Wikipedia:Village pump (miscellaneous)

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The miscellaneous section of the village pump is used to post messages that do not fit into any other category. Please post on the policy, technical, or proposals pages, or - for assistance - at the help desk, rather than here, if at all appropriate. For general knowledge questions, please use the reference desk.

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We need more New Page Patrollers

As one can see from a thread near the top of WP:VPT, there seem to be a very few people doing the vast majority of NPP right now. Kamkek and I did over 7000 pages from February 1-26 alone), and the same is happening at New Article Review. I can only speak for myself, but I've been attacking around 200+ pages a day to try and keep Special:NewPages from flooding again; the other day, I patrolled about 350 pages. I can handle going at that rate, but Kamkek and I aren't online all the time. It's obvious when neither of us are doing NPP because it backs up very quickly during that time. We badly need one or both of two things. First, we need more people to help us; that way, we might have the time to actually reference that BLP instead of having to cut our losses to keep up with the new pages by BLPPRODding it right away, which is the situation now. Second, there was a proposal some months ago about making editors become autoconfirmed before writing an article. I want to raise this as another possibility; I think this would greatly reduce the number of completely useless pages that turn up every day on Special:NewPages, and simultaneously prevent newbies from feeling bitten because they tried to create a new article that wasn't suitable for Wikipedia, because creating an article now requires a fairly high level of skill (I just created my first article in January, and it took me about an hour to get it together; mind you, the article in question is basically start-class, nothing fancy). This has its drawbacks, the most obvious one being that it removes the instant gratification of being able to create an article right away, but there are solutions to this as well (i.e. promote using AfC). This doesn't seem to neatly fit any of the other Village pumps, so I put it here; if people think this belongs elsewhere, then please say as much. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 04:12, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

I have been thinking of raising a similar proposal, although for a different reason. Some little tests I did show that around 80% of the pages created by new users is deleted. Freaking 80%! I would argue deletion of a page is inherently wp:BITEY, no matter how you bring the message. Even if you userfy the page the newbie is still gonna feel rejected. Combine those two and I can only reach the conclusion we should stop new users from creating pages until they reach autoconfirmed, sending them through some pre-review system like wp:AFC instead. (Note this will not drastically affect the amount of patrolling power needed, it will just move most of the pressure somewhere else). Yoenit (talk) 04:51, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

That's a start; that'll at least ensure things get looked at. But that's only one half of the problem, then; how are we supposed to encourage more people to get involved? The problem with NPP is (as I've said at my newly opened editor review) outside editors only see the plane that crashes. Unlike just about every other part of Wikipedia, there are extremely rigid CSD rules (just look at some of the discussion on WT:CSD if you don't believe me; you'd think IAR said, "If a rule prevents you from improving or maintaining Wikipedia, unless it has to do with CSD, ignore it.") and no matter what you do a lot of people end up not liking you. Vandal fighting can bring, if not adminship, glorification in many corners; NPP gets you just about nothing. We're way overworked right now; that doesn't mean we don't enjoy what we're doing, but we're still way overworked, and we need ways to spread it more evenly. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 06:26, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

That's too much. Maybe we need to find a way of throttling back new page creation? Perhaps a form of "Pending changes" for new pages, to leave new articles created by new accounts in a hopper until they can be vetted?   Will Beback  talk  08:54, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

And there they'll sit gathering dust, the sublime alongside the ridiculous, yet another growing backlog to eliminate. The autoconfirmed proposal seems well worth exploring, though (perhaps in conjunction with a tightening of the requirements for that status). Rivertorch (talk) 09:05, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

Rivertorch is correct — we don't need yet another backlog. In fact, we already have a perfectly good "pending pages" system: Articles for creation. I am in favor of requiring autoconfirmation to create articles; Yoenit's statistics confirmed what we've all known intuitively, but it's still surprising to know that 4/5 of the pages created by new accounts end up deleted. By requiring autoconfirmation, we would not only cut down on the creation of junk pages, but spare the newcomers who might otherwise have their good-faith contributions deleted. The latter factor should not be underestimated: if a new editor receives constructive criticism on AfC that allows them to create a respectable and worthy article, we are far closer to acquiring a new and valuable member of the community than if their page had been unceremoniously purged. Feezo (Talk) 10:59, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

If we're going to go the autoconfirmed route, then I would suggest a total moratorium on non-autoconfirmed editors creating articles, like Feezo. New editors can learn from improving existing articles; that'll be better for everyone, really, on a lot of levels. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 17:30, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

So where do we go from here? It's been a couple days now since anyone's said anything. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 18:03, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

There is a very interesting RFC here on the opposite idea Wikipedia:Wiki Guides/Allow IP editors to create articles. I would say there is enough support to start a {{cent}} listed RFC to see what the larger community thinks about it. Yoenit (talk) 22:43, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

• Support "requiring autoconfirmation to create articles". The years have moved on since creating a stand alone article, over editing existing pages, was a more realistic option for even the most specialised or peculiar newly arriving volunteer. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 02:09, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
• I've supported this idea for years. As a matter of fact I tried to get this done in late 2009. See Wikipedia talk:User access levels/RFC on autoconfirmed status required to create an article, which was closed with no consensus. Beeblebrox (talk) 02:31, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
• Support for the reasons I advance at Wikipedia:Wiki Guides/Allow IP editors to create articles. MER-C 03:07, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
• Comment Wikipedia: The Encyclopedia Anyone on the Autism Scale Capable of Paying Obsessive Attention to Painstaking Minutia and Bureaucratic Detail Can Edit. SmashTheState (talk) 04:31, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

I support the restriction on new page creation (that is not my point though). My point is why don't the New Page Patrollers give any props to the PASSING new pages? The whole thing seems like all stick, no carrot. Look someone has made a new article. If it passes, and the NPP is the first or only one in a while, to look at it, why not make some talk page comment on it. A quick attaboy, even with comments on upgrades (some kinda feedback) would just be good. I'm dead serious. Rethink the whole purpose of NPP! Oh...and I would just lurve it if someone said "dayum" your new page had a source and cats and a bolded first sentence and all...you go gurl! TCO (talk) 07:07, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

If a stumble upon a proper article by a new user I always welcome the new user and give the article a fixup (wikify, categories, typos) if required. To be honest they are quite rare though. Yoenit (talk) 16:07, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Exactly. That just doesn't happen very often; instead, the great majority of pages are deleted, and those that aren't are almost always require a tremendous amount of work to bring up to even a start-class. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 18:56, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Well, so than it wouldn't be much work to give an attaboy to the ones that pass. I've never gotten any positive comments on my stubs that did pass and gotten one (improper) PROD for an article that was a spinout of a section that got too long. I'm not saying to stop being negative to all the failing articles. It's just a mindset change to think about a comment on the passing ones. Or is there something about the psyche of NPPs where they don't care about the new good content coming out?TCO (talk) 06:18, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

It has to do with the fact that, by the nature of NPP, we tend to only get involved in low-quality articles. A decent, well-referenced, wikified article doesn't need any more than the few seconds it takes for us to hit "mark as patrolled", so you do tend to notice the bad ones more because those are the ones needing attention. That said, if I find a decent article from a newbie I will give them a welcome. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 16:45, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

It's a mindset change, but why not make a comment on the good ones from established users as well? You have completely defined yourselves as defenders against vandals, and I'm suggesting to be more holistic. I HEART you for blowing away the crud. honest. NUKE IT. But when I see no interest in the creation...that worries me...TCO (talk) 21:13, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

