Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents

Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents
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2011 CheckUser and Oversight appointments: Call for applications

The Arbitration Committee is seeking to appoint additional users to the CheckUser and Oversight teams. Experienced editors are invited to apply for either or both of the permissions, and current holders of either permission are also invited to apply for the other.

Successful candidates are likely to be regularly available and already familiar with local and global processes, policies, and guidelines especially those concerning CheckUser and Oversight. CheckUser candidates are expected to be technically proficient, and previous experience with OTRS is beneficial for Oversight candidates. Trusted users who frequent IRC are also encouraged to apply for either permission. All candidates must at least 18 years of age; have attained legal majority in their jurisdiction of residence; and be willing to identify to the Wikimedia Foundation prior to receiving permissions.

Current demand for users with regional knowledge

Because of the increasing activity from the South Asian, Southeast Asian, or Middle Eastern regions, CheckUser applications are particularly sought from people who not only meet our general requirements but also are familiar with the ISPs and typical editing patterns of any of these regions.

If you think you may be suitably qualified, please see the appointments page for further information. The application period is scheduled to close 18 September 2011.

For the Arbitration Committee, –xeno^talk 16:40, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

Discuss this

Future timestamped to prevent archival.OpenInfoForAll (talk) 21:35, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

Complaint against Redthoreau: Dispute over lawsuit sources at Porter Stansberry

Article: Porter Stansberry (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
User being reported: Redthoreau (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Complaint

I removed potentially contentious content sourced to a court document pursuant to WP:BLPPRIMARY. Redthoreau has twice restored this content [1][2] in spite of a warning I placed on his talk page [3]. What is bizarre is that he restored the improper source even though he was aware acceptable sources had been posted on the talk page [4]. Very odd he would intentionally use a source which exposes the Wikimedia Found to unnecessary litigation when he could've just as easily used one of the better sources on talk. Anyway I'm not going to edit war to keep the court filing out when he is Hell bent on including it. If it takes a block to prevent him from re-adding it then so be it. – Lionel ^(talk) 00:31, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

The material is relevant, worthy of inclusion and sourced to the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission. If you believe that the SEC is not a WP:Reliable source on their own lawsuit then you are free to challenge their usage. As for WP:BLPPRIMARY it states that court records should not be solely used to "support assertions about a living person." However, the way the SEC source is currently used it does not do that. Nowhere does it definitively call Stansberry a "fraud" or even say he was guilty of anything. The source is only being used to display the stated charges filed against him. Obviously his rebuttal or counter claims could be included as well from reliable sources. Moreover, you also earlier removed the corroborating source about the lawsuit referenced to Brian Deer of The Sunday Times. However, your misplaced bull in a china shop bravado about "blocks" which you have no ability to carry not notwithstanding; you have provided no talk page rationale about why you believe the material violates any Wiki policies. As for additional sources, they are always of course welcome and preferable to the mass deletions you started off with. I haven't had a chance to thoroughly look at the ones mentioned on the talk page, but will try to if you don't beat me to it.  Redthoreau -- (talk) 01:38, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

1. Please do not refactor my posts. This report is about your behavior, not about content. If you want to file a report about the SEC feel free.
2. Your excuse for repeatedly violating WP:BLPPRIMARY is unacceptable. The "worthiness" of an addition is not an excuse to use unacceptable soucing. It doesn't matter if the source alleges fraud or not. BLPPRIMARY is clear:

   Do not use trial transcripts and other court records, or other public documents, to support assertions about a living person.

(Emph. from original) It says do not. It says assertions. And, note that you did not add secondary sourcing when you re-added the court document. It seems readily apparent that you have no intention of following policy.– Lionel ^(talk) 02:09, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

I think the difference here is that the original content wasn't an assertion. It was simply a description of the legal dispute. The purpose of the BLPPRIMARY note about court proceedings is that you should not make a claim "X is a murderer", and cite it with a court filing. But "X was charged with murder" seems to be a different animal. VanIsaac_WS^contribs 02:19, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

Well at least VanIsaac's logic meter isn't broken. Ah well,  Redthoreau -- (talk) 03:37, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

Setting aside the semantics of assertion for the moment, would you say that sourcing this to an unacceptable reference violates the spirit if not the letter of BLP:

alleged that he "engaged in an ongoing scheme to defraud public investors by disseminating false information in several Internet newsletters", while using the pseudonym Jay McDaniels

– Lionel ^(talk) 02:44, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

I think the WP:BLPPRIMARY was very carefully written. It talks about using primary sources with caution. That assertions should not be backed by a court filing, and that items with personal details should not be linked. It explicitly does not say that you cannot use these as a source, only that there should be other coverage of a particular incident. It also does not say that you cannot use these primary sources as a citation for a description of the allegations, only that you cannot back an assertion with them. Well, there are several independent sources that talk about this case, and the court filing is only used as a source for details about the allegations. I think this very instance is why the BLPPRIMARY guidelines don't simply say "Court records cannot be used as a source in Wikipedia articles". VanIsaac_WS^contribs 03:42, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

• I posted some acceptable sources for this incident on the talk page ([5]). I'm waiting for one of you two to rise to the occasion and incorporate them into the article, although I guess if you keep going back and forth with this feud I'll just do it myself. MastCell ^Talk 02:52, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

(ec)WP:BLPPRIMARY here is intentionally written in a very broad manner, and I believe means what it says, not what Redthoreau wants it to mean. No court document may be used to support BLP info, period. Not about charges filed, not alleged wrongdoing, not about statements made in court, not even about a person's age and occupation. Court documents are not reliable sources because they have not been vetted by independent, editorial judgment. If there are, as Lionelt says, other sources that say substantially the same thing, use those. Until that point, take out the court citations. Qwyrxian (talk) 02:54, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

I completely disagree. That's not what BLPPRIMARY says in the slightest. It says that assertions in BLP articles should not be cited with court records. A court filing is absolutely a reliable source about what a person was charged with, because it is the official record of just that fact. The BLPPRIMARY guidelines do not say "Never use court filings", they say that assertions about a subject should not be solely backed by a court filing, which is a principle I wholly believe in. VanIsaac_WS^contribs 03:42, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

Who does this Vanisaac guy think he is, using all this thinking and stuff? Ban him!  Redthoreau -- (talk) 03:50, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

I've actually posted a notice over at the BLP board asking for their input on this matter, so let's just cool it down and see if some people with more experience can offer us some perspective. VanIsaac_WS^contribs 04:12, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

I flatly dispute any use of a court document in a BLP on the basis that your legal opinion about the meaning of the document is POV. If you took a court document from one American state and gave it to a lawyer in another state, he could not with any confidence render an opinion about the meaning of that document without knowing the laws of that state. This characteristic of requiring a legal opinion to determine their meaning is a characteristic of all court documents irrespective of venue and means that all such opinions about such documents are POV. Please stick to reliable secondary sources for BLP details.Jarhed (talk) 18:28, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

Without getting involved in any other aspects of this dispute, I can readily affirm, as a practicing lawyer with 25 years' experience, that Jarhed's view is significantly overstated. I would not presume to give conclusive advice about the law of another state than the one in which I practice and am licensed, but I certainly could read a court document from another state and have a good idea of what it says and means. Newyorkbrad (talk) 14:52, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps I could put a point on it by asking you to prove your qualifications to judge my legal advice.Jarhed (talk) 16:14, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

To be a little bit less succinct, any talk page post that starts out with the words, "as a practicing lawyer with 25 years' experience", is on its face, PURE POV. I don't care what your experience is and you shouldn't care about mine. All I care about are reliable secondary sources for facts in BLP's. The difference between my statement and yours is that I am quoting out of the BLP guideline and you are pulling yours out of your secret lawyer place.Jarhed (talk) 16:21, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

I have been informed that my remarks are intemperate and I apologize. I want to emphasize that what I said was not directed at any particular person, especially not at editor Brad. My remarks are strictly general in nature, and my vehemence has to do with ensuring strict compliance with BLP. I apologize for my abruptness.Jarhed (talk) 17:01, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

If I could restate my above comment to Newyorkbrad it would be this: Thank you for defending your fellow legal professionals. However, the issue under discussion is BLP policy, which is a completely different subject. The American military has the concept of the "guardhouse lawyer", that is, an unqualified person who believes himself to be more competent at interpreting legal issues than he really is. In my humble opinion, WP is replete with guardhouse lawyers. For my part, I attempt to prevent guardhouse lawyers from making BLP mistakes and do my best to help them be reasonable and productive editors.Jarhed (talk) 08:43, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

I guess my question is, how do you reconcile that the BLPPRIMARY guidelines say that when primary source material is discussed by RS secondary source, the primary source can be used. That seems to contradict your "disput[ing] any use of a court document in BLP" (emphasis mine). Do we have a record as to why the BLPPRIMARY guideline doesn't just say that court records are not RS? I guess I'm trying to get to the bottom of what the drafters of this guideline considered to not be an "assertion". If they meant to apply the assertion label to all content, as you seem to apply the guideline, then they flatly contradicted themselves by saying "it may be acceptable to rely on [primary sources] to augment the secondary source." So what does and doesn't constitute an assertion under BLPPRIMARY guidelines? VanIsaac_WS^contribs 22:39, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

Edit war over section heading

Redthoreau: for the moment I'll ignore the fact that you did not "discuss a heading change with the editor who started the thread" per WP:TPO, and just ask: why on Earth are you edit warring over a section heading? And at all places ANI? – Lionel ^(talk) 07:21, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

Lionelt, both MastCell and I have provided secondary sources on the article talk page which support all the information Redthoreau added. Instead of starting a new subthread, which seems unhelpful and unduly confrontational, why not check those sources, re-add that information with Redthoreau and let this matter drop? Thanks, Mathsci (talk) 07:38, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

Does this mean no block?– Lionel ^(talk) 07:54, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

Lionel, don’t be so hard on yourself. I mean sure you were misguided in filing this complaint – but blocking you over this would be harsh. Just treat it as a learning experience and try to do better next time ;o)  Redthoreau -- (talk) 23:31, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

No administrative action seems to be required at this stage :) Mathsci (talk) 09:09, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

Lionel, I agree with you that the court transcripts alone are not appropriate sourcing. On the other hand, this incident clearly can be covered using appropriate sources, some of which I provided on the talk page. I'm disappointed that Redthoreau has kept fighting to insert the legal filings (and changing section headings). I'm also disappointed that you're pushing for a pound of flesh instead of just rewriting the section using the better sources that were handed to you. That suggests that both of you are more interested in fighting rather than building a better article, at least to me. It's entirely possible that an admin will block Redthoreau, and I can't say it would be undeserved, but the whole situation is disappointing all around. MastCell ^Talk 17:41, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

MastCell, please just add this content yourself, if you have time. As a further green light, Off2riorob has looked at the WP:RS listed on the talk page and agrees that the content should be included in the article.[6] Continued discussion of court transcripts is completely irrelevant in the light of these other sources. Mathsci (talk) 22:08, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

Hmmm. How should I put this... based on this showing, if Lionelt and Redthoreau are the two most active editors on this particular page, I don't think I want to be the third. MastCell ^Talk 04:34, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

Why not other sources?

The BLP problems would disappear if sources such as this one were used for the SEC suit. Binksternet (talk) 13:31, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

Article or topic ban for two users

Boris Berezovsky (businessman) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

User:Deepdish7 (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

User:Kolokol1 (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Request that the two users be banned from editing the Berezovsky article and its Talk page, or possibly a topic ban that would prohibit editing any other article or Talk page related to Berezovsky.

The Berezovsky article has generated a lot of controversy in the last few weeks. It has been locked twice by User:Black Kite. The battle has been fought in many Wikipedia forums, including the following:

• COIN
• BLPN
• the Berezovsky Talk page
• 3RR archive
• ANI

The article is currently locked and will be until September 28. However, Deepdish and Kolokol continue to battle in some of these other forums during the block. At BLPN and at COIN, several editors have endorsed the idea of an article block (the Berezovsky article and Talk page) at a minimum, and possibly a topic ban that would include anything related to Berezovsky.--Bbb23 (talk) 01:04, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

• As a side note: This shows clearly the intention of going on with edit warring after the page protection is lifted.TMCk (talk) 01:18, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

• Support - both users topic banned from editing any other article or Talk page related to Boris Berezovsky - Off2riorob (talk) 01:23, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

Looking over this, I'm seeing that Deepdish7 has issues editing without warring and avoiding other editing issues, and that Kolokol1 has issues with civility. Perhaps it would be easier to give them both a bit more WP:ROPE so that they can hang themselves and earn indefinite blocks? lifebaka++ 01:48, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

Quite frankly, give them more rope and they'll hang themselfes. Not a good idea I thinkTMCk (talk) 01:56, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

• Any topic ban for Kolokol1 will have to be a broadly construed ban. I would suggest a post-1992 Russia topic ban for him, given that he has declared he has a close connection with Berezovsky but refusing to say what that connection is. Not that I am suggesting he should out himself. As he is very clearly an SPA who is engaging in advocacy across a wide range of articles relating to Russian politics, such a topic ban is warranted. But before we enact such a ban, is it possible for him to get a free photo of Berezovsky with OTRS permission for us to use on the article? lol. --Russavia ^{Let's dialogue} 02:25, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

• Just trying to be objective here... Both editors are essentially newbies based on the number of their edits. Perhaps they need some help and advice. They do appear SPA at this point; none of them edited in a wide range of articles. They accused each other of COI problems, which I think was extremely unhelpful. Deepdish7 was already blocked twice, caught with sockpuppetry and said that he is prepared for a "lifetime struggle" [7]. Kolokol1, on the other hand, did not receive a single warning. No idea if any sanctions would be warranted at this point...Biophys (talk) 03:42, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

Please consider useful long term contributors have to deal with this disruption and it affects them - its worthless to the improvement to the Biography itself - never mind giving them more rope - topic ban them now, their disruption of the BLP is enough already. Off2riorob (talk) 03:50, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

Looking at the BLP issues, it's pretty obvious that main problems come from Deepdish3 editing, as was already noted by several people at article talk page. Therefore you was right by reverting edits by Deepdish3 here. I am telling as a long term contributor to these subjects.Biophys (talk) 04:04, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

Can you please point out exactly where I broke any BLP rules??? I haven't seen any proven case so far, and was happy for information I inserted to be changed to make everything NPOV and correspond to BLPDeepdish7 (talk) 05:52, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

User:Deepdish7 is not a newbie, he has been a single propose account since over eighteen months. Just ban him from the BLP and get it over with. Off2riorob (talk) 04:07, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps. Main issue here is not for how long he edited, but that he started receiving official warnings more than a year ago, e.g. here, at the bottom. Biophys (talk) 04:21, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

• support topic ban for both narrowly construed this bio- any wider topic ban for either user is a separate topic, perhaps AE?--Cerejota (talk) 05:46, 16 September 2011 (UTC)
• In case 2 users in question are banned then Off2riorob should also is also banned then from editing anything Berezovsky-related as well as all IP addressed he used for that article, since he was engaged in edit war on Kolokol1's side, and is now engaged in edit war on Paul Klebnikov page Deepdish7 (talk) 05:50, 16 September 2011 (UTC)
• I would also like to point out, that unlike Kolokol1 I was always happy to discuss my edits and change them to be in accordance with NPOV and BLP. Which makes a big difference between me and Kolokol1, and why I think it would be fairly to block him alone in this case.Deepdish7 (talk) 05:57, 16 September 2011 (UTC)
• Even if you decide to block both of us (make sure you block Off2riorob as well as he, again, engaged in same edit wars as Kolokol1), there must be official judgement from Wikipedia whether Paul Klebnikov has right to be represented on Berezovsky's page, since all information which used him as a source was cut from the article by Kolokol1 and Off2riorob. Editors to Berezovsky's article have full right to restore information based on Klebnikov there, and there must be a resolution by wikipedia confirming that, so that Kolokol1/Off2riorob/other users in their company would not vandalise page further and cut everything Klebnikov-basedDeepdish7 (talk) 05:57, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

