrusted with that task. If some piece of information is needed en.wiki seems to have some very active admin boards so assistance is always at hand. Benjiboi 13:48, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

    We're not talking about enwiki, but rather about all wikis. Please take a larger view of this issue and rethink your conclusion.  — Mike.lifeguard | ^@en.wb 01:11, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

    Correct me if I’m wring, but it appears that you also think that commons admins will be able to see the deleted history of every page on whichever wiki. Read the introduction, it’ll only “grant commons admins the ability to view deleted image and image talk pages on all projects, no other namespaces or sysop rights will be granted by this proposal.” — H92 (t · c · no) 22:56, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

35.  Oppose --Svens Welt 14:20, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Neutral

• I'm sitting on the fence right now. I agree that there is a large problem with images that have been brought to Commons from other wikis and I thank the users presenting this proposal for addressing it. The problem needs to be discussed to see if a good solution can be found. This proposal certainly has the potential to help speed up the process and that is good.

• But I share some of the concerns stated by others in the discussion. Some admins on Commons have lost the trust of their local communities and been desysopped or resigned their tools "under a cloud". I can see potential problems with them having access to deleted material of any kind. This needs to be addressed in some manner, I think.

• Currently, a Commons admin or editor needs to collaborate with a local admin to sort out problems with images, or have admin access on the local wiki. In general, I think that is a good, not bad. Local admins need to understand image related issues so that they can help prevent future problems as well as fix past problems. My preference would be a collaborative project developed rather then to bypass the local community. Recruiting more local admins to have admin access on Commons seems to be a better longterm solution. FloNight 12:17, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

  Long term is already solved: Users don't get the right that allows local upload until they have been around long enough to know to upload their free images to commons. With only a few exceptions all the new commons-eligible image upload traffic is already going straight to commons. The issue of significance is the hundreds of thousands of old images transfered from other wikis with incomplete or misleading information. Coordinating one offs for each of image for routine checking is obnoxious in the extreme since it either requires two people to do one person's work at half or a quarter the speed, or the work to be limited to the much smaller pool of people who are admins on both projects (and whos time is already split). I can't say that it's an impossible situation, since we've survived it for a number of years but as we dig deeper into the backlogs it becomes a more and more material issue and it's already clear that it's hindering work. Thanks for your thoughts. --Gmaxwell 14:42, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

  That's not true. If a media file has insufficient publicly accessible permission to be included on commons, the image has insufficient permission to be included on commons. The creator of a file doesn't lose his/her copyright, just because a member of a very small group of people says/writes (s)he thinks it is OK to copy it. That fact doesn't change if the member of the very, very small group states that (s)he saw something on a page which is only viewable by said very small group of people and another similarly small group of people. Erik Warmelink 21:01, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

1. Neutral I would prefer the long term solution to recruit more people who become admins in both Commons and another project, like me. This proposal does not realistically "open up every single project" IMO. There will be many cases where I would have to contact a local admin anyway to translate the delete image description page into my native language, the web site linked as the image source, etc. Zzyzx11 17:10, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

   For some languages, true, but for the ones which are most used - french, german, spanish, portuguese etc; passable internet translation services exist. -mattbuck (Talk) 01:06, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Comment

Gregory, can you please expand on the potential to oversight images that you said is already built in to the mediawiki code, please? -- Avi 03:34, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

• Bitfields for rev deleted. --Gmaxwell 03:43, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
  • Note that although rev_deleted is not yet enabled on Wikimedia, it is already for a large part in the core MediaWiki software. So it should not take too long until oversighting images is possible :) -- Bryan (talk|commons) 09:20, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

I just noticed it = not known on the projects I'm active. How can it be a global vote without global promotion? I am skeptical its validity. --Aphaia 03:50, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