Why should I be congratulate people every time they create a new article? Should I also congratulate them if they fix 20 typos, add references to 5 BLPs or seriously expand an existing article? We are all here to build an encyclopedia and adding content is part of the job. If we kept congratulating each other for every improvement we would spend most of the time knocking each other senseless and get hardly any work done. I do hand out a barnstar from time to time, but I do so sparingly on purpose. Yoenit (talk) 22:13, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

Find some way to meaningfully engage usin?g your basis of experience in off wiki writing and deep life experience, and on wiki writing. It's only a FEW pages, remember. You should be INTERESTED. TCO (talk) 22:19, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

It's not like I never stop to work on something; I turned Chihiro Iwasaki from Engrish to English, for instance, after coming across it on NPP. In my case, that's because the subjects I tend to be interested in (Ainu and Burmese history) aren't things that come up too much on NPP; my article work and NPP work tend not to mix all that often. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 03:30, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

• Support Long overdue common-sense solution. Less throwaway SPAs making an article about a schoolkid they hate and then disappearing? Less newbies feeling bitten? Less terrible articles? Less spam? Less backlogs? Sounds great! Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 00:29, 15 March 2011 (UTC)
• Question: Are any of the other projects doing this? It might be interesting to know what their experience is. For myself, I reluctantly support autoconfirmation. Five years ago, it would have been a Bad Idea. Now, as a relatively mature project with a steep learning curve, it's perhaps not unreasonable.
  If we decide someday to have a "trial", could I please beg for it to be a prospective trial, with the specific things to be measured declared and discussed far in advance, with specific people publicly agreeing to collect the data by named deadlines, and predicting and publishing in advance the level of activity that would be expected under current rules? So much of the PC trial has relied on subjective opinions. (Randomizing per account would be lovely, but a multi-step cross-over design [autoconfirmation is required every other month for a total of four or six months] might be more manageable and also interesting.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:45, 15 March 2011 (UTC)
• Support I wonder how much NPP has been done by the people behind RFCs like Allow IP editors to create articles and Minimize talk page templates. I occasionally click "Recent changes" and spend a bit of time cleaning up, and my limited experience leaves me with no doubt that 80% of new pages need to be deleted. The solution is not to userfy all bad pages (a suggestion I saw somewhere recently), but to prevent people with no experience from creating a page except through AfC which will provide the necessary guidance. Johnuniq (talk) 10:38, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

  You may have seen the 'userify drafts' proposal at meta:IRC office hours/Office hours 2011-02-24 and meta:IRC office hours/Office hours 2011-03-18. The idea is to put all new pages created by newbies in a pile somewhere (userspace, a new draft namespace) and create special processes around them to a) avoid biting the newbies, but also b) purge the junk semi-automatically. The idea is essentially software-enforced WP:AFC for newbies, however we wish to define newbies. John Vandenberg ^(chat) 05:24, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

  Oh. That sounds a lot better than the unconvincing text at Allow IP editors to create articles. I had another quick look at the links in the first para at that page and did not notice anything like what you outlined (a new "Draft:" namespace please, not userspace; a Draft namespace needs to automatically set NOINDEX and have "This is a draft" or some such at the top so if an outsider is given a link to "this great article at Wikipedia!" they would have a chance of working out that it is not actually an article). I'll take your word for it that the long IRC logs include those suggestions, but no, I had not seen them. I am a bit grumpy about the Wiki Guides RFCs because they look exactly like what I would expect from a PR outfit paid large amounts to produce mission statements for management, but your quick outline presents a much better idea. Johnuniq (talk) 06:39, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose - nobody is irritated by newbie glop more than I am, but this would be a complete undoing of the basic idea of wikipeda, the whole "plunge in, and get better as you go" mindset that has accomplish orders of magnitude more than we thought it would. Crappy, awful pages eventually die or, less often, improve, but in the process they don't really do any harm. It's not like readers can't avoid them and are saying "I will never use wikipedia because I encountered a bad page!" - DavidWBrooks (talk) 11:09, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

The problem is not that crappy articles are created, as we can deal with those quite effectively. The problem is that the newbie editors creating those pages are driven away from wikipedia. Our retention rate among new editors who create a page which is then deleted is 0.63%, while our retention rate is among new editors who start with editing existing pages is 2.6%. (sample set of some 50.000 users, see User:Mr.Z-man/newusers). The "plunge in and get better as you go" mindset has become "plunge in, get your page deleted, a talkpage full of warnings and quit in disgust". Yoenit (talk) 08:20, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

• Support per nom, per support arguments above.  – OhioStandard (talk) 03:11, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
• Support. Unfortunately, this is necessary. NPPers dont want to bite the newbies, but the integrity of the encyclopedia and the rights of living people are more important than the newbies. Our resources are not currently able to cope with the workload, so we need to reduce the workload. IMO we should not allow newbies to create new pages (in mainspace) unless there is a redlink to it which is stable for at least a few days. This depends on Special:Wantedpages, which is 'too inefficient' (last updated 2009-10-12T12:55:54). John Vandenberg ^(chat) 05:15, 21 March 2011 (UTC)
• Support. This wouldn't have made sense years ago, but it makes sense now. We have to figure out how to help new users create articles, instead of the traditional sink-or-swim approach which so easily turns people off (besides the workload involved). I created the Article Wizard because of that, and maybe a year ago (?) I suggested limiting article creation to autoconfirmed, with a getout clause for immediate creation if the user goes via the Article Wizard (which ensures a certain minimum of education). I still think that's a good compromise. Rd232 ^talk 19:05, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

Give new pages longer to develop

Imagine you're using a website for the first time, with a complex interface and strict user rules. You start to create an article. It takes a while for you to figure out how to do headings and formatting. You add a few more sentences. You receive a message saying that you must include references. You follow the link to read what's needed and then search the web for some. Then you try to figure out how to add references, which is strangely complicated. How long has all this taken so far - 30 minutes? Maybe an hour, if you went and had a snack in the middle?

Your page by now has been deleted. Maybe you work out how to use a talk page and send a frustated message to the new page patroller. Maybe you recreate the page - now you get told off for recreating a previously deleted page...

WP:NPP recommends that "A good rule of thumb is to wait until at least 15 minutes after the last edit before tagging the article" How many new users can create an acceptable article in 15 minutes? No wonder 80% are deleted. Either we need to give them much more time, or we should force them to develop new articles in their own user-space until they're acceptable.

