Wikipedia talk:Verifiability

Poll: Misleading opening statement

• For whatever reason, this statement, "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth: whether readers can check that material in Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source, not whether editors think it is true." is problematic and needs to be rewritten:

Support

1. . Casliber (talk · contribs) 12:52, 18 April 2011 (UTC)
2. For too long, this wording has been used to justify the deliberate inclusion of information known to be incorrect. It needs rethinking. User:Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 14:06, 18 April 2011 (UTC)
3. Yes, there are multiple problems with it, as noted in previous discussions - it's only acceptable if you happen to know what it's trying to say, and it is intended (obviously) to be read and understood by people who don't know beforehand what it's trying to say.--Kotniski (talk) 14:36, 18 April 2011 (UTC)
4. The only reason for keeping this misleading sentence would be if there were no good alternatives. However, it is very easy to think of alternative formulations that do an even better job of making clear that we're after the truth as can be distilled from reliable sources, here on Wikipedia. Count Iblis (talk) 14:50, 18 April 2011 (UTC)
5. Verifiability requirements can be strongly stated without double-dissing the concept of accuracy. The first diss is using the straw-man problematic word "truth" instead of "accuracy" and second by inserting the "not" statement in the lead sentence. North8000 (talk) 15:06, 18 April 2011 (UTC) (moved from below Unscintillating's comment) The lead states with emphasis that what we want is "not truth", and so that is what we are getting. (Unscintillating said it well) Time for a change! North8000 (talk) 00:28, 25 April 2011 (UTC)
6. Weak support as I am not sure that rewriting it is the only way of solving the problem. Actually we have two problems: (1) Editors who really and honestly believe that we should make Wikipedia say something that we know is not true. Just because reliable sources agree it is true and we want to be consistent. (2) Editors who pretend to be of type (1) when it fits their agenda. It saves them from agreeing with a consensus that they cannot plausibly disagree with.
   Both problems are relatively rare but should be addressed. I don't care whether this is done by changing the text or by adding a clear explanation that (1) is not the intended meaning. Maybe neither is needed, but just a strong consensus in this discussion, to which we can then point whenever the matter comes up again. Hans Adler 16:21, 18 April 2011 (UTC)
7. Support. "Verifiability" to this point hasn't even been defined in terms of whether a reliable source has actually been cited, or whether a reliable source could easily be found and cited ("Abraham Lincoln was an important figure in the American Civil War."). Moreover, the world "truth" in the phrase not truth has been perverted: it apparently refers to NOT an editor's idea of truth if it cannot (even in theory) be supported by a reliable source. Which is an extremely odd use of the word "truth," and a very bad way to use it. The concept invoked is something like "a personal controversial version of truth in the WP editors' mind, that could not be supported with a reliable source." THAT is what WP deprecates, but calling that thing "truth" is an abomination, and an insult to truth. WP does seek truth (what good is an encyclopedia that does not?) It just doesn't seek "personal truth." Editors are asked to keep that to themselves.SBHarris 18:58, 18 April 2011 (UTC)
8. Suggest shortening to "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth: whether readers can check that material in Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source," dropping the words "not whether editors think it is true", because I've seen them misused to dismiss demonstrably well-founded concerns about source accuracy. See #Proposal 2, below. --JN466 16:21, 19 April 2011 (UTC)
9. The lead states with emphasis that what we want is "not truth".  This is what we are getting in the encyclopedia, "not truth".  Unscintillating (talk) 00:01, 25 April 2011 (UTC)
10. Support - The problem isn't with truth being in Wikipedia, everyone wants that. The problem is with what some editors think is true, which may in fact be FALSE. The phrase "verifiability, not truth" is misleading. Remove the "not truth" part. The phrase "not whether editors think it is true" at the end of the sentence is correct and right on the mark. Also, "The threshold" is ambiguous and may mean it's enough to just to be verifiable in order to be included in Wikipedia, which is definitely not correct and everyone here agrees that verifiability alone is not enough to be included in Wikipedia. There's NPOV, etc. This can be fixed by changing "The threshold" to "A requirement" or "A minimum requirement". Please see Proposal 4 below. 75.47.143.156 (talk) 14:13, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
11. Support—Truth is too subjective anyways, and has been used by the fringers to their benefit. OrangeMarlin ^{Talk• Contributions} 00:02, 2 May 2011 (UTC)
12. The word "threshold" is problematic, at least.—S Marshall T/C 23:07, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
13. For what it's worth. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 01:52, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

Oppose

1. . It's neccesary to mention that debates for inclusion don't depend on whether something is true or not. Truth is highly subjective, and endlessly arguable. Verifiabilty can be easily checked. If we imply that truth is a matter of consideration in our decision making process, we will encourage original research, endless arguments, and walls of text. We'll never reach consensus on anything. LK (talk) 13:09, 18 April 2011 (UTC)
2. I fear that changing this wording opens the door to unwarranted promotion of fringe theories which is still a major problem here at Wikipedia. In fact, the latest Quarterly Newsletter of the Association for Skeptical Enquiry[1] discusses the problem and actually recommends people stay away from Wikipedia because of the difficulty in dealing with fringe theories. Let's face it. There's a good reason why we don't care about The Truth©: people can argue endlessly over what's true but checking to see if a source says something is a much easier debate to settle. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 13:48, 18 April 2011 (UTC)
3. I don't think the statement itself is problematic, and I don't think it should be removed or changed... However, I think the explanation of it may be incomplete. As written, it correctly excludes unverifiable information, even if it is "true". What it is missing is a follow up statement on what to do about clearly untrue (or inaccurate) information that happens to be verifiable. Blueboar (talk) 13:48, 18 April 2011 (UTC)
4. Nothing's broken as far as I can see. --Nuujinn (talk) 16:07, 18 April 2011 (UTC)
5. I expect to need the words "threshold" + "verifiability, not truth" in the foreseeable future. My evolving intensity of preference is informed by lessons learned the hard way. --Tenmei (talk) 17:36, 18 April 2011 (UTC)
6. There's nothing wrong with the current wording, and changing it will open the floodgates to every crank who thinks they know the TRUTH™. Even now we are inundated with them, but this wording at least helps mitigate the worst of it. Jayjg ^(talk) 22:54, 18 April 2011 (UTC)
7. The idea that "verifiability, not truth" is the threshold for inclusion is widely used and well-understood on Wikipedia. Some people here are saying there have been attempts to insert material known to be false because of it, but I've personally never seen an example of that in over six years of regular editing; and if such examples do exist, they are rare. For the most part, the idea makes clear to editors that what we do on Wikipedia is supply a survey of the relevant literature, regardless of our personal views. That's not just a means to an end (where what we're really doing is aiming for "truth"), as others have argued. Offering a good summary of the appropriate literature is an end-in-itself. SlimVirgin ^{TALK|CONTRIBS} 01:24, 19 April 2011 (UTC)
8. Wording is fine. Like I've said before, Wikipedia's policies don't currently allow individual editors to assert personal authority over what is true or not. We're only allowed to declare something as true if it says so in a reliable, verifiable source. Therefore, verifiability trumps whatever we personally feel to be true. Cla68 (talk) 02:08, 19 April 2011 (UTC)
9. It's fine, and we understand what it means. (Those who don't can be pointed at Wikipedia:Verifiability, not truth.) And if you need to see the problems with demanding that articles present "the Truth™", then I recommend that you spend a while hanging out at articles about mental illness, where people occasionally name "personal experience" as a "citation" for claims about (for example) the laws for involuntary commitment in their home countries. There's an ongoing dispute in articles related to saturated fat about whether the mainstream view (eating a lot of saturated fat is bad for the heart) has been completely wrong for decades. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:31, 25 April 2011 (UTC)
10. The statement is fine because "the truth" can only be proven via verifiable reliable sources. Anyone can go and claim that something is not "true" and remove it from an article even if it's well sourced, that's why wikipedia is not about truth. --Enric Naval (talk) 13:37, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
11. As has been said above, surely better than I can say it, the present wording is fine. As "truth" so often depends on the viewpoint of the speaker, we have to use the standard of whether or not something can be verified from a "reliable source", and "threshold" is a succinct way of saying that verifiability is a condition that must be met for inclusion in Wikipedia, but doesn't guarantee inclusion. -- Donald Albury 09:34, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
12. Per SlimVirgin, Blueboar, et al. --causa sui (talk) 19:33, 16 June 2011 (UTC)
13. IT is core to the encyclopedia. As the community grows, more people will come not understanding this core principle, and not encountering lots of people to explain it to them. Misunderstanding core policy is an inevitable consequence of growth. The solution is not to change the policy that has contributed so much to WP's success and credibility, but to explain it better and to promote it more consistently. Slrubenstein | Talk 01:08, 17 June 2011 (UTC)
14. Oppose per the above. And if it is used to "justify the deliberate inclusion of information known to be incorrect," then that would need to be addressed elsewhere (and I agree that it should be addressed, if not judged as outright vandalism!). This part of policy is very clear and needs to be strongly stated as it now is. Dreadstar ☥ 03:13, 17 June 2011 (UTC)
15. Oppose. It says exactly what it means. It has the added value that it is shocking, and makes the reader start to think. And it has years of use and tradition. BE——Critical_{__Talk} 08:04, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

