Wikipedia talk:External links

MySpace, WP:EL, XLinkBot, ArbCom: Need for consistent, detailed rules

1) Since I do a fair amount of external MySpace link removal, I decided to take a stab at putting all the salient factors together in one place. That includes MySpace links where I don't make a decision at all, lacking information, or if for any other reasons I feel "uncomfortable" about judging the situation. One purpose for this is that a few editors felt they were "getting the run around", when, for clarity, I cited only part of the factors. Here is my effort: [1]. I invited a couple editors to comment, got moderately positive feedback, and was about to ask for more, here.

2) However, a couple days ago, I discovered that XLinkBot is removing *all* MySpace links added by new users and IPs (once only). [2]. I have asked for clarification, because it seemed XLinkBot is working with a different set of rules than I compiled. Especially: "If you are a 'new' editor, different rules apply to you." (I believe the XLinkBot "position" is defensible from a pragmatic point-of-view, but I'm not going to second guess now, let Dirk Beetstra explain when he's back from vacation.)

3) Today however, an angry administrator came to my page asking why I was deleting MySpace pages. Apparently they hadn't seen the recently revised MySpace footnote...so that was all smoothed out. In the process I discovered that *I* had not seen the latest version of the footnote. So I thought: no problem, I'll just go back and update my "compiled guidelines" to reflect the change. Now I'm an unhappy camper, because before the addition of this phrase to the footnote...

"more than one official website should be listed only when the additional links provide unique content and are not prominently linked from other official websites"

...I was secure in defending the removal of a particular MySpace external link. Now I'm afraid to touch them at all, because just about anybody could claim that the "Official MySpace" site has unique content beyond that of the "Official Non-MySpace" site. (A different blog, concert schedules, or background music.) I'm assuming...after all, I may have to explain an edit I made in the past at any time...that what is meant in the footnote is "unique, encyclopedic content".

4) ThemFromSpace seems to be saying something of the kind by citing ArbCom, above: [3]. But that seems to place far more emphasis on getting material from MySpace links into the Wiki article. And none on whether someone is a "new user", for example. None on some situations that I consider in my "compiled guidelines", for example, when there's an official German and an official English page for a German rock group.

It isn't feasible to give the life history of WP:EL to every angry MySpace editor coming to my page! Ok, so there are only a few. But while doing anti-vandalism patrol, the more detailed, complete and resilient our policies and practices, the easier it is to answer an editor with an element of certainty. Regards all, Piano non troppo (talk) 22:25, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

1. I like your FAQ about MySpace pages.
2. XLinkBot is just playing the odds, and we want it to keep doing that. If the page is watched, good links will be restored.
3. Updating the footnote to insist on "unique, encyclopedic content" is fine with me. At the time, my primary goal was simply to discourage idiotic muliplicity of links, like word-for-word duplications of content, and URLs whose sole content is "Click here to go to the other site." WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:56, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Hmm. Not too long ago, I have been checking XLinkBot reverts of MySpace links (see User:XLinkBot/Analysis#Official MySpace pages in external links). I checked 30 reverts, and evaluated of all of them the individual merit of the edit against WP:ELYES and WP:ELNO. XLinkBot indeed simply reverts ALL myspace links (under its rules: new editors/IPs only, only revert once, don't revert undo's, 3RR compliant, etc. etc.).

Looking at those 30 I investigated, about 11 reverts needed a closer look, 19 were absolutely NOT correct (the incorrect ones having analysis like: "'Vince Rones, random black guy' on page of school", "some link to a former band-member, not to the page of the band itself. Inappropriate place anyway, there should be a wikilink to the member, if notable enough", "a town in northeastern Italy, this is not the myspace of the town, but of an inhabitant, should be a wikilink if the inhabitant is notable enough.", "addition of other band members myspaces, not of the band (is already there)"; warning: I have been quite strict in reading WP:ELNO).

Those 11 'correct' ones were at least of the format "(subject of page).myspace.com" or similar. But if we then look further, we see formations of linkfarms, dead links, redirecting myspaces, inofficial myspaces etc. etc.

I think that only one of the edits was reasonable in the end (i.e., there was already the official page, but not too many links, and the myspace may have added to the page); the other 29 could all be questioned significantly somehow in the end.

Now indeed, there are appropriate myspace pages out there, and they can add to the page. But, and then especially by unestablished users who are, generally, unfamiliar with our policies and guidelines seem to add quite some which are indeed questionable. XLinkBot tries to be very friendly on a first revert (the first revert is NOT a warning), and generally, the bot seems quite correct.

As a side-note, I have argued that the myspace revert rule by XLinkBot could maybe be replaced by a AbuseFilter warning, that may be a better way of doing it, as there are not very often cases where the link gets actually spammed. I hope this explains. --Dirk Beetstra ^{T C} 11:18, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

Advocacy sites and charities

Have advocacy sites and charities been discusssed in the archives somewhere? I just culled a bunch from PTSD, I think they're captured generically by 10, 11 and 13 of ELNO but is it worth including something more specifically? Add one charity and inevitably every other national, regional and municipal one from across the world will jump on. WLU (t) (c) Wikipedia's rules:^simple/_complex 18:21, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

We don't link to charity sites just for the sake of getting people to donate, and haven't for years. Now there may be a page of a site that has encyclopedic information that we could link to that happens to be on a charity site, but that should be on a case by case basis. DreamGuy (talk) 17:15, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

WP:MEDMOS#External_links might be relevant: "If the disease is very rare, then a manageable set of charitable organisations may be of encyclopaedic interest" (emphasis added). WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:27, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

WP:EL restrictions trump anything some minor subset of the Manual of Style might say. Very rare or not there's no reason for it. DreamGuy (talk) 23:32, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

There's nothing in this guideline that says that every single link to any charity is always inappropriate, but my point (as I expected WLU to recognize) is that PTSD is decidedly not "very rare".

But why don't you pick one page for the conversation about why you think detailed, informative pages published by a non-profit organization are inherently inferior to similar pages published by a for-profit organization, and we'll only have it once? WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:18, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

And why don't you try to avoid putting words into my mouth to try to win a straw man argument? I never said anything about for-profit organizations. The point here is that we link to information pages, not organizations that happen to just be about the topic. Sites that exist to have people donate money are not valid links. If a nonprofit has an informative page, then we link to that page, not the home page of the charity itself. I see two people here saying such links are inappropriate, so for you to insist otherwise and then also to force a subpage of a manual of style (!) page to try to set a policy on charity links while ignoring rules and consensus here is pretty silly. We are not here to promote causes, even ones most people can agree are good ones. There is no encyclopedic purpose to link to a charity, but of course we can link to pages with encyclopedic info. DreamGuy (talk) 20:56, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Your edit changed a fairly specific list of inappropriate links to (direct quotation) "Links to charitable organisations", and you asserted (direct quotation) "A MOS subpage cannot contradict WP:EL standards". The list you edited already called for informative pages instead of front doors, already banned fundraising pages, and so forth. Your change, however, also banned informative pages if they were part of a non-profit organization's website.

Note: there are only three kinds of organizations in this universe: governments, non-profits, and for-profits. if you ban all links to non-profit organizations, that leaves only links to governmental and for-profit websites. This is highly undesirable.

You also appear to be unable to show me exactly where all "[l]inks to charitable organisations" are banned in this guideline, or any individual editor that thinks the sweeping ban you added to all links to all pages at a charitable organization's website is a good idea. WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:11, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

Easiest thing to do is avoid all of them and link to the DMOZ category; that helps avoid a growing link farm. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:27, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

True, but the best thing to do is usually to link to webpages that provide detailed, accurate information along the lines described in WP:ELYES, without first determining whether those pages are part of a charitable org's website. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:59, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

"By convention, if the article is about a company or organization, then its official website is the first link in the list."

This text does not appear on this page, but it does appear on the Wikipedia:Layout page. If it belongs anywhere it belongs here. Should we integrate it? Agradman (talk) 20:34, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

Here is some more text that I found at Wikipedia:Layout#External_links that doesn't appear here. Again, if it appears anywhere it should appear here. Agradman (talk) 22:05, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

"Links to Wikimedia sister projects other than Wiktionary and Wikisource (e.g. Commons, Wikibooks, Wikinews, Wikiquote, Wikispecies and Wikiversity) should generally appear here. External links can be in the form "Main page at Wikibooks", {{wikibooks}}, or {{wikibooks-inline}}. See Category:Interwiki link templates to check whether an inline template exists."

I don't think it needs to be stated here; Wikipedia:External links has more to do with the content of external links, rather than the formatting of external links. EVula // talk // ☯ // 22:07, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

I ask partly because I've proposed making some clarifications and deletions to Wikipedia:Layout, and the things I'm mentioning here don't really belong there either. Agradman (talk) 22:28, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

I don't happen to favor adding any of this information here, but I think the decision relatively unimportant. However, whether or not it is repeated here, the location of WP:SISTER links must stay at WP:LAYOUT because it gives information about what to do with these links in articles that have no external links section. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:47, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

Linkvio, ELNO question

A question has been raised at WP:CP about the inclusion of a specific link on Differintegral. Pending clarification of the issue, I have removed it. (See [4]) and opened a discussion at the talk page. Input on the issue would be appreciated, since currently there is dispute among several editors to the article as to whether the link is in violation of copyright. --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 18:21, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

I responded there... you say there's a dispute among several editors: where? Just on the editing of the page, or is it discussed on any talk page anywhere? I'd like to see what on earth kind of argument would be made to try to justify it, as it seems to be very clear cut from what I see. DreamGuy (talk) 21:05, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. The editors are the tagger and the restorer, who have gone back and forth in placing & removing. Sorry I didn't give very much information on it. I was kind of racing through the little backlog at CP. :) The CP listing said, "Strange case: one editor is insistently re-inserting a link to a scanned source hosted by an obscure Russian site." The original contributor said, "as I know links to Google Books are allowed where books are also scanned and also not in PD. This is the same case: domain belongs to a book search system poiskknig.ru, similar to google books" I tried to review the source myself, but couldn't. --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 21:25, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Enumerating list of sites under Iran election DDOS

Some folks have been trying to list the Iraqi government websites which are being DDOS'd by Mousavi supporters in the Iranian election protest article, as discussed by their original contributor here. So far I have been removing them for violating WP:NOTLINK, but other than that is there any other particular policy that covers whether or not we should be listing these sites? Thank you. --Aeon17x (talk) 15:29, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

How about the general principle of being nice to the people we're linking to? If you've got a distributed denial of service attack, then providing the opportunity to "click here to add to the attack manually" is not very nice. A connection started by a person that is just curious takes exactly the same number of server resources as a connection started by a person that is malicious. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:54, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

I've cleaned up the list a bit, labeled sites that need labels, and removed some of the more obviously inappropriate links. I'm not convinced that the campaign websites should be included, but presumably they're being considered "official websites" for the protest itself, instead of just for the campaign? WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:13, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

I'm not quite sure either, they're in Persian. Although I suppose since the election is still being contested, the campaign websites would detail why their candidate are the true winners and why the protesters should keep supporting them. Probably. --Aeon17x (talk) 00:08, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

The last one is labeled as being the purported winner's protest coordination site; presumably the others have some similar content. If you get curious enough, you could always leave a note on the article's talk page, and see whether anyone can justify their inclusion. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:54, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

Removal of link mandated by EL guide

Resolved

 – Question asked and answered unanimously. [ Posted by DreamGuy 17:03, 22 June 2009 ] Resolution disputed per WP:BURO (see below). Milo 05:34, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

Per the following guide, can I get some consensus and help in getting a long-standing and mandated external link restored?

WP:EL#What should be linked: "Wikipedia articles about any organization, person, web site, or other entity should link to the subject's official site, if any." [emphasis added]

The late academic and clinical research endocrinologist, Broda Barnes, MD,PhD, (1904-1988) created a medical research foundation with his name. Its website has been externally linked in the Broda Otto Barnes article since April, 2008, about a month after creation.[5]

== External links ==

* [http://www.brodabarnes.org/ Broda O. Barnes M.D., Research Foundation Inc.]

Barnes' foundation link has been removed with the following edit-summary debate:

(diff) 17:58, 19 June 2009 Ronz (?External links: promotional, off-topic)

(diff) 20:20, 19 June 2009 Milomedes (?External links: rv - WP:EL#What should be linked "Wikipedia articles about any organization, person, web site, or other entity should link to the subject's official site, if any.")

(diff) 20:39, 19 June 2009 Verbal (Reverted to revision 297397947 by Ronz; that website isn't about the person. (TW))[6],

The first passing editor perhaps wasn't aware of the above EL guide.

The article was previously much longer.[7] The second regular editor has opportunistically made an excuse for another piecewise deletion in a POV stub-and-AfD campaign (see the AfD for a description of that too-frequent anti-project tactic). Milo 07:17, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

Doesnt appear to be the official website of the subject but of a foundation, I would suggest it is not covered by the should link to the subject's official site guideline. MilborneOne (talk) 07:32, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

Self-named foundations are of course official entities of many wealthy and professional persons, for reasons of taxes during life, and/or to project their social influence in life and beyond death, as was Dr. Barnes' intent.

