Talk:Buffalo wing and Jean-Baptiste Carpeaux: Difference between pages

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[[Image:Jean-Baptiste Carpeaux's marble sculpture 'Ugolino and his Sons', Metropolitan Museum of Art.jpg|thumb|right|400px|Jean-Baptiste Carpeaux's marble sculpture 'Ugolino and his Sons', Metropolitan Museum of Art]]
I do not see the relevance of the link to [[Zen Lunatics]] at the end of this article. Unless someone objects, I would delete it later. [[User:Tomos|Tomos]] 23:03, 23 Oct 2003 (UTC)
[[Image:Jean-Baptiste_Carpeaux_La_Danse.jpg|thumb|right|400px|La Danse (The Dance), Opera Garnier in Paris]]
{{Commonscat}}


'''Jean-Baptiste Carpeaux''' ([[May 11]], [[1827]], [[Valenciennes]] –[[October 12]], [[1875]], [[Courbevoie]]) was a French sculptor and painter. His early studies were under [[François Rude]]. Carpeaux won the [[Prix de Rome]] in [[1854]], and moving to [[Rome]] to find inspiration, he there studied the works of [[Michelangelo Buonarroti|Michelangelo]], [[Donatello]] and [[Andrea del Verrocchio|Verrocchio]]. Staying in Rome from [[1854]] to [[1861]], he obtained a taste for movement and spontaneity, which he joined with the great principles of [[baroque art]]. In [[1861]] he made a bust of [[Mathilde Bonaparte|Princess Mathilde]], and this later brought him several commissions from [[Napoleon III]]. He worked at the pavilion of [[Flora (goddess)|Flora]], and the [[Opéra Garnier]]. His group La Danse (the Dance, [[1869]]), situated on the right side of the façade, was criticised as an offence to common decency.
The origin of the buffalo wing is disputed - Calvin Trillin offers a long discussion in one of his books. Would this fact (once I get my hands on which book and chapter) be an appropriate one to add? [[User:Crayfish|Crayfish]]


He never managed to finish his last work, the famous Fountain of the Four Parts of the Earth, on the Place Camille Jullian. He did finish the terrestrial globe, supported by the four figures of [[Asia]], [[Europe]], [[North America|America]] and [[Africa]], and it was [[Emmanuel Frémiet]] who completed the work by adding the eight leaping horses, the tortoises and the dolphins of the basin.
BTW, if you're going to visit Buffalo and have time for only a single wing place, make it Duff's. Anchor wings cost more, are crappier, and the place is touristy. Duff's is an old-school wing dive, and what you don't pay for in ambience you get in the best damn wings in Buffalo, which are the best damn wings in the known universe.


== Sculptures by Carpeaux ==
On the other hand, I would contest that Duff's Famous Wings contain far too much vinegar and makes the wings terrible. The ideal wings should be sweet & spicy, NOT sour & spicy. Duff's wings causes you to be thirsty and result in higher beer sales and lower satisfaction for wing connoisseurs. I believe people think these wings are good because of the psychological effect of reading the words "Famous Wings" in authentic looking font.


* Ugolin et ses fils - [[Ugolino della Gherardesca|Ugolino]] and his Sons (1861, in the permanent collection of the [[Metropolitan Museum of Art]])[[http://www.insecula.com/oeuvre/photo_ME0000009025.html]] with versions in other museums including the [[Musée d'Orsay]]
[http://www.mapquest.com/maps/map.adp?country=US&addtohistory=&formtype=address&searchtype=address&cat=&address=3651%20Sheridan%20Dr&city=Buffalo&state=NY&zipcode=14226%2d1702&searchtab=home Map to Duff's]
* The Dance (commissioned for the [[Palais Garnier|Opera Garnier]])
* Jeune pêcheur à la coquille - [[Naples|Neapolitan]] Fisherboy - in the [[Louvre]], [[Paris]] [[http://www.insecula.com/oeuvre/photo_ME0000034255.html]]
* Girl with Shell
* [[Antoine Watteau]] monument, [[Valenciennes]]