Discussion

• As above, my beef is that it creates an artificial dichotomy of truth and verifiability as distinct endpoints (which they are), but what needs to be emphasised is verifiability is a means to an end. Casliber (talk · contribs) 12:52, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

Comment: Amplifying Casliber's opinion, please consider these factors. --Tenmei (talk) 17:56, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

• WP:V "frames" each of our edits by providing generally practical, flexible templates which were crafted to help me and others find ways (a) to escape conflict and (b) to move towards areas of identified agreement.
• WP:V communicates in a way that logic alone cannot, especially when people are talking past each other at cross purposes and when a mismatch develops like a "chicken talking to a duck" (鸡同鸭讲 or 雞同鴨講) or when a white horse is not a horse (白馬非馬).
• WP:V is most needed because " ... the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already".

• Some people above seem to be under the impression that "verifiability" (or "whether a source says something") is an objective matter. It isn't, of course - determining whether a source is "reliable" in a given instance is no less a subjective process than determining whether a given statement is "true" (in fact it quite often comes down to the same thing - we conclude that a source is unreliable if the statements it's making appear not to be true). And pushers of fringe theories can exploit verifiability too - by insisting that the sources that support their viewpoints are just as reliable as those that oppose them (or even making WP reproduce claims from fringe sources as the truth, just because no-one happens to have found a mainstream source that specifically contradicts the claims in question).--Kotniski (talk) 14:46, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

Comment: Responding to the above and answering Kotniski's question here: Yes, we can not improve the wording of a significant sentence by deleting the key words "threshold" + "verifiability, not truth". The word "threshold" implies movement and the beginning of a process. This conceptual "threshold" emphasizes the pivotal distinction between (a) a fact which supported by WP:V + WP:RS and (b) a mere factoid which is associated with zero cited confirming support. Adopting Kotniski's words from an archived thread: yes, "in actual fact we do care about the truth of statements and don't mindlessly copy apparent errors from sources"; but this concern only addresses one of a series of plausible follow-up questions. This survey is about averting consequences which attend throwing out the baby with the bath water. --Tenmei (talk) 17:03, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

Couldn't "threshold" just as likely imply the end of a process? Passing a literal threshold means you've entered the house - you're home, dry, and can finally relax in front of the snooker. (And of course something doesn't become a "fact" by virtue of being supported by "reliable sources", or a "factoid" by not being so supported - I don't really know what you're trying to say with that.)--Kotniski (talk) 17:48, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

Q.E.D. -- compare what Blueboar wrote here. --Tenmei (talk) 19:08, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

• What about "Verifiability: The only practical way to approximate the objective truth"? Count Iblis (talk) 14:59, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

• Poll Results: After a week, it seems clear that the poll on this proposal is coming down to "no consensus", with roughly equal support and oppose views expressed. This usually means we default to "Keep as is". Do we need to continue, or shall we accept that the proposal is not going to be adopted? Blueboar (talk) 14:36, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
  • I'd be happy if people could see that they've lost when they plainly have... but I know that my own optimism and faith in my fellow editors sometimes prevents me from seeing such things myself when I'm on the other side. Consequently, I think we can reasonably expect another week of time-wasting arguments here. WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:39, 29 April 2011 (UTC)
    • Indeed. As previous proposals have been retrieved from the archives and restored to the page, I'm restoring this poll too. SlimVirgin ^{TALK|CONTRIBS} 11:33, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

We go with the source
of course of course
and no one may judge when the source is horse
that is of course unless the source is just inside your head
So go straight to the source and if it's horse
that's simply the info you must endorse
we're always on a steady course
repeating what's been said...
screwing with your head.
BE——Critical_{__Talk} 18:16, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

Proposal for a change in the first sentence

Template:Rfcid Shall we remove the words "not truth" from the first sentence of Wikipedia:Verifiability? 20:32, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

I've been gone and it got archived under the 5 day setting, but below is the lead proposal that emerged from the process here over the last few months. So now it is time to propose the change, with the alternative being "no change" We discussed the desirability of casting a wider net for input (which also means a longer time period for input) Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 14:01, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

Proposal

Replace the entire first (one sentence) paragraph of wp:ver with:

The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability; that is, whether readers can check that material in Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source. No other consideration, such as assertions of truth, is a substitute for verifiability.¹

...

Notes

1.^ For continuity, the previous version of this text read, "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth—whether readers can check that material in Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source, not whether editors think it is true."

The footnote would go in the notes section at the end of the policy and remain longer term.

