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पाटलिपुत्र (Pataliputra)

पाटलिपुत्र (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

I'm not going to go into the other conducts by Pataliputra (which includes WP:OR and WP:SYNTH) this time. This report will be solely about their edits related to images, since that's one huge issue in its own right.

For literally years and years on end Pataliputra has had a complete disregard for how much space there is in articles and the logic/reason behind adding their images, often resorting to shoehorning often irrelevant images which often look more or less the same as the other placed image(s), and generally bring no extra value to the readers other than making them read a mess. I don't want to engage in speculations, but when Pataliputra is randomly placing their uploaded images into other images [1] (which is incredibly strange and not something I've ever seen in Commons), it makes me suspect a reason for their constant shoehorning and addition of often irrelevant/non-helpful images is to simply promote the stuff they have uploaded.

These are just the diffs I remember from the top of my head, I dare not even to imagine how many diffs I would possess if I saved every one of them I noticed throughout the years as well as the opposition by other users, because this has been ongoing for too long. I've frankly had enough;

1. [2]
2. [3]
3. [4]
4. [5]
5. [6]
6. [7]
7. [8]
8. [9]
9. [10]
10. [11]
11. [12]
12. [13]
13. [14]
14. [15]
15. [16]
16. [17]
17. [18]
18. [19]
19. [20]
20. [21]
21. [22]
22. [23]
23. [24]
24. [25]
25. [26]

Recently, a user voiced their concern [27] against the excessively added images by Pataliputra at Badr al-Din Lu'lu'. What did Pataliputra do right after that? Respond to the criticism? No, ignore it and add more images (eg [28]). Did Pataliputra bother to take in the criticism even remotely by the other user and me at Talk:Badr al-Din Lu'lu' afterwards? They did not. In fact, they added even more image after that [29]. Other recent examples are these [30] [31] [32] [33]. I also found a thread from 2019 also showing disaffection to their edits related to images [34].

Their constructive edits should not negate non-constructive ones like these. This really needs to stop. --HistoryofIran (talk) 23:13, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

As already explained [35] the most relevant information is not always in the form of text. I can create an article about Central Asian art with 135 images in it, and receive a barnstar for it [36], or create articles with no images at all. The article about Badr al-Din Lu'lu' is in between: there is little textual information about this ruler, but on the contrary a lot of very interesting information in visual form (works of art, manuscripts, which have reached us in astounding quality and quantities). These objects are what makes Badr al-Din Lu'lu' remarkable as a ruler. There are no fixed rules, and it depends on the subject matter, the key point being relevance. In general, the images I am adding are not "random gallery" at all: they are properly commented upon in captions, and usually sourced, and are very valuable in their own right. Of course, we can discuss about the relevance of any given image, that's what Talk pages are for... पाटलिपुत्र (Pataliputra) (talk) 09:26, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

But you are indeed adding images that are not relevant, and often shoehorning it a that, something you were criticized for at Talk:Badr al-Din Lu'lu' and which the numerous diffs demonstrate. That is what this whole report is about - when you have been doing this for literal years, that's when the talk page is no longer of use and ANI is the place to go. And Central Asian art is a poor example, it's an article about art.. of course images are more relevant there, and this is ultimately about your bad edits, not good ones - so please address those. I'm glad you got a barnstar, but this is not what's being discussed here. HistoryofIran (talk) 12:27, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

These objects are what makes Badr al-Din Lu'lu' remarkable as a ruler.

Unless you have citations to back that up, this is WP:OR. Simply put, we don't need this many images on an article, especially an article that has little textual information about this ruler (which might be an argument for deletion or merge). — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 18:14, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

Artistic creation was indeed a central part of Badr al-Din Lu'lu''s rule, see: "Another notable figure is Badr al-Din Lu'lu (d. 1259), a ruler of Mosul who was recognized for his patronage of the arts." in Evans, Helen C. (22 September 2018). Armenia: Art, Religion, and Trade in the Middle Ages. Metropolitan Museum of Art. p. 122. ISBN 978-1-58839-660-0. or "Badr al - Din Lulu ( 1210-59 ), first as vizier of the last Zengids and then as an independent ruler, brought stability to the city, and the arts flourished. Badr al-Din Lulu himself actively supported the inlaid metalwork industry in his capital." in Ward, Rachel (1993). Islamic Metalwork. British Museum Press. p. 90. ISBN 978-0-7141-1458-3. To be complete, an article about Badr al-Din Lu'lu' indeed has to be in great part about art, except if you want to create an article such as "Art of Mosul under Badr al-Din Lu'lu', but I would tend to think this is unnecessary, as long as we can describe his artistic contributions in sufficient detail in the main article. पाटलिपुत्र (Pataliputra) (talk) 09:35, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

It's not uncommon for a ruler to be a patron of arts, doesn't mean that their article have to become a Commons article. HistoryofIran (talk) 11:25, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

I have some recent diffs to add to HistoryofIran's list. Pataliputra is adding original research on several Armenian churches articles, claiming that they contain "muqarnas" and Seljuk/Islamic influence without a reliable source verifying that.

[37] used the website "VirtualAni" as a source, which the user themselves claims is unreliable And this entire section the user added is not even supported by VirtualAni, it's entirely original research.

[38] adding "muqarnas" to an image without citation.

[39] Created this article and the first image is not even an image of the church itself (see the Russian wiki image for comparison), it's just one of the halls (incorrently called "entrance" so more original research), again called seljuk "muqarnas". He also separated sections to "old Armenian church" and "Seljuk gavir" as if all of it isn't part of the church itself. The church was never converted or anything to have a separate "seljuk gavit" and "old Armenian church" section, and the lead has POV undue claim as last sentence.

[40] Created another Armenian church article where most of the content is not about the church and mostly consists of a large paragraph copied from Muqarnas article. None of the sources even mention the Astvatsankal Monastery, it is entirely original research.

[41] Again adding "muqarnas" to an image with "VirtualAni" as the source

[42] Another new section entirely copied from the Muqarnas article that doesn't even mention the church in question

[43] Another created article with original research added to images and "VirtualAni" added as a source KhndzorUtogh (talk) 23:45, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

Like it or not, and I'm sorry if I hurt some Armenian sensitivities, the presence of Islamic decorative elements in Armenian architecture is a well-known and ubiquitous phenomenon, including, yes the famous muqarnas (an Arabic term by the way...). You could start by reading for example:

• Guidetti, Mattia (2017). "7 - The 'Islamicness' of Some Decorative Patterns in the Church of Tigran Honents in Ani". Architecture and landscape in medieval Anatolia, 1100-1500. Edinburgh: Edinburgh University Press. pp. 170–177. ISBN 9781474411301.
• Blessing, Patricia (8 March 2017). Architecture and Landscape in Medieval Anatolia, 1100-1500. Edinburgh University Press. p. 159. ISBN 978-1-4744-1130-1.
• Ghazarian, Armen; Ousterhout, Robert (2001). "A Muqarnas Drawing from Thirteenth-Century Armenia and the Use of Architectural Drawings during the Middle Ages". Muqarnas. 18: 141–154. doi:10.2307/1523305. ISSN 0732-2992.
• Maranci, Christina (14 September 2018). The Art of Armenia: An Introduction. Oxford University Press. p. 135. ISBN 978-0-19-026901-2.
• Eastmond, Antony (1 January 2017). Tamta's World: The Life and Encounters of a Medieval Noblewoman from the Middle East to Mongolia. Cambridge University Press. p. 297. doi:10.1017/9781316711774.011. The most obvious architectural form that was adopted in Armenian churches was the muqarnas vault. A fine example is the complex muqarnas that was used to build up the central vault of the zhamatun at Harichavank, which was added to the main church in the monastery by 1219. The origin of this type of vaulting clearly comes from Islamic sources, but it is used very differently here.

Despite the numerous articles on Armenian churches in general, I was surprised that there were no articles on such major and significant sites as Church of the Holy Apostles (Ani), or St Gregory of Tigran Honents, so I tried to bring them out of oblivion. I am sure there are things to improve, and you are welcome to help. पाटलिपुत्र (Pataliputra) (talk) 07:08, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

What does this have to do with KhndzorUtoghs diffs? If you have WP:RS, by all means, use them. But you didn't do it in those diffs, which is a problem. HistoryofIran (talk) 18:39, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

I've been trying to bring forward some information about some interesting but little known Armenian churches such as the Bagnayr Monastery, the Church of the Holy Apostles (Ani) or Astvatsankal Monastery. At first, it seemed that Virtual ANI was about the only source on some aspects of these churches. Although it is not strictly RS, Virtual ANI turned out to be a fairly good source of information, and is also used as a source by institutions such as UCLA's Promise Armenian Institute. I agree it's not ideal though, it was more a way to start up these articles as I was researching them in the first few days, which I should probably have done in a Sandbox instead. I have since replaced the references with proper WP:RS sources, which, to be fair, have all confirmed the information initially obtained from Virtual ANI. In general, the existence of Seljuk influences on Armenian art is a well-known fact, including muqarnas etc... and is referenced per the above, among a multitude of other sources. पाटलिपुत्र (Pataliputra) (talk) 06:56, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

You should have started out with something like this comment, rather than ignoring KhndzorUtogh diffs and attacking them, not until after you've been criticized further. Moreover, Virtual ANI is still being used in some of the articles [44] [45]. Whether it's a well known fact or not is irrelevant, we still need to cite WP:RS, you should know this by now, you've been here for years. HistoryofIran (talk) 09:12, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

Actually, I have not added a single "Virtual ANI" reference to the Ani article since the time I first started editing this article 3 months ago: the dozens of Virtual Ani references in the article have been there for years (including when you yourself edited the article) and were added by different users. As for Church of the Holy Apostles (Ani), I removed the two remaining references I had added [46]. पाटलिपुत्र (Pataliputra) (talk) 14:42, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

That's my bad regarding Ani then, should have checked it more properly (see? I immediately apologized for my mistake. I didn't ignore it, double down or started attacking you). And thanks for removing the last Virtual Ani citations. HistoryofIran (talk) 14:50, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for bringing this up. I'm afraid Pataliputra has probably made tons of these type of edits and got away with them, since there are not that many people who are well-versed in the articles they edit or look fully into their additions since they initially appear ok. Now that you've brought this up, I might as well talk about the other disruptive conducts by Pataliputra, especially since they're ignoring this report and their conduct.

I have encountered a lot of WP:OR, WP:SYNTH and even WP:NPOV, WP:NPOV and WP:CIR issues from Pataliputra. For example at Saka in 2023, Pataliputra engaged in WP:SYNTH/WP:OR/WP:TENDENTIOUS, completely disregarding the academic consensus on the ethnicity of the Saka and the differing results on their genetics, bizarrely attempting to push the POV that DNA equals ethnicity and trying to override the article with the DNA info they considered to be "mainstream" without any proof [47] [48]. Or at Talk:Sultanate of Rum, where they engaged in pure WP:SYNTH/WP:OR, and initially didn't even bother to look into what the main subject "Turco-Persian" meant, mainly basing their argument on a flawed interpretation of its meaning (for more info, see my comment at [49]) until they finally read its meaning but continued to engage in WP:SYNTH/WP:OR to push their POV. Another veteran used also mentioned that they engaged in WP:SYNTH here recently [50]. There's also this comment where they again were called out for WP:OR by yet another veteran user in 2023 [51]. There's also this ANI thread from 2022, Pataliputra "has a long history of 1. original research, spamming both image and text across hundreds of Wikipedia articles..". Mind you, these are not new users or IPs calling Pataliputra out, but users who have been consistently active for years. I'm sure I can dig out even more diffs if need be. HistoryofIran (talk) 00:38, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

• I don't have much time, so I will just note that while I have previously thought Pataliputra needs to cool it with the images, they are—let's be honest—about as biased as any of us in the minefield of Central/West/South Asian topics. I would oppose any sanction that goes further than restrictions on image-adding. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 11:39, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

  A restriction for image-adding was what I initially would support too. However, with Pataliputra's evasion of the evidence presented here, I support harsher restrictions. Otherwise, they will no doubt continue with their conduct, as they have already done for years. HistoryofIran (talk) 13:37, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

  I honestly don't see much evidence presented. Diffs like [52] and [53] are nothingburgers, not worth escalating to demanding a broad topic ban. The brouhaha about Talk:India has no relevance to the proposed ban on Central Asian/Turkic topics. Pataliputra and I often don't get along, but this is too far. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 01:51, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

  AirshipJungleman29, the reason I put a DNAU in several days is to avoid the thread getting suddenly archived by either lack of comments or the DNAU suddenly expiring. HistoryofIran (talk) 15:04, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

  @AirshipJungleman29 Can you please show what supports this claim? [54] The proposal is ongoing, and current agreement seems to be a least an image restriction. Pataliputra shouldn't just be able to get away with whatever they want. HistoryofIran (talk) 18:13, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

  HistoryofIran at the top of this page it says "Sections inactive for 72 hours are archived automatically by Lowercase sigmabot III." It is not your responsibility to clerk this page on behalf of the administrators by altering this intended feature of how ANI functions, whether or not you feel Pataliputra is "getting away with what they want". Although this discussion has been open for over a month now and is the oldest discussion at this page by a margin of two weeks, the proposal has only attracted five !votes in a week, and none for three days. I request that if you feel a DNAU is needed, you ask an administrator to add it for you. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 21:04, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

  This is not convincing. I can name you countless threads which have led to the block (often indef) of someone thanks to a DNAU. If not for that, they would still be roaming around, doing their disruptive editing, and thus hurting this project. Some threads take longer than others to reach a conclusion, especially if they are longer. HistoryofIran (talk) 21:22, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

  A good example is this recent case. First report auto-archived [55], which led to more disruption, which made me file a second report [56], which would have gotten auto-archived too if not for the DNAU. The user ended up getting indeffed. I fail to see how Pataliputra's case should be treated differently, especially when we have proof that they have been doing this for years. Also, only a few months ago you yourself mentioned that Pataliputra had engaged in WP:OR [57] HistoryofIran (talk) 01:13, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

  Also, there is evidence of years of WP:OR and image spamming, as well as repeated WP:ASPERSIONS in this thread. HistoryofIran (talk) 01:21, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

• Does Pataliputra's personal attack ("hurt some Armenian sensitivities") merit a sanction on its own? KhndzorUtogh (talk) 21:31, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

There is no personal attack intended. I am quite a fan of Armenian culture (I recently built up Zakarid Armenia from a 15k to a 90k article, created Proshyan dynasty, and revamped several of the Armenian Monasteries articles, which for the most part were completely unreferenced). But your comments above seemed to reflect a strong antipathy towards any suggestion of Seljuk/Islamic influences on Armenian art (the ubiquitous muqarnas etc...). I know this is a sensitive matter, but it shouldn't be: in my view this is more a proof that cultures can collaborate and exchange in peaceful and beautiful ways. I think I have also improved significantly the sourcing since you made your last comments. पाटलिपुत्र (Pataliputra) (talk) 06:44, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

It definitely reads like a personal attack and I encourage you to retract that comment. Northern Moonlight 00:10, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

Comment retracted, and apologies if anyone felt offended. पाटलिपुत्र (Pataliputra) (talk) 04:03, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

Pataliputra replied about their casting WP:ASPERSIONS personal attack with casting aspersions yet again ("your comments above seemed to reflect a strong antipathy towards any suggestion of Seljuk/Islamic influences"). This user seems to have a history of making xenophobic comments and pestering and harassing other users, having been warned previously. Some past examples:

• "An actual Indian"
• "The 'Society' paragraph is illustrated by a Muslim in prayer in an old mosque in Srinagar... is this really emblematic of today's Indian society?"
• "Why has the unique photograph in the religion paragraph have to be a photograph of a Christian church??... is this really representative of religion in India? Again, this is highly WP:Undue and border provocative for a majority Hindu country"

Pataliputra was also warned by an admin to drop this argument because the images weren't undue. KhndzorUtogh (talk) 21:20, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

I suspect any user like me with 7 years and about 70,000 edits on this site will encounter some conflictual situation at some point... your so-called "history of ... pestering and harassing other users" refers to a single event back from 2017, and was a defensive statement by a notoriously difficult user who has long left the site... My request for an "An actual Indian" for an illustration on the India page dated back to 2020 and was in reaction to an underage American kid wearing an Indian garment being used as an illustration in that article. In the end, that image was removed from the article by the very same Admin you mention, so I guess I was not all that wrong. And yes, I'm suspicious of users who seem to deny the existence of foreign influences in their art or culture, and will tend to denounce this as bigotted behaviour. And if I think an image is undue in the context of a specific article or paragraph, I will also call that out, as most of us should. पाटलिपुत्र (Pataliputra) (talk) 06:33, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

And if I think an image is undue in the context of a specific article or paragraph, I will also call that out, as most of us should.

...Except when it's an image uploaded by you per the diffs. I just had to do more clean up [58].

And yes, I'm suspicious of users who seem to deny the existence of foreign influences in their art or culture, and will tend to denounce this as bigotted behaviour.

