Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2011 September 20

20 September 2011

List of killings of Muhammad

List of killings of Muhammad (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)

The closing admin User:Spartaz was queried about this deletion decision last week. He responded with a request for sources, which were given (see User talk:Spartaz#List of killings of Muhammad). There has been no reply, so perhaps it's time to open this review.

Originally I intended to serve as the closing admin. However, after reviewing the article and the deletion rationale, I decided to participate in the debate instead. For the record, although I argued against the deletion rationale, I have no dog in this fight; I am fine with the article existing or not existing. My main concern here is the closure of the debate.

For contentious articles like this, there were the usual problems with single purpose accounts as well as improper SPA tagging of accounts. But in the end, it seemed that among trusted, high-volume contributors (including two admins who supported keeping), there was no consensus to delete.

The closing admin's rationale was: The killer arguments are NPOV and the need for sources to specifically discuss this as a separately notable subject.

Addressing those two points:

• NPOV: There was no consensus regarding NPOV. Delete proponents claimed that the article promotes an agenda. Keep proponents claimed that the topic of assassination is not controversial among scholars of Arabian history, and Wikipedia isn't censored.
• Sources: There was no consensus concerning whether the sources were sufficient. Delete proponents felt the sources were lacking. Keep proponents disagreed, claiming that the article contains sources discussing the topic, and offering sources in the debate (See also the closing admin's talk page).

Note to all: A deletion review IS NOT "AfD round 2". The purpose here is not to continue the original debate, but rather to determine if the closure reflected the consensus (or lack thereof) in consideration of the arguments already presented. ~Amatulić (talk) 20:04, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

• And thank you to the nominator for so helpfully telling us how to conduct a DRV.

  It seems to me that the questions here are: (1) Whether a local lack of consensus can overrule our NPOV policy and allow non-neutral material to be retained; (2) How much weight to give to arguments that do not address the reasons for the nomination; (3) How much weight to give to Roscolese's argument that the list constituted original research and a synthesis; and (4) Whether Biophys' merge suggestion was a reasonable alternative to deletion (given that WP:BEFORE and WP:ATD enjoin us to exhaust the alternatives before deleting material).

  As for question 1, I think this one's crystal clear and simple to express. If something cannot be made into a NPOV article, then there is no place for it in Wikipedia. No matter how many sources there are. On question 2, I would say that there is no weight to be given to those arguments. It doesn't matter how many sources there are or how reliable the sources are, because the reason for deletion has nothing to do with sources. Thus Spartaz was quite right to disregard a very large number of !votes. On question 3, I would say that the WP:NOR and WP:SYNTH arguments were substantial and well-argued, but they effectively countered during the debate and should receive relatively little weight in the close. Question 4 opens a potential route to a compromise but I'm not overenamoured of it in this case. I don't think it's a good idea to create pointy articles about major religious figures.

  All in all my position is endorse, with a barnstar to Spartaz for coming to a decision when it must have been tempting to come to a compromise.—S Marshall T/C 20:40, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

You're welcome. I inserted that reminder because I have seen DRVs for highly contentious articles get out of hand in the past.

Regarding the neutrality of the material, that was one of the points of contention, and there was no clear consensus on that point, with the keep proponents arguing based on the sources. Spartaz's reason for deletion and followup question on his own talk page specifically focused on sources, so I don't see the logic in dismissing the arguments (on both sides) regarding sources, for which there was also no consensus. Finally, I personally wouldn't support a merge, in particular the Muhammad article is already too long and such a detailed review of his involvement in assassinations, while it may be worthy of a separate article, is a bit WP:UNDUE for the Muhammad article. I do think the title should use the word "assassinations" rather than "killings". I also congratulate Spartaz for tackling this difficult debate, although the closure still appears irregular to me. ~Amatulić (talk) 21:00, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

• Really hard case. From an AfD viewpoint I'd !vote to delete on the basis that I view the list article as an attempt to include negative material about the Muhammad, just as a "list of people Jesus swindled" would be. If there were RSes that made it clear this is either A) a highly notable topic or B) had put together a list like this themselves, I'd say we should have the article. But if not, it feels like an OR COATRACK to me. I don't agree that the topic is so NPOV that we can't have such an article, I'd just want there to be a real body of work in the area. Now, from a DRV viewpoint, was there a basis for deletion? I'd have to say so. The keep arguments were, in my opinion, fairly weak and the large number of new/SPS accounts gives the closer a lot of room to discount !votes. I felt the sources that were proposed were weak and so the notability argument was weak. I feel the assertion that lists need not be notable was a fine argument (that I often agree with), but it's had mixed results at AfD/DrV. I never felt the COATRACK issue was addressed and the attempt at defeating the NOR arguments was a bit of a stretch. The sources provided seemed weak and only passing mentions. I'd say that NC would also have been a reasonable reading of the discussion, but delete was probably a better one. So endorse deletion. Hobit (talk) 23:28, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