• support topic ban for Deepdish7. Reading through this thread including his recent defense further down I don't see any other working solution. No comment (as of yet) about Kolokol1.TMCk (talk) 21:52, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

• Comment. Although not strictly relevant, I have just spent a chunk of time backing out changes Kolokol made to this discussion, including but not limited to adding section headers in the middle of previous discussions and making a significant change to one of my comments. I have left a stern warning on Kolokol's Talk page. What really made me angry about this was that there was already a discussion on Kolokol's Talk page that I started with respect to refactoring and the problems associated with it. For Kolokol to come here and repeat the same behavior makes reminds me, regrettably, of Deepdish's unwillingness to follow Wikipedia's policies and guidelines, even when they are brought to his attention.--Bbb23 (talk) 22:10, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

• I inserted two subsections (see diffs below) with the sole purpose of making the reading of this oversized discussion easier for the users. Please don't brand this well-intentioned purely technical improvement as an act of malice - this not constructive and is simply not worthy of everyone's time. And what is the "significant change" I made to your comment? I don't think I did. Please provide diff. Thanks --Kolokol1 (talk) 22:40, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents&diff=prev&oldid=450871837

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents&diff=prev&oldid=450872055

• Sigh. First, I didn't accuse you of malice. Second, I would normally have assumed good faith in the addition of the subsections if it weren't for our previous discussion about refactoring. Even so, I didn't think it was malicious - perhaps more willful or stubborn or something along those lines. Finally, here is the diff of the change to my comment, which is, of course, what bothered me the most.--Bbb23 (talk) 23:19, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

• Oh, I see. I hope you will accept my apology and take my word that this insertion of gibberish in the middle of a word was a completely inadvertent technical error, perhaps a glitch in my keyboard. Happened to my posts too.--Kolokol1 (talk) 23:35, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

• I accept your apology, thanks.--Bbb23 (talk) 23:38, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

Adding subsection headers is a standard practice on Wikipedia. You should have familiarized yourself with the guideline you are referring to before issuing stern warnings. There is, of course, nothing wrong in not being familiar with it, and subheaders weren't strictly necessary here, but warning people over this is a bit rich. At this point I think it is better for you to let Kolokol1 alone, it is obvious that nothing good will come out of this bickering. Colchicum (talk) 22:26, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

Adding subsection headers at the end of these kinds of discussions is common (as has already been done here). Adding them in the middle is not and can cause problems in misleadingly characterizing or confining comments to a particular subsection. And you don't even acknowledge my point that he changed one of my posts, which no matter how you interpret WP:REFACTOR and other related policies, is not permitted.--Bbb23 (talk) 22:35, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

I reviewed the diffs (including the two above) and haven't found any changes in any of your comments. And I am afraid you won't find many supporters of your interpretation of WP:REFACTOR. See WP:REFACTOR#Resectioning. Stop already. Colchicum (talk) 23:05, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

• Response from Kolokol1:If I am banned, I would like to be given a reference to the specific WP policy that I have violated. In the edit war, I was removing information basing on the policy highlighted in the first paragraph of WP:BLP, namely: "Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced should be removed immediately and without waiting for discussion." I have always explained this, specifically referring to this clause. I have never received any warning. My understanding is that the WP:3RR rule is not applicable for WP:BLP. With respect, I do not see how you can ban me for trying to implement your own policy. A ban without explanation and not referenced to a specific violation would be arbitrary and lawless. I will appeal--Kolokol1 (talk) 06:04, 16 September 2011 (UTC)
  • Please refer to Wikipedia:ARBRB#Purpose_of_Wikipedia states that you can't use WP for advocacy. You clearly are, and have admitted as much after the issue was brought up with you. Wikipedia:ARBRB#Decorum states no assumptions of bad faith. You have accused me of being in the employ of the Russian government, and the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. I have dealt with such loony accusations in the past, time and time and time again. And then we have Wikipedia:DIGWUREN#Discretionary_sanctions. Take note. And it goes for both of you. (written by User:Russavia)
    • For the record, I have never admitted engaging in advocacy, as defined by WP:Advocacy. I admitted being connected to the subject, whom I tried to protect from being smeared in an attack page, which is explicitly permitted by WP:BLP#Dealing with edits by the subject of the article.--Kolokol1 (talk) 09:19, 16 September 2011 (UTC)
    • Russavia, my understanding is that I am being reviewed in the context of the edit war over Berezovsky. If am penalized for advocacy, I would like to see specific instances of advocacy in my edits. With regard to you, I indeed suspect you of advocacy for the RusGov - both in your posts, and in your campaigning to have me banned. This is not a bad faith on my part, but evidence-based. I am entitled to ask the question, which was perfectly legitimate in view of your impressive body of work promoting various Russian Government agencies, and particularly your correspondence with the Kremlin spokesman, which you disclosed. I am not unaware that your interlocutors in the Kremlin spend millions on PR contractors in the West (http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2009/aug/24/public-relations-russia-georgia-ketchum ), which, of course, does not necessarily mean that you are one of them. I asked the question, you gave the answer, I am satisfied, matter closed. It is now up to admins to consider whether or not this is relevant. I am not accusing you of COI, but detect a strong bias in favor of RusGov, which, as can be easily sourced, is out to get Mr. Berezovsky. If you want me banned on this basis, please file a separate complaint.--Kolokol1 (talk) 08:12, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

• • You have removed a lot of well-sourced material and violated wikipedia Deletion policy. That alone justifies your ban, as well as having a conflict of interest on this page. I in turn do not have a conflict of interest. If interested admins can see IPs I logged from, one of which was my working address (which should remove any accusations of my connection with Russian government either)Deepdish7 (talk) 07:53, 16 September 2011 (UTC)
    • For the record, I have seen no evidence linking you with the RusGov, in contrast to Rusavia, as explained above--Kolokol1 (talk) 08:49, 16 September 2011 (UTC)
• Question for admins Is it possible to give both editors a WP:DIGWUREN warning, and as written in the remedy, "counselling" on what the problem with their editing is. That is a fair warning to give, and if they decide to hang themselves with that rope, so be it. --Russavia ^{Let's dialogue} 06:22, 16 September 2011 (UTC)
  • Regarding DIGWUREN, I would be happy to have this situation go into arbitration, no problem--Kolokol1 (talk) 09:27, 16 September 2011 (UTC)
• I'd like to see very specific references to what is wrong with the editors. Now, Deepdish7 (talk · contribs) has engaded in sockpuppetry (2 times) [8], repeated instances of edit-warring (wich has already earned him two blocks and page protection of Boris Berezovsky (businessman)), posting copyvios ([9], [10]), massive BLP violations (see the entire edit history of Boris Berezovsky (businessman)), canvassing [11], misrepresentation of sources, incivility, and his only purpose of editing Wikipedia has been "adding negative information" on Berezovsky, which he himself admitted many times and promised to continue no matter what. I haven't seen any disruption of this level from Kolokol1, let alone Off2riorob, who is just trying to enforce our BLP policies. Another relevant ANI thread: [12] Colchicum (talk) 10:25, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

  Support narrowly-construed topic ban (perhaps just the article) for the two editors mentioned in the original post. These two accounts have locked horns and show no intention of disengaging. Not only does a situation like this destabilize an article, it also essentially shuts out any editor who wants to work on the article but doesn't want to enter the morass of angry postings and reversions. Actions not beneficial to WP. The Interior (Talk) 13:19, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

  I'm getting the feeling it'd be easier to just indef Deepdish, Colchicum. He does not seem to understand our policies, or the reasons for them, and when informed about them seems unwilling to follow them. Even after a few blocks for edit warring, he (as mentioned above) does not seem to understand that he is doing anything wrong and (also as mentioned above) believes that what he is doing is justified, both of which are evident from his currently visible unblock request. He's currently blocked for two weeks for edit warring, but I have a funny feeling that he'll end up reblocked within a few days after it wears off, and since blocks are preventative I think we should just cut out the middle man.

  As for Kolokol1, I worry that he is not necessarily here to build an encyclopedia and he is having trouble discussing content rather than contributors, as well as some other civility issues. There's nothing particularly actionable there yet (except perhaps some discretionary sanctions), but as my obvious subtext implies, I'm pretty sure there will be if nothing changes. Kolokol1, please review our civility policy and other behavioral guidelines. You'll find most of your interactions here a lot smoother if you do. Cheers. lifebaka++ 13:59, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

• Lifebaka, thank you for your advice. I would be exceedingly grateful for a specific reference of incivility on my part. Will immediately apologize and take it back. I am all for "discussing content rather than contributors", and urge you to read and comment on my content instead of worrying about my motives for being here, which I have stated on numerous occasions: to protect a friend from being unjustly smeared in violation of Wikipedia's own policies. I would like to add to the attention of admins: your colleague yesterday asked me to make a formal declaration that I have no intention to litigate over what I called "potentially libelous" material, which I did (COIN#I declare that I have no intention ). Then, presumably, coming here and trying to find an alternative remedy from an unjust attack must not be punishable by bans, should it?--Kolokol1 (talk) 14:27, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

Well I think that accusing me of being an SPA who is employed by the Russian government is one specific reference. Another specific reference is where you have repeated the accusation. Another specific reference is where you have, yet again, repeated the accusation. Refer to Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Eastern_European_disputes/Proposed_decision#Involvement_by_security_organs and Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Eastern_European_disputes/Proposed_decision#Editors_counseled. --Russavia ^{Let's dialogue} 15:08, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

• Russavia, for god's sake, these references have nothing to do with me! I did not accuse you of anything, I simply noted that because of your self-proclaimed sympathies, your writings, and your declared contacts with the Kremlin PR Chief, you may be working for them, or have COI. A perfectly natural concern under the circumstances. You inquired about my association with Berezovsky on a much lesser grounds, and I did not take offense. But if I offended you, I am sorry. And you are an SPA, or rather DPA, by your own admission, writing almost exclusively on two subjects, as you name suggests - RusGov agencies, and planes. --Kolokol1 (talk) 15:54, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

• The "general test" for a SPA: "A user who appears to have a very brief editing history, or an apparent focus on one (or at most a handful of) matters or purposes, creating a legitimate reason for users to assess whether their editing and comments appear neutral, reasonably free of promotion, advocacy or personal agendas, aware of project norms, not improper uses of an account, and aimed at building an encyclopedia." In other words, SPA has a clearly negative component to it. Even assuming Russavia is mainly interested in Russian and aviation articles doesn't mean he's a SPA, whereas an account like yours, with relatively few edits, and almost exclusively about Berezovsky, seems to fit the definition. Even assuming, as you state, that you are not using the account "improperly", you admit to having an agenda, which seems to be more about protecting Berezovsky than protecting the article or Wikipedia.--Bbb23 (talk) 16:44, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

Having read everything above, I have some additional comments. Deepdish, on the face of it, is the more obvious editor to sanction. He has a stubborn, obstreperous, although occasionally passive-aggressive, manner. He has been shown previously on ANI not to respond well to attempts by others to counsel him. He has already been blocked and is now blocked again for two weeks. Kolokol is tougher because his demeanor is more professional and because many of his comments, on their face, appear to be more reasonable. However, his admissions at WP:COIN are troubling: "I do not hide having an association with the subject of this BLP, and accept the COI tag, but I do not see why I should be prohibited from editing." He then argues that despite the conflict, based on quoted policy, he should be permitted to edit. However, the policy he quotes should not be considered in a vacuum. This is a highly contentious article, and allowing Kolokol to edit the article in an effort to supposedly protect the subject, will be a nightmare for other editors, as has been shown by recent events. It's one thing for someone to say that an article says "John Doe was convicted of murder", and there's either no source for the assertion or it's simply a hoax, and he was never convicted of murder. That kind of issue is cut-and-dried. However, in the Berezovsky article, the questions as to what are fair assertions and what are not are far more complex and don't lend themselves to such easy review and resolution. It is with these thoughts in mind that I think an article or topic ban is appropriate, not just for Deepdish, but also for Kolokol.--Bbb23 (talk) 15:11, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

Then please show diffs of specific content edits which are disruptive. Reviewing articles on unfamiliar topics is never easy, but it is not a reason to ban people. Frankly I see no nightmare around as long as Deepdish7 is removed. Colchicum (talk) 15:40, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

The practical effect of banning Deepdish but not banning Kolokol will be a continuation of the battle between Kolokol and Russavia. Russavia, a long-time editor, has opposed some of the actions taken with respect to the Berezovsky article in the last few weeks. To some extent, he has "sided" with Deepdish in the sense that he felt that the wholesale removal of Deepdish's edits was an overreaction and that more pinpointed surgery would have been sufficient. At the same time, Russavia and Kolokol have been trading accusations on the Berezovsky Talk page about themselves, their editing history, and their motives. You can see some of that in the links Russavia provides above. I defended Russavia in that discussion (I had opposed some of his comments about other things in the past) because I felt that labeling Kolokol a SPA was amply justified but labeling Russavia a SPA was not. Yet, Kolokol persisted:

"The impressive body of Russavia's edits does not negate the fact that the bulk of his work on WP, as is evident from his personal page, is devoted to creating information material about Russian Ambassadors, Russian Embassies, Foreign trips of Russian president, the bio of Russian presidential spokeswoman, etc. He may be doing this out of obsession with the Russian government trivia, of course, but prima facie it looks like a PR job form the Russian foreign ministry."

and

"Kremlin.Ru, my god! That explains it. So, I guessed right. No, you are no KGB, in the old days they would've called you 'a fellow traveller'. You have as much COI, my friend, as I do. I wonder what letters Deepdish has in his treasure chest."

In my view, this behavior does not militate in favor of permitting Kolokol to edit the article.--Bbb23 (talk) 15:57, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

Well, first of all, what does it have to do with the Berezovsky article? Then I (and probably many others) can't say I disagree with him too much. The bulk of R's work is obviously devoted to just that, nobody would deny this, not even R himself. It does indeed look like a PR job form the Russian foreign ministry, though IMO the obsession version is more plausible and I don't care enough about his reasons to bother with speculations. And what's wrong with the second quote? K recognizes that he doesn't think R is an employee of the Russian government anymore, now he thinks R is just like-minded with them (that's what was probably meant by the "fellow traveller" metaphor), which is not news to anybody even remotely familiar with his editing. I'd just say that this need not concern us. R certainly doesn't feel offended by this in the least, otherwise he wouldn't post this information on every corner. Then you have probably noticed that R himself pestered K with automated COI notices [13], while the discussion with K was already under way in another place, and has a long and dramatic history of battleground behavior. But it is not at all clear what topic bans are supposed to do with that. D is now blocked for two weeks, by the way, so do you see the predicted practical effect? Colchicum (talk) 16:36, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

Or maybe you mean interaction bans... Colchicum (talk) 16:40, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

The practical effect is a world without Deepdish but still with Kolokol, so my comments assume that Deepdish is banned.--Bbb23 (talk) 17:14, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

To Bbb23, with all due respect:

• • Your argument that an interested party should be prohibited from contributing to an article under existing WP guidelines because it "will be a nightmare for other editors" destroys the stated WP policy of discouraging litigation by people who have been wronged by unfounded accusations. It leaves them no alternative remedy (see note to the attention of admins in my response to Lifebaka above)
  • Your argument about permissibility of assertion of murder in complex cases like this, frankly, is quite shocking. What about presumption of innocence? The subject has never been convicted, or charged, or even accused of murder except in the writings of Klebnikov, about whom there is a notable record of allegations of anti-semitism, and whose murder claim has been retracted by his own publisher. And I am not against MENTIONING it, I am against repeating the slur WITHOUT QUALIFICATION. Is this NPOV and BLP?
  • In regard to Russavia. First, I have absolutely nothing to do with the two references that he provided. I never accused him of being the KGB, my reference to KGB was in response to his own words, "They have already called me KGB, etc". Second, as I explained above, my concerns about his possible COI were well founded, because (a) he is the principal writer of material on Russian Foreign Service and other RussGov agencies on Wikipedia and (b) in his article on Abkhazia - a Georgian province, occupied and annexed by Russia - he simply repeats the Kremlin propaganda line that it is a sovereign state, the notion discounted by the rest of the world. When on top of that he produced a personal letter from the Kremlin Chief of PR, Ms. Natalia Timakova, who actually distributes millions in contracts, every reasonable person would have asked him whether or not he is working on a contract. I assumed good faith, accepted his word and did not report him for COI. If asking such questions could lead to a ban, then why have WP:COIN in the first place? Perhaps my remark about Kremlin.Ru was excessively ironic. And I take the "fellow traveller" back, he is simply a "Russophile", as he calls himself. --Kolokol1 (talk) 16:57, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

You make three points.

