Talk:Jack the Ripper

This article uses British English dialect and spelling. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus. Note: The official spelling of the formal name is correct with the -ize ending, which had been discussed in the past.

Archives
January 2003 – February 2007 02.07 – 10.07 10.07 – 11.07 11.07 – 12.07 12.07 – 08.19

Goulston Street Graffito

Ignoring the above, here's the deal: the reliable sources on this topic call the writing "The Goulston Street Graffito" overwhelmingly. The article needs to reflect that instead of minimizing the mention or taking it out completely. This is the same thing with what happened with the terms "Ripperologist" and "canonical five" that Arcayne wanted removed because he didn't want the experts (whom he considers universally to be cranks and scammers) to have their views included. We eventually dug up enough sources to prove what I was saying all along to the other editors, and then we just ignored Arcayne from then on. So what we need to determine how to solve this dilemma, is what evidence other editors require and what format they need to see it in.

What do you non-Arayne people need to see before you will agree that the section heading about "writing on the wall" and the references in it get returned to how they were for the last several years: "Goulston Street Graffito". If you acknowledge the existence of experts and that experts use terms to describe things, you must acknowledge the possibility the reliable sources can be provided to show this, which I think I more than adequately provided by Arcayne kept deleting them left and right. So, please, tell me what I need to show the rest of you to get you to agree to go along with the terms the experts use? How many sources, what do they have to say, how do you want to confirm it? DreamGuy (talk) 17:49, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

In answer to your question, simply find a reliable source that explicitly says that a number of authors use the term. Not ignoring the above, the idea that there are authors that use the term is addressed, and lists examples, using the term "such as". The proposal addresses that the previous citations didn't actually state that a number of authors do use the term, instead simply noting some who do. That's synthesis, as we are bringing different citations to prove a point not expressly delivered by those sources. Some authors use the term, and some do not. We cannot simple say "authors use" any more than we can say "most" or "many" for that reason. Again, the above proposal addresses the problem.

Additionally, we have already arrived at a consensus that notes that Goulston Street Graffito is: a) not an accessible term to the casual reader (for whom we write, not fans), and b) an grammatically incorrect usage of the term "graffito" (as noted by at least three dictionary sources; graffito is for ancient writing, not contemporary).

While we all appreciate what the years-ago version used to look like (and are fully aware of your preference for that version), the article hasn't even been a Good Article in almost six years of fairly continuous editing, and it has been FAC, GAC and Peer Reviewed. The section above addresses a fair compromise that will remove one of the many stumbling blocks hindering this article - namely, the personality conflicts over personal preferences.

For my part, allow me to be clear: I do not dismiss the neologism "Ripperology" as a field of interest; I discount it as a field of expertise. It is an important distinction, one easily equatable with UFOlogists. While people within both fields of interest can be experts in, say, aeronautical engineering of forensic pathology, they are not "Ripperology" experts. Not all of them are cranks, scammers or freaks, but enough are to bear out the stereotypification.

Secondly, I try to look at the article in the same way that a casual reader will see it, not as a fan would. This is a principle borne out in Wikipedia through every Good Article in the wiki-en. If we refer to esoteric or unfamiliar concepts, we need to clarify them for the newcomer; that is the goal, right after reliable citation. Perhaps some editors are seeing this as a basic amateurish trying to be more of an aficionado. I unequivocally state that I am not immersed in the subject matter; there are contributors here who are well-versed in the material; I see my job as maintaining a layman view of the article; this has served as the basis of many of my objections to material being added.

Thirdly, and lastly, Wikipedia is supposed to work as a community of editors, not just one or two adding material and jostling over which view will prevail in the article. For my part, I have been a little too quick to dismiss folk introducing large amounts of material (or material already excluded for whatever reason) into the article as disdainful of discussion. Perhaps that has been an unfair characterization. I expect - actually, I demand discussion of material which significantly alters the article, so the article doesn't become a brag piece for a single person (or cadre) off-wiki; the article is a group effort, and I will work to prevent any sort of manhandling of the article in such a way.