• Replying to CMarshall, (1) there is no topic capable of being made into an article that cannot be made into a NPOV article. Any and everything, if it can be discussed at all, can be discussed in a NPOV fashion. NPOV does not mean "the POV that I and most of us approve of." Anything can be discussed if there are sufficient reliable sources for the discussion that permit the presentation of the various POVs. As there are sources for all sorts of different views on the religious and military career of Mohammed, any aspect of it can be discussed from a NPOV. If, for example, one has the POV of a devout Muslim, one would necessarily think any fair discussion of his career will lead an unprejudiced reader to a wholly positive view of him: if some sources are prejudiced against him, better sources will refute them. The argument here would have to be that by assembling these in a list, the impression given is inevitably negative, but I consider that the sort of judgement which we are not entitled to give. Another possible argument is the difficulty of making a distinction between political assassination and punishment for crime and normal" warfare; this can be dealt by giving the circumstances more fully (2) The issues raised by the nominator were discussed and refuted. (a)There were good modern secondary sources as well as historical sources; (b)almost all the historical sources used (and all the primary ones) were by authors favorable to Mohammed; (c)there were sources cited in the discussing discussing this particular topic as a topic, (d)even though that is not necessary for a list, (e)that there were somer erroneous entries is not an argument for deletion of this or any other list, but for editing; the final version of it should be pruned further: I would in particular remove Banu Qurayza tribe, & the "approved of" (f)the tone & wording indeed strikes me as NPOV, but can be corrected (3) by the "NPOV and OR arguments" you presumably mean the arguments that there was a failure of NPOV and a dependence on OR. Failure of NPOV is always correctable and is never a reason for deletion, though it can be a reason for change of title or drastic editing. OR is a reason for deletion if it impossible to find sources that will overcome it. But in this case it was shown that such sources are available. The assembly and collection of material is not OR, but a necessary and inevitable part of writing every Wikipedia article. No sourced encyclopedia can be written otherwise, (4). It is the community not the closer who decides if compromise is possible. The possibilities were not adequately discussed. If they were not discussed then, they can be discussed now, or at a second AfD. We tend to do a preliminary discussion here to see if there would be some reason for expecting a different result, & then follow it up at the AfD if it continues contentious.
• As for the actual close, the first reason given is failure of NPOV. that reason is against policy; it is not ever a reason to delete an article. The second is OR. This is a matter for the community to judge, as it is a matter of degree. The community did not seem clear about it.
• Was there an actual reason to delete? there might have been. NPOV is not a reason to delete, but a fork or split of an article to express a POV is a reason to delete or merge or redirect. I would return the article to AfD to have a discussion focused on this. I'm not sure at this point what I would say to it. DGG ( talk ) 00:01, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
• Per DGG (yes, I know he didn't articulate a bolded vote. That doesn't mean that his contribution isn't worth reading thoroughly.) Jclemens (talk) 01:53, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

• It certainly is. My immediate reaction is that while it is technically possible to rewrite most things from a neutral point of view, there comes a point where a keep !vote makes no sense, even for the most rampant inclusionist, because what you would be !voting to keep would be entirely different content with an entirely different name. Such is the case here.

  Admitting to my own bias, I must say that I do not think Wikipedia should host this content. There are places where it's appropriate to publish broadsides or polemics against major world religions, but an encyclopaedia isn't one of them. Our coverage of Muhammad needs to be very carefully balanced, such that we tell the whole truth while remaining neutral and factual. Devoting a separate list to the people Muhammad is alleged to have had killed is certainly not a necessary part of offering encyclopaedic coverage about him. And it certainly is guaranteed to cause (real or simulated) offence, attract tendentious editors like flies round a dead dog, and breed drama and contention.

  This doesn't mean we can't cover the topic. What it means is that NPOV prevents us from covering the topic as a separate standalone list and WP:UNDUE implies that the topic needs to be covered in much less depth.

