Talk:Shemale

NPOV on perjorative claims

The statement "most notable for its slang usage in a pejorative context" is sourced by [1] (Wimmin, Wimps, and Wallflowers) but the source does not support the claim of pejorative use (the actual text says "restricted to heterosexual use, the terms are not flattering", but that's all). It does support the claim that "shemale" is most commonly used in the sex industry, however.

I strongly feel the initial line should be changed to something like, "Shemale is an English noun most commonly used in a popular subcategory of pornography to refer to persons who appear to be physically female in most regards, but possess male genitals. Many transsexual women consider the term offensive because it suggests pre-operative and non-operative male-to-female transsexuals are something other than female."

Similarly, the claim "In LGBT communities, especially amongst transgender individuals, the term is considered offensive" seems overly broad without qualification of "often" or "most". This claim is sourced by [1][4][5] even though [1] indicates that some transgender women choose shemale as an identity category, [4] only says (sometimes offensive), and [5] is a highly questionable resource presumably written by a single anonymous author. An acceptable source for this would be a large national or international organization of transgender people which states in some official capacity that "the transgender community at large finds this offensive", not one person's opinion.

I know bringing this up will inflame passions. I don't want to create controversy. But this article has a historical tendency to be overrun by transwomen's POV that "shemale is pejorative" because most transwomen don't want to be called anything other than "woman". When people try to source the claim that "shemale" is a pejorative, it is sourced with websites where the material is created by a single author, usually a transwoman, who feels the same way. Not only does this not reflect what the word "shemale" means to most non-transgender people, it sends the impression that nearly all transgender people consider the term to be a slur. There are a number of transgender communities (such as various online communities with personal avatars, furry fandom both online and in real life, even entire countries like Thailand) where the term "shemale" is not generally considered offensive, even among transgender women.

In any case, the primary use of shemale is a description of a certain kind of gender/sex combination that many men are sexually and interpersonally attracted to. Yes, most transwomen find the term offensive, and that bears mention here. But most transwomen find being called "man" offensive, and that doesn't mean the article on "man" should begin: "Man is most notable for its slang use in a pejorative context against transgender women".

--75.180.20.49 (talk) 20:07, 19 January 2009 (UTC) www.viptravesti.net —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.215.120.118 (talk) 10:34, 23 January 2009 (UTC) http://www.viptravesti.net —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.165.133.166 (talk) 10:52, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

I do not think this below listed section of text is relevant as it is more related to articles describing medical conditions. This part is also rather insensitive to sufferers of the condition in many ways or at least those who do not identify with genetic males that have augmented female breasts.

"In many instances intersex persons born with ambiguous genitalia have, at the request of their parents, or on the advice of surgeons, been surgically altered to appear more male before puberty (which may be the reason that many shemales appear to have female skeletal structure and fat distribution, feminine body hair patterns, and/or small genitals resembling those of a prepubescent boy); this often occurs in children with Reifenstein syndrome, a form of PAIS."

The term Shemale is specifically used for males with breast augmentation and not for partial mosaics, hermaphrodites and intersex individuals or surgical 'normalisation' procedures. I also agree with www.viptravesti.net that labelling the term pejorative is rather misleading. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.53.173.207 (talk) 18:54, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

I agree with 75.180.20.49, and note that more than two-thirds of this "article" is little more than a rant against the use of the term. The ones who do NOT find the term offensive are true shemales, who are simply MTF transgendered people who have chosen to keep their male genetalia. The article says absolutely nothing about the shemales who do prefer the use of the term so as to distinguish themselves from those who've had gender reassignment surgery. Finally, the reason many shemales appear not to have developed masculine traits is simply because they're from more progressive countries who don't have any qualms about prescribing testosterone-suppressing medication before they reach puberty. Medical conditions which cause adrogen insensitivity are exceedingly rare, and could not possibly be the cause for more than a very tiny fraction of boys who do not develop as males at puberty. Furthermore, failure to develop masculine traits at puberty does not result in the development of feminine traits, as the article currently suggests. All in all, this is a very poorly written article and should be completely rewritten from an objective perspective so as to remove the strong anti-shemale and anti-porn NPOV with which it is currently dripping. 20:40, 22 August 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.70.30.120 (talk)

If you can provide reliable references for any of the above comments, you're welcome to do so. I do expect, however, that some statements such as "The term Shemale is specifically used for males with breast augmentation" will not be able to be reliably referenced, as it's not accurate. --AliceJMarkham (talk) 04:30, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

Agreed, we follow what reliable sources states not what we want to write. -- Banjeboi 06:03, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

'Reliable sources' are usually made by academics not in touch with the situation on the ground which represents the real view. Try Urban Dictionary for example. It is very likely 'reliable sources' have never personally known any 'Shemales' or even been in the 'Shemale' club or porn scene. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.50.33.159 (talk) 21:08, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