But just in case, I've helpfully compiled a deletable-on-sight list of foundation external links, based on your "not covered" suggestion:

• Bill Clinton#External links - William J. Clinton Foundation
• Bill Gates#External links - Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation
• Magic Johnson#External links - Magic Johnson Foundation
• Bruce Lee#External links - Bruce Lee Foundation
• John D. MacArthur#External links - MacArthur Foundation website
• Alfred P. Sloan#External links - Alfred P. Sloan Foundation...
• George Soros#External links - Open Society Institute and Soros Foundations Network

I think someone should inform regular editors of these rich, powerful, and famous person articles, that you categorically accept drive-by takedowns of their foundation links. Milo 10:06, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

Just to make it clear I suggested the link wasnt covered by the should link to the subject's official site guideline that doesnt mean that the link to a related foundation can not be added by consensus. As it has been contested in the Broda Otto Barnes article it should go to the talk page to gain that consensus. MilborneOne (talk) 11:19, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

I agree... it's not covered by the official site clause but could be included anyway as a valuable link if editors agree. DreamGuy (talk) 15:00, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

I also believe that this is not the individual's own official website, and that the fact that the link is not "required" under WP:ELYES #1 doesn't tell you anything about whether it is "permitted" under the rest of the guideline. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:16, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

←This isn't about consensus links, it's about an apparent change to the "official site" link guide.
Dr. Barnes created his self-named foundation, and subsequently died in 1988. The World Wide Web was created in 1989. His foundation created a web site some time after that.
Sounds like you're making new sub-guide(s) that:

(1) Dead people can't have a WP official site, meaning that WP official sites cease to be WP official the instant a person dies; or

(2) people who died before 1989 can't have a WP official web site; or

(3) people who die before they create a WP official web site can never have one; or

(4) people who create organizations named after themselves, but don't request that their organization create a web site before they die, can never have a WP official web site, or

(5) people who create organizations named after themselves cannot have an official web site in the name of that self-named organization – so even if they requested that an organizational WP official web site be created, they can't have one; or

(6) other kinds of self-named organizations are ok to create official web sites, just not foundations, or

(7) no one can have a WP official site unless stamped with the official-site-proving words "OFFICIAL SITE OF (name)"; or

(8) some bureaucratic combination of the above, or others I haven't thought of.

Please clarify which ones caused Dr. Barnes and his foundation to lose their official web site link. Milo 18:55, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

I am sorry you did not get the answer you expected but the site belongs to the Broda O. Barnes, M.D. Research Foundation, Inc. not the individual. Suggest you just add an explanation why you think the link adds value to the article and if nobody objects then you can then add it. MilborneOne (talk) 20:18, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

An objection has already been made as posted above, and it's not going to change. That makes it necessary to review what rights-like expectations a minority-viewpoint subject has, to limit censorship by POV stubbing. Milo 12:23, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

When proposing a link under WP:ELYES #1 in a biography, you have to present some compelling reason to believe that the site is actually an official website for the individual person. For example, Steve Jobs is the CEO of Apple, Inc, and Wikipedia has an article on Jobs. It would be understating things to say that Jobs is "extremely important" to Apple's past, present and future. However, the biographical article about him does not include an "official website link" to apple.com, because Jobs is not Apple (even if some investors think that Apple is Jobs).

Similarly: Barnes is not the foundation he formed. If the foundation has its own article, then the article about the foundation gets an "official website link". If he (or his estate) created a website about himself, then that could be linked as the "official website" for Barnes (but not as an "official website" for an article about his foundation). To address your numbered objections:

1-4: Dead people can have official websites listed on Wikipedia if the websites were created (A) by the deceased person (and still exists) or (B) by their estates (the legal entity able to act officially on behalf of the deceased individuals).

5: The official website for an organization is not the official website for an individual involved in the organization. (We exclude here the case of an "organization" that amounts to the single individual, e.g., a small business that is technically a corporation, but the only person associated with it is the individual in question; many celebrities have incorporated their "businesses". In this situation, such a website could be justified as an official website for both [there being no material difference between the "person" and the "organization" for our purposes], but is irrelevant to the instant case.)

6: This rule applies to all organizations' websites.

7: We're looking for common sense, not mindless bureaucracy.

8: The "rule" missing from your list is the only relevant one: Barnes is a person. Barnes is not the organization he founded. The official website for the organization is not a website for the human individual. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:26, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

Dead people can have official sites. Whoever has the electronic media rights to his name can have an official site. Looking around the site, I can't find the claim that the Foundation has such rights -- whether it is true or not even, the claim should be there before it can be called an official site. This website may in fact be his official site, but there is no way for us to tell that currently. 2005 (talk) 22:47, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

What you see is what you get. He created a self-named private foundation to carry on his work in his name, so of course they have the rights. That's what he wanted them to do, and they did it. Milo 12:23, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

We don't deal with assumptions like that. They don't even claim the rights on the site. It seems like an okay link, but there is zero evidence that they are an official site, even if they in fact are. 2005 (talk) 23:57, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

"They don't even claim the rights on the site." No such guiderule requires it, legally there's no need for it, and without such a rule Wikipedia editors should, inclusively, accept off-wiki sites as "official" by the way they are accepted off-wiki. As a practical matter, the link has been up for over a year with no problem.

"there is zero evidence" I already presented two pieces of evidence below, but I suppose you are referring to an "OFFICIAL SITE OF (name)" type statement in #7 above. For #7, WhatamIdoing already pointed out above, that kind of formal evidence is not necessary under WP:BURO. If you don't accept WP:BURO policy, why are you editing at this project?

I don't understand what your concern is. What the worst that could happen, that isn't likely enough to happen in a year? That hoards of dead doctors' foundations will jam the servers? _(nah) That you might not be able to force opportunistic band members and COI business owners to submit to unwritten rules? _(hmm...)

You were on the other side the last time this issue came up. To quote you to yourself: "Wikipedia_talk:External_links/Archive_9#Official MySpace pages User:2005:

"Why would we care where somebody has their official presence? What we care about is that the article subject meets WP:CORP or WP:WEB or whatever to merit an article. If Einstein wants his official site to be a My Space page, then he does."

Barnes (a contemporary of Einstein), wanted his Barnes foundation to make such decisions, and so they did. Milo 10:07, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

←WhatamIdoing (20:26): "1-4:...5:...6:...7:...8:" Very helpful, thank you. The issues seem to be some combination of #1-4, #5, and #7.
Despite your #7 endorsement of WP not a bureaucracy, that is exactly the problem here. The root word of "official" is "office", a residence for a bureaucrat. In particular, I observe an attempt to apply bright-line rules instead of a balancing test to an "official site" issue that is fuzzy across all the different kinds of entities that have articles.

Rightly understood as a cultural phenomenon, an "official web site" is one that is endorsed by the subject. Whether they own or control it is secondary; perhaps those are useful tests in the case of need to choose among multiple official sites. Endorsement means some form of 'I approve of this message' ranging on a continuum: from direct → to implied → to inferred → to speculative in the absence of denunciation.

• Endorsement is usually easy to decide in the case of a living person. Living people who don't either endorse or denounce are likely to have "official fan sites", because the living person just shrugged or said "Whatever", when asked for an endorsement.
• Estates of dead people can officially endorse things with effort, but fan sites of the deceased may easily become semiofficial if the estate, living family, or posthumous agent doesn't denounce the sites.
• Dead people also may have made endorsements while they were alive, and they may have endorsed endorsers, such as foundations and agents, who may continue to represent them beyond life.
• Persons deceased for too long to have estates, may have fans or living relatives who claim to know what the deceased would have officially endorsed.
• Dead poets endorse from within living poets.
• A few ancient deceased persons have priests of religion to endorse in their name.
• The rest of the notables and the known ancients have academics, God bless them.

"Barnes is a person. Barnes is not the organization he founded. The official website for the organization is not a website for the human individual." That's an irrelevant dichotomy for Barnes. A WP:EL demand for one doctor (dead before the web was invented), and his small private foundation (actively operated by two people), to have two separate official web sites is bureaucratically absurd. Having explained why, I invoke WP:IAR!

"When proposing a link under WP:ELYES #1 in a biography, you have to present some compelling reason to believe that the site is actually an official website for the individual person." "Actually" is overly bureaucratic, but if read "endorsed as" the request is reasonable.

Reason 1: Dr. Barnes endorsed an endorser, his self-named private foundation, to endorse further research and education on behalf of himself after his death in 1988. One of several educational methods they endorsed for him (including books, videos, seminars) was a web site. That makes it an official web site of Dr. Barnes.

Reason 2: Activist patients and Barnes-method supporting doctors consider the foundation to be Dr. Barnes' official site. For example:

"Although Broda Barnes has since passed away, his work lives [o]n at the Broda Barnes Institute. .... Broda O. Barnes, M.D. Research Foundation, Inc." —Jeffrey Dach, MD, 2009-05-15 [8]

Milo 12:23, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

Milo, I'm sorry that you don't like the answer you were given. Your unhappiness does not, and will not, change the answer.

Note that I would support inclusion of the website in that article for other reasons -- simply not as an "official website". WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:13, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

"Your unhappiness does not, and will not, change the answer." I don't recall making reference to it, but I agree that my happiness is, and should be, irrelevant. Back to the relevant debate.

What should change the answer, but didn't, is the valid points of the debate. You all have lost this debate on points, since I have countered all of your points, and you have been unable to (or chosen not to) rebut my counter points.

What appears to be your debate closure is a variant of because we said so. That is a merely majoritarian power position, because it lacks the required logic for governance of Wikipedia by consensus of "the good answer".

Good answers must not only be reasonable by valid points of debate, but must also be compliant with policy. Consensus may not override policy.

The majoritarian position here is to deny Dr. Barnes recognition of an official site that the off-wiki community accepts – based on WP:EL editors' unwritten bright-line rules, pidgeon-hole categories, and Procrustean bed judgments _(eew) for all types and sizes of "official site" entities from Microsoft to barely notables. This majoritarian position is in clear policy violation of Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not#Wikipedia is not a bureaucracy (WP:BURO).

Don't misunderstand me, this isn't anything personal. If bad-answer majority rule was the governing policy at Wikipedia, I would accept it. It isn't, so I won't.

"I would support inclusion of the website in that article" Thank you for that support. It is an obvious link to include – outside of a stub-and-AfD WP:GAME. It is because of this game that unbureaucratic access to an uncensored "official site" has turned out to be important.

On the other hand, if that external link is returned to the article and sticks through tendentious attempts to keep it out (to do that I think it will require at least three active editors in article edit and talk), then there's no pressing need to decide the WP:BURO issue at WP:EL. Milo 10:07, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

You just seemed really confused by a simple concept. My position certainly has not changed. There is zero evidence this is an official site. Your opinion is not evidence, even if you keep stating it. 2005 (talk) 22:35, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

There already is no pressing need to continue this discussion here, as the advice you sought here has been unanimous. You choosing to ignore it and trying to filibuster until you get what you want isn't of any use to this talk page. Demanding that you get the link you want or else you'll continue to post here is, quite frankly, a major WP:POINT violation that, should it continue, could result in a block. The bottom line here is that we do work by WP:CONSENSUS, regardless of whether you think it's bad or not. It is, in fact, policy here, so you have no choice but to accept it. DreamGuy (talk) 16:53, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

DreamGuy (16:53): "WP:CONSENSUS, regardless of whether you think it's bad or not. It is, in fact, policy here, so you have no choice but to accept it."

WP:Consensus#Exceptions reads otherwise: "Consensus decisions in specific cases do not automatically override consensus on a wider scale – for instance, a local debate on a WikiProject does not override the larger consensus behind a policy or guideline." Likewise, guideline consensus debate at WPTalk:EL does not override the larger consensus behind a policy such as WP:BURO. So, to the extent that the WPTalk:EL consensus debate violates WP:BURO, no, I don't have to accept it. (←reset)

←Edit summary:
(diff) 16:53, 22 June 2009 DreamGuy ... (?Removal of link mandated by EL guide: this is becoming disruptive, especially with claim that CONSENSUS isn't policy and that he'll continue posting until he gets what he wants)

1. DreamGuy (16:53 edit summary) "...becoming disruptive, especially with claim that CONSENSUS isn't policy..."

• I didn't claim that.
  

2. DreamGuy (16:53 edit summary) "...claim ... that he'll continue posting until he gets what he wants"

• I didn't claim that either.
  

3. DreamGuy (16:53 post body) "Demanding that you get the link you want or else you'll continue to post here is ... a major WP:POINT violation..."

• I didn't make that demand.

All three DreamGuy (16:53) statements are misrepresentations per Wikipedia:Talk#Behavior that is unacceptable: "Do not misrepresent other people".

In addition, two are accusatory ("becoming disruptive" and "major WP:POINT violation"), so they are personal attacks by accusations lacking evidence – per Wikipedia:NPA#What is considered to be a personal attack?: "Accusations about personal behavior that lack evidence."

I've had to spend too much time today working on DreamGuy's ill-considered accusations instead of on the debate issues. So, it doesn't surprise me that DreamGuy was blocked for talk page disruption as recently as 23:11, 6 March 2009.[9] (and is currently under a 1RR editing restriction[10].)

Under the terms of Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/DreamGuy 2#DreamGuy restricted:

"DreamGuy (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is subject to a behavioral editing restriction. If he makes any edits which are judged by an administrator to be uncivil, personal attacks, or assumptions of bad faith, he may be blocked for the duration specified in the enforcement ruling below. ...¶... Passed 4-0 at 17:14, 16 October 2007 (UTC)"

I'm going to be a nice guy and first request a retraction.

DreamGuy, please strike the DreamGuy (16:53) sentence: "Demanding..." through "...block", and in the edit summary of the striking post write,

16:53, 22 JUNE 2009 EDIT SUMMARY RETRACTED: "...<s>becoming disruptive, especially with claim that CONSENSUS isn't policy and that he'll continue posting until he gets what he wants</s>

If the edit summary doesn't accept striketype, everyone will know what the wikitext strike symbols mean. (N.B. It's really unwise to write accusations into edit summaries. If you get it wrong, it causes admins to think about longer blocks to prevent future extra work if someone has to delete them.)

An apology would be nice, but optional.