• I dropped a notice on w:WP:AN and the enwiki pump, but I think something this basic should be given the wikibanner treatment, similar to the global sysop discussion and the board vote. -- Avi 03:53, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
• Aphaia, it's only been open for a few hours. It's been advertised here and on foundation-l, commons users were asked to solicit comments from their hope projects, and many have been, but people are still waking up. --Gmaxwell 04:13, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
• I know that it was also posted on nl.wp and de.wp. And like GM said - it just started - you have 2 weeks to "notice it". --ShakataGaNai ^{^_^} 04:22, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
  • And GM also posted a note on WikiEN-l too, so it has had decent exposure, although I'd still like the banner treatment, if possible. -- Avi 04:23, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
• I've left a note on the English Wikisource's Scriptorium (as we were asked to advertise at our "home projects"). giggy _(:O) 07:05, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
  • Posted at no:wikipedia:Tinget Finn Rindahl 10:51, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
• This permission would be nice on a per-user, per-project base. I am unlikely to become an en admin in the recent future, but I need this permission and I think I could get enough pros on en for limited rights. Nevertheless, there are some commons admins which should never see some of the deleted files at german wikipedia. Code·is·poetry 10:00, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
  • Why? What is in german wikipedia? Is that what the librarians are hiding? -mattbuck (Talk) 10:35, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
• Herbythyme, above, answering to somebody: Let's not get into "who community is nicest" please. Commons is a strong community & well watched by some. Well, this discussion here (and the oppose voices) is not on better or worse community, but on the experience with communities as a whole. My experience is that the commons community is not different from other ones. Therefore I say NO just like I would say No if all admins from en.wiki or all admins from nl.wiki or other ones should get the rights of sysops (thou limited) on my project. It is not true that commons admins are controlled more than admins on other projects. I will support the idea, sure, but not in this way. -jkb- (cs.source) 12:12, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
  • "I will support the idea, sure, but not in this way." - Without trying to contest your vote, if you say your experience is the same with all communities, in what way do you think you could support the idea? giggy _(:O) 11:24, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
    • just as I stated above and in talks: at least opt-out must be granted, and these right are not avaiable generally for some hundreds of admins, but for a much smaller group that is beeng trusted by others, -jkb- (cs.source) 11:44, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
  • It is not your project. For someone who has indefinitely banned me from cs.wikisource, you should not even comment about "abuse of adminship" on other wikis. Look in a mirror for a change. -- Cat ^chi? 11:23, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
    • please stop tis harassing again. Or did you forget this RfC??? Or should I give more links on more domains??? -jkb- (cs.source) 11:44, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
• Comment How would this be granted? It should be automated so we do not nag stewards all the time. -- Cat ^chi? 11:09, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

  As for oppose votes, I cannot even think of why seeing deleted images would cause problems. I do not see what "abuse of power" is there in question. Sensitive stuff (such as personal info) must NOT just be deleted, they must be oversighted out. Abuse of power is a risk but not a valid concern. Commons is a well regulated wiki, no "abuse" of adminship would go unnoticed. Commons has a very low tolerance for such nonsense, much less than any wiki I know. -- Cat ^chi? 11:09, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

How to create new section/topic in Wikipedia

Greetings,

I would like to begin the process of creating a new section/topic for ThwartPoker.

ThwartPoker is a new *patented* class of card games that follow the rules of poker, but completely eliminates the random aspects of normal poker. Because the random elements have been eliminated, ThwartPoker is legal to play for money and prizes as it is not properly classified as a gambling game.

ThwartPoker Inc. is a developer, publisher, and distributor of interactive strategy card games. The company made gaming history in 2004 when it introduced the next evolution of traditional poker, made possible by patented software that replaces the random aspects of poker with skill and strategy. Because ThwartPoker games are 100% skill-based, they do not violate U.S. federal gaming law. A mobile version of ThwartPoker titled “Hold’em Poker+ For PrizesTM is available on Verizon Wireless, T-Mobile, and AT&T - made possible through a licensing deal with Twistbox Entertainment. The company is headquartered in San Francisco, California.

Disclaimer. I am the Co-Founder of ThwartPoker.