NPOV re-added

I have re-added the NPOV tag following WP:COI edits by User:James Cantor, made to align the the article with the POV of his boss Ray Blanchard. I also added a reference for the word derogatory. I also believe that we should have a section called "academic use" vs. "scientific/medical use." Separating the ideologies of Ray Blanchard and Janice Raymond is a POV move. Both hold the same points of view about the terms she-male and about trans people. Jokestress (talk) 16:05, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

has this been resolved? -- Banjeboi 04:19, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Because the scientific RS's fail to support the activists' POV, no resolution is likely without substantial input from otherwise uninvolved editors. I recommend reading the arguments and sources, and asserting your own conclusion.— James Cantor (talk) 15:52, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

What's the main issue in your opinion? -- Banjeboi 16:36, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

The main issue, in my opinion, is the use of WP by some trans activists to encourage the use of the terms they themselves prefer over the terms used by other members of the trans communities or by medical/scientific experts. There are activists who prefer terms that indicate their womanhood (such as transwoman) over terms that do not, and the term "she-male" contains includes the word "male" rather than "female." The term is used non-pejoratively, however, by sex trade workers and in sex research studies.
Rather than merely indicate the alternative uses, however, the article space is becoming another WP battleground on which community activists selectively cite the uses that they prefer and attempt to discredit those who do otherwise. (That is, instead of the article saying Some people use the term this way while other people use it that way the article is being pushed to say This term means only this one thing and all dissenters are transphobic.) This pattern has played through a great many of the trans-related articles. Rather than precipitate a repeat conflict, however, I instead encourage you to read the article and sources and come to your own opinion.
— James Cantor (talk) 14:16, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

I may be missing something here but both cases are true. It is commonly used in a derogatory fashion and, similar to other slurs, has been in part either adopted or reclaimed. It is still a despised term and any scientist who had the nerve to set up a classification would seem rather disreputable whereas just noting it as a self-descriptor by those the scientist is studying would seem acceptable similar to having a list of different labels or even a blank where someone would self-identify. Blanchard's bit, IMHO, should include that his work is maligned for such usage. Meanwhile, erotic and sex industries capitalize on the use and transwomen do identify as shemale as needed to earn money, they would also just as easily identify as almost anything else conceivable and believable to appease a customer's preference. So I think it's a little disingenuous to assert the point with more emphasis than that. IMHO, it's a temporary label - even when used as a self-descriptor - not conforming to one's self-identity as much as reclaiming a word like "freak" "nigger" and "faggot" to take the sting out and dis-empower ones degraders. Usage within one's circle can be seen from a sociological view but I'm quite suspicious of adopting it well beyond that or that the number of people doing so is significant. -- Banjeboi 20:29, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

I can suggest only that one look up the references given in the article, which do not say what the main page says they say. For example, the main page says that the term shemale "is often seen by transsexual people as a term of abuse" citing as a source Herbst (2001). Herbst (2001) does not say any such thing, however. In fact, the only comment that Herbst makes regarding the connotation of the term is "The term may also refer positively to androgyny." The second source given on the main page is an online dictionary, which has questionable status as an RS, and which says, in parentheses, "sometimes offensive," which I agree with, but which is not very neutrally conveyed by 'often a term of abuse.'

In general, the term 'shemale' is considered derogatory when applied to people other than MtF folks who have socially transitioned but not undergone gential surgery (e.g., masculine lesbians or MtF folk who have completed transition). The cites in opposition to the term are comments made by community activists who are generally postsurgical MtF folk (and, thus, for whom the term would be innaccurate and negative), who have expertise only in areas outside linguistics (such as biology), and who are expressing their personal (and non-expert) opinions about the use of the term for them rather than the use of the term in general.

To repeat my earlier comment, I agree entirely with the page reflecting the mixed status of the term, but not with using the article space to actively promote the idea that the term is or is not offensive. As a tangent, I am not actually the person who added the POV-tag to the page. Whether the current content of the page accurately conveys what is said in the cites, or adds a spin of its own, is up to you to decide for yourself after reading the RS's.
— James Cantor (talk) 18:33, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

I have asked for input regarding the online dictionaries at RS/N.— James Cantor (talk) 18:58, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

When referring to trans women, this is a term used by Janice Raymond, Ray Blanchard, J. Michael Bailey, and pornographers. Almost all trans women find the term and the people who use it abhorrent, as noted in the reliable source. Contorting this into some sort of value-neutral term is just another attempt to insert the POV of your boss colleague/buddy/etc. This article is a big mess thanks to drive-by edits. It lacks cohesion and fails WP:UNDUE by trying to present this as a value-neutral term. Jokestress (talk) 19:29, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