Which you just attempted here against KhndzorUtogh (who merely called you out for obvious WP:OR) and it backfired. Be mindful of WP:GF and WP:ASPERSIONS. HistoryofIran (talk) 09:17, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

I'm afraid I'll have to call into question what you call "clean up"... [59]: you are replacing contemporary images of actual Seljuk rulers by an image of a tomb, which would better fit in the page of an individual ruler, and worse, an anachronistic (15th century) French miniature with not an ounce of verisimilitude to the actual Seljuks. These are not improvements. पाटलिपुत्र (Pataliputra) (talk) 15:01, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

Beggars can't be choosers, you very well know that contemporary images for specific events are hard to find for this period. At least they're related to the topic, which is what matters. You (amongst other things) added the image of the last Seljuk ruler to the section of the first Seljuk ruler for crying out loud (which I replaced with the tomb of the first Seljuk ruler, be my guest if you can find a better and actual relevant image). And all those images I removed were conveniently uploaded by you. Your reply further proves that your edits in terms of image adding are not constructive. You should read MOS:IMAGERELEVANCE; "Images must be significant and relevant in the topic's context, not primarily decorative. They are often an important illustrative aid to understanding. When possible, find better images and improve captions instead of simply removing poor or inappropriate ones, especially on pages with few visuals. However, not every article needs images, and too many can be distracting." HistoryofIran (talk) 15:10, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

"I'm suspicious of users who seem to deny the existence of foreign influences in their art or culture" It is amazing how you continue casting aspersions in every new comment explaining/apologizing for the former incident of casting aspersions. --KhndzorUtogh (talk) 21:25, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

• I would certainly support a restriction on any image-adding; the apparent aspersions being cast freely and OR (or at least uncited) edits lead me to come very close to supporting a stronger restriction, but if i AFG i hope/guess/think that a smaller restiction will help him realise the inappropriateness of some of his actions and edit more appropriately. Happy days, ~ Lindsay^Hello 14:05, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

• I think Pataliputra better be topic-banned from Central Asian, Iranic, and Turkic topics. Or even more topics based on provided diffs; e.g. Armenian and Caucasus. There are similar edits to his edits on Saka. For example, on Kushan Empire, Puduḫepa removed Pataliputra's addition,[60] then Pataliputra restored his edit with a simple edit summary;[61] ignoring Puduḫepa's concern and the content of article. Pataliputra's edits led to Talk:Kushan Empire/Archive 2#UNDUE and speculative content. If you read the discussion, you see there were more questionable edits by him. Another example is Ghurid dynasty. Original research and unsourced edit[62] which was reverted[63] by HistoryofIran. Pataliputra has good edits for sure, but in this case he needs 6-month to 1-year vacation. --Mann Mann (talk) 02:27, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

• You will note that I have long been one of the main contributors to the Kushan Empire article. When an unknown user comes around and deletes referenced material, we usually immediately restore the material. If disagreements persist, we naturally continue on the Talk Page. In this case, we agreed to leave aside the Turkic hypothesis (mainly stemming from the Rajatarangini account describing the Kushans as Turushka (तुरुष्क)) since the modern sources were weak.
• The fact that the Turkic language was in use in the Ghurid dynasty and the succeeding Delhi Sultanate is neither original research nor unsourced (you will find more references in the body of the article). We removed it from the infobox because, arguably, it was mainly a military phenomenon, but it was in extensive use nonetheless. Please see Eaton, Richard M. (2019). India in the Persianate Age: 1000-1765. Allen Lane. pp. 48-49. ISBN 978-0713995824.:

"What did the contours of the Delhi sultanate’s society in the thirteenth century look like? Contemporary Persian chronicles present a simple picture of a monolithic ruling class of ‘Muslims’ superimposed over an equally monolithic subject class of ‘Hindus’. But a closer reading of these same sources, together with Sanskrit ones and material culture, suggests a more textured picture. First, the ruling class was far from monolithic. The ethnicity of Turkish slaves, the earliest generation of whom dated to the Ghurid invasions of India, survived well into the thirteenth century. For a time, even Persian-speaking secretaries had to master Turkish in order to function. There persisted, moreover, deep cultural tensions between native Persian-speakers – whether from Iran, Khurasan or Central Asia – and ethnic Turks. (...) Such animosities were amplified by the asymmetrical power relations between ethnic Turks and Persians, often depicted in the literature as ‘men of the sword’ and ‘men of the pen’ respectively."

पाटलिपुत्र (Pataliputra) (talk) 07:43, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

This is a rather distorted version of what truly happened at Talk:Kushan Empire. Just checked that discussion - you were using poor sources, just like how you are doing today. You only agreed to not keep it only after you were called by several users several times. As for the Ghurids; that quote does still not justify that you added unsourced information back then (it's honestly quite baffling you can't see this, we've LITERALLY just been through this in regards to the diffs posted by KhndzorUtogh, just don't add unsourced info, it's really simple). And I'm not sure what you're trying to demonstrate by that quote, this still doesn't prove that Turkic had an administrative role military wise, it merely demonstrates that Persian secretaries had to learn Turkic to cooperate with the Turkic slaves, who also formed a ruling class. In other words, you are engaging in WP:OR/WP:SYNTH again - I also support a topic-ban from Central Asian, Iranic, and Turkic topics. HistoryofIran (talk) 12:06, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

This is again a mis-representation: this fact about the usage of the Turkish language in India was actually already sourced from Eaton in the Ghurid dynasty article ("Culture" paragraph [64]), and per Wikipedia:Manual of Style "References are acceptable in some cases, but generally not needed in infoboxes if the content is repeated (and cited) elsewhere" [65]. As for the role of the Turkish language in the Ghurid dynasty and the Delhi Sultanate, this was more I believe a matter of Persian secretaries having to learn Turkish in order to communicate better with their Turkic rulers. For example:

"Fakhr-i Mudabbir's remarks draw our attention to the linguistic and cultural distance between the lords and the members of the realm they governed, so much so that Persian-speaking secretaries -"the grandees of the highest pedigree"- had to master a "foreign" language to function as their subordinates. (...) So remarks like those of Madabbir refer to the advantages that knowledge of the Turkish language conferred upon a Persian subordinate in the service of the Delhi Sultanate."

— Chatterjee, Indrani; Eaton, Richard M. (12 October 2006). Slavery and South Asian History. Indiana University Press. pp. 86–87. ISBN 978-0-253-11671-0.

पाटलिपुत्र (Pataliputra) (talk) 13:33, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

...Except Turkic being an administrative language military wise is not sourced in the culture section, so the one doing the misrepresentation is still you. HistoryofIran (talk) 13:40, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

If I'm not mistaken, "Turkic being an administrative language military wise" is your own expression, and is a bit too specific. My only claim (if my memory serves me) was that Turkic was one of the current languages of the Ghurids, especially among the military [66] ("men of the sword", and later among the ruling elite of the Delhi Sultanate), which is exactly what Eaton says throughout (the two sources above, among many others available). On the contrary your blanking and edit summary [67] seems to deny any role for Turkic, and misrepresents Persian as being the only language around, which goes against academic sources. पाटलिपुत्र (Pataliputra) (talk) 15:35, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

That's literally what I said even back then along with more; "While the military was seemingly mostly Turkic by the late Ghurid period, that doesn't seem to have been the case in the early and if not mid Ghurid times. Regardless, that doesn't mean that Turkic had any role/status military wise.". So where is the part where I'm denying any role for Turkic and saying Persian is the only language? More WP:ASPERSIONS, you clearly didn't learn from your experience just with KhndzorUtogh (also, this is not the first time you have made WP:ASPERSIONS against me, eg [68]). Turkic slave soldiers speaking Turkic (shock!) means that that the language had a status in the Ghurid system? With your WP:SYNTH logic, we should starting adding "Turkic" to the infobox of about every medieval Middle Eastern dynasty (including the Abbasid Caliphate) due to the popularity and power of Turkic slaves, perhaps "North Germanic" to the Byzantine Empire due to the Varangian Guard, Persian to the Abbasid Caliphate due to their Persian bureaucracy and so on. I'll try to avoid to responding too much to your comments, I feel like there is more than enough evidence to warrant a topic ban. HistoryofIran (talk) 16:12, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

• Note: An IP, 105.113.71.169 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log), just blanked this discussion. Unsure if it's the subject or unrelated. — Czello ^(music) 07:16, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

Topic ban proposal for पाटलिपुत्र (Pataliputra)

The diffs provided above show that Pataliputra has repeatedly made original research and synthesis edits, and made personal attacks and casting aspersions even after being told to stop doing so. Multiple users have acknowledged the need for a topic ban and/or other sanctions. I propose a 6-month to 1-year topic ban for पाटलिपुत्र (Pataliputra) from Central Asian, Iranic, Turkic, Armenian, and Caucasus articles and a restriction on any image-adding. KhndzorUtogh (talk) 21:20, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

• Support as proposer. KhndzorUtogh (talk) 21:20, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose a general topic ban as the evidence provided has been weak. Would support a restriction on image-adding, however. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 10:23, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
• Support I was reflecting if I was being too harsh here. But then I once again realized, Pataliputra has engaged in WP:OR/WP:SYNTH and image spamming for YEARS. And when they try to justify/ignore it here and even resort to several WP:ASPERSIONS, that makes it hard to have WP:GF. If nothing happens, I think they will continue with this. I don't mind if the topic ban is less severe/decreased to less topics, but I don't think a image adding restriction alone will be enough. --HistoryofIran (talk) 13:50, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose TBAN, support restriction on adding images to articles, trout for WP:OR issues. As someone uninvolved who doesn't edit in this topic area, I see a relatively prolific editor with bad habits. If they don't stop adding OR to articles about churches further action should be taken, but I don't think there's enough here to merit a complete TBAN. There is more than enough evidence to show that they do not have good judgement on adding images though. BrigadierG (talk) 11:40, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

• Support per my above comment and provided evidences. Pataliputra was blocked for sockpuppetry in December 2017 and unblocked in June 2018.[69] Now they have a clean record and they just use their main account. So again, 6-month or 1-year topic ban could be helpful. Another point is their comments prove they think their edits were 100% OK. When a user refuses to accept his/her mistakes, then it is time for topic ban or block. Final warning or ultimatum does not work for cases like this especially since Pataliputra doing such stuff for years. They can edit other topics/articles and then appeal for unban after 6-month or 1-year. As for images, a strict restriction is necessary. --Mann Mann (talk) 12:08, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

• Support a topic ban as the first solution, or the image-adding restriction if the topic ban fails to get enough traction. This has gone on long enough & Pataliputra needs to start taking criticism of their edits on board. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 17:18, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

• Support (1 year) Uninvolved editor here. Have been following this for a while. A TBAN looks appropriate. Allan Nonymous (talk) 13:03, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

Jonharojjashi, part 2

Jonharojjashi (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

TLDR: These past months Jonharojjashi has been making disruptive off-Wiki coordinations to disrupt Wikipedia together with other users, many being socks/indeffed due to their disruption.

Since I had a screenshot of Jonharojjashi trying to recruit someone into their Discord group for Wikipedia coordination (which they outright denied [70], not the best choice when I have a literal picture, makes you look even more suspicious) I took it to ArbCom per WP:OUTING. They recommended me to come back here to ANI. I believe all these actions were done through the Discord.

These past months there have been a surge of "new" users making the same WP:TENDENTIOUS edits, making use of the same (poor/misused) sources, all in India-related (generally war/battle) articles, many of them being the exact same topic, including poorly written *insert Indian victory here* articles. Because of this, I initially made two SPIs against Jonharojjashi's and co. [71] [72], but they were mostly fruitless.

Jonharojjashi and the indeffed user Mr Anonymous 699

1. Both accounts created roughly three months between each other. Their EIU [73] shows some quite suspicious stuff, including them edit warring together at Muslim conquests in the Indian subcontinent and kinda repeating each other [74]. Another user who was edit warring with them in that article was Indo12122, a brand new user who is now indeffed (I'll get to that next sub-section).
2. Mr Anonymous 699 and Jonharojjashi also edit warred together at Kambojas in a WP:TENDENTIOUS manner [75]
3. At Kanishka's war with Parthia, Mr Anonymous 699 restored [76] the pov addition of Jonharojjashi.

Jonharojjashi and the sock Indo12122

1. As mentioned above, Indo12122 was also part of the edit warring efforts of Jonharojjashi and the now indeffed user Mr Anonymous 699 at Muslim conquests in the Indian subcontinent [77] [78] [79] [80]
2. After I reverted one of Indo12122's socks, Mr Anonymous 699 randomly reverted me at Chola invasion of Kedah [81]
3. Jonharojjashi made a WP:POVFORK variant of Kingdom of Khotan [82], trying to push a legendary story obviously not supported by WP:RS to Indianize the Kingdom of Khotan. Just coincidentally not long ago one of the socks of Indo12122 also attempted to Indianize the topic in the article itself [83]. More proof that this can't all be a coincidence.
4. When multiple concerns were made over the article at Talk:Chandragupta II's Campaign of Balkh (created by Shakib ul hassan), Indo12122's sock Magadhan3933 suddenly appeared and started defending it. Whats even more suspicious, Magadhan3933 (Indo12122) also created literally the same article Draft:Campaigns of Chandragupta II Vikramaditya two days after Shakib ul hassan, which was even randomly edited by Jonharojjashi [84] [85]

Jonharojjashi and the sock Shakib ul hassan

1. Jonharojjashi has a history of making poorly made/sourced POV battle/war articles which conveniently result in the (often decisive) victory for an Indian entity. They initially made such a poor article Vikramaditya's west Oxus valley campaign, which not only use similar citations (Muzaffar and Fodor who are not even WP:RS) as Chandragupta II's Campaign of Balkh by brand new user Shakib ul hassan, but even another user noted that they were quite similar in the comment of the former article; "This seems quite similar to Chandragupta II's Campaign of Balkh, is it the same campaign?".
2. Like Jonharojjashi, Shakib ul hassan also misuses sources, only using the part that satisfies their POV and omitting the rest of what it says as noted by me here [86] [87]. They also both randomly requiested the protection of Chandragupta II's Campaign of Balkh [88] [89] under the false reason of "vandalism" (I'm not sure they understand what the word means).
3. Brand new and now indeffed user HistoricPilled, is a sock of User:Thewikiuser1999, and has a very similar EIA [90] to all these users. As seen in the edit history of Maratha–Sikh Clashes, HistoricPilled and Shakib ul hassan build on each others edits for example. At Bajirao I, they edit warred together [91] [92].

Jonharojjashi and the sock Melechha and indeffed user Aryan330

1. Melechha created a wikitable in Ahom–Mughal conflicts [93], which was some days after promptly edited by Jonharojjashi [94]
2. Same here; Melechha creates a Wikitable at Luso–Maratha War (1729–1732) [95], then its heavily edited by Jonharojjashi [96]
3. And the same here again, Melechha creates a Wikitable at Dogra–Tibetan war [97], then heavily edited by Jonharojjashi [98]
4. Indeffed user Aryan330 and Melechha's sock EditorPandit edited warred at Maratha–Portuguese War (1683–1684) [99] [100]. Guess who joined them later? That is right, Jonharojjashi [101]
5. Melechha's sock Msangharak trying to save the then POV infested Kanishka's war with Parthia by Jonharojjashi after it got nominated for deletion [102] [103] [104] [105] [106]

Jonharojjashi and the sock Rowlatt11

Jonharojjashi more or less restored [107] the unsourced edit [108] by Rowlatt11's sock Daayush.

Closing remark

In made response to my previous ANI [109], Jonharojjashi made a ridiculous SPI [110] of me and many other users who had called them out for their disruption. Instead of addressing the points, they simply dismissed the whole report as "WP:HOUNDING" and "biting newcomers", so I'm not going to reply to their incoming comments here unless an admin wants me to.

There is no way that these all coincidences, how many indeffed users/socks have Jonharojjashi interacted with in such a short time? Especially when I have a literally picture of Jonharojjashi trying to recruit members and denying it. These indeffed users/socks are no doubt members of the Discord. Jonharojjashi and the Discord they lead should not be allowed to edit here. --HistoryofIran (talk) 21:59, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

So this is the third time HistoryofIran has distressed me with his unfruitful SPIs and ANIs, these several attempts made by them to indef me, shows how much they are craved. If they can't prove me doing On-wiki canvassing then they are trying to get me blocked for doing alleged off wiki canvassing. Nevertheless I'll again refute all the points made by historyofIran for me doing any kind of sockpuppetry or meatpuppetry.

"I believe all these actions were done through the Discord. Yes, you believe, I don't know what you have got to prove me doing Off-wiki canvassing but feel free to show all of those unsubstantiated evidence to ArbCom. And they will just shut your case just like your other cases were closed as those were nothing but unrelated call and two different users.

Anyone can claim that they have got some literal pictures and screenshots of tagging/meatpuppetry even the nom can furnish such pictures because as we know you and ImperialAficionado have been trying to indef me and don't know how many newcomers have been indeffed because of your teamwork (not defending the guilty but have seen them tagging on multiple occasions). Note that HistoryofIran has got some personal issues with me in the past so it's obvious that he'd form a prejudice towards me even though he has been proven wrong and caught of lying just to demean me. According to them, every article made by me is poorly written/sourced but he has been proven wrong multiple times and as I said even caught of lying.

Now coming to the HistoryofIran's attempt to link me with these indeffed accounts and previously these accounts were proven to be unrelated with me.

1. HistoryofIran himself yelled that the difference between the creation of my account and Mr. Anonymous 699's account is more than 3 months, considering such a huge gap doesn't even call for a suspicion that this account is somewhat related to me moreover a check user will confirm this. Anyone can spy and can see others' activity so it's no surprise that they have been following me and indulged in any edit warring. And what is pov addition of Johnrajjoshi? It's clearly a sourced addition which is still present in the article body of

Kanishka's war with Parthia Why are you still lying?

1. 2 Indo12122 and Mr. Anonymous 699 could be a pair of sock but to say that just because a sock account is related to another suspect doesn't mean that they could be related to me. In fact I was the victim of unattributed usage of my contents in Chandragupta II's Campaign of Balkha the creator of this page Shakib ul hassan copied my content without giving any attributions. This proves that these suspected users were spying on my works and even published their own article after copying mine without my consent and instead of grouping me with them, historyofiran should group these suspected users with themselves.
2. The wikitables created by Melechha were on the hot articles which means those articles are watched by hundred thousands per month so it'd be obvious that my and other wiki editor's attention would get there but to say that we are connected to each other through sockpuppetry is a baseless allegation and perhaps historyofIran has forgot about their tagging with ImperialAficionado and DeepstoneV and how they were tagging with each other on various occasions [111]. If I had done such coordinated taggings with these alleged suspected users then I'm sure historyofIran would have found more ways to get me indeffed. I had made a SPI on ImperialAficionado by showing how these users are tagging/allying with each other and have made a sect and group against newcomers.
3. more or less? Just stop suspecting me with some random sock users. There is a bold difference in these edits, in mine [112] I have edited it on the basis of Rabatak inscription whereas Rowlatt11 had cited a secondary source [113] I don't see any relation in it and besides Kanishka's religion is a hot topic of discussion so it'd be obvious that many user will do edits in it but that doesn't mean you'll now relate all of them with me, amusing enough that HistoryofIran is trying to relate me with any far distant user.

Jonharojjashi (talk) 19:30, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

A poor, cherrypicked response which barely addressed half the stuff I said. As I expected. HistoryofIran (talk) 21:03, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

And what's so cheery picked in it? Jonharojjashi (talk) 09:41, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

Editing issues of Jonharojjashi

I'm not getting involved in the discussion of sock/meat issues or behavioral problems, but I've encountered issues with two of their articles I attempted to verify with sources. One article I submitted for AFD and it was deleted (Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Extermination of Nagadhatta. )Today, I examined another article created by Jonharojjashi, Gauda–Gupta War, and found significant issues within it. While I addressed some of these concerns during the AFD (see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Gauda–Gupta War), the problems extend beyond a few isolated ones. While I've found several issues just within two of their articles, I'm concerned that other pages created by them may follow a similar pattern. I recommend a review of their articles.--Imperial^[AFCND] 17:34, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

I was not sure why Jonharojjashi restricted the timeframe of the Gupta–Hunnic Wars to 534, especially when there are sources (now cited by me) indicating that the conflicts extended until the fall of the Guptas in 550, largely due to White Hunnic invasions (with the result parameter likely favoring the Huns). It appears there may have been an effort to portray a "Gupta victory" by limiting the duration of the war, allowing the Guptas to appear successful in their final campaign up to 534. I have made a small major copyedit in the infobox section, by extending the duration to all the way upto the end of the war, and limiting the big list of the territorial changes to the final outcome of the territory. Issues have been addressed by tagging. Imperial^[AFCND] 18:51, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

A random user appeared at Gupa-Hunnic Wars, and reverted my edits; and replaced it with Gupta victory again [114], similar to Jonharojjashi, the user justified the reason by highlighting the upper hand of Guptas during an intermediate stage of the War [115]. Editor used poor sources; and ofcourse limited time period of the War, so it wasn't a heavy task to find a reason to revert. BUT! since then the user left, Jonharojjashi appeared the scene and reverted to his version (indeed time period limited to a definite time in such a way that could be counted as a victory for Guptas), and surprisingly made a request for protection of the page, accusing me and the above user being edit warred [116]. Made a comment on the talk section requesting us ro stop a non existing edit warring and didn't even give proper reasons for reverting to the version;nor said anything about the result parameter.[117]. --Imperial^[AFCND] 18:03, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Another brand new user appearing out of nowhere and doing the exact same as Jonharojjashi? Must be another random coincidence, and not anything to do with the Discord /s. HistoryofIran (talk) 22:24, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

Jonharojjashi and Malik-Al-Hind

Malik-Al-Hind (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

My god, can they make it less obvious?