Support

1. Support This change strengthens wp:verifiability by providing a clearer statement. At same time it corrects the problem that the current wording disparages the concept of striving for accuracy, and the negative impacts that such has had. The disparagement is indirect here, but much worse when that portion is taken out of context and used as a chant, as it often is. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 14:01, 10 June 2011 (UTC)
2. Support I think it's much clearer than the the current version. Laurent (talk) 14:08, 10 June 2011 (UTC)
3. Support as a move in the right direction (though there are still things wrong with it, as I have pointed out many times).--Kotniski (talk) 14:14, 10 June 2011 (UTC)
4. Support. My position is that this change is necessary but not sufficient, and I would prefer to see the word "threshold" changed as well.—S Marshall T/C 20:56, 10 June 2011 (UTC)
5. Support - an improvement - as I have said on this page before, the construction of a false dichotomy between "truth" and "verifiability" is misleading. Casliber (talk · contribs) 22:52, 10 June 2011 (UTC)
6. Support; many people here seem to fundamentally misunderstand what "verifiability, not truth" means, and it causes far more problems than it should. The proposed wording will eliminate that problem, and it won't enable the "truth warriors" because it says the exact same thing (that information must be verifiable) without allowing for the opposite extreme (people with a severe case of literal thinking who believe "verifiability" means we must source everything to secondary sources, when sometimes a primary source is more reliable, and that we have no respect for the truth and blindly follow the sources even when they're obviously wrong) to impose their standards. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 23:35, 10 June 2011 (UTC)
7. Support. In general, we do care that our articles are accurate, not just verifiable. The "not truth" language causes more confusion than it solves. — Carl (CBM · talk) 02:15, 11 June 2011 (UTC)
8. Support  (1) The lede states with emphasis that what we want in Wikipedia is "not truth".  It appears that some editors really believe that "not truth" is acceptable for the content of articles.  (2) The current text is not useful to explain to a reasonable editor why he/she can't just fix an article to say what a consensus of editors agree is true.  These are both unintended consequences of using a figure of speech in technical writing.  The solution is to remove "not truth" from what verifiability is about, and let WP:Editing policy bear the weight where it says, "on Wikipedia a lack of information is better than misleading or false information".  Unscintillating (talk) 00:59, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
9. Support. It is my opinion that this is wording has been responsible for much of the argumentation and downright silliness on en:wp. John lilburne (talk) 16:32, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
10. support. heaven forbid wp be accused of truth. Darkstar1st (talk) 16:52, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
11. Support This version says the same thing as the prior did, just in a more explanatory fashion than the often confused and misused "Verifiability, not truth" statement. Might I also note that, looking through the first five archives of this page, I saw no consensus or discussion at all about the addition of the statement or the section, which was added by Slimvirgin back in 2005. Silverseren^C 19:42, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
12. Support It's an improvement. The place for iconic crap is T-shirts and tourist traps. SBHarris 22:02, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
13. Support. I see more and more established editors arguing that striving for truth is not necessary, all we have to do is make sure someone else has said it before. That attitude fosters poor editorial judgment, given how often newspapers (and other sources) get things wrong. It's a vital change for this project. See WP:OTTO. --JN466 22:39, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
14. Support. The addendum "not truth" is redundant, potentially misleading, and does appear to have misled some editors into holding the absurd notion that an untrue statement can be "verifiable". By the standard definition given in any decent dictionary, verifiability is a stronger notion than truth and automatically implies it—it's simply impossible to verify something that isn't true. Strictly speaking, what you verify when you check a source which is cited as justifying an assertion of a fact X is not the fact X itself, but the fact that the source asserts X. If many reliable sources assert X and none contradict it, or even if a single highly authoritative source asserts X, and there is no other reason to suspect that X is false, it's reasonable to take X as having been provisionally verified. But if further evidence (which, for Wikipedia's purposes has to take the form of citable, reliable sources) were to be found to cast doubt on the truth of X it would then be no longer justifiable to claim that X itself is verifiable merely because there are some reliable sources which assert it. David Wilson (talk · cont) 17:56, 13 June 2011 (UTC)
15. Support, per most of the arguments above, but I do think that voting on such proposals is not enough to change things; what is needed is to come up with a new draft for the entire policy page, perhaps also NOR and the other core policies, and put those to a vote. Count Iblis (talk) 18:26, 13 June 2011 (UTC)
16. Support. Either remove it or change it to something along the lines of "Verifability, just as much as truth". Like Casliber points out, the current wording suggests a false dichotomy, where both verifiability and truth together should be the basis for the inclusion of any assertion. The current wording is the second most frequently abused formulations in all P&G, right after the fictitious "​neutral" point of view. --213.196.218.59 (talk) 14:45, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Oppose. There is already a straw poll at the top of this page that gained no consensus for change. This may seem like a small tweak, but it's a significant change in emphasis from the current first sentence. The current version has had consensus for years and reads: "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth—whether readers can check that material in Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source, not whether editors think it is true." The phrase "Verifiability, not truth" is iconic as a representation of Wikipedia's sourcing and neutrality standards, and there would have to be strong and wide consensus to change it. SlimVirgin ^{TALK|CONTRIBS} 15:41, 10 June 2011 (UTC)
2. Oppose -- as things stand Wikipedia gets warriors who are sure they know what the truth is; WP:V is an essential tool for ensuring that articles are written in ways that reflect sources rather than editors' beliefs about truths. As SV says, the proposed change seems small but is enormously consequential and should not be adopted lightly; it might seem like a way to solve some problems, but unintended consequences loom large here. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 20:42, 10 June 2011 (UTC)
3. Oppose, this needs to stand as-is, as Slim and Nomoskedasticity point out, this is a very consequential change for the policy that will do nothing but enable the truth-warriors. Verifiability, not truth is an important touchstone for the inclusion of material in Wikipedia and shouldn't be diminished by this major change in wording. Dreadstar ☥ 21:02, 10 June 2011 (UTC)
4. Oppose. I feel very strongly that the phrase "verifiability, not truth" is one of the most powerful ideas behind the success of Wikipedia. It's counter-intuitive to new editors, and the ability to explain it to them—as clearly as possible—has been invaluable countless times in avoiding needless disputes. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:05, 10 June 2011 (UTC)
5. Oppose. It's not broke, so don't fix it. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 22:26, 10 June 2011 (UTC)
6. Oppose, "Verifiability, not truth" is a good touchstone, I see no gain from the change proposed. --Nuujinn (talk) 22:36, 10 June 2011 (UTC)
7. Oppose because the principle that "just because it's true doesn't make it fit for Wikipedia" is rather important and oft-quoted. ╟─TreasuryTag►Regent─╢ 22:40, 10 June 2011 (UTC)
8. Oppose—the policy has long been "verifiability, not truth" and that's an important distinction that's been enshrined in our culture around here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Imzadi1979 (talk • contribs) 23:02, 10 June 2011 (UTC)
9. Oppose - Prefer the current language. This is a vital phrase in combating POV warriors and fringe theory pushers. Blueboar (talk) 00:18, 11 June 2011 (UTC)
10. Oppose Not broke, don't fix. AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:22, 11 June 2011 (UTC)
11. Oppose nothing wrong with the current wording. --Six words (talk) 23:25, 11 June 2011 (UTC)
12. Oppose for reasons informed by lessons learned the hard way --Tenmei (talk) 01:28, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
13. Oppose - the phrase has been a policy since 2005 (originally in WP:NOR).[2] I don't see a strong enough reason to delete this very stable part of a core policy.   Will Beback  talk  03:00, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
14. Oppose. Current wording is an essential part of policy, removing it will open the floodgates to endless wars among different individuals each possessing their own personal TRUTH™. Jayjg ^(talk) 04:25, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
15. Oppose - I think the current statement is essential to WP. -- Donald Albury 20:49, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
16. Oppose the present wording has done us very good service, and built up a large body of explanations and interpretation, which we should not lose. DGG ( talk ) 21:12, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
17. Oppose per Andy Slrubenstein | Talk 01:12, 17 June 2011 (UTC)
18. Oppose. per Slimvirgin. There is no problem to be fixed. The text says what it means, it means what it says, and it says it well. BE——Critical_{__Talk} 01:44, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