However, if the strike and retraction don't happen, I'll feel free to go looking for an admin to investigate your statements for possible violation of your Arbcom behavioral editing restriction. Milo 05:34, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

Debate of "official site" Reasons 1 and 2

User:2005 (22:35): "Your opinion is not evidence" How does the community know that, if you and others here refuse or ignore the Wikipedia requirement to debate in good faith, the points which I have asserted to be evidence?

I presented two pieces of envidence in Milo (12:23), and WhatamIdoing did not rebut them in WhatamIdoing (04:13). In Milo (10:07), I informed you (User:2005) that I had presented the two pieces of evidence "below" (in Milo 12:23), but you also did not rebut them in your next post User:2005 (22:35).

Tendentious refusal to debate points by ignoring them is a violation of WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT. But maybe you just didn't notice them, so here is your chance to actually address and debate my two pieces of evidence, point by point:

(convenience copied from Milo 12:23):

[WhatamIdoing 20:26] "When proposing a link under WP:ELYES #1 in a biography, you have to present some compelling reason to believe that the site is actually an official website for the individual person." "Actually" is overly bureaucratic, but if read "endorsed as" the request is reasonable.

Reason 1: Dr. Barnes endorsed an endorser, his self-named private foundation, to endorse further research and education on behalf of himself after his death in 1988. One of several educational methods they endorsed for him (including books, videos, seminars) was a web site. That makes it an official web site of Dr. Barnes.

Reason 2: Activist patients and Barnes-method supporting doctors consider the foundation to be Dr. Barnes' official site. For example:

"Although Broda Barnes has since passed away, his work lives [o]n at the Broda Barnes Institute. .... Broda O. Barnes, M.D. Research Foundation, Inc." —Jeffrey Dach, MD, 2009-05-15 [11]

Milo 05:34, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

The website is clearly the official site of the FOUNDATION and not the INDIVIDUAL, no matter that the foundation seeks to carry on the individual's work.-- The Red Pen of Doom 06:29, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

Yes, that's the hard line literal position. But why? What harm would come to WP from respecting Dr. Barnes' wishes for his foundation to officially represent his life's work, and what the public accepts as his official site? If no harm, wouldn't allowing the foundation to be his official site be more neutral toward him, and make Wikipedia look better off-wiki? That's where the donations come from y'know. Milo 08:41, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

I think I'm finished with this conversation. We were asked a question, and we answered it. The editor did not like the answer. We have discussed this at length and are at an impasse. I don't wish to speak for anyone else, but my answer on this point simply won't change, and I have no reason to believe that the editor's unhappiness with the answer will change, so IMO further conversation seems to be well beyond "pointless" and verging on tendentious and disruptive.

I'd like to suggest to other editors that they individually consider whether this conversation continues to be a reasonable use of their time and energy, and then to make choices about their participation that they personally think are best (whether or not their choices look like mine). WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:09, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

Wikis are more reliable/special than other websites?

Why do Wikis (not just Wikia wikis) get formatted as a This instead of This?--Otterathome (talk) 17:48, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

In the article text, or under ==External links==? Can you give me an example in a regular article? WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:50, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Under external links, rarely in the article text. See Template:Wikia.--Otterathome (talk) 19:08, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

I'm having trouble following this. Please provide concrete and clear examples -- like link to an EL section of a site with wiki links and normal links and briefly explain the difference so we can go check. Wikis shouldn't be treated as more special, but I want to see what you mean. DreamGuy (talk) 19:16, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Those links are on the interwiki map. See Help:Interwiki linking. - MrOllie (talk) 19:21, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

The interwiki map is at Meta, and we don't control it. The Help: namespace is not an article, and therefore WP:EL does not apply to it.

Are you talking about things like Jim_Henson#External_links, which until a minute ago listed:

• Muppet Wiki: Jim Henson

(It also used the Template:Muppets to direct readers to that wiki; I've removed the redundancy.)

I don't know why editors have chosen that format in this context. This discussion at the WIkia template suggests that some of them are determined to defend the formatting choice. The format would probably have to be changed globally, which would result in sister links (e.g., Wiktionary) also appearing like regular external links.

In any given article, you can change the formatting by replacing the template with a proper URL. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:01, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Why we link official websites - proposal

#What should be linked currently reads: Wikipedia articles about any organization, person, web site, or other entity should link to the subject's official site, if any. • "We get a lot of questions about official websites (usually about multiple websites and MySpace links). In the interest of better explaining the issues, I'd like to propose a new section that unifies all of the "official website" stuff." —Quotation from User:WhatamIdoing, 19:47, 22 June 2009; RfC posted by Milo 08:06, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

We seem to have some confusion over the purpose of links to official websites. The usual thought is that it's a handy web directory service for readers -- but Wikipedia is WP:NOTDIRECTORY. The second thought is that it's a reasonable resource for further information -- but such a website would be trivially justifiable under the rest of the guideline, and thus would not require a sweeping exemption from (nearly) all other rules (WP:ELNEVER being the only requirement).

The actual reason that official websites are given a pass on any issue that doesn't conflict with WP:ELNEVER is specifically because they are controlled by the entity in question, and by linking to their official website, we're giving the entity itself a bit of say. It's an effort at neutrality. So if we spend most of Coca-cola talking about the history of marketing campaigns, they can refocus the readers' attention on the current ones. If we write that the Church of Scientology is a bunch of nasty goons, they can say that their organization is all sweetness and light.

The reason that we don't accept websites not under the control of the relevant entity (for example, a fan site) under this specific line is because they're not controlled by the entity. WorldsBestFan.org might present an excellent defense of an entity that we pan -- but it doesn't (and can't) give the entity's own response. It can only give the response of a third party. Thus such websites have to be justified under this guideline. For example, a website run by a supporter must contain more information than a perfect article would (WP:ELNO #1), not try to mislead the reader (#2), not try to install malware (#3), not primarily exist to sell things (#5), be accessible to everyone (#7), and so forth. By contrast, such violations are acceptable behaviors in official websites (although AFAIK we've never encountered #3, and it would merit at least a warning).

We get a lot of questions about official websites (usually about multiple websites and MySpace links). In the interest of better explaining the issues, I'd like to propose a new section that unifies all of the "official website" stuff. It might say something like this:

An official website is a website that is both:

1. controlled by the organization or individual person that the Wikipedia article is about and
2. about the thing that the subject of the article is notable for.

Links to official websites (if any) are provided so that the reader has the opportunity to see what the organization or person says about itself. Such links to official websites are exempt from all of this guideline except for Restrictions on linking. For example, although links to websites that require readers to register or pay to view content are normally not acceptable in the External links section, such a link may be included when it is an official website for a business.

If the subject of the article has more than one official website, then more than one link may be appropriate. However, Wikipedia does not provide a comprehensive web directory to every official website. Complete directories lead to clutter and to placing undue emphasis on what the subject says. More than one official website should be listed only when the additional links provide unique content and are not prominently linked from other official websites. For example, if the main page of the official website for an author contains a link to the author's blog and Twitter feed, then it is not appropriate to provide links to all three. Instead, provide only the main page of the official website in this situation. In other situations, it may be appropriate to provide more than one link, such as when a business has one website for the corporate headquarters and another for consumer information.

In contrast to official websites, personal websites are websites predominantly about the individual's personal life, family, and friends, and they are not included under this rule. For example, an official website for an artist will present information about the artist's work, not about the artist's grandchildren.

Links to websites that are not considered official websites may still be justifiable under other sections of this guideline, e.g., Links to consider #4.

What do you think? WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:47, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Reads OK do we need to mention Template:Official ? MilborneOne (talk) 20:22, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Need to? IMO, no. Can we? Sure, if you want. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:14, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

I have posted this proposal to an RfC.
Thanks to WhatamIdoing for making this proposal. Even if we don't agree on the details, any proposal for discussion helps address my concern about the many unwritten "official site" practices at WPTalk:EL. Milo 08:06, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

Debate of official websites link proposal

• 1."controlled by the organization or individual person" "Endorsed by" is better than "controlled by", because for example, a political prisoner may not be allowed to own or control a web site. Young musicians may not want to spend time or money controlling a web site, but they expect their friends to promote them with their endorsement.

Famous dead people may have "official" web sites as endorsed by businesses that the dead founded long before the web existed, or "officially" endorsed by societies, governments, academia, and even opinionated individuals, none of whom the dead control. Families can have official web sites for their famous dead with no "official" estate approval, so the dead may not technically control them either.

Then there are the variety of arrangements that the dead did make before death with friends, lovers (poets), publishing companies, agents, private foundations, public foundations, even corporations the dead may have founded. The dead may never have heard of web sites or even computers, but many understood publicity and expected it to be handled in their long term interests by arrangements they trusted (such as disciples in ancient times). These arrangements may not technically be "control", but if the dead endorsed these arrangements, the arrangements should be respected as "official" in the absence of challenge by persons with legal standing such as lineal family. Milo 08:22, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

(Numbered portions 1.A&B copied from WhatamIdoing 17:56):

• 1. A. "Controlled" is deliberate. An author might "endorse" a fansite. A business might "endorse" an affiliate. These are not "official websites" for Wikipedia's purposes. "Control" does not imply "sits at the computer and types the HTML code". "Control" means "if something's on this website, and I don't like it, I can have it removed." Prisoners, bands, and businesses all have "control" of their official websites: if someone complains to them about its content, they can tell their "publicity department" to fix it. By contrast, they don't have control over unofficial websites, or websites that they've merely "endorsed", and if a previously dedicated fan decides to smear them, then there's legally nothing they can do about it. Additionally, "endorsement" leads to confusion with product endorsement, and we don't want anyone to think that, for example, www.nike.com is an "official website" for any of their (many) spokespersons.
  B. Dead people can have a website. When you die, you do not legally cease to exist. Your estate is able to act legally on your behalf. Commonly, it pays your bills and disposes of property, but it can do anything that a live human could do, including start a website. If the estate controls the website, then it's an official website. As a result, "official websites" exist for hundreds of dead people. [WhatamIdoing 17:56] (Portions 1.A&B copy posted by Milo 08:52, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

• 2. "about the thing that the subject of the article is notable for" This requirement means editors must periodically police hundreds of thousands of official web sites to make sure they haven't gotten off topic. What's the point of this? If it's endorsed by the subject, why should Wikipedia try to impose any off-wiki censorship that has no compelling purpose and will inevitably be abused? Milo 08:22, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

(Numbered portion 2. copied from WhatamIdoing 17:56):

• 2. On topic. We have to periodically police websites anyway; businesses change their names and drop their websites all the time. The point here is that notable people might have strictly personal websites, and that these are not appropriate links. Our links serve our readers, and if you're notable for, say, filing lawsuits about free speech, then linking to your blog, which is entirely about your flower garden, is not helpful to our readers. When faced with a website that is partly on-topic, and partly off-topic, then I trust our editors' judgment. [WhatamIdoing 17:56] (Portion 2. copy posted by Milo 08:52, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

• 3. "In contrast to official websites, personal websites are websites predominantly about the individual's personal life, family, and friends," Suppose a person notable, rich, and famous for business only has one website, but it's not about his business. It's about his personal life, family, and friends -- and, oh yes, his strong and controversial opinions about politics, plus support for doubtful but popular conspiracy theories. Furthermore, he has many opponents among Wikipedia editors who refuse a consensus link to 'proven conspiratorial lies'. Oops, Wikipedia has just censored him. So he sues Wikimedia, and it costs a bunch of money that could have been spent on server hardware. Point being, why go there? What compelling reason does WP have to parse distinctions between a notable-subject web site and a personal web site, if only the latter exists? Milo 08:22, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

(Numbered portion 3. copied from WhatamIdoing 17:56):

• 3. Censorship claims. Getting a link to your personal website -- or to any website -- on Wikipedia is not a right. Declining to post a link in a BLP, especially if it's done to respect the individual's privacy, is NOT censorship. Wikipedia is not an advertising opportunity for the non-notable opinions of notable people. [WhatamIdoing 17:56] (Portion 3. copy posted by Milo 08:52, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

• 4. "such a link may be included when it is an official website for a business." Tweak the wording some? The slight implication is that a person couldn't have an official pay web site. Milo 08:22, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

(Numbered portion 4. copied from WhatamIdoing 17:56):

• 4. Examples. I've tried to use a variety of examples. This is just an example. You will notice that the sentence begins with the words "For example". I chose "business" as the example because (1) it was a broad category, (2) it was different from the other examples, and (3) it was more likely to require registration or payment than non-business websites. If you're curious, I specifically had online media sites in mind, since "register to read the articles" is not uncommon. [WhatamIdoing 17:56] (Portion 4. copy posted by Milo 08:52, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

• 5. "an official website for an artist will present information about the artist's work, not about the artist's grandchildren." Don't count on it. One of the functions of art, and the artistic personality is to defy categorization and blur boundaries. And, candidly, they enjoy making trouble for the bureaucratic class of rulecrafters like WhatamIdoing and myself. Flexibility and balancing tests are the key to avoiding this kind of trouble. Milo 08:22, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

(Numbered portion 5. copied from WhatamIdoing 17:56):

• 5. Personal websites. Again, you're picking at something that it just an easily understood example. I could have given examples of times when the personal is the official: some people are famous for how they live, and there would be no difference between the "personal" and "official" websites. Taken in context with the "on-topic" requirement, I think that the average Wikipedia editor will be able to easily apply this advice without us providing counterexamples. However, in general, websites that cover purely personal subjects are not considered "official websites" under this guideline. I doubt that anyone will have any trouble understanding the point. [WhatamIdoing 17:56] (Portion 5. copy posted by Milo 08:52, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Milo, I've numbered your question so that I can respond to your misconceptions more easily:

1. A. "Controlled" is deliberate. An author might "endorse" a fansite. A business might "endorse" an affiliate. These are not "official websites" for Wikipedia's purposes. "Control" does not imply "sits at the computer and types the HTML code". "Control" means "if something's on this website, and I don't like it, I can have it removed." Prisoners, bands, and businesses all have "control" of their official websites: if someone complains to them about its content, they can tell their "publicity department" to fix it. By contrast, they don't have control over unofficial websites, or websites that they've merely "endorsed", and if a previously dedicated fan decides to smear them, then there's legally nothing they can do about it. Additionally, "endorsement" leads to confusion with product endorsement, and we don't want anyone to think that, for example, www.nike.com is an "official website" for any of their (many) spokespersons.
   B. Dead people can have a website. When you die, you do not legally cease to exist. Your estate is able to act legally on your behalf. Commonly, it pays your bills and disposes of property, but it can do anything that a live human could do, including start a website. If the estate controls the website, then it's an official website. As a result, "official websites" exist for hundreds of dead people.
2. On topic. We have to periodically police websites anyway; businesses change their names and drop their websites all the time. The point here is that notable people might have strictly personal websites, and that these are not appropriate links. Our links serve our readers, and if you're notable for, say, filing lawsuits about free speech, then linking to your blog, which is entirely about your flower garden, is not helpful to our readers. When faced with a website that is partly on-topic, and partly off-topic, then I trust our editors' judgment.
3. Censorship claims. Getting a link to your personal website -- or to any website -- on Wikipedia is not a right. Declining to post a link in a BLP, especially if it's done to respect the individual's privacy, is NOT censorship. Wikipedia is not an advertising opportunity for the non-notable opinions of notable people.
4. Examples. I've tried to use a variety of examples. This is just an example. You will notice that the sentence begins with the words "For example". I chose "business" as the example because (1) it was a broad category, (2) it was different from the other examples, and (3) it was more likely to require registration or payment than non-business websites. If you're curious, I specifically had online media sites in mind, since "register to read the articles" is not uncommon.
5. Personal websites. Again, you're picking at something that it just an easily understood example. I could have given examples of times when the personal is the official: some people are famous for how they live, and there would be no difference between the "personal" and "official" websites. Taken in context with the "on-topic" requirement, I think that the average Wikipedia editor will be able to easily apply this advice without us providing counterexamples. However, in general, websites that cover purely personal subjects are not considered "official websites" under this guideline. I doubt that anyone will have any trouble understanding the point.

I hope that this explanation was helpful to you. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:56, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

If numbers preceding my posts are helpful to you then I'm happy to cooperate. I've restored the bullets in front of the numbers since this is an RfC and bullets are customary to flag the start of commentary threads in formal debates.

However, your ganged set of responses (WhatamIdoing 17:56) is unexpected for separately posted thread starts. It makes it very difficult to follow a debate, since readers typically have to tediously scroll up and down, or inconveniently open two browser windows, to follow the debate logic (or lack thereof) between the posts. For this reason, Wikipedia standard discussion format is threaded per WP:Talk#Layout: "Thread your post".

Therefore I've copied the appropriate portion of each of your numbered responses to its expected indented thread position under my thread-start posts. Technically long quotations within my new signed post, these copy portions are cautiously delimited with a format I've previously tested to avoid misrepresentation as to copy source and authorship. Milo 08:52, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Actually, I want you to undo that, for several reasons: It's hard to read (thus discouraging participation), I intended to respond to your objections in a block to emphasize that the concerns were (1) related to each other and (2) from a single editor, the use of bulleted lists in these discussions is not mandatory, and your specific formatting decisions violate WP:ACCESS restrictions on the formatting of lists. (A screen reader will process that as ten separate single-item lists.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:43, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

WhatamIdoing (18:43): "It's hard to read (thus discouraging participation)..." I sympathize with your threaded reading handicap – but – threaded posting is easier for most people, which is why it's standard at WP:Talk#Layout. Fortunately, you have been able to post in threads every place I've checked, so your personal problem must be must be inconvenient yet manageable.

"...respond to your objections in a block to emphasize that the concerns were (1) related to each other..." Since you answered them in separate paragraphs without a holistic connection, your emphasis violated WP:Talk#Layout for the sake of an empty gesture of style.

"...respond to your objections in a block to emphasize that the concerns were ... (2) from a single editor..." There's no need to violate WP:Talk#Layout to emphasize what is already quite obvious from my signature.

"the use of bulleted lists in these discussions is not mandatory" Straw man. I wrote (Milo 08:52) "... this is an RfC and bullets are customary ... in formal debates". WP:Talk#Layout: "Thread your post": "...bullet points (... are commonly used at AfD, CfD, etc.)"

"your specific formatting decisions violate WP:ACCESS restrictions on the formatting of lists." WP:ACCESS only applies to articles (and is incompatible with talk pages). Since you are an editor there, you should have known that.

Also, I did you the courtesy of allowing numbering of my separate posts into a pseudo list (they are functionally reference numbers), and you have the nerve to complain that my subsequent threading of my posts in the standard way violates (inapplicable) list rules. (tsk, tsk)

"A screen reader will process that as ten separate single-item lists." Probably not. That problem also shows up in regular wikitext, and I recoded to prevent it. Milo 08:16, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

This whole section is unreadable. If someone has a proposal please restate it so comments can be made conventionally. 2005 (talk) 09:31, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

From the parts I could follow I'd recommend he not bother, as I see no need to change WP:EL to solve nonexistent problems. DreamGuy (talk) 15:29, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

Please look for the block quote introduced with the words, "We get a lot of questions about official websites (usually about multiple websites and MySpace links). In the interest of better explaining the issues, I'd like to propose a new section that unifies all of the "official website" stuff. It might say something like this:" This is ABOVE the "Debate" subheader that Milo added, which in turn is above the (IMO) "unreadable" section that Milo formatted.

As for this proposal addressing 'nonexistent problems', please see the long argument we just had with Milo on this very point, and just about every reference to MySpace in the archives. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:23, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

IMNSHO, from the conversation above Milo's problem isn't that WP:EL needs to be changed, it's that he refuses to agree with it. DreamGuy (talk) 20:38, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

What about his proposal directly conflicts with what is already stated in WP:EL? What do you feel he "refuses to agree with"? WhisperToMe (talk) 20:34, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

I think you've confused my proposal with Milo's opposition to it. Milo is unhappy that "official website" is defined too narrowly for Milo's goals with the article about Broda Otto Barnes. I interpret DreamGuy's response as suggesting that my proposal is simply unnecessary. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:08, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

WP:EL and the official Shonen Jump Myspace page

Okay, a user and I disagree over whether the official Myspace page of Shonen Jump (magazine) should be listed alongside the main official website of the Shonen Jump. I argued that the official Myspace contains dates in which staff members will appear at conventions. As part of my argument, I stated that this information would not be appropriate in the Wikipedia article, but it would be of interest to people who are interested in the subject, so as per Wikipedia:EL#What_should_be_linked criteria regarding official websites and the "Sites that contain neutral and accurate material that cannot be integrated into the Wikipedia article due to copyright issues, amount of detail (such as professional athlete statistics, movie or television credits, interview transcripts, or online textbooks)" criteria the official should be allowed. In addition as per WP:NOT its "linkfarm" policy warns specifically against having too large of an external links section; with the official main site and the Myspace site there would be two total sites in the external links section. Collectionian feels that the information in the Myspace, including the convention information is too trivial for listing as an external link, and therefore it should not be listed. Please see: User_talk:Collectonian#Official_myspaces_are_okay_to_link - This is the Myspace account in question: http://www.myspace.com/shonenjump - It is an account controlled by Shonen Jump/VIZ, so it is not affected by "links normally to be avoided." - It contains times at when SJ staff members will appear at conventions, information regarding promotions involving the magazine itself, photographs of magazine covers and logos (Pictures section), and the usual user comments. WhisperToMe (talk) 19:31, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

Refering to an above conversation, which may or may not be applicable here - but might because it also deals with the removal of MySpace links - is the EL policy line of more than one official website should be listed only when the additional links provide unique content and are not prominently linked from other official websites. Applying this guideline to your specific example is difficult. The information you are presenting as being of interest to the casual reader (the convention date appearances) is not only non-encyclopedic, but the MySpace page itself doesn't appear to be linked from the organizations' official site by itself... which brings up the question of how authoritative on the subject is the MySpace page vs the primary site. Looking into the future, do we also link the organization's Twitter feed, RSS panel, Facebook profile, Facebook fan page, home address, LinkedIn profile, DIGG account, or other similarly "official" pages as well? Where is the line drawn when dealing with info that is of questionable value for encyclopedic inclusion vs just linking to the org's main page and being done with it? <joke>Besides, who uses MySpace anymore anyway? </joke> SpikeJones (talk) 19:49, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

The Myspace page is linked from a news release on the organization's website: http://shonenjump.viz.com/news/newsroom/index.php?id=83 - Using a Google site search I cannot find any other links to this website on shonenjump.viz.com - To access this one would have to first go to the Newsroom section of shonenjump.viz.com and select the link - There is no centralized "Links" page where all official pages are posted. Even though the SJ Myspace is linked on the website, the website's organization does not allow an average user to easily find the MySpace link, as it is only linked through a press release.

I agree that the convention dates would be non-encyclopedic; I feel it would be under the "amount of detail" criterion for inclusion of an external link (examples given for this on WP:EL are "professional athlete statistics, movie or television credits, interview transcripts, or online textbooks") - In other words external links can be used to link to information that is not suitable to include on Wikipedia.

If a given subject has so many social networking sites/links that WP:NOT link farm begins to become an issue, one could reduce the amount of links by linking to a central page on the subject's website that lists all of the official social networking pages.

WhisperToMe (talk) 19:55, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

• If their official website links to the myspace page, then it should be considered like any other webpage would be. It has information the main one does not, and thus a reason to link to it. Dream Focus 00:17, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

Well, that's silly. What is someone's official page linked to that infamous goats# website? We wouldn't want to include just any page that the official website linked to. Funny aside, the above user stated that he had trouble even finding the MySpace link on the official website, having to dig into a press release archive to do so. Doesn't sound as if the MySpace page plays a significant enough role to warrant qualifying as a notable entry. That turns the inclusion/exclusion into a mere judgement call that can turn into a revert war. Hence the conversation here. SpikeJones (talk) 00:47, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

Regarding the example, I think he meant if the main official website linked to another official website of the same subject - I don't think too many credible business operators have co-official goatse mirrors floating around :) WhisperToMe (talk) 00:50, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

Really, ff their official website links to it, then there is no reason to repeat the link here because its already linked to from the official site. We aren't here to repeat their navigation. -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 01:01, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

While it is linked from the official website, it isn't linked in a manner in which one could obviously find it; one has to go to a specific press release of the news section, which is not where one would go to find related links. I needed to use Google Site Search in order to find where the Myspace was linked; Google site search pointed exactly where the word "Myspace" was mentioned on shonenjump.viz.com. If shonenjump.viz.com had a "Links" section in which all of the related links were posted, a casual user could easily find a Myspace link. WhisperToMe (talk) 01:06, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

Here are the relevant issues, IMO:

• Because the MySpace page is NOT prominently linked on the main official website, it could be linked under the "multiple official websites" rule.
• Just because you can link more than one official website doesn't mean that you should link more than one official website.
• Therefore the extra link is neither prohibited nor required.

Personally, I'd skip it, since I think that the calendar is not encyclopedic in nature, but -- much more importantly -- I think that the editors in question need to pursue standard dispute resolution methods, beginning with an end to edit warring and an acknowledgment by all parties that neither the inclusion nor the exclusion of the link would violate this guideline. It's time to WP:Use common sense and develop WP:Consensus. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:00, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

As a minor note, there was no edit warring. She added, I removed, she followed BRD and began a discussion. :) -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 02:02, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

While I am a male, Collectionian was correct in stating that there was no edit warring. :) WhisperToMe (talk) 02:26, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

gomen - I was almost expecting that to happen. *doh* -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 02:45, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

Anyhow, I'm going to go on a trip, so (effective by 6:30 AM Central U.S. Time on June 27, 2009) I will be unable to edit for a few days... When I am back I will resume posting here. WhisperToMe (talk) 02:52, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

• Both websites look quite different. Since it has been determined that both are maintained by the magazine, why not link to both of them? The information is presented differently, and there is some valid information found on the myspace page that isn't found on the main website. Dream Focus 03:12, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

If the article isn't overburdened with links (and this one isn't), what reason is there to not include a useful external link? And if none, default to include until external links become excessive in number. ("Useful" is determined from the viewpoint of the fan, not the editor.^†)

On the issue of whether the MySpace page is an official SHONEN JUMP page: "Welcome to the SHONEN JUMP MySpace page!": "Just remember, by signing up to be a SHONEN JUMP friend on MySpace, you are agreeing to have your pictures, comments and/or profiles appear in SHONEN JUMP magazine." Taking this disclaimer at face value, the connection to the magazine is official. That means that SHONEN JUMP has multiple official web sites.

On the issue of accessibility of the MySpace link at the main official site. It's really hard to find, including being buried two identical news index pages deep. There doesn't even seem to be an indirect link to the news index page on the front page. (From the magazine's point of view, they probably focus on driving traffic toward the main site where their money is made.) This inconveniently organized main site navigation is a valid reason to link to an additional official web site at the article, for the convenience of the serious fan.

On the issue of "meaningful, relevant content". From the reader's viewpoint, the MySpace page handles discussion and information useful to serious fans such as convention dates, fan special discounts, free premiums, and other promotions. I've spent time as a serious comic fan, carefully analyzing letter-to-the-editor replies for clues to canonical continuity and backstory details. Such fans would find this 'convenienced' link useful.