==Neapolitan Fisherboy==
:: I second that Anchor is not worth the trip and that Duff's is the real deal. I propose that Anchor be only referenced with respect to the origin of the wing, not a good place to get some. We wouldn't want visitors going to Anchor and getting the wrong idea. [[User:Flazzarino|franco]]


Carpeaux submitted a plaster version of ''Pêcheur napolitain à la coquille'', the Neapolitan Fisherboy, to the [[French Academy]] while a student in [[Rome]]. He carved the marble version several years later, showing it in the Salon exhibition of 1863. It was purchased for [[Napoleon III]]'s empress, [[Eugénie de Montijo|Eugènie]]. The statue of the young smiling boy was very popular, and Carpeaux created a number of reproductions and variations in marble and bronze. There is a copy, for instance, in the Samuel H. Kress Collection in the [[National Gallery of Art]] in [[Washington D.C.]]
I would vote for the Anchor bar on taste but agree on the tourist factor. It is THE place to get wings and the buffalo atmosphere. Often there is live jazz on the weekends, and the flavor is great. Prices are more expensive for other foods but I never noticed a major difference in wing prices to Duff's. Duff's are not bad wings just not the best, it also tends to be the place where people who grew up outside of Buffalo go when they don't know of anyplace better. Another point that should be mentioned is the local place around the corner, probably has better wings than them both. They both try very hard to be the best. ~sbrof


Some years later, he carved the Girl with a Shell, a very similar study.
The problem with listing out anything other than the Anchor bar and maybe Duffs, is we don't want the article turning into a list of places to get wings in Buffalo. Otherwise, it would just grow into a list of a pizza, sub and wing shops in Buffalo. Besides, in my opinion.... neither Duffs or the Anchor Bar serve great wings. For that you have to go to (insert favorite local place here). --[[User:162.119.240.103|162.119.240.103]] 21:11, 1 February 2006 (UTC)


Carpeaux sought real life subjects in the streets and broke with the classical tradition. The Neapolitan Fisherboy's body is carved in intimate detail and shows an intricately balanced pose. Carpeaux claimed that he based the Neapolitan Fisherboy on a boy he had seen during a trip to [[Naples]].
I just returned from visiting friends in Buffalo and naturally had to try both Duff's and Anchor Bar. I found that Duff's medium is the same as Anchor's hot, just as the waitstaff at Duff's says. Aside from that, I found them both to be excellent examples of Buffalo Wings. Duff's wings had a sharper bite to them, and a lot of flavor. The Anchor wings had quite a bit less sauce (that is to say, they weren't swimming in it) and somehow had a more subtle taste that really impressed me. I'm attributing that to different quality & quanitites of vinegar. After all is said and done, if you're visiting Buffalo and want to get some good wings, stop by Anchor Bar to taste the fine exquisite taste that the original provides. Then go over to Duff's and load up on wings that will really knock your socks off with a touch less flavor but a lot more zing. - [[User:Ioldanach|Ioldanach]]


==External links==
To hell with yankees and their "Buffalo Wings"! The best damn chicken wings in the world are found in Sammy's Deli in Columbia, SC.


*[http://cartelfr.louvre.fr/cartelfr/visite?srv=rs_display_res&critere=jean+baptiste+carpeaux&operator=AND&nbToDisplay=5&langue=fr A page on the official Louvre site giving access to some of Carpeaux's works (French language only)]
A "buffalo wing" is something specific, a "chicken wing" is something else.[[User:Dcarr350|Dcarr350]] 03:18, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
*[http://www.insecula.com/contact/A005511_oeuvre_1.html A page from insecula.com listing more views of Carpeaux's works (also in French;] it may be necessary to close an advertising window to view this page)
*[http://www.studiolo.org/MMA-Ugolino/Ugolino.htm A page analysing Carpeaux's ''Ugolino'', with numerous illustrations]


[[Category:French sculptors|Carpeaux, Jean-Baptiste]]
I hear "chicken wings" alot more than i hear "Buffalo wings" and i think renaming the article to chicken wings would be more appropriate. --[[User:Dallin Tanjo22|Dallin Tanjo22]] 03:13, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
[[Category:1827 births|Carpeaux, Jean-Baptiste]]
[[Category:1875 deaths|Carpeaux, Jean-Baptiste]]