Hope it wasn't WP:TLDR. I recognise many of you are friendly to newbies and are working hard on a large backlog. But I think the process currently tends towards biteyness.--Physics is all gnomes (talk) 19:20, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

Agreed. I haven't created too many articles in my time here, but I am a pretty experienced editor, with what I believe is a good grasp of "the rules", and it certainly took more than 15 minutes to create the article. I think we need to extend that recommendation to at least 30 minutes, and to be a bit less itchy on the trigger finger. (BLPs excepted, of course, to avoid potential legal issues.) oknazevad (talk) 19:36, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

Minutes? We are all amateurs here, I would say hours, maybe longer. What's the rush? Britmax (talk) 20:04, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

IMHO - unless the page is a clearly a malicious attack article or BLP violation - that at least 24 hours should pass before any "bitey" templates and particularly speedys are slapped onto a new article. Anything less than 12 hours is definitely biting - the article creator may have done the initial work just before going to bed - just because it's 9 am at your location does not mean it's daytime for the article originator. Of course if it is 9 am in the newbie's time zone he/she is possibly at work and would not be able to respond to that speedy or other "this is a load of crap" template before getting home in the evening. I have personal experience of a speedy being slapped on an article I was just starting, literally while I was typing the second paragraph. Roger (talk) 20:29, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

You obviously aren't seeing things from my end, which is in no way shocking given what I've said above. The vast majority of pages from new users are rightfully deleted; we don't and shouldn't have articles on every MySpace band or retain advertisements for companies. Your "solution" will enable a rather dramatic increase in spam, as businesses will figure out that they can post something for (depending on who's solution we're talking about) 30 minutes to 24 hours here to improve their search engine rankings. Furthermore, it will break our backs on NPP; we don't exactly *need* more to deal with right now, as the section heading should rather clearly indicate. If you don't believe me, try doing NPP for a day and see what we're up against. Also read what I've said above; if it wasn't for Kamkek and I, you'd be up Shit Creek without a paddle. The idea is nice in theory, but it can't possibly work because as much as everyone bitches about us, almost no one can be arsed to actually do it themselves. I've given my view at the abovementioned RfC, and I'd also suggest that not every user comes here wanting to create an article straight away. I started because I saw minor grammar issues that bothered me, and I wanted to be able to fix them- I didn't create my first article until I was here almost 11 months. Maybe, just once, we could assume that not everyone wants to create an article from the get-go, and that the perceived biteyness from raising the bar to autoconfirmed won't affect nearly as many newbies as people seem to think. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 04:37, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

^^ I agree with Northern. New page patrollers don't need instruction creep, and the vast majority of articles that are speedied are copyright violations, clearly unnotable, etc. It is unlikely that an article will get deleted in 15 minutes due to "incorrect headings" or not understanding how to make references show up. Also, please see WP:KITTENS.AerobicFox (talk) 05:57, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

"If you don't believe me, try doing NPP for a day and see what we're up against." Fair enough, challenge accepted. I feel quite strongly about this, but maybe I'll be proved wrong. At any rate, I'll be able to come up with a more workable solution once I've seen the issue from both points of view.--Physics is all gnomes (talk) 14:29, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

I'm not really understanding objections to the idea that new articles should be given more time. It's not any more or less work to process the same stream of articles 24 hours later, it just shifts it in time, e.g. this link gives all new articles exactly 24 hours at the time of this comment. It's quite rare that any article, whether a copyvio, BLP, or whatever, can do enough damage in 24 hours that we really have to worry about checking the brand new ones. After all, many copyvios and BLPs are detected months or years after creation, and the sky hasn't fallen yet. Dcoetzee 03:32, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

I'm absolutely with Dcoetzee on this. When we started Wikipedia we didn't have 15 minutes to sort an article out, it was more like 15 weeks. At that time our list of editors was growing exponentially. Now it's not. Is there some connection? I wouldn't be surprised. So I'd be inclined to rewrite the NPP guidelines replacing every occurrence of minutes with days. But I'm prepared to compromise if necessary and replace minutes with hours instead. Having said that I don't want to knock the good work that New Page Patrollers are doing. I've done my share in the early days. But we all know that there's a difference between absolute crap and good content with crap formatting and no citations. The trick is to speedily delete the former and improve the latter, or tag it for improvement. -- Derek Ross | Talk 04:42, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

That distinction is what makes NPP so hard to get into. It takes a few months to figure out when a wikify tag works and when it should be speedied under G1, and it definitely takes a few mistakes to find what the threshold for "credible assertion of notability" in A7/A9 is. Vandalism is much more straightforward; NPP not so much. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 14:58, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

Not a BLP violation, hoax, copyright violation, or any of the other extreme speedies... but why should we wait 24 hours or longer (or even 30 minutes) to tag and/or delete e.g. Pokehearts? Fram (talk) 15:32, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

Exactly, the whole point of CSD is that those are the cases where there is no hope for the article anyway, for everything else we have AFD/PROD. Deletion is Bitey anyway, whether it is done after 5 minutes, 24 hours, or two weeks. The solution is to stop those crappy articles being created, not to let them linger for a bit longer before killing them. Yoenit (talk) 15:56, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

There are many experts at NPP that are doing an incredible job and I wish to thank them all. There are also many less experienced people at NPP that are working very hard and doing some good work, but occasionally somebody jumps the gun and good articles are misjudged. removed example as I don't want to single out a small mistake from a good user It was speedied less than 60 seconds after it was created. Luckily it was declined and is now a decent stub, but things like this happen all the time. Mistakes like this unfortunately have given Wikipedia a bitey reputation in the media and to the general public. Just to reiterate, the majority if CSDs are proper and the community thanks those users that are working their butts off. What's trying to be addressed here are the few mistakes that give us a bad reputation, not the good work that everybody does. Thanks. - Hydroxonium (T•C•V) 04:32, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

I am one of the editors who has been correctly criticised for jumping the gun and WP:CSD-ing articles against policy, before they are given a chance. I'm fine for my contributions to be examined for the purposes of this discussion. --Shirt58 (talk) 10:11, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

Orphan Talk Pages

I have discovered three talk pages with no associated articles.

Discrete computer was deleted and redirected to Computer, but Talk:Discrete computer was left in place with no pages linking to it.

Ultrahard fullerite was deleted and redirected to Aggregated diamond nanorod, but Talk:Ultrahard fullerite was left in place with no pages linking to it.

Weak-field approximation was deleted and redirected to Linearized gravity, but Talk:Weak-field approximation was left in place with no pages linking to it.

Should these orphan talk pages be deleted, and if so, what is the procedure for doing that? WP:PROD? WP:AFD?

If these should be deleted, is there a way to find all such orphans? If I found three, there may be many more out there, and there is no way for anyone to reach them unless they type in the page name. Guy Macon (talk) 21:09, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

They qualify for speedy deletion under WP:CSD#G8. ▫ JohnnyMrNinja 21:12, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

If the associated article is a redlink (rather than a redirect) you can tag with {{db-g8}}. But in the cases you refer to the talk page is still relevant to the redirect page. – ukexpat (talk) 21:16, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

I don't see how a 2006 discussion about a now-deleted page on discrete computers - a page that cannot be accessed from anywhere else on Wikipedia - is relevant to a 2011 page about computers. How would anyone editing Computer even know that Talk:Discrete computer exists? Guy Macon (talk) 21:42, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

The page is not deleted, merely redirected. Is there a reason why the talk page should not be redirected as well? The discussions on that talk page are about content that is still visible in the page history for those who wish to look. Reach Out to the Truth 22:38, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

As stated above, orphan talk pages can and should be speedy deleted per WP:CSD#G8:

"Such as talk pages with no corresponding subject page"

AerobicFox (talk) 21:48, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

I just CSD G8 tagged all three. Thanks! Guy Macon (talk) 22:02, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

I've restored those pages; they should never have been speedy deleted because the history of their corresponding article pages is still intact. They are harmless; just leave them there. If all of these kinds of pages were deleted, we would lose a lot of historical discussions. Graham87 03:23, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

I usually move talk pages orphaned by a move to a subpage of the new talk page and add a link to the archive list. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk 20:15, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

Redundant Article and Read tabs

• OK, so I'm stupid. Why is there both an "Article" and a "Read" tab atop the page, when they... you know... do exactly the same thing? GlitchCraft (talk) 02:54, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