1. Both Jonharojjashi [118] and brand new User:Malik-Al-Hind [119] use the obscure and poor source written by a non-historian Dictionary of Wars
2. Both fixiated on making poorly sourced WP:SYNTH war/conflict articles where the Indian part wins [120] [121]
3. Like Jonharojjashi [122], Malik-Al-Hind also tries to overinflate Gupta territory/history through source misuse (WP:SYNTH) [123] [124]
4. Both Jonharojjashi [125] and Malik-Al-Hind [126] are fixated on me not focusing on User:DeepstoneV. --HistoryofIran (talk) 12:35, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

Jonharojjashi and Sudsahab

Sudsahab (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

1. Both Jonharojjashi [127] [128] and indeffed user Sudsahab [129] use the incredibly obscure and obviously non-WP:RS by a non-historian Bharat's Military Conquests In Foreign Lands
2. Both make poorly sourced WP:SYNTH war articles with no source for the date of when it started, heck the start date doesnt even appear in the body/lead of the article [130] [131]. Notice that there are only a few days between the creation of the articles 2 March 2024 9 March 2024, this is not a coincidence that they both create an article related to a Saka "campaign/war". --HistoryofIran (talk) 12:56, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

Owning a page

• Maximilien Robespierre (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
• Taksen (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Encyclopédisme (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Hello. While I’m aware my own behavior on that page isn’t the best, it seems @Taksen: isn’t respecting Wp:Ownership of content. From the talk page archives of Maximilian Robespierre, he seems to want to make the article a paper about the opinion on Robespierre he made himself over the years. Currently I’m trying to start to edit the Legacy section, but he’s reverting small bits of the text nonstop without discussing any of it. A few months ago he didn’t want to accept that the article was too long, so he used the occasion and "reintroduced" a few deleted paragraphs, which @Nikkimaria: just removed again. He has the bad habit of going through every user’s contributions when someone starts a discussion on the Talk Page of the article, and he pretty much leaves at lest one message on every section of Talk. He contributed to the Robespierre article since 2019, most of his work is great, but he likes to disrespect some key rules. When I added some bits to the Legacy section, he didn’t like that, and removed content added without any bad intent mentioning French political parties (translated from fr.wiki), initially because it was "out of focus", then for "propaganda", and then he added an entire paragraph for one Chinese historian (with a link for the Peoples Republic of China, of course) with a source, deleted the source for the other problematic paragraph (old link) and a few hours later he removed it. (I added it again with a working link for the ref)

He continually wants to represent the pro-Robespierrist School as "Marxist" exclusively, a claim explicitly made the opposing Neo-liberal and revisionist School of the 1960s. The revisionist historian Furet gets an entire quote. My problem with this, and this is clear from previous interactions the user has had on the Talk Page of that article, he’s been editing it since 2019 and he doesn’t let anyone do it after him. If he’d just let go, and discuss, but no. Encyclopédisme (talk) 11:15, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

• I'm just passing by, but edit summaries like this are not doing any favors for you. I suggest taking a real hard look at WP:NPA and WP:BOOMERANG. Now that said, diffs like this and this followed by WP:STONEWALLING by @Taksen are even further over the line and show clear OWN issues. Intervention definitely needed here, Taksen is far over the line. BrigadierG (talk) 12:01, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
• Turning articles into rambling messes has been Taksen's specialty for years and years. Here's [132] what the Rasputin article looked like after years of Taksen-bloat, before others took the hatchet to it; and here (that section and several following) are the hit-head-against-brick wall attempts to get Taksen to understand. The conclusion (in that 2017 discussion) was to revert the article to a version from FOUR YEARS EARLIER, before Taksen got involved. Taksen's reaction here was characteristic. EEng 18:17, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

  Wow this is just a horrible way to interact with other editors. If he's been doing this for 7 years, I would honestly strongly consider an all-out WP:CBAN. BrigadierG (talk) 20:24, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

  Not for nothing, over at https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gebruiker:Taksen we've got Deze gebruiker is momenteel geblokkeerd. De laatste regel uit het blokkeerlogboek wordt hieronder ter referentie weergegeven: 23:54, november 2, 2018 Natuur12 overleg bijdragen heeft Taksen overleg bijdragen geblokkeerd voor de duur van onbepaald (aanmaken accounts uitgeschakeld) (Privacyschending). I need not translate. EEng 23:13, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

  @Nikkimaria: Now he’s literally "saving" (edit summaries) his content from Robespierre to Reign of Terror, Accusateur public and Legal history of France. Encyclopédisme (talk) 07:10, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

  Against my better judgement, I looked into this thread. My conclusion: Taksen is a menace and impossible to reason with. He is of the believe that any article he's edited significantly is owned by him. Something needs to be done, be it a partial block or a straight up indef. This is a behavioral problem going back the better part of a decade, clearly he isn't about to change. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 02:22, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

  don’t know how ANI works, but the other threads seem to be moving forward wayyyy faster than this one (they’re probably just more important anyway), and I wouldn’t like this thread getting archived without anything happening about it. Usually it takes around five days for stuff to get archived, Don’t know if this is completely unfounded or not, but I’m guessing it’s a bot doing the archival work here, too. Encyclopédisme (talk) 00:37, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

  You are correct that archiving is normally done by a bot. The way forward here would be to propose some form of sanction. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 16:12, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

• If he wants to own up to "mak[ing] the article a paper about the opinion on Robespierre he made himself", he's not doing himself a service. 15K words on one of/the most important figures in modern European history, and that's all we've got? A Bourbon wouldn't want to be associated with it. Your best bet, Encyclopédisme is to collect several knowledgable and collaborative editors, work on it in one of your sandboxes, take the finished, polished article to WP:FAC, let it receive a dissective review, get it promoted to Featured Article status, and then—finally—you'll have an actual, real Wikipedia policy behind you for purposes of future-proofing. À la lanterne, aristos!!code: fra promoted to code: fr ——Serial Number 54129 18:34, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

  I really just wanted to translate some bits of the French article in the Legacy section to en.wiki. It was decided the article was too long, by consensus, I didn’t participate in the discussion, I only read it on the Talk Page. Taksen doesn’t even allow that. If I had to rewrite the entire article, oh, that would be a drama. But I’m not doing that. (And from reading that section of the general policy, I don’t get why I’d need to). Encyclopédisme (talk) 18:44, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

  Then read it—again—but this time a view of shepherding an article. Which you seem to feel needs to occur to proect the page from Taksen. ——Serial Number 54129 11:08, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

Mainspace Ban for Taksen

• Hi, WP:UNINVOLVED editor here. It's clear that Taksen, is at best, not hearing the concerns of the community (heck, he hasn't even participated in this ANI), and at worst, failing WP:CIR. I think the best thing we can do for this is prevent him from editing any edits to mainspace articles. I feel he should still be allowed to suggest changes (and probably participate in talk pages, but not sure if that would overcomplicate restrictions), or edit possible drafts if he wants (so long as they get cleared by other editors before becoming public). Hopefully this will get him to hear the concerns. Allan Nonymous (talk) 04:46, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
• I'm uninvolved in the article which triggered this thread, but I've had plenty of experience with Taksen elsewhere. Separating him from actual article editing, so that he can't continue his relentless stuffing of endless, numbing detail into article after article, would be a start, and might provide just the filter he needs. EEng 16:46, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

  P.S. In case anyone has any doubts about whether Taksen should continue to run loose in article space, according to his user page this [133] is his idea of what the ideal Rasputin article should look like (as hosted on his personal website). EEng 17:54, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

  P.P.S. For the record, since this thread will no doubt be consulted should Taksen ask for his mainspace block to be lifted, on his personal website [134] we find Mijn belangstelling ging het meest uit naar de periode voorafgaande aan de Russische Februari Revolutie, niet die van Lenin en zijn makkers. Daarvoor heb ik Grigori Rasputin als kapstok gebruikt (My interest was most in the period leading up to Russia's February Revolution, not that of Lenin and his cronies. For this I used Grigori Rasputin as a coat rack). EEng 21:06, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

  He’s clearly not willing to do anything about this, rather he’s trying to save his work before it’s too late. Seriously, this is getting frustrating, really frustrating, it would be nice for him to participate in this discussion (if someone would talk to him on his talk page, that would be great). He readded content on Robespierre, again again again, and is stuffing Girondins and Reign of terror with deleted content from Robespierre… Legit, he’s doing that, right now, behind our backs, without discussing it. Encyclopédisme (talk) 17:08, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

  Is that a support for the mainspace ban? EEng 17:42, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

• I spent five years on the article as nobody else cared in those days. The article relied on English sources which is not such a good idea. It was decided the article was too long, but not by consensus, someone just dumped a template! She deleted a lot of referenced information, something I try to avoid. I prefer to save or hide it with the idea to add it somewhere else. Some people like to read what they already know, not me. I liked to work on the revolutionaries, looking for answers. I could not have written or improved articles on revolutionaries as Danton, Dumouriez and Chevalier de Saint-Georges which had 450,000 pageviews in April 2023 before the movie Le Chevalier came out.Taksen (talk) 17:49, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

  Um, OK, but is there anything you want to tell us about why you shouldn't be banned from editing articles directly? EEng 17:55, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

  Your talk page is still way longer than the article on Grigory Rasputin, which repeats what everybody knows or likes to hear. Many people add to the articles I started many years ago on Russian politicians, before the February Revolution. The reviewers on accusateur public really liked what I did, unfortunately I cannot find it back. Taksen (talk) 18:13, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

  @Taksen, that doesn't answer the question. Encyclopedisme, while also exhibiting some problematic behavior, has a reasonable point here which is being echoed by multiple other editors. I am taking it seriously. Valereee (talk) 18:37, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

  Let us stick to facts. Encyclopédisme wrote "When I added some bits to the Legacy section, he didn’t like that, and removed content added without any bad intent mentioning French political parties (translated from fr.wiki), initially because it was "out of focus", then for "propaganda". In my point of view, Encyclopédisme added three lf's without a reference to the information, ten hand written letters or concepts by Robespierre. For me the French Communist Party, etc. was totally irrelevant as it is not about Robespierre. Later I added a more information ref and a lf to the French Ministry of Culture which he did not. Taksen (talk) 19:12, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

  Wait. No… You, Taksen, literally removed my ref, (adding another ref on another part of the text in the mean while) the content was sourced, it was an just old link. Then you readded old content claiming that "it is not allowed to remove details with refs", then you removed my content (without a ref after your removal of the dead link) hours later, then I readded it with a working link, you reverted me (literally claiming it is "propaganda", that’s worse than "totally irrelevant"), I reverted you, and then you let it go and started "reintroducing" old deleted content, I told Nikkimaria, the content was condensed, you started "saving" (edit summaries) the content to other pages, then you ignored this ANI thread for days, now you just started "reintroducing" content to the Robespierre page again, and now you come here and ignore all of the rest. Seriously. Encyclopédisme (talk) 19:18, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

  We really don't care about content here at ANI. We care about behavior. The complaints here are about behavior. I'm interested, Taksen, in things like refusal to discuss edits you're making or reverting. What I'd like to see from you is a commitment to discussing changes before you make them on the talk pages of any article where you've been reverted. Valereee (talk) 19:22, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

  A block from article space works make that happen without further fuss. EEng 19:29, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

  Yes, I know. Valereee (talk) 19:31, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

  + 1 for a mainspace ban. Encyclopédisme (talk) 19:32, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

  The page "Main page ban" does not exist. You can create a draft and submit it for review, or you may create the page "Main page ban" directly, but consider checking the search results below to see whether the topic is already covered. Taksen (talk) 19:34, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

  And that, dear reader, epitomizes every interaction with Taksen for years and years and years. EEng 20:00, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

  Would you care to explain what your referring to, please? Encyclopédisme (talk) 19:36, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

  I wouldn't hold my breath if I were you. EEng 20:44, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

• p-blocked from article space for refusal to communicate in any reasonable way. Valereee (talk) 19:40, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

  Truth be told, it's an inability to communicate. EEng 20:01, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

  I am impressed with your archive. I see I can go on talk pages, which some people really like, not me. I have been here for eighteen years. I learned a lot from the English Wikipedia, which seem to be more tolerant than the Dutch, German, or Russian, but it is as most of the social media, addictive.Taksen (talk) 20:04, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

  You can appeal to unblock on your talk page. It’s not like your contributions aren’t valuable, but come on, understanding that things are discussed on this site isn’t too difficult of a principle (if you could use your personal judgment exclusively for content, the quality and control of Wikipedia would be absolutely miserable). Most people come back after 6 months or so, from what I’ve read. See you in that time, if you wish to come back. Encyclopédisme (talk) 20:16, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

  Very important in this case, after studying his life intensively, I stopped seeing Robespierre as a hero; civil armament was a bad thing to promote.Taksen (talk) 20:24, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

  Taksen, in all honesty, this has come to the point of… err, I mean I’m literally laughing my ass off in this very moment, I mean what should I say, I mean, uggghhhhhh… Taksen, please, if this is on purpose, then… err…….

  It’s ironic you mention that, Taksen.Encyclopédisme (talk) 20:28, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

  Anyway, you could consider coming back in a couple of months. Encyclopédisme (talk) 20:30, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

  He's not blocked from the site. He can participate on talk pages, and his mainspace block should remain until he's demonstrated the ability to collaborate that way. Mainspace privileges should not be restored just because he lies low for six months. EEng 20:43, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

  To be honest, his obvious lack of collaborative intent and incompetence to understand the point tells me he shouldn't be editing anywhere on the English Wikipedia at all. It's obvious he has a lousy combination of obstinance and poor English comprehension which makes him unsuitable for doing work here. oknazevad (talk) 20:47, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

  To be honest, I agree, but (a) you never know, people do sometimes smarten up, and (b) if not, a mainspace block is an easy way to allow him to show us for himself that he can't operate here. It would require lots of people to waste endless amounts of time to get us to a full block right now, to little additional benefit. EEng

  @Encyclopédisme, that is not okay. Valereee (talk) 21:01, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

  Is it violating good faith? I can say that I'm laughing my ass off, right? Without correlation to the other's comments? I didn't assume anything bad of Taksen, really. Anyway, noted. Encyclopédisme (talk) 21:02, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

  Begone! Before somebody drops a house on you, too! EEng 21:08, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

  Yes yes yes, quickly I begone, forget about my very existence, I’m an impertinent nobody, I’m none of your business, I’m not worth it, I’m gone forever, you’ll never hear of me again, … Encyclopédisme (talk) 21:13, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

  When you've gotten what you're asking for, there's no need to hang about smirking at the person you got in trouble. Just quietly disappear. EEng, someone once told me watching me edit a certain article was like watching a tornado pick up debris and set down a house. Probably the greatest compliment I've ever had on WP. Valereee (talk) 21:12, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

• Looking over this thread and some of Taksen's edits including their bizarre responses here, I don't really understand why there isn't a straightforward indef proposal. I'm not sure where it exactly sits: NOTHERE, uncollaborative, communication CIR. disruption, all of the above. One way or another they shouldn't be here. DeCausa (talk) 22:54, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

  Ah. Forget that. they've have been indeffed!! DeCausa (talk) 22:57, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

  Indeffed from mainspace only, as far as I can see. AndyTheGrump (talk) 23:04, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

  They are really valuable, and they seem to actually know their stuff. He deserves a chance, to a certain extent. Encyclopédisme (talk) 23:29, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

Bravehm

Bravehm (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

WP:TENDENTIOUS user that keeps attempting to remove/decrease the Mongol aspect of the Hazara (they even somewhat openly admitted it here if you ask me [135]), likely a sock [136], though the SPI might not come with conclusive results again.

1. At Talk:Hazaras, Bravehm blatantly lied that User:KoizumiBS removed sourced information [137], when they literally did the opposite, restoring sourced info (mainly about the Mongol aspect of the Hazara) removed by indeffed User:Jadidjw, whom I still believe to this day was a sock of Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Iampharzad, who has a long history of attempting to remove the Mongol aspects mentioned at Hazaras. Notice that Jadidjw didnt even protest against their indef block despite editing since 2021. They no doubt jumped to another account.
2. After clearly trying to ramp up 500 edits as fast as possible to get access to Hazaras, they immediately started removing sourced information and edit warring [138] [139]
3. Bravehm also blatantly lied here to justify their removal of sourced info about the Mongol aspect [140]
4. Removed sourced info about the Mongol aspect again [141] ("According other sources, the Hazara population speaks Persian with some Mongolian words.")
5. Same here [142]
6. And here [143]
7. And here [144]
8. And here [145]
9. And here [146]

--HistoryofIran (talk) 23:44, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

• I've left a CT notice on the user's talk page, noting that we still haven't heard back from them here yet. I also glanced through contribution history; they did hit 500 pretty quick, however most of the edits appear to have come in good faith insofar as they weren't adding or subtracting one or two syllables consistently to get to 500, however that doesn't per se rule out revoking the EC rights or alternatively page blocking them from the Hazaras article. TomStar81 (Talk) 00:28, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

  Another removal of information about the Mongolian component - diff. KoizumiBS (talk) 10:26, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

  Because Babur never said those words in his Baburnama, but the translator added it and it should not be taken as a source. please see Bravehm (talk) 13:22, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

  WP:CIR issues too. You've already been asked several times why the translators don't count as WP:RS, but you've been unable to, even changing your arguments as you please [147]. HistoryofIran (talk) 14:04, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

  Another attempt to minimize the Mongol aspect [148]. HistoryofIran (talk) 16:45, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

  I restored some of those changes that KoizumiBS brought. Hazares also have Turkic and Iranic aspects, why KoizumiBS attempt to minimize the non-Mongol and Turkic aspect of Hazaras.[149] Bravehm (talk) 19:10, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

  "HistoryofIran" wrongly and falsely considers my account to belong to "Iampharzad" while I only have this account and Iampharzad's account is not related to me in any way. Bravehm (talk) 09:09, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

  • According to Encyclopaedia of Islam, Hazaragi is a Persian dialect, which is infused with many Turkic and a few Mongolic words or loanwords.
  • According to Encyclopædia Britannica, the Hazara speak an eastern variety of Persian called Hazaragi with many Mongolian and Turkic words.
  • According to Encyclopaedia Iranica, the Hazaras speak a Persian dialect with many Turkic and some Mongolic words.
  • According other sources, the Hazara population speaks Persian with some Mongolian words.