On the slippery slope issue. Slippery slopes with little editing effort downside like link sets can be dealt with after they slip. If a popular commercial web site has a badly organized set of useful links, personally I don't see a problem if Wikipedia organizes that information for the readers.

^†I don't know the views of the individual editors here. I do know that in general there is a huge conflict between Britannica-ists and Popular-ists over the subject of fiction at Wikipedia. The 'B's tend to be older, more academic, and think popular fiction should be abbreviated, discouraged, and deleted if possible. The 'P's tend to be younger and want as much detail as possible included about the universe of every fictional character. This conflict is serious enough that I suggest that all fiction be moved to a separate namespace or project, or at least all fiction before a certain date, say the 1922 public domain date, or one of the other major copyright act dates.
Milo 06:49, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

I must add that the "fan" and the "editor" in Wikipedia's case likely are the same person. WhisperToMe (talk) 05:07, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

How is a social network "meaningful, relevant content" to the majority of readers (not the handful of people who are "series fans". Wikipedia isn't a fansite nor are articles oriented towards fans. -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 15:09, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

I think you're citing an argument about article body content, not external links.

Editing external links with the intent to prevent certain readers from easily finding official "serious fan" material is a leap of Wikipedia philosophy that I suggest you should take up with Jimbo. Milo 18:26, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

There's no need for Collection to take anything up with Jimbo, as we don't generally link to fan sites, the official website was already linked to, and we don't link to a long string of (allegedly) official secondary sites because we are not a web directory. It's not an "intent" to "prevent" certain people from doing anything as much as it's just following our rules. DreamGuy (talk) 18:35, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

Since philosophy trumps rules, I stand by my suggestion. Milo 19:13, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure where you came up with that wild idea. Philosophy doesn't trump anything on Wikipedia, and especially not the rules. DreamGuy (talk) 13:49, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

Dreamguy, The Shonen Jump Myspace is not a fansite - It is an official MySpace account operated by VIZ Media, the U.S. company that publishes Shonen Jump in the United States and Canada. Since this Myspace is official, it cannot be treated like a fansite. WhisperToMe (talk) 04:20, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

Guess you missed everything I said except the one part you could twist the wording on to take issue with. I repeat: We do not link to a whole string of allegedly official sites because we are not a web directory. If they don't think highly enough of their own MySpace page to link to it from their own main page, why should we? The MySpace page is a page for fans. Whether it's the official fan page or an amateur fan page is not relevant. It serves no encyclopedic purpose to link to it, and they already used up the official site slot. If their MySpace page was their official official site instead of just another official page, then we'd link to it. It's not, and it fails or other standards, so it should not be linked to.DreamGuy (talk) 18:05, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

DreamGuy:

1. You said: "We do not link to a whole string of allegedly official sites because we are not a web directory." - One, multiple websites are acceptable. Two, WP:NOT External links specifically warns against having too large of an external links section - Having a grand total of two external links in no way infringes on the prohibition of a web directory, so WP:NOT External links is not relevant in this discussion.

2. "If they don't think highly enough of their own MySpace page to link to it from their own main page, why should we? The MySpace page is a page for fans." - VIZ thinks highly enough of its myspace that it is linked from the pages of its magazine.

3. " Whether it's the official fan page or an amateur fan page is not relevant." - Wikipedia's Wikipedia:External links style guideline clearly contradicts your sentence. The entire "Links normally to be avoided" section is exempted by the "Except for a link to an official page of the article's subject" sentence. Also this sentence is not to be interpeted that the exemption applies to only one official website at a time, or something like that. It applies to any and all official websites. Official pages of subjects are treated differently than fan sites. Please read Wikipedia's page on a fan site, which defines it as a website created by a fan of a property. A VIZ Media official website *cannot* be a fansite.

4. You said: "except the one part you could twist the wording on to take issue with" - Bad faith presumptions are not appreciated in this discussion

5. You said: "If their MySpace page was their official official site instead of just another official page, then we'd link to it." The discussion above, and discussions in other pages have stated that it is acceptable to link to multiple official pages

The issue is now down to a simple editing dispute, whether to include an allowable link or not on its own, specific merits.

Dreamguy, next time please understand all of the undisputed previous points and fully and properly address them. I am going to ask you to re-read the discussion above and understand what the dispute is and which aspects are not disputed.

I must re-affirm that fansites are covered in "Links normally to be avoided" - And the section addresses fansites. Most fansites are not to be linked.

WhisperToMe (talk) 18:33, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

(EC) Sorry, but DreamGuy is exactly right. We do not link to every last official site just because it exists, and Wikipedia is not a valid source for arguing the definition of a "fan site". The MySpace page is not an official site in terms of parting company information, it is a site made for fans to allow them the illusion of socializing with the Viz staff. We do not link to every actors MySpace, Facebook, Twitter, etc just because they exist if they have an official central website. By the same token, we don't link to every language site of large international companies. One link is sufficient. And putting the link in a single magazine issue on a single page is not really "thinking highly", it was by your own remarks a minor note. This link does NOT meet the guidelines for inclusion as an EL no matter how you continue trying to twist the guidelines to claim it is exempt. It is not. Just because there is an exemption in "Links normally to be avoided" does NOT negate the overall guidelines of ELs "contain further research that is accurate and on-topic; information that could not be added to the article for reasons such as copyright or amount of detail; or other meaningful, relevant content that is not suitable for inclusion in an article for reasons unrelated to its accuracy". The MySpace page is neither meaningful, nor relevant to the topic at hand nor to the majority of readers. Therefore, it does not belong. -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 18:49, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

What you said about not linking every language site or every social networking site, etc. applies when the number of external links is very high. That is the key concept of WP:NOT#EL. Because we are talking about a grand total of two external links, in the case of multiple language websites we could/would link the extra non-English website. In the case of the one social networking site we could/would link the extra website. The time when NOT to link to these extra sites is when the number of external links becomes large. Then we begin paring down the external links. On Air France Flight 447 the editors had to pare down the links to mainly English links and one official link apiece because there were so many links.

You said: "The MySpace page is not an official site in terms of parting company information, it is a site made for fans to allow them the illusion of socializing with the Viz staff." - It is operated by the company, so it would be official. What is "official" and what isn't depends on who has the control.

You said: "it was by your own remarks a minor note." - If you are referring to what I think you are referring to, I wasn't referring to the magazine, I was referring to the press release in that because the link is not easily found on the website, it ought to be included - I wasn't saying it wasn't important, I was saying it was not easily found. Because it is not easily found on the main site, the social networking site should be linked to. In any case, when referring to other people's posts it helps to quote so we know what one is referring to and the context.

You said: "This link does NOT meet the guidelines for inclusion as an EL no matter how you continue trying to twist the guidelines to claim it is exempt." It is exempt from many of the guidelines, which have been used as arguments by some editors on this page. DreamGuy argued that the SJ Myspace was a fansite, and that particular guideline is exempted by the official site clause. The exemption is not related to the sentence in the header of WP:EL which you are trying to use in your argument. In that case it would not be exempted by the official clause.

You said: "And putting the link in a single magazine issue on a single page is not really..." - It was the latest issue that I received. I could see if VIZ keeps referring to it in later issues.

You said: "Wikipedia is not a valid source for arguing the definition of a 'fan site'." I scoured published dictionaries and couldn't find the word. In any case the prohibition against linking fansites on most occasions is under "Links normally to be avoided," so that argument is moot for this discussion.

Your argument centers on this phrase: "Such pages could contain further research that is accurate and on-topic; information that could not be added to the article for reasons such as copyright or amount of detail; or other meaningful, relevant content that is not suitable for inclusion in an article for reasons unrelated to its accuracy." - This is not under the official sites exemption, as you correctly state. Because the official sites exemption clears out everything in "links normally to be avoided," the discussion focuses on the other parts of WP:EL, and you are referring to these parts.

Now, as for this particular sentence, I argue that the SJ MySpace site meets the criteria:

The information is accurate as it comes directly from VIZ Media.

The topic is the US/Canada Shonen Jump, so the information is on topic in regards to the magazines and its editors

Including the convention dates and listing every promotional offer in the article itself would be too much detail. Including the Bleach poster image on the Myspace account in the article would be a copyright issue. External links are there to link to detail and content that would not appear on Wikipedia itself.

The content is certainly relevant to the subject (US/Canada Shonen Jump)

The reasons why the information in the MySpace is not included in the article are not related to the accuracy of the information

Now, the subjective part is whether it is meaningful. External links are used to link to unencyclopedic information, and I feel that convention dates and additional promotional offers related to the subject itself are meaningful for the audience of the article.

WhisperToMe (talk) 19:46, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

tvtropes.org

What is the general consensus on whether or not the TV tropes.org wiki meets WP:EL? The specficic article where the link is in question is macial negro. Thanks! -- The Red Pen of Doom 14:50, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

(I'm the editor who wanted to add the link.) As I said at Talk:Magical Negro, it is my opinion that TV Tropes is comparable in nature to the Star Wars ("Wookieepedia"), Star Trek ("Memory Alpha"), or Harry Potter wikis — not at all a "reliable source", but definitely exhausti{ve,ng} and (to readers who like that sort of thing) useful. It seems to be one of the wikis that are "impressive, covering their subject in more detail than Wikipedia ever could or would even want to do". Considering that "With the strong desire to generate this content, an outlet for these editors (and readers) is desired", adding an external link to TVTropes on articles that are very clearly about an archetype/trope might even help decrease the amount of non-notable trivial "examples" that well-meaning editors keep trying to add to our articles. Shreevatsa (talk) 16:06, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

It clearly doesn't meet WP:EL rules. The content is quite low quality in general with just random comments strewn here and there, people arguing with each other if something meets some ill-defined trope or not. "Links to blogs, personal web pages and most fansites, except those written by a recognized authority." should be avoided. This is basically one big fan site (fans of made up terms as seen in lots of fiction) with no authority at all. The wiki section here says that the wiki must be stable, and a site that says: "There Is No Such Thing As Notability, and no citations are needed. If your entry cannot gather any evidence by the Wiki Magic, it will just wither and die. Until then, though, it will be available through the Main Tropes Index." is never stable. That's just a free for all. And, frankly, Shreevatsa, Wikipedia:Linking to other wikis is just a proposal that says all sorts of things that contradict what WP:EL says. *This* is the page you have to be concerned with. Ignore that one. DreamGuy (talk) 17:02, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

The current "Linking to other wikis" (apparently dead) proposal is simply to change the visual appearance of links to other wikis. It is not a justification for increasing the number of links to wikis. (Links to a wiki to promote the wiki or to attract more editors to it would violate WP:EL#EL4.)

External links to wikis must comply with all the usual rules, and specifically with WP:EL#EL12. This particular link does not appear to do that and should not be included. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:15, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

I concur that (a) TV Tropes is not WP:RS, and (b) it should not be encouraged as an External link, in spite of being notable enough to have an article. Happy Editing! — 138.88.93.15 (talk · contribs) _{19:03, 2 July 2009 (UTC)}

I wonder if those who frequent this talk page would ever approve of any questionable external link, no matter what the cicumstances. :-) While I recognise the wisdom that no doubt went into the creation of the WP:EL "rules", I would appreciate having a sensible discussion without lawyering over policy. The question that matters is whether it is useful for Wikipedia readers — does it make an article better — to include a certain link. I do not see why the answer is different for the Harry Potter wiki versus the TVTropes wiki, because (having spent almost no time at either of them) it seems that if anything, it is the latter that is more stable and mature in practice. In the former case, it seems that the link is included despite violating WP:EL, simply because good judgement suggests so. Anyway, I am not associated with any wiki and have no desire to "promote" any of them; I was only trying to add something that would be useful to the readers of the Wikipedia article, but I really have no much enthusiasm to go further, especially when the discussion veers bureaucratic. Best regards, Shreevatsa (talk) 01:22, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

It's not bureaucratic. It's straightforward. "Useful" is not a criteria on its own, and makes no sense to be one. Being a link directory, including reams of good and bad links and even marking them so, would be "useful", as would being a dictionary, or a price comparison guide. We aren't any of those things. We are an encyclopedia, and this guideline reflects that. We are not here to be all things useful, only encyclopedically useful. 2005 (talk) 02:12, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

"I would appreciate having a sensible discussion without lawyering over policy." So you disagree with the consensus and therefor the discussion wasn't sensible? That's an impractical way of looking at things. DreamGuy (talk) 14:00, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

I didn't say that. This discussion was sensible, I just wanted another sensible discussion without a tone of "don't read other pages, confine your thinking to the purview of the rules here". Surely we ought to be able to arrive at a consensus through independent reasoning, possibly changing the policy when necessary. After all, the top of the page refers to common sense: "It is a generally accepted standard that editors should attempt to follow, though it is best treated with common sense and the occasional exception." (Also, what consensus? There hasn't even been a discussion of the specific case, just general talk about EL12.) Shreevatsa (talk) 15:52, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

←I've examined several pages on Tvtropes.org. From the previous slighting descriptions here it was not what I expected. It is a delightfully highbrow view of popular fiction in general, and selectively worth recommending to the reader of Wikipedia fiction articles.
Tvtropes is a general literary analysis site. It is no more a fan site than is Wikipedia. The level of detail is impossible for Wikipedia to cover, yet the unique exposition of "trope" units has the academic flavor common to all analysis. This site is useful to arts-learning readers who are interested in pursuing the common thematic details of latter twentieth-century-plus visual fiction genres.
At Tvtropes, fiction is analyzed for "trope" story-telling content: themes and sub-themes common to fiction and real life, which are sometimes but not always clichés. To make the process consistent, a substantial category list of defined tropes to be wikilinked appears at: Narrative Tropes - The elements of storytelling.
Tvtropes has article pages paired with a discussion page. Unlike Wikipedia, the trope article analysis can continue as long as the readers or editors remain interested. The discussion page has discussions like Wikipedia, signed but not dated.
I was pleased by the actual analysis quality of the fictional works I know, as well as the apparent quality of some random works I don't know.
The tropes are not ill-defined. I examined "Chase scene". I have seen this distinctive trope many times on TV and in movies. Under chase scene I examined the sub-trope "Fruit cart", a category of showy things that chase scene vehicles destroy. Particularly amusing is the provided example of fruit-cart trope parody in Waynes World 2: "Garth Algar: What do these guys do? Chicken-man: Well, their job is to walk back and forth with this big plate-glass window every couple of minutes. Garth Algar: Weird. Wayne Campbell: Yeah, you've got to wonder if this is gonna pay off later on."
I recommend Tvtropes to anyone who aspires to the art and craft of fiction writing.
Let's have a look at tvtropes.org as examined by WP:EL#EL12: "12. Links to open wikis, except those with a substantial history of stability and a substantial number of editors."