[[de:Jean-Baptiste Carpeaux]]
In the Western New York area chicken wings are known as "wings". If anyone refers to them as "Buffalo Wings" we generally know that they are visiting from out of town.
[[fr:Jean-Baptiste Carpeaux]]

[[nl:Jean-Baptiste Carpeaux]]
But how can you differentiate wings cooked in other ways from deep-fried-wings-in-vinegar-and-spicy-sauce if you simply call "Buffalo wings" wings? OR americans have no other way to prepare their wings? ;P
[[pl:Jean-Baptiste Carpeaux]]

[[pt:Jean-Baptiste Carpeaux]]
== South Campus close to the Anchor Bar? ==
[[zh:让-巴蒂斯·卡尔波]]

By what criteria is UB's South Campus close to the Anchor Bar? The Anchor Bar is downtown, while South Campus is in the extreme northeast of the city. I mean, it's not like an epic journey or anything, but I'd be willing to bet that South Campus is closer to Duff's than it is to the Anchor Bar.

This page is making me hungry, by the way. I grew up in Buffalo and while you can now get pretty good wings elsewhere, there ain't nothin' like a Buffalo wing. I would dispute the above comment, by the way: I think the Anchor Bar's wings are meatier, and the sauce more flavorful, than Duff's. --[[User:Jfruh|Jfruh]] 20:23, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

Depends, Anchor bar is only about a 8 minute subway ride from South Campus. Which means you can enjoy your wings and beer, Duffs someone has to drive often to find there are no seats avaiable (since it is smaller). ~sbrof

== Move Page ==

Buffalo wing refers to the sauce and to some degree the service. That is it. It is the way it is made and the way it is served with BLUE CHEESE that turns a Chicken Wing into a Buffalo Wing. Chicken wings have been around forever, BBQ wings have been around forever, Hot wings are a derivative of Buffalo wings. Whether people know them somewhere as a wing or something else, if it is prepared the way outlined on the page it is a BUFFALO wing. There are copy cats, there are people who don't know what the difference is and people trying to sell the Buffalo name. If it isn't prepared the way described, tasting almost the same, with a variation in heat and few different twists it is not a BUFFALO CHICKEN WING. Moreover, if it is served with ranch, the wing wont change, but the combination isn't the best or should I say most Authentic. Nevertheless, avid Buffalo wing and blue cheese eaters often run out of blue cheese leaving just the wing. The Buffalo wing. [[User:Dcarr350|Dcarr350]] 03:29, 17 June 2007 (UTC)


I would like to suggest that this page is moved from 'Buffalo Wings' to 'Chicken Wings' --[[User:T-rex|T-rex]] 17:54, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

:I would disagree. There are ways of preparing chicken wings (with BBQ sauce, for instance) that takes them out of the "Buffalo wings" category. --[[User:Jfruh|Jfruh]] 15:14, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

::Which is why I think that 'Chicken Wings' would be more appropriate. --[[User:T-rex|T-rex]] 16:04, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

:::Right, but ''this'' article is about Buffalo wings specifically. --[[User:Jfruh|Jfruh]] 16:35, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

:::Not all chicken wings are buffalo wings, so this article should continue to be called "buffalo wings". Buffalo wings mean a specific thing: Wings in hot sauce, w/ blue cheese. [[User:Rhobite|Rhobite]] 20:39, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

::No, for example it is posible to have barbacue buffalo wings. There isn't a contradiction there. Buffalo Wings refers to the way in which the chicken is cooked, not by the type of sause that is used to cover them.