Additional comments and discussions

Slim, that straw poll was farther reaching. A "yes" meant agreeing with two declarations, one that the (overall) first sentence is problematic, and second that it needs to be rewritten. And even then half of everybody said yes. And, at the time, without any specific proposal; this is a very mild one. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 16:16, 10 June 2011 (UTC) Italic text

The poll asked whether the first sentence ought to be changed. It gained no consensus, and that's only on this page. You would need a strong consensus (significantly above two thirds) to remove "verifiability, not truth," which is a central idea in WP's policies, and you would need consensus far beyond this page. Lots of people have making that point for a few months, North. :) SlimVirgin ^{TALK|CONTRIBS}

Surely if it really is a central Wikipedia idea, it should be drawing in more than one-third support? Or to put it another way, if it only has the grudging support of about a half (or fewer) of the people who comment, it ought to be relegated from its position at the top of what is advertised as a key policy page?--Kotniski (talk) 17:30, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

The problem, as you know, is that a tiny number of you have been going on about this for months, and it wears most people down, who either don't bother to comment or comment once then wander off. That's why wide input is needed for fundamental changes to core policy, as a safeguard against the kind of thing that's been happening here. SlimVirgin ^{TALK|CONTRIBS} 17:36, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

It's hardly a fundamental change to policy - we all know what it's supposed to say (more or less), it would just be preferable to say it more clearly and accurately. Anyway, you seem to be voting oppose without any reason except that you expect people not to support it or you don't expect wide input, which seems rather premature (these are points to be made when the discussion comes to be closed). Do you have any argument for preferring the present wording - which tells people that we fundamentally don't care about the truth of what we write?--Kotniski (talk) 17:45, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

Slim, that's not what the straw poll question said if you read it closely. Second, I agree with Kotniski that this is not a change in policy, it's just a change in wording. If every change in wp:ver counts as change in policy, then you have changed the policy 5 times in the last 10 days. Third, you are bringing up that double standard again, but this even goes along with that, saying to cast a wide net for feedback and give time for lots of feedback. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 18:02, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

You don't have to read the poll question closely, North. It asked whether the first sentence needed to be rewritten. It isn't reasonable to keep on ignoring people when they say no. SlimVirgin ^{TALK|CONTRIBS} 18:08, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

Well, it's written for all to see, and we are describing the questions and result very differently. I say that a "yes" also required agreeing that the current wording is problematic, you say not. I guess we need to agree to disagree and let folks read it for themselves. Second, I resent your characterization of this as "ignoring people when they say no" and feel that there is no basis for such a strong and nasty statement, or even a milder version of it. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 18:55, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

SV we have a prime example of this nonsense festering its way though the santorum pages. One side has a bevy of sources using the the word and describing it as a neologism, whilst the expert opinion on the subject Partridge says it is NOT a neologism as it has not gained widespread usage. Which prevails RS or truth? NOT-TRUTH is fine for including articles on the paranormal and rejecting hearsay, it is not so good when it is being used to push an agenda. John lilburne (talk) 19:37, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

• Doesn't go far enough for me. A corrected first sentence should replace the word "threshold".—S Marshall T/C 19:36, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

So this is a baby step in that direction.  :-) North8000 (talk) 20:02, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

I'm glad you've confirmed that you're trying to change things significantly bit by bit, so the lobster doesn't notice he's being boiled. SlimVirgin ^{TALK|CONTRIBS} 20:09, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

I meant that as a way for S Marshall to potentially view this with respect to their comment. Further changes on this part would not be on my radar screen. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 20:38, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

It's the third time in the last few weeks I've seen you use the term "baby steps" to try to persuade people to support your changes to the policy. SlimVirgin ^{TALK|CONTRIBS} 20:42, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

I consider taking a small safe step to be a good concept. I had a proposal in the list but this one was somebody else's. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 20:53, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

However, this is a huge, unsafe step. Jayjg ^(talk) 04:28, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

Where's Crum? Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 04:34, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

Can someone point to evidence that the current wording is actually causing confusion? I'm not really convinced there's a problem that needs to be solved. Mlm42 (talk) 19:56, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

IMHO it's pervasive in WP that once a situation starts getting contentious and moves into wikilawyer warfare, the idea of striving for accuracy becomes totally rejectable. And people keep pushing and mistakenly getting the impression that the Wikipedia/Wikimedia mission rejects the idea of striving for accuracy. This is NOT true, that impression comes from the faulty concept of trying to reverse engineer a mission statement out of imperfectly worded policies, which is backwards, because policies are supposed to implement the mission on objectives, not define them. And this sentence which for some inexplicable reason feels the need to put a "not" statement into a statement of what IS required has contributed to that. And so IMHO every one of the zillions of statements when someone discounts the idea / goal of striving for accuracy is an example of a problem that this sentence contributes to. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 20:11, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

Well. Ok, but in terms of the wording, many of us simply do not see the problem you see, and these discussions have been going on for quite a while now. There's nothing wrong with the position that if there's no problem to fix, leave it alone. I just don't see any consensus developing here. --Nuujinn (talk) 20:41, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

So... you don't have any evidence it's actually causing confusion? Jayjg ^(talk) 04:28, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

To me, the proposed rewording has an identical meaning to the current version. The main difference between the two is that the current version has more emphasis placed on the contrast between verifiability and truth.. and I think it's important to emphasize that "verifiability" and "truth" are distinct concepts. The current wording does that well, as soon as possible. Mlm42 (talk) 01:35, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

On another point, I'm a little concerned that the line "whether readers can check that material in Wikipedia has already been published" is going to be misinterpreted as requiring free, online sources, or as requiring inline citations for everything (you know, because none of our readers know how to ask Mr Google whether a source exists). I'm not actually convinced that the primary purpose of citing our sources is to let the readers check anything. I think it's primary purpose is to help editors check the material. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:19, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

That's not a change; that exact wording is in the current first sentence of the policy. North8000 (talk) 11:05, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

True, but it still worries me. We've recently seen people fussing about non-English sources because they can't check the sources, and the demands for free, online sources have been so persistent that it's enshrined on the list. IMO "users" would be more appropriate than "readers", if we're going to have this. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:54, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