This is where I am coming from. - Arcayne (^{cast a spell}) 18:33, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

I have a question for DreamGuy - How important is this phrase to the study of the "Jack the Ripper" murders? Does this phrase communicate an idea in a unique way that other means of reference can't replicate? Is there gravitas or intelligence that is conveyed by this phrase that is missing from other phrases? I guess what I'm trying to figure out is why is this specific phrase so important that it now consumes the entirety of the contributing editors on this page, and why is any other phrase that refers to this writing simply unacceptable to you? Other than the alliteration what does the use of this specific phrase bring to the article? I truly would like to know why this specific phrase is more important than the entire rest of the article. Is it simply that other writers have used the phrase? I don't find that a compelling argument for what is essentially a catchphrase. The article on Lou Gehrig's Disease only mentions that phrase once even though several experts refer to it as such. Considering this subject is over 100 years old I'm sure there are phrases used by some "experts" that aren't even part of the English language anymore. What is the big idea? Why is this phrase that important? padillaH ^{(review me)}_{(help me)} 20:30, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

I think the answer to Padillah's question "How important is this phrase to the study of the "Jack the Ripper" murders?" is given above by DreamGuy "the reliable sources on this topic call the writing 'The Goulston Street Graffito' overwhelmingly." If the latter statement is true, then there is IMO no reason not to use the term in the article and significant justification for using it.

What do people think of as 'the reliable sources on this topic'? Wanderer57 (talk) 19:33, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Why would this catchphrase be of any particular importance when the most cited[1] authors do perfectly well without it ? But of course, on the other hand, perhaps the "reliability" of the sources ought to be judged by their use of that phrase ? In that case, why not replace the references made to the work of Stewart Evans, Donald Rumbelow, and Philip Sugden by that of a number of "overwhelmingly more knowledgeable" figures ? ΑΩ (talk) 08:04, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, Alpha Omega. (Great name.) I decline to be drawn into a discussion on the importance of this "catchphrase". I reiterate, what do people consider as reliable sources on the subject of Jack the Ripper? Can I take it from your comment, Alpha Omega, that you consider Stewart Evans, Donald Rumbelow, and Philip Sugden to be high on the list of reliable sources? Thanks. Wanderer57 (talk) 12:10, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

If what you said were correct and citable, AlphaOmega, you'd have a point. But it's not. You've never provided any sources to back it up. On top of that, the absence of a term in a published book can have more to do with an editor deciding to remove jargon that in what the author actually says. I see nothing from those authors that they oppose the term, and most expert sources use the term (as my row of cites earlier plus more that were removed shows), so the term is definitely what the experts use.

Frankly, the only person in the field I am aware of who opposes the term is one Howard Brown, who has only written some minor pieces of work on this topic, and he is in the distinct minority. I also note that AlphaOmega's edits seem almost overwhelmingly to be to add claims made by Howard Brown to the article regarding D'Onston and his Juives belief, etc. AO's edits here almost certainly are trying to give WP:UNDUE weight to the opinions of some minor individual... And, as one of my earlier cites pointed out, even Brown's major article on the topic was published with a headline that used "Goulston Street Graffito", so his editors clearly felt the term was necessary. DreamGuy (talk) 15:03, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Well, a few months ago you seemed to take more or less for granted that I would be Howard Brown.[2] You're wrong. And I'll say your repeated suggestion here amounts to harassment. I am certainly not acting on behalf of Howard Brown. I am fairly well aware of who Howard Brown is, as you also would seem to be. I became aware of his website about a year ago. But at that point I already had been studying this case for about six years. My views, my opinions, are certainly my own, and they have not changed much over the last year or so.

And, like I've said before, Sugden, Evans and Rumbelow do not use that term in their major works about this case. That is not the same as to say they are "opposing" it. I would guess the situation here might be much the same as with the term 'Ripperology', as noted by Stewart Evans: "I guess we're stuck with it". As for myself I find there's reason to be critical of it, and I see little reason why more common words would not do just as well. ΑΩ (talk) 16:32, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Has no-one learned anything from the previous attempted outing? - please stop now, even guessing, it's just disruptive. Kbthompson (talk) 17:03, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Awkward Wording

QUOTING the article:

"Six other Whitechapel murders were investigated by the Metropolitan Police at the time, two of which occurred before the 'canonical' five and four after. Some of these have been ascribed, by certain figures involved in the investigation or by later authors, to have been victims of Jack the Ripper."