• Tvtropes was founded in 2004 - five years.
• It appears to have hundreds of pages.
• It appears to have hundreds of editors (or more since anons are allowed).

It's substantial, stable, and therefore eligible for an external link.
Based on what I have so far seen, I consense Tvtropes.org as a qualified external-link wiki companion to selected Wikipedia fiction articles on a case-by-case basis. By case-by-case, I mean that an editor who links it should first actually read the Tvtropes analysis for a particular work, and find it interesting enough to recommend to others. Milo 09:38, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

You "consense" it as a qualified external link?!? Did you just make that word up thinking that your opinion somehow becomes consensus just because you say it is? The actual consensus, as attested to by several editors above, is that it doesn't meet WP:EL rules. DreamGuy (talk) 14:00, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

Regarding Milomedes's points, I will see them. He said: "Tvtropes was founded in 2004 - five years." - But this is talking about a history of stability, which means that the content is stable. Also hundreds of pages and hundreds of editors do not sound big enough. Therefore this does not match WP:EL guidelines. WhisperToMe (talk) 03:08, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the educational opportunity. Wiktionary - "consense": "To agree; to form a consensus." The first time I used it, it was my original back-formation of a type permitted to skilled writers of North American English. Alas, I can't take credit since "consense" was consensed beginning as early as Harry Hay in 1970. British English writers seem to agree (since they can't yet "consense") that such words be first formed and generally used in North America. Milo 20:20, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

So you did use it to pretend to have a consensus when you clearly don't. Thanks for educating us about your deceptive practices here. DreamGuy (talk) 17:58, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

Maybe we need an External Links noticeboard? A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 14:31, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

I would support that idea. Right now, I use this space as such(se below). Anyways, --Tom (talk) 15:01, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

It seems to come up enough. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 17:40, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

This is essentially the EL noticeboard. I don't see a need to split it off until volume demands it. DreamGuy (talk) 17:58, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

Yes, I too consense an External Links noticeboard. There are at least three isolationist editors here at Talk WP:EL, rejecting external links based on excessively strict interpretations of WP:EL, and too many unwritten rules that they can't even consense to write down. (See the RfC above #Why we link official websites - proposal.)

The result is trending Wikipedia toward a walled garden. Milo 20:20, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

Well, these questions come up often enough so I think there will be volume for it. Technically speaking, the article talk page is supposed to provide space for editors to discuss changes to its associated article. Asking "Is www.somewebsite.com appropriate for an external link?" has nothing to do with improving the article. Plus, it would keep discussions about the guideline separate from discussions about whether a particular Web site meets the guideline. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 00:19, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

I agree with DreamGuy and 138.88.93.15. TVTropes does not meet the community consensus for a valid wiki article per the guidelines here at WP:EL (someone's personal failed proposal that directly contradicts it has nothing to do with the discussion). TVTropes does not have a "substantial history of stability and a substantial number of editors" and it certainly is not "useful, tasteful, informative, factual" nor does it meet the very first standard of an EL, as it certainly does not contain "research that is accurate". It completely fails EL guidelines and should not be added to any age beyond its own article, and should be removed where found on fictional topics. -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 15:57, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

"research that is accurate" To test that, I sample-checked fiction that I knew, and it accurately contained the tropes they listed.

"TVTropes does not have a "substantial history of stability and a substantial number of editors"..." How is hundreds of articles and editors since 2004 not substantial? I question whether your position is based on fact denialism, not permitted under WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT.

This is the third time I've encounted this problem in about two months. Maybe we need a Fact denialism noticeboard? Milo 20:20, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

Milo, considering that all of your edits to this talk page have basically been WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT, using it to describe other people's comments is just absurd. DreamGuy (talk) 17:58, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

I agree that this open Wiki should not be linked as per WP:EL. Links normally to be avoided states "Links to open wikis, except those with a substantial history of stability and a substantial number of editors." - Since, from my understanding, this website does not have either, we should not link to it. WhisperToMe (talk) 03:05, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for talking about TVTropes itself. I do think that it has "substantial history of stability and a substantial number of editors", and also that it is "useful, informative, factual", but if the consensus at the moment is that it is not, that is fine. Shreevatsa (talk) 16:10, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

Of course TVTropes is substantial. Unfortunately, your routine EL request has become the latest victim of the Wikipedia Fiction Conflict. See my "insider" explanation at the bottom of this post: [12]. Also see an aspect of it discussed here by the major players: [13].

If you want to do something about this unfair situation at Talk WP:EL, how about keeping this page on your watchlist and add your opinion, based on the facts, to the consensus about each requested link? Milo 20:20, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

I'd like to "revise and extend" my comments: This may be an okay link.

Specifically, http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MagicalNegro (not the wiki's main page) is probably acceptable -- or at least not prohibited -- under the wiki-specific rule. I base this on Milo's identification (thanks, Milo) of the wiki's age and the number of active editors: 100+ different editors each day is enough to deal with vandalism (which is one of the major points behind that rule). I therefore think that its existence as a wiki should not be held against the webpage.

The link would still have to meet requirements like having more information than the Wikipedia article, not telling lies, not violating copyrights, etc., but I think we can give it a pass under ELNO #12 and evaluate it the same as, oh, a magazine website or university website. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:20, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Wiki ranking resources

Just to clarify if you researched your own data on "editors each day", perhaps using a wiki tool?

I roughly estimated pages and editors based on the scanning the trope index, and the great detail found in pages that I sampled. The 2004 founding year came from the WP article. According to the article, TVTropes.com is a PMWiki rather than a Mediawiki, so I didn't presume the Mediawiki tools would work, and I'm new to using them anyway.

I did locate a useful resource for estimating ranking of wikis: 999/612 largest Mediawiki wikis - s23.org.

Note that Wikia occupies ranks 6 through 394, yielding 388 identical ranks of 1,442,672 users. Wikia is certainly large but doesn't match the parameters of this list, so subtract 387 from 999 = 612, placing Wikia at an artifactual rank of 6.

I matched TVTropes to a estimated rank of 247 (IIRC) of 612 wiki ranks, based on 3,583 unique U.S. visitors provided by Compete.com for 05/2009. Equating Compete.com "visitors" to s23.org "users" may not be technically correct, but it does yield a rank number to falsify.

Dividing 3,583 visitors by 31 days of May yields 116 visitors per day. If the vast majority of the visitors are also editors (a reasonable possibility at TVTropes), there would indeed be 100+ editors per day. Milo 08:41, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

Mywikibiz as external links

Sorry if this has been asked/answer/dealt with. I am seeing mywikibiz(i think thats it, correct me if Iam wrong) links in bios. Is this approriate or does it fail one of the criteria for inclusion? Thanks, --Tom (talk) 14:57, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

Per the discussion above, I guess this would fall into criteria #12 for why not to include? Anyways, --Tom (talk) 15:04, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

The articles are either pure self promotion created by the subject or hatchet jobs by detractors. Should be on Xlinkbots blacklist. -- The Red Pen of Doom 15:27, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

I removed it after an urgent request that it should not be on XLinkBot .. (see User_talk:XLinkBot#MyWikiBiz.com). I was ambivalent, but did not see any recent 'spam-like' activity with it. However, if it is felt otherwise .. it can always be readded. --Dirk Beetstra ^{T C} 15:31, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

So they would not be appropriate for EL section. No opinion about XlinkBot above since I don't trust or like bots :) --Tom (talk) 15:37, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

I was not aware of the guidelines for being listed with xlinkbot - and apparently just being a cesspool of the internets poor content is not enough, spamming or promotion is required and that currently isnt happening. -- The Red Pen of Doom 15:48, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

For the majority of the regexes, my personal thoughts are 'it is often added by new accounts/IPs in a way which violates WP:ELNO (or one of the other policies and guidelines, generally, WP:COI/WP:NOT#REPOSITORY/WP:NOT#DIRECTORY/WP:COPYRIGHT)'. Mywikibiz has, according to my stats, not been added too much, so there was no reason to have it on XLinkBot (especially since there was a serious request to have it removed). --Dirk Beetstra ^{T C} 17:44, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

While I have a COI (as the founder of the site), MyWikiBiz is a notable enough site that it has its own stable article within Wikipedia, and some of its pages are more detailed biographies than what is available on Wikipedia. For example, compare Liz Cohen on Wikipedia with Liz Cohen on MyWikiBiz. I could probably point to about 25 Wikia wikis that receive EL's from Wikipedia that have far, far, far less editing and subscribership activity than MyWikiBiz, but we don't see Wikia being nominated for a blacklist (why is that?). Yes, MyWikiBiz directory pages are usually self-promotional. There are certainly less than 20 "hatchet jobs" on the website's 40,000+ pages (so, I would appreciate a retraction of that swipe). If you see any EL's from Wikipedia to a hatchet job, please delete the link, or I will do it personally.

If it is of interest to you, I can also provide web traffic data which, I think, would surprise you by how little of MWB's site traffic is owed to links from Wikipedia (other than the obvious fat one from MyWikiBiz. -- Thekohser 03:12, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

Charles Manson is notable enough for an article on him, that doesn't make linking to his website a good idea. Notability and popularity are not EL criteria. Encyclopedic merit, quality, reliability, detail and a few other things are. (And Wikia websites are usually bad links too so why bring that up?) 2005 (talk) 03:19, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

Um, User:2005, I think you didn't notice, but mentioning an infamous name in reference to a situation of mere business dealings is uncivilly odious. This is one of those cases where a delete-replace edit is recommended, possibly replacing within square brackets – rather than striking through. Milo 08:30, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

Aw, heck... if my hard work has already been maligned as a "cesspool of the internets", what's a little Charles Manson reference? Anyone want to shoot for the Hitler Trifecta?

Meanwhile, look at this filth on MyWikiBiz. Can anyone here ever imagine MyWikiBiz evolving into a credible destination of EL's from Wikipedia? Bah, never! -- Thekohser 13:05, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

Um, please try to be civil at least occasionally and don't make up silly stuff. The text is there, and the point is correct. Just because some entity is notable does not mean that we will link to it. I didn't equate his website with Manson since I didn't even mention his website, which I've never seen and don't care about at all. This is the talk page about the guideline, not how cool or uncool specific sites are. 2005 (talk) 00:31, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Like Wikipedia, MyWikiBiz is a swath of poor quality content, POV pushing, and some legitimate, solid info. So the same rules should apply. Take each link on its own merits, rather than just blacklisting it. --Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^(talk) 15:10, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

I'm not particularly fond of Greg (Thekohser), but we must be fair here, especially given any dislike we may have of him. MyWikiBiz links can and should be examined just as any other links—there are cases where they may be appropriate, and cases where they may not be appropriate. We don't need to use ad hominem or straw men arguments, which seem to be common to both "sides" of this discussion. For example, the Manson argument is a straw man (Greg isn't that bad) but the Wikia argument is equally a straw man (the existence of other unjustified links does not justify more—and please, you're quite free to point out unjustified Wikia links!)

Greg's example of his Liz Cohen article is one that's favourable to him: it contains a number of nice images of Cohen and her project that are both relevant and can't be used on Wikipedia (traditionally-copyrighted, used there with permission). This is something that provides "a unique resource beyond what the article would contain if it became a Featured article". I think that that link can thus be justified. The "List of medieval philosophers" (Greg's link titled "this filth"), on the other hand, doesn't provide a particularly unique source of information: names, dates and places aren't particularly "unique", and the column detailing the integer number of pages devoted to them in a particular reference likely isn't relevant. That page should probably not be linked from Wikipedia.

Links to MyWikiBiz should not be banned, but they do merit careful consideration. For the record, this applies equally to Wikia articles: if a Wikia link fails the external link criteria, remove it. {{Nihiltres|talk|edits}} 15:55, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

Wow it has a complete listing for Cahiers de l’Institut du Moyen Âge grec et latin . And the complete text in Latin of Peter of Cornwall's sophisma Every man exists. Peter Damian (talk) 17:05, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

It does not qualify as a valid EL. Claims above that it has same problems as Wikipedia and is treated the same way are odd, in that w do not link to other Wikipedia style projects. Ditto for the claim that we aren't trying to blacklist Wikia -- we aren't supposed to link to Wikia generally either. Only those wikis will stable content and etc. should be linked to. Lots of our links on various pages to wikis shouldn't be there either. Saying we link to those so why not this is just WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. DreamGuy (talk) 17:41, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

Please, Peter. Nihiltres couldn't be bothered with actually looking at some of the articles linked from the "List of medieval philosophers". His intent was to make his personal opinion of me known (along with my real name), while hiding behind his Montreal-based pseudonym, immune to any real-name criticism of his patterns of behavior. That only left time for a cursory dismissal of the page I pointed out, without exploring whether any of the listed, linked-to pages about the philosophers themselves might be more comprehensive than what lurks in his beloved Wikipedia. -- Thekohser 17:47, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

When you list your real name on your userpage the complaints that I'm mentioning it are baseless—not to mention that it's trivial to connect your "founder of the site" above with your real name given your profile(s) there. My personal opinion is relevant because we're discussing your site: I'm not hiding my biases. I do think it's important to be fair, and I've defended you here against what attack was unreasonable. My pseudonymity is pointless: discredit my "Nihiltres" identity and I lose nearly as much as if my real name were on the line.