Reading the comments of those who support the proposal, and trying to see where they are coming from, I think part of the disagreement comes from the very reasonable concern that Wikipedia should not be implying that "not truth" is actually something we want. We want the truth as reliable sources see it, but not as Wikipedia editors see it. Consequently, what Wikipedia editors are tasked with doing is to find "verifiability, not truth", but this is done in search for what will be true. As many of us who oppose the proposal have said, if we ditch the "not truth" wording, we will open a floodgate of editors who want to push their versions of The Truth. Instead, would some sort of clarifying sentence, added after, be the way to make clear that we do not mean that we want "not truth"? I haven't thought through how to word it, but I think clarification may be helpful here. --Tryptofish (talk) 17:44, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

Seems reasonable to me. --Nuujinn (talk) 19:40, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

Seems reasonable to me as well and a possible middle ground.....where does that leave us on this? Wish you were there when we were developing/vetting proposals. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 11:09, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

The main issue with the current wording of the sentence and the better wording of this proposal, with the use of the word "assertions", is that the "iconic" statement seems to be saying that Wikipedia is fine with publishing lies, just so long as they are lies obtained from other people. I would hope that this is certainly not true. There is a reason why the term Wikiality was ever created in the first place, even if it was meant as a joke. We need to have an explanatory first sentence that explains what we mean by verifiability. We don't need a catchy little statement that is often abused and mocked for its ridiculousness. The question is, sure the statement Verifiability, not truth may be iconic, but do we really want to be iconic for a badly worded, mocked statement? Silverseren^C 21:26, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

Policy by mockery? We shouldn't make policy based on whether mockery exists, but we should consider whether the mockery is based on a valid criticism. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:54, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

FWIW, I love that catchy little statement, both in terms of the rhetoric and for the bulwark it provides against those who know the Truth. It's like WP's little black dress. I suppose I have read too much pragmatism. --Nuujinn (talk) 22:03, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

Obviously we shouldn't be making policy based on mockery, but it is based on a valid point. As has been pointed out before, just look at WP:OTTO. If we truly followed through with the Verifiability, not truth statement, then of course we should make that an article, since it's verified, even if it is an absolute and utter lie. Really, if we have to have some sort of statement, Truth through Verifiability would be much more conducive toward what this encyclopedia is trying to do. All in all though, I don't think we need catchy statements for everything, I think for this sort of policy, we need straightforward, explanatory sentences that fully explain how this policy should be used. Silverseren^C 23:14, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

Examples?

Unless I missed it, I haven't seen anyone provide a link to an argument that would have been avoided with the new wording? I think several editors (like me) haven't seen such an argument. The main case for the new wording appears to be that it will prevent some arguments from happening.. so I don't think it's too much to ask for links to a few good examples? Mlm42 (talk) 04:46, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

If one realizes that this one sentence is just contributory (not single-handedly holding the smoking gun) I could give you hundreds of examples, or start with a few. But it should be on the basis of the material hopefully being informative rather than for this User:North8000/Page2#Useful method to take a whack at any thought. Sincerely,North8000 (talk) 10:56, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

Just a few examples would be nice.. at the moment I'm taking it on faith that there exist any examples at all.. Mlm42 (talk) 15:33, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

" ... we do not especially care about truth, merely verifiability"

"Yes, the coverage may be wrong, but WP:V's instruction to aim for "verifiability, not truth" does not contain an exception for issues about which we assume to know the (sadly unverifiable) truth"

"It doesn't matter whether it's true or not. "Verifiability, not truth" is the policy."

" ... Wikipedia cares about verifiability not truth."

"I don't really care if any of this is true or not; Wikipedia is based on verifiability, not truth"

"Our policy has been explained to you: we want verifiability, not truth"

David Wilson (talk · cont) 15:12, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

Thanks; but to me, at first glance, all of these editors appear to be correctly applying the policy? If anything, these examples show how useful and effective the current wording is.. Mlm42 (talk) 15:35, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

I agree, and also note that verifiability policy is not the main problem in most of those cases--mostly the contentions is arising from poor sources, poor application of source, OR and bad behaviour in general. --Nuujinn (talk) 15:59, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

There still is a big problem here, let me give another example, you may need to browse around this diff to get the full picture here. Count Iblis (talk) 16:13, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

This example is as excellent as it is scary. --213.196.218.59 (talk) 16:29, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

I'm afraid I can't see how blatantly inconsistent misstatements of the policy can be an illustration of how useful and effective its wording is. All of the above statements appear to me to imply that the people making them think that it's permissible to have untrue statements in Wikipedia articles as long as they're "verifiable". But that's absurd—if something is truly verifiable it can't possibly be false.

In the last four examples, the editors making the statements are very commendably arguing for the exclusion of unsourced or poorly sourced material. However there's no need to resort to patently fallacious statements to do this. All that's necessary is to point out that policy requires the challenged material to be supported with a citation to a reliable source. There's nothing wrong with also pointing out that the truth of the disputed material is not sufficient for it to be included, but to say that it doesn't matter whether the material is true or not as long as it's "verifiable" is simply nonsense.

|n the first two examples, the editors making the statements are arguing for the inclusion of material on the grounds that it's supposedly reliably sourced. I didn't check what the arguments of those challenging the material were for excluding it, but for the purposes of what these examples were intended to illustrate it doesn't really matter. To make one's case for inclusion it's necessary to at least engage and refute the arguments of those who have challenged it. An argument that we're only aiming for "verifiabity" rather than truth can't do that since it's patently fallacious.

David Wilson (talk · cont) 17:39, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

If something is truly verifiable it can't possibly be false. Cue the philosophical discussion! :-) It's worth pointing out that the term "verifiable" in Wikipedia jargon may differ from other definitions. If something is "verifiable" (in Wikipedia jargon), then it's conceivable that it's still false.. after all, reliable sources aren't always right. Anyway, you appear to be disagreeing with the meaning behind the WP:V policy, not merely the choice of wording. Mlm42 (talk) 18:19, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

You are basically agreeing that the examples are valid......that the wording makes the policy get misapplied/misquoted. North8000 (talk) 18:22, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

Am I missing something? I think the policy is being applied correctly in these examples.. Mlm42 (talk) 18:28, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

What I meant was: "All of the above statements appear to me to imply that the people making them think that it's permissible to have untrue statements in Wikipedia articles as long as they're "verifiable"." are examples of the effects of the problematic wording. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 19:32, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

It depends on what you mean by "permissible" and by "untrue statements". For example, if there is reason to doubt a sourced statement, then one way to hedge is to say "Source X said that Y is true". Even if some editors "are 100% sure" that Y is false, that alone is not grounds for removal (maybe this is the point you are disagreeing with?). Specifying the source is one valid way to let an untrue statement into Wikipedia.. after all "Source X said Y is true" could be true without Y being true.

