Wikipedia:British Isles Terminology task force/Channel Islands

Question: Are the Channel Islands part of the British Isles?

Sources

Below are a list of sources that answer the question, gathered into 'Yes', 'No' and 'Maybe'. Because of the number of sources, each group is contained within a show/hide template. Please click on "[show]" to see the list of sources in each group.

Yes

• "British Isles: a geographical term for the islands comparing Great Britain and Ireland with all their offshore islands including the Isle of Man and the Channel Islands." - Oxford English Dictionary

• "British Isles: a group of island lying off the coast of northwestern Europe, from which they are separated by the North Sea and the English Channel. They include Britain, Ireland, the Isle of Man, the Isle of Wight, the Hebrides, the Orkney Islands, the Shetland Islands, the Scilly Isles, and the Channel Islands." - New Oxford American Dictionary

• "British Isles: the group of island consisting of Great Britain and Ireland, and all the other smaller islands around them e.g. the Hebrides, Channel Islands, and the Isle of Man." - The Chambers 21st Century Dictionary

• "The British Isles comprise more than 6,000 islands off the northwest coast of continental Europe, including the countries of the United Kingdom of Great Britain (England, Scotland and Wales) and Northern Ireland, and the Republic of Ireland. The group also includes the United Kingdom crown dependencies of the Isle of Man, and by tradition, the Channel Islands (the Bailiwicks of Guernsey and Jersey), even though these islands are strictly speaking an archipelago immediately off the coast of Normandy (France) rather than part of the British Isles." - World Geography of Travel and Tourism: A Regional Approach, Alan A. Lew

• "British Isles: The major island components of the British Isles, geographically but not politically, are Great Britain and Ireland, 229 834 km2 (88 745 mi2). Great Britain comprises England, including the Isle of Wight, Scilly Islands and smaller islands; Wales, including Anglesey; Scotland, including the Inner Hebredes and the Orkney and Shetland Islands. Ireland, 83 851 km2 (32 375 m2), is divided into two parts: Northern Ireland, which until 1972 had an independent parliament and government under the British Crown and now is part of the United Kingdom, under direct British rule; and Ireland or Eire, which is an independent republic. From 1921 to 1937 the republic was known as the 'Irish Free State'. Smaller parts of Great Britain, but administered indirectly, are the Isle of Man and the Channel Islands." - Encyclopedia of European and Asian Regional Geology, Eldridge M. Moores et al.

• "The islands [the British Isles] encompass both the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man, which have maintained their own separate (from Westminster) system of government." - Human geography of the UK: an Introduction, Irene Hardill et al.

• "…the history of 'England' has overlapped repeated with that of other cultures within the British Isles (a term which should include the Isle of Man, the Channel Islands, Shetlands and Orkney, as well as the larger islands of Britain and Ireland)." - The British Isles: a History of Four Nations, Hugh Kearney

• "The British Isles consist of two large Islands, Great Britain and Ireland, the Channel Islands, and numerous small islands lying off the the north and west coasts." Encyclopedia of World Geography, M. Ali Khan et al.

• "The British Isles include, in addition to the United Kingdom, two interesting groups of islanders, those on the Isle of Man in the Irish sea and those living on the Channel Islands off the coast of France." The Development of the British Empire, Howard Robinson (NB: This source predate Irish independence)

• "The geographic term, British Isles, refers to the archipelago off the north-west coats of continental Europe, which includes the main island of Great Britain an the island of Ireland together with their subsidiary islands, including the Orkneys, Shetlands, the Isle of Man, and the Channel Islands." - Principles of Plant Health and Quarantine, D. L. Ebbels

• "The Channel Islands lie in the Gulf of Saint-Malo, just a few kilometers from et French coast, and have the sunniest climate in the British Isles." - Regional Climates of the British Isles, Dennis Wheeler et al.

• "The British Isles: The British Isles constitute the largest group of islands off the European cost. They consist of two main islands - Great Britain (composing England, Scotland, and Wales) and Ireland - a number of smaller inhabited islands, and numerous small islets an docks that are of no economic value and even constitute a danger to shipping. … The British Isles are divided politically into (a) the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and (b) the Republic of Eire. … In addition, the Isle of Man and the French-speaking Channel Islands are considered dependencies, rather than parts, of the United Kingdom; they have their own parliaments, judicial institutions, and bodies of law, as well as administrations, and acts of Parliament do not apply to them unless specifically so stated." - An Atlas of European Affairs

• "Geographically, the British Isles are made up of a number of islands, and there are also a number of different political components. Very often 'England' is used as a synonym of Britain, while 'Englishman' is employed as a blanket description for all the inhabitants of the British Isles. This, as any Welshman, Irishman or Scot will quickly point out, is incorrect. The United Kingdom consists of Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. The Isle of Man, in the Irish Sea, and the Channel Islands, off the coast of France (and formerly part of the Duchy of Normandy), are not part of the United Kingdom." - Modern Britain: an Introduction, John L. Irwin