That being said, your attack on my "dismissal" of your page is a straw man: my "dismissal" of your page wasn't cursory. I specifically mentioned the page that you linked—I did not imply in any way that the pages linked from it were good or bad, and I didn't even begin to discuss what might be in Wikipedia. We're discussing external links here: the specific page I mentioned did not have much useful material on it, so it would probably not be a worthwhile external link: it's very simple. I don't feel like arguing the relative merits of your various pages here. My point is rather that summary judgments are inappropriate here, and that point is in your favour. Let it go. {{Nihiltres|talk|edits}} 19:40, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

The conversation appears to be veering from the original posters question, but I think we have reached a pretty much community consensus (to steal from Nihiltres): "MyWikiBiz links can and should be examined just as any other links—there are" a few "cases where they may be appropriate, and" many "cases where they may not be appropriate."

Have I captured the conversation? -- The Red Pen of Doom 19:45, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

If MyWikiBiz is going to be treated like a myspace or facebook page then there is no problem but any UGC is going to fail as an RS, looking at the Liz Coehn page on here I would be tempted to send it to AfD, with the best outcome being for it to be deleted. Adding MWB links to that page would not save it from an AfD anymore than her personal website would, looking at MWB is it not simply a webhost with autobiographies written by the subjects, if someone wrote a Wikipedia article like a MWB page then it would be torn down for lack of RS and COI. I don't see a point where an article would need a MWB link, and if it was on Xlinkbot previously then why was it added? Most Xlinkbot links stem from a spate of spamming, has anyone spammed MWB links in the past, (on Liz Cohen some considered it spam last year)? Darrenhusted (talk) 00:34, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

One removal by any one editor claiming a domain/URL as spam doesn't make it spam, even if it's an admin, up to and including Jimbo. Informed discussion from a broad spectrum of users is consensus. rootology (C)(T) 04:19, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

The conversation isn't over yet. MyWikiBiz is... a free Wiki. It's contents are no better or worse than any other free wiki project. It's usage should be addressed case by case, article by article. We can't blanket-ban such a project because of it's nature, which would go against our mission to spread free knowledge. A perfect model of how these links need to be treated is how we treat Wikia.com links, another free wiki-based project of sometimes good, sometimes great, and sometimes worthless content--like any wiki. rootology (C)(T) 04:17, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

As a free wiki, it starts out as a link to be avoided unless it can prove worthiness, which it hasn't. Saying we treat them on a case by case basis when we already know that that answer is going to be no almost in any conceivable circumstance is misleading and pointless. We should just say outright no in such helpless cases instead of giving self-promoters a wide opening to wikilawyer their way into adding unhelpful links all over because somebody said a maybe that got abused. DreamGuy (talk) 17:37, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Equador Wikia, useless; Sealab Wikia, useless; Harry Hill Wikia, useless; and many more. Many of these have no content of value, Wikia's value is not inherited to all projects there. By your logic, we should be purging links to the general crap of Wikia. It's the same here--we judge links case by case, not "site by site". Why is MyWikiBiz a "helpless case", and where was this decided by a consensus discussion? rootology (C)(T) 17:59, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

As those three links were indeed useless, I've removed them from the corresponding articles. Of course we should treat these sites on a case-by-case basis, but the simple answer when asked if we should link to wikis is "generally not, unless there is a good reason to". --Conti|✉ 18:11, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, and I agree fully with your take, but not with DreamGuy's, whose policy interpretation appears to be his own creation. No site is inherently a "not qualified", and we have to take it on a case by case basis per link, not domain. rootology (C)(T) 18:23, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

What are you even talking about? There are plenty of sites that are inherently not qualified. Some domains are just plain no. I'm certainly not making up my own policy on this, as that's absolutely noncontroversial to the strong majority of editors here. Some sites ARE just plain no. And based upon this being a wiki without a stable base of editors, this is clearly one of them. DreamGuy (talk) 23:04, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

You saying it's "clear" doesn't make it clear. It would seem that the consensus in this discussion is that there may be a handful of high-quality, informative, useful pages on MyWikiBiz that may merit linking from Wikipedia. -- Thekohser 05:11, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

I agree, but at the same time I don't think there really are a lot of link to mywikibiz that we should link to. There's one at Sophismata that doesn't seem particularly useful to me. Heck, it's lead is an unattributed copy of the Wikipedia article (unless User:Peter Damian is User:Ockham). So "We shouldn't generally link to mywikibiz" sounds about right. There are always exceptions, of course. --Conti|✉ 18:45, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Based on this and [14] User:Peter Damian is User:Ockham- and I might add, quite protective about keeping the links from the wikipedia articles to his uploads at mywikibiz reverting my deletions based on the coversation here within a matter of hours. -- The Red Pen of Doom 23:06, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Question for thekohser: How many unique editors does MyWikiBiz get on a typical day? Do you know what percentage of editors work on, or watch, more than one article? WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:28, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

While I'm interested in stats as much as the next guy, how does that pertain to deciding whether to allow it as an EL? --Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^(talk) 00:10, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

My question relates specifically to WP:ELNO#EL12: Open wikis are bad, unless they have a "substantial history of stability and a substantial number of editors."

MyWikiBiz seems to be an open wiki. But does it have the required level of stability and active editors? If it doesn't, then it's a lousy link. If it does, then it can't be banned solely on the basis of that single rule. (It might not qualify for all sorts of reasons, but that single rule would become irrelevant.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:15, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

Ah, ok, thanks for explaining how it was pertinent. Anyhow, using Special:Listuser on MWB turns up a maximum of 1000 registered users (browsing 4 pages set to list 500 per page.)[15] So I wouldn't exactly say it's the largest user base. "Stability" is far trickier, sort of like trying to judge if a source has enough of a history of fact-checking and accuracy to merit being reliable. --Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^(talk) 02:52, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

MyWikiBiz has a curious dual nature. The pages in Directory space are not "open" as in other wikis. They are protected from community editing -- so the only eligible writers on Directory pages are the original creator of the page and the sysops of the site. The pages in Main space are more typically "open", although editing privileges are limited to those who authenticate their account via an e-mail address. I tend to agree that there should not be a ton of links to MyWikiBiz from Wikipedia. However, there are currently less than 80, and the vast majority of these emanate from User Talk and Wikipedia Talk pages. Wikia, in contrast has polluted Wikipedia with more than 16,000 links. Similarly, most are from User and Wikipedia spaces. But, really... less than 80 links, versus an excess of 16,000 links. Are you sure MyWikiBiz is the bigger threat to the WP:EL policy? -- Thekohser 04:43, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

Are you familiar with the fallacy outlined in WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS? The problems with Wikia links don't tell us anything at all about the value of MyWikiBiz links.

It looks like MyWikiBiz had seven unique editors yesterday. That's not exactly the level that I think qualifies as a "substantial number of editors," but perhaps others will have a different opinion. WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:55, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, seven unique editors does not appear to be a "substantial number of editors" to warrant linking. WhisperToMe (talk) 22:11, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

Previously on this page some folks suggested "thousands" of editors as a threshold. Some replies said "hundreds" may be be enough. But at bare minimum anything less than "dozens" is nowhere close to the threshold needed. 2005 (talk) 22:16, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

But a thousand are registered. July is summer off for a lot of students, and the 5th of July was a major holiday weekend in the USA. It's hardly fair to judge the number of editors based on one sample during an expected summer minimum. If it's impractical to count the total number of unique editors during the last 12 months, then the registered editor base is the practical alternative. Milo 01:51, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

And most of those who registered have barely edited at all (much like here, or pretty much any forum I can think of). Registered users tells us very little; active is a better benchmark. --Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^(talk) 02:39, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

"Registered users tells us very little; active is a better benchmark." Only if seasonally averaged. Active users is better if one can determine total or average of users per last 12 months, by actual count or enough samples. Otherwise registered users provides more reliable information, especially in a formula using other statistics such as age of the wiki. Milo 07:33, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

<-- (outdent) You'd better be very careful what you define as a threshold minimum for active editors for a wiki to be considered legitimate, because I will take that information and use it as my authority for deleting certain Wikia links, and when those links get re-added by other members of the Hive-Cult, then I'll have grounds for blacklisting all of Wikia as a "persistent spam site, in violation of our minimum editors threshold for inclusion". Think about it. Do you really want to go there, then have to backpedal on why the Wikia links are okay, but the MyWikiBiz links are not okay? -- Thekohser 04:09, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Gosh, that sounds a lot like a threat to do some super pointy editing. Classy. --Gimme danger (talk) 04:21, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Let's grant that you have a certain amount of external power. I agree that your point about using care in choosing the threshold is well-taken.

How about working with others knowledgeable of wiki-rating to choose several sets of specifications based on statistical and computer science, and presenting these for pro and con debate, much as the Abuse filter debate was consensed? Milo 04:26, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Go ahead. There definitely are more links to Wikia on Wikipedia than there should be. You can start here. :-) --Conti|✉ 11:53, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

I think going so far as computer models seems a tad complicated for the issue... pointy assertions by Thekohser aside, I think it's obvious to say that MWB links should be scrutinized on a case by case basis just as Wikia links and other wikis are. If you want to tackle all the Wikia links, be my guest, I find it sufficient to audit them in pages I've watchlisted. Really, unless there's some dramatic sea change, there's no way that we could blanket accept MWB any more than pretty much any site. --Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^(talk) 13:41, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Sorry to get so pointy there, but sometimes it seems that the revenge layer around here is so thick, it's hard to penetrate with logic. I'm guilty of it sometimes, too. Look here, I agree that MyWikiBiz may only have a half-dozen or so pages that merit inclusion via external linking in Wikipedia's article space. The fact that there are thousands of purely self-promotional pages on MyWikiBiz does warrant extra vigilence in how lower-quality pages may "creep" into Wikipedia's external link system. I haven't seen it become a rampant problem yet, however. As for trying to work with others to "rate" external sites for inclusion in (or exclusion from) Wikipedia's linking guidelines, I'd like to offer this: Somebody show me the proof that a wiki with high levels of activity across a broad range of editors results in more stable, more reliable, more useful informational content. I postulate that MyWikiBiz's modest requirement that editors authenticate via an e-mail address, combined with the site's architecture that limits editorial access to Directory pages to one editor only (plus sysops), actually creates a more stable, more reliable, and potentially more useful informational environment than other, more popular wikis (such as Encyclopedia Dramatica, Chickipedia, or some Wikia wikis). Let's use our heads. The content assembled here merits linking from Wikipedia, despite having only one editor. Something like this probably does not merit linking from Wikipedia, despite having four editors. If we can agree on that, then maybe we could come up with some firm guidelines for wiki merit -- such as Alexa ranking, unique editors in past 30 days, new accounts in past 30 days, number of pages in the wiki, etc. -- Thekohser 15:03, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

"Firm guidelines" is probably too strong, but "consensed guidelines" is a suitable term of art since consensus can change through WP process. Milo 07:33, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

Then I'm not seeing what the fuss is about then. We agree. I'm not sure firm guidelines for sites really work here, simply because the merits of linking are dependent on a single page on a site, not the site itself. --Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^(talk) 16:29, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

A "profile of characteristics" is often used in this situation. Like school grades: "A/4" in English, "C/2" in math, "B/3" in biology, etc. Milo 07:33, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

Honestly, if you find links to wikia wikis that have even fewer editors than MyWikiBiz, you'd be doing us a favor to remove all of them, and if some people object (can't be that many if the sites in question are that rinky-dink) then they need to get with WP:EL rules as well. Regardless of whether it was intended as a threat to try to make us see the supposed error of our ways, I call your bluff. Go for it. Either way, though, you aren't getting links to MyWikiBiz.com. DreamGuy (talk) 15:14, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Yes, I am. -- Thekohser 05:07, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

I, too, support removal of links to any and all half-dead/never-quite-alive/barely-anyone-home/otherwise under-supervised Wikia sites. As has been pointed out repeatedly, the fact that other **** exists is not an excuse for including more ****. We want good links at well-maintained sites, not zero-intelligence/even-handed acceptance of garbage. There is no "right to link sites that are no more garbage-y than the some other garbage sites". All the garbage should go. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:04, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

"All the garbage should go" Perhaps few would disagree with this unexamined position in principle. In practice, unavoidable threshold uncertainty would force exclusion of some sites that might not be garbage. Such cases would correctly be publicized as bureaucratic unfairness and become harmful to Wikipedia's reputation (not abstract – it could happen now).

The fix is to state the principle inverted: All the good sites should be kept. Uncertainty would then force the keeping of some garbage sites, but the worst situation should be no worse than now, which appears not fulminatingly harmful.