Well, on the talk page, the "Read" tab points to the talk page. Which is still redundant there, but makes it different from the article tab. The point, I believe, is that the two tabs on the left are for toggling between the article and it's talk page, while the three on the right (along with the star for adding it to your watchlist) are for things you can do with the page your on, namely read it, edit it of view its history. That's why they are in separate groups. oknazevad (talk) 05:44, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

But it is still redundant, no matter what page you are looking at. So we have a redundant tab whose sole function is to contribute a (misplaced) sense of fullness and balance to the organization of the tabs... I think. GlitchCraft (talk) 06:12, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

I like the way the tabs are currently arranged. Just because the standard viewing mode is "read" does not mean the tab is redundant. Going from edit/history mode to read is a lot more intuitive than clicking the article tag. Yoenit (talk) 22:53, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

As far as I can tell, you are only saying that you think labeling the tab "Read" is a lot more intuitive than labeling it "Article". So..... keep only one, and label it "Read". No need for two. Redundant. GlitchCraft (talk) 23:44, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

So how would you switch from the talk page to the article page then? With a button labeled read? Yoenit (talk) 00:36, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

My point is this: Label the button anything you like. Call it macaroni. But it's poor design to have two buttons that do the same thing so very close to each other, just because we can't make up our minds what to label the button. GlitchCraft (talk) 01:29, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Maybe I am stupid, but what difference does it make if there are two buttons that do the same thing? 67.162.249.232 (talk) 01:56, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Hello! The "read" tab is not for switching between an article and it's talk page. It is for switching between reading a page and editing a page. It's not the same thing as the "article" tab at all. Beeblebrox (talk) 02:13, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

No, that's what the "Edit" tab is for, surely. There's also a "New section" tab which is for editing, but the difference between the "Edit" and "new section" (and there is a difference) is a meaningful & useful one. Meanwhile, I am not aware of any difference btw "Article" (which sometimes shows as "Project page" etc., depending on the page you are viewing) and "Read". GlitchCraft (talk) 03:49, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Use the Classic skin like those of us who have been editing for the last ten years and your problem will literally disappear along with the tabs. -- Derek Ross | Talk 04:04, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

That would hide the problem from my eyes, but wouldn't solve it. ;-) GlitchCraft (talk) 05:40, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

I understand that there are 2 different tabs that do the same thing, what I don't understand is why is that a problem. 67.162.249.232 (talk) 12:40, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Poor design. Annoying. Misleading. Waste of real estate on the page. Just plain pointless and therefore unwanted. Take your pick.... It is intuitively misleading to have two tabs with two different labels that perform precisely the same function (especially when they are so close together); it implies that there are two different functions. It looks dumb, therefore.GlitchCraft (talk) 12:52, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

So there really isn't a problem, it is just that you don't like it. 67.162.249.232 (talk) 13:18, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

The buttons do not have "precisely the same function" as has been explained repeatedly. The tabs on the right switch between read/edit/history for whatever page you're currently on. The tabs on the left switch between the article/talk pages of the page you're at. On a purely technical sense the read tab does link to the same place as the article/talk tab depending on which page you're on. But the technical function is irrelevant, what matters is how it appears to users. The argument that it's a waste of real estate is just nonsense. If the tab wasn't there, there would just be more blank space between the tabs. Mr.Z-man 15:52, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

• Try an experiment; it will prove you're wrong. Regardles of what page you're on, whether it's an article or a talk page or Wikispace or whatever, try clicking first the Read tab and then the far left tab (on the page where we are now, that tab reads "Project page"). Then click the "Read" tab again. Then click the far left tab again. Then click the Read tab. And so on, ad nauseum. Here's a little spoiler: absolutely nothing will happen. Absolutely nothing will change. The extra tab doesn't provide any extra help moving back and forth between Talk and the project page or Article; The Project page or Article tab already fulfills that function adequately. So we have a tab that does absolutely nothing. If that isn't poor design, then I'm Phyllis Diller. GlitchCraft (talk) 11:58, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

Don't tell anybody ms. Diller, but clicking the Wikipedia logo in the top left and the main page button below it both lead to the main page. Also, there is an "about wikipedia" button on the left and one on the bottom, while the "Terms of Use" are linked twice below my edit box. Clearly those were not added with usability in mind, but are part of an evil conspiracy to reduce the amount of whitespace on wikipedia. Yoenit (talk) 12:31, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

• The globe is not labeled as a link. Moreover, all those links you mentioned are located on the periphery of the page. They are small and peripheral. They are not situated in areas that are designed to direct the main functions of Wikipedia viewing and editing. Redundancy serves a function in the periphery of the page, because folks might miss one or the other of those links, and so the extras are helpful. Redundancy in the periphery is not misleading; in fact, it is beneficial.. OTOH, this redundant "Read" is is up front and center, and located in an area explicitly given over to the purpose of directing editing activities... Your statement concedes my contention that the tab serves no real purpose. GlitchCraft (talk) 14:02, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

No, if you're on a talk page, the read tab will keep you on the talk page, the far left tab will bring you to the corresponding article. The read tab is (on technical function basis) redundant to one of the two left tabs, but which one depends on whether you're on a talk page or not. The read tab is not designed for switching between talk/article, that's what the left tabs are for. The read/edit/history are designed for switching between read/edit/history views. Mr.Z-man.sock (talk) 14:56, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

basically the tabs on the left help you know which page your own, the tab on the right shows you what you can see from that page, such as simply reading it or editing it (if there's no section or you would like to edit the opening paragraph). for example, if i want to see the history, the page on the left helps me see which history i'm looking at. either the main page or the talk page. it's not redundant.Bread Ninja (talk) 16:17, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

• The tabs on the left are for navigating back and forth from Talk to (article or project or whatever). That's excellent. Left side = navigation between views. Easy to remember. The tabs on the right are for "under the hood" stuff... implementation details... editing and viewing history. Excellent. Right side = implementation. Easy to remember. Those four (sometimes 5) tabs are all we need, end of story.
• So, if you are on the talk page and want to switch to the article page (or vice versa), there's a navigation tab on the left to do so. Easy as pie; clear as a sunny blue sky. If you want to go "under the hood", there's a tab on the right that is appropriate. For example, if you want to edit the entire page, there's a tab marked "Edit". If you want to edit, but only want to edit in a new section, there's a tab called "New section" or "+". If you want to look at the history of the page, its tab is also clearly labelled. Easy as pie; clear as a sunny blue sky.
• Look. People have been deriding me for daring to mention whitespace/real estate, which shows poor manners etc., but I was just talking off the top of my head. The real problems are these: 1) It misleads the users into believing it offers some unique or useful functionality, and 2) there is just no stinking need for it. Unlike other links repeated on the periphery of the page, there is no way anyone could miss these links (see my response to Yoenit above), so duplicating the functionality of one tab in another tab of a different name offers absolutely nothing. So why deliberately add a useless and misleading thing? GlitchCraft (talk) 00:10, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

• it's easier to move to read if your cursor is already near edit or view history. and it does serve a purpose, but it's automatically in use.Bread Ninja (talk) 00:15, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

• You're arguing that we want to spare editors the effort of having to move their mouse about one centimeter or so, even though both tabs are in the same area, and both are impossible to overlook? That's a new and unique argument. GlitchCraft (talk) 00:19, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

• no, i'm saying it serves a purpose. and they're not really in the same area, one is top left the other is top right. really, it seems too trivial to even argue.Bread Ninja (talk) 00:22, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

