Template talk:Welcome-India

How do we welcome India editors then?

With reference to the removal of the last line of the template, do you have any alternative suggestions as to how we can communicate systemic bias to the new India editor? Also, Thisthat2011 suggested we add a whole section on behavioral tips for new India editors. Any suggestions on that? Zuggernaut (talk) 17:24, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps something along the following lines: Indian topics are generally underrepresented on wikipedia and you can help counter this imbalance by becoming a regular contributor and by joining or watchlisting India related discussions. Again, welcome! The main issue, imo, is about topic coverage (thus we have everything about Doctor Who covered in excruciating detail while, say, Buniyaad gets barely a mention). --rgpk (comment) 18:04, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

That makes sense but it would be worth finding out what others think. Should we ask people at WT:IN and elsewhere? Zuggernaut (talk) 05:52, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

That sounds like a good idea. I think an India specific welcome template will be a useful addition, so thanks for taking a lead on that. But, unfortunately, the atmosphere in India related articles is poisonous these days, so we should definitely try to make it as neutral and inclusive (of Indians of all stripes, as well as of non-Indians interested in India related topics) as possible. --rgpk (comment) 15:47, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

Also make a little detailed note of Systemic bias such as 'Indian laws don't apply to Wikipedia, though US laws do' which I think is important. ..असक्तः सततं कार्य कर्म समाचर | असक्तः हि आचरन् कर्म.. Humour Thisthat2011 06:42, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

My understanding is that WP does respect the laws of other nations, besides US, even if those laws don't apply to WP directly.-MangoWong (talk) 08:06, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

Well the correct understanding should be reflected. "WP does respect the laws of other nations" should be clear across page on Wikipages on India atleast. ..असक्तः सततं कार्य कर्म समाचर | असक्तः हि आचरन् कर्म.. Humour Thisthat2011 08:39, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

Let's just leave our current peeves out of this. :) --rgpk (comment) 14:51, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

You will have than all such confusions also. ..असक्तः सततं कार्य कर्म समाचर | असक्तः हि आचरन् कर्म.. Humour Thisthat2011 15:11, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

There are no confusions whatsoever. Wikipedia has very clear policies that deal with the raising of legal issues (see my note to you on WT:IN). Regardless of all that, talking about legal issues in a welcome notice is hardly the right way to get new users to stay here. --rgpk (comment) 15:17, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

Please clarify about your understanding of 'no confusion' as well.

About "talking about legal issues in a welcome notice is hardly the right way", I would like to defer. It is a good pointer indeed according to me, and there are many users who regularly come online to comment about this, even after "current peeves" issue. Archives are good examples for bans, sockpuppet bans, etc. ..असक्तः सततं कार्य कर्म समाचर | असक्तः हि आचरन् कर्म.. Humour Thisthat2011 15:28, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

May be information about how reference standard on Wikipedia is enforced could be included. Such as some sources are treated as more reliable than others; though it should not look like an advertising/regressive campaign. ..असक्तः सततं कार्य कर्म समाचर | असक्तः हि आचरन् कर्म.. Humour Thisthat2011 07:52, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

Information about reliable sources are already included in other links. The tutorial, for example, asks that editors "make sure that every source [they] use is trustworthy and authoritative." There is also a note in the 5 pillars that "All articles must strive for verifiable accuracy: unreferenced material may be removed, so please provide references. Editors' personal experiences, interpretations, or opinions do not belong here. That means citing verifiable, authoritative sources, especially on controversial topics and when the subject is a living person." Chipmunkdavis (talk) 09:49, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

Asking Indian editors to counter systemic bias

I've looked at RegentsPark's removal of the systemic bias sentence again deliberately after a long pause and I must say I don't see it as "pointy". It only says what is very well known and well documented in the essay on systemic bias and the WP:NPOVFAQ. It is important to add the one line alerting them of the problem and encourage them to stick around. Zuggernaut (talk) 13:38, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

How about--Indian topics are generally underrepresented on wikipedia and you can help counter this imbalance by becoming a regular contributor and by joining or watchlisting India related discussions. Again, welcome!

I was also wondering if there could be some way of alerting newbies to the more common pitfalls, and to showing them ways of avoiding them. Newbies would not know that we are looking for sourced content only. Showing them links to WP:V and WP:NOR does not seem too useful to me. Generally they would simply not click on it, and even if they do click it, would not read it through, and even if they read it, (many) would not be able to understand much. So, would it be better to alert them by adding something like the stuff below. Ideas? Comments? Criticisms?

