Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Δ: Difference between revisions
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-->This a '''centralized page''' of discussion pertaining to '''[[User:Δ]]''', formerly '''[[User:Betacommand]]''', and his bots '''[[User:BetacommandBot]]''' and '''[[User:Δbot]]''' ([[User:Deltabot]]). These discussions were previously on the [[Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents|Administrators' Incidents Noticeboard]], but |
-->This is a '''centralized page''' of discussion pertaining to '''[[User:Δ]]''', formerly '''[[User:Betacommand]]''', and his bots '''[[User:BetacommandBot]]''' and '''[[User:Δbot]]''' ([[User:Deltabot]]). These discussions were previously on the [[Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents|Administrators' Incidents Noticeboard]], but have been moved here in the interests of space and navigation. This page is for participating and discussing in a [[WP:CIVIL|civil manner]] all matters that relate to this user and his bots. |
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Please do '''not''' use this page to [[Wikipedia:No Personal Attacks|attack]] these users instead of participating in civil discussion. <br> |
Please do '''not''' use this page to [[Wikipedia:No Personal Attacks|attack]] these users instead of participating in civil discussion. <br> |
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<span style="color:red;">'''This is not a complaints department'''</span>. If you have a private matter that concerns this user, please discuss it with Δ on his [[User talk:Δ|talk page]]. |
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== Betacommand reblocked for not observing the conditions of his unban, review requested == |
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! style="background-color: #f2dfce;" | Betacommand has been unblocked and at the present time will not be using Twinkle until it is otherwise stated by ArbCom that it does not fall under the conditions of his unban. –<font face="verdana" color="black">[[user:xeno|'''xeno''']]</font>[[user talk:xeno|<font color="black" face="verdana"><sup>talk</sup></font>]] 14:12, 13 July 2009 (UTC) |
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| style="text-align:center; font-style:italic;" | The following is an archived debate. <span style="color:red;">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> |
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Following a discussion at [[Wikipedia talk:Arbitration Committee/Noticeboard#Provisional suspension of community ban: Betacommand]], I have indefinitely re-blocked {{userlinks|Betacommand}} for failing to observe the [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Arbitration_Committee/Noticeboard&oldid=301589314#Provisional_suspension_of_community_ban:_Betacommand conditions of his unban] (specifically, the prohibition from "running automated scripts of whatever nature"). Betacommand violated that prohibition by making [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ihor_Podolchak&diff=prev&oldid=301722642 this edit] using [[WP:TWINKLE]], an automated script. In my view, the community ban is automatically reinstated as a consequence of Betacommand violating the conditions of his unban. |
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Because blocks and unblocks regarding this user tend to be controversial, I am submitting this block for community review. Should community consensus disagree with my action or assessment, I do not object to an unblock. <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Sandstein|<font style="color:white;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Sandstein '''</font>]]</span></small> 10:00, 13 July 2009 (UTC) |
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:Ehm, we call this an automated script ? I thought this was a userscript ? In which each and every single action, requires active user-verification ? I don't know, I personally would not have expected that Twinkle would fall under the definition of automated script, and if it does, he cannot use wikEd either. Why did people choose such a vague description ? I propose new wording of his terms. "any scripts that make edits, be they automated or manually confirmed". —[[User:TheDJ|Th<span style="color: green">e</span>DJ]] ([[User talk:TheDJ|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/TheDJ|contribs]]) 10:22, 13 July 2009 (UTC) |
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::I believe the qualifier "automated" has no clear meaning here; at any rate, the words "of whatever nature" make it clear that the prohibition is intended to be construed broadly. Besides, Twinkle is automated in that it does not only do one particular thing, but may make multiple context-dependent edits to multiple page; it is clearly an example of Wikipedia [[automation]]. <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Sandstein|<font style="color:white;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Sandstein '''</font>]]</span></small> 10:28, 13 July 2009 (UTC) |
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*'''oppose''' - the interpretation is too broad here, IMHO. This is a semi-automatic tool, and not an automated script. If this is the only incident (or only incident of this type) of assisted editing Betacommand has performed since the imposition, I believe this block would be overkill. [[User:Ohconfucius|Ohconfucius]] ([[User talk:Ohconfucius|talk]]) 10:32, 13 July 2009 (UTC) |
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* Unblock, Twinkle isn't really an automated script. '''[[User talk:Garden|<font style="color:#9999CC;">weburiedoursecretsinthe</font><font style="color:#000099;">garden</font>]]''' 10:41, 13 July 2009 (UTC) |
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*I agree with Garden that TW isn't an automated script or tool. If the community or Committee determines that it is, then fine. But I wouldn't have considered using it a violation of the restrictions if I were under them, and I don't fault BC for not thinking so. If he is unblocked, he should be cautioned to refrain from using it until a decision is reached about whether TW is acceptable. ''÷[[user:seresin|seresin]]'' 10:45, 13 July 2009 (UTC) |
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* Don't endorse. If TW is automated, is rollback? How about undo? wikiEd? Interface modifiers that don't change the edit box? Modifiers that load an edit screen and put content in but ''don't'' click save? Ones that ''do'' click save? You need to push a big button to use TW once, and then one thing happens. If that isn't allowed, unblock and clarify that further use of TW (and other inappropriate user scripts) is not allowed. [[User:Ale_jrb|<font color="green">A</font><small><font color="green">le_Jrb</font>]]</small><sup>[[User_talk:Ale_jrb|<font color="blue">talk</font>]]</sup> 10:48, 13 July 2009 (UTC) |
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::Note that that restrictions say ''running automated scripts'' - I, personally, don't see TW as something that you 'run' - that implies to me that you leave it (or even sit there watching it) while it makes a whole heap of edits. [[User:Ale_jrb|<font color="green">A</font><small><font color="green">le_Jrb</font>]]</small><sup>[[User_talk:Ale_jrb|<font color="blue">talk</font>]]</sup> 10:52, 13 July 2009 (UTC) |
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:::The script in question is one that is "run": It selects all usages of an images, and removes them all. Without discretion. [[User talk:Amalthea|<span style="font-family:Verdana;font-variant:small-caps;color:#832">Amalthea</span>]] 11:15, 13 July 2009 (UTC) |
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::::That possibly comes from me never having unlinked an image in my life, nevermind using TW. Either way, as it made one edit, IMO the point still stands. [[User:Ale_jrb|<font color="green">A</font><small><font color="green">le_Jrb</font>]]</small><sup>[[User_talk:Ale_jrb|<font color="blue">talk</font>]]</sup> 11:22, 13 July 2009 (UTC) |
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*Unblock. I, too, agree with Garden, seresin and, Ale jrb. <font face="verdana" color="black">'''t'shaél'''</font><sup>[[user talk:T'Shael|<font color="red" face="verdana">'''chat'''</font>]]</sup> 10:49, 13 July 2009 (UTC) |
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*Agree with unblock. Twinkle is not automated in that it requires user interactions with the tool for every edit. I have no problem with a block if the community or Committee declare that, for the purposes of Betacommand's provisional unblock, it counts as an automated tool, but until that point I think the conditions are being construed far too broadly in this instance. [[User:Ironholds|Ironholds]] ([[User talk:Ironholds|talk]]) 10:50, 13 July 2009 (UTC) |
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*'''Endorse block''' – Twinkle ''is'' "an automated tool or script of any sort" – and if Betacommand was interested in staying an editor, after being ''incredibly'' lucky with umpteen last chances, then s/he wouldn't play with fire in this way. It's absurd. <font color="#FFB911">╟─[[User:TreasuryTag|Treasury]][[User talk:TreasuryTag|Tag]]►[[Special:Contributions/TreasuryTag|constabulary]]─╢</font> 10:54, 13 July 2009 (UTC) |
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*'''Don't endorse''', I don't fault BetaCommand for making this edit. As a tech person myself I woudn't call Twinkle automated. —[[User:TheDJ|Th<span style="color: green">e</span>DJ]] ([[User talk:TheDJ|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/TheDJ|contribs]]) 11:10, 13 July 2009 (UTC) |
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*The Twinkle "unlink" tool certainly *is* an automation that falls under he spirit of the unban, capable of mass-unlinking images and articles. Personally I don't think that removing all red linked images from stub templates, without discretion, is particularly wise either. He should avoid anything that gives the ''impression'' of running automated processes, and [{{fullurl:Special:Contributions/Betacommand|offset=20090712133700&limit=28}} four edits crammed into one or two ''seconds'', repeated every fourteen minutes, is not it].<br>So in effect, I <u>strongly agreey</u> that he was in violation of the unban conditions by using the mass-unlinking tool, and should not use scripts capable of doing mass-edits (Twinkle CSD, XFD, ARV, and rollback/warn should be OK). I could let it slide in this case since this particular instance was uncontroversial and affected only one article, and it is apparently disputed what is covered by that condition and what isn't. [[User talk:Amalthea|<span style="font-family:Verdana;font-variant:small-caps;color:#832">Amalthea</span>]] 11:15, 13 July 2009 (UTC) |
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*He was prohibited from running automated scripts of whatever nature. He knew the risks; '''endorse''' block. [[User:Stifle|Stifle]] ([[User talk:Stifle/wizard|talk]]) 11:31, 13 July 2009 (UTC) |
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*'''Endorse block'''; he violated his terms, so we either enforce them or remove them. The latter is not an option. [[User:Deacon of Pndapetzim|Deacon of Pndapetzim]] (<small>[[User talk:Deacon of Pndapetzim|Talk]]</small>) 12:57, 13 July 2009 (UTC) |
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*'''Endorse block''', do we really need to codify that he has to make every edit completely manually? Thats certainly what the restrictions say, just in not so many words. [[User:Viridae|Viridae]][[User talk:Viridae|<small><sup>Talk</sup></small>]] 13:07, 13 July 2009 (UTC) |
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*'''Unblock''': I don't think TW should fall under the restrictions. [[User:Jennavecia|<span style="font-family:Lucida Handwriting;color:#9B30FF">'''ل'''enna</span>]][[User talk:Jennavecia|<span style="font-family:Lucida Handwriting;color:#63B8FF">vecia</span>]] 14:09, 13 July 2009 (UTC) |
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*'''Endorse block''' He was clearly warned. [[User:Jtrainor|Jtrainor]] ([[User talk:Jtrainor|talk]]) 01:55, 14 July 2009 (UTC) |
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===Looking for consensus=== |
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It doesn't look like we are going to get agreement on the block.What about unblocking him this time with a clarification that twinkle and other similar scripts are not to be used ever. Would that be acceptable? [[User:Theresa knott|Theresa Knott]] | [[User talk:Theresa knott|token threats]] 11:35, 13 July 2009 (UTC) |
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:I think that unblocking him, and agreeing that Twinkle is not allowed, are not mutually exclusive ideas. I think he may have made a [[WP:AGF|good faith]] assumption that Twinkle would be allowed. Personally, I feel that the text of the decision cited above makes it clear that the '''only editing''' Betacommand is allowed to do is the kind done with a commercially availible web browser, whereby he pushes all of the keys on his keyboard himself, and clicks the "Save Page" button with his own mouse, and that he must do so without the aid of ANY software tools whatsoever, including Twinkle, Huggle, AWB, or any self-written tools, bots, scripts, or anything else. I think that the use of Twinkle so quickly after the unblock was poor judgement on Betacommand's part (or [[WP:GAME]]), since he should have known that his edits would be scrutinized, and it would be likely that someone would interpret the use of Twinkle in exactly the way it has been here. But, this single instance of poor judgement only shows how desperately we need to be clear in these issues. I think we can unblock him, but he needs to take care in seriously using NO aid beyond the standard stuff that a newb would do to edit Wikipedia. --[[User:Jayron32|Jayron32]].[[User talk:Jayron32|<small>talk</small>]].[[WP:NODRAMA|<small>say '''no''' to drama</small>]] 12:19, 13 July 2009 (UTC) |
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:(ec) I suggest changing to: "any scripts, for any purpose." at least that is clear. then he can blank his monobook.js and he knows where he stands. It's stupidly strict, but at least it's a clear definition. —[[User:TheDJ|Th<span style="color: green">e</span>DJ]] ([[User talk:TheDJ|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/TheDJ|contribs]]) 12:21, 13 July 2009 (UTC) |
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::(ec, re to Jayron) They are not mutually exclusive, but make no sense. I'd suggest unblock and clarification which tools are ok an which are not. As far as I understand, problems came from running proper bots, not from using user interface enhancements like Twinkle. And why "commercially available"? Is Firefox "commercially available"? Is [[lynx (web browser)]] (which, BTW, does not support a mouse)? Oh yes, '''oppose''' the block if we are still counting. --[[User:Stephan Schulz|Stephan Schulz]] ([[User talk:Stephan Schulz|talk]]) 12:26, 13 July 2009 (UTC) |
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::Well, it is strict, but given the background of the Betacommand case, not to be unexpected here. Betacommand has a long history of attempting to [[WP:GAME]] prior sanctions, especially when it comes to running automated scripts. Its a short leap from running Twinkle to writing a script oneself to do the same stuff that Twinkle does to modifying that script to do Twinkle-type edits but doing them better, etc. etc. The problem in this case is that there have been MANY prior sanctions which were less restrictive, and they never worked in curbing the sorts of behavior they were intended to curb. --[[User:Jayron32|Jayron32]].[[User talk:Jayron32|<small>talk</small>]].[[WP:NODRAMA|<small>say '''no''' to drama</small>]] 12:27, 13 July 2009 (UTC) |
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*I agree with the above. Unblock, and clarify. [[User:Ale_jrb|<font color="green">A</font><small><font color="green">le_Jrb</font>]]</small><sup>[[User_talk:Ale_jrb|<font color="blue">talk</font>]]</sup> 12:23, 13 July 2009 (UTC) |
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* Unblock, I sure wouldn't have thought Twinkle would have been a violation. I would have thought ''no bots'', if you think ''no scripts at all'' then clarification is in order. One puppy's opinion. [[User:KillerChihuahua|KillerChihuahua]]<small><sup>[[User talk:KillerChihuahua|?!?]]</sup>[[User:Heimstern/Ignoring incivility|Advice]]</small> 12:38, 13 July 2009 (UTC) |
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* I would rather keep the block pending clarification, since it makes no sense to unblock for a period in which BC may or may not edit - including running the risk of editing with Twinkle while awaiting ArbCom's decision, providing a whole new world of drama - and then reblocking because it is concluded he has violated the terms. If ArbCom confirm they did not include Twinkle, etc., then the block can be lifted, but it has in the meantime served notice to BC that if in doubt they should get confirmation before making any edit that might be construed as problematic (unless they are happy to be blocked each time). [[User:LessHeard vanU|LessHeard vanU]] ([[User talk:LessHeard vanU|talk]]) 12:46, 13 July 2009 (UTC) |
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* Yes, Theresa's suggestion makes sense. Whether or not individual once-off uses of Twinkle were originally meant to be within the scope of the restriction, I wouldn't hold it against him if he thought in good faith they weren't. Tell him they are, for clarification, and unblock. Far too much drama. [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 13:03, 13 July 2009 (UTC) |
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*Support this suggestion. Although s/he should be '''strictly warned''', they should know better then to push it (which is exactly what using ''any'' automated editing tool is doing). But then they're not completely over the line (Twinkle could be seen as an exception), so leaving an indef block seems wrong. This seems to be the best approach - [[User:Kingpin13|Kingpin]]<sup>[[Special:Contributions/Kingpin13|13]]</sup> ([[User talk:Kingpin13|talk]]) 13:11, 13 July 2009 (UTC) |
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* Largely per Future Perfect, and briefly looking at the terms of the unban, I don't think it's clear whether a ''single edit'' aided by Twinkle would be banned under these restrictions -- the phrase "prohibited from running... automated scripts" is a touch vague. What's the distinction between a "script" and an "automated script"? If the intended meaning there was "no scripts whatsoever", I'm quite sure that's what they would have said, and I'm quite sure Betacommand's monobook.js would have been deleted and salted. If the language needs clarification, so be it. The [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Roger_Davies&diff=301823321&oldid=301818468 post] from Roger Davies might clear things up, but it was made hours after the fact. Perhaps I'm misguided, here, but I think the question bears asking: was there anything objectionable about this edit, other than its summary? He was removing a deleted image. Absent some bad faith shenanigans, doing so unquestionably improves the article. Obviously Betacommand's use of Twinkle here was controversial, and users are right to be concerned by any pushing of the envelope that's been established; I understand and sympathize with that, and I do think he should have considered that, but I cannot in good conscience support the indefinite ban of a user based on one helpful edit. – <span style="font-family: Garamond">[[User:Luna Santin|<font color="#1E90FF">'''Luna Santin'''</font>]] ([[User talk:Luna Santin|talk]])</span> 13:30, 13 July 2009 (UTC) |
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=== Asking ArbCom what they think === |
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Since they were the ones that unbanned him, I have sent an e-mail to ArbCom, informing them of this thread and asking them to make a comment on the situation. I believe it would be wise to continue the above discussion, but take no action until ArbCom has commented. He's been blocked and banned for a long time, I believe he can wait a day or two for ArbCom to get a statement together. --[[User:Deskana|Deskana]], [[User talk:Deskana|Champion of the Frozen Wastes]] 12:25, 13 July 2009 (UTC) |
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: Agreed. '''[[User talk:Garden|<font style="color:#9999CC;">weburiedoursecretsinthe</font><font style="color:#000099;">garden</font>]]''' 12:37, 13 July 2009 (UTC) |
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:A member of ArbCom has already weighed in on this aspect, though. From Roger Davies, "[[User talk:Roger Davies#Lifting of community ban on Betacommand|I remind you that you are prohibited from using Twinkle, which you may now wish to deconfigure]]", wouldn't that be sufficient? [[User:Tarc|Tarc]] ([[User talk:Tarc|talk]]) 12:51, 13 July 2009 (UTC) |
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::I would say so. [[User:Theresa knott|Theresa Knott]] | [[User talk:Theresa knott|token threats]] 13:35, 13 July 2009 (UTC) |
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:::Clarification would be useful. Roger's comment is helpful, but was made well after Beta's edit; if Roger had thought the edit warranted an immediate reban, he could well have done that instead of issuing a warning, no? – <span style="font-family: Garamond">[[User:Luna Santin|<font color="#1E90FF">'''Luna Santin'''</font>]] ([[User talk:Luna Santin|talk]])</span> 13:41, 13 July 2009 (UTC) |
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::::It seems that the position from Arbcom is ambiguous. Please refer to [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents&diff=prev&oldid=301860652 my post below]. [[User:Ohconfucius|Ohconfucius]] ([[User talk:Ohconfucius|talk]]) 14:12, 13 July 2009 (UTC) |
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=== Use of Twinkle === |
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I think there's an important point about Twinkle to be made. The tasks you can use it for vary widely. If Betacommand was using it to make large numbers of automatic/semi automatic edits (such as mass reversions, or mass linking/delinking) then he would be breaking the restrictions. However, using Twinkle to make his life easier to make one unique edit doesn't come close to breaking the restrictions in my honest opinion. The edit which BC made was one that required human thought, he just used the Twinkle interface to make it easier for him. '''[[User:Ryan Postlethwaite|<font color="green">Ryan</font> <font color="purple">Postlethwaite</font>]]<sup>See [[Special:Contributions/Ryan Postlethwaite|the mess I've created]] or [[User talk:Ryan Postlethwaite|let's have banter]]</sup>''' 12:55, 13 July 2009 (UTC) |
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:as noted above, he is banned from using a script of any kind to edit, it quite clearly includes twinkle. As also noted above (though it may have happened since you wrote this) he was warned by an arb for using twinkle to. Beta games the conditions enough without your (or anyone elses) help. [[User:Viridae|Viridae]][[User talk:Viridae|<small><sup>Talk</sup></small>]] 13:05, 13 July 2009 (UTC) |
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:: And that arbitrator's polite, calm warning came ''after'' that single edit, and with that the matter could have been over. That's the way we do things here, you know. [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 13:09, 13 July 2009 (UTC) |
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:::You dont thinkt he unban conditions were warning enough? [[User:Viridae|Viridae]][[User talk:Viridae|<small><sup>Talk</sup></small>]] 13:12, 13 July 2009 (UTC) |
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:::: You don't think the clarification here [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ARoger_Davies&diff=301823321&oldid=301818468] was enough? That it required, 2 hours later, a block by an arguably involved admin? [[User_talk:Gimmetrow|''Gimmetrow'']] 13:19, 13 July 2009 (UTC) |
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::That's not quite the wording Viridae; Betacommand is "prohibited from operating bots or running automated scripts of whatever nature" - Now, as far as I'm concerned, the way BC was using Twinkle was not against the restriction. That Said, Theresa makes and important point below. Perhaps making it abundantly clear that Twinkle use of any kind is banned - I can't fault Betacommand for the way he used it yesterday, I think it was rather innocent and certainly without malice. '''[[User:Ryan Postlethwaite|<font color="green">Ryan</font> <font color="purple">Postlethwaite</font>]]<sup>See [[Special:Contributions/Ryan Postlethwaite|the mess I've created]] or [[User talk:Ryan Postlethwaite|let's have banter]]</sup>''' 13:13, 13 July 2009 (UTC) |
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:::No malice is not the point, most of betas problems came largely without malice, but they certainly came with a buttload of prob;llems, a flat out refusal to see anyone elses POV and a very large helping of wikilawyering. [[User:Viridae|Viridae]][[User talk:Viridae|<small><sup>Talk</sup></small>]] 13:16, 13 July 2009 (UTC) |
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:Yes Twinkle is a powerful tool, which is why some people think using it is abuse of the unblock conditions. And yes this particular instance is fairly innocent, which is why some people think it isn't abuse. Of course if you wanted to test the waters the obvious thing to is to use the tool innocently at first in the hope of establishing that the tool is allowed. This is why, in a case like this, it is important to be very clear. No use of Twinkle whatsoever is workable and very easy to understand. [[User:Theresa knott|Theresa Knott]] | [[User talk:Theresa knott|token threats]] 13:08, 13 July 2009 (UTC) |