• I have shown that your "it's closer" argument is invalid. I have explained very carefully and in great detail why that tab does not serve any useful purpose, providing clear examples that anyone can follow on their own computer. You simply assert that it does serve a purpose, and the fact that you say it does constitutes your entire argument... ummm.... how should I respond?GlitchCraft (talk) 01:05, 15 March 2011 (UTC)
• i'm not playing nice anymore. be blunt with me, or don't bother talking back. i said it's useful, but it's also too trivial to argue for it to be kept. it's nothing like affecting articles from reaching GA status or featured. so why should it pother me so much? why does it bother you so much? just because you assume it's insignificant? well no matter what it serves some purpose, saying it doesn't is ignoring the facts.Bread Ninja (talk) 01:09, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

• I will continue to play nice. I am being blunt with you. Look... here we have a feature in the user interface. I have argued that it is unnecessary and misleading. I have provided detailed support for my argument. The way for you to respond is to provide detailed support for your argument. If you can't do that, then you will only grow increasingly frustrated if you continue to argue, and that scenario could very well cause you to fall back on teeth gnashing, name calling, etc. As for "it's not important", well, I couldn't disagree more. The user interface is a significant factor in newcomers' stay/not stay decision. The user interface plays an important role in every editing task imaginable (well, unless using AWB or whatever). If the interface is trivial, why did we switch from Monobook to Vector? we did so because the interface is not trivial. That's about it... GlitchCraft (talk) 01:19, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

• not really. and misleading? not that much. and if you have proof that it is, please get a significant number of new users that have previously complained about it. it isn't misleading because it's already on that tab. i'm just saying that you're overreacting to the littlest thing that does eserve some purpose, but you refuse to see it.Bread Ninja (talk) 12:21, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

Just a general observation, each side in this discussion believes in their position and that they have explained why their position is right. The problem is that neither side has convinced the other side. From the status of the conversation I don't see that happening. GB fan (talk) 12:44, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

• Well, first, a) No one has shown that the tab does anything that is not already done by other tabs (because it doesn't). Second, b) No one has explained that having two tabs that do exactly the same so close together in a very prominent area serves any useful purpose (because it doesn't). [I say that because have duplicated links in different areas of the periphery of the page makes much more sense... they are much, much farther apart, and one or the other could be overlooked.. ]... But whatever. I can't argue with people who have no ammunition other than constant, unsupported (unsupportable) assertions. Unwatching. Have a nice day. GlitchCraft (talk) 01:12, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

Someone please write an article on the recovery of the American alligator

This topic, is well, well, WELL notable. There are a bazillion RSes on it (GIYF). I would do it myself, but I feel like there is so much to do. Someone please write this article. I will {{hug}} you if you do. I tried going over to the request an article desk, but I can't make head or tails of how you actually POST THE REQUEST there.

Oh...and yeah, there is a section in American alligator on this topic, but it is unsourced and REALLY this is a big enough topic to be an article. Have been documentaries and all on this. It's famous. We need a full article and that thing can stay a section. Umm...and maybe get some refs. TCO (talk) 06:59, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

You've been here since 2008. Do what Wikipedians do: Enlist the aid of a WikiProject, and then {{sofixit}}. It will probably be fun... GlitchCraft (talk) 07:31, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

The only project that exists is (maybe) Milhist.TCO (talk) 08:53, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

In your edit summary, which says "{{sobiteme}}", I will WP:AGF and assume that you were indicating that I had WP:BITTEN you. If that's the case, then I apologize. If, OTOH, you were employing an extremely common, vulgar and dismissive interjection, then perhaps you should apologize... Meanwhile, you are a member of Wikipedia:WikiProject Amphibians and Reptiles. I don't see a post on their talk page regarding this. I do see a few familiar names, such as User:Ucucha & User:Enlil Ninlil, plus I see some who have the general air of at least some level of expertise. perhaps contacting them would be a good first step. There's also Google Books, Google Scholar etc. as easily accessible resources... GlitchCraft (talk) 09:13, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

I might help out too. Steve Dufour (talk) 12:13, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

Daily Pictures

Why are there so many pictures from Australia and especially Tasmania? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.11.219.190 (talk) 21:34, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Audit Subcommittee appointments: Invitation to comment on candidates

The Arbitration Committee is seeking to appoint at least three non-arbitrator members to the Audit Subcommittee, and is now seeking comments from the community regarding the candidates who have volunteered for this role.

Interested parties are invited to review the appointments page containing the nomination statements supplied by the candidates and their answers to a few standard questions. Community members may also pose additional questions and submit comments about the candidates on the individual nomination subpages or privately via email to to arbcom-en-b@lists.wikimedia.org.

Following the consultation phase, the committee will take into account the answers provided by the candidates to the questions and the comments offered by the community (both publicly and privately) along with any other relevant factors before making a final decision regarding appointments.

The consultation phase is scheduled to end 23:59, 21 March 2011 (UTC), and the appointments are scheduled to be announced by 31 March 2011.

For the Arbitration Committee, –xeno^talk 00:00, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

Discuss this

Lists of non-English actors

1. List of non-English Total Drama voice actors
2. List of non-English Phineas and Ferb voice actors
3. List of non-English Family Guy voice actors
4. List of non-English Ed, Edd n Eddy voice actors
5. List of non-English SpongeBob SquarePants voice actors

Are these really notable intersections? Why not list all the actors? The first two were created recently by the same editor, and the third is from 2009. Feezo (Talk) 11:47, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

Looking at these pages, these are lists of the actors who dub these cartoons in other languages. Seems like a reasonable topic for a list article; they certainly would be too long for a section on the main series article.

Honestly, I'm not sure what your concerns are. The choice of "intersection" in your comment reminds me of a CfD discussion, but these aren't categories. And what do you mean by "all actors"? The lists look pretty comprehensive. If you mean the English-language casts, they're already included in the main series article, which is more than appropriate as these series are originally written and produced using the English language. oknazevad (talk) 14:00, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

Wow, those page titles are not helpful at all. I read them as "people on the Family Guy show who aren't British" and not as "voice-over actors for Family Guy in other countries." Should they be given a more informative name? Aristophanes68 (talk) 16:44, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

Possibly. At the very least, it should use "non-English language" so there's nonpotential confusion with the English nationality, as you thought. oknazevad (talk) 18:49, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

I read the titles in the same way as Aristophanes68; oknazevad's suggestion would fix the issue. Feezo (Talk) 03:18, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

So what's the best way to do this--speedy rename? Or do we first need to hold discussions on each of those pages? I'm with oknazevad's suggestion of adding the word "language" as the simplest solution. Aristophanes68 (talk) 17:09, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

• Oh, I see it's already been done. Thanks! Aristophanes68 (talk) 06:25, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

Where's the direct link to the search page?