1. There is a remedy. Other editors are perfectly capable of responding to alleged BLP violations.

2. You misunderstood. I compared a hypothetical article with an accusation of murder to the Berezovsky article generally. I am not addressing any specific accusations against Berezovsky.

3. My comments about you and Russavia have more to do with what I call the "practical effect" below. I see endless unconstructive bickering ahead, which is not conducive to improving the article.--Bbb23 (talk) 17:12, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

1. for some reason, they have not. The article has been there for nearly 3 years with tons of complaints and abortive rescue attempts, but when I bumped into it three months ago, it was quite a disaster.

2. sorry for misunderstanding

3. Well, I did not edit war with Russavia, He seems quite reasonable for a Russophile :). I am sure, I could work with him--Kolokol1 (talk) 18:44, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

Do not add additional editors when the discussion is already underway

I have reverted Deepdish's addition of Off2riorob mid discussion because it is confusing. People were supporting and opposing the ban of the original two, you can't sneak a third in there that they had no comment on. If you want to propose a separate ban do so separately. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 14:30, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose Topic Ban of Kolokol1 Kolokol1 has received no blocks, and most of the warnings on their talk page are for forgetting to sign comments. The evidence presented here is no where near enough to support a rather drastic restriction on Kolokol1's editing. A topic ban should never be a first resort when there is a conflict at an article, and the evidence here does not indicate that alternative corrective measures have been tried and failed, at least in regards to Kolokol1. Monty₈₄₅ 15:01, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

• Comment. Our edits criss-crossed. I have stated my concerns about Kolokol just above this "subsection". I don't completely disagree with you, though. Whether or not to ban Kolokol is a tougher decision.--Bbb23 (talk) 15:14, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

• Agree with Lifebaka. Site ban Deepdish7 and issue a civility warning for Kolokol1. An especially troubling sign is the posting by Deepdish7 on ruwiki asking for help against people allegedly "bought by Berezovsky".Biophys (talk) 19:02, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

  Could you link that, please? I don't speak Russian, but I'm pretty sure that a machine translation will get enough of the gist. lifebaka++ 19:25, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

  • [14]. There are some words I wouldn't expect any machine translator to know, though. Colchicum (talk) 19:33, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

Oh yes, he said: "админ BlackKite, заблокировавший англоязычную версию страницы, охуел совсем уже". But incivilty on another wiki probably does not count. The real problem is WP:Canvassing. I wonder how many people may appear to support his version of article Berezovsky. This "oligarch" is quite unpopular in Russia. Biophys (talk) 20:46, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

Google translator: "admin BlackKite, who locked the English version of the page is quite ohuel". "Ohuel" in plain Russian means "out of his f--king mind".--Kolokol1 (talk) 21:44, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

Well, I see that Deepdish is back with a vengeance. I will then heed to the advice of a fellow wikipedian to avoid the drama and rest my case. Let the river run its course. Leaving the battlefield to connoisseurs (and Russophiles :) Thank you everyone--Kolokol1 (talk) 21:34, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

Okay, so when I originally supported the idea of a ban for both Deepdish7 and Kolokol1, I wasn't aware of all the details at the time. Here is my analysis... Kolokol1 is a long-time editor (has been on Wikipedia longer than me even) with over 1,000 edits and a clean block log. Deepdish7 has been around for a few months and has been blocked three times (including a current block) for edit-warring and sockpuppetry. I also see some evidence of canvassing. I don't see the same level of disruption from Kolokol1, or really any actual disruption. Therefore I don't think that equilateral action is called for. I'm definitely more in favor of banning Deepdish7 than Kolokol1. I think that a page ban from the main page of the Berezovsky article would be sufficient. Having said that, I do have some concerns about Kolokol1's conflict of interest, but as long as the COI is openly acknowledged and not accompanied by actual disruption I don't think that it causes a problem. I already cautioned Kolokol1 at the COI noticeboatd about being careful when accusing others of libel, per WP:NLT#Perceived legal threats. -- Atama頭 01:12, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

Atama, saying Kolokol is a "long-time editor" is not quite accurate. Kolokol edited first for a few days in 2006, then nothing until 2008, at which time he made 4 edits to the Berezovsky page. After that, he didn't edit until July of this year. So, although it's true he has been editing since 2006, he really has only been editing in earnest since July of this year. I'm glad you weighed in, though - I wondered what had happened to you. :-) --Bbb23 (talk) 01:29, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

Fair enough. My point is that even though Kolokol1 has had more activity overall than Deepdish7, he has a clean block log, which would indicate that Deepdish7 is far more prone to disruption, and that's why I no longer support applying the same measures to both editors. -- Atama頭 02:11, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

Thank you, Atama, for taking time to review my history and for acknowledging my clean record. I would still hope that any administrative action taken would cite a specific WP policy that I violated and give a reference to the violation. If I am banned simply to "balance" a justified restraining measure applied to another user, this would not be rooted in any of current WP policies. I scrupulously obeyed all the rules and will exercise my right of appeal in case of an arbitrary sanction.--Kolokol1 (talk) 09:55, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

deepdish would like to defend himself a bit

• First of all, despite not having received any warnings (I didn't know it's so important to give a warning here and whether they matter at all, but Kolokol1 clearly knew what he was doing because he saw me getting blocked for exactly same things as he was doing), Kolokol1 has violated multiple wiki policies, such as conflict of interest, one-purpose account, edit warring, deletion, advocacy. He does not only have issues with civility as lifebaka++ mentioned, it's far from that.
• If you want en example of him being engaged in edit warring, check history of Berezovsky page. In the last couple of days, or check it It's just obvious what he was doing. Or check this report:

[15] he wasn't blocked simply because I reported him from another account. You can say it's wrong to report from sockpuppet account and I understand that, but apart from strict wiki rules there's truth and lies, and the truth is that he's been engaging in absolutely same edit wars, but his friends would always report me before I reported him. If that only fact vindicates him in your opinion, then go on block me and don't block him, would be logical. Notice also, that some sockpuppets were protecting Berezovsky on the discussion page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Boris_Berezovsky_%28businessman%29/Archive_2#Major_POV_issues http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Jw2035 would not be surprised if this Jw2035 turned out to be Kolokol1's sock puppet.

• Unless you clearly want to see only rules broken by me and intentionally ignore rules broken by him you will notice that Kolokol1 broke at least as many rules as I did. I don't see that many issues with BLP that I wasn't ready to discuss/edit. The problem always was that Kolokol1 never wanted to discuss anything - he would simply cut text from the article. But since they would be the first to report, it was me who was getting blocked, though again we were engaged in absolutely same edit war, as I reverted his edits as he never responded, just kept saying that everything that Klebnikov said regarding Berezovsky should be erased because some magazine accused Klebnikov of anti-semitism (which doesn't make any sense since he never mentioned Berezovsky's ethnicity, spent his youth in the USA where any racism is strictly prohibited and was a chief editor of Forbes Russia magazine).
• I still haven't heard any opinion on whether Off2RioRob should be banned as well. Carefully check Berezovsky's page edit and you'll see him again engaging in same edit war. He also engaged in edit war with me yesterday on Klebnikov page and I got blocked while he didn't simply because he reported me first. Check history of this page: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Paul_Klebnikov&action=history. Moreover he even had enough audacity to revert my edit today, once he already had 4 reverts in the last 24h.
• Even if you decide to block me (make sure you block Off2riorob as well as he, again, engaged in same edit wars as Kolokol1), there must be official judgement from Wikipedia whether Paul Klebnikov has right to be represented on Berezovsky's page, since all information which used him as a source was cut from the article by Kolokol1 and Off2riorob. Editors to Berezovsky's article have full right to restore information based on Klebnikov there, and there must be a resolution by wikipedia confirming that, so that Kolokol1/Off2riorob/other users in their company would not vandalise page further and cut everything Klebnikov-based
• "Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced should be removed immediately and without waiting for discussion" that Kolokol1 is trying to use to justify his actions doesn't work here - he was erasing simply everything, not just unsourced or poorly sourced material. And he will continue doing so, I'm 100% sure
• "For the record, I have seen no evidence linking you with the RusGov, in contrast to Rusavia, as explained above" by Kolokol1 is lies again. Check below link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Boris_Berezovsky_%28businessman%29/Archive_2#Anti-semitic_Bias "From your above comment it is clear that you are on a mission to expose the criminality of Mr. Berezovsky and establish the superiority of Russia over Britain in matters of the rule of law and freedom of the press. While I do not question the sincerity of your zeal, Wikipedia is not a Kremlin propaganda outlet but an objective source of information."

• Would also be happy for the page to go into arbitration in case we're not banned lifetime with Kolokol1 on working on this page. Without arbitration there will be a mess if we're both or only I alone am banned, as Kolokol1 doesn't listen to anyone and erases all negative information on the page and inserts white lies in order to whiten Berezovsky's reputation (with whom he confessed of being connected, and as his nickname suggests he works for Berezovsky's Kolokol website).
• "And I am not against MENTIONING it, I am against repeating the slur WITHOUT QUALIFICATION. Is this NPOV and BLP?" this is again lies by Kolokol1, he deletes all negative material on Berezovsky without paying attention to whether it's NPOV or not, he just deletes everything. Just read Berezovsky page history for the last two days
• "Well, I did not edit war with Russavia, He seems quite reasonable for a Russophile :). I am sure, I could work with him" - lies again, he doesn't "work" with anyone, but deletes sourced material at his discretionDeepdish7 (talk) 20:14, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

Another good example of Kolokol1 not willing to discuss anything but just willing to whiten Berezovsky's reputation: I posted proposed changes on Berezovsky's discussion page. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Boris_Berezovsky_%28businessman%29#Request_for_changes_and_continuation_of_debate_started_in_August Noone apart from Bbb23 has shown willingness to discuss anything. Kolokol1 had perfect chance to discuss, but when the block expired he preferred to engage in edit warring instead.Deepdish7 (talk) 20:23, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

I checked the 3rr report you'd filed as a sock and there was clearly NO violation by Kolokol1. You're right now blocked (again) for violating exactly this rule and you still don't get it right and reading the rest of your post just reads like "some one is digging his hole deeper".TMCk (talk) 21:35, 16 September 2011 (UTC)
And in my opinion you're already past 6 feet.TMCk (talk) 21:42, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

Kolokol-1 could be useful to calm things down :) . Count Iblis (talk) 22:02, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you mean by that (sarcassm or truth) but I think Kolokol1 has shown some professionalism here and seems to be willing to hold his temper and be more civil in the future. I wouldn't wonder if they would do so if they don't have to deal with Deepdish7 at the article in question. Just a thought.TMCk (talk) 22:52, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

Follow his link, it was just a (not very funny) pun. Colchicum (talk) 22:55, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing out the (stupid) link that I of course didn't check as it is apparent in the first part of my post.TMCk (talk) 23:06, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

• More response to Deepdish7's defense post: There is another problem I see here. You write:
  "...Kolokol1 had perfect chance to discuss, but when the block expired he preferred to engage in edit warring instead."
  You give the impression that Kokolol1 was blocked at some point even so they have a clean block log unlike you of course who even now can't add this page without a legit proxy as you're sitting out yet another block of 2 weeks for edit warring. Not that i wonder since you already made clear on BlackKite's talkpage that you'll resume reverting (called edit warring here on wiki) after the protection of the article in question is lifted.TMCk (talk) 23:27, 16 September 2011 (UTC)
  • He is specifically talking about the article being unlocked, not Kolokol being unblocked. I can attest that Deepdish did post on the talk page whilst the article was locked, seeking opinion, and nothing was responded to. Due to the oft cite "silence equals consent", all editors had the opportunity to discuss changes to the article, but they said nothing. Instead they engaged in reverting Deepdish when he made changes to the article. Look at this objectively, not just one way ok. Russavia ^{Let's dialogue} 12:09, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
    • Just a technical side note: An article can be "protected" or "locked" but only editors are "blocked".TMCk (talk) 13:59, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
      And it's the other way around: "Silence doesn't equal consent".TMCk (talk) 14:04, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
      • Agreed, silence does not usually equal consent. This was another instance in which Deepdish tried to make up his own rules as to procedure. In a less controversial situation, I can see an editor going ahead and making a change when he receives no response on a Talk page to a proposal, but this was hardly a normal situation. Part of the problem is Deepdish is just too impatient, not unfortunately an uncommon problem on Wikipedia.--Bbb23 (talk) 14:15, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

Harrassment by Kolokol1

Please refer to this rubbish. Why does he feel the need to do this? It may as well read:

1. You said you wrote to the girl
2. The girl said she was raped
3. You denied you raped her
4. I believe you
5. But hey, I am going to accuse you of being a rapist via the back-door again by leaving shit like this on your talk page.

And yes, I stand by my edit summary when I removed it. As anyone who is familiar with cases involving myself, this accusation is something I have had to put up with for a long, long time....hell Colchicum even basically insinuated the same thing above...instead of possibly informing the editor on his talk page in his discussions that there is no evidence of that, and continued accusations are harrassment and to drop it. Colchicum's comments above only encourage crap like this.