  I only rm the last one due to repetition, incompleteness, and it only mentioned the Mongolian aspect. Bravehm (talk) 16:48, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

This (According other sources, the Hazara population speaks Persian with some Mongolian words.) removal was due to the duplication of info about Hazaragi, and its sources were not reliable as Encyclopaedia of Islam, Encyclopaedia Britannica, and Encyclopaedia Iranica. Bravehm (talk) 16:23, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

My discussion with KoizumiBS on the Talk page of article caused him to correct the erroneous info he had added in the article about the Mongol aspect of the Hazaras. See [150] Bravehm (talk) 18:31, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

@HistoryofIran: [151], [152]

They are not removal but restoration.

I don't know why you have taken a hard position against me and consider my every edit as something bad. As a user, I have the right to edit as you edit. Bravehm (talk) 19:47, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

Bravehm once again being dishonest, removing sourced info while saying it is "unsourced" [153]. WP:NOTHERE. --HistoryofIran (talk) 12:56, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

"More unsourced" not "unsourced"

I explained the reason: "No reliable census has been conducted in Afghanistan so far".

And there were no mentions of Aimaqs and Hazaras, which constitute the majority of Ghor residents but the majority of its inhabitants were almost Tajiks plaese see: [154] Bravehm (talk) 15:41, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

It's still not unsourced though... And your explanation is worthless, we follow WP:RS, not your personal opinion - you've already been told this. HistoryofIran (talk) 16:43, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

So "www.biorxiv.org" and "journals.plos.org" are also not WP:RS for this content "the Hazara population speaks Persian with some Mongolian words." Bravehm (talk) 17:41, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

References

Request for closure

Can an admin please take a look at this case? Bravehm is disrupting more and more articles as we speak [155]. They are WP:TENDENTIOUS and have clear WP:CIR issues, exactly like Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Iampharzad and co., they even all have the same English skills! --HistoryofIran (talk) 23:00, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

This (Iampharzad) account does not and does not belong to me.

User: HistoryofIran has taken a tough stance against me and wants to deny me the right to edit on Wikipedia. He reverses my edits and wants us to reach a consensus on the Talk page of the article, but when I am ready to discuss because of the consensus, he does not give me an answer on the page. Bravehm (talk) 23:46, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

They're still being disruptive as we speak, such as here where they manually reverted KoizumiBS and once again blatantly lied, accusing KoizumiBS of once again removing info but in reality due it themselves to decrease the Mongol aspect [156]. --HistoryofIran (talk) 22:18, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

It was just a restoration of sourced info deleted by KoizumiBS.

This's how I did it (Restored revision 1219713481 by WikiDan61 (talk): Please do not delete previous contents [157]) Bravehm (talk) 12:59, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

George Ho and non-free audio samples

George Ho (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Last week, I noticed that George Ho nominated a non-free audio sample for deletion. After seeing rather weak rationale ("skeptical about the sample's contextual significance" despite the article having sourced commentary suggested by the guideline, "album cover art already tells readers what to expect"), I decided to check the nominator's contribution and realized that over the past few years they nominated dozens upon dozens of non-free audio samples.

In early 2022, they organized an RfC regarding the use of audio samples in song articles, where the majority agreed that the use of non-free audio samples "significantly increase[s] readers' understanding of the article topic" (FWIW, even without sourced commentary). Nevertheless, George continued nominating audio samples for deletion, with a rather unique interpretation of "contextual significance". A few examples:

• "Song title and band name already suffice to guide users seeking the whole recording" despite the article including a sourced paragraph about song's composition. Why do we write articles at all? People can just search the song title and read books about it. Why are we struggling to find free photos? In all modern browsers it takes 3 seconds to select the title of an article, right click and press Search to see an image of it.
• "I hear just the chorus/refrain portion, but I think it makes readers more curious about what the full song sounds like and drives readers into seeking a full song"
• "A sample lasting twelve seconds especially to comply with MOS:SAMPLE's ten-percent limit is hard to contextually execute in order to help readers understand the whole song"

In November 2022, when George nominated files from a featured article, Ceoil confronted them about this issue (saying that George "seem[s] to be making up policy on the fly"; looking at the examples above I can agree with that assessment), to which George unexpectedly withdrew the nomination with comments "I didn't wanna admit being anti-samples" (emphasis is mine) and "I don't want my supposed conduct to be evaluated further". After looking at their nominations which resulted in deletion, I think I know why: a lot of them were files uploaded by blocked or otherwise inactive users (even in the examples above, one file is from a vanished user, one from an inactive user, and one from a blocked user), so they had no other comments and were subsequently deleted. Recently George told another editor to "avoid classic rock songs and Madonna songs. And maybe avoid songs or genres that certain users have been specializing in" to have better chances of deleting non-free covers, and to try renominating again in a few years if they fail. When confronted by Elli, George explained that they are doing this over "fears of misinforming and misleading general public" and that readers will see a cover art/listen to a short sample and won't research the topic further (if I understood correctly). And while their intentions might be good, achieving that through mass deletion of non-free media against the community's consensus, carefully choosing which files they nominate to avoid resistance, to me looks like tendentious editing, if not outright disruptive. AstonishingTunesAdmirer 連絡 18:00, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

Unfortunately, my attempt to get this editor to gain a true consensus for their edits has been unsuccessful. They seem devoted to this cause, both with removing audio samples and with removing non-free covers, regardless of what the broader community has to say. While some of their edits may be justifiable, their overall pattern of editing is not; trying to sneak deletions past editors they expect would be interested is not editing in good-faith.

Their argument when challenged on this is that the files they sent to FFD haven't been contested in all cases, but this is because they pick files they expect few people care about, and don't notify all interested parties (for example, after I challenged their CSD on a file, they then brought that file to FFD without notifying me... or anyone else). This is not a true consensus for their edits, it's an attempted end-run around the broader community. Elli (talk | contribs) 18:07, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, comments like "if you're not that passionate, then try to stay out of my hair please, including areas that I'm interested in" (a violation of WP:OWN policy) clearly show that the user is not interested in any kind of consensus building. AstonishingTunesAdmirer 連絡 22:30, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

That comment is definitely suboptimal, and is in the same neighbourhood of the sort of comment that tends to indicate low-level ownership issues. That said, regarding much of the rest of the complaints raised here by yourself and Elli (and following my own limited follow-up on the involved discussions), I have to say that the majority of this looks to concern a content dispute (or better put, a series of content disputes). I just do not see the argument for disruption or other violations of policy that would suggest the need for a report on conduct in a behavioural forum like this. NFCP adherence is a pretty important principle, and arguably the consequences and potential knock-on effects of a laissez-faire approach are more pronounced with regard to content that touches upon the intellectual property of the music recording industry than they are for any other media industry. As such, I don't think it's surprising that some editors are going to adopt a more conservative view of such questions.

WP:NFC#CS is currently very vaguely worded, and when combined with the overall subjectivity of the question of what degree of empirical knowledge a sample brings to the readers understanding of the stylistic/aesthetic qualities of an album, I think we can fairly describe this as a "reasonable minds may vary" area. Further, examining the discussions you cite, the RFC in question is a bit of a confused mess as to who is advocating for an inclusion criteria that permits inclusion of samples only with significant supporting textual discussion (with an open question as to what would constitute 'significant' in that context), who supports such content irrespective of a supporting textual framework, and who is advocating for a general proscription of such content. Nor does the RfC, despite a formal close, seem to have resulted in an actual amendment to the policy itself. Regarding the three discussions you reference with selected quotes in the middle of your OP, all three involved a 1:1 !vote--George proposing a deletion and one other editor !voting keep. I'm sorry, but to my eye, labeling George's input, which simply happens to move in a direction contrary to your read on the situation as "IDHT" is rather a stretch.

Finally, the last two comments of George's which you reference, far from being examples of "tendentiousness" are clear examples of him telling other editors essentially that "I don't agree with the prevailing view, but rather than continue to double-down in these cases, I suggest letting the matter go, and revisiting them only after some significant amount of time has passed, if there is a change in consensus, or if they are cases with unique circumstances". In other words, these seem to be pretty clear cut examples of the very opposite of tendentiousness/not letting go of the WP:STICK.

Yeah, I'm sorry, but I followed every link in your opening report, and a number of intersecting discussions, and I don't see very much support for your belief that George is approaching the underlying content question here with anything other than a good faith intent, a relatively open mind, or with anything but the project's best interests in mind. I certainly don't see widespread disruption needing the community's intervention. I'd want to see a lot more than you've presented here before I for one felt comfortable endorsing even a warning in this area: we should not be chilling speech which argues for an abundance of caution when it comes to non-free content on the free encyclopedia, unless the feedback is in some way truly disruptive and abusive. And bluntly, to bring it back around to where I started my analysis, what I see here is a legitimate difference of opinion on how to apply an extremely subjective standard, on a very controversial editorial question, with very significant potential impacts for the project.

But yes, all of that said, the "if you're stating your dispassion for this area, maybe you should just not have such a strong opinion on this policy issue." is an irrational argument, and I'd advise George to avoid that one at least. SnowRise ^{let's rap} 22:56, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

@Snow Rise, AstonishingTunesAdmirer, and Elli: I thought about striking that comment out, but I was awaiting admin response. That was wrong of me to say what I wrote, and I shouldn't have implied ownership, regardless of whether it is part or full. I was frustrated by Elli's unwillingness to use a DRV process, and I was uncertain whether I'll accept Elli's unawareness of FFD discussions (like one I made recently) as a good excuse to not participate in those discussions. Still, no excuse for what I said directly to Elli. Elli is welcome to participate in FFD and DRV processes, but I'm unsure whether I should invite those involved and those who contributed to a file (other than its uploader). —George Ho (talk) 00:08, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for your reply! I, too, saw it as a content dispute, until they started telling another editor to avoid specific genres and artists. I'm sorry, but I really don't see that being in good faith. If they have strong, proper arguments, why not challenge files in those areas too? I then went through every audio sample George nominated for deletion this year (so far) and I made a list of uploaders. Here are my findings:

List of uploaders of non-free audio samples George Ho nominated for deletion this year (so far)

Wikipedia:Files for discussion/2024 January 10 3× User:Guerilla In Tha Mist – inactive since 2008 Wikipedia:Files for discussion/2024 January 29 User:Mysekurity – inactive since 2020 Wikipedia:Files for discussion/2024 February 22 User:100cellsman – active Wikipedia:Files for discussion/2024 March 13 Wikipedia:Files for discussion/2024 March 14 4× User:Rm w a vu – 2 edits this year, 14 edits in the last 5 years Wikipedia:Files for discussion/2024 March 24 2× User:Chrishm21 – active Wikipedia:Files for discussion/2024 March 25 User:Andi064 – blocked indefinitely User:DCGeist – blocked indefinitely User:Mardochaios – 0 edits this year, 15 edits in the last 5 years Wikipedia:Files for discussion/2024 April 1 2× User:Crashandspin – inactive since 2012 User:Epbr123 – blocked indefinitely 2× User:DCGeist – blocked indefinitely User:Samorchard – inactive since 2011 2× User:Seer10J – inactive since 2020 Wikipedia:Files for discussion/2024 April 16 User:AdamjVogt – inactive since 2008 User:RTSthestardust – active User:The lorax – (somewhat) active User:Epbr123 – blocked indefinitely Wikipedia:Files for discussion/2024 April 22 User:Skyshifter – active Wikipedia:Files for discussion/2024 April 27 User:FrickFrack – (somewhat) active

So they admit they're carefully choosing which files they nominate and then the majority of uploaders (this year) happens to be inactive or indefinitely blocked? AstonishingTunesAdmirer 連絡 00:41, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

Well, personally, I don't believe any choice to avoid genres and artists that they suspect would be more likely to lead to contentious discussions can be properly viewed as a bad faith activity. There's an element of WP:VOLUNTEER here, afterall: if an editor genuinely believes they are applying policy appropriately, I wouldn't consider it gamesmanship if they nevertheless elected not to try to force the issue on certain articles they believe are more likely to lead to disputes--especially if they genuinely believe (correctly or incorrectly) that there is gatekeeping going on with respect to some of those genres or artists. If they want to instead make nominations on what we might call the low hanging fruit first with their limited editing time, that is their prerogative as I see it. Afterall, each of these nominations is still handled through the normal (and highly visible) process, and there is equally as much open opportunity for the community feedback, irrespective of the genre or artist.

Now, as to whether George is curating their selections to lean towards the submissions of now-inactive editors, I'm not sure how much that would change my opinion of the matter. But putting that question to the side for the moment, I don't think you've really provided a particularly statistically compelling argument that this is what George is doing, anyway. Taking out your descriptors, basically what I see in your compiled data set is that, out of 17 editors who contributed files that George has nominated for deletion in the last 4 months, 11 have since become inactive or blocked. Honestly, considering that currently active editors represent only a small fraction of the project's historically active editors, and that the majority of all media files uploaded are many years old, that split doesn't sound particularly suspicious to me. It could also very easily be an artifact of the the particular articles/files that George happened to be working with, for any number of legitimate reasons relating to how he ended up in those particular spaces.

So, given the sample size and multitude of explanations here for what appears to be a pattern to you, as an intuitive and impressionistic matter, I still don't see very compelling evidence of bad faith. Is it outside the realm of possibility that George is making these selections strategically? No, not at all--your intuition may be correct. But is there very strong affirmative evidence of gamesmanship in this data set? No, I don't see that in the evidence presented so far, I'm afraid. SnowRise ^{let's rap} 01:49, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

I don't believe my intuition is particularly strong. I just asked myself: how did they manage to delete so many files? Is Wikipedia really full of illegitimate audio files? And the answer was: FfD defaults to "delete" if nobody challenges them. Then I asked myself: how come (almost) nobody challenges them? Did everyone just accept that the files they uploaded were against the guidelines? And why many of the kept files were kept only because this one editor challenged them, rather than the uploaders? I wanted to go through every nomination, as previously seeing many of them I believe the results would be similar, but I'd rather not waste time in case that's not big enough sample size. As to whether or not that's a problem... Well, I don't know what to tell you. I guess we need to update Special:Upload to say that your files will be deleted the moment you stop editing? AstonishingTunesAdmirer 連絡 03:00, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

Well, we might as easily invert the presumed burden there: why should a file gain some degree of protected status or presumption of procedural vulnerability just because the original uploader is no longer active? George didn't use some surreptitious, atypical venue or method for recommending these files for deletion; he used listings at the normal, valid forum, in full view of the normal review process, open to any volunteers contributing to that space. Those processes don't require input from the original uploader, nor would such editors have any special status in such discussions anyway. And as far as I can tell from reviewing the FfD discussions over the period in question, the vast majority of such files did not benefit from their original uploaders commenting--which is unsurprising because, as noted previously, statistically most of them are probably not active with the project any more.

For that matter, looking at other (non-George Ho-nominated) discussions during the same period, there's a rather non-trivial number of nominations that processed without a single objection. You ask "Is Wikipedia really full of illegitimate audio files?" Well, I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "illegitimate"; it's not a policy term, or even one which lends itself particularly accurately and neutrally to any policy distinction in this area. But if you are asking "Is Wikipedia really full of audio files which are either debatably or certainly subject to deletion under policy?", the answer is clearly "Yes." I have no idea how large or small a portion of the overall uploaded audio files they constitute--I suspect they are an exceedingly small percentage, but I don't contribute nearly enough in this area to have either an impressionistic or empirical estimate--but just playing the numbers game, surely there is an appreciable need for some degree of clean-up. I mean, just eyeballing the very pages you have linked above demonstrates as much: there are quite a few nominations in the average day of those logs, and the large majority seem to pass. And the vast majority have no involvement from George as far as I am seeing.

So again, I'm just not seeing any compelling evidence of bad-faith behaviour from George here. I'm not sure that even if he were picking files with fewer 'built-in' advocates that this would even constitute a form of gamesmanship, let alone one that constituted a violation of policy. But let's assume just for the moment that we had already debated that point and come to agree that it was in some way inappropriate. Even then, there's been no particularly compelling evidence presented to establish that this is in fact what George is doing--and I for one can only AGF on these facts. Mind you, I did note upon a review of George's user page that they have historically had a couple of administrative blocks, as well as an ArbCom designated ER. So I did have an extra little bit of a critical eye when reviewing their contributions in this matter.

But even with that extra inclination towards caution, I just am not seeing evidence of inappropriate conduct here--other than the one comment I first responded to here, and which George has since acknowledged and discarded. I'm sorry, but if there is misconduct or policy violations in the way George has approached this area, I'm just not seeing it. this seems to be a case of a legitimate difference of editorial opinion in how to apply a highly subjective standard in part of the NFCP. SnowRise ^{let's rap} 02:04, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

• If an editor is trying to be sneaky and quietly backdoor their preferred enforcement of consensus (or lack of consensus) then a topic ban is the typical solution. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 23:22, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

  @Dennis Brown: Was I sneaky and quietly backdoor[ing] their preferred enforcement of consensus (or lack of consensus)? George Ho (talk) 00:13, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

  That is for the community to decide. It sounds like that is what is being alleged, and you didn't engage in discussion so much as nominate media that was not highly visible. I just said if that is the case, then a topic ban would be in order. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 00:31, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

Disruptive reverting by IP 2604:2DC0:101:200:0:0:0:1B1D

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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This IP has reverted edits without citing reliable sources; claiming that under Sharia homosexuality is punishable by death in the UAE, although the constitution removed Sharia punishments after 2020. This IP also reverted other ‘bad’ edits, claiming that they apply to the whole source. This user might also be a sock account of Jacobkennedy. ElephantMario (talk) 12:27, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

OP blocked as a sock.--Bbb23 (talk) 12:56, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Uncivil user across multiple articles with history of harassment and/or personal attacks

Hi, I posted this at WP:ANB mistakenly a few days ago. Sorry.

I tried to make an edit at 2024 Women's Six Nations Championship on 21 April 2024‎ and was reverted by User:Mikey'Da'Man, Archangel. I requested on the article talk page that they discuss the matter with me, 2024 Women's Six Nations Championship#Request for discussion, and left a talkback to that request on their user talk page here. When I hadn't heard from them in 7 days, I left another talkback. When they still had not responded in 3 days, I tried the edit again and they only responded after I said i would have to report them here if they kept being disruptive. The user left these edit's but began bullying other users in the edit summaries (here). The user has also been like this on other pages and in deleted revisions on their talk page. I admit I probably could have handled the situation better but I am now wondering what I can do as I feel the other user is bullying others away from articles and claiming ownership (here). In my post at WP:ANB, another user pointed out that Mikey'Da'Man, Archangel was warned for personal attacks, blocked, and then unblocked with cautioning Mikey'Da'Man, Archangel to carefully avoid repeating the kind of behavior that led to the initial block. They suggested WP:5P4 being something that can't be ignored and pointed out this on a another talk page (here)

Once again sorry for posting in (what I think) was the wrong place. LouisOrr27 (talk) 00:58, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

Further examples of behaviour across various pages.