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::{{ec}}I don't think that using Twinkle to, say, perform an xfD, should be considered a violation of his unblock. It's a series of edits that must be carried out to perform an action on one article, with a courtesy notification to the creator. However, using it to remove all references to a file would pretty clearly cross the line.--[[User:SarekOfVulcan|SarekOfVulcan]] ([[User talk:SarekOfVulcan|talk]]) 13:20, 13 July 2009 (UTC) |
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:::The edit was innocent, and (strongly) arguably a 'manual' edit anyway, seeing as the decision process is involved. Nevertheless, it is not permitted, and this should be made clear. It has been. Beta has agreed to the fact that TW is not allowed, and should realise that if it happens again now it's clear, there will be no getting out of it at all. Support unblock. [[User:Ale_jrb|<font color="green">A</font><small><font color="green">le_Jrb</font>]]</small><sup>[[User_talk:Ale_jrb|<font color="blue">talk</font>]]</sup> 13:28, 13 July 2009 (UTC) |
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*I certainly agree with Ryan in that the actual use of Twinkle is of key relevance here. His edit was script-oriented, but only in that it allowed for convenient execution. It was not an automated jetstream of contributions. To block here seems to me to be reading too much into the sanction and an unnecessary symbolism. I don't think any action should have been taken before consultation with ArbCom. Still, reversing things now would only escalate the situation, and I expect ArbCom will speak soon on the matter of whether use of Twinkle is acceptable in any form. —<strong>[[User:Anonymous Dissident|<span style="font-family:Script MT Bold;color:DarkRed">Anonymous Dissident</span>]]</strong>[[User_talk:Anonymous Dissident|<sup><span style="font-family:Verdana;color:Gray">Talk</span></sup>]] 13:33, 13 July 2009 (UTC) |
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** Well put. – <span style="font-family: Garamond">[[User:Luna Santin|<font color="#1E90FF">'''Luna Santin'''</font>]] ([[User talk:Luna Santin|talk]])</span> 13:47, 13 July 2009 (UTC) |
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*Blocking for ''a'' TW edit is just ridiculous. As Sarek touched on, it would be ridiculous to fault Beta for using TW to AFD an article. Just ridiculous. Using this userscript to make individual edits is not something Beta should have ever or should ever be blocked for. [[User:Jennavecia|<span style="font-family:Lucida Handwriting;color:#9B30FF">'''ل'''enna</span>]][[User talk:Jennavecia|<span style="font-family:Lucida Handwriting;color:#63B8FF">vecia</span>]] 14:13, 13 July 2009 (UTC) |
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*I've managed to rack up 34k+ edits without Twinkle, Huggle, AWB, or any other automated system. It is possible to be a contributor to the project and ''not'' use automated (or semi-automated) tools, and that's a fact that I think Beta would do well to come in contact with. That said, I think the occasional Twinkle-assisted edit isn't the problem, and he shouldn't be penalized for shaving time off of ''individual'' processes. [[User:EVula|EVula]] <span style="color: #999;">// [[User talk:EVula|talk]] // [[User:EVula/admin|<span style="color: #366;">☯</span>]] //</span> 00:35, 14 July 2009 (UTC) |
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===Betacommand speaks=== |
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Betacommand has [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Betacommand&curid=9514859&diff=301854114&oldid=301833799 spoken]. He has agreed not to use Twinkle again. Can we now put this to bed please and unblock him? He made an innocent mistake and has vowed not to do it again. '''[[User:Ryan Postlethwaite|<font color="green">Ryan</font> <font color="purple">Postlethwaite</font>]]<sup>See [[Special:Contributions/Ryan Postlethwaite|the mess I've created]] or [[User talk:Ryan Postlethwaite|let's have banter]]</sup>''' 13:17, 13 July 2009 (UTC) |
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:I have taken the liberty of unblocking based on that, it appears to be genuine. [[User:Viridae|Viridae]][[User talk:Viridae|<small><sup>Talk</sup></small>]] 13:25, 13 July 2009 (UTC) |
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:: Don't agree with unblock. Obviously he's gonna say something like that, but Beta's record of reoffending is so extensive there's no reason to take him at his word on this. [[User:Deacon of Pndapetzim|Deacon of Pndapetzim]] (<small>[[User talk:Deacon of Pndapetzim|Talk]]</small>) 13:28, 13 July 2009 (UTC) |
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::: Support unblock. It's now clear that TW is not allowed. If it's used again, there'll be no getting out of it. The end, IMO. [[User:Ale_jrb|<font color="green">A</font><small><font color="green">le_Jrb</font>]]</small><sup>[[User_talk:Ale_jrb|<font color="blue">talk</font>]]</sup> 13:30, 13 July 2009 (UTC) |
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*I had talked to Beta last night answering some questions he had about what he could and could not do, Twinkle was not brought up and I agree with the sentiments expressed here, so hopefully this can continue to move forward. '''[[User:MBisanz|<span style='color: #FFFF00;background-color: #0000FF;'>MBisanz</span>]]''' <sup>[[User talk:MBisanz|<span style='color: #FFA500;'>talk</span>]]</sup> 13:34, 13 July 2009 (UTC) |
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'''I intend to unblock''', add a clear and strongly worded warning, and delete and salt his monobook.js shortly. I'll leave it a little while to give people a chance to comment but I think we have reasonable agreement now that unblocking is acceptable to most people. [[User:Theresa knott|Theresa Knott]] | [[User talk:Theresa knott|token threats]] 13:38, 13 July 2009 (UTC) |
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:Please don't delete the monobook, Ive gone ahead and removed twinkle already there are a lot of UI changes that I have in there besides TW. [[User talk:Betacommand|β<sup><sub>command</sub></sup>]] 13:41, 13 July 2009 (UTC) |
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:{{ec}} Support unblock (BTW Theresa, Betacommand is already unblocked :D). Not sure about salting the monobook though; what need? And it's not only editing scripts that can be used in there. So oppose salting. Although I suggest he/an admin removes all editing scripts. - [[User:Kingpin13|Kingpin]]<sup>[[Special:Contributions/Kingpin13|13]]</sup> ([[User talk:Kingpin13|talk]]) 13:42, 13 July 2009 (UTC) |
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::Fair enough. I'll leave the monobook alone. Welcome back Beta. [[User:Theresa knott|Theresa Knott]] | [[User talk:Theresa knott|token threats]] 13:45, 13 July 2009 (UTC) |
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:::A compromise might be best, leaving it in tact ''but'': removing all editing scripts, protecting it, and thus ensuring a request is made before any new scripts are added. I don't advocate either way. [[User:Ale_jrb|<font color="green">A</font><small><font color="green">le_Jrb</font>]]</small><sup>[[User_talk:Ale_jrb|<font color="blue">talk</font>]]</sup> 13:50, 13 July 2009 (UTC) |
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::::Again, oppose. It'll just make things more difficult when they, say, wanna test a new script. There's no point, ''if'' they add/use an editing script, then they are likely to face consequences (e.g. block). Other than that we should let them do what the like with their monobook.js (without making it extremely difficult for them to use it). - [[User:Kingpin13|Kingpin]]<sup>[[Special:Contributions/Kingpin13|13]]</sup> ([[User talk:Kingpin13|talk]]) 13:57, 13 July 2009 (UTC) |
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::::Given the thinking behind the unblock, I'd say let Beta edit their monobook unless some new need to do otherwise comes up. [[User:Gwen Gale|Gwen Gale]] ([[User talk:Gwen Gale|talk]]) 14:01, 13 July 2009 (UTC) |
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::::Salting or deleting an on-wiki script or css file may be a hassle, but has no real impact on the ability of a technically versed user to load and execute scripts. [[User talk:Amalthea|<span style="font-family:Verdana;font-variant:small-caps;color:#832">Amalthea</span>]] 14:13, 13 July 2009 (UTC) |
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:::::Or removing the edit summary advertisement, for that matter. –<font face="verdana" color="black">[[user:xeno|'''xeno''']]</font>[[user talk:xeno|<font color="black" face="verdana"><sup>talk</sup></font>]] 14:19, 13 July 2009 (UTC) |
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*Permit me this supplementary commentary to my opposition to blocking above. Arb Coren [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Requests_for_arbitration/Date_delinking/Proposed_decision&diff=292352493&oldid=292352369 said]: {{cquote|''It has been generally agreed that any tool which requires willful, positive, intervention by its operator for every edit (or, sometimes, a small group of directly related edits) is not "automation" in that sense of the term. Using Twinkle to close an AfD debate, for instance, causes at least three consecutive edits but is done by an active request from the editor that does one, well defined, set of edits. I suppose we could find a better term "assisted editing?" to describe those marginal cases, but then we enter the territory of trying to coin new terms with all the attendant ambiguity.<p><!-- |
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-->The simple rule: if the tool you are using allows you to make systematic repeated actions, then it is automation; if it only allows doing one "logical" operation (however much easier) it is not.''}} |
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:[[User:Ohconfucius|Ohconfucius]] ([[User talk:Ohconfucius|talk]]) 14:06, 13 July 2009 (UTC) |
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::I would tend to agree, but I think this needs to be clarified by ArbCom. Twinkle can do helpful ''semi-''automated things and (as noted above by Amalthea) Twinkle can do some more automated things like unlinking on a mass-scale where it doesn't tell you beforehand which articles it is going to touch (and does not allow epm throttling). Where is the line drawn, or should Twinkle be disallowed altogether? I believe that's a question for the committee as they set the restrictions. –<font face="verdana" color="black">[[user:xeno|'''xeno''']]</font>[[user talk:xeno|<font color="black" face="verdana"><sup>talk</sup></font>]] 14:16, 13 July 2009 (UTC) |
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::This statement was made in the context of "no automation", but not "no scripts of any kind" (though even ''that'' is possibly ambiguous). I think that the current restrictions are ''meant'' to be more stringent than past ones and would include Twinkle, but I also would not fault Betacommand for not having thought it restricted given how Twinkle becomes a "natural" part of the user interface to someone used to its functionallity. — [[User:Coren|Coren]] <sup>[[User Talk:Coren|(talk)]]</sup> 15:52, 13 July 2009 (UTC) |
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*Support unblock. He seems to really have not thought about it (I often forget I'm even using Twinkle and not normal functions on WP). '''<font face="times new roman">[[User:hmwith|<span style="background:#999;color:#fff;padding:0 4px">hmwith</span>]][[User talk:hmwith|<span style="background:#666;padding:0 4px;color:#fff;">τ</span>]]</font>''' 14:09, 13 July 2009 (UTC) |
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**Shouldn't have had to think about it. Stupid, stupid restriction. That's not a preventative measure, that's a punitive one. Restricting the use of TW is clearly punishment. [[User:Jennavecia|<span style="font-family:Lucida Handwriting;color:#9B30FF">'''ل'''enna</span>]][[User talk:Jennavecia|<span style="font-family:Lucida Handwriting;color:#63B8FF">vecia</span>]] 14:18, 13 July 2009 (UTC) |
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*preemptive thought - you may want to discuss [[WP:HOTCAT]] while you're at it. — <small><span style="border:1px solid #000000;padding:1px;"><b>[[User:Ched Davis|Ched]]</b> : [[User_talk:Ched Davis|<font style="color:#FFFFFF;background:#0000fa;"> ? </font>]]</span></small> 14:51, 13 July 2009 (UTC) |
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*Support the unblock, but also support banning him from using TWINKLE and other semi-automated scripts. It simply isn't feasible to draw the line between "automated" and "semi-automated" instead of between "semi-automated" and "manual", because the main difference between "automated" and "semi-automated" is whether you look at what the (semi-)automation is doing. Which is something we can't tell. [[User:Rspeer|rspεεr]] ([[User talk:Rspeer|talk]]) 16:25, 13 July 2009 (UTC) |
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* Something tells me we're going to regret this unblock. It took less than 48 hours after the Betacommand unblock before drama appeared. --[[User:Nagle|John Nagle]] ([[User talk:Nagle|talk]]) 16:40, 13 July 2009 (UTC) |
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* What was the cause of this "drama" mentioned by Nagle? Beta's edit was the occasion, but I don't think this drama can be said to be caused by him. Rather, it was caused mostly by an admin with prior involvement. Therefore, I propose that Sandstein be barred from using admin tools with regard to Betacommand. [[User_talk:Gimmetrow|''Gimmetrow'']] 16:54, 13 July 2009 (UTC) |
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* I agree with Gimmetrow. Beta made exactly ''one'' edit with Twinkle. One. Result? Bedlam. The drama ''is not'' coming from Beta. It's the people hell bent on banning him from the project coming up with any possible excuse, any possible rationale to throw him off the train. --[[User:Hammersoft|Hammersoft]] ([[User talk:Hammersoft|talk]]) 19:14, 13 July 2009 (UTC) |
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:*History suggests that anything even remotely automated doesn't combien well with BC. History also suggests short term blocks really really don't work. See [[Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Archive63#Massive_Image_Deletion]].©[[User:Geni|Geni]] 20:11, 13 July 2009 (UTC) |
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:* Hammersoft, do you have anything to contribute to this conversation other than to question the motives of anyone who doesn't trust BetaCommand & rant about them? -- [[User:Llywrch|llywrch]] ([[User talk:Llywrch|talk]]) 21:29, 13 July 2009 (UTC) |
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:::*I spoke accurately and stand by my statements. Happy to repeat them if you like. Do you require further explanation? --[[User:Hammersoft|Hammersoft]] ([[User talk:Hammersoft|talk]]) 00:25, 14 July 2009 (UTC) |
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::* Llywrch please note that my username is '''Betacommand''' and NOT '''BetaCommand'''. Hammersofts response is accurate. Dont try discrediting a user for bringing up legitimate issues. [[User talk:Betacommand|β<sup><sub>command</sub></sup>]] 21:34, 13 July 2009 (UTC) |
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:::* I apologize for getting your name wrong. However, the rest of my comment stands. -- [[User:Llywrch|llywrch]] ([[User talk:Llywrch|talk]]) 23:30, 13 July 2009 (UTC) |
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::::: Better to say "BetaCommmand" than say ... "B'''ea'''tcommand", or "Betacommand'''o'''". Just sayin' ([[User talk:Bwilkins|<font style="font-variant:small-caps">talk→</font>]]<span style="border:1px solid black;">''' [[User:Bwilkins|BWilkins]] '''</span>[[Special:Contributions/Bwilkins|<font style="font-variant:small-caps">←track</font>]]) 23:35, 13 July 2009 (UTC) |
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::::::Or "GoCommando". Eek. [[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> [[Special:Contributions/Baseball_Bugs|carrots]] 23:36, 13 July 2009 (UTC) |
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Betacommand has pledged to abide by the rules. He was advised not to use that tool, and he has agreed not to do so. Seems like that ought to be the end of this particular brouhaha. [[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> [[Special:Contributions/Baseball_Bugs|carrots]] 23:36, 13 July 2009 (UTC) |
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===The Admin who started this speaks=== |
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As the person who originally [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Arbitration_Committee/Noticeboard&diff=301811048&oldid=301808296 pointed out BC's violation of his terms], I'd like to make a few points. First, to repeat the point others have made above, the ArbCom has clearly stated that BetaCommand is not allowed to use any automated editting tools; Twinkle is one of these automated tools; thus he violated the terms. Second, because of his behavior over the previous two years before he was placed under a community ban, it is reasonable to assume he will look for any loophole in his restrictions & exploit them fully; there are a lot of people on Wikipedia (such as I) who no longer can assume good faith in his acts, & he needs to know this ''clearly''. Thirdly, & most importantly, according to the terms of his parole the only recourse anyone other than his mentors & the ArbCom appear to have is to either complain to them or block him, neither of which I felt were appropriate in this circumstance. My preferred response would have been similar to what Theresa proposed to do above: delete & salt his monobook.js with an explanation why I did that. However, there was nothing in his parole that allowed me to do that (other than, of course [[WP:IAR]], which I felt would have caused more WikiDrama to invoke than it was worth in this instance), so I reported his violation & shortly afterwards went to bed. (It was around midnight in my time zone, my wife & I have spent the last month preparing our house for sale & looking for a new one to buy, & I wasn't in the mood to engage in this episode of Yet More Trench Warfare over BC, & discover that I was part of the losing side of the equivalent of the [[Battle of Passchendaele]].) |
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As for denying him the convenience of Twinkle -- tough beans. I don't use it, or any other automated editting tool, & I feel that my volume of contributions is more than satisfactory. One can do amazing things with simple cut-n-paste, & contributing at a manual pace allows one to actually ''think'' about one's edits, & realize that the best contribution in some instances may be a [[null function]]. (Even though that doesn't improve one's editcounts -- but I hope we are all beyond that concern.) -- [[User:Llywrch|llywrch]] ([[User talk:Llywrch|talk]]) 16:46, 13 July 2009 (UTC) |
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I am not happy to see an administrator, BC, is so controversial. FA are supposed to be WP's best work. Likewise, administrators are supposed to be WP's best editors with the possible exception of Mr. Wales, ArbCom, stewards, etc. I can see if there is a question if a particular administrator is the very best, one of the best, or just somewhat good. However, with all these questions, either the administrator in question is wrong or the people accusing his person is wrong. This is really too bad that this is happening. [[User:User F203|User F203]] ([[User talk:User F203|talk]]) 18:06, 13 July 2009 (UTC) |
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:Sorry? Betacommand is not an administrator by any stretch of the imagination. Even if he was, administrators are not the "best" editors, they're editors who have passed a form of peer review and (the cynical side of me says) more "who is the most popular editor?" than "who is the 'best' editor?" [[User:Ironholds|Ironholds]] ([[User talk:Ironholds|talk]]) 19:41, 13 July 2009 (UTC) |
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::BC is a former admin; F203 was no doubt confused about that. [[User:Looie496|Looie496]] ([[User talk:Looie496|talk]]) 20:18, 13 July 2009 (UTC) |
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::::Simply looked at his log and saw that he blocked some people. I thought that only admins block people. I did not think that former admins could have blocked people in the past. Now I know he's a former admin. [[User:User F203|User F203]] ([[User talk:User F203|talk]]) 21:28, 13 July 2009 (UTC) |
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::: He was de-adminned in [[Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Betacommand|May 2007]]. Reasons for that included poor communication skills. -- [[User:Llywrch|llywrch]] ([[User talk:Llywrch|talk]]) 21:22, 13 July 2009 (UTC) |
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<!-- [[Template:hab]] -->|} |
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== Relaxing or rescinding of community-imposed restrictions on User:Betacommand / Δ == |
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{{discussion-top|There is a clear majority supporting the creation of this simple, sorely-needed bot, performing a well-defined task in a limited arena, which will be developed and maintained in discussion with those whose needs it will meet. It is impractical to allow someone other than the bot coder to run the bot. [[User:Rd232|Rd232]] <sup>[[user talk:rd232|talk]]</sup> 11:54, 25 July 2010 (UTC)}} |
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:{{userlinks|Δ}} |
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:{{userlinks|Betacommand}} |
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:[[Wikipedia:A/R/CL#Request for clarification: User:Betacommand]] ([http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Clarification&oldid=374964796#Request_for_clarification:_User:Betacommand perm]) |
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:[[Wikipedia:Bots/Requests for approval/Δbot]] |
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The Bot Approvals Group is currently considering a request for bot approval filed by {{user|Δ}} (formerly [[User:Betacommand]]). The request is for a low-key clerking task that is unlikely to cause any issues. However, there are [[Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Betacommand 2#Log of blocks, bans, and restrictions|community-imposed restrictions in place]] that would prevent this bot from operating - |
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{{quotation|1=Community consensus placed editing restrictions on Betacommand during late May, 2008. He is prohibited from running automated programs to make edits (or edits that appear to be automated), on either a bot account, or his main account. He is also placed on civility parole; any edit which is seen as uncivil by an uninvolved administrator may lead to a block. Failure to comply with either of these restrictions will lead to a block of up to one week at the discretion of the blocking administrator. These restrictions are in place until the community decide that the remedies are no longer appropriate.}} |
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{{quotation|1=<p> |
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* Before undertaking any pattern of edits (such as a single task carried out on multiple pages) that affects more than 25 pages, Betacommand must propose the task on WP:VPR and wait at least 24 hours for community discussion. If there is any opposition, Betacommand must wait for a consensus supporting the request before he may begin. |
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* Betacommand must manually, carefully, individually review the changed content of each edit before it is made. Such review requires checking the actual content that will be saved, and verifying that the changes have not created any problems that a careful editor would be expected to detect. |
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* Betacommand must not average more than four edits per minute in any ten minute period of time. |
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* Betacommand is placed under community enforced civility parole. If any edits are judged to be uncivil, personal attacks, or assumptions of bad faith, he may be blocked by an uninvolved administrator. If not a blatant violation, discussion should take place on the appropriate noticeboard prior to blocking. |
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}} |
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I am neutral on the matter. The bot task on the table seems uncontroversial and useful. The above restrictions could be entirely rescinded, or perhaps relaxed. If the community favours the latter, perhaps something along the lines of - |
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{{quotation|1=<p>Δ is prohibited from running automated programs to make edits (or edits that appear to be automated) and from undertaking any pattern of edits (such as a single task carried out on multiple pages) that affects more than 25 pages without prior approval from the [[WP:Bot Approvals Group|Bot Approvals Group]] or the community. |
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<p>Δ is placed under community enforced civility parole. If any edits are judged to be uncivil, personal attacks, or assumptions of bad faith, he may be blocked by an uninvolved administrator. If not a blatant violation, discussion should take place on the appropriate noticeboard prior to blocking. |
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<p>This restriction replaces and supersedes the community*-imposed restrictions listed at [[Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Betacommand 2]] (*Arbitration Committee remedies remain in effect unless amended or rescinded by the committee).}} |
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Thoughts? –[[user:xeno|<font face="verdana" color="black">'''xeno'''</font>]][[user talk:xeno|<font color="black"><sup>talk</sup></font>]] 13:48, 23 July 2010 (UTC) |
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...well, a username that's actually ''easily typeable'' would have been nice :-) Is this how one shows that they want to play nicely with others? ([[User talk:Bwilkins|<font style="font-variant:small-caps">talk→</font>]]<span style="border:1px solid black;">''' [[User:Bwilkins|BWilkins]] '''</span>[[Special:Contributions/Bwilkins|<font style="font-variant:small-caps">←track</font>]]) 13:55, 23 July 2010 (UTC) |