• "In this book, 'the British Isles' is taken to include the Channel Islands, the Isle of Man, Orkney and Shetland as well as mainland Britain and Ireland." - Language in the British Isles, Peter Trudgill

• "Although the Channel Islands (Guernsey and Jersey) and the Isles of Man are part of the geographical area known as 'the British Isles', they are not part of the United Kingdom." - Modern Treaty Law and Practice, Anthony Aust (emphasis in original)

• "As such, the Channel islands represent the British Isles' most southerly territory and enjoy a climate of milt winters and cool summers supplemented with around 1,900 hours of sunshine a year (Guernsey or Jersey are often the sunniest places in Britain.)" - Channel Island Marine Molluscs, Paul Chambers

• "Within the geographical perimeter of the British Isles, the Channel Islands (Jersey, Guernsey, Alderney, Sark, an several smaller islands) and the Isle of Man are crown dependencies, governed by a lieutenant governor but with relative autonomy, and not included in the formal United Kingdom." - The History of Great Britain, Anne B. Rodrick

• "Overall, the late Precambrian geology of the southern British Isles can be view as divisible into three superterranes (i.e. groups of terranes) that may be classified as Monian (Anglesey, Western Llynn, southeast Ireland), Avalonian (Sarn Camplex of Llyn, Central England, Welsh Borderland, southwest Wales), and Cadomian (Channel Islands)." - Atlas of Palaeogeography and Lithofacies, John Christopher Wolverson Cope

• "The Flora deals with the British Isles, comprising Great Britain (England, Scotland, Wales), Ireland (Northern Ireland, the Irish Republic), the Isle of Man and the Channel Islands." - The Freshwater Algal Flora of the British Isles, D. M. John et al.

• "Neanderthal skeletal remains are known from two sites in the British Isles: Pontnewydd Cave in Clwyd, Wales, and La Cotte de Saint-Brelade on Jersey in the Channel Islands" - England: an Oxford Archaeological Guide to Sites from Earliest Times to AD 1600, Timothy Darvill

No

Maybe

• "British Isles: group of islands off the northwestern coast of Europe. The group consists of two main islands, Great Britain and Ireland, and numerous smaller islands and island groups, including the Hebrides, the Shetland Islands, the Orkney Islands, the Isles of Scilly, and the Isle of Man. Some also include the Channel Islands in this grouping." - Encyclopedia Britannica

Statement by Rannpháirtí anaithnid

This should be a no brainer. If we don't know what a term means, we look to a dictionary. If the definition is different to what we had thought, we come away thinking, 'Well, you learn something new everyday.' We should not, as a project, change the definition of things to suit either our needs as editors or our own world view as individuals or groups of editors. That would be POV pushing and not the purpose of this encyclopedia.

There are (I don't doubt) references out there that treat the Channel Islands and the British Isles as being separate. In compliment to these are references that treat Ireland as being separate from the British Isles (e.g. "British Isles and Ireland" in Fortress Britain: artillery fortification in the British Isles and Ireland, Andrew Saunders; or Hitch-hiker's guide to Europe, Ken Welsh; among more). Do we treat Ireland as being separate on account of those references? No. Should we treat the Channel Islands as being separate on account of them either? No.

We stick to the definitions given in reliable sources, plain and simple. Otherwise it's a free-for-all to write anything we like, regardless of factual accuracy. In the case of the question of whether the Channel Islands are a part of the British Isles, the definition is straight forward:

• "British Isles: a geographical term for the islands comparing Great Britain and Ireland with all their offshore islands including the Isle of Man and the Channel Islands." - Oxford English Dictionary (my emphasis)

(See also the list of references above.)

We are an encyclopedia. We do not have the privilege to change the definition of things to suit our POVs. Not on the Channel Islands, not on Ireland, not on anything.

--rannṗáirtí anaiṫnid (coṁrá) 10:15, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Statement by Matt Lewis

I personally find opening an RFC at this particular juncture a pushy act to say the least. I have spent a lot of time debating this over the last couple of days at Talk:Countries of the United Kingdom, and have promised more input (incl refs), and I need to catch up with the British Isles Specific Examples page at WP:BISLES too. There are plenty more refs out there, but they can't be target-keyworded in the manner of Rannpartis "channel islands" ones. It is a quirk of the internet that exceptions can be easily searched for (as they can be keyworded), whereas what is accepted is often harder to 'prove'. A library is often a better place fo the technical (ie non-sociological) sciences. The "no brainer" comment is a 'wind up' I can do without right now (that language is unacceptable as it has been countered so many times). Time is not that easy for me to find, and there is so much I can repeat myself before I am entitled to get tetchy. Most of my points have been studiously ignored by Rannparti (such as what is best for Wikipedia as an encyclopedia), and I hope he will not continue to do so in here. Supporters of the all-or-nothing definition tend to be IP's who stonewall progress in moderate guideline forming, as they often don't wish to see the term on Wikipedia at all (although others want it used without discretion).