[158], [159], [160], [161], [162], [163], [164], [165] - LouisOrr27 (talk) 01:20, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

They are now edit-waring with another user at 2024 Women's Six Nations Championship. LouisOrr27 (talk) 22:50, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Given the prior block, repeated instances of incivility and personal attacks, and the edit-warring, I have blocked the account indefinitely. Daniel Quinlan (talk) 06:48, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

Legal threat Blaze The Movie Fan

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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User:Blaze The Movie Fan seems done with it all after decades here, and they seem vocal about it. Their misery has apparently led to them retiring from the site for good two days ago, per their user page. Now, they have seemingly threatened legal action threatened to force their retirement and blanking of contributions from the site if demands aren't met in five days—which I don't quite understand, timeline-wise. But their legal threat and doubling-down seems clear in any case. Remsense诉 08:40, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

The L word was accidental I never meant to use it in the first place. Blaze The Movie Fan (talk) 08:46, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

I'm very confused, where have you been threatened with a block or ban for asking for advice? If you are here to read and not edit, then do so- nothing is preventing this. Once you click "publish changes", the edit belongs to Wikipedia and will not be removed just because you want it to be. 331dot (talk) 09:01, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

I think this user may be in distress for the moment. What I think he is asking for here is for his revisions to be redacted (which I don't think is possible) and for him to be renamed and his talk page deleted. I think it might be worth explaining what a digital footprint is here. Fantastic Mr. Fox (talk) 09:13, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

Redaction is probably not possible, but WP:VANISH is an option as far as I know. 331dot (talk) 09:16, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

I'd note though that the RTV is generally more difficult if an editor is blocked or banned so I strongly suggest Blaze cut out on posting random complaints and comments all over the place. Nil Einne (talk) 09:22, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

I've taken their explanation in good faith and struck the characterization of a legal threat. Remsense诉 09:17, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

It could also, on another thought I just had, mean someone else has lockpicked his account and wants to cause as much damage as possible by making it WP:VANISH Fantastic Mr. Fox (talk) 09:19, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

Also this implies the account has been compromised before. Edit: Actually was not, as was confirmed here Nobody (talk) 09:26, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

(edit conflict) No it was never compromised. It's just that the edit that lead to the block [166] was so surprising people incorrectly thought it was [167] Nil Einne (talk) 09:41, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

After reading this edit. To me it looks like they just don't like the current state of Wikipedia. Nobody (talk) 09:47, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

This edit might give a little insight. Nobody (talk) 09:17, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

Blaze was told their use of the helpme template wasn't right here [168] and here [169]. None of the replies came even close to threatening a block or ban although it is technically true if an editor keeps using the helpme inappropriately, and especially if they are not otherwise contributing productively, they're likely to be blocked the same with any other persistent inappropriate behaviour. Notably, persistently trying to overturn a 12 year old block of some other editor [170], is likely to be disruptive wherever on wikipedia you do it. (What an editor does on Youtube of course, is unlikely to be our concern.) Nil Einne (talk) 09:35, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

To be clear, I'm not suggesting a block anytime soon, I'm just pointing out it was reasonable enough for other editors to tell Blaze to not use the help template like that. Blaze seems to have read into people telling them not to use the template in that way as threats of blocks which is sort of true since a block may eventually result, but it's likely to be far off. Perhaps the editor is particularly sensitive to blocks, given their history, but there is a big difference to vandalising one of our most high profile BLPs with offensive commentary [171] and their recent behaviour. The vandalism was well worth an instant block, their recent behaviour should stop but isn't likely to lead to a block that quickly. Nil Einne (talk) 09:35, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

I am convinced there is more than meets the eye here. Is it possible for someone to request a check user here? Fantastic Mr. Fox (talk) 09:38, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

I disagree, I don't think there's anything that is implausible to attribute to a particular individual's particular personality. 'twould be fishing imo. Remsense诉 09:40, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

That's why I haven't done it personally, I may just have cold feet from this [172] incident Fantastic Mr. Fox (talk) 09:44, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

Yes going by comments like [173] and [174],it seems clear Blaze hasn't been happy with our content and I think our behavioural policies and guidelines for a long time and has wanted to stay away but as with a number of editors, is having trouble doing so and keeps coming back then being reminded that they don't like it here. I don't think there's much we can do to help them. 10:04, 6 May 2024 (UTC) Nil Einne (talk) 10:04, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

• Yes, I explained to an administrator that it was per this discussion, although have not replied yet. Although Primefac was absolutely correct to state they had not been threatened with a block or ban, BTMF may have read that to contain an unarticulated 'but...' Many would, I expect.
  Mind you, BTMF has since gone slightly radio rental: apart from the discussion on their talk and on WT:AN, they've also hit up WP:AAR and the Ref Desk. Blimey. ——Serial Number 54129 12:22, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
• I added a note at the XRV report you filed that sums it up, Blaze The Movie Fan, but maybe we need to close this ANI report and the XRV report, and maybe work from your talk page. I don't think you are at your best right now, and maybe it is better to dial back the exposure and drama, and discuss things there on your own talk page. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 12:30, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

  Agreed. Remsense诉 12:50, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

• Just a followup: SN54129, isn't it a no-no to comment on other editors' possible rental conditions? EEng 02:24, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

Request for Investigation of User:Saqib

Hey there, I submitted my articles for publication Hook (2022 TV series) and Wonderland (Pakistani TV series) and were accepted for publication by the reviewer User:ToadetteEdit but he reverted the drafts despite accepting that article cites reliable sources as expressed here [User:Saqib]] has misused the rights as reviewer and is biased in his judgments as expressed in User_talk:Liz#Request_for_Investigation_of_User:Saqib. He also added multiple articles for deletion without giving proper rationale. He accused me as a logged out User:BeauSuzanne and discourages me to edit. I requested administrators but I feel so demotivated. Kindly look into his actions and do something. In hope for a just outcome. Thank you! 182.182.97.3 (talk) 15:36, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

First off, none of the BLPs created by this IP have been nominated for deletion, so I'm not sure why they're getting worked up over those deletion nominations? Were they socking? I brought up the issue of both these articles to User_talk:ToadetteEdit#Hook_(2022_TV_series) and when others agreed with me that the sources being used on these two pages are not reliable at all. After that, I thought it would be better to move them back to the draft NS instead of nominating them for deletion. I don't know what all the fuss is about. Also, I have a hunch this BeauSuzanne is the same as these IPs. @Drmies: warned @BeauSuzanne not to edit while logged out, but this IP range keeps doing that and even participating in AfDs to WP:GAME. —Saqib (talk | contribs) 15:45, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

Who others agreed? The reviewer doesn't agree with moving them back to the draft. Plus you accepted that articles does contain reliable sources then why ignoring them while reviewing? And as far as IP issue is concerned, it's explicit that I have nothing to do with BeauSuzanne. And I can vote if I'm editing on Wikipedia.182.182.97.3 (talk) 15:52, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

I am involved in this case so I will tell the following.

• A few weeks ago or so I reviewed the Wonderland article as part of the AfC. The ip later approached me saying that it was tagged for notability, so I went to it and to much of my surprise it was reviewed by an editor and left the tag. I told them to find sources that could establish notability and thats it.
• A few days ago I reviewed the Hooks article seein that the spurces listed are reliable enough to warrant the draft an article. Not so long, yesterday Saqib approached me telling about my reviews of the two accosiated with reliable sources and sock farms regarding Pakistani media. I questioned them and they gave me an answer that most of the sources are unreliable. S0091 also approached and explained some of these sources. Today that same ip came to me on Saqib's bold draftifications and nominating some articles for deletion. They also came to Liz's talk and later here. I've asked for clarification and I havent yet explained.

For the sake of this, I won't be reviewing those two drafts due to problems arising on me. Toadette^Edit! 16:14, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for sharing your thoughts! Just a friendly heads-up, when reviewing drafts in the future, if you ever come across an article with source you're not too sure about, it might be a good idea to hold off on giving it the green light. It just so happened that I stumbled upon these two pages by chance; otherwise, they might have gone unnoticed like hundred others. These IPs have a bit of a reputation for churning out pages and even BLPs on non-notable actors with questionable sources through AfC and then someone (probably unintentionally) moves them to the main NS. Moving forward, I'll be keeping an eye on them through WP:NPP. We can't undo what's already been done but we can definitely make sure we're not letting any more questionable articles slip through the cracks. Regards! —Saqib (talk | contribs) 16:26, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

You're reviewing the whole situation as you have done nothing. There has been a biasedness exercised by you, if the articles were not notable, you could've tagged them but you chose to move them back. I can add more sources to both the articles and let another reviewer review it cause you have some sort of agenda against Beausuzanne and you targeted me because of it. 182.182.97.3 (talk) 16:34, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

ip, you should not be saying this, and I am advising you to stop accusing editors as it is often unkind and may be a personal attack. Toadette^Edit! 16:38, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

To be honest, I've never really patrolled WP:NPP before, but after giving it a go, I was surprised to see just how many unwarranted pages are being created. Indeed, I'm firmly against anyone who violates policies for monetary gain. —Saqib (talk | contribs) 16:39, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

And what about his accusations? 182.182.97.3 (talk) 16:45, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

I have started a discussion with the IP and anyone else who wishes to join at Draft talk:Hook (2022 TV series) to identify sources that establish notability and will do the same for Draft:Wonderland (Pakistani TV series). S0091 (talk) 17:19, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

This SPI was just closed but I have asked the CU to open it back up for behavioral evaluation. I have not seen so many DUCKS coming from LOUTSOCKing until now. --CNMall41 (talk) 19:49, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

Not here user

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

NOTHERE. See [175]].  // Timothy :: talk  19:11, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

They've been locked by @EPIC NW1223<Howl at me•My hunts> 19:15, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

Epic rv the problem, but isn't an admin. User hasn't been blocked. I realized I posted here instead of and not AiV, sorry about that.  // Timothy :: talk  19:26, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

Globally locked so the point is moot. 92.11.18.157 (talk) 19:31, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

(edit conflict)EPIC is a steward. This means that they have the power to lock accounts and prevent them from loging in. NW1223<Howl at me•My hunts> 19:32, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

Thanks all :)  // Timothy :: talk  19:38, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:Dustfreeworld using comments inappropriately during content dispute

Recently there was (a now-seemingly-resolved) content dispute on the page Suicide methods over whether or not an image should be placed in the lede to provide access to a suicide prevention hotline. During this, the user Dustfreeworld (talk · contribs) has repeatedly added variations of the following in the source for the page to deter other editors from changing their preferred version of the lede:

<!-- This image was added because [[WP:NOTHOWTO]]. Wikipedia is “not an instruction manual or guidebook”. We are not here teaching people how to kill themselves. Please don't remove. Thanks. -->

I have been twice accused of edit warring by a tag team of the aforementioned user and WhatamIdoing (talk · contribs) for removing these comments. I'm not sure what should be done, but using comments -- repeatedly, I might add -- in this manner is incredibly inappropriate. wound theology◈ 20:19, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

How is this anything more than a content dispute? AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:49, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

Specifically, the HTML comments implying it would be against policy to change the page. I'm not referring to the actual image which I think is fine in its proper place, but the addition of HTML comments that purport to reflect sanctions or consensus or something else that would prevent other editors from modifying the page. wound theology◈ 21:09, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

In other words it is a dispute about the appropriateness of hidden text in an article. I'd call that a content dispute, if a rather odd one. Neither 'urgent' nor an 'intractable behavioral problem'. Try dispute resolution if you can't agree amongst yourselves. AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:21, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

@AndyTheGrump, behaviorally, we might be able to sustain charges that the OP is edit warring, but not yet at the 3RR level. [176][177][178][179]

See also User talk:Wound theology#Edit warring exceptions (which was just removed), in which the OP appears to claim that he is "reverting to enforce certain overriding policies" and therefore should be exempt from the edit warring rules. (No specific "overriding policy" has been named.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:09, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

How about trying dispute resolution, rather than looking for 'charges' to 'sustain'? Regardless of who is right over the note, it seems a daft thing to get in a tizzy over. AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:27, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

A hidden comment does seem like a strange thing to be edit-warring over, much less to start an ANI thread over, but perhaps the OP thought that ANI would be a more agreeable audience. The OP didn't request my advice on whether this would be a pointful exercise or have their desired outcome. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:17, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

User:Notgain repeatedly violating WP:REFVAR

Notgain (talk · contribs) has been repeatedly violating WP:REFVAR, ineptly trying to change all the <ref> tags in Neuro-linguistic programming to {{sfn}} templates. Whenever they do it, they break multiple citations (34 one time, 13 the next) and leave the article in a broken state. I've pointed them to WP:REFVAR, which says they must get consensus before changing the referencing style, but apparently they can't hear that. Could someone please talk to them or give them a short block so they understand they need to listen and follow WP:REFVAR? Skyerise (talk) 22:27, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

As I have explained numerous times to Skyerise, the existing referencing was a complete mess. A block is unnecessary. I have reviews WP:REFVAR. The page in question had many issues - it had quotes and text that was clearly paraphrased or pasted from sources without page numbers or proper attribution. References were defined in multiple locations. There was a mixture of referencing styles. The source was incredible difficult to follow. To make it easier to fact check and verify, I started what I thought was fixing referencing. When i first did it, I tried to do section by section but was reverted midstream which caused more errors because of edit conflict. I now have a tool to check referencing syntax before publishing. Skyerise just needed to nessage me to discuss, not escalate to accusations of deliberately disruptive editing and then threatening to block me for some citation syntax errors that I was trying to correct. —-Notgain (talk) 22:56, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

This is not true. The article used all <ref> tags, here is the version of the article from 23:27, 26 April 2024. It has no {{sfn}} templates at all. No broken citations, nothing wrong with it at all. The sfn templates were all first introduced by Notgain after they began editing the article on 03:26, 28 April 2024. Again, I quote WP:REFVAR: "Editors should not attempt to change an article's established citation style, merely on the grounds of personal preference or to make it match other articles, without first seeking consensus for the change." Point me to the consensus that resulted from seeking it on the talk page first, or seek it on the talk page now; but right now, since I don't agree that the referencing style should be changed, you don't have the consensus required to do it. Skyerise (talk) 23:07, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

As you are well aware I posted on the relevant article talk page and discussed any controversies content edits at length seeking consensus. I posted specifically about the referencing style on relevant talk page. I also explained to you what happened when you reverting midstream and used edits comments. I corrected the majority of syntax. I read the Wikipedia referencing policy again - thank you. —Notgain (talk) 23:21, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

Obviously, I am opposed, and you have no other support on the talk page. When two editors disagree, the article remains at the status quo. You have no consensus: it's not sufficient just to seek it, you must obtain it. Skyerise (talk) 23:27, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

To be fair, as someone who has been monitoring Neuro-linguistic programming for a while, I don't quite think this citation syntax dispute rises to the level of being a "urgent incident or a chronic, intractable behavioral problem" which is what ANI is for. This probably should've been settled on a talk page somewhere. 〜 Askarion ✉ 23:35, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

That was tried first: User_talk:Notgain#WP:REFVAR. Skyerise (talk) 23:45, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

I believe there has been an unintentional mischaracterisation of my intentions and editing style. Skyerise claims there was no issues with the references and claim no {{sfn}} prior to my edits. However if you examine the diff before I started editing, there was a mixture of citing styles. For example, there were forteen instances of {{efn|...}}, and five instances of {{r|.... It was also a mess and very difficult to read and verify the references. There were quotes mixed in with {{cite|...}} instances. Pages numbers were missing for quotes and for obvious paragraphing without pages numbers (wikipedia should summarise, not paraphrase). Other references were unsupportive or only vaguely of the statements attributed. The biggest problem was that there were multiples of the same citation defined in multiple locations. Also, I had raised the issue of references on the associated talk page which was before Skyerise escalated the issue to asking ANI to block me and requested higher page protection. I believe this was unreasonable on Skyerise's part. The editor also posted warnings on my talk page that I was going to be blocked without warning if I continued to "editing disruptively". In all communications with Skyerise, I have been polite and tried to explain my reasons. I have sought consensus on the talk relevant page for nontrivial edits. I didn't realise copyediting or fixing references would be so controversial However, I think you need to understand it has been a hostile environment on the talk age, recently some of edit suggestions were remove, they were restored by a neutral third party, but then removed again. I'm not saying that Skyerise was a party to this, or even aware of this but ask you to take this into account when evaluate my editing behaviours and why I was just trying to sort the references so we could verify sources and have a reasoned debate in line with WP:OR. --Notgain (talk) 02:31, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Even if everything you are saying here is true, you still need to secure consensus agreement from other editors before proceeding. Creating a discussion on the talk page was a step in the right direction - but you need to continue that discussion and find agreement with others. That you opened a discussion does not mean that you can then do whatever you like with the article even if others object. This got to ANI because your replies on your user talk read as if you do not understand what the problem actually is - you kept talking about citation errors, but that is not the issue at hand. MrOllie (talk) 02:40, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

There is a principle on wikipedia called Wikipedia:BOLD, revert, discuss cycle. This is where you make a change, then you discuss. I thought my edits were trivial and didn't need consensus. If it needs to be reverted then fine - but don't revert them when you know the person is sorting the references into alphabetical order. It took me hours. Anyone looking at my discussions in the associated talk page would have been that I engaged in an intense debate seeking consensus on the inclusion of a number of new critical reviews, meta analyses and systematic reviews. Going through the article, checking sources, adding page numbers, marking sources as missing page numbers or noting that a source does not meet WP:V. --Notgain (talk) 02:56, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Also - I wasn't just changing the ref format, I was accessing each listed source and checking they supported the attributed statement. Some of the reference failed that. --Notgain (talk) 03:02, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

"This is where you make a change, then you discuss" as a summary skips somewhat over the middle part of that linked page. As for "I wasn't just changing the ref format", then perhaps the course of action should be to make the other changes without changing the ref format. CMD (talk) 03:07, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

I had already opened a discussion on the related talk page and had explained the situation to Skyerise on my own talk page[180][181] before this ANI and request for page protect was raised. In addition, I had already given the reasons in a talk page message to Skyerise explaining that I was in the middle of an edit when I was reverted and need to save what I had done so I wouldn't lose hours of work and to correct the noted syntax errors. I was trying to follow Skyerise' example as I was reordering all the references in alphabetical order to make it easier for other editors and to address the concerns that Skyerise had raised in edit comments. This should have been uncontroversial. This was in line with referencing best practises as used on good article and featured article candidates. --Notgain (talk) 04:46, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Featured articles do not have to use the {{sfn}} template. The point of WP:REFVAR is that different styles are equally acceptable and unilaterally changing between them can be unduly disruptive. Remsense诉 04:48, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