  You might have been able to convince me that "overturn to smerge" would be an appropriate outcome, except for the fact that I can't see how to get to a smerge on the basis of that debate.—S Marshall T/C 11:30, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

With respect to S Marshall's thoughtful post, we are treading back into topics already discussed in the AfD, for which there was no consensus. Counterpoints to the statements above have already been made in the AfD (e.g. that the sources treat the topic in a neutral fashion, that historians accept that assassination has been an integral part of Arabian history, that Muhammad's involvement with assassination of notable individuals has been covered in depth by multiple sources, and so on). Those are all points on which there was no consensus. This discussion we're having here should be about whether the close was proper, based on that AfD discussion, not whether the close was proper based on personal perceptions about whether the topic is neutral. NPOV isn't a reason to delete, and NPOV doesn't prevent us from covering a topic that appears to be pretty well sourced. The potential to cause offense or attract drama isn't really relevant — plenty of contentious articles already exist on Wikipedia (the Muhammad article attracts offended Muslims on an almost daily basis). ~Amatulić (talk) 13:27, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

By convention, DRV does have a certain amount of latitude to re-discuss the AfD. This is particularly true in this case, where DGG's view is that the debate should be relisted to consider specific points. There's no way to discuss the whys and wherefores of that without rehashing some of the previous AfD's content.—S Marshall T/C 20:00, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

• Overturn, and re-present at AfD. Per DGG, the primary reason given for Deleting was NPOV which is not supported by the actual policy. NPOV provides grounds for rewriting and restructuring problematic articles (specifics are here), not deleting them. The secondary reason given at closure was lack of sufficient reliable sources which was strongly contested during the debate and has since been addressed by Amatulic (who provided scholarly and reliable references on the topic here). While I respect the closing admin for tackling a complex and controversial issue, it seems appropriate to bring this one back for deeper discussion. Doc Tropics 15:20, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
• Comment NPOV is policy and articles can be deleted if they are nothing but policy violations, requiring a wholesale rewrite to salvage. Instead of debating whether POV is a reason to delete an article, we should consider if the article actually was POV. ThemFromSpace 16:13, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

Comment - I agree, we absolutely "should consider if the article actually was POV", that is exactly the point of overturning the deletion decision and returning the article to AfD for further discussion. As Amatulic pointed out in the nomination, this discussion is not "AfD Round 2", but an attempt to determine if "AfD Round 2" is appropriate. Based on the evidence presented above, it does seem to be. Doc Tropics 16:23, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

• Relist, which is the opinion I came to after writing it out. Looking at S Marshall's reply to me, and Thenfromspace's comment a little above: Starting over would make sense if there were no usable fundamental structure. But at least the basic list and the references are usable. What I would like to see is a proper paragraph or two on each event, including a reference to secondary views of it from early & modern Moslem sources. In most cases, it's obvious what justification would be given, but there should still be a reference to discussions. This is beyond my ability and interests, however, and I don't really like making suggestions that some other people do a lot of work. I think the real objection to the article is that there is some reason from the general tone to think it was written with a biased intent, and this is something we should not tolerate. It may have been, and we shouldn't tolerate it--WP has in the past taken action against people writing a string of articles all having implied criticism of a particular religion. The few other articles of the original editor show no such bias, & nobody would even imagine such a thing of the ed. bringing the DelRev request. In any case, this is an article, & we can't really judge intent, and need to look only at what's actually there & what use can be made of it. DGG ( talk ) 16:44, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
• Endorse - Once the infestation of banned socks and SPAs are discarded, and the "keep i like it", "keep it is interesting" calls weighted next to nothing, the consensus to delete is rather clear. Close is within admin discretion, no wrongdoing found, and "I disagree" is not a valid DRV filing reason. Tarc (talk) 18:55, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

Some of those alleged SPAs were somewhat ambitiously tagged, and shouldn't have been tagged as such according to WP:SPATG. A couple even objected, apparently regular contributors with dynamic IPs. One could as easily discard the "delete I don't like it" arguments as well. I took all that into account prior to listing this DRV. If an alleged SPA presents a thoughtful argument more than just "me too", the argument still matters. As such, the consensus was not clear to me. I agree the close was within admin discretion, but the closing admin's rationale about NPOV wasn't policy-based, and the rationale regarding sources seemed incorrect. Disagreeing with what appears to be a faulty rationale is a perfectly valid DRV filing reason. ~Amatulić (talk) 19:42, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

• Relist/Overturn. Invalid closing rationale.--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 22:39, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
  • Because it just is? –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 02:15, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
• Endorse. Spartaz did not weigh the !votes of obvious sockpuppets/meatpuppets and other single-purpose accounts, or other invalid arguments (ie. "it is interesting," "it is true," "it would be censorship to remove it," etc.), very heavily, which is both within hir discretion as an admin and also just good policy generally. Absent those, there's a very clear consensus to delete. Moreover, even the keep !voters who attempted to make policy-based arguments nevertheless failed, by and large, even to try to address the deletion rationale. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 02:15, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
• Overturn. An article about an important subject that was probably deleted out of political correctness. Conservative Philosopher (talk) 02:45, 22 September 2011 (UTC)