Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Jewish Nobel Prize Winners

List of Jewish Nobel Prize Winners

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• Articles for deletion/List of Jewish Nobel Prize Winners
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List of Jewish Nobel Prize Winners (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log • AfD statistics)

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This article was recently recreated even though it was previously deleted. It was first submitted for deletion back in 2004, and the result was no consensus. The issue of having Nobel lists based on religious affiliation was raised several times in the past, and after a long discussion in 2007, it was decided to delete all such articles (Jewish laureates, Christian laureates, atheist laureates...). Even if we were to consider Jewishness as an ethnicity and not just a religion (which is the argument that is often invoked in such situations), the article in its current form does not provide any reference whatsoever to back up the claim that any of the individuals listed are Jewish. Why are they listed here? What is the criterion used? I'm always wary of attributing a religious affiliation to someone without reliable sources clearly stating that the individual in question identified as such. In its current form, the article is a flagrant violation of WP:RS.— Preceding unsigned comment added by BomBom (talk • contribs) 03:28, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Judaism-related deletion discussions. —BomBom (talk) 03:28, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Lists of people-related deletion discussions. —BomBom (talk) 04:05, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
• Strong Keep I did not know it was deleted, but we have this category. What seem to be the problem in having the article? For all Jews being Jew is a state of mind. I've checked all individuals and all of them are added to corresponding categories as for example Jewish American scientists, German-American Jews , Jewish poets , Russian Jews, etc in the main articles they appear. I hope you are not suggesting that all those categories should be removed. --Mbz1 (talk) 03:35, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

• You must have external reliable sources stating that the individuals in question identified themselves as Jewish. The fact that an individual is placed in a Jewish-related category on Wikipedia is not considered proper referencing, as Wikipedia cannot cite itself. I would also like to point out that if this article is kept, it will lead to a slippery slope and we will witness the recreation of other religion-based Nobel lists. --BomBom (talk) 03:57, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

I understand, you do not like it - so many Jews are laureates of Nobel Prize. Of course all the articles have the external reliable sources stating that the individuals in question are Jewish, and it could be confirmed with not just one, but by many reliable sources outside Wikipedia. Jews is not only religion, it is an ethnicity and it was a nationality in a former Soviet Union, that's why your claim about other religions has nothing to do with the article. I did not include to the article, the ones, who converted to Judaism. --Mbz1 (talk) 04:07, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

Dear Mbz1, it is quite offensive for you to suggest that the reason I want this article deleted is because I "do not like [the fact that] so many Jews are laureates of Nobel Prize". This is certainly not why I dislike the article. There is already an article about Ashkenazi intelligence, and I have no problem whatsoever with it as this is a notable topic that has been extensively studied by external researchers. What I dislike about the Nobel list is that it lumps together very different people using a very subjective criterion (Jewishness, which cannot be as objectively defined as, say, nationality or university affiliation) without providing any kind of reference to back up the claim. The Nobel Foundation maintains several Nobel-related lists on its website. None of them are based on religion or ethnicity, which means that the awarding organisation itself does not consider the correlation to be relevant. As for the fact that there are other similar lists, please read WP:OTHERSTUFF. It is unfortunate that Wikipedia has such lists as List of black Nobel Laureates or List of Asian Academy Award winners and nominees. Ideally, I would like to see them go too. They were also submitted for deletion in the past (which shows that I'm not the only one who's uncomfortable with such "ethnic" lists), but there was not enough consensus to delete them. However, that's the way Wikipedia works; one bad list should not be an excuse for other bad lists. Finally, if you find it interesting that 22% of Nobel laureates are Jewish, then you can certainly go on and create a properly referenced subsection about that (one where the notability of the correlation is established by external sources) in the Ashkenazi intelligence article. This is where it would be most appropriate. Regards. --BomBom (talk) 05:31, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

Well, you said it yourself: List of black Nobel Laureates or List of Asian Academy Award winners and nominees. Then why we cannot have list of Jews Nobel Prize Winners. It is an interesting information, and wikipedia is an encyclopedia, so why not? See here: Jewish Genius. -- Britannica Online Encyclopedia. BTW not all Jews are Ashkenazi you know.--Mbz1 (talk) 05:57, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

• Delete While the article is quite interesting, and inspiring, it amounts to original research since it doesn't cite any sources that say, as a group, Jewish Nobel Prize winners are a notable thing. If someone writes a book putting this forth as evidence of Jewish intellectual or moral superiority (or of their status as God's Chosen People or whatever) then write an article on that but don't just give us the data. Kitfoxxe (talk) 04:31, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

Every Nobel prize winner is notable, and it is just an interesting fact that Jews constitute 22% from those notable people. Nobody is talking about superiority, but as I mentioned above as long as Wikipedia hosts all those articles in place, I really do not see, how one could claim that this article should be deleted.--Mbz1 (talk) 04:49, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