I understand the complexity of the referencing situation in the article under discussion. I accept that I should I sought consensus on the talk page earlier. However, I believe it's important we acknowledge the unique challenge presented by its multi-disciplinary nature. The article covers topics within psychotherapy, linguistics, psychological assessment, legal issues, scientific skepticism of mental health claims, and critical reviews from sociological and anthropological perspectives - fields that may have their own preferred citation styles. There are also primary sources that have been discussed in reliable third party sources which have been quoted regarding historical context and to substantiate various statements. I agree that simply choosing a single style risks neglecting the nuances of each discipline represented in the article. I'll see if I can engage in a collaborative discussion on the Talk:Neuro-linguistic_programming, involving editors knowledgeable about these different fields. Our goal should be to find a solution that maximizes consistency and WP:V the article's diverse subject areas, while address the issue of WP:OR that has plagued the article for more than a decade. Perhaps we could investigate how well-regarded Wikipedia articles with a similar multi-disciplinary scope manage their referencing. --Notgain (talk) 05:41, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Does this seem to be AI generated to anyone else? Consider this post retracted if someone disagrees with my statement. 115.188.127.196 (talk) 09:09, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

It does read this way to me too. 's an exciting new way for disruptive people to tell on themselves and possibly shorten their own honeymoon period in my experience. Remsense诉 09:13, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

https://gptzero.me/ is highly confident that it is. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:31, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

This is absolutely insane. Never did I think Turing tests would have daily, practical application like this. wound theology◈ 12:05, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

I don't know what you mean by that. I am certainly not an AI. --Notgain (talk) 12:19, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Gptzero.me is confident that a lot of text written before the advent of LLMs are written by chatgpt. It's not a useful tool to determine whether someone used chatgpt. Give it some samples of your own writing and be prepared to be called a bot. Joey Dickinson the Game of Thrones Ultrafan (talk) 14:07, 7 May 2024 (UTC)strike sock-- Ponyo^{bons mots} 16:33, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

The issue is not that you chose a single style. The issue is that you chose a single style that another editor disagreed with, and then you did not stop to reach a consensus with them before ploughing on. Remsense诉 09:11, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

I genuinely thought that I was following the lead of Skyerise's earlier work on implmenting {{sfn}} ([182]). As I said I thought the main issue was the syntax errors. From my perspective I was not ploughing ahead without consensus, I was rushing to fix to syntax errors and not waste the hours of work I had already put into it such as ordering the citations alphabetical order. You can see evidence of my efforts to fix citation errors here: [183] and [184]. Also if you look at the current and previous versions of the article dating back some time, there was pre-existing use of {{efn}} and {{r}} before I was edited that page. I still have not seen a valid argument against {{sfn}}. I'll wait and see what the other editors have to say on the matter. But I will now experiment (in the sandpit) with {{Cite Q}} as a potential interim solution to solve the clutter issue. I'll have that discussion the relevant talk page. --Notgain (talk) 11:30, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

I hate to say it, but "I spent a lot of time on something" is not an argument with a lot of mileage. You will not be using {{Cite Q}} like I told you on the talk page, because it is also a different reference format that is disruptive for other editors to unilaterally change to. No one wants to suddenly have to learn how to wrangle Wikidata to edit an article where they didn't have to before. Remsense诉 11:33, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

They don't need to wrangle wikidata. In fact its easier then the current system. You know full well that I suggested it as a compromise in seeking consensus. That something for the talk page discussion, not ANI. --Notgain (talk) 11:47, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

You have go to Wikidata and look up Qvalues to use it. Remsense诉 11:48, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

You only need to put in the Q ID rather than all of the reference details like author, year, etc. The old system continues to work. And the more experienced users can help the newbies. --Notgain (talk) 11:51, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

And other editors should not have to suddenly start doing that when they didn't have to before on an article, this is the entire point of the guideline. I have completed my attempts to articulate that. Remsense诉 11:53, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

I hear what you are saying, I just don't agree with you. If you are already using {{Cite journal|...}} already, as we are on the understand under consideration then there is no consequence to using {{Cite Q|...}}. The onus is on the editor who makes that change to ensure that it works. --Notgain (talk) 11:56, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Individual agreement here does not matter, the cite format should not be changed unilaterally per WP:CITEVAR. CMD (talk) 12:02, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

With all due respect, I think you may have misunderstood the spirit of WP:CITEVAR. Using {{Cite Q}} when {{Cite Journal...}} or {{Cite Book...}} etc. Can you please quote the relevant policy that you are relying on? --Notgain (talk) 12:17, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

With all due respect, I have not. Note how the entire third paragraph of CITEVAR is impossible to action while editing en.wiki if Q citations are used. Wikidata has not managed to gain traction for use on en.wiki, so such citations are probably not an example that will help convince others of your position. CMD (talk) 12:24, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Just a point of clarification, when the page is unprotected, do you want me to revert all the {{sfn}} references including the ones that meticulously added by Skyerise, to get back to how it was before those changes? That is unless I can gain consensus on the talk page otherwise? Or are you saying I need consensus in order to convert any others? Also, would I need consensus to change <ref> to {{r}} or to add a page number with {{pn}}? --Notgain (talk) 12:46, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

The best course of action is probably to see where you and Skyerise (and any other editors who participate) agree on changes and make those ones. I would not change <ref> to {{r}} without consensus. Whether to use {{pn}} would depend on what the current citation format is and existing practice on the page, although this can also be discussed on the talkpage. CMD (talk) 13:18, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Also when I asked WP:AGF, Skyerise wrote that I was "inept" or "not good at" - this was not necessary, especially when I had already corrected the syntax errors and had already opened multiple discussions including the Skyerise. This is not the way to treat a volunteer --Notgain (talk) 03:10, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

This is true. However, they are also a volunteer, and review, potential cleanup, and pursuance after others also takes time. It seems you should have stopped changing the format after the first objection, while still able to engage in other cleanup. Remsense诉 03:24, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Changing citation styles can often be contentious, it's usually helpful to start a discussion first and following WP:BRD if anyone objects. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 15:50, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) I agree User:Hamterous1 ^{(discuss anything!🐹✈️)} 16:33, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Personal attack by Dheeraj1012

Dheeraj1012 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) Is a new editor that has made a around two dozen edits since beginning editing in April. Most of their additions have been unsourced. Recently, this user has insisted on edit warring regarding the (highly contentious in India) now demolished Babri Masjid mosque. After trying to have a conversation with them and letting them known of the contentious topics designation for India, in a recent edit summary, they have called me an idoit [sic]. [185]. I really don't think they have the temprament to edit about such a contentious issue, and think some kind of intervention is necessary. Hemiauchenia (talk) 06:10, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

They definitely seem to be WP:NOTHERE based on the comments left on Hemiauchenia and I's respective talk pages. wound theology◈ 11:54, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

An inability (or unwillingness) to understand Wikipedia policies on sourcing etc (or even what Wikipedia is for, see this absurd draft [186]) combined with an eagerness to jump head first into a contentious topic is never a good look. And a poor grasp of English doesn't help either. Dheeraj1012 would be well advised to spend less time editing articles, and more time reading up on how to do it properly. Which requires taking notice of what experienced contributors have to say. AndyTheGrump (talk) 12:21, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

User:Ali00200 12 out of 16 edits have been copyright violations

User:Ali00200 started editing last week, 12 out of their edits have been cut-and-paste copyright violations and they've been warned three times on their talk page. (Twice by me, once by another user). Their only non-copy vio edits have been to their user page, one change of a number, one addition of a word, and one new Wikipedia article about an author that got immediately draftified due to a lack of citations. A block might be wise at this point. GreenLipstickLesbian (talk) 08:03, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Disagreement about blocking of 2601:646:201:57F0::/64

This highly prolific editor has a ... rather unusual editing pattern of refbombing articles and talk pages with tangentially related references and quite often adding messages to talk pages just containing bare links. Both characteristics are demonstrated by the talk page contributions of this IP of theirs and this over-referencing edit to Ivory (soap). After I noticed an edit of theirs on my watchlist, I mass-reverted their edits and discovered this message on their talk page, which I felt indicated a severe attitude problem, so I blocked them for a year. They submitted an unblock request at User talk:2601:646:201:57F0:246:89EB:87C0:F4D4, which Yamla declined and bradv queried (and then reversed the block ... see my response there). If I re-block at this point, this would clearly be wheel-warring, but as I said at the discussion there I honestly don't believe we're dealing with a newbie here and allowing this person to edit would achieve little besides wasting the community's time with edits that are tedious to patrol and check and require much cleanup; for example, in response to this series of edits, I wrote that "I just checked the New York Times source (cited several times); it does not agree with any of the text it was put beside (or when it does, it does so in such a tenuous way as to be useless". Any other opinions on this situation would be appreciated. Also, I'll be in the air for a long time tomorrow so I probably won't be able to respond much between 14:00 (UTC) today and at least 18:00 (UTC) tomorrow. I'll notify all the involved editors (as much as I can for a /64) in due course. Graham87 (talk) 08:17, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Make that 12:30 (UTC) ... I have an early flight tomorrow. Graham87 (talk) 10:38, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Furthermore there's this edit, which shows far-above-average knowledge of Wikipedia for a newbie. Graham87 (talk) 08:35, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Why would they even be a newbie? Sorry if i missed them saying so somewhere. But how on earth is being able to use square brackets to creat a link any sort of advanced knowldge. There are countless examples of that on every page, signature etc. Just replicate, preview it and... Come on, its square brackets. There is nothing special about being able to do that. 85.16.37.129 (talk) 10:47, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Oops, just got this. It's their knowledge of (a) what a redirect is and (b) that they can't create one because they've chosen not to have an account. bradv assumed they were a newcomer, hence the unblock. Graham87 (talk) 11:00, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Ok cheers. Isn't that something that is practically the first thing you pick up when editing? In the end it just is so obvious how it works. When i started editing over 10 years ago now, which i overall rarely do i have to say, i always looked for examples of what i wanted to do and simply replicated it. The square brackets are very noticable around everything when in the edit interface. So you fiddle around with it for a minute, when the preview looks fine you will just know how to do it. Not like it is complicated.

I don't even feel like i want to defend the other editor overall. But knowing what redirects are, linking things etc are so simple that they surely should not be used as indicators of advanced skills. At least in my rather worthless opinion. 85.16.37.129 (talk) 11:19, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

They likely tried to make a redirect and got an error message. Wikipedia isn't as complex as what most editors do for their day jobs. The simple markdown used here is also used on lots of websites and platforms. It seems like bad faith to assume anyone who knows about redirects but doesn't have an account is suspicious. Joey Dickinson the Game of Thrones Ultrafan (talk) 14:12, 7 May 2024 (UTC)strike sock-- Ponyo^{bons mots} 16:30, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

A year-long block seems quite excessive for eccentricity and a "bad attitude" (of which I've seen much worse from much more experienced users, and I'm sure I've had worse myself.) I will say however that it's unlikely they will improve based on the edits they've made so far. wound theology◈ 11:59, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

ref: https://www.nytimes.com/1981/07/11/movies/robert-altman-sells-studio-for-2.3-million.html

always for altman's studio

https://www.thewrap.com/obit-laugh-ins-henry-gibson-dies-73-7251/

never mentions altman's malibu home 2601:646:201:57F0:E42C:A128:7D6:6F73 (talk) 17:49, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

"redirect" shows up in page displays and search results 2601:646:201:57F0:E42C:A128:7D6:6F73 (talk) 17:56, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

multiple refs after a person's name (who has no article) specifies who they are: "Lane Sarasohn" The Groove Tube 2601:646:201:57F0:E42C:A128:7D6:6F73 (talk) 18:08, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

wound Theology: Explain:

• eccentricity
• "bad attitude"

2601:646:201:57F0:E42C:A128:7D6:6F73 (talk) 18:11, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

I can't make head nor tail of the above. Is this coherent to anyone else? --Yamla (talk) 18:13, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

(this is just what I understood they said, not comments)

I think the first one is responding to the "I just checked the New York Times source [..]" diff, saying that the ref was for the studio and that the other source, which they hid with an HTML comment and Graham reverted in that diff, did not support the Malibu home.

The second one is explaining their intention in asking for a redirect, Graham uses that request to say the IP has "[..]far-above-average knowledge of Wikipedia for a newbie"?

The third one I'm not sure what they are responding to as they have not edited The Groove Tube.

And the fourth one they are asking @Wound theology what they meant with eccentricity and "bad attitude".

--- now for comments:

It is unreasonably challenging to understand what the reported range is saying, I'm not saying they need to be blocked just for that, but they need to improve. It will be impossible to work with them if they don't, because while it's good that they are here discussing instead of continuing, even that is not going to work if we can't understand what they are saying. – 2804:F14:80B2:ED01:4435:1C06:57EF:81CA (talk) 21:12, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

You know, maybe a year-long block isn't as excessive as I thought it was... wound theology◈ 06:13, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

refers to Robert Altman and The Wilton North Report 2601:646:201:57F0:E42C:A128:7D6:6F73 (talk) 18:20, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

it seems Graham87 deleted everything I did, even on talk pages. what is that about? I cannot do more than raw urls. nevertheless they are well sourced. 2601:646:201:57F0:E42C:A128:7D6:6F73 (talk) 18:40, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

statements in initial post are misleading exaggerations with anger at being reverted 2601:646:201:57F0:E42C:A128:7D6:6F73 (talk) 18:51, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for trying to discusss this here. Your opinion about your own edits is irrelevant. The fact that you can't do anything but raw URLS and your communication issues demonstrate a competence problem. I reverted many of your edits because they were problematic; a references section is not a place to dump random tangentially related refs. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Graham87 (talk • contribs) 18:13, 8 May 2024 (UTC)^<diff>

I'm concerned that Graham87 doesn't understand the problem with heavy-handed blocks like this, and the damage this sort of admin work does to Wikipedia. After looking at this case I took a quick look at some other recent blocks, and there are some other reasons to be concerned:

• Special:Contribs/2400:ADC5:1A9:7500:0:0:0:0/64 — blocked for 6 months with no warning, no explanation, no block notice, and no advice on how to appeal.
• Special:Contribs/Orbitm8693 — blocked without explanation, with no talk page or email access. The reason given is "block evasion", but no indication of what block they are suspected of evading, nor any way for them to appeal.
• Special:Contribs/Randompandaeatcake — same as above, "block evasion" without explanation nor any means of appealing.
• Special:Contribs/Wondabyne — again, no explanation, no means of appealing as both email and talk page access were revoked. Graham87 initially reported them as a sock of RichardHornsby but the evidence didn't hold up. Yet they remain blocked with no way of appealing that decision.

I haven't had time to dig any deeper yet, but this may require a broader investigation. – bradv 14:43, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

• It's fairly common to not specify the master of a block evader to deny recognition. It's also very difficult to communicate with a /64 user and editors focused on adding unreferenced content about one particular country are ... not what we want here. I don't believe users who waste the time of other editors should edit here. Re the sock block, I did indeed get the sock wrong on my first go but it was corrected. Graham87 (talk) 18:13/19:38, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

  That's usually done for long-term abuse cases, or in the words of the essay you quoted, "true vandals and trolls". Which LTAs are these? You haven't even specified which blocks they are evading. – bradv 02:19, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

  Is there not any way for us to note, say, in a revdelled edit which master a sock goes to? This seems like it would be more useful than a total blank. jp×g🗯️ 02:38, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

• Yeah it would. I've added links to Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/RichardHornsby in all those cases. Honestly normally I would add such links but for that particular case (both the person I thought it was originally and the actual sockmaster), I didn't think there'd be any point; those who know could use the search feature to find it. Graham87 (talk) 09:26, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

Ekdalian

hello. This @Ekdalian user is removing reliable sources content from the Yaduvanshi Aheer article and vandalizing in the article. Please check the article and improve it as per the sources. And please take action against @Ekdalian who are suppressing new Wikipedia users. Hcsrctu (talk) 12:00, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

I would be glad if someone reviews my edits. I have been fighting against caste promotion and POV pushing by SPAs and caste warriors for more than 10 years here. Thanks. Ekdalian (talk) 12:06, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

If information has been added as per reliable sources, so what is the reason for removing it? Hcsrctu (talk) 12:20, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Hcsrctu you should be very careful about accusing someone of vandalism - that can be interpreted as a personal attack, which is not permitted and your account may end up being blocked it it's repeated. That said, calling someone a cast warrior without presenting evidence to that effect is not exactly civil either. The article's talk page is at Talk:Yaduvanshi Aheer: that is the place to discuss content and sourcing. Girth Summit _(blether) 12:15, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

@Girth Summit: this user @Ekdalian Belongs to Kayastha caste and he only promotes his own caste and hates other Indian castes especially the backward castes. Please check the article Yaduvanshi Aheer. he removed reliable/sources information. Hcsrctu (talk) 12:31, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

You are on thin ice here. Please explain what evidence you have to support the notion that Ekdalian hates other Indian castes. All I see is someone removing content that they do not think belongs in the article. Girth Summit _(blether) 12:33, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Assumption of my caste and another personal attack may result in block! Anyone can check my edits and the article talk page comments! Thanks. Ekdalian (talk) 12:36, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Also, if it isn't clear enough on the top of the page, When starting a discussion about an editor, you must leave a notice on their talk page; pinging is not enough. The 🏎 Corvette 🏍 ZR1^{(The Garage)} 12:16, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

The user has edited the article talk page, but couldn't respond here; accusing me without any evidence and personal attacks are not acceptable at all! I would like to request Girth Summit / other admins active here to take appropriate action (could be a warning as well) against this user. Thanks. Ekdalian (talk) 13:58, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Boomerang topic ban proposal for User:Hcsrctu

My first interaction with @Hcsrctu: was at Kalachuri Era(redirect) which they redirected to Abhira Era without consensus.[187] ,my second encounter with them was at Graharipu , where they engaged in an edit war with 3 different editors(incl. an admin) to restore their preferred version[188] then proceeding to report me to an admin @Bishonen: [189] without discussing on the talkpage first. From this thread , it seems their behavioural pattern of engaging in disruption and then trying to file frivolous reports against editors hasn't stopped yet despite me warning them to be more cautious on how they conduct themselves in this topic area[190]. I believe a topic ban from caste related topics is due at this point to minimise the disruption. Therefore I'm making this formal topic ban proposal. Pinging the subject of this thread @Ekdalian:.Ratnahastin (talk) 06:54, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

@Ratnahastin: Perhaps you do not know that Abhira era and Kalachuri era are the same. Later Abhira era was called Kalachuri era. And the user whose edit you reverted has been already blocked. And I reverted the edit to the Graharipu article because its sources support it. And I debated with @Ekdalian on some issue, that issue has been resolved, still I apologize to @Ekdalian and I will not make such mistakes in future. Hcsrctu (talk) 07:28, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

I have already expressed my opinion in the above section, 'Ekdalian'! Personal attacks are not acceptable, especially such serious allegations. Would request the admins to take appropriate call regarding the user. Thanks. Ekdalian (talk) 07:59, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

106.184.133.94: insults

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See here. a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 13:05, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Edit revdel'd and IP blocked for 72 hours. RickinBaltimore (talk) 13:08, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

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Edit war

This editor @Bob08 is constantly removing "Algeria" from the Regency of Algiers article's Wikidata [191], claiming that Algeria "did not exist as a country before 1962", which is clearly a transgression against WP:Neutral, assuming they have bothered to read the article. I undid their edit twice but they seem focused on their WP:Editwar.