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:[[User:Deltabot]] has been registered as doppelganger. –[[user:xeno|<font face="verdana" color="black">'''xeno'''</font>]][[user talk:xeno|<font color="black"><sup>talk</sup></font>]] 14:10, 23 July 2010 (UTC) |
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*I support the loosening of restrictions so far as is required to allow Δ to operate an approved bot. I've no opinion on the remainder of restrictions. [[User:HJ Mitchell|<font color="Teal" face="Tahoma">'''HJ Mitchell'''</font>]] | [[User talk:HJ Mitchell|<font color="Navy" face= "Times New Roman">Penny for your thoughts? </font>]] 14:40, 23 July 2010 (UTC) |
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*'''Support''' I have seen the area where the bot will work in and I agree that not only should there be a bot operated by him but he should also have his restrictions lifted in order to help clerk with us eventually. [[User:Ktr101|Kevin Rutherford]] ([[User_talk:Ktr101|talk]]) 17:54, 23 July 2010 (UTC) |
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**No way is BC/Symbol a suitable candidate to do clerking anywhere where there is likely to be tension. Scary! [[User:Spartaz|Spartaz]] <sup>''[[User talk:Spartaz|Humbug!]]''</sup> 18:05, 23 July 2010 (UTC) |
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***Except he isn't actually doing any clerking. Or any interaction with anyone on the SPI pages. Speaking as an SPI clerk active for over a year now, I would '''support''' loosening the restrictions to allow this one highly restricted bot through. '''<font color="navy">[[User:NuclearWarfare|NW]]</font>''' ''(<font color="green">[[User talk:NuclearWarfare|Talk]]</font>)'' 18:21, 23 July 2010 (UTC) |
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****My response was to Kevin's comment ''he should also have his restrictions lifted in order to help clerk with us eventually''. That kind of comment scares me as there is no evidence that BC/whatisname has learned anything about why we have a whole massive sub-board devoted to dealing with him. Encouraging (and enabling) him to delve into areas where he is going to get into trouble really isn't helping anyone. [[User:Spartaz|Spartaz]] <sup>''[[User talk:Spartaz|Humbug!]]''</sup> 18:42, 23 July 2010 (UTC) |
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*'''Firmly Oppose''' The restrictions were a response to BCs inability to play nicely when queries and issues were raised and their recent behaviour over the name change, the incorrect labelling of a non-vandalism revert as vandalism and their extreme resistance to putting a proper link between the old and new account show that getting along with other users and responding appropriately to criticism remains a significant challenge to BC/whatshisname. [[User:Spartaz|Spartaz]] <sup>''[[User talk:Spartaz|Humbug!]]''</sup> 18:02, 23 July 2010 (UTC) |
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*'''Strong Oppose''' BetaCommand cannot be trusted with bots or any kind of automated edit, as he has repeatedly shown. I'm disturbed that he has changed his name and even placed this request without noting his previous name. He should be restricted from even making these kinds of proposals. <span style="font-family:Papyrus">[[User:Verbal|<b style="color:#C72">Verbal</b>]] <small>[[User talk:Verbal#top|<span style="color:Gray;">chat</span>]]</small></span> 18:28, 23 July 2010 (UTC) |
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*'''Oppose''' He's already (too) many opportunities to reform and he has burned us too many times. [[User:ElKevbo|ElKevbo]] ([[User talk:ElKevbo|talk]]) 18:57, 23 July 2010 (UTC) |
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*'''Oppose''' Seems too good to be true. --'''[[User:Rschen7754|Rs]][[User talk:Rschen7754|chen]][[Special:Contributions/Rschen7754|7754]]''' 19:12, 23 July 2010 (UTC) |
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**If the restrictions were kept in place, with the exception of a SPI bot, I might reconsider. The proposal is too loose as it is. --'''[[User:Rschen7754|Rs]][[User talk:Rschen7754|chen]][[Special:Contributions/Rschen7754|7754]]''' 21:11, 23 July 2010 (UTC) |
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*I'm still very confused. How is it that editing only SPI pages (actually, only a SINGLE page right now) could ever lead to a large amount of disruption? There are a number of SPI admins and clerks who along with a few checkusers essentially handle the process entirely by themselves. They could use the help, and I cannot see a reason for him to be barred from helping, as he is the only one willing and able to help out. '''<font color="navy">[[User:NuclearWarfare|NW]]</font>''' ''(<font color="green">[[User talk:NuclearWarfare|Talk]]</font>)'' 19:16, 23 July 2010 (UTC) |
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::Perhaps, instead of modifying the restrictions in place, a simple exception could be made for this case: |
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{{quotation|1=Notwithstanding prior community-imposed restrictions, {{user|Δ}} is permitted to operate an approved bot for the express purpose of clerking [[WP:SPI]] and its related pages.}} |
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::SPI is currently without a clerking bot and those who work there are left wanting. –[[user:xeno|<font face="verdana" color="black">'''xeno'''</font>]][[user talk:xeno|<font color="black"><sup>talk</sup></font>]] 19:20, 23 July 2010 (UTC) |
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:::There is precedent for users running bots written by others. That could be a solution? [[User:Spartaz|Spartaz]] <sup>''[[User talk:Spartaz|Humbug!]]''</sup> 19:35, 23 July 2010 (UTC) |
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::::It seems like this bot will be a "work-in-progress", as it were (i.e. features being added in gradually, etc.), I'm not sure that would really be at all convenient. The exception route seems an easy enough pill to swallow, especially if one doesn't work at SPI. –[[user:xeno|<font face="verdana" color="black">'''xeno'''</font>]][[user talk:xeno|<font color="black"><sup>talk</sup></font>]] 19:38, 23 July 2010 (UTC) |
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:::::imo its the start of a slippery slope. [[User:Spartaz|Spartaz]] <sup>''[[User talk:Spartaz|Humbug!]]''</sup> 19:55, 23 July 2010 (UTC) |
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::::::He will only be editing pages in [[Special:PrefixIndex/Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations]]. Any further approval, such as for userpage tagging, even if granted by BAG, should go through here as well. I think that's a fair restriction. '''<font color="navy">[[User:NuclearWarfare|NW]]</font>''' ''(<font color="green">[[User talk:NuclearWarfare|Talk]]</font>)'' 19:59, 23 July 2010 (UTC) |
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:::::::Because Betacommand is well known for honouring restrictions? [[User:Resolute|Reso]][[User Talk:Resolute|lute]] 20:12, 23 July 2010 (UTC) |
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:::::::: Strong oppose exception. BetaCommand is not the only person able to do this and is not indispensable to the project. If SPI people want a bot, great. They should find a trusted member of the community to do it. There have been too many previous second chances and recent poor behaviour indicates nothing has changed. <span style="font-family:Papyrus">[[User:Verbal|<b style="color:#C72">Verbal</b>]] <small>[[User talk:Verbal#top|<span style="color:Gray;">chat</span>]]</small></span> 20:50, 23 July 2010 (UTC) |
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::::::::::Actually, he is the only one willing to do this. We have been searching high and low since almost this time last year when Nixeagle disappeared, with no luck. '''<font color="navy">[[User:NuclearWarfare|NW]]</font>''' ''(<font color="green">[[User talk:NuclearWarfare|Talk]]</font>)'' 20:53, 23 July 2010 (UTC) |
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:::::::::::And you still haven't found anyone. I suggest you keep looking. <span style="font-family:Papyrus">[[User:Verbal|<b style="color:#C72">Verbal</b>]] <small>[[User talk:Verbal#top|<span style="color:Gray;">chat</span>]]</small></span> 20:59, 23 July 2010 (UTC) |
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::I hold no view on this (except that I highly respect all work that is done at SPI; I still sometimes stuff up something when filing a SPI, if not for a SPI clerk checking what I do). But I wanted to ask a question because it's not clear to me from this discussion (and it might not be clear to others) - is it that no one else is presently able to do the task or is it that no one else is presently willing to do the task?? In the case of the latter, is there any reason why? In the case of the former, would I be correct in assuming that is because no one else has the technical know-how or the tools for doing so? [[User:Ncmvocalist|Ncmvocalist]] ([[User talk:Ncmvocalist|talk]]) 20:58, 23 July 2010 (UTC) |
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* This [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:MBisanz&oldid=367287533#I_hate_to_bug_you_but little incident] happened just last month. His cfd was denied, so he decided to move the page to his userspace, then request deletion under u1. Creative, certainly, but perhaps not so reassuring from someone who has, in the past, used bots to attack people and been a sockpuppetter. [[Special:Contributions/96.15.54.101|96.15.54.101]] ([[User talk:96.15.54.101|talk]]) 20:26, 23 July 2010 (UTC) |
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* '''Support''' - the folks at SPI want the assistance of a clerking bot, Δ is clearly willing to provide such a bot and is willing to work within the strictures of BAG on gradual upgrades to cover other features sought for SPI clerking. Some major issues Δ has had in the past have centred on communicating with editors following user talk page tagging, but this specific bot task should not produce similar problems. Using a bot for unapproved tasks has also been an issue in the past, but I am willing to [[WP:AGF|assume]] that Δ will not repeat those sorts of actions. As far as I know it is unquestioned that Δ's coding skills are at least sufficient to carry out the proposed task. Consequently, and following the philosophy that blocks / bans (and by extension, restrictions) are preventative and not punitive, I believe that the SPI area should be able to benefit from the assistance that Δ is willing to provide. [[User:EdChem|EdChem]] ([[User talk:EdChem|talk]]) 20:25, 23 July 2010 (UTC) |
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*'''Strong support'''. SPI workload skyrocketed since the old bot went down. The new bot has nothing to do with slapping notices on user talk pages warning them about potential deletion of non-free media due to insufficient rationale. I don't see any COI (whether currently or potentially) because Betacommand (or his bot) doesn't initiate any of the SPI requests. The bot only performs a set of instructions and actions of what clerks have to do by hand at the moment because we lost the bot. There's no room for any abuse of process. Besides, will anyone want to opt-out when someone files an SPI case and mention you as part of the investigation? Very unlikely. In fact, I believe such notifications should be considered as essentials. [[User:OhanaUnited|<b><font color="#0000FF">OhanaUnited</font></b>]][[User talk:OhanaUnited|<b><font color="green"><sup>Talk page</sup></font></b>]] 20:44, 23 July 2010 (UTC) |
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*'''Strongest possible support''' - We need an SPI bot. We NEED an SPI bot. '''WE NEED AN SPI BOT'''. And I'll say it again. <big>'''WE NEED AN SPI BOT.'''</big> Beta is here. He is willing to run it. No one else is. I think we should embrace it. <small>([[User:X!|<span style="color:gray">X!</span>]] · [[User talk:X!|<span style="color:gray">talk</span>]]) · [[Swatch Internet Time|@920]] · </small> 21:05, 23 July 2010 (UTC) |
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**why don't you run the bit if BC/thingymajig writes it? [[User:Spartaz|Spartaz]] <sup>''[[User talk:Spartaz|Humbug!]]''</sup> 21:16, 23 July 2010 (UTC) |
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**"No one else is" Please show some validation of that claim? I have yet to see a request for one ont he bot requests board, which is the general avenue where people/groups wanting bots to automate tasks ask for them and is constantly monitored by alot of the bot owners and operators. [[User:Peachey88|Peachey88]] <sup>([[User_Talk:Peachey88|Talk Page]]<span style="font-weight:bold;"> ·</span>  [[Special:Contributions/Peachey88|Contribs]])</sup> 00:37, 24 July 2010 (UTC) |
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*** Someone [[Wikipedia:Bot_requests/Archive_33#Sockpuppet_investigations_bot|asked 6 months ago]], no takers. [[User:OhanaUnited|<b><font color="#0000FF">OhanaUnited</font></b>]][[User talk:OhanaUnited|<b><font color="green"><sup>Talk page</sup></font></b>]] 03:21, 24 July 2010 (UTC) |
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*'''Weak support''' - On general principles, this would be a strong oppose, but the adamancy of the SPI folks convinces me that they really need this and see Betacommand as their only available choice. Given that, I'd say make a '''''very tightly focused''''' adjustment in his restrictions to allow this, and let's see what happens. Yes, it's definitely putting his foot on the slippery slope, but doing this will provide the community with the chance to see if Beta has changed. My caveat would be that if things work out, we should deliberately avoid the impetus that will come to rush willy-nilly into relaxing his restrictions overall: each step should be a carefully considered one. Beta's decline took years, there's no reason that his rehabilitation (if it ever happens) shouldn't play out on the same time scale. [[User:Beyond My Ken|Beyond My Ken]] ([[User talk:Beyond My Ken|talk]]) 21:17, 23 July 2010 (UTC) |
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**BetaCommand is not the only person who can write bots. One of the SPI people can do it without overturning the will of the community. <span style="font-family:Papyrus">[[User:Verbal|<b style="color:#C72">Verbal</b>]] <small>[[User talk:Verbal#top|<span style="color:Gray;">chat</span>]]</small></span> 21:24, 23 July 2010 (UTC) |
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***And who would this person be? Seriously, if [[gender-neutral pronoun|hu]] exists, just give me their name and I'll do the rest. '''<font color="navy">[[User:NuclearWarfare|NW]]</font>''' ''(<font color="green">[[User talk:NuclearWarfare|Talk]]</font>)'' 01:02, 24 July 2010 (UTC) |
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*'''Support''' This is a task which doesn't require interaction with other users (one of Δ's problem areas in the past), does not have the potential to disrupt the project (which was one of the accusations leveled at him in the past), and would dramatically benefit from a bot doing the drudgework. I'm not likely to support a wholesale removal of the restrictions on him, but for this I don't see any problems. '''[[User:Horologium|<font color="DarkSlateGray">Horologium</font>]]''' <small>[[User talk:Horologium|(talk)]]</small> 21:24, 23 July 2010 (UTC) |
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*'''Qualified support''' for second proposal - SPI clerking is the only area BC may operate a bot, and the issue will be reviewed <u>at AN</u> in 3 months time, then 3 months after that, and then 6 months after that. Minor issues found will stop the clock (that cycle needs to repeat), more serious but not major issues will reset the clock back to the start, and any major issue will result in the previous restrictions being reapplied over all of WP. If BC gets through a year (15-18 months) then he might have a case for a review of all restrictions, plus SPI has a bot it feels it needs. The review system allows oversight by parties not as desirous for an SPI bot, so there is less tolerance for "a mistake or two" too many. [[User:LessHeard vanU|LessHeard vanU]] ([[User talk:LessHeard vanU|talk]]) 21:29, 23 July 2010 (UTC) |
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*'''Support''' per usual rather low quality opposes. Honestly, if you're going to oppose, at least make it convincing .... really. Oh, and consistently good BC work. Opposers, ask yourselves if your work here has been more productive. [[User_talk:Black Kite|Black Kite (t)]] [[Special:Contributions/Black_Kite|(c)]] 21:34, 23 July 2010 (UTC) |
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*'''Oppose''' as currently worded. We've been down this road with Betacommand before, and he has abused the community's trust ten times too many for me to accept any proposal that relies on his honour not to abuse Wikipedia's policies or any restrictions placed on him. I would support only if an amendment to his restrictions makes it plain that his bot is to do only what it is '''explicitly''' approved for and that any abuse of a script, or any use of a bot on his main or bot account that does not fall within very clearly defined parameters of use would result in an immediate indefinite block/ban. That means no excuses, no justifications, no equivocation and no testing the limits. Betacommand has proven the honour system does not work on him, and I wonder if this community, especially his supporters, have the will to keep him under control? Specifically to his SPI supporters: Would you make excuses for him if he abuses the community's trust (yet again) because he sells you a convenience, or are you willing to enforce any restrictions that remian on him if that trust is abused? And this question is asked under the strictest definition of "zero tolerance" that you can imagine. [[User:Resolute|Reso]][[User Talk:Resolute|lute]] 21:52, 23 July 2010 (UTC) |
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*'''Support''' An SPI bot is desperately needed since the old one has been dead for months now, and the developer seems to either be gone from Wikipedia or just busy with other things. Betacommand has demonstrated his ability to edit helpfully and collegially since his unban and his unique abilities can be a huge asset here. Let him create his SPI bot. [[User:Burpelson AFB|Burpelson AFB]] ([[User talk:Burpelson AFB|talk]]) 22:05, 23 July 2010 (UTC) |
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**Has he heck! You only need to look at his behaviour over the rename to see that all the old issues with BC/thingy are still there. [[User:Spartaz|Spartaz]] <sup>''[[User talk:Spartaz|Humbug!]]''</sup> 22:23, 23 July 2010 (UTC) |
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*'''Oppose''' per Spartaz, Verbal, ElKevbo, Rschen7754, and Resolute. This user still does not play nicely or exhibit good judgement. — <font size="4">[[User:Jeff G.|Jeff]] [[User:Jeff G./talk|G. ツ]]</font> 23:06, 23 July 2010 (UTC) |
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::I cannot see how this [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:%CE%94&diff=cur final warning] to Δ as a result of removing ''two external links'' was not [[WP:POINT]]y in any way. –[[User talk:MuZemike|MuZemike]] 00:25, 24 July 2010 (UTC) |
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*'''Strong Oppose''': Per Jeff G. - <small style="white-space:nowrap;border:1px solid #900;padding:1px;">[[User:Neutralhomer|<span style="color:#900;">Neutralhomer</span>]] • [[User talk:Neutralhomer|<span style="color:Black;White;">Talk</span>]] • 23:16, 23 July 2010 (UTC)</small> |
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*'''Comment''' – if the community will not allow Δ to run a bot for ''one project'' that does not touch anywhere else, then SPI will permanently go botless, and the community can figure out what to do with SPI. I will have no part in helping out as far as coding/testing a bot is concerned. –[[User talk:MuZemike|MuZemike]] 00:25, 24 July 2010 (UTC) |
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* '''Oppose''' per many others, This user has been given plenty of chances which usually ending with heated debates ([[Special:Prefixindex/Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Betacommand]] For some of the AN ones) or arbitration. Which in some cases were results from not abiding by the policies such as the bot ones or civility when he didn't get his way or if users questioned something. He isn't the only bot operator out there that can do this, I'm sure if the SPI clerks asked around (such as at [[WP:BOTREQ|Bot requests noticeboard]])they would be able to find a willing body or so. [[User:Peachey88|Peachey88]] <sup>([[User_Talk:Peachey88|Talk Page]]<span style="font-weight:bold;"> ·</span>  [[Special:Contributions/Peachey88|Contribs]])</sup> 00:37, 24 July 2010 (UTC) |
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**I asked [[Wikipedia:Bot_requests/Archive_33#Sockpuppet_investigations_bot|six months ago]], and rather gave up after that. I tried putting out some feelers to people I thought might be willing to help, but no bites. Since this mythical bot writer who would be willing to help just isn't turning up now, and hasn't for the past year+, can we just focus on the current request? '''<font color="navy">[[User:NuclearWarfare|NW]]</font>''' ''(<font color="green">[[User talk:NuclearWarfare|Talk]]</font>)'' 01:02, 24 July 2010 (UTC) |
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***Yes, lets focus on the current request. Which leads me to wonder: Why are we basing support of this request exclusively on the desire for a bot with apparently no consideration for an editor who has a long history of incivility, socking, running unauthorized bots, etc? He was desysopped for basically abusing the tools, and later community banned. I'd like to see some assurance that you guys are willing to shut him down if he does what he does best and oversteps his boundaries. I well remember how much shit he got away with because people deluded themselves into thinking his bots were indespensible. Turns out Wikipedia survived just fine with out him. Can we trust that interested parties in SPI won't turn a blind eye if previous abuses resurface? [[User:Resolute|Reso]][[User Talk:Resolute|lute]] 04:23, 24 July 2010 (UTC) |
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* '''Comment''' The previous SPI bot stopped editing back in December of last year, prior to that there where issues with its stability for months prior. Its been over a year and a half since Ive done bot work on this project, There is little room for errors here, and the only place where errors would occur are on the SPI pages. which leaves the community at very little risk. The SPI team has been seeking assistance for replacing their old bot since before it stopped editing. What better way than a very limited scope is there to demonstrate that I have changed? [[User talk:Δ|ΔT <sub><sup><font color="darkred">The only constant</font></sup></sub>]] 00:39, 24 July 2010 (UTC) |
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*'''Strong Support''' - I don't know how much my opinions matter here as I am neither an admin, a checkuser, or even a SPI clerk.. but regarding the amount of backlog there is(and I have seen the page this bot would be creating(it is currently maintained manually)), we really do need a bot here. I may not hold a right or title, but I have been working in SPI a long time, maybe not as long as others, but still a long time. I don't see how this bot would interfere and create disruption.— '''[[User:Daedalus969|<font color="Green">Dæ</font>]][[User talk:Daedalus969|<font color="Blue">dαlus</font>]]<sup> [[Special:Contributions/Daedalus969|<font color="Green">Contribs</font>]]</sup>''' 00:50, 24 July 2010 (UTC) |
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*'''Strongest possible support''' SPI bot = needed; betacommand = willing; blocking = easy Assume some good faith, and let this proposal through. ''[[User:NativeForeigner|NativeForeigner]]'' <sup>[[User talk:NativeForeigner|Talk]]</sup>/<sub>[[Special:Contributions/NativeForeigner|Contribs]]</sub> 01:12, 24 July 2010 (UTC) |
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*'''Comment'''. Hmmm. During the time Betacommand was blocked, wasn't he [[WP:SOCK]]ing? I see a potential problem here if his bot can affect checkuser reports. I don't ''think'' he'd set up his bot to remove an SPI report against him, but I don't think the possibility should be ignored. — [[User:Arthur Rubin|Arthur Rubin]] [[User talk:Arthur Rubin|(talk)]] 01:38, 24 July 2010 (UTC) |
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**As a checkuser that has blocked Betacommand's socks and publicly announced it on this noticeboard before, I would like to formally request some of what you are smoking. --[[User:Deskana|Deskana]] [[User talk:Deskana|(talk)]] 01:43, 24 July 2010 (UTC) |
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*'''Support''' whatever modification/relaxation that is necessary to allow Delta/Betacommand to run the SPI bot. The SPI clerks and checkusers, many (and for checkusers, all) of whom are experienced administrators, are more than able to keep the situation in check if necessary. [[User:Tim Song|T. Canens]] ([[User talk:Tim Song|talk]]) 04:05, 24 July 2010 (UTC) |
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*'''Qualified support''' based on that he really can't hurt much with it editing one page under the watchful eye of the SPI admins. Deskana's idea below also would be good. '''[[User:MBisanz|<span style='color: #FFFF00;background-color: #0000FF;'>MBisanz</span>]]''' <sup>[[User talk:MBisanz|<span style='color: #FFA500;'>talk</span>]]</sup> 05:09, 24 July 2010 (UTC) |
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*'''Support''' It is difficult to overstate the needless mess and pain ßC caused over the full course of his bot fiascoes. However, it has been equally clear that the bots he operates make wikipedia run much better (when they aren't causing problems) and it has become clear that he has worked to change some of those habits which caused the problems in the first place. We need a clerking bot, ßC is willing to operate one, let us extend an offer. [[User:Protonk|Protonk]] ([[User talk:Protonk|talk]]) 05:18, 24 July 2010 (UTC) |