:::I disagree. When most people think of "buffalo sauce" or "buffalo flavor" (which is now on more stuff than just chicken wings) they think of the original Buffalo Wing sauce -- a combination of cayenne pepper, butter, and garlic. --[[User:Jfruh|Jfruh]] 20:33, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

More people know them as chicken wings. It should be renamed.--[[User:Dallin Tanjo22|Dallin Tanjo22]] 22:56, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Wings are available either with butter sauce OR barbeque sauce mixed with the hot sauce in many pizza places around Buffalo (if not in it; I'm not sure about that. Ie, Blasdell's Pizza, Eden Seafodd, etc ...) And though people in Buffalo usually call them chicken wings, it does not make them that generic. A chicken wing is a chicken wing whether it is cooked "buffalo-style" or still feathered and attached to a live chicken. "More people" are outside Buffalo and therefore know them as Buffalo wings, NOT chicken wings. Only die-hard Buffalo residents refer to them as "chicken wings."

---

This article is currently titled "Buffalo Wings," but it is also the redirect of chicken wings. Accordingly, unless someone wants to develop a separate "Chicken Wings" article, arguments that the two are distinct are unavailing.

Nonetheless, it may (or may not) be the case that the title of the joint article should be chicken wings (versus buffalo wings). Given that there is a redirect, I don't think it much matters except for issues of pride. For what it is worth, here far from Buffalo, as many people refer to this product as "wings," "chicken wings," or "hot wings" as refer to it as "buffalo wings." I think the era of a strong association with Buffalo is quickly fading.

[[User:Cka3n|Cka3n]] 08:20, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

That is simply not true. Go to a local supermarket, want chicken wings with orange sauce? They will be called BUFFALO wings. Want a chicken sandwich with orange sauce..again, BUFFALO. Order some chicken wings from Pizza Hut, want orange sauce?..BUFFALO. The buffalo wing and the chicken wing are two entirely different entities. This article is an article about the former.

== best wings ==

Buffalo wings are definitely best in upstate New York--crispier and not as "wet" or undercooked like you typically get in California. I lived in the area around Utica, New York back in 1984 when I attended [[Hamilton College]]. A friend of mine in the dorm bet everyone that he could eat 25 wings without stopping for celery or fluids. He knocked back 47 "hot" wings before practically passing out. Ah, the glories of youth.

:Im suprised you even found wings that far from buffalo, although they really shouldn't be crispy --[[User:T-rex|T-rex]] 23:22, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
::Oh, they're everywhere now. You can get them at a Hard Rock Cafe, even outside of the U.S. [[User:Rhobite|Rhobite]] 01:05, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
:Yes, but else where they suck --[[User:T-rex|T-rex]] 03:18, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
::They sure SHOULD be crispy. Anchor Bar wings are crispy (the skin). Wings everywhere else are a soggy mess.
:::So very true. I've been all over North America, and I believe that once you get 20 miles away from the Niagara River on either side of the border, the wings are nothing close to being good. There are some amazing wings on the Canadian side of the border, in Niagara Falls in particular, of the same delicious Buffalo style. There's nothing quite like that 'crunch' you get when biting into a properly cooked wing. The sauce should be moist, the skin crispy yet not burnt, and the meat inside cooked. There's nothing worse than a dry wing or those baked wings that they try to pass off elsewhere in Canada. [[User:Snickerdo|Snickerdo]] 04:40, 18 February 2007 (UTC)


the best chicken wings i have ever had are at the nine-eleven (name has nothing to do with the terror attacks, they had that name since 1983) tavern, on South Park, and Bloomfield in South Buffalo.

== varations ==

A line about Buffalo Fingers also known as Boneless Buffalo Wings should also be included. [[User:Joncnunn|Joncnunn]] 17:59, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
:I think this would be more appropriate on the [[chicken fingers]] page --[[User:T-rex|T-rex]] 18:56, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

:Actually I found that wikipedia lacked an article on [[chicken fingers]]. So I created it and did include Boneless Buffalo Wings. --[[User:T-rex|T-rex]] 20:55, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

::I'm thinking that the fact that the archtypical wing sauce (cayenne pepper sauce, white vinegar, butter, salt, and garlic) is now almost always called simply called "Buffalo sauce" or "Buffalo flavoring" -- even by people who don't associate it with the city or chicken wings -- deserves more than the passing mention it gets up front. A little section on this topic perhaps could explain the origin of things like "boneless Buffalo wings". --[[User:Jfruh|Jfruh]] 21:38, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