Nourerrahmane (talk) 17:24, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Edit warring should be reported to WP:ANEW. 331dot (talk) 17:25, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Thanks. Nourerrahmane (talk) 17:28, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

I reverted the "report" filed by the user. Unlike here, reports at ANEW must be structured. The user's report was malformed beyond even marking as malformed.--Bbb23 (talk) 18:20, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

These changes are being made on Wikidata not Wikipedia, does any board here have any right to hear this complaint? -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 19:11, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

• This is a matter for Wikidata. I suggest you open a discussion as to whether 'Algeria' should or should not be a property of the 'Regency of Algiers' record at Wikidata:Project chat. Note that WP:Neutral doesn’t apply to Wikidata; Wikidata has its own Wikidata:List of policies and guidelines and en.wiki policies and guidelines don’t apply there. -- Malcolmxl5 (talk) 01:03, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

Editor making wild accusations and extreme personal attacks on talk page

Sapedder has a pattern of being incredibly rude and condescending towards his fellow editors and frequently makes sly or overt passes against people he dislikes. He seems to be completely and utterly incapable of collaborating in a productive manner and seems heavily predisposed to a WP:BATTLEGROUND mentality. This isn't a new development, this has been going on for years.

After a 2 year break from Wikipedia, and a disagreement on the page Khalsa, this user left a vile message on the talk page-[192], right off the bat, he accused me of "deranged socking, and stalking", slyly making threats against me, accusing me of "inappropriate behaviour" on Reddit saying that I bash his co-religionists on there and make repulsive forums, which by the way is completely unfounded nonsense and as you'll see a little later, hilariously ironic, and insinuating that he would be emailing these supposed Reddit posts to admins to get me in trouble.

Here are some earlier examples of wildly inappropriate behaviour from this user:

Slyly calling another editor incompetent which he was warned for by an admin in August 2020-[193].

"I am increasingly disinclined to take you seriously as someone I can work with in any capacity. You clearly just want the article to preserve its POV and keep it as the low-quality, poorly-written attack page Dbigxray turned it into without cooperating with anyone for two years....I'm quite curious to know why you never held him to account, with his poor English, bottom-tier "Indian news channel" sources, unabashed POV, and low-value content, and no one being quoted except Congress stooges. In any case, I acted as advised by Abecedare, your interactions with me have been marginal at best and mostly unpleasant.

Ignoring admins and other editors' reservations about the sources he inundated the Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale article with, solely because those sources satisfied his POV

Sapedder also had a serious issue of pinging/canvassing only editors who agreed with him during discussions Elephanthunter/SnowyMeadows was also active on the t/p discussion alongside Sapedder; both users were in agreement with one another, and it seems the latter was trying to exploit the situation by selectively pinging them when engaged in a disagreement

[194] + [195] Selectively messaging editors who were in agreement with him to achieve "consensus"

Deciding to involve himself in an edit war report, throwing accusations and personal attacks against GSS, seemingly out of disdain for GSS disagreeing with his edits to the Bhindranwale page, once again pinging an editor (JoyceGW1) whom he had rapport with to try to stack complaints against GSS

You contributed nothing of value

[196] +[197]: More canvassing

Rudeness and unnecessary condescension in this reply + Beyond the pale rude comment + edit summary: re lol 3 + Bludgeoning the requested move discussion which other editors complained about as well + blatant canvassing/attempt at vote stacking

More canvassing/selective pinging from this user even in 2022-[198] + Edit warring; Daniel Case: Reviewing the most recent history of the article, while Sapedder did revert three times within 24 hours, that has happened only once so far + Want to take that up with the admins and embarrass yourself at (edit war report) again? And the Amarinder source disagrees with you too lmao, you just destroyed your own case with your own source, what an own-goal. + Deceptive edit summary since many editors reverted and disagreed with Sapedder as well and then Rude dismissal of misleading edit summary warning on his t/p + [199] + once again canvassing editors that agree with him to support him in a dispute resolution noticeboard

Hallucinating more strawmen?

This user talk page thread aptly summarizes how Sapedder conducts himself in discussions, put together by another editor Srijanx22

On this ANI thread-[200]; Admin EIC made some relevant comments to Sapedder: "Sapedder, I'm trying to get across to you that your broken like every rule approach works against your own interests. Try to stay dispassionate and avoid hyperbole." & "Sapedder, you've expressed naked hostility against the IP so many times, it really takes me back a bit that you're still unaware this isn't okay"

There is a clear pattern of incivility and intimidation from this user. Regarding his accusations against me on the t/p of Khalsa, the crux of which appears to be behaviour on Reddit; I haven't had a Reddit account for years though I do lurk there sometimes anonymously, not that it's any of his business. The irony in this whole situation is that there are numerous posts on Reddit complaining about my edits on Wikipedia, with one particular reddit user instigating others against me and making disparaging posts about me, they even created an entire subreddit with some posts explicitly rebuking my edits, and all sorts of comments both from within that sub and related ones making personal attacks against me; saying that I should be doxxed, that they pray that I get banned, that I bring 5 editors with me to get my way on Wikipedia, that I'm a terrorist etc. One of those Reddit users who was particularly vitrolic against me is a regular Wikipedia editor. I also alerted ArbCom in October 2023 through email about possible meat puppetry arising from these types of posts after another Wikipedia editor notified me about what was happening, so any admin can confirm with them. Their response was "Meatpuppetry is defined by changes being made onwiki by coordination offwiki. The coordination on reddit is obvious, but the edits coming from that coordination are not in this email. Do you have specific diffs that you believe were made due to that coordination?". ArbCom did not get back to me after my response however. I could have confronted that Wikipedia user who made those reddit posts/comments about me, publicly trying to humiliate him and his takes, but I didn't because that's completely out of line and at the very least reserved for more discrete communication, but it appears Sapedder thinks differently. And even I if was guilty of what he is saying, that I make repulsive reddit posts "bashing Sikhs", why is that any of his business, and why should that have any impact on Wikipedia discourse? He accuses me of "stalking" yet he inadvertently admitted to stalking reddit accounts he presumes are mine (!). It's clear he's just trying to tarnish my reputation and humiliate me. Southasianhistorian8 (talk) 17:41, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

I'm not too sure what the rules are for off-wiki interactions, especially for anything stated in a Reddit post. Obviously cyberstalking is a huge accusation to make, so perhaps an admin can speak to that. Conyo14 (talk) 21:53, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Admins, this user is doubling down on personal attacks, accusing me of being some sort of Internet mastermind and using socks-[201]. This behaviour warrants an incivility and battleground block, at the very, very least.

By the way, Sapedder, if you have any suspicions that I'm using socks, please don't hesitate to file a report against me, or better yet, email some sassy hyperbole interspersed with personal attacks, as you indicate you often do, to admins. Southasianhistorian8 (talk) 09:31, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

By the way since I linked that subreddit, the other active user there deleted all of his posts there, some of which explicitly rebuked me. Southasianhistorian8 (talk) 12:51, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

• I've issued a short block. Hopefully they will treat this as a warning to be nicer so let's see. RegentsPark (comment) 20:18, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

  Thanks @RegentsPark, honestly a 3 day ban seems incredibly, incredibly light since he's been doing this for years on end, but let's see what happens next. Southasianhistorian8 (talk) 20:23, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

  Given the long editing gaps, the length of the block doesn't really matter. It's just a message. If they don't heed the message, then the next block will most likely be an indef.RegentsPark (comment) 21:00, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

Personal attack by User:Hongkongpenang

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Hongkongpenang (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

• This user uses inappropriate words during discussions [202]
• When this user failed in the discussion, he made personal attack by using nationality [203]

I hope the administrator can follow up on this action. Thank You.. Stvbastian (talk) 17:55, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

This seems to happen an awful lot with this editor. [204], [205], [206], [207], etc. Looks like WP:NOTHERE to me. Simonm223 (talk) 18:31, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

After reverting a racist personal attack here, I have blocked the account indefinitely. I'm pretty sure this is an LTA but I can't remember which one. Either way, we don't tolerate that sort of racism here. I expect I'll be reverting TPA shortly. --Yamla (talk) 18:41, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

• The saddest part is the whole thing is some dumb stuff about badminton tournaments. What a thing to get blocked over. EEng 01:14, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

  Makes a change from wrestling. Canterbury Tail talk 13:20, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

  Eh, I remember someone getting indeffed a few years ago over darts ... not world championships, not national championships, COUNTY championship darts. Seriously. Ravenswing 14:16, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

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User needs TPA revoked

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See TOJI FUSHIGUROmegumithenigga. Nothin' good goin' on there. TornadoLGS (talk) 01:51, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

 Done – Muboshgu (talk) 01:55, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

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Yeswhynot1234567890

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Yeswhynot1234567890 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

SPA creating attack page [208], personal attack at WP:AFC/HD [209]. Requesting block and RevDel. '''[[User:CanonNi]]''' (talk • contribs) 05:59, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

That personal attack is definitely indef worthy imo but I actually think the page they created is about themself. Not that it matters. wound theology◈ 06:16, 8 May 2024 (UTC) Nevermind, absolutely an attack page. wound theology◈ 06:18, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

Indeffed and draft deleted (attack/lol page). Johnuniq (talk) 06:22, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

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Vandalism-only account, WP:NOTHERE

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Nikey05 is pretty much exclusively here for vandalism purposes. They've managed to only log in to vandalise every few weeks so as not be applicable for AIV (to the best of my knowledge), but their edits have included:

• calling a BLP subject a paedophile
• accusing said subject of having intercourse with underage boys - restoring it - restoring it again
• editing the Victims of Communism Memorial to call it "bullshit" in the lede
• vandalising another page - restoring once reverted
• calling a BLP subject a fascist
• only yesterday, removing the lede of a BLP subject to call them a "fucking Zionist"

It's pretty clear to me the user is WP:NOTHERE. — ser! ^{(chat to me - see my edits)} 08:48, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

Yup clearly a WP:NOTHERE vandal. Give them a block.CycoMa1 (talk) 09:01, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

Indeffed. Johnuniq (talk) 09:39, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

Thanks John. Many thanks for the speedy response. ser! ^{(chat to me - see my edits)} 10:02, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

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Suleymanof

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Suleymanof (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Typical case of WP:NOTHERE ethno-nationalistic disruption by a user with barely any edits. Majority of their edits have been reverted, and for good reason.

1. 3 March 2023 [210] - Replaced sourced "Iranian" with "Azerbaijani" at Atropatene, despite the Azerbaijanis first existing as an ethnonym circa 2000 years later! [211]
2. 26 July 2023 [212] - Attempted to do the same
3. 27 July 2023 [213] - I gave them their last warning, where they had the nerve to claim "I am typing facts,check any reliable history book if you do not believe me", "you are just biased,read history books,you will see all by yourself" and "And you too,will be reported as well"
4. 7 May 2024 [214] [215] [216] [217] - And they are back with more ethno-nationalistic disruption, removing sourced info at Anti-Iranian sentiment and Nizami Ganjavi
5. 8 May 2024 - Despite their disruption, they have the nerve to go to my talk page and say "Hey,stop wikipedia-vandalism.Stop falsify information about history of Azerbaijan.I will report you if you do that ever again!"

--HistoryofIran (talk) 13:23, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

And they just made this reply to my ANI notice, pretty ironic; "I will report you if you ever do the same mistake again.Either behave like a normal wiki user and stop disinformation or just delete your account and stop editing!" HistoryofIran (talk) 14:44, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

Seems like a pretty textbook NOTHERE nationalist. The Kip 15:48, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

I have indefinitely blocked Suleymanof. Cullen328 (talk) 17:03, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

Thanks Cullen328! HistoryofIran (talk) 17:27, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

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Continual disruptive edits in Argentina-Brazil football rivalry and related articles and edit war

Svartner (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Hi! I am writing to you because the user Svartner has came back (he did the same thing in March [218]) and he is reverting all the articles related to the count of matches between Argentina–Brazil football rivalry, for example Brazil national football team records and statistics and Argentina national football team records and statistics. He was who entered in an edit war, because he doesn´t discuss anything: he first reverts, removing information with sources, and then, enters in an edit war. In the Talk Page, I put a lot of arguments with sources (a few of FIFA), but he insists in his attitude and he is reverting those articles [219]. He doesn´t respect 2 official FIFA´s sources and many others that even put Argentina above by one match (AFA, El Gráfico, TyC Sports, Promiedos), and he only puts 3 sources that say that Brazil is avobe. Only one source gave by him can be considered "serious" (rsssf.com), but the others (eloratings.net and 11v11.com) are a complete "joke". I think that any source can´t be above a single FIFA source... A single FIFA source "kills" any other source, because FIFA is the major world football organization... So, the user does not "recognize" 2 FIFA´s sources, one of them with the complete list of matches according to FIFA, and others from AFA (with the complete list of matches), El Gráfico (with the complete list of matches), Promiedos (with the complete list of matches too), TyC Sports. Please, read them:

1) FIFA source number 1. Updated to the latest game (BRA 0 ARG 1, 21/11/2023):[220]. Tied in 42 each.

2) FIFA source number 2. Updated to the 21/11/2012 game. After that match, they played 11 matches, with 4 wins each, 2 ties and one suspended because of the circus made by the brazilian "Ministry of Health" or "Security"... The source shows all the lists of matches... To see the complete list of matches, please click in "Advanced search", and then in "Show all matches":[221]. Adding those games, Argentina is above by one match...

3) Argentine Football Association source number 1 (the major Argentina´s football organization). Updated to the 15/11/2019 game. After that, they played 4 games, with 2 Argentina´s wins, one tie and one suspended match because of the "circus". The source shows all the lists of matches... [222]. Adding those games, Argentina is above by one match.

4) AFA source number 2. Updated to the 16/11/2021 game. After that, they played only 1 match, won by Argentina. The source shows all the lists of matches... [223] Adding this game, Argentina is above by one match.

5) El Gráfico Magazine source (the major football Latin American magazine between 1919 to the middle 2000´s). Updated to the 16/11/2021 game. After that, they played 1 match, won by Argentina... The source shows all the lists of matches... [224]

6) Promiedos.com source. Updated to the latest game (BRA 0 ARG 1, 21/11/2023): [225]

7) TyC Sports source. Updated to the latest game (BRA 0 ARG 1, 21/11/2023). The source shows all the lists of matches... [226]. Argentina is above by one match.

To be "good" I think we should consider the FIFA´s sources. Beacause if we are "evil", we should even say that Argentina leads by one match, as many sources say...

I think it´s crazy and inconceivable, and the behavior of this user is capricious and unacceptable. Can you help me to stop this nonsense? Thanks! Cheers, --Raúl Quintana Tarufetti (talk) 13:58, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

@Raúl Quintana Tarufetti You have failed to notify Svartner (talk · contribs) of this report, as the red notice at the top of this page clearly requires you to. I have done so for you this time. Please note that not all examples of disruptive editing are actually vandalism, and it's considered a personal attack to accuse an editor of being a vandal if their actions were not clearly made in bad faith. Regards, User:TheDragonFire300. (Contact me | Contributions). 14:05, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

Hi, TheDragonFire300! I was going to do this (notify the user), and I saw you did it. Sorry, I do not edit frequently in the english wiki. I apologise. I asked help to other users because of the capricious and unacceptable behaviour of the user Svartner and seeing that he continued reverting I started this post here. I will change the title of the post if it´s not correct. --Raúl Quintana Tarufetti (talk) 14:29, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

To be completely clear, I am not attempting to claim that Svartner's actions were or were not in bad faith and/or would qualify as vandalism. I am just stating this, as we get a lot of reports on ANI that jump to conclusions that just because one editor wasn't letting an original poster have their way that they must be a vandal, which has led to quite a few arguments in the past. I am hoping that you don't fall victim to the same. Regards, User:TheDragonFire300. (Contact me | Contributions). 14:38, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

I understand. Regards, --Raúl Quintana Tarufetti (talk) 18:08, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

You're an WP:SPA which is currently, to put it charitably, edit warring with pretty much everyone who disagrees with you. I would advise you to WP:DROPTHESTICK, and open an RfC on the issue. Until that point, I would strongly advise you to not touch any articles related to the dispute at hand. Even if you're right, no good is going to come out of edit warring. Allan Nonymous (talk) 19:04, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

Hello Allan Nonymous. First of all, please do not acuse me of WP:SPA. I am a well respected user of Wikipedia in Spanish. I don´t edit so frequently in the english wikipedia, but I do in some articles, and I always do in good faith. I´am not a siingle porpose account, as you say, but if I were, that´s not a reason to remove well referenced information from the articles; references that are correct and are from FIFA, AFA, El Gráfico, TyC Sports, and I can continue... I started the discussion [227], I gave 7 neutral and serious sources (2 from FIFA) [228] [229] (to see the complete list of games according to FIFA, click in "Advanced search" and then in "Showw all matches", [230], [231], [232], [233], [234], and the other user reverts and reverts.

I also posted here to another users participate [235] as you saw. But the only thing I see are "accusations" and no one goes to the point of the discussion about the sources and what appears in those articles.

How can wikipedia allow to count matches as official that are NOT counted by FIFA? It´s crazy... It would be great if you and others want to participate in the discusion. Regards, --Raúl Quintana Tarufetti (talk) 22:20, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

• Please note that the editor @Raúl Quintana Tarufetti is a single-purpose account, which only aims to remove referenced content and enforce your WP:POINT. All edits made by me were made in the same way as similar articles from the Wikipedia football project, not being disruptive and, most importantly, containing diverse references. I have no interest in edit wars, just analyze the history of the article to understand who is being in disagreement with good practices. Any further questions, feel free to ask Svartner (talk) 22:34, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
• Blocked Raúl Quintana Tarufetti for one week based on a report at WP:ANEW.--Bbb23 (talk) 22:37, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

Continual disruptive edits by IP range 223.239.64.0/20

Continuous disruptive edits in Indian election pages by IP addresses - 223.239.73.192, 223.239.68.6 , 223.239.73.216 and 223.239.68.8 (IP range - 223.239.64.0/20). IPs keep removing information without any explanation and keep adding information against community consensus at MOS:INDELECT on 5-6 articles . Their disruptive edits have been explained to them multiple times in edit summaries and warnings on talk page. Likely a blocked sock. Requesting range block for 223.239.64.0/20. Dhruv edits (talk) 14:18, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

Considering the halfway recent contributions from the range, this request seems reasonable. 223.239.64.0/20 has been blocked for a month. Bishonen | tålk 21:18, 8 May 2024 (UTC).