I'm still not convinced the wording is problematic.. the disagreements here appear to be with the meaning of the policy, rather than just the wording in the opening sentence. Mlm42 (talk) 20:25, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

I'm backing off from efforts to change the first sentence. I just wanted to not leave the examples section hanging.

On your last sentence, they always say "the test of how a law is written isn't what a good cop can do with it, it's what a bad cop can do with it. Since in Wikipedia, everybody is made a cop, so that test is even more appropriate here. North8000 (talk) 21:09, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

A possible middle ground?

Well this has been out three days. As indicated, the "wide net" includes a substantial time frame for folks who are not the regulars here to have a chance to find out about this and weigh in; I imagine we get the regulars quicker and the non-regulars later. There is a common theme from each of the "sides", on the support side it's that we don't want policy to say we want "not truth", and the "oppose" folks say that phrase is an embedded and useful way to reinforce the verifiability requirement.

One of the "oppose" folks (Tryptofish, 17:44 12 June in discussion section), endorsed by another of the "oppose" folks (Nuujinn) put forth the idea of keeping that phrase, immediately followed by a statement (my interpretation) that such does not mean that Wikipedia does not seek accuracy. Should we consider this possibility as a possible "middle ground" which could also provide a long term resolution of this? Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 15:48, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. I note that, below, there is opposition to new proposals, so I certainly don't want to tread on that. But, whenever editors here feel ready, it might be useful to discuss just one sentence to add, without taking anything existing away. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:29, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

Well we went through a full process to get proposals down to one before going out for this, just to avoid such complexities. I was thinking of it as more of a re-direction of the above process. I guess the proposal could be to leave the sentence as is and immediately after it something like "However, accuracy IS a goal of Wikipedia". I was thinking that if a few of the ardent folks from both sides say they like this, we'd float a proposal to both put this in and abort the main RFC. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 21:48, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

North, this has become disruptive. You can't keep filing RfCs, abort them when they don't go your way, file a new one, rinse and repeat. The community supports "verifiability, not truth." Even if everyone on this page were to vote to remove it, it would be meaningless, just as a small group couldn't vote on the NPOV page to remove that WP's articles must be neutral.

Please do as people are asking on this page, and either let the issue drop or open a subpage for further discussion. But we need several months of no more polls or proposals about the first sentence (or second sentence or footnotes that might dilute it, etc etc). This talk page is for discussing the meaning of the policy, usually for the benefit of editors who arrive here with questions. That has barely been possible recently because the page has essentially been hijacked. SlimVirgin ^{TALK|CONTRIBS} 21:57, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

What I was talking about was based on keeping "verifiability, not truth". --Tryptofish (talk) 22:10, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

Slim, I consider your characterization of the situation and my actions to be nasty and inaccurate. We're had a lot of chaos on this topic over the last several months. All that I did was propose and assist a process to methodically and calmly bring it to a real conclusion, one way or another. That was for people to brainstorm and list proposals, then pick ONE which would go to this stage, and then cast wide enough of a net to get it settled either way. I had a proposal in which did not make the final cut; the main RFC proposal IS NOT MINE, it was somebody else's that emerged from that process. Now I was raising the idea of using Tryptofish's proposal as a compromise. North8000 (talk) 22:22, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

It has been brought to a conclusion: there is no consensus for these changes. Maybe revisit the issue in another 6 months? A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 22:28, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

Folks were saying it needs a wide net, which is both time and places. It's only been three days. I think that we should make sure we do that. I just hope that it either clearly passes or clearly fails, I personally don't want to revisit it even in 6 months. Since the process was organized & methodical (unlike the previous random stuff) if we let it play out, I think that most folks on both sides of the issue would be more likely consider it settled under a good process. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 22:39, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

Fine, you have started an RfC, so please let it complete itself without trying to ask yet another question. SlimVirgin ^{TALK|CONTRIBS} 22:55, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

Conclusion

It has been about 3 days since the last vote. I think that the process was methodical and proper-looking enough so that it addresses both the specific proposal and the question of changing the core wording of the first sentence. With a near-dead heat by count (15 support, 16 oppose) this means that there is no consensus to change it, and no consensus to keep as-is. But I think that this means that the status quo prevails. As the one who sort of herded the process leading to this, this was disappointing to me, but also reassuring that it was arrived at via a process that was sufficiently broad and methodical, and I think without significant flaws or bias. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 12:12, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

Proposal for a change in the first sentence #2

Another proposal for re-writing the beginning of this policy. 22:50, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

Proposal

Replace the first paragraph with:

All material included in Wikipedia must be able to be verified in a published, reliable source. It is not sufficient for information to be true; editors must be able to check that a reputable source says it is true. Verifiability is a threshold for inclusion--a necessary condition which must be met before other considerations come into play. Not every edit which is verifiable must be included; other considerations regarding style and neutrality—length, relevance, weight, point of view, availability of better sources, notability of the subject, and editorial discretion—are important. Editors should consider all aspects of a source and its context before using it, so long as they do not engage in original research when doing so.

Support

1. Support as nom. I prefer it since I think it says what we mean, reflects actual practice, acknowledges the importance of context and editorial discretion, and is explanatory without being ambiguous. Is there support for such an approach? What are the drawbacks to going this way? Is it an improvement over the current version? I think there is interest in this approach. The drawback is slightly more length (3 sentences). For some, explicitly acknowledging editorial discretion invoke's chaos, but it means considering specifics, style guidelines, and neutrality issues within the bounds of original research. Which is what we regularly already do. I like the link to both NPOV and OR enhances the 'harmony' of the policies. Ocaasi ^{t | c} 22:50, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
2. Support I liked this at the time it was proposed. It spells out what we mean. --JN466 21:07, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Ocaasi, I accept your intentions are good, but the backdrop to this has been wall-to-wall polls and proposals since April—three already on his page, one just a few days old—several of them put forward by editors who do very little content editing. See here for a list. The result is that people are really fed up with it, and so just a tiny number of editors are left hammering away, which is the very definition of a lack of consensus.

   I think if people want to continue to discuss the first sentence, they should set up a subpage, so that this talk page isn't constantly being hijacked by these polls. SlimVirgin ^{TALK|CONTRIBS} 22:58, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

   SV, two considerations. There was a poll about changing the first sentence in general, then one of two ideas which received some support had a poll. This is the second one (proposal 43). I'm not sure a sub-page is really needed; if this page isn't for discussing changes to the policy, I don't know what it's here for. We keep getting in these disputes, not because people are misguided, but because the policy includes a mix of pith and ambiguity. Why not spell it out, say what we mean? That said, I understand these polls are getting old. I don't have more up my sleeve, but I do see the same issue with WP:V being a bit vague for new editors, and not well integrated with the other policies. So, I'd like to hear what editors think about this proposal. Ocaasi ^{t | c} 23:07, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

   But people said no to changing the first sentence, and some others ignored that and went ahead with other polls, which continue. The fact that we have proposal 43 tells you something.