Tell Kolokol1 to stay away from me. He is here to engage in advocacy, and I'll be damned if I am going to continue to be accused of crap like that on a continual basis. I suggested a WP:DIGWUREN warning for Kolokol1; you guys wanted to give him a civility warning? LOL yeah I see that was really going to work. Russavia ^{Let's dialogue} 21:39, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

My note to Russavia was a well-intended and civil attempt to put the matter to rest by giving him the benefit of the doubt for the record. It was not intended for further discussion. In response, I got curses and insults. I do not know what to say, this place is really a minefield.--Kolokol1 (talk) 22:20, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

Kolokol1, generally when one puts a matter to rest, it stays there. So, if I see you continuing to badger Russavia about this perceived COI, I will block you. Russavia, if Kolokol1 does do this, drop me a line on my talk page with the diff. I also agree with DJSasso's comment below, that was not called for. Cheers. lifebaka++ 00:29, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps based on the edit summary in Kolokol's post, Russavia should get a civility warning.--Bbb23 (talk) 22:49, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

Kolokol1's harassment of Russavia is about as egregious as it gets. I think we should finally start doing something about the constant attacks on Russavia by Kolokol1 and other users. Nanobear (talk) 23:26, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

This topic isn't about Russavia (it's about Deepdish and Kolokol). Perhaps, you should start a new topic about these attacks by editors other than Kolokol if you feel it requires administrative intervention.--Bbb23 (talk) 23:46, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

Hey BBB23, have you stopped beating your wife? --Russavia ^{Let's dialogue} 23:55, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

Wow...seriously? Consider this a civility warning Russavia. Another personal attack like that will end up in a block. -DJSasso (talk) 00:10, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

THANK YOU!! I wasn't attacking bbb23, but was attempting to show what Kolokol's comments that were left on my talk page were akin to. If I asked you that same question I would expect you to tell me to fuck off too. Now that I have shown that asking users if they have stopped beating their wife, is exactly what Kolokol posted, I expect some action to be taken against him. He has trolled my talk page to provoke me, specifically after he was told what he has been told above, and he got the answer he deserved. But if you want to give me a civility warning for my response to Kolokol1, that's fine, I promise to never ever ever call anyone an idiot again. On the other hand, SPA trolls need to be told straight. --Russavia ^{Let's dialogue} 00:30, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

Wading thorough all of this: Support topic bans for Deepdish regarding all Russian "oligarchs". Propose administrative deletion of the problem BLP entirely. Propose topic ban for Russavia on all Russian "oligarchs. " Propose that Russavia be trouted for personal attacks. Cheers. Collect (talk) 00:09, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

Collect, please see Griswaldo's comment above about adding another editor to this topic.--Bbb23 (talk) 00:21, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

Administrative action

I believe this topic has been fleshed out by a number of contributors and the time has come for closure. My sense is there is a consensus for topic banning Deepdish, but it's not clear what action, if any, will be taken with respect to Kolokol. Although I raised these issues here, I did it partly because of comments by other editors in other forums favoring topic bans for both editors. After having followed all of the comments here, my support for a topic ban for Kolokol has weakened but not disappeared. I recognize that the community prefers progressive action rather than more drastic action unless there's sufficient evidence to warrant skipping intermediate sanctions. Based on that model, I'm not sure I see sufficient evidence to warrant banning Kolokol. At the same time, I see a pattern that indicates a probability of more trouble without such a ban.

When Deepdish first came here complaining, there was some disagreement as to what action against him was warranted. Ultimately, he received a fairly short block, but not too long after that, he received the longer block that is now in place. Although there is no question that Deepdish's and Kolokol's styles are completely different, I see a strong possibility of the same thing happening with Kolokol if only minimal sanctions are imposed. But I also recognize a certain unfairness in imposing greater sanctions based on speculation as to what might happen in the future.

Finally, putting Deepdish and Kolokol aside for a moment, I see a greater problem with factions in editing some of these articles, with more experienced editors battling as to content and adopting, mentoring, and coaching less experienced editors as part of their group. Although generally mentoring new editors is a good thing, in this instance, it seems more agenda-related rather than helping newbies learn about Wikipedia. It's a troubling dynamic.--Bbb23 (talk) 15:09, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

• I think this diff summarizes all facts about two users in question. Biophys (talk) 15:34, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

Well, that's certainly Colchicum's view of the situation, which I suppose you must support - speaking of factions ([16] - see also WP:SPEAKENGLISH).--Bbb23 (talk) 16:03, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

Here is the problem: people are looking for malicious intentions (COI, work for someone, tag teaming). They should not. Simply look at the recent history of disruption by user X, as evident from his warnings and blocks, and check if he did the same a year ago. Biophys (talk) 19:01, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

I'm making no accusations of malice. However, in just the short time I've been looking, I do see evidence of admitted conflicts and factionalization. Is that relevant to the current ban request? Maybe not, but it's worth noting.--Bbb23 (talk) 19:15, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

You could be be right if someone supported the sides by reverts in article of the conflict. Let's look at the edit history [17]... Only one person previously sanctioned in EE affairs was involved in edit warring (on the side of Deepdish7 [18]). Do you mean we must assume bad faith on his part? Biophys (talk) 20:19, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

My sense of factionalization (the conflicts are admitted) is based on comments on Talk pages and forums, not so much on actual article edit history. I think those comments have evidentiary value and are relevant. The edit history on the Berezovsky article is long and tortured, and I stopped looking at it as it spun out of control, which, by the way, was something I predicted on the Berezovsky Talk page would occur.--Bbb23 (talk) 20:28, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

Please note that there will be possibly be ramifications for other users in relation to the harrassment that is continuing here by Kolokol1 and another user. --Russavia ^{Let's dialogue} 20:39, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

• Support Topic Ban Deepdish7. Ban should cover the article and talk pages of Boris Berezovsky (businessman) and all other article and talk pages related to Berezovsky. Evidence of disruptive, non-neutral editing plus unwillingness to abide by Wikipedia rules, policies, and guidelines.--Bbb23 (talk) 18:23, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

• Support Warning Kolokol1. Warning should cover the article and talk pages of Boris Berezovsky (businessman) and all other article and talk pages related to Berezovsky. Evidence of conflict, some incivility, and possible agenda. Warning should counsel caution in editing these pages and that any subsequent evidence of policy violations may result in a ban.--Bbb23 (talk) 18:23, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, but I must protest here. A full ban from editing any article related to Berezovsky is a must. The conflict of interest here is major. The editor has admitted that they are directly connected to him, so we must take him at his word, that he is connected. Him editing any article is akin to all the American politicians whose staffers edit articles...we frown upon that in a major way, and the parallel here is the same.

In the last week of Litvinenko's life, it was also Berezovsky's money that bought the publicity campaign, so expertly fronted by Alex Goldfarb. Thus the view that the British public had of Litvinenko's illness and death was essentially dictated by Berezovsky. Until the very end, neither the hospital, nor the British authorities, nor the Russian embassy contributed anything at all. Berezovsky, through Goldfarb and the PR company, Bell Pottinger, had the field entirely to himself.[19]

Are you guys seriously suggesting that someone connected to Berezovsky, given the above, is not here to engage in advocacy? WP:CAMERA is a great thing to remember.

Additionally, some incivility? I call it outright harrasment. If you refer to the "dark forces" comment on his talk page, who exactly is he referring to here? And the other editor egging him on isn't helping matters either. --Russavia ^{Let's dialogue} 21:38, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

I think there may be something else happening here as well. If this person is connected with Berezovsky, which they say they are, please know that Berezovsky currently is under suspicion of ordering the murder of Anna Politkovskaya.[20][21][22][23] Kommersant isn't some yellow journalism newspaper (like Novaya Gazeta) -- in fact, it is one that Berezovsky himself used to own. Given that Novaya Gazeta has thus far approved of how the case is proceeding, there could be some major goings on in the future in relation to Berezovsky, and because of this, the ban from editing anything in relation to Berezovsky is needed as a preventative measure, not as a punitive one. And given that they have already threatened legal action (and retracted it), this Berezovsky topic ban is needed. --Russavia ^{Let's dialogue} 21:52, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

This calls for a response.

• (1) For the record I never threatened a legal action, and hence could not have retracted it. A WP administrator asked me to declare that I have no intention of legal action in view of the nature of the material that I removed, and I immediately complied ( http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Conflict_of_interest/Noticeboard&diff=450728909&oldid=450728466 )
• (2) In regard to Anna Politkovskaya, Kommersant reported leaked information that a suspect in custody testified that Berezovsky "could have been" involved in Politkovskaya's killing. A spokesman of Memorial (society), a major human rights group, immediately made a statement of concern that the testimony could have been extracted by torture - based on prior history (http://www.grani.ru/blogs/free/entries/191478.html ). Politkovskaya's colleagues at Novaya Gazeta discounted the Berezovsky theory and the attorney for Politkovskaya family said that her clients "do not need an appointed perpetrator" as reported in the same story in Kommersant (http://www.ryzkov.ru/look_new.php?id=13351 ). The leak has not been officially confirmed and Berezovsky is not a suspect. It is precisely for balancing the one sided presentation displayed above by Russavia that I feel my presence here would be conducive to WP goals
• (3)Regarding Litvinenko, it is illustrative that in the initial article that I sought to improve, the suspicion for the murder was pinned solely on Berezovsky (sourced to the statement of the ex-head of FSB in Moscow) without even mentioning the fact that the British police has named another suspect, whom Russia is refusing to extradite. This is another example of a smear editing, which should not be allowed to stand here.
• (4) "The forces of darkness" was a humorous remark on my talk page, which was accompanied be the :-) smiley, intended to mock another editor's paranoia (diff: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Kolokol1&diff=451198551&oldid=451149619 )
• (5) In regard to incivility, I confess to voicing a concern about Russavia's possible advocacy, but this pales in comparison to him calling me an "idiot" or advising me to "fuck off" [24] (which BTW proves that my concern was unfounded, because RusGov would never have authorized using such language)--Kolokol1 (talk) 00:48, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
• (6) The notion of preventive sanctions because "there could be some major goings on in the future" sounds so exquisitely Russian satirical literature - Gogol or Chekhov. Is that serious?

Whether he is here to engage in advocacy is decided not by your speculations but by his behavior. So far nobody has presented a single diff of his disruptive editing to be prevented. Where did he threaten with legal action? And his incivility is very mild by Wikipedia standards, yours, or mine, or others', for that matter. Kommersant is no yellow journalism, it is just reporting allegations, but what do they have to do with the issue in question? I am not following you here. Colchicum (talk) 22:54, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

• Support Topic Ban for Deepdish7 for EE topics broadly construed. Multiple BLP violations, canvassing for meat puppet assistance on ru Wiki. --Martin Tammsalu (talk) 01:45, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
• Support Barnstar for Kolokol1. For displaying decorum under pressure. --Martin Tammsalu (talk) 01:45, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

Accusations of stalking

Ken keisel (talk · contribs) is accusing me of wikistalking and being "a real danger here". Considering his edits show ongoing problems with the concept of WP:Verifiability and WP:Original research, as these diffs indicate, I ask that he be restricted from making similar accusations about editors who are making good-faith efforts to insure that articles he has worked on comply with Wikipedia policy. Thank you. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 18:38, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

• I agree with Sarek's take on this. --John (talk) 18:45, 16 September 2011 (UTC)
• The user in question (keisel) has been here for nearly 6 years, albeit with some lengthy gaps. But he should know better... unless he's been flying under the radar until now. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 18:46, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

A review of SarakOfVulcan's edit history will show that he has been following each of my edits with edits of his own for the last week, regardless of subject. These edits include subjects that SarakOfVulcan has previously shown no interest in. The situation became disturbing when SarakOfVulcan made an edit on the Gerhardt Cycleplane article, that took place on 20:00, 9 September 2011. SarakOfVulcan deleted a factual statement referenced from a cited book published by the US Air Force. In his explanation he posted; "just about every other ref calls the Gossamer Condor the first successful human-powered craft", referring to an aircraft that appeared a half century later. The article lists several Human-powered aircraft that existed before it, with appropriate citations. SarakOfVulcan offered no reference for his claim, which contradicts the properly referenced information in the article. SarakOfVulcan has been warned that continued editing of every article I have edited, often with erroneous information as seen above, would result in the matter being placed on the appropriate Wikipedia notice board. - Ken keisel (talk) 19:01, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

The issue seems to be the definition of "successful". They apparently did a few test flights. Did anything come of it? Or was it like the "Spruce Goose", i.e. flown a little bit and then mothballed? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:15, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

No, the issue is Ken keisel using selective sourcing, or not bothering to source at all. The Cycleplane article is just one instance of an ongoing problem.--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 19:25, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

The Wright 1903 Flyer made a couple of test flights before being wrecked by a strong wind. It was rebuilt into a different aircraft, but is still considered the world's first "successful" airplane. The total number of flights made is not relevent. - Ken keisel (talk) 20:03, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

SarakOfVulcan wouldn't know about selective sourcing, since he prefers not to use sources at all. See his comments on the 20:00, 9 September 2011 edit of the Gerhardt Cycleplane article. - Ken keisel (talk) 20:03, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

"prefers not to use sources at all." Riiiiiiiiiight. You know, Ken, your history of putting things on Wikipedia with this level of reliability is why we're in this discussion. Stop digging.--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 20:09, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

You can say what you want, but you edit is there for everyone to see. - Ken keisel (talk) 20:12, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

This is the edit in question, by the way.--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 20:16, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

It looks like he's already been warned on his talk page, Sarek. I'll input there. lifebaka++ 19:37, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

Lifebaka, I'm sorry, but I cannot accept "input" as a verb. Informally, maybe, or in a memo, but not in a public forum like this one. Drmies (talk) 20:10, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

Agreed. Verbing weirds language. --Alan the Roving Ambassador (User:N5iln) (talk) 20:31, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

Well, it's a verb, just not an intransitive one. You have to input something, you can't just input. At least, my Apple ][ would always complain if I failed to input something following an INPUT statement.</pedantry> 28bytes (talk) 20:42, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

Question Sarek could you explain, preferably with some diffs, why Ken keisel's edits are being legitimately followed as part of your job as an administrator? John and Bwilkins have both said that this is what you're doing, but I'm not sure I understand why. Thanks.Griswaldo (talk) 20:41, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

WP:WIKIHOUND states "Correct use of an editor's history includes (but is not limited to) fixing errors or violations of Wikipedia policy, or correcting related problems on multiple articles." In this diff, I removed a statement about Irving Harper that was cited to a particular source, when a Google Books search in that source showed that Harper's name appeared nowhere in the book, never mind in a way that supported the edit. In this diff, I removed a statement that appeared nowhere in the given source. In this diff, I supplied a reference supporting an unexplained change that Ken keisel had made. In this diff, I removed uncited original research. Do you notice a trend here?--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 20:58, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

I notice two trends. 1) Ken keisel is not referencing claims the way he is supposed to and 2) Sarekofvulcan seems to be addressing this problem in a very aggressive manner. Much of the actual information in question, provided your own diffs, appears to have been correct but inadequately sourced. Aren't there other ways to handle this? Do non BLP, non-vandalism edits need to be flat out reverted because you, one reviewer, aren't seeing the information in the sources provided? Aren't there tags to show that something fails verification? Aren't there ways to try to bring issues like this up with someone in a collegial manner that might actually help them reform their habits? We want knowledgeable people editing here. Of course we want them to abide by policy when they do so, but it just seems to me that there is room for improvement on how this has been handled. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 21:21, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

People have been collegially telling Ken keisel to cite sources for three years now. It hasn't worked yet. If you think you can get him to follow policy where nobody before you has succeeded, feel free to engage him yourself.--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 21:33, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

One diff merely shows someone saying that to him once, and not a repeated pattern of him getting advice over and over again which is what your statement claims. Now I'm not saying that other people haven't pointed this out to him, or that this hasn't been a problem for years. I'm simply saying that following him around and reverting his additions isn't a particularly productive way to solve the problem, and I don't care that two other admins claim this is part of your job, because IMO its simply going to provoke this editor to do things like accuse you of stalking. Perhaps he needs a mentor? Perhaps you need to start an RfC? Perhaps he can be leveled with if someone else steps in? Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 21:38, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

two years, 8 months. Not just "one diff".--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 10:57, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

This is within the normal scope of admin interventions. The question is, if another admin takes over who has no other background history here, will there be any change in ultimate outcome in responses.

Ken's right that Sarek seems to have made one mistake while responding to Ken, but Ken's missing the point that everything else appears to be reasonable "You can't say that without sourcing, and this is becoming a behavioral problem" admin response.

A mentor or RFC would be great. But the policy is pretty straightforwards. Ken, please listen to the feedback that sourcing accuracy and citations are important. You're being far too loose with this and it's gotten you in trouble (and will continue to get you in worse trouble if you don't correct the problem).

Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 22:20, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

• You'll find a thread on Ken's talkpage from me about using sources as well [25]. In this case the problem was using 'insider information', and a sense on Ken's part that he was doing the project a favour by including such info, which he cannot source because it's not been made public yet. All his articles are about aircraft, not BLPs, so it's slightly less problematic, but the talk page contains numerous conversations about sources, so it is an ongoing problem.Elen of the Roads (talk) 22:38, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

Couple of more concerning things [26] demanding to know if Sarek is a child - not helpful. Also [27] and [28] which appear to be fibs designed to get Sarek into trouble - even less helpful. Elen of the Roads (talk) 22:44, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

Elen those links convince me even more so that he needs a mentor, or that a systematic effort to evaluate the problems with his editing are needed if he can't be leveled with. Going around reverting his edits is clearly not an end in itself. I can't imagine that Sarek is resigned to shadow another editor as a solution to this problem. I wont speculate to motives but all I can see happening from that activity is provoking something out of Ken that might get him blocked or otherwise dealt with. Most of the edits Sarek linked to from Ken were accurate pieces of information that were added without the proper sourcing. The encyclopedia gains nothing if good edits that are poorly sourced are deleted as opposed to actually verified. Such edits also do not require deletion on sight, like BLP and vandalism concerns do. In fact in most other circumstances deleting as opposed to tagging or discussing on talk will lead people to think the deleting editor is the disruptive one. Another question to you all is, what is being sought here? What type of solution are you all looking for? More warnings building up a block? Or do you want this editor to actually comply with policy, because again I suggest other means will work more effectively.Griswaldo (talk) 23:25, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

A very minor point: it's "Sarek", not "Sarak". This edit summary seems to indicate that Ken knows it's actually spelled Sarek (plus, all one has to do is use their freakin' eyes to see that it's not "Sarak"). Doc talk 03:21, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

I would have considered that pedantic if it wasn't misspelled a total of 7 times in this thread. -- Atama頭 04:14, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

It would be basically respectful (and correct) if Kan (eep) Ken would spell it properly from here on in, Atema (urk) Atama ;> Doc talk 06:24, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

I took a second look in light of the comments. Maybe mentorship would be a good idea. Not sure if I can commit that much time to it but I am happy to keep an eye on Ken, if he will accept that. Or maybe someone else has more time? --John (talk) 07:04, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

I find Griswaldo best reflects my thoughts regarding this thread. I do not think any of SarekOfVulcan's actions should be considered an admin function. It is the function of normal editing. While SarekOfVulcan might demonstrate sound judgement with regard to admin tool use, he is not in keeping with best practices for collaborative editing. I also know that Ken is amiable to collaboration, as we have interacted personally. This thread became disproportionate when the biggest deal was made regarding semantics. How improper it should be for an editor to say you appear to be stalking me. The initial argument was to ask Ken to retract his concern (his word), and to adopt the opposing rational, which effectively was; "He didn't stalk you -- you should recant -- he did stalk you but as an admin function". I do know Ken well enough to say, he reacts much better to sound reason, than straw man and ad hominem. Many discussions with Ken rely too heavily on these.--My76Strat (talk) 07:44, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

User:Mlillybaltimore

This user has been deleting genres from band and album articles a lot. The user, as seen on his/her talk page, has been blocked once in the recent past for this type of behavior. (S)he has since been given four warnings from two different users about the genre warring since that block, but has not stopped regardless. He or she removes genres due to an alleged lack of reliable sourcing, and has performed edits involving a removal of the allmusic citation. Affected pages include The King of Limbs (history), Clinic (band) and respective album pages (such as Visitations (Clinic album) and Winchester Cathedral (album)), Gorillaz (history) and Gorillaz (album) (history), Radiohead (history). It's one thing to occassionally remove genres due to being unsourced, but I feel that this is a case of WP:POINT. I'm not going to attempt or care to go into a multi-page genre feud with this person, because there are already too many of those, generally speaking. Backtable ^{Speak to me}_{concerning my deeds.} 05:26, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

Trying to clean up Wikipedia pages to make sure that the inclusion of reliable, third party sources are included when it comes to describing the genre of a band or album is not a radical, or unreasonable endeavor. If User:Backtable has an issue with my removal of tenuous genre affiliations, he or she needs to simply cite a reliable third party source. It's that simpleMlillybaltimore (talk) 05:37, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

If content is unsourced, and if there's any doubt over it, then removing it is a Good Thing; this is supposed to be an encyclopædia rather than a collection of lots of factoids which each editor believes to be true. However, we don't need a source to say that the sky is blue. If there's any disagreement over whether or not specific sources justify particular claims of genre, then the reliable sources noticeboard might be a good place to ask.

Genres are a magnet for trouble anyway. If in doubt, leave it out. bobrayner (talk) 15:22, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

The sky is blue analogy is troublesome and not applicable when it comes to the genre of bands and albums. I'm trying to ensure some semblance of uniformity and verification. It's not that hard to determine what should be included based on the collective information found in reliable third party sources. If someone is insistent on calling Clinic for example, an alternative band, then there needs to be some sort of citation to that effect.Mlillybaltimore (talk) 21:54, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

I'm failing to see what the problem here is; the answer, to my mind, is quite simple. Music articles should, I should imagine, be categorised on genre based on what WP:RS references say about the bands, not about what editors think the genres should be classed as (which would surely be WP:OR). If the genre is not universally applied to the artist and is something localised only to the Wikipedia coverage of the subject, there's clearly something wrong. If the genre is widely applied to the artist in reliable source references to the artist, it seems obvious that it should be stated. Am I missing something wider here? --Tristessa (talk) 23:47, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

So why this change from one genre to two new ones - without citing a source? Radiopathy •talk• 04:00, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

It's about trying to maintain uniformity across the band's main page and the specific album's page. A page for an individual song should hew closely to the album's main page. As I said, if you want to include a tenuous genre tag (like alternative rock to anything related to Radiohead in the post Kid-A era), then just cite a source.Mlillybaltimore (talk) 04:25, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

MangoWong & poor policy interpretation: can someone have a word, please

See this from MangoWong. I am becoming fed up of having to counter the often snide comments of this user but this particular one is a recent example of their unwillingness to accept what I believe to be a correct interpretation of policy. There is similar stuff scattered all over Talk:Yadav and other caste articles in which they have had an involvement, and even in forum discussions such as this one. I feel that there is a need for some uninvolved admins to provide some input on what is or is not policy. Thanks. - Sitush (talk) 07:22, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

Diff of where MangoWong argues the toss about what DougWeller said at AN3. - Sitush (talk) 07:27, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

And recent advice regarding continually bringing up these types of issue and instigating inappropriate "teaching". MW is clearly stalking my edits, given the number of WikiLove messages that they post to users whom I have become involved with, but that is merely an irritation - I can live with it. - Sitush (talk) 07:35, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

If I might make a suggestion: I don't really think you're dealing with the user particularly well on your part, either. I read from his messages that he's having difficulty understanding WP:NPOV and WP:RS, but at the same time it appears nobody's really bothered to explain in an uninvolved fashion that these are non-negotiable Wikipedia policies and that he must follow them. I'd say that in the absence of any evidence to the contrary the user seems to be trying to make his efforts in good faith, however misguided, and it might be worth stop seeing the user's lack of policy understanding as "snide" comments. If after explanation he continues to fail to get the picture, then it is possible a WP:TBAN might be appropriate. But, how about trying the WP:AGF route first. --Tristessa (talk) 23:41, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

I understand your concerns about my attitude. The problem is not really that but rather the fact that this type of issue has spread across so many articles and tends to be driven by the named contributor. The consequence of this is that there is a substantial back-story and potentially a list of diffs as long as my arm. It has reached the point where I am struggling to nail things down both in terms of examples and in terms of policy interpretation. I am aware that my initial comments here are somewhat vague: this is borne of frustration and that is indubitably my fault because the last thing that I should do is become frustrated with another editor. My request here was for intervention regarding the specific policy issue precisely because it is so difficult to nauil MangoWong down to any particular definitive statement: the pedantry, lawyering and refusal ultimately to "see things through" is extremely disruptive, in my opinion. But it is a frustration shared by others. I'll sleep on it and see if I can better define the issue, a part of which is the repetitive nature of the general policy disputes across multiple articles and the certainty on the part of MangoWong that they are correct despite umpteen others trying to explain that they are not. - Sitush (talk) 00:21, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

I've had pretty similar problems with MW, as like Sitush I've been involved in the current cleanup of Indian caste articles, which were nearly uniformly in terrible condition, uncited "my caste is severely awesome" propaganda pieces. We've gotten a lot of blowback of "how dare your cited scholarly sources debase my caste's awesomeness!", which is not surprising, but MangoWong has had a very irritating habit of lurking in the background, constantly butting in to encourage inexperienced editors to engage in bad behaviours: ANI-ing Sitush and I for removing uncited material, insisting that citations for the lede don't apply to the infobox and thus material can be removed, making extremely vague statements about articles being "terrible" and then refusing to either improve them or go to dispute resolution, etc. Further, on a disturbingly frequent basis, whenever a "new editor" or IP turns out to be a sock of one of WP:India's many "caste warriors", MangoWong has frequently been their moral supporter throughout the Talk page. As Sitush says, it's tricky because the list of diff's is indeed arm-long, and it's a tremendously long pattern of simply encouraging bad behavior, dragging up endless allegations of mis-editing and refusing to fix, DR, or often even to narrow down what his complaints are. Further, he's made many blatantly incorrect statements both about WP policy and about Indian history, and no matter how many times he is contradicted by other, or how many times his only supporters are sock-puppets, he persists. Sitush, let me know if you need help assembling diffs, particularly of his literally trying to get IPs to edit war on his behalf to keep his hands clean; rather "hey buddy, you're new here, don't let these biased Westerners push you around! Go get 'em man!" MatthewVanitas (talk) 04:21, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

As an aside, MW is clearly a bright person, so I'm not trying to label him a vandal nor am I trying to get him banned or TBed. He just has some sort of huge concern with how Sitush and I are handling caste articles, and simply refuses to actually address the issue, while continuing to get other rifled up about it. MatthewVanitas (talk) 04:25, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

I had an accident recently and things have taken a slight turn for the worse over the last couple of days, which is making things a little awkward for me. My problem, I know. But MatthewVanitas or anyone else, feel free to stick some diffs in here while I try to sort things out. This is a very complex situation but the obvious immediate examples are evident at Talk:Lodhi and Talk:Yadav, where MangoWong has been arguing the toss about generic policy issues but refusing to provide examples of their point at a localised, article level. Indeed, in both cases, they have mentioned the point that they will reveal more (?) if others turn up to support them. It is a disingenuous and semantic tactic that sometimes seems to have bordered on "rabble rousing" & there have been numerous requests for clarification from MW that have been met with a pretty much stonewalled response. It has been suggested that the wider policy issues be raised in a more appropriate forum (the Pump might be one) but these have not been taken up. And when the issues are raised here or at RSN or at DRN, AN3 or, indeed, wherever ... well. MW always appears to contest the numerous and varied opinions of long-term contributors and continues to restate various non-consensual interpretations of WP:CITE, WP:OR, WP:DUE etc on individual article talk pages. Far too many new-ish contributors (as well as clear socks and meats, although not of MW his/herself) appear to have been drawn into untenable positions as a consequence. This is a net loss to the project. I know that there are issues here and I do feel that they need addressing if only because this sort of semantic disruption is actually consuming a vast amount of the time available to genuinely constructive editors but, sorry, I am on Tramadol again and need a little time unless someone else can help me out. Like MatthewVanitas, I do not think that MangoWong is ill-intentioned, merely misguided ... and unfortunately dragging other people down that misguided path. - Sitush (talk) 23:54, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

Andering J. REDDSON

Andering J. REDDSON (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · blacklist hits · AbuseLog · what links to user page · count · COIBot · Spamcheck · user page logs · x-wiki · status · Edit filter search · Google · StopForumSpam)

I have exhibited patience when corresponding with this one but he seems intent upon being uncivil. In March, I responded on Talk:Non-lethal weapon to Reddson's concerns. He placed a POV tag 1 and in June, with no dialog occurring on the talk page, I removed it as stale...2. He was apparently disgruntled and filed a MedCab case in which he wrongly named me as having reverted him in a content dispute. He did not prevail against others in the dispute.

More recently, he started a dialog on the Mythbusters page. He accused me of stalking his edits although I have been editing that article well before his arrival and AFAIK we have not met at any other article. Rather oddly, I agreed with him and tried to assist in his requests but was met with hostility which I have ignored. He accused me of attacking him in that thread although I don't see it...so I backed away and let others handle it.

I frequently help out at User talk:Misza13's page concerning archiving and try to setup archiving where appropriate. When I noticed Reddson wasn't signing his posts with a datestamp, I politely requested that he do so. He responded with this; I do not feel that I have given him cause for the incivility which I have been receiving and feel that admin help is needed at this point.
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► 07:36, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

I have removed the comment and left a level 2 warning for the attack.
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► 20:41, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

While I can imagine you may have been unhappy waiting for admin action Berean, I think it was unwise to remove Andering J. REDDSON's comment on his own talk page. If he had left it on your own talk page of course I'd have agreed it was perfectly reasonable of you to do so. He has indeed been unnecessarily stubborn about not signing pages, and his remark was childish. But if you can't be childish on your own talk pages.... Just leave him alone, he seems to be getting on OK with other people and editing well enough. If he escalates his incivility others will take action. Kim Dent-Brown ^(Talk) 21:39, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

“If he had left it on your own talk page of course I'd have agreed it was perfectly reasonable of you to do so.” If I had done that, I submit I should have been banned. Right then and there. “He has indeed been unnecessarily stubborn…” This is true; I am stubborn. A. J. REDDSON

These allegations are lies, except that I replied “Go away you little troll” to his attack against me at my own talk page.
Further; Berean Hunter has chosen, any time he sees my name, to insist on commenting. On the NLW page, I objected to the inclusion of Batons and caltrops on the page ass they are NOT considered “non-lethal” and to the neutrality of Amnesty International on the same page. He has been consistently obstructionist to defend a faulty position; He changed the standards when I started asking questions on another page (it was a question, not even fully formed position). He has also in fairly technical terms called me a liar (“it doesn’t say what you think it says”). I tried being civil; It got me told off.
Eventually his “I’m right, you’re wrong, shut up” attitude led me to file a mediation request; His reply was that there was no right to complain. After he was told the source was biased (but got some of it back), this campaign of harassment began, including coming to my talk page to start another fight.
Furthermore, I believe this is retaliation for his partial defeat on the NLW/AI neutrality issue and to ensure I will not be able to take the NLW/Caltrops-Batons issue up, and to ensure the MythBusters issue is never brought up.
¿Has he been uncivil to me? YES. ¿Am I going to ask an apology? Not worth the effort. A. J. REDDSON

Seems to me we have someone who isn't here to build an encyclopedia. [29] N419BH 00:59, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

I’m sorry this is my introduction to you, but you’re only seeing half the story. Try to reserve judgment until you have the facts, rather than the spin. I want factually correct information, that is true; I also dislike people hiding agenda behind “facts” that are pointedly in dispute. A. J. REDDSON

I have never attacked Reddson and challenge him to present diffs where I have. Where have you been "told off"? Please do not try to put words into my mouth. I'm not the one lying. There is so little truth in what you speak that it is laughable. No one has changed any standards on you and others at Talk:Mythbusters have told you so but you seem to not hear to suit your convenience. I welcome other editors and admins to look into this situation to see which one is telling the truth. I have presented diffs above but Reddson has presented nothing but gross distortions of reality.
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► 04:21, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

[simply, that I don’t know what I’m talking about after I quoted the CPC section applicable.]
[is incorrect process here.] The quote pretty much speaks for itself.
As to “shifting standards”: He stood by his position that ONE biased primary source was sufficient for Non-Lethal Weaps “Allegations of Torture” section (specifically the much repeated AI section), but decided that THREE sources for controversy on the MythBusters standards of measure were insufficient to even start a dialog about how to address the controversy; One of those sources was the MythBusters themselves admitting that there were issues to be addressed. (If Albert EINSTEIN had called E=mc² garbage, then no one would ever have questioned it.) This before even I’d stated a position on it. A. J. REDDSON

I take note that Reddson has made another attack.
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► 04:46, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

I “take note” that this whole thing is harassment against me and a fraud against senior members intended to draw your attention away from the fact that elsewhere on that same page I’ve already presented the case that he’s “made factual errors” elsewhere on the NLW page; He’s afraid if I take that to mediation (a possibility) then he’ll lose. Period. Furthermore, I am considering asking Administrators to review all of Berean–Hunter’s activities over time. A. J. REDDSON

You are patently wrong. You have refused to understand what others have said to you. On the Mythbusters page, someone else correctly asked you for multiple sources to back up your assertions about controversy. You came back with a school newspaper and a private website instead of published sources. Multiple people keep telling you the same thing. That is simple. We don't craft our writing in a contentious matter to fit our own viewpoints and we certainly don't add material surrounding controversy without references from reliable sources. I see that you have been doing precisely that on Non-lethal weapon. It is unacceptable for you to add material with several ''citation needed'' tags. You are just writing what you feel ought to be there with a notion that someone else can do your legwork and find sources to back you up (if they exist). Stating that the process at MedCab was wrong was correct. You went straight for dispute resolution rather than inquire at the Reliable sources noticeboard as to whether the Amnesty International source was acceptable. Nothing about that is an attack...it does speak for itself.