@Bishonen. They have again started disruptive edits with IP 223.239.84.12. Requesting range block for 223.239.64.0/19 as well to include the new IP address. Dhruv edits (talk) 04:12, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

Oh. OK, done, but if the range gets bigger still, I think that's it for me, and I'll have to leave the problem to somebody who's actually clever with ranges. Bishonen | tålk 08:55, 9 May 2024 (UTC).

User:Monhamd muaed1000

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Monhamd muaed1000 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

This user is WP:NOTHERE to build an encyclopedia from edit warring [236] to vulgar language: User talk:Underbar dk#Fuck you.. This could be a WP:SOCK or WP:SPA, but I'm not sure... - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 17:32, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

Blocked. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 17:56, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

Thanks, nobody should feel harassed into making an edit. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 18:01, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Please remove TPA of IP

This IP, User:216.186.51.109, keeps posting patent nonsense to their talk page even after being blocked (seen in page history). Please remove TPA, or indef. If you reply here, please ping me. thetechie@enwiki: ~/talk/ $ 17:41, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

All set. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 17:44, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

@ScottishFinnishRadish Thank you! If you reply here, please ping me. thetechie@enwiki: ~/talk/ $ 17:47, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

@TheTechie, IPs are usually not indefinitely blocked. See WP:IPBLOCKLENGTH. —asparagusus (interaction) ^sprouts! 18:24, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

@Asparagusus I was asking because there was a message at the top of the IP's talk page saying that the IP has been repeatedly blocked and that the next block will be indefinite. If you reply here, please ping me. thetechie@enwiki: ~/talk/ $ 22:01, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

POV-pushing at Rape during the occupation of Japan

Could use some outside eyes on a discussion at Talk:Rape during the occupation of Japan#Rape allegation are based on witness testimony and not physical evidence, over an IP editor's views that because there is not "documentary evidence" of mass rape during the occupation of Japan, rapes during the occupation are "said to have [been] committed". The editor is now POV-pushing using an as-yet unpublished book. GorillaWarfare (she/her • talk) 19:06, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

The edit warring definitely needs to stop, and a short block may become necessary to catch the IP's attention, but I noticed that nobody had really taken the time to detail the interplay between WP:NPOV/WP:WEIGHT and WP:OR to this (possibly entirely green) editor, such as to explain why their view of utilizing the more "accurate" wording is not the proper approach on this project. I've done this now on the article talk page, and while there's by no means a guarantee that this will slow this user's roll, it definitely should be the first step in such cases, ideally prior to a filing here. SnowRise ^{let's rap} 02:44, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

Spamer 5.24

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Geth1979 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) spam. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 20:33, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

@Manyareasexpert, this was Geth1979's first edit since December. Revert and warn. If they continue to repeat, report to WP:AIV. Schazjmd (talk) 20:37, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

All of their contributions since the acc creation in 2018 are spam. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 20:44, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

I have indefinitely blocked Geth1979 because they have been spamming links to a website called "bestkievguide" for 5-1/2 years. Cullen328 (talk) 20:55, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Batagur baska: AWB edits to hide articles from deletion "hit lists"

Batagur baska (talk · contribs · blocks · count · rollback · admin · logs) has removed stub classification from dozens of articles that are clearly and obviously stubs using AWB.[237][238] They've also redirected dozens more at a rate of multiple per minute.[239][240][241][242] I haven't checked all but having randomly clicked dozen or so, I have yet to find unstubbed articles that were actually not stubs. I have not checked the WP:ATDR edits; my concerns solely arise from the rate at which they were done and their explanation for them that does not match its purpose. Their explanation, as best I understand it, is they are hiding promising articles from deletion hitlists, because stubs are at risk of mass deletion. They even say these articles could be
reinstated after the deletion spree comes to an end. My attempt to get this resolved at their talk page has failed because I have a higher deletion contributions deleted contributions percentage than them. Please see User talk:Batagur baska#Identifying non-stubs and reclassifiying (permalink). Honestly, the edits that need reverting are not as numerous as they could have been. I could probably have done it in the time I have spent at their talk page and now here, if only there were grounds to believe it would not recur. Thank you for your consideration! Usedtobecool ☎️ 02:31, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

Courtesy pings to Pppery as the admin who granted AWB and Liz who the talk page shows has had previous interation/s with the user. — Usedtobecool ☎️ 02:31, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

So let me get this straight: this bloke thinks they have the unilateral right to exempt permastubs from the deletion process? And that you have no right to demur because you're involved in more deletion discussions than they are? Good grief, even the most radical ARS militants weren't that far out. Ravenswing 03:05, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

I think it was deleted contribs actually, the number of my edits that are hidden from public view because they reside in now deleted pages, not that it affects the point. I have refactored my original post accordingly. Usedtobecool ☎️ 03:24, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

Could this be another No Great Shaker sock? They seem to have similar opposition to mass deletion and use similar language around it, as well as having an interest in English cricket. BilledMammal (talk) 03:15, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

Pomposity is particularly intolerable when it is paired with incompetence. Even if the user's incorrect understandings of policies and procedures could be rectified, they have a massive attitude problem that renders their presence here untenable. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 03:54, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

Many articles created, and i have concerns regarding quality and the lack of reliable sources because most of articles are BLP!

I was wondering, while checking this https://xtools.wmcloud.org/pages/en.wikipedia.org/Saqib

(He was given Autopatrolled rights by https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:BU_Rob13 ) Just came to this user saqib created 200+ articles with Autopatrolled rights only with two lines (alosmost all articles) and most of them are not properly cited. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 and hundred more.

Is it okay to manufacture short articles with Autopatrolled rights? Because as per guidelines creating "clean" "elaborate", well cited articles is mandatory!.

The user started defending with assumptions when I informed the administrator here.

Is it okay for a user to manufacture hundreds of articles with just two lines ? Lkomdis (talk) 03:55, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

I have to agree with Saqib. This looks very much like Saqib is being targeted. I clicked on 1,2, 9 and 10. They are all well-made stubs on clear WP:NPOL passes. I saw Saqib taken to WP:XRV yesterday. And now I see OP has been shopping around for admins to do their bidding. This is definitely not a user with 103 edits as it would appear. This is a sleeper for a farm, presumably one Saqib might have foiled with their AFC or NPP work. — Usedtobecool ☎️ 04:27, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

Yup, definitely not a good-faith editor. They were provided sufficient explanation at the teahouse here yesterday. Yet here they are raising the same issues as though that had not happened at all, having in between gone to Bbb23 and then WP:COIN. — Usedtobecool ☎️ 04:33, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

These creations appear to be rapidly created and near-identical - in other words, without consensus they are WP:MASSCREATE violations.

There may also be an issue with Lkomdis, but Saqib needs to hold off on these creations until they get consensus for them. BilledMammal (talk) 04:34, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

I clicked a dozen or so and they are all on legislators. As long as the sources verify that they were elected to parliament/s, I have no concerns. Legislators are exempt from GNG requirement. If there are articles on topics that require SIGCOV that were rapidly mass-created without citing them, that would be a different matter. — Usedtobecool ☎️ 04:51, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

However, they’re not exempt from our rules on WP:MASSCREATION and WP:FAIT; indeed, the biggest issues we have had with mass creation - the ones that have consumed the most editor time and caused the most drama - have been on topics where notability is presumed. BilledMammal (talk) 04:57, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

I can see why those PAGs exist and I can think of areas where they would do good, even in article creation; I just don't see how they could be applied to legislator bios to benefit. NPOL was well-established well before I joined, and in all my time, I have never got an impression other than that we want to create standalone articles on every single one of the legislators because we believe that's essential information for encyclopedias to have and we believe all legislators are sure to have more coverage in reliable sources than our pretty lax inclusion criteria. I would need to see that the stubs have other problems than that they were quickly created en masse. I recognise your position. And I have seen you, along with others, convince the community of it, in other areas of the project, sports notably, but you have not done so for NPOL. I don't think the current community position foresees any problem with legislator stubs that you may do. Best, — Usedtobecool ☎️ 05:17, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

The PAG might apply to the bios which simply repeat information already on List of members of the 16th Provincial Assembly of Sindh and List of members of the 16th National Assembly of Pakistan, but one of the examples above, Syed Adil Askari, shows how they could be expanded further. Odd that that ended up in the list. CMD (talk) 05:22, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

• I'm NOT buying this complaint against me. The OP also accused me of COI and UPE which I've clarified here. For the clarity, I've created over whopping 2,000+ BLPs on Pakistani MPs, not just 200 as the OP wrote above. And if anyone's wondering why I made those stubs, it's simple. They all meet WP:POLITICIAN, they're well-referenced and I haven't inserted any PROMO or even WP:OR. I challenge if any one can find any such, please provide the diffs here. Honestly, I'm surprised nobody has linked to the BLPs I created that later became quite detailed bios like (Aseefa Bhutto Zardari, Ali Wazir, Fawad Chaudhry, Usman Buzdar, Anwaar ul Haq Kakar, Muhammad Aurangzeb, Liaquat Ali Chattha, Mohsin Dawar, Nausheen Hamid, Rana Aftab Ahmad Khan, Hammad Azhar, Fayyaz ul Hassan Chohan, Sardar Nasrullah Khan Dreshak, Musadik Malik, Ismail Rahoo, Sibtain Khan,Faisal Vawda, Zartaj Gul, Mushtaq Ahmad Khan, Murtaza Wahab, Sadiq Sanjrani, Usman Dar and the list goes on...). --—Saqib (talk I contribs) 06:55, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

  created over whopping 2,000+ BLPs on Pakistani MPs Please read WP:MASSCREATE, and please stop engaging in the mass-creation of these stubs until you get consensus that such mass creation is appropriate. BilledMammal (talk) 06:57, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

  For sure, if it's a policy and applies to WP:NPOL, I'll steer clear of that in the future. —Saqib (talk I contribs) 06:59, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

  It's a policy, and it applies to all content pages - both those covered by WP:NPOL and those not covered by it. BilledMammal (talk) 07:01, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

  If that's the case, then fair enough. I wasn't aware of this, if you take my word for it. --—Saqib (talk I contribs) 07:04, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

  It's an obscure policy; it's understandable to be unaware of it. BilledMammal (talk) 07:05, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

  The policy applies to "large-scale" creation; also "Alternatives [...] include creating the pages in small batches"; the articles were created in batches of around 20. The policy does not mention a recommended amount of time between batches. https://xtools.wmcloud.org/pages/en.wikipedia.org/Saqib goes back to 2014 and only lists 1,899 pages (of which 240 were created in 2024). Creation in small batches can be disruptive if the reliability of the sources is unclear, but approval is not required. Peter James (talk) 11:40, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

  I want to make it clear that I'm not citing non-RS, as you can verify by randomly checking any BLP. —Saqib (talk I contribs) 11:53, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

  From June 2020 to February 2024, Saqib only created one article which was in 2021. In 2024, there were 3 days they went over 24: March 24 created 73, March 26 created 107 and March 29 created 32 so a little over 200 over the period of 5 days which did violate Masscreate. Before that they created a total of 18 articles and since March 29 they have created 9 articles so this is not something they are doing continuously. From what I can tell, these appear to be the result of a recent election. Is that correct, @Saqib: and are you done or are there more? S0091 (talk) 15:12, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

  Yep, that's right I created BLPs for newly elected MPs right after the 2024 Pakistani general election. This is my area of expertise and interest. Not only did I create BLPs, but I also contributed extensively to election page. --—Saqib (talk I contribs) 15:25, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

  Ok. Next time, get approval beforehand even if you do not know exactly how many. I am not sure how much lead time you need so I suggest asking at WT:BRFA. They may also be able to point you to previous approval requests for examples. S0091 (talk) 16:08, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

  I don't foresee the necessity to create a large number of BLPs until the 2029 elections, barring any disruptions to the assemblies. —Saqib (talk I contribs) 16:11, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

  But wait, I didn't use any tools so why would I need to ask at a bot forum? —Saqib (talk I contribs) 16:13, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

  @S0091 and BilledMammal: WP:MASSCREATE states that bot approval is required when it is large-scale automated or semi-automated content page creation. Unless I'm missing something, these completely manual creations by Saqib are fine, since no tools were used? BeanieFan11 (talk) 16:31, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

  My understanding is the method does not matter. If edits/page creations are done in a bot-like/automated fashion, it's covered by the policy. See WP:MEATBOT. S0091 (talk) 16:42, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

  @S0091: There it says that it can be disruptive, but only if there are issues with the content being produced: However, merely editing quickly ... is not by itself disruptive. Are there any issues with these articles besides them being short? BeanieFan11 (talk) 16:45, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

  I reiterate that no tools, scripts, or automation were utilized. Everything was done manually , and I ensured that no mistakes were made.And if anyone finds a mistake, please feel free to provide the diffs. —Saqib (talk I contribs) 16:47, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

  @Lkomdis I think is the only editor who has raised an issue with the content, then BM about Masscreate. Meatbot also states If there is any doubt, you should make a bot approval request. In such cases, the Bot Approvals Group will determine whether the full approval process and a separate bot account are necessary so I think this fits the bill to at least ask at WT:BRFA. S0091 (talk) 17:03, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

  @S0091: IMO, there is no point in making a BRFA request; there's no one who thinks that a bot should be doing these activities (there's likely only going to be a few confused "why are you requesting manual creation be given bot approval?" comments if taken there) and I seriously question the motive behind Lkomdis pointing out these "issues" (see my below comment) – Saqib has used no tools (i.e. completely in-line with MASSCREATE) and as far as I'm aware there's no issues with the content itself – I see nothing that needs to be done here. BeanieFan11 (talk) 17:10, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

  WP:MASSCREATE does list that as an alternative, but it also makes it clear that approval is still required - the only difference is that it suggests approval may be more likely when the proposal is for small batches rather than for large ones. BilledMammal (talk) 15:20, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

  Just to clarify, I didn't use any tools. I created all the pages manually and it was quite a hectic task. —Saqib (talk I contribs) 15:28, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

  @BilledMammal Your reply is appreciated and I agree with you. Lkomdis (talk) 12:05, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

  Even if you were not aware about WP:MASSCREATE, but you kept manufacturing same two articles silently since 2016!, with the use of Autopatrolled Right, if you are not aware about policy guidelines please don't miss use any privilege right.

  @Rosguill This user right was supposed be for prolific creators of clean articles in order to reduce the work load of New Page Patrollers but see what is happening here! Lkomdis (talk) 12:03, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

  Lkomdis, what is your problem?? You return from a four-year absence and one of the first things you do is report this editor to the Teahouse, then after being told its fine report them to Oshwah, then to Bbb23, then to the COI noticeboard, and then bring them to ANI, and it seems you've done almost nothing else? BeanieFan11 (talk) 16:42, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

• Masscreate exists for a reason, it's not just to stop policy or guideline-violating articles. Autopatrol should not exist. It doesn't help NPP (in the big picture it probably makes their job larger by creating walled gardens) and everybody needs a second set of eyes. Taking away autopatrol is not a big deal, it's just normalcy. Which is what should happen here. North8000 (talk) 12:09, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

  Autopatrol should not exist. – Strong disagree. There are clearly some people who do not need their work checked by members of NPP, and that's okay. It doesn't help NPP – Tell that to the massive backlog we have and the lack of volunteers we have to help deal with it. Hey man im josh (talk) 15:49, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

• Agreed with Lkomdis here, Saqib has created multiple BLP's like Syed Adil Askari, Waqar Zaka with WP:Non-RS yet still he is nominating articles, the similar BLP's for WP:AfD.
  • Unsigned, from an IP who seems to dislike one of Saqib's AFDS. BeanieFan11 (talk) 17:13, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

Spirit Fox99

I just noticed some of my cleanup tags were removed in manual reverts by Spirit Fox99 (talk · contribs) with no explanation other than "ridiculous". Looking into it, https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions&target=Spirit+Fox99&offset=&limit=100 has contentious edits aplenty. 24 out of those 100 are explicit Undo reverts. 18 of those 100 have Tags: Reverted in turn. User talk:Spirit Fox99 is likewise littered with warnings since a year ago. Topics seem to be focused on Serbia, but I noticed the editor was not warned of WP:ARBMAC and added that now. Still, this level of likely WP:BATTLEGROUND behavior merits some analysis by uninvolved administrators. --Joy (talk) 08:13, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

How about trying to discuss first, before trying to block literally everyone on that talk page who doesn't agree with your view? You knew that you are editing in a contested area, it's just normal that some discussion will be needed. Bilseric (talk) 14:32, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

This is pretty astonishing to hear coming from you, towards whom I've extended so much courtesy by engaging in discussion over there over the last few weeks. You've been given so many chances, yet you're now apparently following me here and baselessly accusing of impropriety. This is so bizarre, to me this is a demonstration that you're not actually here to build an encyclopedia. --Joy (talk) 16:15, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

ip threatening legal action

User:213.105.33.226 has threatened to sue wikipedia. Not sure how to handle this, but I believe this is the right place to report it. Gaismagorm (talk) 12:30, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

nevermind, just noticed they were blocked. All good! Gaismagorm (talk) 12:33, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

I note that the last entry on their user talk page before they were blocked was a final warning from an account (Guerino Symons) itself blocked for giving inappropriate warnings. Which doesn't affect the validity of the block, of course. ColinFine (talk) 15:29, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

that is quite interesting Gaismagorm (talk) 16:08, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

2A02:14F:177:7C88:779C:F269:1510:632D

Vandalism only IP. See [243][244][245][246] Zinderboff(talk) 12:34, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Administrator intervention against vandalism is a better venue for cases like this. I’ve reported the IP there for you. Bgsu98 (Talk) 12:37, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

Noted. Thanks for the heads up! Zinderboff(talk) 12:38, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

was gonna say that, but you beat me to it Gaismagorm (talk) 12:38, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

Taken care of, and I was going to second WP:AIV for cases like this. RickinBaltimore (talk) 12:38, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

Wow you guys are FAST, thank you all for keeping Wikipedia vandalism-free. Zinderboff(talk) 12:41, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

User:Elite Ali

Non-communicative (almost no edit summaries or significant redressals) user making contentious POVPUSH edits in the (sanctioned) India, Pakistan, and Afghanistan space. All unsourced and and most likely WP:OR. The user has been warned/alerted quite a few times already and administrative action is now required, considering the topic area and the editing behaviour. Gotitbro (talk) 13:44, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

And if the social media links on the user page are anything to go by, it can be seen where this POV slipping from. Gotitbro (talk) 14:26, 9 May 2024 (UTC)