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**'''Comment''': As I said below, I am all for the bot, but I think Beta/Triangle should remain on the outer fringes doing technical work while a trusted admin/bot op (X! came to mind) operated the bot on their account. If, at some time, Beta/Triangle seems to be worthy of the position, then I say we give it to him, but not while he is under restrictions. Let those expire first. - <small style="white-space:nowrap;border:1px solid #900;padding:1px;">[[User:Neutralhomer|<span style="color:#900;">Neutralhomer</span>]] • [[User talk:Neutralhomer|<span style="color:Black;White;">Talk</span>]] • 05:23, 24 July 2010 (UTC)</small> |
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***Those said restrictions will never expire, thus I cannot wait it out. [[User talk:Δ|ΔT <sub><sup><font color="darkred">The only constant</font></sup></sub>]] 09:40, 24 July 2010 (UTC) |
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*'''Support''' - I support this user being able to run bots again. I had even asked him on his talk page if he'd consider reactivating some of his previous bots, like BetacoomandBot. We should be more open to automating all these tedious functions that nobody wants to do. [[User:Kindzmarauli|Kindzmarauli]] ([[User talk:Kindzmarauli|talk]]) 05:52, 24 July 2010 (UTC) |
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*'''Oppose''' and [[WP:TROUT]] to those who're focusing on the task instead of the troublemaker. There is absolutely no guarantee that anything but trouble will be forthcoming from the user formerly known as Betacommand. The 'pedia will be a better place if we write him off entirely and completely, and instead focus on recruiting a new bot coder who can actually play nice with others. [[User:Jclemens|Jclemens]] ([[User talk:Jclemens|talk]]) 06:05, 24 July 2010 (UTC) |
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* '''Support''' lifting restrictions. ßetacommand, or Δ, has done good work and my recollection is that the core of the objections was that many who upload [[WP:NFCC]] flaunting stuff simply wanted that good work ''not done''. Development by working via [[waldos]] is not at all practical, although others might also run stable code, if it's offered. And we need this sort of work done, that's the bottom line. Cheers, [[User:Jack Merridew|Jack Merridew]] 06:13, 24 July 2010 (UTC) |
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*:That's not entirely absurd, but it's not entirely correct. He's done good work, but (for example) refused to admit that his interpretation of NFCC#10c was clearly wrong, although possibly the best that could be expected from a bot. — [[User:Arthur Rubin|Arthur Rubin]] [[User talk:Arthur Rubin|(talk)]] 07:27, 24 July 2010 (UTC) |
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*:: I don't recall the specifics; I'm hard-core on 10a; specific links, or no dice. Simple redirects per moves count, but complex situations probably not. We've huge amounts of non-compliant nfc about and ''that's a problem.'' "Δ" means ''change'' and ß-tools are good. [[User:Jack Merridew|Jack Merridew]] 09:24, 24 July 2010 (UTC) |
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*'''Oppose''' The end does not justify the means. [[User:Colonel Warden|Colonel Warden]] ([[User talk:Colonel Warden|talk]]) 08:26, 24 July 2010 (UTC) |
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*'''Support'''. I have always felt the spirit of [[WP:AGF]] allows folks a second chance, a third chance, and so forth, so long as someone continues to show reasonable evidence of good faith. Betacommand has certainly utilized a few of those aforementioned chances, but I do not believe "bad faith" is a good description of his attitude towards Wikipedia. Therefore, I support any reasonable modification of his restrictions to allow the operation of this bot, or future bots as approved by the community or the bot group. <small><span class='nounderlines' style="text-decoration:none"><font face="tahoma"><font color="#df1620">[[user:jæs|'''jæs''']]</font> <font color="#6b6c6d">[[user talk:jæs|<small>(talk)</small>]]</font></font></span></small> 08:36, 24 July 2010 (UTC) |
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*I '''oppose''' lifting any restrictions, but I '''support''' allowing Delta to use that one single bot for that one single purpose, and nothing more (yet). Let's see how that works out. --[[User:Conti|Conti]]|[[User talk:Conti|✉]] 09:48, 24 July 2010 (UTC) |
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**That ''is'' a lifting of restrictions. <span style="font-family:Papyrus">[[User:Verbal|<b style="color:#C72">Verbal</b>]] <small>[[User talk:Verbal#top|<span style="color:Gray;">chat</span>]]</small></span> 12:12, 24 July 2010 (UTC) |
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***It's adding an exception. The restriction remains in place. –[[user:xeno|<font face="verdana" color="black">'''xeno'''</font>]][[user talk:xeno|<font color="black"><sup>talk</sup></font>]] 13:12, 24 July 2010 (UTC) |
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****If you are adding an exception you are weakening the restriction. <span style="font-family:Papyrus">[[User:Verbal|<b style="color:#C72">Verbal</b>]] <small>[[User talk:Verbal#top|<span style="color:Gray;">chat</span>]]</small></span> 16:04, 24 July 2010 (UTC) |
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*'''Support''': BC/Delta is willing to take on the bot-building challenge. As stated earlier, no one else seems to be except maybe X!, who is already maintaining a couple dozen bots. The specific bot we are discussing here doesn't need to interact with anyone other than Checkusers and Clerks. I think this represents and opportunity for BC/Delta to show he can be a net positive to the community. If he makes a good bot, SPI can run more quickly and effectively without the clerks having to do as much tedious, repetitive busy work. I don't think there's much he could do with the code (pretty hard to hide "if:casename=betacommand"; code doesn't lie). Furthermore I think the individuals he'd be working with (CU and SPI Clerks) are...uhh...<i>well versed</i> in detecting and responding to fishy behavior. Isn't that what SPI is designed to deal with in the first place? I think he's under enough scrutiny to prevent these kind of issues from occurring. Let him make the bot. If he does a good job, the community wins. If he does something fishy, block the bot (and him) and move on. There's no opportunity for net gain if the community does not provide a chance for it. <span style="font-size:smaller;font-family:'arial bold',sans-serif;border:1px solid Black;">[[User:N419BH|<span style="color:Black;background:#FFD700;">N419</span>]][[User talk:N419BH|<span style="background:Black;color:#FFD700;">BH</span>]]</span> 13:48, 24 July 2010 (UTC) |
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*'''Support''' the adding of an exception to allow Δ/Beta dude, how do you type that? to run this specific SPI bot as approved by the bot approvals group and the code being made available as per the note for review. After reading/watching this go back and forth awhile, I'm not seeing much meat to any of the opposes beyond "its Beta" and "because of his past" without any diffs, etc to show any recent issues with socking (which would obviously result in his being blocked), policy violations, etc. He has not, in fact, been blocked in nearly a year and clearly as he is not banned, the community is willing to accept him. I think this particular operation is something that can easily be added as an exception to his current restrictions, and frankly it is desperately needed (as are more CUs but thats another whole issue). SPI is floundering like crazy right now and despite what some of those who oppose this have said, it is NOT an easy thing to code up a bot. I am a programmer by trade, and I took a look at the bot stuff, and said "hell no." Coding up an eCommerce web application is easier, by far, IMHO. And, as has already been noted, even among those who are crazy enough (no offense) to both enjoy coding bots and good enough to do one of this nature, not ONE has stepped forward to do it in almost a year. And in this thread, despite some of the unsupported and barely civil remarks made, in my opinion Beta has kept his cool which speaks more towards his sincerity than anything else. -- [[User:AnmaFinotera|<span style='font-family: Georgia, serif; color:#639;'><em>AnmaFinotera</em></span>]] ([[User talk:AnmaFinotera|<em style="color: #F90">talk</em>]] ~ [[Special:Contributions/AnmaFinotera|<em style="color: #099">contribs</em>]]) 18:11, 24 July 2010 (UTC) |
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* '''Support''' - Yes there is understandable concern about letting operate a bot. But if someone wanted to give a user another chance, and was asked to carefully define a task that would be appropriate, one could hardly design a better task. It affects a single page, one under constant watch, and doesn't require notification on user talk pages, plus it will be under the watchful eye of some of the most clueful editors in WP. Not to mention, it is sorely needed and no one else is stepping up.--<font style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva; font-size:15px;">[[User:Sphilbrick|<span style="background:#002868;color:#fff;padding:0 4px">SPhilbrick</span>]][[User talk:Sphilbrick|<span style="background:#ADD8E6;padding:0 4px;color:#fff;">T</span>]]</font> 00:43, 25 July 2010 (UTC) |
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* '''Strongest possible oppose''' Betacommand has shown repeatedly that he can't be trusted to handle automated tools in a responsible matter, or for that matter, even handle himself in a responsible matter. Have we all forgotten the months and months of drama and multiple ARBCOM cases already? Apparently so. [[User:Jtrainor|Jtrainor]] ([[User talk:Jtrainor|talk]]) 08:55, 25 July 2010 (UTC) |
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===Arbitrary break 1=== |
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Just a quick tally. As of this moment, we have 20 supports, 10 oppose (+ 1 IP oppose) and a handful of people sitting on the fence. [[User:OhanaUnited|<b><font color="#0000FF">OhanaUnited</font></b>]][[User talk:OhanaUnited|<b><font color="green"><sup>Talk page</sup></font></b>]] 17:56, 24 July 2010 (UTC) |
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===Redux=== |
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What we have here is a simple question: Should an editor who has been known to ''abusively'' use multiple accounts (sockpuppet) and who is know to have ''abused'' automated editing and bots, be allowed to run a bot on sockpuppet investigations pages? I'm generally skeptical of the poacher turned gamekeeper theory, but in this case it seems to be poacher turned poacher and gamekeeper. There is no way this should be allowed, based on his very recent sockpuppeting and problematic behaviour. <span style="font-family:Papyrus">[[User:Verbal|<b style="color:#C72">Verbal</b>]] <small>[[User talk:Verbal#top|<span style="color:Gray;">chat</span>]]</small></span> 12:12, 24 July 2010 (UTC) |
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:Please check your facts, "very recently" is not accurate. Your poacher/gamekeeper analogy is also flawed in several different areas. If there future SPI cases involving me, it doesnt matter what actions I take the report cannot be suppressed, there are just too many eyes involved. If you read the whole discussion, one of the checkusers used the phrase ''I would like to formally request some of what you are smoking'', meaning that the idea is crazy. Also depending on your field there are a lot of people who jump the fence, take a look at [[Kevin Mitnick]], [[Chad Davis]] and others. So please review your information before making claims that are incorrect. [[User talk:Δ|ΔT <sub><sup><font color="darkred">The only constant</font></sup></sub>]] 13:06, 24 July 2010 (UTC) |
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::I'd like clarification of the checkuser's statement, myself. I thought, at first, it was referring to the allegation that you could be trusted to act properly on the SPI page. For example, your indexing bot ''could'' be written to '''fail to index''' or even to '''de-index''' a sockpuppet case involving you. ''I'' don't think you'd do that, but I felt it should be brought up for consideration. — [[User:Arthur Rubin|Arthur Rubin]] [[User talk:Arthur Rubin|(talk)]] 13:33, 24 July 2010 (UTC) |
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:::My "claims" are entirely correct. You have not jumped the fence, but want the keys to safe anyway. <span style="font-family:Papyrus">[[User:Verbal|<b style="color:#C72">Verbal</b>]] <small>[[User talk:Verbal#top|<span style="color:Gray;">chat</span>]]</small></span> 14:33, 24 July 2010 (UTC) |
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Arthur, my comment was made out of frustration with respect to the fact that you would think Betacommand could possibly code the bot to remove an SPI case about him. I think the suggestion that Betacommand would do that is nothing short of insane. Aside from the fact that we've got a whole team of clerks that watch the SPI pages, Betacommand would essentially be burying himself alive. Betacommand may be a lot of things to a lot of different people, but he's not stupid. If you don't think that he'll do that (which you've now indicated you don't), then that's fine. Irrespective of Betacommand's past, his current situation, and what might become of his future, we ''desperately'' need an SPI bot and I trust him to run it. Bear in mind, this statement is coming from someone who has ran checks on him, blocked his socks, and even asked mailing list admins to have him removed from mailing lists. --[[User:Deskana|Deskana]] [[User talk:Deskana|(talk)]] 16:27, 24 July 2010 (UTC) |
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=== Idea === |
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Have Beta/Triangle create the bot and an already exsisting bot operator run the bot. Beta can provide technical advice, but the bot op would have the bot on their account. Beta would have no access. An SPI bot might be a good thing, but I feel it would be better if a trusted bot op were the one calling the shots with the bot than Beta/Triangle. - <small style="white-space:nowrap;border:1px solid #900;padding:1px;">[[User:Neutralhomer|<span style="color:#900;">Neutralhomer</span>]] • [[User talk:Neutralhomer|<span style="color:Black;White;">Talk</span>]] • 01:09, 24 July 2010 (UTC)</small> |
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:I assume that, as a checkuser, I would be a no-brainer candidate for this job. I'm willing to volunteer, if people like this solution. I'd need some technical help on exactly how to run it, though. --[[User:Deskana|Deskana]] [[User talk:Deskana|(talk)]] 01:13, 24 July 2010 (UTC) |
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::No offense, but i think a pre-exiting bot owner would be better, purely from the point of view they have the technical know-how and can understand the code to see what it actually does before running it and can quickly fix issues should they arise. [[User:Peachey88|Peachey88]] <sup>([[User_Talk:Peachey88|Talk Page]]<span style="font-weight:bold;"> ·</span>  [[Special:Contributions/Peachey88|Contribs]])</sup> 01:16, 24 July 2010 (UTC) |
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:::I take offense! No, not really. That works for me too, mainly because it means I can be lazy. :-) --[[User:Deskana|Deskana]] [[User talk:Deskana|(talk)]] 01:20, 24 July 2010 (UTC) |
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:::Most users would need a fairly major crash course in my code design, If said bot operator existed why did they not step forward already to create this bot? Looking at this from a practical standpoint this just doesn't work well, in order for me to test new code I would need to write the code, email it to the operator, have them run the code, have it crash/error, have the operator email me their exact computer specs, full traceback, and any other related data, I would need to review it and then create a patch. This on a good day would take about an hour. On a typical day it would mean that there is a 12+ hour gap. If Im testing/running my own code this process goes down to about 20 minutes. When coding there are often stupid mistakes, missing ; unbalanced parens or something just as trivial that prevents a program from working. By forcing someone else into the normal loop it just makes it impractical. [[User talk:Δ|ΔT <sub><sup><font color="darkred">The only constant</font></sup></sub>]] 01:24, 24 July 2010 (UTC) |
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::::I would recommend [[User:X!]] for the job. He runs a bot already (and some Toolserver stuff), so he has the technical know-how, is an admin and a 'crat, so he is trusted, and I think worthy of the position. That is just someone I picked off hand, not someone I know well. - <small style="white-space:nowrap;border:1px solid #900;padding:1px;">[[User:Neutralhomer|<span style="color:#900;">Neutralhomer</span>]] • [[User talk:Neutralhomer|<span style="color:Black;White;">Talk</span>]] • 01:27, 24 July 2010 (UTC)</small> |
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:::::I'm not sure he has the time right now. He's working on a project. Certainly, you could ask him though. --[[User:Deskana|Deskana]] [[User talk:Deskana|(talk)]] 01:48, 24 July 2010 (UTC) |
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::::::I'm in the middle of whipping a quick one up. <small>([[User:X!|<span style="color:gray">X!</span>]] · [[User talk:X!|<span style="color:gray">talk</span>]]) · [[Swatch Internet Time|@118]] · </small> 01:50, 24 July 2010 (UTC) |
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I don't know how good an idea this is. First off, what are we trying to accomplish? The bot behavior itself would manifestly by determined by ßC's decisions. Operation would just mean that some other editor would have the social right to stop the bot, as opposed to all admins having the technical right to do so (which is true either way). Debugging or improving the bot would still fall to ßC, unless the operator were basically advanced enough to write their own clerking bot. [[User:Protonk|Protonk]] ([[User talk:Protonk|talk]]) 05:21, 24 July 2010 (UTC) |
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: Actually no. Since I haven't seen how the Beta's bot work, I will comment on what the old bot did. Basically the bot detects a new case is filed and transclude the case page onto main SPI page pending queue. Then goes all the comments and the clerk will determine whether to accept/decline CU, which this step can't be automated anyways because it's a clerk who makes the call and not the bot. Once the decision is made, clerk updates a field in the SPI template and prompts the bot to either archive it (in the case of decline) or move the case page from pending to CU-required (in the case of acceptance). When CU is finished (plus all the blocking & tagging), clerks will add the keyword "archive" in the template. When the bot detects this keyword appearing in the template, it will archive the case. Nowhere can I see Beta personally intervene with the process. [[User:OhanaUnited|<b><font color="#0000FF">OhanaUnited</font></b>]][[User talk:OhanaUnited|<b><font color="green"><sup>Talk page</sup></font></b>]] 07:08, 24 July 2010 (UTC) |
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:: I think Protonk's point is that BC/Delta still has full control over the bot's code under this system; thus, the bot's behavior (i.e., what it does in response to instructions etc.) is still controlled by BC/Delta's programming decisions. [[User:Tim Song|T. Canens]] ([[User talk:Tim Song|talk]]) 07:28, 24 July 2010 (UTC) |
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:::Exactly. I have no doubt that a reasonably competent programmer could grok the code itself, but we would only be using that person as a custodian. [[User:Protonk|Protonk]] ([[User talk:Protonk|talk]]) 17:10, 24 July 2010 (UTC) |
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*I would '''Support''' this option as well - in fact I suggested it yesterday. I don't mind BC/thingy writing the code if another user takes responsibility for the actions of the bot. This is the perfect solution as the issue is the way the BC/thing interacts with other users whern criticised not his bot writing skills. And some of those opposing because they fear he would use the bot to suppress reports on himself need to get some perspective as there is no way that could pass undetected. Kudos to Deskana for offering to take this on. [[User:Spartaz|Spartaz]] <sup>''[[User talk:Spartaz|Humbug!]]''</sup> 07:58, 24 July 2010 (UTC) |
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**Please take a look at deskana's response above about any possible COI/removal of cases about myself. As for user interaction the only users I will be really working with are the SPI clerks, and checkusers (which most have stated their favor for me to run the bot). [[User talk:Δ|ΔT <sub><sup><font color="darkred">The only constant</font></sup></sub>]] 09:40, 24 July 2010 (UTC) |
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***I'm sorry but I simply don't trust you to do this without direct supervision of the bot. Only last week you were edit warring with me and labelling me a vandal. This is the kind of activity that erodes trust. Otherwise, I'm happy for Deskana to look after the bot and monitor its actions as I trust him. [[User:Spartaz|Spartaz]] <sup>''[[User talk:Spartaz|Humbug!]]''</sup> 09:51, 24 July 2010 (UTC) |
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****Delt/BC can write the bot if he likes and then donate the code to wikipedia and it can be reviewed and run by someone else. <span style="font-family:Papyrus">[[User:Verbal|<b style="color:#C72">Verbal</b>]] <small>[[User talk:Verbal#top|<span style="color:Gray;">chat</span>]]</small></span> 10:44, 24 July 2010 (UTC) |
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:As a bot operator myself, I know that this simply isn't practical. Writing a bot is often an interactive process, and sometimes you need to code on the fly while the bot is actually running. –[[user:xeno|<font face="verdana" color="black">'''xeno'''</font>]][[user talk:xeno|<font color="black"><sup>talk</sup></font>]] 13:12, 24 July 2010 (UTC) |
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::In view of that (almost certainly correct) note, I lean more against beta/delta as an operator of this bot, without a requirement that all bot code, including interim code, be '''published''' for review. (As far as I'm concerned, it could be run immediately after being published, before review, but publication needs to be required.) — [[User:Arthur Rubin|Arthur Rubin]] [[User talk:Arthur Rubin|(talk)]] 13:38, 24 July 2010 (UTC) |
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:::I have always had an open door policy with regard to my code, I dont publish it publicly for security reasons. When I write code its designed for a very specific purpose, those who are not familiar with my code and attempt to run it could cause a lot of problems. What my policy has always been, and will continue to be, is I freely give my code to those users who I know will not mess with the code or attempt to use it without knowing exactly what they are doing. (Basically I can trust the person not to fuck up using my code). Those users who want to see my code are always free to contact me about any program that I have developed. If you want to get a group of users together who know python and are willing to take the time for a crash course in pywikipedia and a fairly large custom framework we can try to work something out. [[User talk:Δ|ΔT <sub><sup><font color="darkred">The only constant</font></sup></sub>]] 13:51, 24 July 2010 (UTC) |
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::::In re: to Arthur's concern and further to Δ's comment, we could add a stipulation. –[[user:xeno|<font face="verdana" color="black">'''xeno'''</font>]][[user talk:xeno|<font color="black"><sup>talk</sup></font>]] 13:58, 24 July 2010 (UTC) |
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{{quotation|1=Notwithstanding prior community-imposed restrictions, {{user|Δ}} is permitted to operate an approved bot for the sole express purpose of clerking [[WP:SPI]] and its related pages. The source code of this bot shall be made available to the [[WP:Bot Approvals Group|Bot Approvals Group]] and any administrator or trusted user who requests it.}} |
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:::::And how would we ensure the code he is running is the same as that he discloses? And why all the secrecy anyway? What is a trusted user (plenty of admins fail that category!) <span style="font-family:Papyrus">[[User:Verbal|<b style="color:#C72">Verbal</b>]] <small>[[User talk:Verbal#top|<span style="color:Gray;">chat</span>]]</small></span> 17:03, 24 July 2010 (UTC) |
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::::::In the wrong hands the tools I develop can cause a lot of problems. When my NFCC bot was running it reached over 5000 edits an hour, now that kind of tool in the wrong hands can cause a major disruption, and I prefer to not give the vandals any more tools. I have other tools that would let vandals place goatse's on the main page if they where abused. I dont just hand powerful tools out to everyone (neither does wikipedia hand out sysop tools to everyone). Its a matter of trust. There are some children (age 9-13) that if you gave them a firearm they would probably kill themselves or a friend, however there are others that use firearms daily and can be trusted with them because they know what they are doing (hunters and others). [[User talk:Δ|ΔT <sub><sup><font color="darkred">The only constant</font></sup></sub>]] 17:34, 24 July 2010 (UTC) |