I agree that it is an interesting fact, more than just interesting. However until someone else points out this fact WP should not do so. Kitfoxxe (talk) 05:00, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

It is all over the NET. Wikipedia seems to be the only site that is missing the info :) --Mbz1 (talk) 05:11, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

That's 'cause WP follows published sources, not other websites. Kitfoxxe (talk) 05:13, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

Do you really believe that published sources are more reliable than web sites? Few months ago one of my images was published in a book. I explained to the author in length that the image was of inferior mirage. When I got a published copy of the book, it stated that the image is Fata Morgana, and it is only one example. Anyway here's a very reliable source, which has a individual article for every person mentioned in the list. Jews are not interested to claim that somebody is a Jew, if they are not 100% sure they is. Please trust me on that.--Mbz1 (talk) 05:29, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

There are sources that discuss the disproportionate percentage of Jewish Nobel laureates, there are also sources that discuss why this is the case. See Murray, Charles. Human Accomplishment: The Pursuit of Excellence in the Arts and Sciences, 800 B.C. to 1950 pp. 281-283 (we even have an article on that book, also viewable at Amazon). Also Zukerman, Harriet. Scientific elite: Nobel laureates in the United States pp. 78-82 (google books). There are many more. I dont really have an opinion on whether or not this specific list should exist, but an article could certainly exist on Jewish Nobel laureates. But Mbz1, please calm down a bit, I am sure the people voting to delete are not doing so because they dislike the fact that many Jews are laureates of Nobel Prize. Also, I think you could take care of some of the concerns by providing a rock-solid source for each of the entries saying that the person is or was Jewish. nableezy - 06:02, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

I provided 2 sources: Here we go Page 198. and reliable source. I am not sure who one could say "disproportionate" percentage of Jewish Nobel laureates. Why it is "disproportionate", and who was the one to establish proportions?--Mbz1 (talk) 06:14, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

Proportionate relative to the percentage of the population. Dont worry, its a good thing here. nableezy - 06:16, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

• Strong Keep It's a fascinating list. We also have List of Jewish actors which I was at the other day and discovered several wonderful actors and actresses that I didn't know of were Jewish. We have List of black ice hockey players. Jews are proud of the achievements of their fellows, just as Black folks are proud of the people in their heritage group, and Russians are proud of their poets and and their inventors. If someone wants to argue that Blacks are superior at ice hockey or Russians are superior poets, that's their business. It is our business to give them the information that is relevant, not to make value judgments over the worth of such an article. Mbz1 is absolutely right that these Nobel Prize winners are notable for being Nobel Prize winners and there is absolutely nothing wrong with such a list. Stellarkid (talk) 05:54, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
• CommentYou wanted a published reliable source? Here we go Page 198.--Mbz1 (talk) 06:09, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

• Keep The subject is notable. However, in a list of this nature, there should be a WP:RS for each individual that indicates she/he is Jewish. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 07:41, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

• Keep. Yes, the list should cite sources saying each of the people listed is Jewish. But it has already been demonstrated here that reliable sources are available for many of them, so that argument for deletion falls away. I also agree that the list's preamble should contain a referenced explanation of why this combination of attributes (Jewishness and winning the Nobel Prize) is significant, e.g. based on the sources mentioned by Nableezy above. No difficulty there, it seems. People are also arguing for deletion by virtue of precedent (the 2007 AFD), and a kind of inverse WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS: that all sorts of bad stuff will be created if we don't delete this one. The latter is not convincing, because we can simply bring the bad stuff to AFD, and let it stand or fall on its own merits. And people did argue late in the 2007 AFD (which was a group nomination of several lists of Nobel Prize winners by religion/non-religion) that the list of Jewish winners was a special case. I agree. -- Avenue (talk) 10:50, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

Nota Bene: This is an article that was just created, and perhaps Mbz1 has not had much experience with the sourcing requirements of new articles. It would have been better to discuss any preceived issues on the article's talk page before initiating an AfD. I suggest this AfD be closed, and time given to discuss any problems with the article on its talk page. If, after discussion, the articles still seems problematic to BomBom that would be the time for an AfD. 173.52.134.191 (talk) 12:18, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

• Keep. Notable and verifiable: [1], [2],[3], etc. — Rankiri (talk) 15:06, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

Strong delete. 1) POV, who decicdes that someone is Jewish? Do we have a kind of statement? Why should that be relevant? 2) POV, this list tries to privilige Jewish in comparison to others. Why is that? Are Jewish God's blessed people or what? 3) Do we need now a list of Spanish Nobel Prize holders, German, English,....??? 4) Could everything be included in Nobel Prize winners, and what a person beliefs in is not subject to a neutral encyclopedia.