You have yet to present any diffs where I have done something wrong and certainly nothing to warrant your egregious behavior. What I see is loads of faulty logic reasoning.
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► 12:00, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

At this point my position can not be any LESS clear, and with that I leave the matter to an impartial Admin to address. A. J. REDDSON

You got that right. Your position could not be LESS clear. (lmao) Well, at least we agree on something.

(Note to admins) Reddson has now filed a bad faith 3RR report on me.
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► 00:17, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

User talk:ChristianandJericho‎

User talk:ChristianandJericho‎ seems to be making a lot of CSD/AFD errors as well as leaving a few inappropriate warnings, for instance a 3RR warning on Future Perfect's talk page. After CSD rejections and other warnings the user wipes their talk page. I don't think the user is acting in bad faith, but could an admin take a look at the contrib history and determine if any action or a warning is needed? Thanks. N^oformation ^Talk 09:23, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

They identify themselves as 13 on their user page, so perhaps maturity is a factor here. They also note their membership in WP:WikiProject Pornography, where age is no barrier to participation, apparently. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 12:22, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

I'm inclined to believe neither of these statements - particularly the second, as he never appears to have edited in this area. I have left a warning [30] - if he makes another stupid nomination, I would think another block would be in order, and given his previous three, I'm thinking a block of several weeks. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 13:03, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

I am not sure how one can refute this, editing aside. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 14:28, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

Block him, he's disrupted many articles, including my own. ♦ Dr. Blofeld 13:48, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

Not trying to be disruptive, but I was never warned by an admin, also most of my CSDs were confirmed and deleted so fine I'll read the WP:Deletion thing before I nominate an article for deletion --ChristianandJericho 13:49, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

You've been blocked three times, now you come back to disrupt again? Indefinite block is needed here. Colofac (talk) 14:14, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

I have made over 700 contrustive edits to wikipedia, I believe what I did was right and I can join the WP:Porn is I want to, there is no age limit --ChristianandJericho 14:31, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

You are the perfect example of why there needs to be a minimum age limit for joining Wikipedia. It's quite obvious that this website exceeds your maturity levels. If you think being a member of a porn project is the reason why this debate is taking place, you only serve to further validate my opinions. Colofac (talk) 14:37, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

Yes, despite the fact that in some jurisdictions it would be illegal for someone to sell you (or possibly even just show you) porn, there is no restriction on a 13 year-old editor joining Wikiproject Pornography. Sorry if you thought my criticism was directed at you. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 14:43, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

Speaking as a non-admin, I'd say that if someone (a) claims to be 13 years old, and (b) declares that they want to be part of the porn project, this is sufficient grounds to block, simply for bringing discredit to Wikipedia. If ChristianandJericho can't see that, he lacks the maturity necessary to be a useful contributor. AndyTheGrump (talk) 14:50, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

There is an edit war about the redaction of the comment above by Delicious carbuncle. The comment is so disturbing that I insist it stays redacted until the matter has been resolved. Hans Adler 15:44, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

Please leave it redacted. It has obviously been taken in a different light than intended. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 15:59, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

Your comment was clearly sarcastic, but one needs to know you to see this. Sorry for bothering you. Hans Adler 16:45, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

ChristianandJericho, you should probably stop nominating anything for deletion, except perhaps in the most obvious cases, until you get some more experience. You should refrain from making statements, such as that you are active on a pornography project, while simultaneously listing your age; this creates the impression, rightly or wrongly, that you are seeking to provoke people or get attention rather than seriously edit. I also hope you will not be offended if I suggest that a reading of Wikipedia:Guidance for younger editors, in either the original form I wrote it or its current incarnation, might be useful to you.

Delicious carbuncle, some of your comments above are not helpful. Newyorkbrad (talk) 14:49, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

I move that the user be indefinitely banned, it's obvious he isn't here to contribute within the rules, and given his previous history (No less than 5 blocks), it would be foolish to AGF as he will just throw it back in our faces. Colofac (talk) 14:57, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict)I can't say I agree with a minimum age restriction, since I've seen some users claiming to be middle and high school students, who are actually studying research techniques and grammar for a grade, handle that stuff better than some users who provided evidence they were university professors. In fact, based on my personal subjective experiances, the good university professors tend to be exceptions (the bad ones get banned for incivility over their WP:OR not being accepted, and the good ones realize their degree means nothing here). However, Wikipedia's servers are located in Florida, so their laws do kinda apply here. There means there probably should be a policy of "no kids allowed" on the porn wikiproject. Ian.thomson (talk) 14:56, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

Ian, I agree that your suggestion of an age restriction on WikiProject Pornography (and possibly other WikiProjects) seems like an obvious and common sense move. I hope that a proposal of that action results from this discussion. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 16:03, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

Hmmm, that would mean that every editor would have to send a copy of their passport to the WikiMedia foundation to verify that they are old enough. Count Iblis (talk) 16:00, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

Not necessarily. There are a lot of websites that accept a representation from the user as to the user's age. Of course, this is a legal issue and should probably be evaluated by Wikipedia/Wikimedia's lawyers. As an aside, I'm not sure that the pornogrpahy project should be the ones deciding.--Bbb23 (talk) 16:14, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

I have not made any edits in WP:Porn because I have been busy, but the subject of pornography interests me (SUBJECT not content) --ChristianandJericho 16:07, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

Heh, I bet a lot of 13-year-olds could say the same thing.--Bbb23 (talk) 16:15, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

I do not wipe out my talk page, I archive it about 1-7 days --ChristianandJericho 16:12, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

Of course it interests you, you're 13.--v/r - TP 16:15, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

Do you giggle when you see the boobies? I bet you do. Colofac (talk) 16:22, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

ChristianandJericho, your interest in the subject pornography is entirely valid (despite the snide comments above). I have already been chastised for trying to make this point in a more subtle way, but let me spell it out - many of our article about pornography also contain pornography. While it may seem to be obvious what a "fluffer" does by simply reading, even this article contains an image which many people would say is not suitable for under-age editors due to the unexpected appearance of a penis. I hope you understand why people may be concerned about your self-professed interest in pornography topics. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 16:25, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

Age verification would be impractical, but we could at least hold ourselves to at least the standards 4chan manages and ban people who admit they're under 18. Ian.thomson (talk) 16:23, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

There is no age limit (or maybe it's 13+) for wikipedia, okay here's the deal

1. I stop tagging articles for deletion without a good reason. 2. I will contribute more to WP:Porn (you don't really care) --ChristianandJericho 16:31, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

The only deal I will accept is your indef blocking. You have 5 previous blocks, the last of which should have resulted in an indefinite anyway - quite how you got around that is amazing. Colofac (talk) 16:36, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

On what grounds do you think he should be indefinitely blocked? Also, what do you mean "deal"? This isn't a negotiation. I find it interesting that you've been here for a few weeks but are already calling for several members to be banned on flimsy premises. See WP:BLOCK and WP:BAN for reasons we actually do block. either way (talk) 16:49, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

Well it's not up to you is it? --ChristianandJericho 16:38, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

Although Wikipedia as a whole has no age restrictions, Wikipedia's servers are located in the U.S. and so U.S. laws do apply here. U.S. law says "don't give kids porn." Wikipedia could get into serious trouble (social and legal) for allowing you be a part of the Porn WikiProject since you have admitted you are underage. Right now the debated options are:

A) You do not contribute to the Porn WikiProject

B) You do not contribute to the entire encyclopedia

Ian.thomson (talk) 16:42, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

From a non admin perspective unless an age limit is set which it hasn't been for that project he hasnt done anything wrong there up to now. An age limit should be set and he shouldn't be allowed to edit within that area again until he is older. In terms of nominations for deletion more care is needed there and he should be discouraged until he is more competent. To me a ban as such isnt needed unless he chosses to ignore which he might. Warburton1368 (talk) 16:54, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

Speaking as a lawyer it is sensible, given draconian punishments, to run screaming away from anything involving kids and anything sexual. That being said, it isn't obvious to me he's breaking the rules. And he hasn't edited there, he has just declared himself part of that wikiproject. I would remind C and J that discretion is the better part of valor and he may be well advised to remove his claimed age from his user page and otherwise lie low for a bit.--Wehwalt (talk) 17:01, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

Would that "U.S. law", whatever that is, were so simple as don't give "kids" (whoever they are) porn. The law at the federal and state levels on issues of sexually explicit materials and minors (who are defined differently by different laws) is far more complex than that.--Bbb23 (talk) 17:04, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

Why do I think he should be indefinitely blocked? Well as User:Ian.thomson has pointed out, his exposure to such material is illegal, add onto this his repeated abuse, bans block log here and use of sockpuppets. Colofac (talk) 17:06, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

What "material" is illegal to expose him to? The same material that anyone can look at on Wikipedia? Some hidden material? What law? And why should we "enforce" a non-existent age limit against him in particular, just because he chooses to admit his age? If he deserves a block, it's for other behavior but not about this.--Bbb23 (talk) 17:15, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

If anyone bothers to look at what I've posted, I've never actually advocated that he be blocked for claiming to be part of the Porn WikiProject. I said that there should be bans for anyone claiming to be underage. Bans are different, he would still be allowed to edit everywhere else. While anyone can go and look at any part of the encyclopedia, that's the parents'/guardians'/schools' problem. But by coming here and claiming to both underage and part of WP:Porn, we're open to at least a media campaign of "Wikipedia endorses minors working in Wikipedia porn!" All states define 13 as a minor. Ian.thomson (talk) 17:25, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

(This comment has been 'moved up the thread out of order at the request [31] of 28bytes)The original complainant states there is no bad faith editing on this users part so take the opportunity to analyse this users behavior to make better guides for AFD's. When a good faith editor is making errors, it's because the Docs and guidelines are misleading. Hijacking the discussion into age, age+porn, and america is the whole world is unhelpful, and that discussion goes elsewhere. ChristianandJericho has no reason or obligation to disclose his jurisdiction this suggests to me he may live in a tribal place where he could already be married for example. Or if he lives in Texas, Mexico, Canada, or new hampshire he may have to wait till he is 14. There are also many places where 50 year olds are jailed for reading or possession of porn. So this editor may be acting in a perfectly legal, logical and normal manner as he is entitled to do depending where he lives. Application of Wikipedias Current community guidelines is appropriate. ANI is no place to change the rules, or apply personal ones. Penyulap _talk 05:26, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

I think you should stay clear of stating legal principles ("All states define 13 as a minor"). Maybe you'd care to provide 50 sources for your statement.--Bbb23 (talk) 17:50, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

I contribute to wikipedia as I have been given rollback rights for being a "trusted user" --ChristianandJericho 17:29, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

Secondly, I was just starting to edit at the time of "sockpuppets" so and I only used on IP and one account and many users post their age on Wikipedia --ChristianandJericho 17:32, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

We are not CandJ's parents or teachers. It is not our job to prevent him from what he chooses to do, and it is not illegal for a minor to join a porn wikiproject. I don't think he can be blocked or topic banned for being too young to edit in the area. We are the encyclopedia anyone can edit, you know. If we are to put an asterisk on that, I think it takes a broader discussion.--Wehwalt (talk) 17:39, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

I absolutely agree. The porn project is a distraction from this discussion.--Bbb23 (talk) 17:51, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

I became aware of this editor in June when they were a disruptive IP inserting BLP violations into articles. If I recall correctly the ChristianandJericho account was created to evade the block the IP had earned for edit-warring over one of those fake "you have new messages" boxes on their talk page. In my opinion this editor has improved since those days, but would still benefit greatly from a mentor, as they still have a ways to go in the competence and policy knowledge departments. Aside from completely missing the point in this thread (no, people aren't wanting you to get more involved in porn articles) there are head-scratchers like giving a final warning to an editor for having external links on their user page. Anyone willing to mentor this editor? This editor willing to accept a mentor? 28bytes (talk) 17:54, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

Not me, but he says on his user page he is willing to be adopted.--Bbb23 (talk) 18:07, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

We are not lawyers, it is pointless and off-topic to speculate on such matters. 28bytes (talk) 19:07, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
(edit conflict)Wehwalt, does federal law not say that pornographic materials are not to be knowingly distributed to people under the age of 18? If it isn't, pretty much everyone outside of the legal system is fairly convinced it is. I fully acknowledge that we can ignore minor users who view or edit porn related articles. I said bans for people claiming to be under 18. I have never said we should do anything about people either claiming to be 18 or working on porn articles, but not both. If we know that he is under 18, and we know that his work is directed at the porn articles, we are knowingly providing an underage person access to pornographic materials. While individual users are not going to get in trouble directly, the site being in trouble does cause trouble for those who like to read and edit Wikipedia. If I am mistaken about the federal law, you still cannot pretend that this does not at least give the media a chance to get into a moralistic shitstorm. I am not saying he should be punished or retroactively punished. I would prefer that people quit associating me with that position. I am not saying he should not be allowed to edit the encyclopedia, just that we would be safer if we did not allow users to both claim to be underage and edit porn articles. We already place restrictions on who can edit what articles, which is why "anyone can edit" has been dropped from the logo. To draw an offline comparison: a bookstore which has porn can hire underage workers. If the underage workers look at porn on their own, the bookstore can claim they didn't know. If the underage worker volunteer to organize the porn section, wouldn't the bookstore open itself to being charged with knowingly distributing porn to a minor? Ian.thomson (talk) 18:04, 17 September 2011 (UTC) Addendum: I personally don't care if C&J works on porn related articles. He just needs to log out before doing so to cover Wikipedia's ass, so that Wikipedia's legal representatives can claim we didn't know he was underage. Ian.thomson (talk) 18:20, 17 September 2011 (UTC) But then Wikipedia isn't in the business of distributing porn. An article about porn isn't porn. Count Iblis (talk) 18:22, 17 September 2011 (UTC) A number of articles contain images that can only be described as pornographic (and are only encyclopedic in context). Are you really willing to risk letting a judge figure out the difference between distributing porn for business purposes and distributing porn for encyclopedic purposes? A judge in a country where many states still have anti-sodomy laws and gay people aren't allowed to marry? Ian.thomson (talk) 18:33, 17 September 2011 (UTC) You really need to abandon your entree into the legal arena. So many of your statements are legally incorrect, and some of them are wildly incorrect. Your proposal about covering Wikipedia's ass (above) is particularly alarming.--Bbb23 (talk) 19:02, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

Agreed. Leave the legal argument to the WMF. Ian.thomson can email them if he is that concerned. Elen of the Roads (talk) 19:12, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