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::::::Your hands are the wrong hands, as has been shown repeatedly. <span style="font-family:Papyrus">[[User:Verbal|<b style="color:#C72">Verbal</b>]] <small>[[User talk:Verbal#top|<span style="color:Gray;">chat</span>]]</small></span> 19:12, 24 July 2010 (UTC) |
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*'''Comment''' I have absolutely no argument that the bot is needed. I have no argument that <random-GreekLetter>Alpha|Beta|Gamma|Delta</random> has the programming skills to create/maintain it (and therefore also be able to completely eff things up badly). Personally, I currently run a bot that was programmed by someone else ... so that is, indeed, doable. ([[User talk:Bwilkins|<font style="font-variant:small-caps">talk→</font>]]<span style="border:1px solid black;">''' [[User:Bwilkins|BWilkins]] '''</span>[[Special:Contributions/Bwilkins|<font style="font-variant:small-caps">←track</font>]]) 15:19, 24 July 2010 (UTC) |
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**If I might ask, which bot are you referring to? [[User talk:Δ|ΔT <sub><sup><font color="darkred">The only constant</font></sup></sub>]] 16:22, 24 July 2010 (UTC) |
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*** [[User:7SeriesBOT|This one :-)]] ([[User talk:Bwilkins|<font style="font-variant:small-caps">talk→</font>]]<span style="border:1px solid black;">''' [[User:Bwilkins|BWilkins]] '''</span>[[Special:Contributions/Bwilkins|<font style="font-variant:small-caps">←track</font>]]) 18:03, 24 July 2010 (UTC) |
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===Solution=== |
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User:X! has stated above that they are working on a bot for this. That makes this entire discussion moot, and there should be no weakening or lifting of BC/Ds restrictions. <span style="font-family:Papyrus">[[User:Verbal|<b style="color:#C72">Verbal</b>]] <small>[[User talk:Verbal#top|<span style="color:Gray;">chat</span>]]</small></span> 17:06, 24 July 2010 (UTC) |
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:what X is doing is creating crude replacement for part of what the bot will do. Ive spoken with him, and I know he is working on another major project. (CheckUser rewrite) So this is not moot. All he is doing is creating a stopgap bot until someone as the real time to develop a fully functional and fully featured bot. So its not a resolution, but rather a finger in the [[Levee|dyke]]. [[User talk:Δ|ΔT <sub><sup><font color="darkred">The only constant</font></sup></sub>]] 17:10, 24 July 2010 (UTC) |
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::Which still makes this moot, as you cannot run a bot and it addresses the concerns of the SPI folks who want to ignore the community consensus. <span style="font-family:Papyrus">[[User:Verbal|<b style="color:#C72">Verbal</b>]] <small>[[User talk:Verbal#top|<span style="color:Gray;">chat</span>]]</small></span> 17:12, 24 July 2010 (UTC) |
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:::Again you are making claims that you know nothing about. This will not address all the concerns. All X! is doing is filling in step one of a dozen plus step process to replace the down bot and make the SPI process better. You do not know what X! is developing, nor do you know what the SPI team need, so how on earth can you say it addresses all the things they need? You cant. What ever happened to assuming some good faith? You obviously intent to hold my past over my head forever. As I have stated, Ive changed and want to move on, Ive been away from automated processes here on en.wp for close to two years, and Ive been above board on everything for the last year, how much longer will it take to show people that I just want to go back to gnoming and be left in peace? This is a very very limited scope project and has little chance for disruption, and is the perfect way to demonstrate those changes. What else do I need to do? [[User talk:Δ|ΔT <sub><sup><font color="darkred">The only constant</font></sup></sub>]] 17:25, 24 July 2010 (UTC) |
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::::Is this another example of the new leaf you've turned over? It has already caused too much disruption. <span style="font-family:Papyrus">[[User:Verbal|<b style="color:#C72">Verbal</b>]] <small>[[User talk:Verbal#top|<span style="color:Gray;">chat</span>]]</small></span> 17:32, 24 July 2010 (UTC) |
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::::{{ec}} What ∆ said. This is not a permanent replacement. I have no intentions of writing the full-fledged SPI bot. Rather, I whipped this one up in about 2 hours last night. The table is but one part of the SPI bot process. What more, ∆ has been the one who has been working on this for the past howeverlongitsbeen for all the SPI team. He knows what needs to be done. I don't. Any amateur coder could look at [http://code.google.com/p/mw-peachy/source/browse/trunk/Scripts/SPI.php the source] and find tons of stuff to improve. It is just barely stable. ∆'s bot is (probably) much more stable, and he is dedicated to maintaining it. <small>([[User:X!|<span style="color:gray">X!</span>]] · [[User talk:X!|<span style="color:gray">talk</span>]]) · [[Swatch Internet Time|@774]] · </small> 17:35, 24 July 2010 (UTC) |
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::::: (ee/c) This style doesn't help. I can confirm that [[User:X!]] is indeed working on the CU project, and I'm inclined to accept and agree with BC's suggestion that it's unlikely he would also be able to devote the time needed to write and fine tune an active bot for the SPI clerking process in any urgent way. Can we draw a calm line under this thread and return to the issues? [[user:FT2|FT2]] <sup><span style="font-style:italic">([[User_talk:FT2|Talk]] | [[Special:Emailuser/FT2|email]])</span></sup> 17:37, 24 July 2010 (UTC) (disclosure: I was asked to review this thread) |
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::::::What more, my time is much better spent going to a "certain other project" for the "certain user group" that is active at "certain sock blocking place"... <small>(I bet FT2 knows what I'm talking about)</small> <small>([[User:X!|<span style="color:gray">X!</span>]] · [[User talk:X!|<span style="color:gray">talk</span>]]) · [[Swatch Internet Time|@778]] · </small> 17:40, 24 July 2010 (UTC) |
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::::::Indeed; the next step is for an uninvolved admin to determine if there is consensus on whether ∆ can proceed. If not, the other options can be looked at. –[[user:xeno on an iPhone|<font face="verdana" color="black">'''xeno'''</font>]][[user talk:xeno|<font color="black"><sup>talk</sup></font>]] 17:48, 24 July 2010 (UTC) |
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:::::::BC has misrepresented me. X! is working on a stopgap solution. Great. Use that to find someone that has the communities tust (or at least hasn't repeatedly abused that trust). <span style="font-family:Papyrus">[[User:Verbal|<b style="color:#C72">Verbal</b>]] <small>[[User talk:Verbal#top|<span style="color:Gray;">chat</span>]]</small></span> 17:59, 24 July 2010 (UTC) |
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===Request for Closure=== |
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My analysis indicates several strong arguments for approving the bot, along with a few arguments for maintaining the status quo. I will qualify by stating that I have !voted "support". |
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Supporting Reasons (22 supports in my quick count): |
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*SPI clerking bot sorely needed |
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*User is willing to code it and maintain it |
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*User will be closely watched by CheckUsers and SPI Clerks |
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*Note: Many Checkusers and SPI clerks have expressed support of this proposal |
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*Bot will not be interacting with users |
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Opposing Reasons (10 opposes in my quick count) |
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*Past civility issues |
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*Past socking issues |
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*Bot could be coded to suppress evidence of additional socking |
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Conclusion: I believe the community has expressed a consensus toward the following: |
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"[[User:Δ]] is allowed to develop and operate a SPI Clerking bot. He is to continue conversing with the Clerks and CheckUsers to ensure this bot fits their needs. He will provide the bot's code upon request to any administrator, SPI Clerk, or CheckUser. All active remedies concerning [[User:Δ]] and [[User:Betacommand]] remain in effect." |
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Have I summed this up correctly? Can we close the thread? <span style="font-size:smaller;font-family:'arial bold',sans-serif;border:1px solid Black;">[[User:N419BH|<span style="color:Black;background:#FFD700;">N419</span>]][[User talk:N419BH|<span style="background:Black;color:#FFD700;">BH</span>]]</span> 18:07, 24 July 2010 (UTC) |
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:'''Strong oppose''' No, it shows that there is no consensus for lifting or relaxing the sanctions. BC/Delta should not be allowed to run this, or any other, bot. Also, the code should be supplied at the very least to any trusted user, and there should be a mechanism to show it is the same code as is running - independent of BC/D. There is no consensus at all for your wording..<span style="font-family:Papyrus">[[User:Verbal|<b style="color:#C72">Verbal</b>]] <small>[[User talk:Verbal#top|<span style="color:Gray;">chat</span>]]</small></span> 18:12, 24 July 2010 (UTC) |
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::By !vote count, it's a rather substantial majority. Not enough if this were a RfA, but this isn't one. By arguments presented, I'd say it's a clear consensus, though as I am not an admin and am furthermore involved I cannot close this. What's the worst he'll do? Screw up, make a mess, and one click of rollback along with a script will undo everything the bot ever did after a certain point. I think he's smart enough not to mess around on the page where all the CheckUsers hang out. <span style="font-size:smaller;font-family:'arial bold',sans-serif;border:1px solid Black;">[[User:N419BH|<span style="color:Black;background:#FFD700;">N419</span>]][[User talk:N419BH|<span style="background:Black;color:#FFD700;">BH</span>]]</span> 18:20, 24 July 2010 (UTC) |
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::: You're ignoring the rather large consensus that applied the sanctions and restrictions in the first place, and the fact that this editor is a known abuser of bots, editors, and multiple accounts, who claims above his tools could cause havoc and only he can be trusted. It's a shame he can't be trusted. <span style="font-family:Papyrus">[[User:Verbal|<b style="color:#C72">Verbal</b>]] <small>[[User talk:Verbal#top|<span style="color:Gray;">chat</span>]]</small></span> 19:22, 24 July 2010 (UTC) |
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:'''Support''' closing with proposed wording. Consensus is emerging. This isn't an RfA. It's AN. Consensus can happen at 69%. <small>([[User:X!|<span style="color:gray">X!</span>]] · [[User talk:X!|<span style="color:gray">talk</span>]]) · [[Swatch Internet Time|@820]] · </small> 18:40, 24 July 2010 (UTC) |
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::<s>'''No comment''' on the consensus, but the proposed wording is fine with me. <small>([[User:X!|<span style="color:gray">X!</span>]] · [[User talk:X!|<span style="color:gray">talk</span>]]) · [[Swatch Internet Time|@801]] · </small> 18:13, 24 July 2010 (UTC)</s> <small>original reason removed, final decision added</small> |
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::Third oppose reason should be discounted, it's fairly absurd. ''[[User:NativeForeigner|NativeForeigner]]'' <sup>[[User talk:NativeForeigner|Talk]]</sup>/<sub>[[Special:Contributions/NativeForeigner|Contribs]]</sub> 18:16, 24 July 2010 (UTC) |
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:::It was nevertheless expressed by several individuals, and therefore needs to be mentioned. <span style="font-size:smaller;font-family:'arial bold',sans-serif;border:1px solid Black;">[[User:N419BH|<span style="color:Black;background:#FFD700;">N419</span>]][[User talk:N419BH|<span style="background:Black;color:#FFD700;">BH</span>]]</span> 18:20, 24 July 2010 (UTC) |
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::::I agree, which is why I didn't mention anything about it. <small>([[User:X!|<span style="color:gray">X!</span>]] · [[User talk:X!|<span style="color:gray">talk</span>]]) · [[Swatch Internet Time|@820]] · </small> 18:40, 24 July 2010 (UTC) |
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:I agree that consensus seems to be emerging to allow Δ to proceed, but I see no reason to introduce new verbiage; the latest boxed exception seems clear enough. –[[user:xeno on an iPhone|<font face="verdana" color="black">'''xeno'''</font>]][[user talk:xeno|<font color="black"><sup>talk</sup></font>]] 18:36, 24 July 2010 (UTC) |
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* '''Comment''' - While agreeing the task (no-brainer) the conditions may be over-broad leading to concerns. '''But'''... the bot is not responding to arbitrary templates and edits on-wiki. It's patrolling for fixed events in the SPI subspace such as new cases or well-defined tasks required by templates, and commands given by SPI clerks and checkusers who monitor the bot's actions. It is not a bot that is likely to run rampant. |
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: So one option might be to simply agree that BC will be given an exclusion for the purposes of developing and testing ''this'' bot, and subject to the condition that its behaviors and substantial changes to its operations must be endorsed/requested by Checkusers and not just "his own whim". However if conditions are required or the existing ones relaxed, these might be worth a look: |
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<blockquote style="margin-left:50px"> |
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{{hidden begin |
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|title = Conditions suggestion |
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|titlestyle = background:lightgrey; |
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}} |
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Betacommand's (Δ's) conditions are amended to allow Δ to suggest and operate automated tools, under the following conditions: |
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# The '''exact''' expected behavior(s) of the bot are to be well defined on-wiki, so that the community can be clear '''exactly''' what actions the bot will take, and any automated or semi-automated decisions involved. |
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# The proposal must ensure that edits will be of a good quality and that user communications by the bot and responses to issues will be appropriate and timely, |
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# Code and specification must be kept free and open source (except as agreed for project benefit, in which case free and disclosed to all Bot Approval Group members), |
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# Variations to the specification or operation after approval (including changes by Δ to messages, templating, and user interaction) must be specified and well defined, and require approval on-wiki with at least 24 hours for consultation and consensus. |
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# Tools that require human supervision or decision-making must have their editing decisions supervised or directed by another user than Δ unless the community agrees. (An exception is more likely to be made for slow or infrequent rates, non-contentious, or clerical tasks, where supervision is largely mundane and does not require much judgment, or where risk is low.) |
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# Any new or modified tool (or use of an existing tool for a new task or in a modified manner) '''must''' be approved on a case-by-case basis on each occasion. (Modification here means any change to its functioning and actions on the wiki). Failure may lead to a revoke of this permission. |
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# Δ's civility conditions are unaffected. |
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{{hidden end}}</blockquote> |
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: [[user:FT2|FT2]] <sup><span style="font-style:italic">([[User_talk:FT2|Talk]] | [[Special:Emailuser/FT2|email]])</span></sup> 18:42, 24 July 2010 (UTC) |
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*Nothing wrong with letting this sit a bit more. AN has (quite pleasantly, actually) morphed into a lower traffic board. [[User:Protonk|Protonk]] ([[User talk:Protonk|talk]]) 19:09, 24 July 2010 (UTC) |
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::Agree; let's not unnecessarily rush to a conclusion. |
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::And do I understand correctly from the above that [[User:X!|<span style="color:gray">X!</span>]] is working on a bot to accomplish this same task? If so, doesn't that make this a moot conversation? [[User:ElKevbo|ElKevbo]] ([[User talk:ElKevbo|talk]]) 19:17, 24 July 2010 (UTC) |
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:::Only a subset and as a stopgap, but that should give enough leeway for a suitable candidate to be found - so yes it does make this moot. <span style="font-family:Papyrus">[[User:Verbal|<b style="color:#C72">Verbal</b>]] <small>[[User talk:Verbal#top|<span style="color:Gray;">chat</span>]]</small></span> 19:20, 24 July 2010 (UTC) |
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:::: Best don't assume any work or input on the SPI clerk side from [[User:X!]]. He hasn't committed to that and has his hands full on other rather more complex code-writing for the project. What he's done on this is a small part of what's needed and even on that it's only a crude stopgap. [[user:FT2|FT2]] <sup><span style="font-style:italic">([[User_talk:FT2|Talk]] | [[Special:Emailuser/FT2|email]])</span></sup> 19:25, 24 July 2010 (UTC) |
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::::: Verbal, we have said this many times. We <u>already</u> attempted to find a candidate 6 months ago. 6 months passed since then, no volunteers. Unless you want to call the 6-month period as "not enough time given" for discussion, it's time for you to drop that argument and move on. [[User:OhanaUnited|<b><font color="#0000FF">OhanaUnited</font></b>]][[User talk:OhanaUnited|<b><font color="green"><sup>Talk page</sup></font></b>]] 21:08, 24 July 2010 (UTC) |
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:::::: And you '''still''' haven't found anyone. It's time you drop the argument of lifting well justified and supported community applied restrictions imposed against a frequent abuser of editors, abuser of multiple accounts and abuser of bots and automated edits. X! has offered a temporary solution, while you try harder to replace the bot. <span style="font-family:Papyrus">[[User:Verbal|<b style="color:#C72">Verbal</b>]] <small>[[User talk:Verbal#top|<span style="color:Gray;">chat</span>]]</small></span> 21:24, 24 July 2010 (UTC) |
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:::::::The idea that someone would try to do something underhanded or untoward with an automated process while under the watchful eye of an entire team of people devoted to rooting out sneaky behaviour just strikes me as bizarre. And finding someone with enough personal time available that they are willing to donate towards developing complicated automated processes for areas that probably don't interest them is not easy. At this point, I think you have made your position quite clear - it may be best to step back to see if consensus has been achieved yet. –[[user:xeno|<font face="verdana" color="black">'''xeno'''</font>]][[user talk:xeno|<font color="black"><sup>talk</sup></font>]] 21:40, 24 July 2010 (UTC) |
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::::::::I agree that that angle is a bit of a red herring. Even if BC tried to hide an SPI against him for whatever reason, the initiator of that request would likely be at ANI a half second later, while other problematic behaviours would already be evident. FWIW, I would support FT2's conditions proposal though I remain uneasy with how easily past transgressions are overlooked because SPI wants a convenience. [[User:Resolute|Reso]][[User Talk:Resolute|lute]] 22:11, 24 July 2010 (UTC) |
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::::::::: We spend 6 months and you still think we didn't try hard enough to replace the bot? Not convincing at all. [[User:OhanaUnited|<b><font color="#0000FF">OhanaUnited</font></b>]][[User talk:OhanaUnited|<b><font color="green"><sup>Talk page</sup></font></b>]] 22:33, 24 July 2010 (UTC) |
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:::::::::: For what it's worth I spent a year trying to find someone to do some improvements to some code, and it isn't easy even if you ask everyone, all the time. On other tasks I'm going to have to teach myself coding because free coders who can implement these kinds of sophisticated tasks aren't hanging round waiting for the doorbell to ring and a year to learn will be quicker. It isn't necessarily easy to fill a competent coding gap. Low risk bot, close supervision, little harm due to ease of "pulling rug", close scrutiny, and well defined clerical tasks. [[user:FT2|FT2]] <sup><span style="font-style:italic">([[User_talk:FT2|Talk]] | [[Special:Emailuser/FT2|email]])</span></sup> 23:46, 24 July 2010 (UTC) |
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::::::::::This isn't about you, Ohana, but BC's history. The question is not "do we need this bot?", the question is "can we trust this user?" As I said, I'm willing to give him the chance under the right terms, but surely you can understand why people are uneasy given the history. [[User:Resolute|Reso]][[User Talk:Resolute|lute]] 02:41, 25 July 2010 (UTC) |
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::::::::: ''I remain uneasy with how easily past transgressions are overlooked because SPI wants a convenience'' - that very accurately describes my view although I fall on the side of not wanting to allow this proposal to succeed. We're compromising our principles for the sake of expediency and that's a terrible path for us to go down. [[User:ElKevbo|ElKevbo]] ([[User talk:ElKevbo|talk]]) 23:50, 24 July 2010 (UTC) |
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Betacommand does good work, I'd support lifting the ban entirely - it is easy enough to put it back if things don't work out. This sounds like a type of bot that has little chance of causing controversy, and so should be the perfect first step to removing the ban. [[User:Prodego|<font color="darkgreen">''Prodego''</font>]] <sup>[[User talk:Prodego|<font color="darkgreen">talk</font>]]</sup> 21:27, 24 July 2010 (UTC) |
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'''Support''' N419BH's motion to close, and their closing statement. I'd add that this gives Δ a clear way to demonstrate to the community that they have been "rehabilitated", without substantial risk to the community. If it works out, great: SPI benefit, the community benefits. If it doesn't work out, SPI suffer but the damage to the community is limited. [[User talk:TFOWR|<b style="color:#000">TFOW</b><b style="color:#F00">R</b>]] 22:39, 24 July 2010 (UTC) |
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*'''Support motion to close''' per N419BH. [[User:Beyond My Ken|Beyond My Ken]] ([[User talk:Beyond My Ken|talk]]) 23:21, 24 July 2010 (UTC) |
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*'''Support motion to close''' This covers all the supports and a lot of the opposes. --'''[[User:Rschen7754|Rs]][[User talk:Rschen7754|chen]][[Special:Contributions/Rschen7754|7754]]''' 01:12, 25 July 2010 (UTC) |
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*'''Support''' closing as specified. I really don;t see how it can cause us any harm. '''[[User:DGG| DGG]]''' ([[User talk:DGG| talk ]]) 04:30, 25 July 2010 (UTC) |
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*'''Support''' closure per N419BH. The need at SPI greatly outweighs any concern I may have that this user will try to do malicious things with his bot, especially with a whole team of sockpuppet investigators watching him. [[User:Kindzmarauli|Kindzmarauli]] ([[User talk:Kindzmarauli|talk]]) 05:52, 25 July 2010 (UTC) |
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*'''Support''' closure per TFOWR. [[User:OhanaUnited|<b><font color="#0000FF">OhanaUnited</font></b>]][[User talk:OhanaUnited|<b><font color="green"><sup>Talk page</sup></font></b>]] 06:10, 25 July 2010 (UTC) |
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*'''Strong oppose''' I see no reason to trust this user or to override community consensus. <span style="font-family:Papyrus">[[User:Verbal|<b style="color:#C72">Verbal</b>]] <small>[[User talk:Verbal#top|<span style="color:Gray;">chat</span>]]</small></span> 09:48, 25 July 2010 (UTC) |
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{{discussion-bottom}} |
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===Discussion on closure=== |
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So we couldn't discuss what is clearly a very contentious issue even for two days? [[User:ElKevbo|ElKevbo]] ([[User talk:ElKevbo|talk]]) 16:59, 25 July 2010 (UTC) |
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:: ''' OPPOSE''' This was closed far too quickly and I have invoked IAR to re-open. [[User:KoshVorlon|<span style="font:95% Trebuchet MS;color:darkred">'''KoshVorlon'''</span>]]<span style="font-size:90%;position:relative;top:-0.4em;">''[[User talk:KoshVorlon|'''Naluboutes''',Aeria Gloris]]''</span> 20:25, 25 July 2010 (UTC) |