   "Verifiability, not truth" is iconic. It can't be changed by a small group on this page. It has been extremely helpful for years in introducing new editors to the culture. They see that phrase and they suddenly get it. It prevents any group from taking over an article by claiming exclusive access to The Truth. And it reminds us that in many ways we're glorified (and perhaps not even glorified) stenographers. NPOV and "verifiability, not truth" are the backbones of Wikipedia; or as other editors have said, its secret sauce and little black dress. SlimVirgin ^{TALK|CONTRIBS} 23:15, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

   I absolutely agree that the counterintuitive "verifiability, not truth" statement is supremely able to make editors "get it". I "got it" by inwardly rebelling against that statement when I first started editing, then thinking about it, and then suddenly seeing what it meant. I am just concerned that editors these days sometimes use it as a justification to cut short discussion and include material, especially BLP material, that is not reliable, arguing that it does not matter if it is true, because it is verifiable (= someone else has printed it first). Perhaps what we really should be doing is to highlight that error in thinking, and add something to the policy that warns editors not to fall into that trap. "Verifiability, not truth", correctly understood, means "Your knowing it is true isn't enough to put it in Wikipedia." It should not be interpreted to mean, "We don't care if it is true or not, and you should not either. It does not have to be true for us to assert it as truth. It only needs to have been published." --JN466 21:25, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

2. Oppose, SV has laid out the issue nicely. My suggestion would be for those who have issues with the current wording pick up the notion of working up an essay on the topic. --Nuujinn (talk) 10:22, 13 June 2011 (UTC)
3. Oppose - This is beginning to become disruptive. How many polls do we have to conduct on this? The horse is dead... stop beating it! It should be obvious by now that any proposal that omits the "Verifiablility, not Truth" language will not gain a consensus. Blueboar (talk) 12:45, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

   If the first sentence of this proposal was "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is Verifiability, not Truth" and then its meaning was actually explained as above, you would consider it? Ocaasi ^{t | c} 15:06, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

   Not really... As I have said in the previous six or so polls... I prefer the current language. I do understand the concerns that underlie all this, but I don't see anything that has been proposed so far as being an improvement on what we already have. Blueboar (talk) 15:26, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

4. Oppose. Dear god, not again. I'm against this for all the reasons already stated in all the other previous discussions. Concur with Blueboar that these repeated polls are starting to become disruptive. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 12:56, 13 June 2011 (UTC)
5. Oppose per User:SlimVirgin. It is an absolutely fundamental mantra of Wikipedia, Hell will freeze over before we abandon it. Roger (talk) 18:21, 13 June 2011 (UTC)
6. Oppose. WP:LETITGO. —chaos5023 (talk) 21:39, 14 June 2011 (UTC)
7. Polls are evil, but I agree with the previous two comments. --causa sui (talk) 19:40, 16 June 2011 (UTC)
8. Oppose, I think. Mine eyes are getting bleary and these are looking all alike; over and over again. Unlike the powerful and clear statement "Verifiability, not truth!". Dreadstar ☥ 03:21, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

Threaded discussion

• It doesn't seem like much of an improvement to me. It perpetuates many of the flaws in the current version—the poor writing, the unnecessary circumlocution, the wordy passive hortatives in place of simple active imperatives, the word "threshold" in legalese (you might as well say "whereas" and "hereinbefore"), and in fact all the problems associated with the way this policy has grown: written by a committee with widely differing agendas about its function and purpose, developed by stealth-edits that are subsequently declared unchallengeable, revised in the light of hard cases, and now followed unthinkingly by the unthinking. You could fix it to an extent just by simplifying the circumlocutions ("be able to be verified"→"be verifiable"; "not every edit which is verifiable"→"not every verifiable edit"; "editors should consider"→"please consider", and so on). But unfortunately, sheer RFC-fatigue is going to mean the Anti-Change Party wins this one. I think that realistically, there's no way to remove the worst phrases from this policy for another few months, and any change will have to be accomplished by stealth-edits, the way so much of this policy was written in the first place.—S Marshall T/C 23:18, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

It's an unfortunate result of the double standard.North8000 (talk) 11:13, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

Are these expressions of Good Faith? --Nuujinn (talk) 14:44, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

All material included in Wikipedia must be able to be verified in a published, reliable source.

The problem here is that you often can't verify statments from single sources. So, "a published, reliable source", should be replaced by "published, reliable sources"

It is not sufficient for information to be true; editors must be able to check that a reputable source says it is true.

Here the problem is that verifiability does not mean that you can find a reputable source that explicitely says that a statement is true. What often happens is that the statement can be verfied from an entire body of literature. This is is often the case for scientific topics. It's not for nothing that it takes some years of study at university to become a scientist. Uncontroversial accepted facts are often not verifiable by direct citations to a source where the fact is presented verbatim.

Verifiability is a threshold for inclusion--a necessary condition which must be met before other considerations come into play. Not every edit which is verifiable must be included; other considerations regarding style and neutrality—length, relevance, weight, point of view, availability of better sources, notability of the subject, and editorial discretion—are important. Editors should consider all aspects of a source and its context before using it, so long as they do not engage in original research when doing so.

This looks ok. but only with the more liberal definition of verifiability. Count Iblis (talk) 22:14, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

Proposal for moratorium on proposals

A proposal that there be no more proposals for changing this policy until 09-01-2011. Count Iblis (talk) 00:57, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

Proposal

So many proposals have been put to a vote that it now doesn't lead to fruitful discussions. People have to vote to defend some previous position, as you obviously don't want the "wrong proposal" to get adopted. Therefore, it's better to agree to disagree on new wordings for a policy for the moment, say for three months, and work on new drafts quietly. People can then do other things, and discuss the issues here whenever they have time for the next few months. Count Iblis (talk) 15:41, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

Support

• Count Iblis (talk) 22:17, 13 June 2011 (UTC)
• This is getting ridiculous.   Will Beback  talk  22:56, 13 June 2011 (UTC)
• All these proposals sound like evil, dirty, nasty polls and create the misleading impression that enough "yes" votes make for some kind of binding resolution. --causa sui (talk) 19:33, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

Oppose

• Discussion is how we evaluate consensus. Requests for comment are how we gauge support and opposition, refine options, and determine what will work. We shouldn't make a habit of shutting down discussion for ideas that are controversial. Ocaasi ^{t | c} 20:39, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

• If you support change, then you should consider that while Blueboar's statement that "the horse is dead" is premature, it may still die of exhaustion. Count Iblis (talk) 21:28, 14 June 2011 (UTC)
• Maybe I'm misunderstanding the purpose of this proposal, but it seems that the idea is (a) to slow fervent, heated, and hasty discussion down a bit, not stop it entirely and (b) encourage people to resolve disputes through discussion rather than voting. --causa sui (talk) 19:38, 16 June 2011 (UTC)
• That is the question. Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune, or to take arms against a sea of troubles, and by opposing end them? SBHarris 20:56, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

• North8000 (talk) 11:50, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

Neutral

• Isn't this a proposal? :-) --Tryptofish (talk) 23:35, 13 June 2011 (UTC)
  • If it !passes, can we overturn it with another proposal? --Nuujinn (talk) 23:41, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

Comment  This is a WP:POINT and has no standing.  Unscintillating (talk) 01:02, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

Reply to comment. WP:POINT refers to disruption caused by someone proving a point, this moratorium will allow the discussions to go ahead but without everyone who feels strongly about this issue to have to be present here every day. Count Iblis (talk) 15:42, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

I'm not sure how I stand on the proposal, but I think it's a reasonable suggestion and not disruptive. --Nuujinn (talk) 19:33, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

"not truth" is a Figure of speech

The Wikipedia article Figure of speech has theory that helps to understand the problem in the first sentence of the Project Page with not truth.