Like Encyclopedia Britannica, Wikipedia is entitled to have its own preferred definition of BI. Britannica adds to their non-CI definition that "Some people include the Channel Islands", while in the children's edition it just excludes the CI's. Out there, there are non-Channel-Island 'archipelago' definitions, unfortunate-but-uncommon 'political' definitions, and "CI inclusive" for often-entirely-context-related-reasons definitions. Esceptions within disciplines also abound. Some dictionaries do offer single 'inclusive' definitions I concede - but so what? Some of Rannpartis presented examples have had caveats and actual inconsistencies in them - which is not uncommon at all regarding the complicated terminology surrounding the UK and the British Isles. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a dictionary - they are very different things. An encyclopedia needs guidelines in these cases. In Wikipedias case they must be online, as the editors are us!

It seems that the subject is a bit fraught right now, and for my own part I am only just getting back into it after a years absence from Wikipedia (partly at the bequest of someone else, who was clearly getting frustrated) and I not happy at all with this RFC being made at this particular moment in time. But it is... and I urge any new contributors to look a little deeper into the matter, and past what at first might appear "a no brainer". Wikipedia needs a guideline for the a moderate use of the term 'British Isles' (WP:BISLES was created to discuss this) as problems with the term have never gone away. For Wikipedia to advise on using the technical 'archipelago-only' use has always had the best support on Wikipedia. It makes sense, as it lies inbetween those who wish for alternative terms to be used insead of 'British Isles' (like 'Britain and Ireland' or whatever is suitable for the article), and those who want to see 'British Isles' used widely and freely without any consideration being made at all. Matt Lewis (talk) 12:53, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Discussion

Matt, I opened this page on your suggestion: "We can't abandon this matter, so essentially we would be moving this discussion to somewhere else - most likely the talk pages of British Isles." Granted, I didn't open a new section on the BI talk page. I opened a subpage of the British Isles Task Force. Since there is a task force for these matters - and since the question affects multiple pages - that seemed most appropriate.

I also explicitly said that you should be given time to collect your sources and add a statement before it be advertised for wider input: "Before it's advertised anywhere, could you add a statement and sources (as it seems you['re] the strongest advocate of the opposing view to my own)."

Please recant your statement that "opening an RFC at this particular juncture [is] a pushy act to say the least".

For others, the entire discussion is here and the specific exchange is here. --rannṗáirtí anaiṫnid (coṁrá) 13:59, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Oh come one. I merely asked for us not to "sideline" the matter, when you suggested we completely remove the BI Venn diagram from Countries of the United Kingdom. Removing the diagram was not a consensus decision anyway. As you know, I'm happy either way with having the Venn in that article, providing it is a both definition diagram when included (preferably without national flags on it). But plenty of editors want the diagram there, especailly the improved two-definition one made yesterday, I'm sure. But you know this of course, and you don't want to see the diagram improved at British Isles too, so you decided to push along its removal from Countries of the UK, and focus all the discussion in here! Your actions went from supporting your own 'CI-based' replacement version of the diagram, to deciding the diagram wasn't really needed after all, when someone replaced it with set the ball rolling for a 'both definitions' version! That is pretty transparent, as a revert back to your own would clearly have been unsupported. This partisan-begun RFC, in avoiding the British Isles talk page (where further changes would likely occur), could actually be regarded as gaming the system (though it would not the worse case I've seen).

I naturally thought this was an official 'RFC', which is likely to connect fresh faces to your clearly biased appraisals (don't get me working on "no brainer" again). As I told you that I haven't had time to catch up with WP:BITASK (where I assume you made the 'before advertising it..' comment), you should have informed me directly what kind of RFC this actually is!

I also think you rather make my standpoint on the British Isles look like it's an 'opposing' extreme - I do not wish to appear extreme in any way. I just happen to be the one who responded first to Mister Flash's question at Countries of the UK, and then to take your subsequent changes to the Venn diagram to task. My views on the 'BI matter' are actually very moderate. Like most people, I wish that the 'commonname' term for the archipelago didin't have the word 'British' in it, but that's life. Unfortunately some people also use the term interchangeably with (and sometimes in place of) 'British Islands', or the concept of them. But that doesn't mean Wikipedia has to follow suite (ie simply because you can source people using those terms). You must see that it is a form of WP:synthesis to force together so many different contexts and definitions. Some dictionaries may do that, but Wikipedia (an organic encyclopedia) needs to unravel them in this controversial matter, and then decide on an approach to recommend.

I don't like having to keep repeating my arguments when I'm already pushed for time either - despite the extra time you kindly said you'll give me here. You do make me repeat things, and Wikipedians tend to assume we all have all day all the time, which must be so off-putting to those who decide they can't effectively contribute here. Matt Lewis (talk) 17:28, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

A lot of what you write above has merit. It's unfortunate that you didn't take a "moderate" view earlier. It's unfortunate also that can't stop accusing me of dirty tricks in one way or another. It's unfortunate that you persist in trying to politicse this. All those unfortunate things drain wiki-engergy and willingness to co-operate.

So let's just open it to outside views and get it over with. --rannṗáirtí anaiṫnid (coṁrá) 20:04, 1 December 2009 (UTC)