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::'''SUPPORT''' This has been open for a good while and the close was good IMO, ignoring the rules won't alter consensus decisions. [[User:Off2riorob|Off2riorob]] ([[User talk:Off2riorob|talk]]) 20:29, 25 July 2010 (UTC) |
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Reverted reopening. There was very strong consensus for closing the issue, thus, reopening was going against consensus. <small>([[User:X!|<span style="color:gray">X!</span>]] · [[User talk:X!|<span style="color:gray">talk</span>]]) · [[Swatch Internet Time|@898]] · </small> 20:33, 25 July 2010 (UTC) |
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:It's obvious to me that those opposed to the issue were also implicitly opposed to prematurely closing the discussion. I don't understand what's wrong with allowing discussion and closing this before the discussion has run its course and everyone has had a chance to have their say is distasteful, unnecessary, and only adds further controversy to an already-controversial issue. (Personally, it's hard not to read it as a "fuck you, we don't care about your opinion" to the minority, but that's probably just me.) [[User:ElKevbo|ElKevbo]] ([[User talk:ElKevbo|talk]]) 20:42, 25 July 2010 (UTC) |
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::"I don't understand what's wrong with allowing discussion and closing this before the discussion has run its course and everyone has had a chance to have their say" - the discussion appeared to have run its course, with plenty of discussion, lots of people, and a clear conclusion visible. Who had not had a chance to have their say? More to the point, since [[WP:NOTAVOTE]], what is it that they could have said that would have induced many people to change their minds? Unless there is some suggestion of [[WP:CANVAS|canvassing]], I see no reason to believe that letting the discussion run for 7 days instead of 2 would make any difference whatsoever, except to increase the majority, which seemed the trend. If you want to try and persuade those who supported closure in these circumstances that they were wrong, well fine, but your statement above suggests you have nothing of substance to add to what has already been said. [[WP:Consensus|consensus]] does not require unanimity. [[User:Rd232|Rd232]] <sup>[[user talk:rd232|talk]]</sup> 21:16, 25 July 2010 (UTC) |
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::There was a very strong consensus as determined by an uninvolved administrator. The discussion ran for two days (see timestamps for the first post and the closing admin's post) and viewpoints were discussed. At this point continued debate is not going to change the consensus expressed. It's time to [[WP:STICK|drop the stick and back slowly away from the horse carcass]]. Also note no one is reprimanding you for your [[WP:AGF|Good Faith]] move to reopen the debate. It's simply a matter of the debate has run its course and a strong consensus has emerged. <span style="font-size:smaller;font-family:'arial bold',sans-serif;border:1px solid Black;">[[User:N419BH|<span style="color:Black;background:#FFD700;">N419</span>]][[User talk:N419BH|<span style="background:Black;color:#FFD700;">BH</span>]]</span> 20:48, 25 July 2010 (UTC) |
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::Honestly every decision where the opinions of the minority aren't incorporated could be interpreted as a big "fuck you" to the minority. Preferably we would be able to settle on some compromise solution, but that isn't the way the decision ended up. As for the 7 days vs 2, I agree. This should have left to sit longer. There wasn't too much of a rush. That said, it isn't the end of the world. [[User:Protonk|Protonk]] ([[User talk:Protonk|talk]]) 05:24, 26 July 2010 (UTC) |
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:::As a hypothetical, in what possible way could the minority view be practically incorporated in a compromise solution? [[User:Rd232|Rd232]] <sup>[[user talk:rd232|talk]]</sup> 08:13, 26 July 2010 (UTC) |
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::::Well, not very many ways in this scenario. I don't see "have ßC write the bot and someone else run it" as a compromise, but another compromise might have been to allow the bot to be run, but hold an RfC in 3 or 6 months time after the bot gets going proper to give some structured feedback. But if the minority view is "ßC never operates a bot again ever" then there are not many avenues to compromise. [[User:Protonk|Protonk]] ([[User talk:Protonk|talk]]) 16:34, 26 July 2010 (UTC) |
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Well, as an interested party who just stumbled upon this discussion, I would say there is one very important issue with this proposal that have not been addressed: Betacommmand/Delta's poor record in handling criticism over problems with his bots. Whenever a problem was brought to his attention, Delta would often ignore the complaint, or respond with a terse, condescending comment. It was for this exact problem which led to his first bot being taken from his control, & was a major reason for his now revoked community ban from Wikipedia. And having seen his practice of "trouting" Admins for not protecting images on the Front Page by slapping a large image on WP:AN ([[Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive215#Unprotected image on the Main Page Part VII|here]] is one example), I sincerely believe that he hasn't learned anything. I believe that complaints about problems with this bot -- both reasonable & bogus -- would simply lead to more WikiDrama & resurrection of [[Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Betacommand]]. Yes, he is available to write bots, & he probably is capable of writing quite good ones; however, I most emphatically believe that there are far more capable people who should run it due to his poor interpersonal skills. (And I'd like to point out that I'm very surprised that no one on either side of this discussion thought to mention this problem with Betacommand/Delta.) -- [[User:Llywrch|llywrch]] ([[User talk:Llywrch|talk]]) 02:46, 26 July 2010 (UTC) |
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::For the record, the very first oppose said "responding appropriately to criticism remains a significant challenge to BC/whatshisname." My understanding of the subsequent discussion was that on balance the view was that the need for an SPI bot is high enough to outweigh the risks; risks which are considered relatively low because it is a focussed task in a specific arena where visibility of any misdoings would be high. [[User:Rd232|Rd232]] <sup>[[user talk:rd232|talk]]</sup> 08:05, 26 July 2010 (UTC) |
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*Huh? I'm pretty sure that most people in this discussion recognize this as a primary problem w/ ßC--after all, if he didn't have a communication problem vis a vis bots, we wouldn't need an AN thread just to get the BAG thread going. The whole decision has been a balance between dealing with what problems may crop up against the obvious good which will come of ßC coding bots again. That's assuming you don't think he's changed. [[User:Protonk|Protonk]] ([[User talk:Protonk|talk]]) 03:00, 26 July 2010 (UTC) |
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*: Will I be allowed to say "I told you so" when he reverts to his true nature, getting Wikipedia volunteers at each other's throats over his antics, or quitting because of him? As badly as a coder is arguably needed here, the price for his services is too high & it will take an appalling amount of time to fix the damage that resulted. BTW, once word gets out that the descision to let BC/Delta to run a bot again was closed after two days, the 20-odd folks who supported this will learn what grief is; there is still '''that much''' ill will against him. -- [[User:Llywrch|llywrch]] ([[User talk:Llywrch|talk]]) 04:28, 26 July 2010 (UTC) |
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*::Feel free. I'm going to [[WP:AGF]] and see if he can program something awesome. Note that this bot doesn't have to talk to anyone, it's just clerking. Also he's been unbanned for a year. <span style="font-size:smaller;font-family:'arial bold',sans-serif;border:1px solid Black;">[[User:N419BH|<span style="color:Black;background:#FFD700;">N419</span>]][[User talk:N419BH|<span style="background:Black;color:#FFD700;">BH</span>]]</span> 04:38, 26 July 2010 (UTC) |
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*'''Oppose early close''' Per [[User_talk:Rd232#ANI_Betacomand_discussion]], the closer has ignored people who didn't specifically ''vote'', which is incorrect as I shouldn't have to remind anyone here, and has said there was only one oppose to closing - clearly the at least 9 other opposes should have been included. The discussion should be reopened and run for a reasonable time (at least 5 days). <span style="font-family:Papyrus">[[User:Verbal|<b style="color:#C72">Verbal</b>]] <small>[[User talk:Verbal#top|<span style="color:Gray;">chat</span>]]</small></span> 10:17, 26 July 2010 (UTC) |
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**"he closer has ignored people who didn't specifically ''vote''" - no I didn't, I said " 6 explicit supports for N419BH's motion to close + 4 implicit supports (for closure), against 1 explicit oppose and 1 "let's wait a bit" (>12 hrs before my close)". I didn't count supporters/opposers of the motion itself (for which there was a clear majority), unless they commented in the Closure section. Clearly, the "implicit" part directly contradicts your claim. [[User:Rd232|Rd232]] <sup>[[user talk:rd232|talk]]</sup> 11:11, 26 July 2010 (UTC) |
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Comment: part of the reason I closed the discussion was because it had got quite messy, the discussion was no longer moving forward, and the trend was clearly drifting towards a support for the proposal. The only thing I can suggest at this point is that possibly an RFC on this issue would be a better way to handle its complexity and volume of opinion than an AN thread. Whether it's worth doing ''now'' is another question, but I would personally support creating one if the general view was that it was worth the effort, because of the controversy associated with this case. At least, it would permit a re-opening of the issue in an organised way, summarising previously made points - much better than merely re-opening the current [[WP:TLDR|TL:DR]] thread, which I cannot see as producing any other outcome than the current one. It might seem a lot of effort for a bot approval, but clearly feelings are strong on the matter, so it could be justifiable. (In case it isn't clear, I'm imagining the possible RFC on a standalone page, with clearly stated positions and proposals (like the BLP RFC but hopefully shorter!), not just a new thread with an RFC tag in it.) [[User:Rd232|Rd232]] <sup>[[user talk:rd232|talk]]</sup> 11:11, 26 July 2010 (UTC) |
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:rd232 is right. Additional discussion is not going to change community consensus. It's time to drop the [[WP:STICK]]. <span style="font-size:smaller;font-family:'arial bold',sans-serif;border:1px solid Black;">[[User:N419BH|<span style="color:Black;background:#FFD700;">N419</span>]][[User talk:N419BH|<span style="background:Black;color:#FFD700;">BH</span>]]</span> 13:18, 26 July 2010 (UTC) |
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::@llywrch: I can't speak for anyone else, but I commented with a "weak support" to allow Betacommand to do '''''this one task''''', and I am '''''very''''' aware of his past history, specifically his problem with dealing with criticism and complaints; also, I consistently commented in the past in favor of various sanctions against him. In this case, his "audience" will be a very tightly focused one and the task quite specific, so I didn't rate that particular factor highly in reaching my judgment. I '''''assume''''' that some others who !voted "support" made their own evaluations on a similar basis; that is, I don't think that all the "support" comments were coming from people who were in the "pro-Betacommand come hell or high water" camp in the past.<p>As for the close -- the trend was clear, I suppose it could have sat around for another couple of days, but it was likely that all it would attract would be more "yes it is"/"no it isn't"-type discussion. We'd finished the argument phase, and had descended into the "automatic gainsaying" phase. ''''Close was good.''' [[User:Beyond My Ken|Beyond My Ken]] ([[User talk:Beyond My Ken|talk]]) 13:39, 26 July 2010 (UTC) |
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:::One other note: I fully understand that the ardent opposition to this is based on the "fool me 47 times, take a hike" theory, which I actually agree with, but it seems to me that '''''if''''' Betacommand has turned over a new leaf, this is an excellent way to find out, in a very sharply delineated circumstance. I will reiterate my concern that this baby step not be considered to be a mere ''pro forma'' action to give Beta automatic entree back into the community: instead, each new step needs to be incremental, and be as closely considered as this one was. [[User:Beyond My Ken|Beyond My Ken]] ([[User talk:Beyond My Ken|talk]]) 13:46, 26 July 2010 (UTC) |
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::::I ''didn't'' !vote ''per se''; I did, however, !vote supporting the proposal to close the discussion. |
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::::* I didn't !vote in the original proposal because I was so close to neutral. I ''do'' remember one at least of the many shit-storms arising from Beta and bots, and my memory was clouding my ability to make an objective decision based on ''now'', not ''then''. |
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::::* I !voted in the closing proposal because - frankly - it reflected consensus very well, and - if I'm honest - reflected how I should have !voted earlier. |
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::::By the time the close proposal was made few if any new faces were commenting. We were rehashing arguments already made, and I don't honestly believe many new faces or new arguments were going to emerge. [[User talk:TFOWR|<b style="color:#000">TFOW</b><b style="color:#F00">R</b>]] 14:00, 26 July 2010 (UTC) |
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::::: The issue wasn't "fool me 47 times, take a hike"; the issue was that most of the blocks issued to BC/Delta were quickly undone & defended with the rationale, "he's doing important work, so [[WP:DICK|how he acts]] doesn't matter". Had a few of the early blocks been left to run their course, I believe there is a chance they would have served as a clue stick & encouraged him to change. Instead, a number of Wikipedians jumped to defend him -- some citing [[WP:AGF]], as one has done above -- only for BC/Delta to become convinced he had a blank check to behave however he wanted. And as I pointed out above, the way he handles a trivial issue -- promptly protecting images used on the Front Page -- shows he '''has not''' changed. Any Admin who discovers BC/Delta's bot malfunctioning & in need of a block knows that he will lose a sizable chunk of his life in the resulting debate, & will avoid that hassle simply by looking the other way. -- [[User:Llywrch|llywrch]] ([[User talk:Llywrch|talk]]) 19:55, 26 July 2010 (UTC) |
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::::::While I think the bulk of your comment has a lot of merit (we do make obvious carte blanche for some editors and they behave accordingly), leaving unprotected images on the main page is not a trivial issue. It is a security hole through which any person (usually the unprotected images aren't even semi-protected) could arbitrarily insert content onto the front page of one of the biggest websites in the world. The solution is trivial: write a bot which accepts a queue of images, uploads them locally and protects them before pushing them to the main page, but the problem is not. But more generally, I wonder how your assessment holds up a year after ßC's block and return? He hasn't been allowed to operate outside a pretty limited sphere of activities and he certainly hasn't been operating a bot. Does this sound at all like the scenario you describe? [[User:Protonk|Protonk]] ([[User talk:Protonk|talk]]) 20:21, 26 July 2010 (UTC) |
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:::::::: It's one thing to monitor for security holes, & post notices on WP:AN about them; it's another to insist that to properly convey the message a large, page-filling image of a trout must be used. And when the Admin handling the chore points out that the security hole existed for an unavoidable moment while the problem was being handled, wouldn't the proper response be to say something along the lines of, "Okay thanks"? rather than (1) to be unnecessarily defensive about monitoring for unprotected images, & (2) complain that the Admin wasn't handling the chore in the proper way? (That is the impression that [[Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive215#Unprotected image on the Main Page Part VII|this incident]], which I linked to above, left me.) I'm not the only one to have thought the incident could have been handled far more gracefully: another Admin closed the thread with these thoughtful words: "I just want to clarify that ''I do not think anyone updating the main page is doing a bad job.'' Hope no one took it that way." (emphasis original) I'm not looking to hassle BC/Delta; I've got far better things to do with the time I can spend on Wikipedia. I sincerely doubt he has learned anything from being blocked & then returning, not even that there is a problem, & nothing that I've seen has convinced me otherwise. And I still stand by my demand above: if you let him run a bot the way he wants to run it, while I won't stop you, I want to be able to say "I told you so." Maybe even in the same size of space that his trout image takes up. -- [[User:Llywrch|llywrch]] ([[User talk:Llywrch|talk]]) 21:33, 28 July 2010 (UTC) |
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*Proposal: Per the comments above, an actual RfC should be run to determine whether this should go ahead or not. The close was improper. <span style="font-family:Papyrus">[[User:Verbal|<b style="color:#C72">Verbal</b>]] <small>[[User talk:Verbal#top|<span style="color:Gray;">chat</span>]]</small></span> 14:07, 26 July 2010 (UTC) |
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**How exactly was it improper? [[WP:PEACOCK|Say ''why'' is was improper, not just that it ''was'' improper]]. <small>([[User:X!|<span style="color:gray">X!</span>]] · [[User talk:X!|<span style="color:gray">talk</span>]]) · [[Swatch Internet Time|@641]] · </small> 14:22, 26 July 2010 (UTC) |
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**(ec) If you want to [[WP:STICK|continue beating the dead horse]] and open a RfC go right ahead and do that. There was strong support for the motion to close. Note the motion allows a SPI bot only, no other bots are allowed. Continued discussion is not going to change community consensus. This bot is a good bot for Beta/Delta to run specifically because it does not need to interact with users. People are capable of change if we give them the chance (See [[User:Jack Merridew]]). Furthermore, the only people Delta's bot will interact with have expressed their support of Beta/Delta running said bot. <span style="font-size:smaller;font-family:'arial bold',sans-serif;border:1px solid Black;">[[User:N419BH|<span style="color:Black;background:#FFD700;">N419</span>]][[User talk:N419BH|<span style="background:Black;color:#FFD700;">BH</span>]]</span> 14:26, 26 July 2010 (UTC) |
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Comment: FWIW, it occurs to me that I hadn't actually explicitly said that I have no horse in this heated race at all; and with the contesting of the closure, I guess it's worth saying. I haven't (AFAIR...) interacted with beta/delta, commented on or otherwise had anything to do with the bot saga, and I have no particular interest in SPI. I purely happened by and saw a thread that looked like it was ready to close. [[User:Rd232|Rd232]] <sup>[[user talk:rd232|talk]]</sup> 14:50, 26 July 2010 (UTC) |
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:Thanks. I don't think that anyone is accusing you or anyone else of a conflict of interest and if it seems like I have then please accept my apologies as that was not my intent! [[User:ElKevbo|ElKevbo]] ([[User talk:ElKevbo|talk]]) 16:06, 26 July 2010 (UTC) |
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Although I am one of the primary instigators of this "Whoa, closed too soon!" discussion, I do not support an RFC or further action. I think the point has been made even if it hasn't been received. And to be completely clear, the point is not that the discussion was closed with a decision contrary to my opinion but that it was closed so quickly. I agree that it is unlikely that the majority opinion would change if the discussion were open longer but that's not the point. The point is that process matters and allowing everyone time to have their say - even if it may not necessarily change things - is important. It's important because voicing our opinion is the only power that some of us have and denying people that ability is damaging in so many ways that I don't really know where to begin. To put it simply, there are many benefits and very few detriments to allowing conversation to continue whereas closing discussion prematurely has few benefits and many detriments. Process matters and it saddens me that some people don't, won't, or can't understand that. [[User:ElKevbo|ElKevbo]] ([[User talk:ElKevbo|talk]]) 16:06, 26 July 2010 (UTC) |
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:[[Wikipedia:Bots/Requests for approval/Δbot]] has been open for public comment since 12 July (and indeed is still open for comment, if anyone feels the need - the exception granted above does not necessarily mean that the bot will be approved). At the present time, only the slightest of exceptions has been made to the existing community-imposed restrictions. The bot is being written and operated in a very secluded corner of the wiki on request from users [[caveat emptor|who are aware of the history]]. Any further bot requests from Δ will require additional community discussion, and any suggestions as to how that future potential discussion should be conducted are welcome (perhaps at [[WT:BRFA]] or [[WT:BAG]]). –[[user:xeno|<font face="verdana" color="black">'''xeno'''</font>]][[user talk:xeno|<font color="black"><sup>talk</sup></font>]] 16:09, 26 July 2010 (UTC) |
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::*'''Outside Comment''' Must we have a discussion on whether or not to close the earlier discussion?--[[user:White Shadows|<font style="color:#191970">'''White Shadows'''</font>]] <sup>[[user talk:White Shadows|<font style="color:#DC143C">'''It's a wonderful life'''</font>]]</sup> 15:10, 27 July 2010 (UTC) |
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=== Discussion on discussion of closure === |
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I think that the discussion of the discussion is obviously flawed... i mean, look at it! It's not even split into support and oppose sections! <small>([[User:X!|<span style="color:gray">X!</span>]] · [[User talk:X!|<span style="color:gray">talk</span>]]) · [[Swatch Internet Time|@845]] · </small> 19:17, 26 July 2010 (UTC) |
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: Heh. :) -- [[User:Llywrch|llywrch]] ([[User talk:Llywrch|talk]]) 19:29, 26 July 2010 (UTC) |
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: Well how about the below? [[User:Rd232|Rd232]] <sup>[[user talk:rd232|talk]]</sup> 21:33, 26 July 2010 (UTC) |
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====Proposal==== |
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Further discussion to take place at [[Wikipedia:Bots/Requests for approval/Δbot]] as required. Anyone who has anything new to say, or merely wants to express their opinion, can do so there. [[User:Rd232|Rd232]] <sup>[[user talk:rd232|talk]]</sup> 21:33, 26 July 2010 (UTC) |
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=====Support===== |
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=====Oppose===== |
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*The BRFA should be a place where people can make technical comments or requests, not serve as a forum for people invested in the social issues of the request (either pro or con). It is best to just let things peter out. No need for more closure sections or new comment sections. If someone has a technical comment or concern, they can go to the BRFA. Otherwise it doesn't help to rerun the discussion at another venue. [[User:Protonk|Protonk]] ([[User talk:Protonk|talk]]) 22:36, 26 July 2010 (UTC) |
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:Umm... community comments and social issues is exactly what BRFA is for. From [[WP:BOTPOL]]: "The decision to approve a request should take into account the requirements above, '''relevant policies and guidelines''', and discussion of the request." (emphasis added) AN is for discussing bans and restrictions. BRFA is for discussing the social issues with a bot. <small>([[User:X!|<span style="color:gray">X!</span>]] · [[User talk:X!|<span style="color:gray">talk</span>]]) · [[Swatch Internet Time|@088]] · </small> 01:06, 27 July 2010 (UTC) |
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::Then this whole discussion should have happened at the BFRA. So let me rephrase. BFRA is for discussing social issues with a bot, but this whole discussion will have been a waste of time if we just go on to the BFRA and recapitulate the past discussion for the sake of doing so. [[User:Protonk|Protonk]] ([[User talk:Protonk|talk]]) 03:00, 27 July 2010 (UTC) |
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:::This discussion has been determining whether there is consensus to lift/relax or provide an exemption from community-imposed restrictions. Now that this has been done, the BRFA can ''potentially'' be approved. It won't ''necessarily'' be, and social aspects can still be discussed there if there is some new information or argument that has yet to be presented... And for what's it's worth, this proposal about the proposal about the discussion about the discussion was a bit of a light-hearted joke, (I think). –[[user:xeno|<font face="verdana" color="black">'''xeno'''</font>]][[user talk:xeno|<font color="black"><sup>talk</sup></font>]] 13:24, 27 July 2010 (UTC) |