There used to be a link in the left-hand menu that took us directly to a search page, which would list all the relevant results, unlike the search box, which takes you directly to an existing article. I know that I can get to the search page by using the search box to find a non-existent page, but I'm wondering if there's not a direct link to the main search page. There are times when I want to search for terms so that I can link them to the relevant article, but I have to force the search box to take me to the search page before I can do that. Where did that direct link go? Is is still there and I'm just not seeing it? Thanks, Aristophanes68 (talk) 16:41, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

Maybe an example would help: Today I wanted to see how many articles use the term "Filipina" but when I type Filipina in the search box, I get redirected to Filipino people, so that I can't see if other pages use the term without first searching for a term I know doesn't have a page, like Filipina people. Once I'm on that page, I can search to my heart's content, but it's getting there that's not easy. (By the way, the answer to my question is that there are several pages that use the term "Filipina", but I only know that because I found the direct search engine page and didn't stop with the search box, which is next to useless in these kinds of situations.) Aristophanes68 (talk) 06:18, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

I think it's at Special:Search. - Hydroxonium (T•C•V) 17:26, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

Ah, thanks. Still, it'd be nice if that link were more easily available in the left-hand menu. Aristophanes68 (talk) 17:29, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

I think you're also missing some of the functionality that the search box offers - although said functionality works in firefox, not in safari, and I don't know about IE. Enter a search term such as Ant, and the search box provides a drop down list of suggestions. At the top will be Ant; selecting this to search on will take you to the ant page. At the bottom of the list, you'll see an option for containing ant. Choose that latter option, and you get the "all relevant results" rather than being taken to the ant page. As it's a) subtle and b) browser specific, it's easy to be unaware of it. --Tagishsimon (talk) 18:29, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

D'oh!!! I have never even noticed that before. It's exactly what I was missing from the left-hand menu. Thanks so much! Aristophanes68 (talk) 18:35, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

US National Archives Wikipedian-in-Residence opportunity

Just officially announced...

"This summer, we hope to strengthen our institutional relationship with the Wikipedian community by hosting a Wikipedian in Residence. We are currently seeking applications for this student position for the 2011 summer. The Wikipedian will gain an insider’s look into the National Archives and develop an appreciation for the records and resources we have available." — US Archivist David Ferriero

This is a summer intern position, with stipend, for a student to work at NARA 2 in College Park, Maryland.

Full blog post and

• Full blog post - by David Ferriero
• Application + details (pdf)

Please spread the word and encourage all good candidates to apply. Cheers. --Aude (talk) 21:35, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

Chinese-language-capable assistance on China-related Spaceflight articles

Hi. I am a member of WikiProject Spaceflight and would like to improve the generally inadequate coverage and poor article quality on the Chinese national space program, as noted here.

I think it could be quite helpful to find Chinese-language-capable space geeks to help in this effort. Specifically, if space-interested, Chinese-conversant, folk are available, but perhaps lack the English-language facility to care to significantly edit the English Wikipedia, then it might be very useful to form a partnership between people with different skill sets. For example, I know very little Chinese beyond basic pleasantries, but will edit spaceflight articles extensively if I have good sources, and very much want to improve the coverage of this important emerging national space program (and especially get better coverage of the Chinese space station which will begin to launch this year).

Where is a good place to post requests for help for folks with Chinese-language skills and China-space interest? N2e (talk) 23:41, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

The Wikipedia:China-related topics notice board would seem to be a good place to start. You could also look for an active editor in Category:user zh. Thryduulf (talk) 17:18, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

choosing FA(s) from different languages as a representative article

I needs your help, especially the help from those who can use multi-language. I am trying to assess the featured articles across diverse languages on Wikipedia in order to find what factors affect the difference of the quality of the featured articels by language.

As you know, I cannot manually evaluate all featured articles from diverse Wikipedia languages because the total number of featured article approved over all the languages reaches thousands. I need to select a representative that explains the quality of the featured article group of each language on Wikipedia as a sample for the quality evaluation.

I established the criteria for selecting the sample as follows:

• Not translated, that is the representative article does not use other language source as reference as less as possible
• concerns history, particularly historical person whom most sources about was written in its own language
• When a language does not have a featured article satisfying the criterion above, the article from other topic, for example geography can be a representative article for the test.
• When a language has more than one article meeting with the criteria above, the best quality article is preferable

I have found the representative article candidates for each language as seen in the table below. Please give me your opinion on the candidate list, and the advice for updating the list if you know the better one for candidate for what I try to do, with short explanation of why you recommend the new article. cooldenny (talk) 03:57, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

long table with articles

language candidate English Robert Sterling Yard German Ostfriesland zur Zeit des Dreißigjährigen Krieges Spanish Momia de Mánchester French Benoît de Boigne Hebrew יוסף רוזנבלט Italian Regno di Napoli Hungarian II. Fülöp Ágost francia király Polish Zofia Jagiellonka (1464-1512) Russian Изабелла Баварская Catalan Edgar Degas Portuguese Guerra de Granada Swedish Josefina av Leuchtenberg Finnish Malmedyn verilöyly Croatian Andrija Mohorovičić Vietnamese Lê Đại Hành Dutch Vergissing van Troelstra Georgian განმანათლებლობა Slovenian Anton Podbevšek Esperanto Edvard Beneš Chinese 林则徐 Afrikaans Cetshwayo Norwegian (Bokmål) Magnus Berrføtt Ukrainian Український військовий клуб імені гетьмана Павла Полуботка Basque Bigarren Mundu Gerra Romanian Vincent-Marie de Vaublanc Indonesian Cut Nyak Dhien Bulgarian Дойран Turkish Ankara (isim) Serbian Опсада Београда (1456) Arabic عبد السلام عارف Japanese 源義経 Czech První bulharská říše Thai พระเมรุมาศ Bosnian Visoko Malay Mahathir bin Mohamad Malayalam എം.എസ്. സുബ്ബലക്ഷ്മി Slovak Pavel Jozef Šafárik Korean 여운형 Greek Ανδρέας Μιαούλης Austrian Antón de Marirreguera Limburgian Kölle Latin Gaius Iulius Caesar Javanese Pramoedya Ananta Toer Norwegian (Nynorsk) Den austerrikske arvefølgjekrigen Urdu سلیمان اعظم Simple English Billy Graham Belarusian (Taraškievica) Максім Багдановіч Latvian Ģibuļu pagasts Serbo-Croatian Goli otok Telugu NA Interlingua Carl von Linné Tagalog Jigme Khesar Namgyel Wangchuck Danish Østrig Aragonese NA Cantonese 中國史 Lithuanian NA Yiddish NA Tamil NA Albanian NA Icelandic NA yo:Wikipedia:Àyọkà_pàtàkì Yuruba NA Uzbek NA Walloon NA Bengali NA Estonian NA Silesian NA Azeri NA Occitan NA

It is unclear to me what your intention exactly is or why you use those criteria, but if you want to compare featured articles between languages I would select articles which were promoted at the same time. On english wikipedia standards for featured articles have been changing and a 3 year old FA is not comparable to one that was promoted a month ago. I would select for example the first historical article which was promoted since 1 January 2011 for every language. Yoenit (talk) 12:17, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

I may also point that the FA criteria (or by how much it is actually enforced with nominations) may not be similar to ours, and an article accepted as featured at another wiki may not be accepted even as a good one here. For example, there is a rule here of referencing with footnotes at least every paragraph. In the Spanish wikipedia, this rule was proposed and rejected (and, if it was enforced, more than half of their FA would be demoted) MBelgrano (talk) 12:32, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

Yoenit, you showed me a good point. Your method of choosing the first historical article which was promoted since 1 2011 for every language is another good method of choosing a representative for each language. However, I cannot read some languages at all, so I cannot find when a FA was promoted on some language Wikipedias by myself. cooldenny (talk) 14:40, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

MBelgrano, you gave me an interesting case of Spanish version, which rejected the rule of referencing with footnotes at least every paragraph. The reason I try to compare FAs across many language Wikipedias is on that. As you know, almost all contents of encyclopedia must be made of the materials from reliable sources with suitable attribution. However, some language versions have been ignoring the basic rule. As a result, the quality of the language versions could not improve even though the number of articles and users of the versions increase. cooldenny (talk) 14:40, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

Verifiability is a standard that the English Wikipedia has imposed on itself. If we (lost our minds and) chose to, we could eliminate that standard. The fact that the English Wikipedia's community chose this standard does not mean that other WMF communities are required to follow the same standard. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:19, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for your good advice, WhatamIdoing. Your opinion is absolutely right. As you said, the fact that the English Wikipedia's community chose verifiability standard does not mean that other WMF communities are required to follow the same standard. Choosing the standard is up to each WMF community. However, we can guess that the quality of articles of each WMF depends on whether or not the WMF communities accepts the standard or other standards about encyclopedia editing. Thus I would like to show the relationship between the quality and editing standards in a WMF. cooldenny (talk) 14:32, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

Does wikipedia do anything about sites which have copied its material without attribution?