:::Who the heck calls chicken fingers "boneless buffalo wings"? Geographically? ~[[User:Mdd4696 |MDD]][[User_talk:Mdd4696 |46]][[Special:Contributions/Mdd4696 |96]] 02:41, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

::::"Chicken Fingers" are of US (Southern) origin, but unless otherwise mentioned, are not cooked in any sauce, but are instead dipped in a wide varity of sauces post-cooking. The first time I heard "Buffalo fingers" was at a pub in St Charles, MO. [Southern & Northern traditions crossing.] They offered both the original butter dip & ranch sauce. Another midwest chain restraunt with origins in the St Louis area calls the same thing "Boneless Buffalo Wings." I've eaten "Buffalo Wings" often, but after I got braces was unable to eat them, but could have "Buffalo Fingers" and loved them. [[User:Joncnunn|Joncnunn]] 20:52, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Everywhere outside of the WNY area that I've encountered wings have always been terrible. And part of the reason is the fact that people insist on breading them. DO NOT BREAD YOUR WINGS. That turns them into a gloppy mess. Which reminds me, that link to "how to make hot wings" has to be nixed. Why? Breading. Anyone who has ever worked at a pizza joint in WNY knows that you don't bread them. [unknown user]

:I'd agree with you on many of the "home made" ones with breading; but the professionals who know what their doing results will still taste like proper wings. [[User:Joncnunn|Jon]] 15:05, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

== Images ==

In a rather odd coincidence, I saw last night that there was no image for this article, so I decided to take a trip to Duff's to shoot some pictures of wings... and when I come back and upload the picture, there's one there! I added mine too, it's not very good (Duff's is infamously a dark restaurant). Feel free to alter it. --[[User:Varco|Varco]] 05:04, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

:God damn you people, as if editing this page doesn't make me hungry enough, now you go and add high-res pictures of chicken wings! So .... delicious ... (drool) --[[User:Jfruh|Jfruh]] ([[User talk:Jfruh|talk]]) 05:22, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
::They were delicious indeed... and now I want more after staring at that picture while tweaking it.. --[[User:Varco|Varco]] 05:28, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

== Other chicken wings? ==

Right now, Chicken Wings redirects here. Chicken wings served Buffalo-style (meaning with a red, pepper-based sauce) predominate in the U.S. However, the hot-wing "market share" is less and less as time goes on (consider, e.g., sauceless wings like grilled chicken wings or Nashville-style "hot chicken" chicken wings or non-traditional sauces like cajun wings).

Should the separate chicken wings article be revived? Should this article have a subsection referring to other wings? Probably Buffalo Wings, as a subset, should redirect to Chicken Wings, not vice versa (especially as even considering only the Buffalo-style wing, it is less and less the case that people call that sauce Buffalo sauce as opposed to hot wings or similar variants).

== University at Buffalo ==

Shouldn't this be either SUNY-Buffalo or UB? Right now, it seems only confusing.

== Duff's and Anchor Bar ==

I've never been anywhere near Buffalo, and I'm not the editor that added the prior references, but I've heard of both Duff's and Anchor Bar. My impression is that they are the most famous of the Buffalo wings restaurants (indeed, as the article notes, many believe that the Anchor bar introduced the modern wing). I did some google research to find some sources, and I reintroduced the two restaurants with more circumspect language.

[[User:Cka3n|Cka3n]] 04:12, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

== Preparation ==

The bit about cayenne sauce, vinegar, garlic etc. should be deleted and it should simply be hot sauce and butter as the original wing sauce was just franks red hot sauce and butter.
:Quite true. The thickness and 'stickyness' of the sauce can be varied by the amount of butter added or by adding a sugar/vinegar mixture. [[User:Snickerdo|Snickerdo]] 23:04, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

:Disagree. Frank's isn't available everywhere globally, and a description of the ingredients is needed to provide enough context for non-North American readers. And we cite Frank's in the "History" section anyway. [[User:Susan Davis|Susan Davis]] 15:48, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