Hence because of POV and redundancy delete. --Yikrazuul (talk) 15:27, 27 February 2010 (UTC) PS: cite: "Nobel Prize winners are notable for winning the Nobel Prize, not for being of a particular ethnicity or religion" —Preceding unsigned comment added by Yikrazuul (talk • contribs) 15:31, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

• This list is just as relevant as List of Italian writers, List of American philosophers or thousands of similar lists on Wikipedia. If your concern is that we don't have List of German Nobel Prize Winners, feel free to create it using this source: [4]. I also suggest you visit WP:CFORK#What content/POV forking is not, as I see no reason to believe that this is a consensus-dodging POV fork and not a legitimate spin-off of the main article that discusses one of its subtopics in greater detail. By the way, what does "God's blessed people" have to do with anything? I'm afraid the only POV I see here is yours. — Rankiri (talk) 16:18, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

Maybe I should have focused it only to the religion: Yes, we donna have a "List of Christian Nobel prize winners", "List of Hindu ..." etc. because it never should be important here to be "of a particular ethnicity or religion". I am sad to see that you are stressing the religion and ethnicity so much, which is your sad-but-true-POV. --Yikrazuul (talk) 16:50, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

The list has nothing to do with the religion. The list includes few Jews, who converted to Christianity, and it does not include Christians, who converted to Judaism. Yikrazuul, I've also got a strong impression of at least bad-taste POV from your comment. Both times you've used "delete" you made it bold to look as a double vote. --Mbz1 (talk) 17:18, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

Strong Keep - There is absolutely no evidence of POV here. Being of Jewish ancestry or conversion to Judism is not a vague criteria. Individuals either are or they are not and sources will confirm that. Equally so, Nobel Prize winners are known and verifiable. This list's inclusion criteria are clear and concise. One might quibble with an individual entry, but this list in toto meets WP:List and WP:CLN guidelines.--Mike Cline (talk) 17:13, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

• Keep we do have articles on nobel prize winners by nationality, gender. i agree it can be a slippery slope: I dont like the article on "black" laureates, as that is a highly subjective description. however, people self identifying as jewish is very clear cut, even people who renounce their religion or even their culture, but acknowledge they came from it. We can support articles like that here, esp since jewishness is a highly notable identity that often transcends other categories, due to the history of the jews. we could have notable hindu winners (which is a highly culturally identified religion), but that would be mostly people from India, so somewhat redundant. I think a problem here stems with the original research in the lead, where numerous facts are pulled together to give an impression of POV. I dont think we can say much in the lead beyond "this is a list of people who have been awarded the NP who are Jewish", unless other reliable sources have written about the intersection of Jewishness and Nobel prizes. maybe if the lead is simplified, it will read better. MBz, if there are nobel laureates who converted to judaism, they would be included here. we would use the list as inclusively as possible.Mercurywoodrose (talk) 17:50, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

  Thanks for your suggestion, Mercurywoodrose. I've used the most reliable and the most conservative source I have found to make the list. That's why I did not include in the list few laureates. For example Elfriede Jelinek, who won Nobel Prize in literature in 2004 is one of them. Wikipedia article states about her: "Her father, a chemist of Jewish-Czech origin ("Jelinek" means "little deer" in Czech) managed to avoid persecution during the Second World War by working in strategically important industrial production. However, several dozen family members became victims of the Holocaust." Does it make her to be Jewish? I do not know. The idea behind the making of the list was not to make it is big as possible, but rather make it to represent the reality as much as possible. If the article would be kept, we could discuss later on, if laureates like Elfriede Jelinek should be included. One more example is Christian B. Anfinsen. He won Nobel Prize in 1972. He converted to Judaism by undergoing an Orthodox conversion in 1979, so 7 years later after he received the prize. I of course did not include him, because I felt, if I do I could find myself at a slippery slope. --Mbz1 (talk) 18:42, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

• Strong Keep verifiable, notable, and per Mbz1. Broccoli (talk) 18:40, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

• 'Keep: the particular stench alone of User:Yikrazuul's "Are Jewish God's blessed people or what?" should be a sufficient reason. --RCS (talk) 19:11, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

• Keep - criteria for inclusion in the list is clear; that it's right now inadequately sourced (if that's even the case) is not grounds for deletion. That said, I want to note that a reasonable man could support deletion without being an antisemite, and it's wrong to impugn anyone by suggesting otherwise. Tom Harrison ^Talk 19:29, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

• Keep - the topic itself is notable and has been covered in reliable sources since ... 1942 [5]. Also, as far as I can tell reliable sources have been added for most (all?) laureates.radek (talk) 22:45, 27 February 2010 (UTC)