I have recently found a website for an artistic roller skating club which has a section about their sport. The problem is that they have cut and pasted the Wikipedia article on artistic roller skating without giving Wikipedia the credit. Is there anyone in Wikipedia who deals with this?

The website is http://www.meridianrsc.co.uk/aboutas.html which is a direct copy of the wiki article on artistic roller skating Molybdomancer (talk) 19:01, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

There are some suggestions on how to deal with it at Wikipedia:Mirrors_and_Forks#Non-compliance_process. Hut 8.5 19:24, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

It's difficult to take action because the copyright holder (the author) of the content has to take an interest, and they rarely do. WMF cannot enforce copyright of any content on Wikipedia except for the logos. Dcoetzee 03:26, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

I have seen picture books in bookstores where the text is WP articles. Steve Dufour (talk) 06:00, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

I'm not a lawyer, but do we need to satisfy some type of due diligence clause to maintain the Wikipedia copyright status? We could create a form letter that editors can fill out, add to a queue for administrative verification, have the letter dispatched to the site in question, then log the action for future use.—RJH (talk) 17:46, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

There is no such requirement that I'm aware of, although enforceability of the license has not been tested (much) in court. I'm not a lawyer either.--Chaser (talk) 19:50, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

That rule is about trademarks, which must be defended. Copyright owners can permit unlicensed copies completely at their whim, without losing their rights. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:21, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

I never got that ... the author of the piece. Given all the changes articles go through, who the heck is the author? I think its a dodge than rather say... we dont care about it ... After all, they are supposed to credit WP, not the "author." Honestly I dont lose sleep over it, but it would be nice to see credit where credit is due.Thelmadatter (talk) 20:10, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

Actually mirror sites are required by the GFDL or CC licence to credit every single person who has contributed to each article that they mirror. The simplest way of doing that for them is to link back to Wikipedia where the article history is kept but in principle they don't have to link back provided that they display their own list of the contributors who jointly wrote the article as required by the licences. Even Wikipedia itself does not own the copyright to its articles except inasfar as that is allowed by the GFDL and CC licences. The ultimate copyright for each article is jointly owned by the contributors to the article. For the roller skating article which you give as an example, it would be necessary for one or more of the contributors to that article to write to the club concerned and complain. Wikipedia itself is not in a position to do so. -- Derek Ross | Talk 21:48, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

• When I contribute to WP I want to contribute some information to the public. If someone copies that it doesn't hurt me in any way, so I don't see why I would want to be involved in some complaint. Wolfview (talk) 22:25, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

If you want to formalize that, you can add a template like {{userpd}} to your userpage to release your conributions into the public domain. Feezo (Talk) 22:42, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. I will do that.Wolfview (talk) 02:01, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

A search on Special:ListUser

I did a search on the user list page and i came across a couple of users in which the date they were created are not listed. They seemed to be dormant accounts. Anyone know why this is? For example, Button. Simply south...... 23:28, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

Accounts which were created very early in Wikipedia's history do not have a creation date attached to them - I believe the dates have been logged since 2005. --Kateshortforbob _talk 13:12, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

Copyvio report impossible

I just met my first "possible copyvio". I am a serious editor, and I could not find a single template to make a note. A horror, and I am not invited to notify a copyvio ever again. See Braille embosser. -DePiep (talk) 20:58, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

I think Wikipedia:Cv101 is a good guide to the basics of dealing with suspected copyvio's. I must admit it seems complex, but then it probably needs to be to deal with the different possible cases - and we need to consider legal implications. AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:44, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

Thank you. I came across that one too when browsing. My point stays: I know what editing is, and when I encounter a possible copyvio (no small matter), I don't get a clue. Not a clue. -DePiep (talk) 22:06, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

To be clear: I am not asking what is a copy-vio. I am asking: why do I not find the right template/procedure/help. -DePiep (talk)

Are you asking what templates to use to post to WP:CP, or how to indicate the copyvio on the article's page itself? Corvus cornix_talk 22:38, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

Good Q, cornix. It's not about what template to use. It is: how to find the right template at all. And then, there is the procedure. I do can put a page for deletion at AfD and win, thank you, but to notify a possible copyvio -- no way. -DePiep (talk) 23:01, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

You go to wp:Copyright Problems, then you see the "instructions" section (wp:CPI). After that it should be trivial if you can do AFD. Which part of this was causing you problems? Yoenit (talk) 23:35, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

Well, the fact that I am here and still have a Q says it. I am saying: I know that copyvio is relevant, and I cannot get to the right place, let alone procedure. Or: the Help does not exist. (Really, do NOT explain here where to find my template. Nor where I can find the Help). My Q is: why did I not find it? -DePiep (talk) 00:52, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps because you have never made it easier to find? After all, this is wikipedia, where we're supposed to do things ourselves, not complain that others haven't done them already for us. - DavidWBrooks (talk) 01:26, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

Nice trick, DavidWBrooks. So we're not a community at all. If problem, solve it yourself. -DePiep (talk) 01:46, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

I'm still not sure what exactly you're asking. If you want to report a user, there's Wikipedia:Contributor copyright investigations. And Yoenit showed you how to report a page. The procedures you keep asking about are all listed at the Wikipedia:Cv101 page posted above. Or are you wanting an easily-accessible drop-down template on the edit page? Aristophanes68 (talk) 02:01, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I don't know why you didn't find it. I don't know what you tried. But if you type "Wikipedia:Copyright" in the search bar, it takes to you to the policy, which includes a sidebar with a number of helpful links, including one that's labeled "Copyright assistance". Wikipedia:Copyright assistance is also full of helpful links, including one of "Wikipedia:Copyright violations if you feel your copyrighted material has been improperly used and you want to ask, discuss, complain, or have it rapidly removed." Even if you just type "copyright" into the search engine, our article includes a link to that same policy, while Help:Copyright offers a link to the policy or the Copyright assistance subpage. Meanwhile, if you type "template:copyright" into the search engine, it takes you to {{Copyvio}}, which tells you exactly what to do. If you explain what you tried, maybe we can devise ways to make sure that others who try the same avenues meet with better success. --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 02:11, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

I'm still not sure what exactly you're asking: me neither. If I knew what I was looking for, I'd have found that. But. That is the point. I find a possible copyright violation, first time in my life. I want to tag it, so I type "WP:copyright". Please join me. That page opens with an "OK"-thing,because it has to do with legal stuff (why the green OK-notch?). Below, there is a big area of warnings on red, not for me. Then, 2 pages down, there is a TOC. Even if I care to read the TOC, it's nonsense to me & what I am there for. This is only the best link you provide, and I could have think of. (Again) I am not here to ask for specific help. I say: why does not even a moderate editor like me can find their way. Even the best editors in town keep saying look there. Instead of: OK, our Help & guidance is way below. -DePiep (talk) 02:44, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