Its spam. I hope they do not try and create an en wp. --Herby ^{talk thyme} 11:54, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Please try creating the page at this website. Thank you. Majorly ^talk 00:44, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

As you are from the company you should probably not create an article on it (See [[w:WP:COI|the relevant Wikipedia policy)> Also note that futute questions like tis should be asked at the help desk, not here. Anonymous101 09:25, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Global rights policy proposal for discussion

Please see Global rights for a proposed policy governing the establishment, implementation and use of new global user rights. Avruch 01:53, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Puntori as a bureaucrat

Puntori has been voted by the sq.wikt community to be a bureaucrat: here. Could anybody give him the bureaucrat status, please? Thanks. I know this place may not be the best for this request but I could not find the proper page to do it and I do not have much time. --Piolinfax ^(@es.wikt) 17:22, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Go request it here OhanaUnited^{Talk page} 21:44, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Nope, already done 2 weeks ago--Nick1915 - ^{all you want} 09:35, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

OhanaUnited, Nick1915, thanks :) There was no change in Wiktionary:Administrues when I looked so I wrongly assumed Puntori was not a bureaucrat yet. My mistake. I should have checked his status first. Regards. - 0 º 13:02, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

HELP NEEDED

As you probably noticed CommonsDelinker removed a lot of images that were deleted and SHOULD NOT of been deleted by me. If you have a toolserver account, could you please run a query on all of the wikis and get the links to undo any changes made by CommonsDelinker on June 27th with "Monobi" and "OTRS" in the edit summary? Also, could the admins on their wikis check and make sure that the edits are rolled back? Thank you, Monobi (talk) 04:15, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

I'll poke at it. OverlordQ 04:50, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedias: de, es, en, fr, it

Wiktionaries: none

Wikinews: none

Wikiversities: none

Wikibooks: none

I've checked all of the bot's edits on the toolserver's cross-wiki contribs page and have undone all of the ones with "Monobi" and "OTRS" in the edit summary from the past week. Nakon 05:27, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Hrm, some got missed, like on the polish wikipedia. Monobi (talk) 05:29, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

All edits on the 27th

Same, but ignoring lang = (it|fr|en|es|de). OverlordQ 05:53, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

CD reverted on pl-wiki. Beau (talk) 06:24, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Reverted on nlwiki using Special:Contributions. Didn't know you already had a list of diffs. --Erwin(85) 08:01, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Done: Disputed edits on de.wiki have been reverted this morning. →Christian.И 09:53, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Done, Nakon has done all on ar.wikipedia!--OsamaK 16:04, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

http://toolserver.org/~str4nd/monobi.tmp/ — ”Monobi” and ”OTRS” by CommonsDelinker from s2 (20 June – 29 June). — str4nd ☕ 17:01, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Done in Russian Wikipedia, thanks User:Beau. Sister projects were not affected. — Kalan ? 11:00, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Done in dewikipedia, according to [3] --Church of emacs 11:33, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Sysop out of control

What can be done against a sysop on the rampage, if the local Arbcom is disfunctional as on nl:Wikipedia? Regards, Guido den Broeder 07:44, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

The problem needs to be addressed by the local community. Discuss the local situation there and determine what the community would like done, then implement that decision as a community. Meta can't make the decisions of a community for them, only assist in implementing those decisions when needed. Kylu 07:50, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Tried to, the sysop blocked me, as well as my IP address, and took away my email privileges. Guido den Broeder 08:01, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

The Dutch ArbCom assigned Oscar as Guido's mentor as the result of a request for arbitration. Guido has made clear that he doesn't agree with this. One of his friends even organized a poll about stopping the mentorship, which didn't succeed and received a lot of resistance. In short, the mentorship has been assigned by the Dutch ArbCom and has sort of been confirmed by nlwiki's community. As his mentor Oscar has blocked Guido. Apparently the Dutch community agrees, so please don't come to Meta complaining about this. Oscar is not a sysop on rampage! Please don't misuse Meta for what appears to be your own rampage. The Dutch Wikipedia should deal with it and if you don't like how they do it, please don't come complaining here. --Erwin(85) 08:47, 3 July 2008 (UTC) (nlwiki and meta user)

The above information is entirely incorrect. Guido den Broeder 09:22, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

What I am talking about here is a sysop who:

• Deals out long, random blocks to numerous users without any ground whatsoever
• Vandalizes user space, including the deletion of his own talk page, thereby hiding information relevant to current Arbcom cases against him
• Has caused the Arbcom to withdraw
• Refuses all discussion
• Makes slenderous remarks and constantly insults other users
• Falsely accuses various users of sockpuppetry
• Insults users on the IRC channel and then blocks them from it (today the Wikizine connection was even closed altogether, not sure if he caused this but the effect is obvious) connection is working again today Guido den Broeder 14:51, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
• Thinks he can unilaterally decide to be someones mentor using this only to ensure that a block cannot be undone by admins. These blocks were undone when the nl:Arbcom was still functioning, but he keeps adding new ones
• Thinks he can unilaterally decide that no user on nl:Wikipedia is allowed to refer to a user's scientific publications (even though the same publications can be found on e.g. en:Wikipedia)
• Etc.
• Has been under heavy criticism from the community for months Guido den Broeder 09:36, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

The fact that a couple of admins on nl:Wikipedia cheer him on, and delete Arbcom cases, unblock requests etc. within seconds, is only grounds for more concern. Guido den Broeder 09:41, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

So what you're saying is basically that Oscar is the downfall of the Dutch Wikipedia. How is that, in the above words, not a personal attack? Please don't give me another reason to block you here. I don't think any of us would benefit from that. Besides that it is still a case for the Dutch Wikipedia. A Dutch user requested arbitration which he says is on your behalf. That's the last resort. Meta can't overrule that. --Erwin(85) 09:51, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

I am saying what I am saying, nothing more. Don't accuse me of a PA that I did not make. No, Oscar doesn't cause the downfall of nl:Wikipedia. That is done by those who let him get away with all of the above.

Please note that User:Erwin has removed my nl:Arbcom request and protected the nl:Arbcom talk page. Guido den Broeder 09:56, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

True, as a sysop it's my job to stop edit wars. You forgot to mention though that I informed this user that you should mail your request directly to the committee, edit. Like it should be done according to w:nl:Wikipedia:Arbitragecommissie/Zaken itself. However, I'll stop commenting now as I myself appear to be giving you a stage for what still seems to me as a rampage. --Erwin(85) 10:15, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Please don't try and distort history. The email was sent directly to the Arbcom. Because the Arbcom is currently disfunctional, I then asked others to put the case on the page, which is perfectly allowed. Guido den Broeder 10:32, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Erwin's actions on the nl:Arbcom pages have been undone. That is something, at least. Guido den Broeder 11:16, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Would you please stop all these lies. This is not productive for wikipedia and its related projects. Annabel 12:07, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

yawn aleichem 15:27, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

There may be grounds for the description "the local Arbcom is disfunctional as on nl:Wikipedia", but this case is a happy exception. The ArbCom roused itself to deal with the matter: it slapped an indefinite block on Guido den Broeder (for threatening to sue, a major infraction; see here). - Brya 16:58, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

I have not threatened to sue anyone, thanks. The hibernating Arbcom has made a grave error here. Guido den Broeder 19:39, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Top 10 Wikipedias (poll)

This is a poll about a rearrangement of the top ten wikipedias that are displayed on the main wikipedia portal (http://www.wikipedia.org). The poll will start on July 6, 2008 at 00:00 UTC and will end on July 31, 2008 at 23:59 UTC

Introduction

This topic has been wandering around for a long time on Talk:www.wikipedia.org template, coming to surface in many occasions, especially on the times around the milestone of 100.000 articles of the Chinese and Russian Wikipedias.

After a tentative wrap-up of all the proposals made in that page throughout the months in Talk:www.wikipedia.org template#rethinking the top ten, a discussion was launched in Top Ten Wikipedias, to which all the major Wikipedias have been invited to in their village pump.

A lot of good opinions have been collected and discussed, and a vote proposal has been made and received some feedback. That proposal is now being implemented (see link below).

Vote requirements

Any Wikimedian may vote, provided that they (1) Have a user account created at least 3 months before the start of the vote (i.e. 5 March 2008) on any Wikipedia; (2) Have a user account on Meta, with links in the user page to the other project(s) userpage(s) and (4) Have a minimum 500 edits (across all projects) total.

How to vote

Voters should choose only one of each option for the questions below. If an option has sub-options, the parent option shouldn't be voted on, but rather one of the sub-options. The most voted option of a question will be chosenThe sub-options will count individually against the top-level options.

To vote, please head to the poll.