I also have no comment on the Porn project membership, and agree that it should be up to WMF. However, to return to the original issue, this user's deletion tagging is extremely problematic. I've had to decline several speedy deletions; in and of itself that's not terrible, but the fact that xe rarely responds to those concerns is. And, to clarify, the user doesn't "archive once a week"--it's actually about once every 2 days. Then, yesterday, it turns out that the user has switched over to making spurious AfD nominations (see this complaint on xyr talk page). So, I think it's time that this user take a mandatory break from deletion tagging of any type. If some user is willing to mentor ChristianandJericho on this issue, that might help, but for now the disruption needs to stop. Qwyrxian (talk) 00:30, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

Agreed. I would like confirmation from ChristianandJericho at this point that he will not make any more deletion nominations without the agreement of his mentor, should he find one, and no deletion nominations whatsoever should he not find a mentor. Absent that confirmation I would be open to supporting a topic ban and/or competence block. 28bytes (talk) 00:44, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

A complete block for a good faith editor is destructive to the wikipedia project. Better docs, or a civil word is called for. Or make the CFD process a little more complex for newbies to access. Penyulap _talk 05:44, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

Noformation, your complaint can't really go anywhere, as it would need you to point out where ChristianandJericho has broken the rules, it REALLY helps a lot if you put up diffs (links to the exact place he did something wrong) it also helps if you can suggest a solution, although that is not needed. ChristianandJericho as you have said is not doing anything bad on purpose, just making mistakes. That's allowed. Is there anything you know of where he has done something wrong, plus been warned about it by an admin, and ignored the warning from the admin, and kept going ? Penyulap _talk 06:10, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

I didn't really have a complaint, I was just concerned about the large number of mistakes the user was making. I wasn't looking for my "complaint" to "go anywhere" except under the eyes of an admin who could decide whether the user needed something like mentoring. Since the "complaint" is general, I didn't provide diffs as a cursory look at the talk page explains it clearly. With that said, I'll keep your comments in mind if I ever decide to persecute a newbie. N^oformation ^Talk 12:43, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

ChristianandJericho has made simple newbie mistakes and has made an apology here showing respect for a more experienced editor. We need more editors like ChristianandJericho time to close this one or what ! Penyulap _talk 06:19, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

Just tagged another article for speedy deletion BUT for a good reason as the user was attacking admins and using profanic words --ChristianandJericho 09:07, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

No, you tagged a talkpage. Colofac (talk) 09:50, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

No, I tagged two articles a talk page, and a vandalism page, which got deleted --ChristianandJericho 09:53, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

User just tried to report me on wp:AIV. Is this kid for real or is he really this thick? Colofac (talk) 10:57, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

Considering your edit-warring on his talk page, I think an interaction ban between the two of you might be a good idea. Find something more useful to do with your time. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 11:13, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

The user is Wikistalking me, I feel that it is hard to edit when he is constantly trailing me. Colofac (talk) 11:15, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

Whatever your problems (and the problems) with ChristianandJericho, edit warring to preserve the barnstar speaks for itself. I presume you weren't aware of WP:OWNTALK and the rights of user to remove nearly everything from their talk page at their absolute discretion until it was pointed out to you. Even so, while I can understand why people may mistakenly feel the need to preserve warnings and similar messages, trying to preserve a barnstar which is supposed to be a sort of honour (even if it was seemingly misused here) makes no sense. Nil Einne (talk) 14:57, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

This user keeps adding random barnstars to my talk page, also he is spamming my talk page and removing AIV reports, also user is Attack me (check talk page history) --ChristianandJericho 11:17, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

"Do you giggle when you see the boobies? I bet you do." At 13? He's not 8. Most 13 or 14 year olds on average have (illegally) viewed hardcore pornography and seen most if not all of the entire works in lurid detail. Usually some old dirty 70s or 80s videos of one of your friends' parents with a sound track like this LOL, or a thieved Mayfair or Penthouse with some ageing tart on the cover nicked by the paper boy and sold to you. C'mon he's 13, the hormones are off the scale, and remember what it was like to be his age. Beats me though why he would want to contribute here when he could be scouring the internet for naughty sites and images. Or has his parents blocked em all LOL. But to be honest I think there should be an 18 requirement for joining WP:Porn as it seems illegal LOL. But if he's stupid enough to declare his age...♦ Dr. Blofeld 14:55, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

If you're going to set an age requirement, fine, but don't mock me our call me stupid --ChristianandJericho 15:16, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

No need to get defensive, I was actually defending what it is like to be a 13 year old (before you were born) and treating what you are likely knowledgeable about with some humor I thought. But anything with pornography and age 13 in close proximity is going to attract a mass of unwanted attention and send out alarm bells. This discussion is more about that than you invalidly tagging articles for the chop. I know being 13 you feel a lot older amd more mature than it seems to us but from our perspective it is a very bad look to have declared 13 year old contributing to articles about hardcore pornography. A friendly word of advice would be to drop your user page tags and messages with attitude and get on with writing articles about wrestlers and stuff and try to keep a low profile. Why not try to get some collaborators and try to promote some articles like the legendary Hulk Hogan to WP:GA? Feel free to ask me if you want any help on anything. ♦ Dr. Blofeld 15:23, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

Admin comment: This ANI has been raised about concerns of inappropriate CSD tagging and/or other aspects of page patrolling. The only seriously disruptive behaviour by ChristianandJericho appears to be the immature approach to a process as fundamentally important as NPP. I suggest a topic ban from patrolling new pages until this editor has made 2,000 good manual edits to mainspace. Any involvement as a minor with page related to pornography should probably be the subject of a separate discussion. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 18:40, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

I'd be happy to mentor the user, if that's satisfactory to everyone. Swarm ^{u / t} 18:45, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

I think Kudpung is right. A lot of the comments here have been most unconstructive, and totally unfair to ChristianandJericho. I support the proposal for a topic ban. If ChristianandJericho would like to accept Swarm's offer of mentoring then that should be a helpful step forward. JamesBWatson (talk) 20:17, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

repeat vandalism

Resolved

 – page protected by User:JaGa

Some unknown ips are doing repeat vandalism on Vellalar page since several weeks.Rajkris (talk) 16:01, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

Future requests should be made at WP:RPP. It is generally faster there. Thanks, →Στc. 20:40, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

I wouldn't say that's the case now recently. For some reason, it takes a much longer time to get an answer for page protection now. It can sometimes take over 24 hours now in order to get an answer for a request.OpenInfoForAll (talk) 04:55, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

Poll: Should Equestria Daily be fully considered as a legitmate source?

Resolved

 – Essay/poll deleted.--Bbb23 (talk) 02:01, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

I'd like to take a moment and ask you to look at this poll concerning the use of Equestria Daily as a legitmate source.

Thanks, Rainbow Dash !xmcuvg2MH 00:47, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

You not only created that "essay", but you're also asking others to look at it? Is it April Fool's Day? Am I missing something?--Bbb23 (talk) 00:59, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

Probable need to remove Administrator rights

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

Bureaucrats have been notified. 28bytes (talk) 01:49, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

---

User bahamut0013, an administrator here in Wikipedia died last night and although its unlikely that we need to worry about anyone accessing his account we should probably revoke his Administrator rights just in case. --Kumioko (talk) 01:14, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

This should be posted at WP:BN so that the bureaucrats can take care of it. --Rschen7754 01:22, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

I gotta say, even if I have never met bahamut0013, that this thread, both the heading and the comments are terribly cold. The dude died, show some humanity! :/--Cerejota (talk) 01:34, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

I don't see the lack of humanity. It's customary to salute a deceased U.S. Marine with the motto "Semper Fi". –MuZemike 01:45, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Deceased Wikipedians/Guidelines is the official guideline. We desysop as a procedure for account security, but we don't indefinitely block unless the account is compromised. --Rschen7754 01:49, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

I actually did know him so I apologize if offense was taken, none was intended. I was simply trying to notify the Administrators of the event so that the procedures could be followed. --Kumioko (talk) 01:59, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Move help needed

I did noob mistake when closing Talk:Kefallinia_Prefecture#Requested_move and forgot to check if I could move over redirect. I can't. Please someone with Mop mop it up. Thanks!--Cerejota (talk) 05:22, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

Pretty bold call for a non-admin to make, but it has been sitting at the bottom of the backlog for weeks now. Anyway, if you don't get any joy here you can tag the redirect with {{db-g6}}. Jenks24 (talk) 11:57, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

Yes, nothing bold in cleanup ;). Can someone move it please?--Cerejota (talk) 22:06, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

 Done. As Jenks24 says, in the future you can expedite the process by adding Template:Db-move to the target page and specifying which page should be moved there; the CSD patrollers will see that and take care of the move for you. 28bytes (talk) 22:47, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

I notice that after I moved it for you, you moved it again "Per WP:IAR and WP:BOLD" in contradiction to your own closing statement. Were you planning to do that when you started this AN/I thread? 28bytes (talk) 00:04, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

Massive splurge of recreation of deleted articles by user: WölffReik

WölffReik (talk · contribs) has recreated about 20 kickboxing results articles in a 24 hour period when they all have been recently deleted in AfDs. for example, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/K-1_Fighting_Network_KHAN_2006_in_Seoul I marked 2 for speedy delete but realized there's a whole heap. I believe wolffreik's behavior is disruptive as per WP:POINT. LibStar (talk) 07:58, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

I have just tagged another two, before seeing this here, he knows not to re-create, he has other G4 notices on his talk page. Mtking ^(edits) 09:02, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

Colofac (talk · contribs)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

We really don't need another separate section for this, it's already under discussion above. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 11:19, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

---

User keeps adding random barnstars to my talk page, also he is spamming my talk page and removing AIV reports, also user is Attack me (check talk page history) --ChristianandJericho 11:17, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I can't believe this. Why wont you just leave me alone? Why do you always have to pop up with more harassment. Someone ban him before I go to Arbcom because this is really taking the piss now. Colofac (talk) 11:22, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

How's this for an idea: avoid each other. That way, no one gets their knickers in a twist, and the admins don't have to use any of their admin tools. --Alan the Roving Ambassador (User:N5iln) (talk) 18:26, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

Flood of usernames with "NNU" and random numbers

As of late, there has been many, many new users joining the project, all using "NNU" in their usernames, all of which have attempted to add articles related to China. Is this a cause for concern? I ask as the edits all seem to be following one pattern .

Account creation logs of some of the users:

• NNU-11-22100506
• NNU-01-05100116
• NNU-10-24100112

Is this some sort of university project?

Colofac (talk) 12:12, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

This is an organized college project form Nanjing Normal University, China. There are hundreds of students involved: See these results China is very repressive regarding Wikipedia, These students are not without risk for their participation. I am confident the numbers are a way to reduce vulnerability. They are contributing content in good faith, and are not at all here to disrupt.--My76Strat (talk) 12:24, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

Surely there is some form of way to stop this. They are introducing many articles that are totally inappropriate for the English Language site. Colofac (talk) 12:33, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

I don't know that we would want to stop it. It's bad enough their own government is intent to stop them. They are each an individual editor, participating of what free will they have. We should treat each account on its merits, and guide them to productive contributions. I have sampled some of the articles I see them writing, and so far I haven't seen an egregious thing.--My76Strat (talk) 12:42, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

I'm just concerned that they will try and push their vile propaganda through the site. Colofac (talk) 12:47, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

Vile? Jiangdu middle school ? Xu yuanchong? Not seeing any propaganda so far. But since the price of freedom is eternal vigilance, stay sharp and stay frosty, soldier. --Lexein (talk) 12:58, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

It's just endless streams of articles about unknown Chinese people, obscure cultural items, non-notable shops etc. Colofac (talk) 13:25, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

Do we know who is in charge? They should be pointed to WP:SUP. It is discouraging for the students, as well as disruptive for the rest of us, if they are just told to make articles without being properly briefed. There is an Indian project running which has produced a number of problems with copyvios and NN snippet articles. JohnCD (talk) 13:45, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

Bearing in mind wikipedia's current problems with systemic bias, any assumption that foreign editors are, by default, going to push "vile propaganda" should be kept well away from places like NPP or other forms of patrolling. I don't think that attitude would do much harm to article content initially (as AfDs and tags &c tend to get seen by other editors who may counter prejudiced actions), but valuable new editors are more likely to get bitten, which isn't going to help wikipedia improve quality in the longer term.

• "removing unintended welcome. I'm not here to welcome." is a particularly worrying attitude;
• "Maybe he is famous in your closed society, but not in the free world he isn't" is a shockingly harsh thing to say to a newbie after wrongly trying to CSD their article;
• The notion that Women's clothes in ancient China "is not important enough to warrant an article of it's own" beggars belief.

Some of these new users have made good edits; some have not. Tarring them all with the same brush is a Bad Thing, as is deliberately biting them. Stop this now. bobrayner (talk) 13:50, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict)We do not know how this was organized. It is not part of the WP:AMBASSADOR program. I invited someone from WikiProject:China to consider if they can help.--My76Strat (talk) 13:55, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

• This is not a problem. The problem is xenophobic biting behavior from what should be welcoming colleagues. This is the sort of thing that should be welcomed because it is one little step on the way to make wikipedia less biased towards unknown and irrelevant American topics, like midwest highschools and NASCAR race drivers nobody in the rest of the world cares about. We do of course need to keep an eye on the contributions for language quality and sourcing, but frankly I am appalled at the way some people here are reacting. Having seen some of the harsher comments by colofac I am now stating frankly that if I see you engaging in similar conduct I will block you, to give you time to understand our policies on civilty and WP:BITE. That kind of conduct is unbecoming and damaging to the project. ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 14:00, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
  • What is worse is that for example Hong chen was tagged and deleted as speedy when it clearly was not a speedy candidate as the article asserted notability (finalist in TV competition). If that claim was correct and if the event in itself would be notable could be discussed at an AFD. Obiously sources would need to be supplied. BLPProd would have been the way to go. Chinese article? Shoot first appologize later. Agathoclea (talk) 14:20, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

Same problem with Yang Gensi. Notability was clearly and unequivocally asserted.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 14:27, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

Restored. T. Canens (talk) 14:32, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

These numbers are likely some sort of student ID, to make them easier to track for the staff of whatever course these students are taking. I can't really expand on what Maunus has said above. Anyone who's doing something like this should not be even near NPP, period. T. Canens (talk) 14:32, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

• Going back to an earlier comment: "It's just endless streams of articles about unknown … people, obscure cultural items, non-notable shops etc." That sounds like a typical day at Special:Contributions/newbies. :) Seriously, a lot of new editors experiment by creating a page about themselves, their teachers, local shops, etc. Standard operating procedure for those situations is to speedy delete them under CSD A7 and point the user toward the notability guidelines and writing about topics that are notable. We don't need to be more harsh on this subset of new users just because of geography. I'm not saying they should get a free pass, either, but given the circumstances, maybe we need to do a better job of explaining why the edits aren't appropriate. Anybody up to translate "Please remember that Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, and the community has set certain minimum guidelines of notability that the subjects of new articles must meet. Your article, unfortunately, did not meet that guideline. If you want to continue developing this article to meet the guidelines—or need it recovered as part of a class project—please reply to this message to request it be restored into your user space"? —C.Fred (talk) 14:27, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

You are completely right.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 14:33, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

Why not just allow the school project to proceed uninterrupted and when they've finished their articles to sort out the mess afterwards. Surely, the overall result is positive for Wikipedia. Some might enjoy contributing to Wikipedia and continue in their spare time. It seems silly to alienate them all on their very first contribution. It's a bit hypocritical to accuse the Chinese of censorship and then to censor them whilst they are editing their first articles as they are editing them. It really is not very polite. Who in the English-speaking world is going to be bothered with looking up articles beginning with NNU* anyway?  Nipsonanomhmata  ^(Talk) 14:34, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

It's not the articles which have names beginning with "NNU", it's the users. The articles are called things like "The ending of 10 years' love relationship" and "A TV play". We can't really leave buckets of articles like this around until the project ends (at some indefinite time in the future, having created an indefinite number of articles). However weird ranting about "vile propaganda", deleting welcome templates as "unintended" is unhelpful to say the least. I note that Colofac has been blocked. Tonywalton ^Talk 00:16, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

A different direction

Bearing in mind the pattern of usernames &c., there is surely somebody organising something at their end; perhaps their college tutor or whoever.