And oh yes I saw {{Wikipedia copyright}}. None of the relevant links are useful (try 'General assistance''General help' or 'Copyright assistance' - for fun). (after (edit conflict)) -DePiep (talk) 03:07, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

You saw Processes: Suspected copyright violations, Copyright problems, Possibly unfree files, Contributor copyright investigations but you didn't think any of them were useful? I am not understanding something. Rmhermen (talk) 03:10, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

Most likely, I saw them all. Read all the pages. Clicked all the links (now we are at a 100 pages). And yes, still I did not get it. Any idea why I did not? -DePiep (talk) 03:17, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

No, no idea. You typed in Wikipedia:Copyright, it gave you a sidebar including Copyright problems which says in its first line that this is the page you need. The table of contents has a instruction section. That is two pages, not 100. If you went WP:Copyright, Suspected copyright violations, its first line directs you to Copyright problems, that's 3 pages, not 100. Rmhermen (talk) 03:28, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

Ah, after WP:Copyright I should have skipped the (red background) Important note:. Then I click "Copyright problems" (of course. Not "Suspected copyright violations", "General help", "Copyright assistance", "Process page for text-related copyright problems", which are irrelevant at first glance, how stupid can I be). Really, you ae saying again: 'do as I know'. Thank you, a bit. -DePiep (talk) 03:47, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

I understand that you are frustrated but you aren't showing us how we could do better. "which are irrelevant at first glance, how stupid can I be". But "Suspected copyright violations" has a top line which says "For images and media suspected of violating copyright, see Wikipedia:Files for deletion. To report suspected copyright violations, please use Wikipedia:Copyright problems". That seems pretty clear to me, not irrelevant. Rmhermen (talk) 04:28, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

I wonder if perhaps the reason you can't find the tag you are looking for is that it doesn't exist - and perhaps for a good reason. Leaving a suspected violation in place, with a 'possible copyright violation' tag on it might look like negligence if it did turn out to be a violation - one is supposed instead to remove the violation from view, and then alert others to the problem. I'm guessing here, but it seems to make sense. AndyTheGrump (talk) 03:04, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

If the tag does not exist for a good reason -- then lead me to a good explanation (not here, but beforehand) that says so. -DePiep (talk) 03:19, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

A tag for copyright problems? If something is copyrighted it should be deleted imediately.

I believe what you are looking for is Template:Copyvio. For future reference if you are looking for a template then you can just type Template:XXX in the search bar and you can usually come up with the type of template you need. For instance, here you were looking for a template that deals with Copyvio, you could have simply typed in Template:Copyvio into the search bar and that would've taken you there. If the whole article is copyvio then you should mark it for speedy deletion. You may also want to check WP:CPI for general instructions on what to do with copyvio problems.AerobicFox (talk) 04:36, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

Two thoughts:

• You don't have to use a template to get help. You could have asked a friend, left a note at one of the usual noticeboards, or just re-drafted the material.
• Given that you describe it as a possible copyvio, you might have been looking for {{Cv-unsure}}. WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:41, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

The only thing I can glance so far from dePieps comments is that we might have to rethink the headers of wp:COPYRIGHT. It currently contains a massive dablink, but does not link to wikipedia:Copyright Problems

WP:C redirects here. You may be looking for Wikipedia:Consensus (shortcut: WP:CON), Wikipedia:Civility (shortcut: WP:CIV), Wikipedia:Categorization (shortcut: WP:CAT), Wikipedia:WikiProject Countries (shortcut: WP:COUNTRIES) or Wikipedia:WikiProject Council (shortcut: WP:COUNCIL).

WP:COPY redirects here. You may be looking for Wikipedia:How to copy-edit (shortcut: WP:COPYEDIT) or Wikipedia:Copying within Wikipedia (shortcut: WP:COPYWITHIN).

Most of this is because of the shortcut wp:C, through which only 10% of the traffic finds wp:Copyright. An even smaller part of that is gonna be interested in that huge fucking dab link, so I propose we remove it and sneak in a link to wp:CP in the other dab.

WP:COPY redirects here. You may be looking for Wikipedia:Copyright Problems (shortcut:WP:CP), Wikipedia:How to copy-edit (shortcut: WP:COPYEDIT) or Wikipedia:Copying within Wikipedia (shortcut: WP:COPYWITHIN).

Yoenit (talk) 10:54, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

I added a link to WP:Copyright problems to WP:COPYRIGHT and moved the WP:COPY dabs before the WP:C dabs. I wasn't prepared to remove the links to WP:C, though. I also added a link to WP:Copyright problems near the top of Wikipedia:Possibly unfree files. Rmhermen (talk) 16:48, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

The MOTD project needs you!

I took another look at WP:CANVASS and I don't seem to violate the rules, so here it is: We're lacking mottos. Recently, we had a handful of close calls; there was even a day when there was no motto at first. There's still ongoing discussion at WT:MOTD/N about how to solve it in the long run. In the short run, though, we really need more mottos, and more comments on the current ones. Please support MOTD if you want everyone to have a new motto to display on userpages every day! Kayau Voting IS evil 03:22, 20 March 2011 (UTC)
P.S. I'm thinking of giving out barnstars for editors who nominate mottos when we most need it, or, to use a Chinese phrase, to give us charcoal when it's snowing...

400 free Credo Reference accounts available

Another 400 free Credo Reference accounts have been made available for Wikipedians, kindly donated by the company and arranged by Erik Möller of the Wikimedia Foundation. We've drawn up some eligibility criteria to direct the accounts to content contributors, and after that it's first-come, first-served. The list will open on Wednesday, March 23 at 22:00 UTC, and will remain open for seven days. See Wikipedia:Credo accounts.

Feel free to add your name even if you're lower on the list than the 400th, in case people ahead of you aren't eligible, and good luck! SlimVirgin ^{TALK|CONTRIBS} 04:41, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

A question about quotation practice

Okay this probably isn't the best place to ask this, but does anyone know where this practice of italicizing quotations in Wikipedia came from? While my knowledge of conventional forms of punctuation is not exhaustive, & neither is my knowledge of the various Manuals of Style embraced by various professional journals, I'm familiar with enough of them to say ith confidence no one else does this. Yet since at least 2005, I have found countless articles where all of the text between quotation marks or in block quotes is italicized. So why do people insist on doing this? -- llywrch (talk) 06:45, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

The Manual of style actually does not prescribe italics for quotes - WP:MOS#Italics and quotations - so you are free to change it to regular text. Roger (talk) 07:04, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

I've been doing this already -- for years, in fact. So that wasn't my question; I just don't understand why people are following this unusual practice. And AFAICS, many people are doing it because they see it is done & think it is proper practice. Maybe getting the word out that this isn't an accepted practice might end it. -- llywrch (talk) 14:47, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

"Mormon"? ...Or "Latter-day Saint"?

A WP:Manual of Style page is dedicated, in part, to this question. I have tweaked it, though, and desire input from the Wikipedia community. The edit I made is presented on its talkpage here.*

^________
*And, for the not faint of heart, there's a somewhat technical discussion of the terms "the Mormon Church" and '"the LDS Church" here: Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (Latter Day Saints)#Regarding term "the Mormon Church".--Hodgson-Burnett's Secret Garden (talk) 16:07, 21 March 2011 (UTC)