The equivalent principle in criminal law is 10 guilty persons should go free rather than one innocent person be punished. The rule supporting this principle in criminal law is: "guilty" is to be decided beyond a reasonable doubt. Criminal law guides the jury judging of extreme cases (crimes). Compare to civil law which guides the jury judging of typical cases (torts): prevail or fail is to be decided by a preponderance of the evidence. Milo 07:33, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

I support keeping all the good sites, too. Your analogy to criminal law is fatally, and perhaps some would say offensively, flawed: there is no fundamental human right to have a particular website listed in a Wikipedia article. WhatamIdoing (talk) 07:47, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

Yahoo groups

I know that in the distant past I added a mailing list and was told it was against our EL guidelines. When I looked into them I realised why and agreed. I removed a Yahoo group/mailing list from Qawwali today and it was put back, twice, the 2nd time with an edit summary "our guidelines are not inflexible rules. this newsgroup contains a wealth of useful information not available anywhere else, so it is a useful reference".[16] True or not, this is an argument that I can see being made everytime anyone says 'that shouldn't be linked'. Shall I just go away and ignore it now? I know I've seen people say talk page consensus overrides guidelines, which in turn means a small group of editors could hypothetically do what they want to (I've raised on the same article's talk page the same editor's insistence that no articles and evidentally no evidence is required to add someone to a list of 'well-known qawwals'). Dougweller (talk) 17:14, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

No. Frankly, considering the purpose of Yahoo groups, I'd revert it as spam and give a warning. It completely fails WP:EL and there is never a valid reason for adding a Yahoo Group to any article. Surprised it isn't already in the blacklist really. -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 17:22, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Yahoo Groups is explicitly listed under the EL links to be avoided section. Local consensus does not overrule guidelines, generally, otherwise we might as well not ever have any such rules for how often people will ignore them. DreamGuy (talk) 17:33, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

I've put a pointer on the talk page to this discussion. Her response was " The newsgroup (in its "Files" area) genuinely contains a wealth of information, compiled by qawwali fans as a labor of love, which is simply not available anywhere else. That's not hyperbole. It's not that it'shard to find it anywhere else. It simply doesn't exist anywhere else. Examples include: a virtually complete list of the qawwalis recorded by Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan, and the names of the poets who wrote the lyrics for those songs." Nice argument but again, that could be made for most Yahoo groups, in my experience, which is actually fairly large and includes more or less academic ones, cooking ones, fiction ones, etc, most of them contain similar stuff in their files area. She didn't mean 'newsgroup' I'm sure, she is talking about a Yahoo group. Dougweller (talk) 18:10, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

No. Not only is it an unreliable e-mail chat group, the supposedly valuable "Files" section is hidden behing a registration wall, which violates ELNO #6. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:33, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

I am the editor in question at Qawwali that Dougweller refers to.

For the record, I am not a she, and I'm not sure how Dougweller jumped to that gender assumption.

I take the point about the Files area being accessible only after registration, but there are still a bunch of other issues arising out of the comments here and on Talk:Qawwali, [[17]], which I have responded to on the Talk:Qawwali page. --Sarabseth (talk) 15:23, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

Your user name contains both "Sara" and (almost) "Beth", two common female names. I can see why someone would think you are female, so please don't take offense.

Your arguments for including the Yahoo Groups link, however, are not compliant with WP:EL rules in any way. You also seem to be suggesting that you have a WP:COI, which is even more reason for you to not put the link there. DreamGuy (talk) 17:53, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

Sarabseth is the leader of the Yahoo Group in question and I've told him that it fails these guidelines months ago and have pointed him at the COI guidelines, yet it appears he is still trying to promote his group. This is in no way acceptable. ThemFromSpace 19:14, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

Your arguments for including the Yahoo Groups link, however, are not compliant with WP:EL rules in any way.

Since WP:EL rules are actually guidelines, not inflexible rules, I have no idea what it means that my arguments "are not compliant with WP:EL rules in any way."

Maybe you can spell out in what way WP:EL "rules" make my arguments invalid? --Sarabseth (talk) 23:40, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

WP:DEADHORSE - but here we go. In order for us to blythely ignore applying the guidelines that community consensus has established as the guidelines / policies / rules that if consistently applied will improve the encyclopedia, it is up to YOU to convince us that in this instance ignoring the rules will in fact improve the encyclopedia. You have not yet and repetition of the same arguments will not either. When you are told over and over and over and over by different people the same thing, you may want to step back and think that maybe your interpretation and application is not correct. Otherwise if you continue your behavior may cross the line into disruptive behavior which would lead to consequenses that you may not be happy with. -- The Red Pen of Doom 00:51, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

When the "rules" are guidelines and not absolute prohibitions, and when the guidelines therefore provide for exceptions, how is permitting an exception equivalent to ignoring the rules?

That's really not that hard to understand, is it? Why is it to hard to respond to it, instead of just simply dismissing it? And now you're adding in threats too? I don't see how my comments here have been disruptive in any way. But feel free to punish me with whatever consequences you think I have deserved. --Sarabseth (talk) 01:08, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

I'm sympathetic to your problem because a similar thing happened to me. The best way to deal with it is to keep this page on your watchlist and comment on editors and issues that you see being treated unreasonably.

I agree that the guiderules need to be modified to account for external links to rare resources behind registration and subscription walls. Newspapers often require these things, and I don't see that Yahoo is much different in size and importance (WP:RS isn't an external links issue).

However, the real problem here is your COI. You need a number of other editors at Talk:Qawwali to consense that the link should exist in the fully disclosed context of your leadership of the Yahoo group in question. An open-ended poll may be useful for this purpose. Milo 02:31, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

For your "rules lawyering" you appear to be fixated You appear to be focusing on a claim that WP:EL "is only a gudieline". Here is how Wikipedia defines guideline "It is a generally accepted standard that editors should attempt to follow, though it is best treated with common sense and the occasional exception." (emph. added) You want your link to be one of the "occasional exemptions" - convince us why this link should be one of the exceptions that will improve the encyclopedia. -- The Red Pen of Doom 02:57, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

You don't seem to understand my last 2 comments here.

I wasn't trying to argue any more for retaining the Yahoo groups link in the Qawwali article. I conceded that point when I wrote: "I take the point about the Files area being accessible only after registration".

All I've been asking is why everyone believes that this guideline, which specifically allows for exceptions, as you just spelled out, should be applied in practice as if it is an absolute prohibition, with no exceptions ever allowed or considered. Because that had very much been the tenor of this discussion up till now. (For example, "It completely fails WP:EL and there is never a valid reason for adding a Yahoo Group to any article".) This last comment is the first time after Dougweller raised the issue that anyone has made any kind of statement that exceptions can even be considered.

You want your link to be one of the "occasional exemptions" - convince us why this link should be one of the exceptions that will improve the encyclopedia.

That's hilarious, because this of course is exactly what I tried to do (see Dougweller's second comment above). Kind of hard to do, though, when the argument you make is just reflexively dismissed, without any reference to the merits of the argument, because Yahoo groups are, apparently by definition, unreliable e-mail chat groups. Only Milo even considered my argument. The suggestion of an open-ended poll is constructive, but I'm wary of investing time and effort figuring out how to conduct one, and then actually doing it, if the editors who have been opposed to this specific link (given all the circumstances) would just come along and remove it again. Anyone care to comment on whether an open-ended poll, conducted as Milo suggests, would be accepted as justifying an exception?--Sarabseth (talk) 11:46, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

I have been involved in Yahoo groups for years, owning and/or moderating several. I am aware of their file sections and the sorts of things that are in them (and that unfortunately some include copyright materials, which in itself is a good reason to not allow them as external links. So it may be that we need to tighten up the guidelines, not weaken them to allow access in the way suggested above. Dougweller (talk) 12:13, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

If I understand your question, there are some sites that have so repeatedly been through the process and failed that the community has specifcally called them out as inappropriate in the guideline itself so that attempts to insert them can be swiftly and directly pointed to "NO" so that the community does not need to spend endless hours coming to the same conclusion that it has in the past.

In addition, my previous tone and attitude towards your questions on this page and the article page have been anything but welcoming and I apologize. -- The Red Pen of Doom 01:44, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

Links normally to be avoided exception sentences

I would like to determine if there is a consensus for the removal of these two sentences in "Links normally to be avoided" - done by User:DreamGuy:

• Removal of "—and not prohibited by restrictions on linking—" - He said: "the except line makes no sense in this context, this is the NO section, the except negates the no, and two NOs do not mean YES, they mean WAY NO"
• Removal of "Except for a link to an official page of the article's subject" - He said: "in fact, we already say official website elsewhere is a yes, so no need to even list this, just confuses people"

Is there a consensus for the removal of these sentences? I think it may be helpful to have both as clarification of how the guidelines interact with one another. I feel that by removing the second it makes the "official" exemption of everything in "Links normally to be avoided" less obvious. WhisperToMe (talk) 18:35, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

No, there is no consensus for this, and I have reverted it.

DreamGuy is right that the explanatory text is entirely redundant, but it exists because no one reads the (complete) directions, and repeating that important point reduces the number of questions on this page about it. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:06, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

If the justification is that it's there to provide extra information to help clear things up, it should be worded in such a way as to suggest the exact opposite of what it means. It adds more questions than it solves. And, frankly, if we're going to risk confusing people it's better that err on the side of people thinking they can't add links that maybe they could have instead of erring toward having people think they can add links willy-nilly. DreamGuy (talk) 17:45, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

I don't understand. Official websites are given a pass on ELNO issues. This is clearly supported by widespread practice. We say, in plain English, that official websites don't have to comply with ELNO. This is what we actually mean to say. So why would we re-write that text to say the opposite of what we actually mean? WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:06, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

EL question at Paraphilia

There's a question about whether a "professional reading list on the paraphilias"[18] is an appropriate external link at Talk:Paraphilia#Disclosure.

The author-and-Wikipedia-editor is clearly an expert (a sexologist whose research area is paraphilia and who works for the institution widely recognized as being the world's leader in research on paraphilia), so I have no concerns about complying with WP:ELNO #11, but I'm not sure whether external "further reading" lists are desirable.

(Fair warning: a couple of the editors on that page appear to have a long-standing, in-real-life personal feud.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:30, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

External reading lists are not desirable, no. DreamGuy (talk) 17:49, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

Based on what? -- Quiddity (talk) 23:30, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

I'd say that a reading list from the Department of Psychiatry, University of Toronto Faculty of Medicine, is a useful external link, for that article.

It might be even more useful to incorporate (some or all of) the list into a "Further reading" section of the article, though. -- Quiddity (talk) 23:30, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

User:WhatamIdoing has once again failed to mention her own long-standing involvement in this feud (she starts ancillary discussions like this as part of her gaming of the system). The appropriateness of this specific EL has to do with a controversial institution and a WP:SPA sexologist who works there. His sole purpose on Wikipedia is to promote himself and his institution's controversial work, such as adding an EL to his own highly selective reading list on his own webpage. Lots of WP:COI, WP:NPOV, and other information to be considered with this specific EL, so I recommend we all work together in one place to determine the best way to proceed. Details here. Thanks. Jokestress (talk) 02:37, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Please remember that we are discussing a plurality of links[19][20], not just one, and a growing host of wikipedians that James Cantor is accusing of bias[21].BitterGrey (talk) 05:19, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

The conversation appears to be active at Wikiproject Sexology. Editors that have responded here are encouraged to please move their comments to that discussion so that the discussion can benefit from the perspective of more people with no conflicts of interest. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:44, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Oh, and Jokestress' claim about my involvement in "this feud" is rather stretching things, since paraphilia isn't on my watchlist, and my involvement amounted to posting this note here, much like I've done for other similar questions in the past.

It's true that Jokestress disapproves of my reliance on reliable sources like The New York Times, instead of just taking Jokestress' word for it at other articles, though, and I'm sure that's been inconvenient for promoting the activist position.

But please: comments, to be useful, need to be at the real discussion, not here. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:52, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

WhatamIdoing, would you care to provide more detail regarding the claim that "a couple of the editors on that page appear to have a long-standing, in-real-life personal feud"[22]. If you are accusing us of bias or incivility, you should be specific about whom you are accusing and detailed in your claims. If not, why mention it at all?

By the way, those who really are "widely recognized" "world leaders" generally don't need to have their status constantly asserted. Specifically, they don't need to post "buy our article" links to multiple pages[23][24], and they don't need to write themselves into wikipedia articles, claiming to be notable [25].BitterGrey (talk) 01:53, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

Well, s/he didn't accuse anyone of bias or incivility, so a challenge to defend accusations that s/he didn't make hardly seems fair. Dlabtot (talk) 03:10, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

When the same comment was made about WhatamIdoing, WhatamIdoing thought a defense was necessary. I respect Jokestress for being specific about whom he was commenting about. I think it reasonable to ask WhatamIdoing to be equally respectable. BitterGrey (talk) 04:40, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

BitterGrey, perhaps you'd like to read what Jokestress has written about James Cantor and reach your own conclusions about whether this is just a chance encounter between two random editors. Consider whether the average person creates webpages that disparage every possible out-of-context or different-POV statement that another person makes, or whether this is perhaps a sign of a more significant involvement. Jokestress is a trans activist who is personally and professionally dedicated to discrediting the current views of most sexologists about transwomen (e.g., James Cantor). Jokestress doesn't disagree with my characterization of it as a feud; the only point of difference between us is whether my agreement with Cantor in unrelated articles makes me a significant participant in it. (Also, since Jokestress is a transwoman, you might consider using "she" instead of "he" in your comments.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 07:21, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

(outdent) The only personal feud here is User:WhatamIdoing's long-running attempts to use Wikipedia to settle her personal grudge over my off-wiki actions. I'd characterize it as the most fixated anyone has ever been on me here on Wikipedia. Her disingenuous claim of non-involvement is part of a scheme she uses to win arguments on Wikipedia. She's quite adept at gaming the system by attempting to WP:canvass uninvolved editors via policy pages, but it's also quite transparent after you've seen her do it a dozen times. She's a bit of a time sink, so it's not really worth getting in long discussions about her behavior. Better to stay focused on content issues, as we are on the main discussion regarding this external link COI. Jokestress (talk) 08:42, 8 July 2009 (UTC)