• Since they appear well-intentioned, I think some engagement would be very helpful, but we would need to figure out who to engage with.
• I would be happy to put in some hours of mentorship/ambassadorship or whatever, but I lack Chinese skills.
• Obviously, like many new editors, they are a bit lost in wikipedia's thicket of rules and guidelines; but if we can guide them through that I think they could make positive contributions in areas where en.wiki is currently quite weak.

How else can we turn something negative into something positive? bobrayner (talk) 14:36, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

Is there anyway to get a list of the articles they have contributed? Then it would be possible to cleanup and fact check them one by one.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 14:43, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

I have created a list of users here. Will add a list of articles shortly. Some of the usernames appear to include names as well as numbers, and they generally have earlier creation dates; these people might be tutors. bobrayner (talk) 15:03, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

Some also appear to be drafting articles in userspace; for instance User:NNU-01-05100122 or User talk:NNU-01-05100504 bobrayner (talk) 15:06, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

Comments from a resident of China

Comments what I have read above:

• The serial usernames are probably because the teacher issued number for the students to use. China is an ordered place. Simple as that.
• China is not very repressive regarding Wikipedia.
• They are here to be constructive. This is no insane conspiracy.
• There is no need to stop this, but guidance would be helpful.
• If they introduce inappropriate articles, treat them as you would others. They are acting in good faith, with constructive intentions, and not here to be disruptive.
• Their own government intending to stop them? Really?
• "Push vile propaganda"? Are you kidding? That is an absurd edit.
• Please don't bite them.
• I will post at their talks to offer assitance. Can someone dump a username list in one of my sandboxes? I have to do something else now, and it would be helpful. I will put something together ASAP.
• Please don't post edits for them from secure.wikipedia

Please be kind and welcoming and understanding. Many thanks to all. (By the way, I am a Canadian/(British) living in China for years and years. Remember these are Chinese students. They are good kids. ) Anna Frodesiak (talk) 14:45, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

I've dropped the names (in bulk) in your black sandbox. Thanks for doing this.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 14:58, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for doing that. Received and welcome message sent to each. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 16:49, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict)I am sorry if I misstated the editing atmosphere in China. Blocking of Wikipedia by the People's Republic of China and correspondence with a wiki friend who is in China right now have given me pause to assume the government is not favorable to their efforts. Perhaps I am wrong, and mostly it is irrelevant (I suppose). What is relevant is that each account is an individual contributor who desires to participate in good faith. We should support that idea as in keeping with core Wikipedia tenets.--My76Strat (talk) 15:03, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

The only thing the great firewall software does is cut your connection to the site if you try to access sensitive articles, and often cuts it for no reason for 30 seconds because of triggering some sort of keyword it doesn't like. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 16:49, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

Thank you Anna, and I agree with you guys. We should be as kind and welcoming as possible. For what it's worth I've had a rather mixed experience with a class project from Union University in Jackson, Tennessee, which hits us every year in late November/early December, as a flood of users named "S + six numeric digits" comes and makes edits of varying quality to articles on music history (their instructor never replies or makes corrections, leaving it to us to clean up the mess). That one is harder to manage in some ways because they edit existing articles, adding references, often to books we don't have access to and often without understanding the topic at all. With this class project, they seem to be adding new articles, which can be moved into user space if they're questionable. In my opinion we stand to get some good new content out of this, on topics that would never get articles otherwise. Antandrus (talk) 15:15, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

We can expect a bit of unconstructive edits. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 16:49, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

I have to agree with Anna's analysis. We should be extending every bit of good faith to the students and what support is available to the supervisor. On another note, I find Colofac's comments reprehensible and atrocious, and lacking in good faith but given he is a british nationalist, such a POV is perhaps not unexpected. --Blackmane (talk) 15:26, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

Re: Colfac's comments: I would be instantly blocked if I spoke my mind about the gross inaccuracy of his comments. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 16:49, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

Let's get to work

I've tidied up a list of users and their article creations, and put it here: User:Bobrayner/NNU

• Feel free to review the articles listed there; tag, fix &c as appropriate. Bear in mind that these appear to be well-intentioned users who might not be totally familiar with wikipedia's rules (though some are already using real references, headings &c and others are writing userspace drafts) so deviations from the norm should be met with help rather than criticism.
• I'm going to welcome each user.
• If you want to edit/improve that list in anyway, go ahead.
• Dwelling on past misdeeds is not going to help. Colofac appears to have taken a 1-week break from editing and I'm sure Colofac will not bite these Chinese users on their return.

bobrayner (talk) 15:38, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for your sandox list.

The forthcoming welcomes will be appreciated.

I will be watching Colofac. One nip and I will snap. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Anna Frodesiak (talk • contribs)

Watching the list, checking Facebook for friends who speak Chinese. There are some articles that under normal circumstances I would be redirecting, like Barley Gruel to Gruel, without moving the content. I suppose I should look for sources for the new material and move what isn't opinion, right? I guess I'll also move the article creator's stuff to his userpage so he can save it. Seem like an appropriate general approach for this? Ian.thomson (talk) 16:01, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

(ec) I tripped over a couple of these accounts creating articles in similar styles and unfortunately the first case I came across a speedy deleted article being recreated moments later. Consequently I raised an SPI report before being made aware of this background. If someone is taking care of these new users, perhaps they might put some sort of welcome banner that might welcome them as a student editor (if that is what we think they are)? At the moment with no coordination, at first glance this seems quite disruptive and I dare say more of these users will get unfortunate warnings as possible meatpuppets. --Fæ (talk) 16:06, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

On the "barley gruel" thing, it seems to be about some specific variety of barley gruel which may well be notable in its own way (much as Ravioli has its own article rather than redirecting to Pasta) but which won't have much coverage in English-language sources. It might be worth pausing before redirecting articles like that. With a little help & encouragement, the editors may be able to find better sources which establish the notability/importance of this particular subject. bobrayner (talk) 16:10, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

Many sorts of gruel are staples in China. First stop would be to check for existence of corresponding entries at zh.wp.

Agreed that this is not the threat that is usual with this pattern of activity, and I appreciate the efforts of those who have spent time investigating the editors/edits whilst thorough assuming good faith. It's a shame that the lecturer hasn't made this project transparent as far as we here are concerned. Let's just monitor the progress if we cannot contact the person centrally responsible and deal with the articles/edits on completion of the project. --Ohconfucius ^¡digame! 16:24, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Ah, yeah, that's possible. Well, I've already left a copy of an older version in his userspace just in case. I'm for providing userspace back-ups so the students will have something to show for their work. Ian.thomson (talk) 16:31, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

I found a powerpoint presentation on Hong Kong Google that is entirely about Danyang Barley Gruel. I'll keep looking for more stuff. Silverseren^C 16:32, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

I created several of these accounts myself through ACC. I remember many of the comments indicate the English language as being part of their course objective. I think this group is poised to communicate in English, and we don't need to be overly hindered by the presupposition of a language barrier.--My76Strat (talk) 16:44, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

Also consider that many accounts were created in this form as well.--My76Strat (talk) 16:56, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

My76Strat, thanks for that extra list; they have already been added. bobrayner (talk) 17:19, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

I don't think the language barrier will be a huge issue. These students are quite good at understanding written English. The issues are more likely to be unclear guidance given to students, strange formatting, and copyvios. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 17:00, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

Not language barrier as such in communicating with them. I noticed that contributions often have poor English, and are often sourced to Baidu. One has already been tagged OR. Under ordinary circumstances, I would have personally put many of these efforts up for deletion. I have now added interwikis to some of the new creations, so these can be tracked to their zh.wp counterparts. --Ohconfucius ^¡digame! 01:28, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

Johann Hari sockpuppetry

On the "Category:Suspected Wikipedia sockpuppets of David r from meth productions" is User:Robblackhurst whose one edit, on Talk:Johann Hari started "I've just stumbled across the Johann Hari entry which, as a reader of his work since his first pieces in the New Statesman, seems to me to be balanced and accurate." (23 October 2006)

There is an editor, User:Zafio whose first edit - also on Talk:Johann Hari started "I wonder if a fresh perspective might be useful? I stumbled upon, some months ago and quite by accident, the dispute over this page. As a relative newcomer to Wikipedia, I found the whole process fascinating, and at times good theatre" (22 November 2007)

Zafio's contributions continued to involve the Hari page throughout 2008.

In 2009 and 2010 Zafio made no contributions to the Johann Hari page, making just 16 edits. Zafio's first edit of 2011 was on 12 July, back on Talk:Johann Hari: "I agree with most of Yonmei's suggestions here. I was involved in discussions of this page some years ago, and agree that Dave R may have some COI. I doubt very much that he is Hari, however, accusations that have resurfaced elsewhere on the web."

Zafio has edited on 12 & 15-18 July and then on 16-17 September. User:David r from meth productions was banned from WP on 18 July 2011. IMO Zafio is another David R sock. Yours, almost-instinct 15:57, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

That's not the most convincing evidence, I'm afraid. You raise some good points, but given the amount of scrutiny Hari has on him at present, I doubt very much if this is a sock. The Cavalry (Message me) 17:38, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

Agree with Cavalry that the evidence isn't great - but if you're adamant, then have a look at WP:SPI. GiantSnowman 17:47, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

Sorry for neglecting to add the userlinks:

Zafio (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Thelionforreal (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Robblackhurst (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Quinefan (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

David r from meth productions (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Given his five year history of using wikipedia for self-aggrandisement, assuming that he would be sensible enough to leave socking alone should not be the only reason for concluding that he isn't. I urge you to examine the styles of the contributions, especially looking at Zafio's very first contribution - a huge addition to a discussion on the Hari talk page. Also look at the dates for the 100 edits Zafio has made in 2011. I'm afraid that I'm not really experienced enough with this side of WP to know how to go about WP:SPI almost-instinct 17:58, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

I find the arguments quite unconvincing as well. Meanwhile, per the rather clear instructions You must notify any user who is the subject of a discussion, have you notified all the editors whom you have accused here? Cheers. Collect (talk) 18:05, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I followed the rather clear instruction and notified User:Zafio on his/her talkpage. The other accounts are already listed as socks of the banned account and none of them are active almost-instinct 18:21, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

Which you wouldn't have had to do had you gone to WP:SPI.--Bbb23 (talk) 18:16, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the heads-up - I've just done so. Yonmei (talk) 18:58, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

For the record, I'm certainly not a sockpuppet, nor do I have any personal connection with Johann Hari. I actually challenged "David R" on a few edits, back in the day, though given the elaborateness of his fiction this is possibly not beyond Johann Hari! But there was a fairly civil set of exchanges between myself, "David R", and another user SamuelSpade. I did rejoin the page in July, but thats not surprising, since Johann Hari was big news that month as you all know, and I'd been interested in the page before. Most of the 100 edits I made in July were spent fending off Yonmei's tireless attacks on me based on his or her suspicions. That user received an admin warning for WP: OUTING, among other things, for this behaviour. Its tiresome to see this issue arise again, though at least in this instance the proper channels are being used, instead of intimidating behaviour. Small mercies indeed. Zafio (talk) 18:32, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

I'm not very keen on personal information being discussed here, but this might merit it because it strongly indicates I am not Johann Hari.

In this diff on the Morrissey talk page I respond to a contributor who removed a reference to Morrissey's Catholic upbringing: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Morrissey&diff=prev&oldid=188606791

In this diff (written in February 2008), I write that "Few of my catholic friends, nor myself, practice or even believe particularly; but indeed catholic is what we are."

Can anyone find a single source where Johann Hari has made any personal identification with Catholicism, a religion he has consistently attacked? Can anyone possibly imagine *Johann Hari* writing that catholicism is "in the blood", as I write in this diff? (My own identification with Catholicism is a Dara O'Briain style cultural catholicism. I'm a non-believer).

Its possible, I suppose, that Hari was brought up in the Catholic church (if so he hasn't talked about it as far as i know). But he has never made, to my knowledge, even the mildest identification with Catholicism. He is not simply a non-believer, he is a radical anti-theist who shows no sympathy or identification with any religion whatsoever. I have no idea if he likes Morrissey.

I hope this settles the matter, although given the paranoia displayed on these pages, I have my doubts. Only a deranged mind could imagine I'd planted this diff three years ago awaiting just this eventuality. I hope reasonable editors doubts are put to rest. Zafio (talk) 22:41, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

"In the end, 'David Rose' invented at least fifteen biographical facts (from a lawyer girlfriend in Walthamstow and subbing jobs at the Independent and Spectator, to a principled and noisy opposition to the invasion of Iraq) which were simply not true; it was a fluent stream of lies contrived just so that the systemic smear campaign and dishonest self-promotional exercise could carry on and never be exposed." David Allen Green, Further thoughts on "David Rose", 17 September 2011

Or in other words, no, your producing evidence that Zafio has publicly identified as a Catholic no more settles the matter than David R's producing evidence that he had a lawyer girlfriend in Walthamstow. David R was also rather fond of accusing his accusers of being deranged. Yonmei (talk) 00:41, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

Thats fine, Yonmei, that message was not addressed to you in particular. Its already clear that you've made up your mind, and by your own admission you won't accept any argument I would or could make. If I defend myself, then I'm guilty. In fact, the more I defend myself, the more you believe. I literally cannot persuade you, and I leave this for other readers to judge if this is a reasonable position. Though if this carries on, my IP addresses will stand up to scrutiny. But that is not your job, and you have neither the only nor the final say.

Its not surprising to me that "David Rose" invented so many facts; its now become clear that this was quite an impressive web of fiction.

However, all of those inventions had some relation or other to disputes on or surrounding the Johann Hari page. None of them had any connection to the Morrissey talk page. David Allen Green has not accused Hari of inserting hostile reviews of Vauxhall and I into Wikipedia. To believe that my account is a sockpuppet account, you have to believe the following: that Hari not only invented biographical facts about "David Rose" in his editorial disputes on his own Wiki page (which is an established fact), but also that he invented another sockpuppet to plant invented beliefs on articles that have no connection to Johann Hari (There are one or two others of this kind). So that at a later date he could reuse that identity if his cover was blown elsewhere. Behaviour that, if discovered at this point, would be suicidal in career terms.

Possible? Yes. Likely? No. Good evidence for a sockpuppet investigation? Not especially convincing.

This is not the only outlandish claim made by this editor, but it is certainly an instructive one. Zafio (talk) 01:55, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

Repeated harassment by User:TomPhan (350 sockpuppets and counting)

Per many previous discussions, I again request a block of User:Buff Saturd. It is ridiculous that I have to continually put up with this kind of harassment and waste time dealing with more wikistalking (reference the previous block request...note that nothing has changed...Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive711#Long-term_stalking_by_User:TomPhan_through_User:Sregor_Ylloj). Request immediate block for sockpuppetry (clear pattern of behavior: revert what I put in with no significant reason or discussion with an "uncanny" ability to cite WP policies in an edit summary or !voting simply to cancel out my !vote). Block with all speed and prejudice! Buffs (talk) 23:32, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

• I didn't research the history of this further, but if nothing else the username alone is grounds for a block, and I have done so on that basis. Another admin is welcome to tag as a sock, etc., as appropriate. --Kinu ^t/_c 23:36, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

This is clearly TomPhan even without CU evidence; that being said, I couldn't find any other socks. –MuZemike 00:18, 19 September 2011 (UTC)