When WP becomes What-Jokestress-Says-Pedia, then what Jokestress says about "almost all trans women" might be relevant (as if she spoke for almost all transwomen). Meanwhile, all we have is some of the sources (of debatable reliability) saying that some people object to the term when used in some circumstances (such as when refering to lesbians). None of the sources says anything approaching "almost all trans women" nor uses any term as laden as "abhorrent." The RS's do, however, contain what I have already said: There are people who find the term negative and there are people who find it neutral; the article should therefore reflect that. Because no one here is presenting the term as value-neutral (I have written multiple times that the term is used different ways by different people), Jokestress is debating a mirage of her own creation. (Missing from Jokestress list of who uses the term how are the sources (added to the page by people other than me) that also provide only neutral definitions, like Blanchard, devoid of negative connotation.)
Moreover, Blanchard and Bailey do not use the term to refer to postoperative folks, and Jokestress should either provide an RS showing they do or strike out her misstatement. Finally, although we collaborate on many projects, Blanchard is not my boss. Jokestress should provide evidence he is, or strike that out as well.
— James Cantor (talk) 20:30, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

"Most transwomen find the term abhorrent." Please read the article more carefully for the source to which I referred in my earlier comment. I can provide plenty of other sources that reflect reality about this term's usage. If you have a source that says this term is a "neutral" way to describe trans women, please provide it. Jokestress (talk) 22:08, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

• After I point out that none of the cites support your claim, a response of "Go find the cite yourself" essentially proves my point. There is no such cite.
• Statements like "I can provide plenty of other sources..." are similarly unconvincing when unaccompanied by any actual RS's. I would indeed encourage you, or anyone, to locate such RS's. For what it is worth, the discussion at RS/N suggests that such RS's should be from more established sources than the online dictionaries currently appearing on the page.
• As for RS's for neutral definitions: The Oxford English Dictionary makes explicit when terms have negative connotations, and the OED entry for she-male contains none of the OED's usual notes to that effect.
• Finally, given that you have also failed to produce any RS's about who my boss is (nor for Blanchard or Bailey's use she-malefor postoperative MtF folks), you also have some striking-out to do.

— James Cantor (talk) 22:44, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Connotations section is good but must not degenerate into propaganda against adult industry or shemales working in adult industry which appears to be the opinion of the academics Laura Castañeda and Shannon Campbell or Melissa Ditmore. Their writing form fuses concepts together, preempts and confuses and does not help separate and clarify. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.49.45.68 (talk) 02:26, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Proposed introduction

The lede below is designed to describe 150+ years of uses, from the most general sense to the most specific sense.

Shemale (sometimes she-male) is a slang term used in various ways since the mid-19th century for "almost anyone who appears to have bridged gender lines." This includes assertive women and passive men in its most general sense. The term has sometimes been used in zoology as a synonym for gynandromorph, non-human animals that display combinations of male and female traits or behaviors.

Its most common contemporary usage is to describe humans in the context of sexual orientation or gender identity. It has been used to describe lesbians, gay men, and transgender people. Through its use in sex work, the term shemale has become closely associated with trans women who have female secondary sex characteristics but have not undergone vaginoplasty. Other synonyms used in pornography include ladyboy and chicks with dicks. In this context, it is considered a dehumanizing slur according to the Gay and Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation, and most transwomen find the term abhorrent.

I recommend organizing the article to discuss the earliest uses (mainly agressive women), then use in zoology, then finally its use as a slur/porn term for trans women. Comments welcome. Jokestress (talk) 22:11, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Comments by 60.53.170.20

Trans women should not be used as it confuses Transsexuals with Shemales. I remind - term is generally acceptable for shemales, especially those in the adult industry. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.53.170.20 (talk • contribs)

I moved your revision to my comment to its own section. Please do not make changes to other editors' comments. As far as "shemale" only being a slur for women who are "fully transitioned," we need a source for that. According to the source in the article, it is a dehumanizing slur for all trans women, regardless of what steps they take to transition. Jokestress (talk) 06:15, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Should start with common and current uses, because that is what most users will be looking for.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.53.170.20 (talk • contribs)

• • • IP 60.53.170.20 is correct that the term "transwomen" is ambiguous and should not be used. Indeed, the word transwomen appears in none of the RS's providing a definition of she-male. It is Jokestress who is again missing references for her claims.
    • IP 60.53.170.20 is correct also that definitions should go from most to least common. Indeed, that is WP convention.
    • In all the RS's providing definitions, notes about negative connotations are included only in the definitions that refer to transsexuals (or similar term). The definitions refering to mixed anatomical status lack notes about negative connotation.
    • Jokestress is correct, however, that it is considered inappropriate on WP to edit other editors talk-page comments.

— James Cantor (talk) 13:42, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Let's leave the lede till last, then. I propose three (possibly four) sections:

1. Original uses (especially assertive women)
2. Non-human uses (bears, snakes, etc.)
3. LGBT uses (especially sex work/porn use for trans women)

• We could split out its use as a synonym for faggot, etc. into a separate section from the trans usage.

We can discuss the order, though I recommend chronologically. It actually makes sense when you see how the term came to have each meaning over time. I'd also like to see some sourcing for this alleged distinction in how this term is used when describing trans women. It's a slur no matter to whom it is applied. The GLAAD statement was released when "she-male" was used to describe Miriam, who is not "fully transitioned" (to use your term). The journalist who thought that slur was an acceptable term finally got the clue and apologized. Jokestress (talk) 16:42, 4 November 2009 (UTC)