1. Here are some rudimentary points to help you along. Firstly, all content on WP must be sourced from reliable sources ( university level textbooks, newspapers, etc. Blogs are largely unacceptable). We do not insert something simply because we think it is correct. More information can be found at WP:V, WP:NOR.
2. Here are some common tools to help you format your refs easily, Wikipedia citation tool for GoogleBooks, Maunus' refmaker.
3. You can practice your editing skills by creating a personal sandboxclicking. You can click this link and ----- (I am not expert enough to be able formulate this link properly.) Copying a mid sized article with some refs and some images already in it, and then practicing your skills on it could be a good idea. You may also want to visit Wikipedia:User page design center and Wikipedia:User page design center/Style.
4. At an initial stage, it may be a good idea to contribute only to some simple topics and articles. One could slowly move to more complex issues as one gains in experience. Moving onto something too big at an initial stage could be counterproductive.
5. Wikipedia is driven by consensus. It is expected that all eds work towards achieving consensus and strive to maintain a healthy respectful and collaborative atmosphere. Being civil is a big issue. The community offers protection to the new users by formulating policies like WP:BITE. Violations of civility can be reported at WP:ANI. However, new users are also expected to conform to WP:CIVIL
6. While using sources, one must not use the same wording as the source itself. It is generally necessary that the wording of the source be paraphrased. See WP:Copyvio.
7. While posting comments on talk page, there are some conventions to be followed. One should only say things which are relevant to the improvement of the article and relevant to the section at hand. There are some proper ways to formulate the wording of your comments so that they are effective and useful. Please see WP:TPG.
8. Providing diffs and links to make oneself understood clearly is a good idea. See WP:Diff
9. WP has a myriad range of policies and guidelines etc. So, it is also OK to work through common sense. It is acceptable that newbies should make some mistakes at an initial stage. Nevertheless, it is expected that everyone should familiarize themselves with the Five Pillars.
10. While editing, one should also not edit war. Please see WP:3RR. In short, 3RR means one cannot perform more than three reverts in one article within a 24 hour period.-MangoWong ^ℳ 08:51, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

Two more points which just came up to my mind.

1. It is also suggested that while creating usernames, real names should not be used. Although WP has an Anglophone bias, people from all parts of the world participate on WP and efforts are on to increase the participation of people from all parts of the world. As such, using cosmopolitan looking names may be helpful. It is also suggested that personal information be not given out on WP, whether on user page or during discussions.
2. To sum it up, WP is a place for folks who are interested in building a good, reliable knowledge bank, i.e. a high quality encyclopedia. Happy editing.-MangoWong ^ℳ 13:05, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

We also have things like "Picture of the day", "Tip of the day", bot delivered Newsletters, and suggestion bots, etc. I suggest we might show some of these things to the newbies. It is quite easy to place them on the userpage or talk page. Doing this, they will gain some editing experience + they will have something new to look at whenever they log on+ it would give them the feeling that something is going on and make them feel involved.-MangoWong ^ℳ 16:18, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

I commend you for this list MangoWong, it covers some important points. My concern is overloading new users, I believe the current welcome template was designed to try and introduce users without scaring them. If I were you I would raise this at the WP:Village Pump if you wish to push forward with it, as it could help more than Indians. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 12:45, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

Excellent points, MangoWong. We can get rid of the bottom three bullet items from the current template (How to edit a page and How to develop articles, How to create your first article (using the Article Wizard if you wish), Manual of Style) and replace them with three or more of MangoWong's points. My favorites as of now are:

1. Not giving out too much personal information. I have come across several editors who have the date, the month and the year of their birth listed on their userpage.
2. MangoWong's point #6 - WP:Copyvio. This seems to be a common problem with India related editors.
3. MangoWong's very first point with more emphasis on WP:RS and WP:NOR

If others are OK with this, I will go ahead and make the change to the template.

Zuggernaut (talk) 13:47, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

I think the linking version suggested by zuggernaut (and implemented by MangoWong) is fine. I'm not sure about including the long list above, information overload is never a good idea and the usefulness of the template will be greatly diluted by the increased length. --rgpk (comment) 15:58, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

I have looked into Wikipedia:Welcoming committee/Welcome templates/Table for some ideas. I find that the welcoming committee has all sorts of templates-- gigantic ones, and fairly short ones too. I have also found both types being used by various users. So, it seems that choice of big/small template depends on the user who is extending the welcome. Would it be better to keep the present template as it is, and design another bigger one? That way, folks who want to use a short template can use the short one and those who want to use the larger one can use the larger one?-MangoWong ^ℳ 19:18, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

Well. the present template is just the smallest default template with a note of systematic bias isn't it? Not much difference from the standard welcome. I'm sure you can change it if you feel other issues are more pertinent, to a longer form, although I suggest using two columns if you want to include the list of ten things you mentioned above. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 03:34, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

OK then. Two templates and two columns. The idea is to channelize the energy of the newbies in the required direction.-MangoWong ^ℳ 06:58, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

Agree, this one looks good with MangoWong's addition and we can create a new separate two-column one. I would propose using icons and picture in this newer one - something on the lines of what can be found on Redtigerxyz's user page Zuggernaut (talk) 02:23, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

Y. Here are some links which may be considered for inclusion on the new template. The signpost newsletter {{Signpost-subscription}}, the picture of the day {{POTD wikipedia}}, tip of the day {{totd3}}, suggest bot SuggestBot. Since we are telling users about WP:v and WP:nor, it may be useful to show them some ways of finding sources like Wikipedia:List of free online resources. I am removing the line thanking new users for their contributions from the present template. It is cumbersome to use the present template with that line because lots of new users have not yet made an edit, and for the ones who did make an edit, I have to go find out whether their edits are useful of not. If the line is necessary, please reinsert it.-MW ^ℳ 05:35, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

If I may make a suggestion, we don't know if a particular new editor is actually interested in India related topics or just happened to edit in that area first. Also, we do want to highlight the underrepresented part by moving it to a separate para. But, that would be odd as a single sentence so, perhaps (as part of a separate para on the bottom): Since you've shown some interest in editing topics related to India, we hope you'll stay and add content to India related articles. Indian topics are generally underrepresented on wikipedia and you can help counter this imbalance by becoming a regular contributor and by joining or watchlisting India related discussions (for example, Noticeboard_for_India-related_topics). Again, welcome! --rgpk (comment) 15:46, 7 September 2011 (UTC)