This is badly worded, IMO. Murders cannot be "victims". I changed it to:

"Six other Whitechapel murders were investigated by the Metropolitan Police at the time, two of which occurred before the 'canonical' five and four after. Some of these have been attributed, by certain figures involved in the investigation or by later authors, to Jack the Ripper."

The phrase "certain figures" is very vague. Would it be accurate to say: "Some of these have been attributed, by investigators or by later authors, to Jack the Ripper."

Wanderer57 (talk) 12:45, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

The case was closed??

The paragraph about Frances Coles ends with this sentence:

"After this eleventh and last "Whitechapel Murder" the case was closed."

I find this unconvincing. First of all, after the eleventh murder occurred, no-one (with the possible exception of the murderer) KNEW that it was the last murder.

Secondly, "the case was closed" suggests the police stopped trying to solve the eleven murders. Surely they continued for some time trying to solve them.  ???

Wanderer57 (talk) 12:56, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

The sentence is true in that Frances Coles was the last name entered into the Whitechapel Murder file and that no other murder victim names were entered into the file afterwards. I am not aware of any further police investigations after the collapse of the Sadleir case, though I may be wrong. I get the impression that the police really thought that Sadleir was the Ripper and did not change their minds afterwards, even when he was found not guilty of the murder of Coles. Colin4C (talk) 13:27, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

The Whitechapel murder file was eventually closed with no other known additions that survived to modern times (a great deal of the file was thrown out and pilfered by police for souvenirs over the years, what we have is just an accident of being saved before it was about to be discarded as well), but the case most certainly was not closed. William Grant Grainger, for example, was investigated for stabbing a woman in the stomach many years later and they brought in Joseph Lawende (main witness in the Eddowes murder) to try to identify him as the person he saw with Eddowes outside Mitre Square minutes before her murder. All that can really be said is that no other entires in this file survive, not that the case was closed. DreamGuy (talk) 14:53, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Apparently Natural Causes!!!

Quoting the article:

"Annie Millwood, born c. 1850, reportedly the victim of an attack on February 25, 1888. She was admitted to hospital with "numerous stabs in the legs and lower part of the body." She was discharged from hospital but died from apparently natural causes on March 31, 1888."

Really? It strains credibility to say that someone who was stabbed numerous times died five weeks later of apparently natural causes.

Who gave the opinion that she died of "apparently natural causes"? I think this incredible "diagnosis" should be attributed to someone, or else not included here at all. (I realize a reference is given. I don't have access to it.) Wanderer57 (talk) 13:06, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Being stabbed in the leg is not necessarily fatal...Being stabbed in the 'lower part of the body' can be serious, though maybe this is a euphemism for being 'stabbed in the bottom'. If that is the case, then this is not necessarily fatal, bearing in mind also that Victorian women, through lack of excercise and general laziness, did have quite large posteriors. Colin4C (talk) 13:37, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

I don't think it's a euphemism for the backside, I think it's a euphemism for the "front side". And the Frontside has several important arteries running through it. The closeness of death to such a violent attack does cause one to question. Yes, it could happen but you gotta wonder if it actually did. padillaH ^{(review me)}_{(help me)} 17:17, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Is there a doctor in the house??? Colin4C (talk) 17:46, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Natural causes could include sepsis from the wounds - or indeed, the treatment. As far as the hospital was concerned she had survived her wounds. Obviously they had performance statistics even then ... Kbthompson (talk) 17:57, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

It would be better to track down and quote the original testimony (doctor report, inquest, press report if that's all we have) or cite another reliable source instead of just wasting our time hypothesizing here. DreamGuy (talk) 14:55, 21 August 2008 (UTC)