== Anchor bar, Frank's Hot Sauce, and other unsourced claims ==

We need better sources for these claims. The Frank's Hot Sauce website isn't quite a reliable source for this info. It's in their commercial best interest, of course, to claim this. And I don't believe that chicken wings were EVER just thrown away! [[User:Wikipediatrix|wikipediatrix]] 20:34, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

: As late as the 1970s, Big Boy restaurants advertised their chicken with "no wings!" as one of the selling points. I've added a couple more references about how wings got started, but the fact that it happened at Anchor in Buffalo in the 1960s is very well established. [[User:Susan Davis|Susan Davis]] 15:46, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

===Disputed===
The exact date is in dispute, as even the sources listed here differ. It probably shouldn't be in the article. — [[User:Arthur Rubin|Arthur Rubin]] | [[User_talk:Arthur_Rubin|(talk)]] 15:59, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

== Famous Wings ==

I noticed [[Wing Zone]] is a "See Also" link. Should we add all franchises specializing in buffalo wings?
*[[Anchor Bar]]
*[[Buffalo Wild Wings]]
*[[Duff's]]
*[[http://droversinn.net/ Drovers Inn]]
*[http://www.frickers.com Fricker's]
*[[Hooters]]
*[http://www.lswings.com Lone Star Wings]
*[http://www.mo-joes.com Mo-Joes Wings]
*[http://www.nativenewyorker.com Native New Yorker Restaurant]
*[http://www.planetwings.com Planet Wings]
*[http://www.roosterswings.com Rooster's]
*[http://www.wingers.info Wingers Grill and Bar]
*[http://www.wingmanwings.com Wingman Wings]
*[http://www.wingsover.com Wings Over]
*[http://www.wingspizzanthings.com Wings-Pizza-N-Things]
*[http://www.wingstogo.com Wings To Go]
*[[Wingstop]]

Revision as of 01:07, 19 June 2007

Jean-Baptiste Carpeaux's marble sculpture 'Ugolino and his Sons', Metropolitan Museum of Art
La Danse (The Dance), Opera Garnier in Paris
Wikimedia Commons has media related to Jean-Baptiste Carpeaux.

Jean-Baptiste Carpeaux (May 11, 1827, Valenciennes –October 12, 1875, Courbevoie) was a French sculptor and painter. His early studies were under François Rude. Carpeaux won the Prix de Rome in 1854, and moving to Rome to find inspiration, he there studied the works of Michelangelo, Donatello and Verrocchio. Staying in Rome from 1854 to 1861, he obtained a taste for movement and spontaneity, which he joined with the great principles of baroque art. In 1861 he made a bust of Princess Mathilde, and this later brought him several commissions from Napoleon III. He worked at the pavilion of Flora, and the Opéra Garnier. His group La Danse (the Dance, 1869), situated on the right side of the façade, was criticised as an offence to common decency.

He never managed to finish his last work, the famous Fountain of the Four Parts of the Earth, on the Place Camille Jullian. He did finish the terrestrial globe, supported by the four figures of Asia, Europe, America and Africa, and it was Emmanuel Frémiet who completed the work by adding the eight leaping horses, the tortoises and the dolphins of the basin.

Sculptures by Carpeaux

Neapolitan Fisherboy

Carpeaux submitted a plaster version of Pêcheur napolitain à la coquille, the Neapolitan Fisherboy, to the French Academy while a student in Rome. He carved the marble version several years later, showing it in the Salon exhibition of 1863. It was purchased for Napoleon III's empress, Eugènie. The statue of the young smiling boy was very popular, and Carpeaux created a number of reproductions and variations in marble and bronze. There is a copy, for instance, in the Samuel H. Kress Collection in the National Gallery of Art in Washington D.C.

Some years later, he carved the Girl with a Shell, a very similar study.

Carpeaux sought real life subjects in the streets and broke with the classical tradition. The Neapolitan Fisherboy's body is carved in intimate detail and shows an intricately balanced pose. Carpeaux claimed that he based the Neapolitan Fisherboy on a boy he had seen during a trip to Naples.

External links

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