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::::Actually the proposal was serious, in noting that there ''is'' an appropriate outlet for new information relevant to the issue, should any arise. The ''format'' was prompted by the preceding jokey exchange, which was possibly unwise... [[User:Rd232|Rd232]] <sup>[[user talk:rd232|talk]]</sup> 16:58, 27 July 2010 (UTC) |
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:: BRFA is intended to discuss the policy and technical aspects of the bot itself - the restrictions on any editor should not be taking place there. A the conceptual aspects of a bot can be approved there, but the actual implementation depends in this case on restrictions being lifted. I can't say I saw a lot of people saying "yes, lift". ([[User talk:Bwilkins|<font style="font-variant:small-caps">talk→</font>]]<span style="border:1px solid black;">''' [[User:Bwilkins|BWilkins]] '''</span>[[Special:Contributions/Bwilkins|<font style="font-variant:small-caps">←track</font>]]) 13:31, 27 July 2010 (UTC) |
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::: You should look again, because that's what the consensus was, for a '''''tightly-focused''''' exemption on the restrictions. I believe ArbCom is well on its way to approving that as well, if they haven't already. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Amendment#Request_to_amend_prior_case:_Betacommand_2] [[User:Beyond My Ken|Beyond My Ken]] ([[User talk:Beyond My Ken|talk]]) 14:07, 27 July 2010 (UTC) |
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*Oppose, incorrect venue to discuss community sanctions and editor restrictions. <span style="font-family:Papyrus">[[User:Verbal|<b style="color:#C72">Verbal</b>]] <small>[[User talk:Verbal#top|<span style="color:Gray;">chat</span>]]</small></span> 15:07, 27 July 2010 (UTC) |
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:''Moved from [[WP:AN]]''. |
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== Arbitration Enforcement Request notification == |
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Please be aware of [[Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement#Δ]]. [[Special:Contributions/67.80.250.138|67.80.250.138]] ([[User talk:67.80.250.138|talk]]) 08:36, 9 August 2010 (UTC) |
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: Over there, there's the line "This seems evidently stale, given that the rules have been superceded by the new Arbcom motion, which has explicitly authorized Δbot." Where is that action recorded? Who was responsible for it? This goes beyond the [[Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee/Noticeboard/Archive 4#Provisional suspension of community ban: Betacommand]], with "(iii) prohibited from operating bots or running automated scripts of whatever nature". What seems to have happened is that Betacommand, who has somehow been released from his community ban, Arbcom ban, sockpuppet ban, and bot ban, is apparently being allowed a new identity and is running a 'bot again. And, as usual, he immediately screwed up and the 'bot did something unwanted. Also {{user|Δ}}, the new identity of Betacommand, is not a change of name, it's a new account. So the long block history of Betacommand {{user|Betacommand}} and the mentoring restrictions [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Betacommand&oldid=372039843] aren't associated with the account. --[[User:Nagle|John Nagle]] ([[User talk:Nagle|talk]]) 18:19, 9 August 2010 (UTC) |
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::Found the actual Arbcom motion.[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Amendment&oldid=376387981#Motion]. Betacommand, previously blocked for using sockpuppets, is being allowed to use a 'bot to edit records associated with sockpuppet investigations. What's going on here? --[[User:Nagle|John Nagle]] ([[User talk:Nagle|talk]]) 18:28, 9 August 2010 (UTC) |
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:::See [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Clarification&oldid=377040724] for some background on the "account swap" and the above [[#Relaxing or rescinding of community-imposed restrictions on User:Betacommand / Δ]]. –[[user:xeno|<font face="verdana" color="black">'''xeno'''</font>]][[user talk:xeno|<font color="black"><sup>talk</sup></font>]] 18:34, 9 August 2010 (UTC) |
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::: John, you're just fulfilling my prediction that there'd be blowback once news of this new ruling leaked out to the larger Wikipedia community. Y'know, if people worked half as hard to retain some of our truly valuable editors as they did to bring this person back & running a bot, Wikipedia would be a far more collegial & pleasant environment to work in. (Well, maybe not; but I for one would be half as cynical.) -- [[User:Llywrch|llywrch]] ([[User talk:Llywrch|talk]]) 21:48, 9 August 2010 (UTC) |
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:::: I seriously don't know what you are all worried about. He will be banned within a year - you only have to look at his contribs to see he has not changed one bit, certainly not in personality or community skills, and doubtfully in coding or operations skills. His spelling has even got worse, if that's possible. His choice of the incremental change symbol as his new username is deliciously ironic tbh, as in many math problems, it by necessity, becomes a vanishingly small quantity. He's already breached many of his conditions in subtle ways, he is already interpreting his release conditions in ways others had never imagined, and is unsurprisingly calling WP:HARASSment at every turn. Sound familiar? The way he acheived his rename was, shall we say, creative, and his template announcing it on his userpage is just a very typical flip off of the community, it was all very 2008 watching that episode unfold. He just recently 'accidentaly' editted using his bot account, he is running all sorts of god knows what scripts at god knows what speeds to help 'cleanup' the pedia, supposedly checking all his work. And when acting like a human and interacting with other humans, particularly the ones asking him to do stuff he doesn't like, he still has all the same ... skills ... he had when booted out. The only thing I worry about is that nobody is bothering to monitor him. In my first time checking on him in months when he came back, to my total lack of surprise, I found on the first page of his recent 50 contribs an example of him reverting 'vandalism' that wasn't WP:VANDALISM. Again, sound familiar? I didn't bother pointing it out at the time, everyone was just jolly glad they now had someone to code a clerking bot and I didn't want to spoil the party getting all Jeff butterfly Goldblum in people's grilles, and there certainly seemed to be no appetite for reminiscing in that thread and comparing our memories with the all new 2010 model. Even with a fancy new name, and a new zest for getting on and improving the pedia (he says that a lot now it seems), he's a dead man walking tbh, and it's really time that the people who already know this just took a chill pill, and let his supporters worry about what he's going to mess up until he's done for again. Unbanning him is hardly the biggest mistake this new arbcom has made, but it's going to be Top 5 I reckon, come election time. [[User:MickMacNee|MickMacNee]] ([[User talk:MickMacNee|talk]]) 00:17, 10 August 2010 (UTC) |
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::::: If you have the evidence MickMacNee, email it to me & if it checks out I'll drop the hammer on him myself. I've pissed off more powerful Wikipedians than him & his enablers, & I'm still around. -- [[User:Llywrch|llywrch]] ([[User talk:Llywrch|talk]]) 04:59, 10 August 2010 (UTC) |
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::::::All the info you need is at the abovementioned [[Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement#Δ]]. [[Special:Contributions/67.80.250.138|67.80.250.138]] ([[User talk:67.80.250.138|talk]]) 01:02, 12 August 2010 (UTC) |
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::::::: You mean [[Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive66#.CE.94|this]]? Not only has it been dealt with, it doesn't match the allegations MickMacNee made above. -- [[User:Llywrch|llywrch]] ([[User talk:Llywrch|talk]]) 15:45, 13 August 2010 (UTC) |
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== New unauthorized bot-like activity. == |
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Here's some new bot-like activity.[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Rick_McCrank&diff=prev&oldid=378641360]. |
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Some program is being used to turn '''<nowiki>http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Rick_McCrank&diff=prev&oldid=378641360</nowiki>''' into '''<nowiki><ref name=autogenerated2>[http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0566898/ Rick McCrank]</ref></nowiki>'''. This is well-intentioned, but inept. A reference to IMDB which previously looked bad has been turned into something that looks better, but isn't quite right. The reference text is just "Rick McCrank", and doesn't mention the source, IMDB, at all. There's obviously some automation here, since the name "autogenerated" appears. The edit comment is simply "Cleanup". |
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Other edits include adding and removing whitespace, and converting some whitespace to <nowiki> </nowiki>[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Vehicle_registration_plates_of_Alabama&diff=prev&oldid=378639824]. Most of these changes are unnecessary, such as converting "==Title==" to "== Title ==". That just runs up edit counts and generates big diffs to no purpose. |
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Here's a big deletion [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Znojmo&action=historysubmit&diff=375375221&oldid=372700188], where the "77 Wonders of Znojmo" were deleted with the deceptive edit comment of "Cleanup". There, it looks like some links to nonexistent images triggered the deletion of a sizable block of text. |
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This is all on Betacommand's user account {{user|Δ}}, not his bot account. Please check the contributions for other damage. Thanks. --[[User:Nagle|John Nagle]] ([[User talk:Nagle|talk]]) 19:20, 13 August 2010 (UTC) |
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: Reviewing Delta's edit history, if he's editing with a bot it's a very slow one: changes are being made at a rate of once every several minutes, versuses the objectionable several edits every minute. However, a look at his edit history revealed [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:%CE%94/monobook.js&diff=378447678&oldid=373352964 these problematic edits]. Exactly why does he need these configurations to Twinkle? I have reverted these changes & protected the page until an explanation in satisfactory detail is provided. (In other words, '''document your changes'''.) -- [[User:Llywrch|llywrch]] ([[User talk:Llywrch|talk]]) 20:25, 13 August 2010 (UTC) |
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Betacommand's prior editing restrictions, [[Wikipedia:Arbitration_Committee/Noticeboard/Archive_4#Provisional_suspension_of_community_ban:_Betacommand|listed in full here]], contains the following: |
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:"2: For one year, you are ... (iii) prohibited from running automated scripts of whatever nature" |
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This motion was carried 11 July 2009. It has now expired. If you'd like, you can ask for an amendment to Betacommand's restrictions to indefinitely prevent him from using automated tools, but the restriction on him using automated tools placed 11 July 2009 has expired. The [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Amendment&oldid=376387981#Further_discussion amendment to these restrictions] did not contain language extending the ban on automated edits. Betacommand is within his rights to use automated editing tools. [[User:Δ/monobook.js]] needs to be unprotected, pending clarification (if desired) from ArbCom. --[[User:Hammersoft|Hammersoft]] ([[User talk:Hammersoft|talk]]) 20:34, 13 August 2010 (UTC) |
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Hmm .. the first edits groups some references. That seems .. functional (the chosen name could indeed be chosen better). The second repairs 'xx inch' to 'xx&nbsp;inch'. Which is making it displaying correctly and consistently, seems like a good change (and adds some other whitespace). The third one deletes more than it says, indeed; the basis does the same as the second, plus it deletes an, what seems to me, an inappropriate listing. In basis I do not see anything wrong with those three edits, John Nagle. An exception might be that the restrictions stop Δ from using an automated script (which indeed does part of the edits), but it seems that that restriction is gone. Where is the problem if that latter is true? --[[User:Beetstra|Dirk Beetstra]] <sup>[[User_Talk:Beetstra|<span style="color:#0000FF;">T</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Beetstra|<span style="color:#0000FF;">C</span>]]</sup> 20:59, 13 August 2010 (UTC) |
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:BC/D is still under the community-imposed restrictions listed at [[Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Betacommand_2#Other_restrictions]]/[[Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Betacommand_2#Community-imposed_restrictions]] which have not been rescinded.. No comment as to whether anything applies here. –[[user:xeno on an iPhone|<font face="verdana" color="black">'''xeno'''</font>]][[user talk:xeno|<font color="black"><sup>talk</sup></font>]] 21:38, 13 August 2010 (UTC) |
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:*This is a case where community imposed sanctions and ArbCom are not in concert. For example, ArbCom instituted a 4 edit per 10 minute throttle. That throttle has expired, but the community one hasn't? I should think ArbCom's decision outweighs the community's. --[[User:Hammersoft|Hammersoft]] ([[User talk:Hammersoft|talk]]) 21:46, 13 August 2010 (UTC) |
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::*The ArbCom motion specifically <u>suspended</u> the community '''ban''' on Betacommand, not superceded it. If required, I could find the discussions where BC attempted and failed to have his ban lifted prior to his approaching ArbCom. Therefore, if folk wish to wikilawyer this issue, it would be reasonable for an admin to re-instate the community ban - now that the ArbCom motion had expired - and invite consensus for its lifting. BC/Delta may be wise to consider this perspective, in that a resumption of the behaviours and issues that lead to the indefinite ban may more quickly result in it being re-instated since there has been no consensus to have it lifted - merely put aside by an ArbCom motion. [[User:LessHeard vanU|LessHeard vanU]] ([[User talk:LessHeard vanU|talk]]) 22:07, 13 August 2010 (UTC) |
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:::*I agree with your comment regarding the perspective. However, this approach also leaves Betacommand in a permanent grey area; effectively, he must maintain himself as if under all restrictions else face re-institution of the restrictions. Honestly, I think ArbCom needs to step forward and make it very clear what Betacommand can and can not do at this point, and what activities would invite review. I think at this point nobody knows for sure, much less Betacommand himself. --[[User:Hammersoft|Hammersoft]] ([[User talk:Hammersoft|talk]]) 22:49, 13 August 2010 (UTC) |
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::*LessHeard vanU is correct. The community ban is still in effect (which was discussed at length by ArbCom in both actions). ArbCom simply carved a specific exception into the community ban. If this is outside of the exception, it should be hashed out by the community. I believe ArbCom made this clear, and if it was not clear, I hope it is now. [[User:Cool Hand Luke|Cool Hand]] ''[[User talk:Cool Hand Luke|Luke]]'' 04:38, 14 August 2010 (UTC) |
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Llywrch, did you have a reason to believe that the rest of the content you removed was also violating the restrictions, or was there another reason for removing ~48000 bytes of his monobook, most of which was unrelated to twinkle? I just noticed that on his talk page, you stated, "It is not my responsibility to understand the code, but it is yours to document it." - I'm sorry, '''''what'''''? It is most definitely your responsiblity to understand it. A community sanction about automated tools does '''''not''''' give you the right to blunder about in an area you haven't taken the time to understand or seek assistance with, arbitrarily deleting whatever you feel like just because you can. Can you explain the reasoning behind your decision not to ask a neutral user what to delete, please? [[User:Ale_jrb|<font color="green">A</font><small><font color="green">le_Jrb</font>]]</small><sup>[[User_talk:Ale_jrb|<font color="blue">talk</font>]]</sup> 21:45, 13 August 2010 (UTC) |
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:: No, it is '''his''' responsibility to show he is not violating any of the restrictions placed on him. He provides the comments needed, he gets the ability to edit the file back. And one does '''not''' need Twinkle to edit Wikipedia. -- [[User:Llywrch|llywrch]] ([[User talk:Llywrch|talk]]) 21:51, 13 August 2010 (UTC) |
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:::No, it is '''your''' responsiblilty to understand what he is showing you, and if you don't, seek clarification. It is: a) obvious that he has not ''used'' twinkle recently, even if it is installed, and b) obvious which parts of the monobook were twinkle, and should thus be removed if that's what you're doing. If it isn't obvious to you, then you must get someone to help you. You don't crack a walnut with a sledgehammer because you don't know how to use the walnut-opener - you find someone who does. Please reverse your actions, and I will then remove the relevant part of the monobook so the discussion regarding that can proceed. [[User:Ale_jrb|<font color="green">A</font><small><font color="green">le_Jrb</font>]]</small><sup>[[User_talk:Ale_jrb|<font color="blue">talk</font>]]</sup> 22:01, 13 August 2010 (UTC) |
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:I don't think delta's monobook should have been touched by someone that doesn't understand what it even was. I say it should be unlocked and replaced and delta should be allowed to simply explain what it is. [[User:Off2riorob|Off2riorob]] ([[User talk:Off2riorob|talk]]) 21:47, 13 August 2010 (UTC) |
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I'm unsure what the point of this action was. What part of the monobook.js allowed for automated edits? What specific restrictions were the edits to the monobook.js in violation of? Also, what part of "''[[WP:ADMIN|Administrators are expected to respond promptly and civilly to queries about their Wikipedia-related conduct and administrator actions and to justify them when needed]]''" describes your statement that ßC needs to justify the changes then he "gets" to use the file? [[User:Protonk|Protonk]] ([[User talk:Protonk|talk]]) 22:17, 13 August 2010 (UTC) |
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I've unprotected. The removed portions of the monobook.js that I recognize (apart from Twinkle) are not related to automated editing, and the portions I don't recognize look like "ease of use" features rather than automated scripts. --[[User:Carnildo|Carnildo]] ([[User talk:Carnildo|talk]]) 23:17, 13 August 2010 (UTC) |
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== Let's just lock him up and throw away the key == |
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{{Collapse top|This is tiresome. The admin action has been reversed. If you think that [[User:Llywrch]] committed some unforgivable sin then there are other venues to explore. [[User:Protonk|Protonk]] ([[User talk:Protonk|talk]]) 01:13, 14 August 2010 (UTC)}} |
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When I discovered that [[User:Llywrch|Llywrch]] had protected [[User:Δ/monobook.js]], I posted to his talk page against that action [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ALlywrch&action=historysubmit&diff=378769475&oldid=378589976]. I could understand if [[User:Llywrch]] wished to centralize discussion here on this board, and had closed that discussion with that in mind. But, that's not what happened. Instead, [[User:Llywrch|Llywrch]] chose to close the discussion by way of insulting me (accusing me of being incapable of understanding who deserves good faith). He can do what he wants with his talk page, and frankly I don't care about the insult. Junior league stuff far beneath him, and I'm surprised he descended to such drivel. But, what shocked me was his apparent intent to never assume good faith when it comes to Betacommand. To quote, "Waiting to hear from someone who understands who deserves good faith -- & who does not". Apparently Betacommand is not entitled to be treated under the terms of [[WP:AGF]]. |
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Since some of the editing restrictions have been lifted, there's been a growing upswing in attempts to attack Betacommand. Even here, I find it upsetting that an announcement was made on this board without an attempt by either [[User:Nagle|Nagle]] (the OP above) or [[User:Llywrch|Llywrch]] who protected the monobook page to inform him of the discussion here. |
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Is there some restriction I am unaware of that prohibits Betacommand from enjoying common courtesy, from enjoying [[WP:AGF]]? Should we just be done with this charade and permanently block him since so many people are out for his head on a platter? Or, alternatively, recognize the insane amount of scrutiny this editor has been under for the last year, having not been blocked in a year despite this intense scrutiny, and recognize that the restrictions he has been asked to hold to have in fact been held to. |
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In short, when does Betacommand stop being steam rolled and treated like a cretin, and start enjoying some of the protections from insipid attacks that others enjoy here without question? |
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I'm surprised Betacommand hasn't pulled a [[Steven Slater]] and said to hell with this place. --[[User:Hammersoft|Hammersoft]] ([[User talk:Hammersoft|talk]]) 21:42, 13 August 2010 (UTC) |
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Yea, the monobook was not dropping any wheels off. [[User:Off2riorob|Off2riorob]] ([[User talk:Off2riorob|talk]]) 21:45, 13 August 2010 (UTC) |
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: The only civil thing that can be said in response to Hammersoft's rant is that Hammersoft is routinely & incredibly uncritical of anything Betacommand/Delta does. Hammersoft would help Betacommand/Delta's greatly if he stopped defending him ''period''. -- [[User:Llywrch|llywrch]] ([[User talk:Llywrch|talk]]) 21:48, 13 August 2010 (UTC) |
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:* One might conclude that, yes. But it's not the case. I have also NOT stood up for Betacommand when I felt he was in the wrong. What sickens me is the lynch mob mentality that has been used for a long time to railroad Betacommand out of here. He is not without faults. He has numerous faults. More than I can readily count. But, regardless of his faults it does not give leave for people to attack him as he has been, with such an incredible amount of hatred. For example, it's blatant how biased you are against him. Yet, you felt it right and proper for you to be the one to institute protection on his monobook.js page. That was a serious failure on your part. As administrator [[User:Ale jrb|Ale jrb]] and [[User:Off2riorob]] noted, you were out of line. If you want to truly do the right thing, then unprotect his monobook,js and let someone more neutral handle it. --[[User:Hammersoft|Hammersoft]] ([[User talk:Hammersoft|talk]]) 21:53, 13 August 2010 (UTC) |
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::Yea, if your overly involved then don't use your tools. [[User:Off2riorob|Off2riorob]] ([[User talk:Off2riorob|talk]]) 21:56, 13 August 2010 (UTC) |
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::: "Overly involved"? If anything, I've stayed away from him as much as I can, & done as little about him as I can. Please look at my response to NickMacNee above. I never received a response from him, & the response from the Anon IP was unhelpful, so I didn't act. Had I truly been prejudiced against Betacommand/Delta, I would have blocked him on that complaint. I'm being more than fair: he can still edit, & AFAICS can still run his bot to his heart's content. Unlike too many people with a remarkable case of myopia, I simply don't care if he edits Wikipedia or not. -- [[User:Llywrch|llywrch]] ([[User talk:Llywrch|talk]]) 22:04, 13 August 2010 (UTC) |
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:Llywrch, I think as well that if you did not understand what was going on in the monobook, that you then had no reason to unilaterally revert it, let alone to protect the page (.. and that without warning first). For as far as you describe your understanding of the code, he may have written 48000 bytes of comments there. Also note, there is a difference between automated edits and assisted edits. Have you looked what the script does, Llywrch? I think that asking for an explanation first, and maybe giving delta a suggestion to explain a bit using e.g. edit summaries, would have been in place. --[[User:Beetstra|Dirk Beetstra]] <sup>[[User_Talk:Beetstra|<span style="color:#0000FF;">T</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Beetstra|<span style="color:#0000FF;">C</span>]]</sup> 22:07, 13 August 2010 (UTC) |
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*And now two adminstrators and another editor have found fault with Llywrch's actions. Ball's in your court, Llywrch. --[[User:Hammersoft|Myopic editor]] ([[User talk:Hammersoft|talk]]) 22:10, 13 August 2010 (UTC) |
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::Hammersoft, that sort of agressive comment provides nothing relevant to the discussion and does nothing to defuse the situation. If I were not assuming good faith, I might see it as intended only to needle at and generally annoy another user. I would retract it if I were you, tbh. [[User:Ale_jrb|<font color="green">A</font><small><font color="green">le_Jrb</font>]]</small><sup>[[User_talk:Ale_jrb|<font color="blue">talk</font>]]</sup> 22:12, 13 August 2010 (UTC) |
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::*My intent is not to needle Llywrch in any derogatory way. My intent is to encourage him, as was done by other people above, to undo his actions. They are clearly out of line. Your suggestion that I retract the comment is no different than my suggestion he retract his actions. I'm curious as to what your evaluation of "Unlike too many people with a remarkable case of myopia" is? --[[User:Hammersoft|Hammersoft]] ([[User talk:Hammersoft|talk]]) 22:14, 13 August 2010 (UTC) |
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:::Honestly? I somewhat agree that many of the users on both sides of this rather-pointless-yet-ongoing debate get altogether too involved - on both sides. Regardless, that appears to me an offhand possibly over-the-top choice of words, and I wouldn't have said it, but it wasn't a comment made (as I read it, and I freely admit I may well be wrong) solely to further an argumentative tone in the discussion, which has incidently wandered somewhat off-course. Basically, in a discussion, saying 'ball's in your court' is rather an agressive challenge to the other person, in my opinion. I don't think it helps here. Edit conflict: your addendum? Just no. It really is different. The comment I'm referring to makes no polite suggestion that the action should be reversed - it is blatantly confrontational. [[User:Ale_jrb|<font color="green">A</font><small><font color="green">le_Jrb</font>]]</small><sup>[[User_talk:Ale_jrb|<font color="blue">talk</font>]]</sup> 22:25, 13 August 2010 (UTC) |
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:::Here I agree with Ale jrb, Hammersoft. Your conclusion/perception that Llywrch's actions or remarks are out of line should, in my opinion, not be a reason for you to remark in a similar way. --[[User:Beetstra|Dirk Beetstra]] <sup>[[User_Talk:Beetstra|<span style="color:#0000FF;">T</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Beetstra|<span style="color:#0000FF;">C</span>]]</sup> 22:34, 13 August 2010 (UTC) |
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:::*I do defend Betacommand; Llywrch is right in that. I do it when I see it necessary. I don't do it when he's in the wrong. I'm also one of the few people who don't give a rats ass what someone thinks and is willing to point out a wrong has been committed, even if that generates hatred towards me. "What is right is not always popular. What is popular is not always right". That quote is of unknown origin, but applies very well here, and for me. Since I don't give a damn if I'm popular, the equation remains "what is right is right". Llywrch's actions were out of line. It can hardly be expected that I can bring attention to that without, in some sense of the word, being confrontational. By the very definition of confront, I must confront in order to express disapproval with the decisions and actions. Is my intent to deride, insult, belittle, or otherwise add fire? No. All that said, I find it very odd that I find myself being chastised for saying "Ball's in your court", but no reprobation has occurred with regards to Llywrch's implication that I lack the ability to understand who deserves good faith, that my initial statement in this thread was a "rant", and an implication that I am myopic. I think that's enough meta discussion on the nature of my intent and Llywrch's comments. I hope anyways. --[[User:Hammersoft|Hammersoft]] ([[User talk:Hammersoft|talk]]) 22:35, 13 August 2010 (UTC) |
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:::Hammersoft, if that is how you feel, then raising that, as a separate issue, on Llywrch's talkpage would be the first step, and a second step would be an appropriate noticeboard. I understand that you are upset, but that is a separate issue from this. --[[User:Beetstra|Dirk Beetstra]] <sup>[[User_Talk:Beetstra|<span style="color:#0000FF;">T</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Beetstra|<span style="color:#0000FF;">C</span>]]</sup> 22:39, 13 August 2010 (UTC) |
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:::*Umm, I'm not upset. If I am, it's because I'm being chastised for something that was never intended to be insulting, yet llywrch get's a free pass to insult at will. I don't care if he's given a free pass. But, if he is, I at least deserve the same. If you feel my comment was uncivil or violated [[WP:NPA]], feel free to report it at the appropriate board. Otherwise, can we please drop the meta discussion about the intent of my comments? This is not the Hammersoft noticeboard. --[[User:Hammersoft|Hammersoft]] ([[User talk:Hammersoft|talk]]) 22:43, 13 August 2010 (UTC) |
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:::I am not the one feeling insulted by Llywrch. And I am not giving him a free pass, I think my comments above clearly showed that I would like either an explanation, and probably a reversion of the action by Llywrch. But as I said, you suggest that you raise the civility points regarding Llywrch somewhere else, an we keep the delta-discussion here. I'm still waiting for an explanation on that part from Llywrch. --[[User:Beetstra|Dirk Beetstra]] <sup>[[User_Talk:Beetstra|<span style="color:#0000FF;">T</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Beetstra|<span style="color:#0000FF;">C</span>]]</sup> 22:50, 13 August 2010 (UTC) |
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*I suggest a long block of Llywrch since he has rather obviously demonstrated poor judgement and got it wrong badly, and doesn't seem to understand or accept that. Jon. {{unsigned|81.147.53.12}} |
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:::: Christ, people waste so much time trying to micromanage this guy's actions... can't we just let him alone? If he does something damaging or disruptive, reenact the ban. If not, then we're up one contributor. [[User:Burpelson AFB|Burpelson AFB]] ([[User talk:Burpelson AFB|talk]]) 01:00, 14 August 2010 (UTC) |
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{{Collapse bottom}} |
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This thread went deeply off tangent, but the original point remains; do we just block Betacommand and be done with it or do we treat him as we do other editors, minus the current standing restrictions? Right, every opportunity is being taken to launch attacks against Betacommand. It's feeding frenzy. Regardless of your opinion of him, it should be blatantly obvious that such a situation is untenable. --[[User:Hammersoft|Hammersoft]] ([[User talk:Hammersoft|talk]]) 01:27, 14 August 2010 (UTC) |
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*I don't think we are going to answer that here. But my guess is, neither. He isn't (shouldn't, perhaps) left on a hair trigger, but at the same time, no one is going to forget the parade of troubles ßC created before he was banned. The result is not going to be perfect. Some editors will act out fo frustration that what they thought was set in stone as a solution was actually quite fluid. Others will forgive and forget. Still others will be too new to even remember the original unban discussion (let alone the ban). Whatever the case, we aren't well served by debating it here. [[User:Protonk|Protonk]] ([[User talk:Protonk|talk]]) 03:13, 14 August 2010 (UTC) |
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== name change == |
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As Δ (Delta) has been allowed a name change I was thinking this page name should be changed also. As I have seen it is not the normal to continue to refer to users by their old names. [[User:Off2riorob|Off2riorob]] ([[User talk:Off2riorob|talk]]) 08:49, 14 August 2010 (UTC) |
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:Prob because most people don't know how to type a delta on a keyboard. And is anyone surprised one bit by this behavior?<span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — [[User:Rlevse|<b style="color:#060;"><i>R</i>levse</b>]] • [[User_talk:Rlevse|<span style="color:#990;">Talk</span>]] • </span> 09:49, 14 August 2010 (UTC) |
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::Rlevse: [[WP:REDIRECT]] ?? --[[User:Beetstra|Dirk Beetstra]] <sup>[[User_Talk:Beetstra|<span style="color:#0000FF;">T</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Beetstra|<span style="color:#0000FF;">C</span>]]</sup> 11:05, 14 August 2010 (UTC) |
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I think the page should be moved to his new name as all editors are allowed that usual and the old name should become a redirect to the new name.. are there any objections to this? [[User:Off2riorob|Off2riorob]] ([[User talk:Off2riorob|talk]]) 17:15, 14 August 2010 (UTC) |
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:Good idea, and perhaps a work around for "Delta" which some including me have typed out recently? [[User:LessHeard vanU|LessHeard vanU]] ([[User talk:LessHeard vanU|talk]]) 17:45, 14 August 2010 (UTC) |
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::I assume "Δ" won't cause problems for browsers etc (I assume not, since it's already in the URL for Δ's userpage etc)? So this proposal would be: |
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::* Move [[Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Betacommand]] to [[Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Δ]]; |
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::* Retain [[Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Betacommand]] as a redirect; |
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::* Create a redirect, [[Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Delta]]. |
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::[[User talk:TFOWR|<b style="color:#000">TFOW</b><b style="color:#F00">R</b>]] 18:10, 14 August 2010 (UTC) |
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I was thinking perhaps [[Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Δ (Delta)]] perhaps as the main page name. [[User:Off2riorob|Off2riorob]] ([[User talk:Off2riorob|talk]]) 18:11, 14 August 2010 (UTC) |
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*Why bother? Ideally this board would be deprecated altogether. Renaming it kind of gives the impression we think BC/D will continue to require his own noticeboard. –[[user:xeno on an iPhone|<font face="verdana" color="black">'''xeno'''</font>]][[user talk:xeno|<font color="black"><sup>talk</sup></font>]] 18:16, 14 August 2010 (UTC) |
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:*If there is support for that then I have no objection to that either. [[User:Off2riorob|Off2riorob]] ([[User talk:Off2riorob|talk]]) 18:21, 14 August 2010 (UTC) |
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:*The evidence is that he does still need his own board.... [[User:Spartaz|Spartaz]] <sup>''[[User talk:Spartaz|Humbug!]]''</sup> 19:12, 14 August 2010 (UTC) |
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Fair enough, so at least lets allow hm the normal issues of renaming it to his new name and creating the redirects. [[User:Off2riorob|Off2riorob]] ([[User talk:Off2riorob|talk]]) 19:33, 14 August 2010 (UTC) |
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== Δ content policing again == |
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Δ is once again going ballistic with content policing according to his idiosyncratic standards. A few examples: |
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{{pagelinks|New Zealand dollar}}, eight blanket reverts within 24 hours: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=New_Zealand_dollar&action=historysubmit&diff=427091227&oldid=426751268] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=New_Zealand_dollar&diff=next&oldid=427132045] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=New_Zealand_dollar&diff=next&oldid=427141165] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=New_Zealand_dollar&diff=next&oldid=427142115] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=New_Zealand_dollar&diff=next&oldid=427142316] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=New_Zealand_dollar&diff=next&oldid=427142747] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=New_Zealand_dollar&diff=next&oldid=427145765] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=New_Zealand_dollar&diff=next&oldid=427147088] |
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{{pagelinks|Banknotes of the Indonesian rupiah}}, six reverts within 24h: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Banknotes_of_the_Indonesian_rupiah&action=historysubmit&diff=428173865&oldid=428158027] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Banknotes_of_the_Indonesian_rupiah&diff=next&oldid=428228488] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Banknotes_of_the_Indonesian_rupiah&diff=next&oldid=428259571] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Banknotes_of_the_Indonesian_rupiah&diff=next&oldid=428262886] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Banknotes_of_the_Indonesian_rupiah&diff=next&oldid=428263093] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Banknotes_of_the_Indonesian_rupiah&diff=next&oldid=428303667] |
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{{pagelinks|Ranks in Gerakan Pramuka Indonesia}}, three in 24 hours: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ranks_in_Gerakan_Pramuka_Indonesia&action=historysubmit&diff=428006375&oldid=427998571] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ranks_in_Gerakan_Pramuka_Indonesia&diff=next&oldid=428014840] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ranks_in_Gerakan_Pramuka_Indonesia&diff=next&oldid=428025463] |
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While this behaviour might be tolerable if he were actually enforcing clear-cut policy, his primary justification seems to be [[WP:OVERUSE]], an essay he himself wrote (!), and an extreme interpretation of even that. For the specific case of fair use images of banknotes in currency pages, his blanket removals go against the existing consensus that these images are OK, and they are strongly disputed by many members of the community, as per the long discussion at [[Wikipedia talk:Non-free content#Currency notes]]. For [[Banknotes of the Indonesian rupiah]], he has repeatedly removed the images despite considerable evidence that they are in fact PD! And to top it off, he uses highly misleading edit summaries, eg. describing clearly sourced and attributed fair use images as [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=New_Zealand_dollar&action=historysubmit&diff=427141213&oldid=427141165 "copyvio"], and [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AIndonesian_rupiah&action=historysubmit&diff=428362102&oldid=428322172 regularly threatens] users who revert his changes with [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ang_Bagong_Lipunan_Series&action=historysubmit&diff=428241826&oldid=428235724 being blocked]. |
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This behavior is not tolerable, and us tolerating it harms Wikipedia. It's time to restrict him again or, preferably, just ban him entirely and be done with it. [[User:Jpatokal|Jpatokal]] ([[User talk:Jpatokal|talk]]) 10:51, 10 May 2011 (UTC) |
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:My experience on [[Banknotes of the Indonesian rupiah]], is that he ripped the article apart by removing all of the images (without notifying any relevant parties - Indonesia Wikiproject, numismatics, etc.), then reverted no less than six times, in clear violation of 3RR based only on his personal interpretation of 'overuse'. His behaviour towards others - slapping me with warning templates, reverting first discussing later, is in clear contrast to what he tolerates himself, as shown by his removal of warning and discussions above. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/86.162.117.177|86.162.117.177]] ([[User talk:86.162.117.177|talk]]) 22:40, 9 May 2011 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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If copyvio is claimed, or overuse of fair use images, or unexplained 'fair use', then the point is, that the [[WP:BURDEN|burden]] is on the person who wants to ''include'' the images. Yes, that needs first a full removal of ALL images, but unexplained re-insertions are not to be done, the images have to stay out until proper proof is given. Those removals are hence exempt from 3RR as the insertions are against a part of non-negotiable parts of policies. As far as I can see, that is NOT done, and Delta here is in the right with the removals. Properly clean up the pages, clean up the images, make a selection of what to re-''include'', and to be safe, discuss the re-insertion, and then perform that. Also, 'considerable evidence' is not enough, it needs to be proper evidenced, and images can not be used as such until that is properly done. --[[User:Beetstra|Dirk Beetstra]] <sup>[[User_Talk:Beetstra|<span style="color:#0000FF;">T</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Beetstra|<span style="color:#0000FF;">C</span>]]</sup> 11:00, 10 May 2011 (UTC) |
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: In short, no. [[WP:3RR]] only allow exceptions for "Removal of clear copyright violations or content that '''unquestionably''' violates the non-free content policy." (emphasis in the original) This is quite clearly not the case: |
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: 1) None of the images above were copyvios by any standard, Δ just likes to use that word in his edit summaries. (And if they were, the correct response would be to tag them for deletion, which Δ has not done.) |
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: 2) [[WP:OVERUSE]] is an essay, not policy. |
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: 3) [[WP:NFCI]] explicitly lists currency as one of the approved uses of fair use images. There is no consensus on how many per article are permissible; all of the latest Δ's claimed violations were well within the latest WP Numismatics proposal of obverse and reverse of each current note. |
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: To put it another way, if Δ's reverts were indeed "unquestionable", there would not be lots of editors like me questioning them! [[User:Jpatokal|Jpatokal]] ([[User talk:Jpatokal|talk]]) 11:23, 10 May 2011 (UTC) |
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::I think it's worth pointing out at this stage that the WikiProject's opinion of the matter is not massively important. If the WikiProject guidelines say one thing, and the NFCC say another... [[User:J Milburn|J Milburn]] ([[User talk:J Milburn|talk]]) 11:26, 10 May 2011 (UTC) |
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(ec)Hmm .. almost .. the Foundation has clearly stated that the use should be minimal, and that part is not negotiable. OVERUSE is an essay based on that principle and the underlying policies ([[WP:NFLISTS]]). Yes, there is appropriate use of non-free images, but that they are allowed does not mean that you are allowed to overuse them (images have to comply with both [[WP:NFCI]] ánd [[WP:NFLISTS]], claiming that they comply with [[WP:NFCI]] alone is not enough). Overuse may be a questionable term, but if that is ''claimed'', either it has to be solved, or all have to be removed and a selection has to be made. Asking an editor who may not know the specific topic to solve the problem is not a solution, barring that, the editor should remove all and ask relevant people (generally, the uploader) to solve the problem. Undiscussed re-insertions of that are disruptive. |
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Copyvio may be the incorrect term, but basically, fair use of images is ''still'' copyvio. You ''are'' using a copyrighted image, just that law allows the use of them under fair use (but the Wikipedia board has decided that they will go further than that, since fair use images are still not free!). |
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And yes, there will be more people who complain when their images are rightfully removed, than that there will be editors who are rightfully removing them, of course there will be 'lots of editors like me questioning them'. --[[User:Beetstra|Dirk Beetstra]] <sup>[[User_Talk:Beetstra|<span style="color:#0000FF;">T</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Beetstra|<span style="color:#0000FF;">C</span>]]</sup> 11:35, 10 May 2011 (UTC)(update --[[User:Beetstra|Dirk Beetstra]] <sup>[[User_Talk:Beetstra|<span style="color:#0000FF;">T</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Beetstra|<span style="color:#0000FF;">C</span>]]</sup> 11:43, 10 May 2011 (UTC)) |
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: That gives a ridiculous amount of leeway for any editor who claims that anything violates any policy on the flimsiest grounds to delete anything. For example, [[ANZ Bank]] claims the copyright on a certain shade of the color blue. Using this color without permission would be a copyright violation -- does this give me the right to remove all images from Wikipedia that use that shade, or a sufficiently similar shade, as decided by me? And if my edits are reverted, can I revert them back with impunity (since I'm exempt from 3RR) and report anybody who counter-reverts to ANI (as Delta likes to do)? Surely you will agree that this would be ridiculous -- but how is it any different from what's happening now? |
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: [[WP:NFC]]'s minimal rule states "Multiple items of non-free content are not used '''if one item can convey equivalent significant information.'''" (emphasis mine) In ''my'' opinion, one image of a currency note does not convey "equivalent significant information" as one of image of ''each'' note, but obviously Delta disagrees. Are you really telling me that drawing this line is "unquestionably" easy? If yes, what ''is'' the limit -- one, two, four, ten? What if the notes come from different series and look radically different? What if there are three or four series in circulation? |
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: What's particularly pernicious is that, if Delta removes a fair-use image from an article, it becomes an orphan and is automatically deleted in a few days. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Non-free_content#RfC:_Did_recent_currency_image_deletions_go_beyond_the_proper_aims_and_objectives_of_the_NFC_image_policy.3F There is currently an RFC] to settle the policy issue of how currency note images can be used, but this means that, even if the RFC decides in favor of keeping the images, they will be long gone before the discussion is complete! [[User:Jpatokal|Jpatokal]] ([[User talk:Jpatokal|talk]]) 01:31, 11 May 2011 (UTC) |
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Jpatokal, yes, that is the case. If ''someone'' finds a copyright violation here on Wikipedia, it would be wrong to leave it there. [[WP:COPYRIGHT]] is NOT negotiable. And so are parts of [[WP:NFC]]. And there are a few more of those policies which are not negotiable. It is just a few, most of the things that we mass delete or blank are by our own free choice - not implied by forms of law, or by the Foundation. We have mass blanked such articles, deleted such images, and articles and images are deleted or blanked on a daily basis because of that. Yes, if one editor finds a certain kind of copyright violation, and would go around deleting that, then yes, that editor would be right, that is not disruptive editing, however, if an editor then knowingly reverts that, then that should be reverted on sight. --[[User:Beetstra|Dirk Beetstra]] <sup>[[User_Talk:Beetstra|<span style="color:#0000FF;">T</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Beetstra|<span style="color:#0000FF;">C</span>]]</sup> 07:12, 11 May 2011 (UTC) |
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: Fascinating. As it happens, the blue boxes on your home page may violate ANZ's copyright, so I've taken the liberty to changing them to a safer shade of pink. Admittedly my eyes may not be quite what they used to be, so maybe it's not ''exactly'' the same shade, but better safe than sorry right? My action in defense of [[WP:COPYRIGHT]] is not disruptive, after all, so don't you go reverting them back now. [[User:Jpatokal|Jpatokal]] ([[User talk:Jpatokal|talk]]) 11:21, 11 May 2011 (UTC) |
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::Ive reverted you, any further [[WP:POINT]] actions and you will be blocked. Colors cannot be copyrighted. see [[Threshold of originality]]. [[User talk:Δ|ΔT <sub><sup><font color="darkred">The only constant</font></sup></sub>]] 11:22, 11 May 2011 (UTC) |
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Latest revision as of 22:09, 4 February 2023
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This page has archives. Sections older than 7 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III. |
This is a centralized page of discussion pertaining to User:Δ, formerly User:Betacommand, and his bots User:BetacommandBot and User:Δbot (User:Deltabot). These discussions were previously on the Administrators' Incidents Noticeboard, but have been moved here in the interests of space and navigation. This page is for participating and discussing in a civil manner all matters that relate to this user and his bots.
Please do not use this page to attack these users instead of participating in civil discussion.
This is not a complaints department. If you have a private matter that concerns this user, please discuss it with Δ on his talk page.