A figure of speech is the use of a word or words diverging from its usual meaning.
. . .
Figures of speech often provide emphasis, freshness of expression, or clarity. However, clarity may also suffer from their use, as any figure of speech introduces an ambiguity between literal and figurative interpretation.

Thus, those defending the use of this figure of speech are also telling the world that we the writer's of this encylopedia lack sufficient skill in writing to write our policies without ambiguity.  Unscintillating (talk) 01:02, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

No... it isn't a Figure of speech... we actually mean what we say. Like it or not, truth is not the threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia... "but, it's true" has never been an acceptable reason to include material. We require verifiability. Blueboar (talk) 15:40, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

By claiming that not truth is not a figure of speech, Blueboar, you self-identify as a "true believer in WP:V".  Unscintillating (talk) 03:05, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

4500 totally unreferenced BLPs say you're wrong. SBHarris 01:44, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

We have to be more careful in our phrasing and our explanation. We are doing something other than saying "truth is not the threshold for inclusion", we're saying 'not truth', at the end of an unfamiliar phrase (threshold for inclusion). To clearly explain the meaning of a critical phrase is a good idea. Ocaasi ^{t | c} 20:41, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

It's actually a phrase that is put into a sentence about another topic (verifiability requirement), intended to strengthen the verifiability requirement, but which, as written, is prone to getting mis-quoted and mis-applied. North8000 (talk) 21:01, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

Is there a debate here? I am with Blueboar here. Slrubenstein | Talk 21:25, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

If you are with Blueboar then you believe that we mean what we say literally here?  Why is Jimbo quoted on the WP:V page, "Zero information is preferred to misleading or false information"..."I can NOT emphasize this enough."  Why does WP:Editing policy say, "...on Wikipedia a lack of information is better than misleading or false information—Wikipedia's reputation as a trusted encyclopedia depends on the information in articles being verifiable and reliable."?  What does the five pillars mean when it says about WP:V, "All articles must strive for verifiable accuracy"?  Are the WP:5 fundamental principles wrong?  Unscintillating (talk) 03:05, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

I don't see a contradiction between Jimbo's statement and Blueboar's.. actually, I'm somewhat surprised this discussion hasn't degenerated into a philosophical discussion about the words "truth", "knowledge", and "information".. these words mean different things to different people. Mlm42 (talk) 03:37, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

So you are claiming that Jimbo thinks that verifiable material that may be not true is acceptable in Wikipedia, and that Blueboar's acceptance of material that may be not true is material that is neither misleading nor false because it is verifiable?  Unscintillating (talk) 03:57, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

No, Jimbo was saying that we shouldn't be including something which is known to be untrue. You're confusing the concepts a bit; in particular the phrase "verifiable material" is being misused. Example: "X says the Earth is flat" can be a verifiable (and true) statement, even though "the Earth is flat" is not a true statement. Reliable sources can be mistaken about things.. reliable sources disagree.. we don't actually have to know the "truth" to write an encyclopedia. Mlm42 (talk) 04:19, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

Please soften the personal characterizations, it might help to add "IMO", IMO.  Unscintillating (talk) 06:35, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

I think that True believers in WP:V don't think that editors should spend time to consider if something verifiable may be not true, that their time is protected by WP:V; in other words, that Jimbo can't claim something is false without POV truth pushing.  Unscintillating (talk) 06:35, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

Also, that is a fallacy, that we can blindly write an encyclopedia without considering the accuracy of our sources.  A specific case, WP:ELNO requires us to know if the source is misleading.  Unscintillating (talk) 06:35, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

It's not a figure of speech. The sentence means this (probably called a "compound predicate" or some such to the grammar mavens):

• The threshold for inclusion is verifiability.
• The threshold for inclusion is not truth.

This is not complicated. The construction works exactly like "The book is red, not blue." That sentence also divides in the same manner:

• The book is red.
• The book is not blue.

Nobody would look at this sentence, which uses exactly the same grammar, and conclude that the speaker is opposed to books with blue covers. It's equally silly to look at "verifiability, not truth" and conclude that Wikipedia is anti-truth. WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:50, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

The problem is that what the sentence intends to mean is that the "theshold" to inclusion is desired to be(truth+verifiability) rather than (truth-only). It's easily misunderstood to mean (lie+verifiability) rather than (truth-only). Or (who-cares-whether-true-or-not + verifiability) rather than (truth-only). Which rankles.

In addition, there is the serious problem that policies are supposed to be descriptive rather that prescriptive, and a description of how WP is actually written, is that the inclusion threshold is indeed truth-only. HENCE the many, many articles (including those 4500 unreferenced BLPs) that have no citations at all. Most of Wikipedia (if you look at the info bit-by-bit) is actually still-unreferenced. Most of it continues to survive because a lot of people have looked at it and agreed with it as being "true," and left it alone even though still unverified (or at least uncited). That is how WP really actually operates. However (again) if by "verifiable" you mean "verifiable in theory" even though still uncited, that needs to be said up front and early. SBHarris 05:51, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

On "actually operates" it's amazing how few people notice that gorilla in the living room. North8000 (talk) 10:54, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

Sbharris, you seem to be confusing verifiABLE with verifiED. Unreferenced articles are frequently 100% verifiABLE. Material is verifiABLE if the source exists—that is, if an appropriate reliable source has been WP:Published somewhere in the world, even if zero Wikipedians have ever written down what the source is. Citations do not make material verifiABLE (which is what's required as the minimum standard for including information). Naming your sources makes the material verifiED. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:32, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

Um, that distinction belongs in line one, rather than waiting for lines three and four. "readers can check (in theory) that material in Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source.." So "you could look it up" as we say in arguments, even if we don't know where. And in addition, the "not truth" needs to be qualified to mean "not ONLY truth."

The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability plus truth, not simply truth. This means that readers could (in theory) check that material in Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source, not simply whether editors think it is true.

SBHarris 21:31, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

So where do I sign up to delete all that climate change stuff? You're actually proposing that that information must be both verifiable and True™ before we can include it. Well, I say climate change is not true, and that that there's no debate over abortion rights, that the riots in the Middle East aren't happening, and that Taiwan isn't separate from China, so Wikipedia shouldn't include any of that, according to your proposal.

This obviously isn't going to work. We cannot allow editors to decide for themselves whether something is True and only include what they happen to believe. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:22, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

I think that in the part of Wikipedia that works (non-contentious topics) that when there is a question, it's very common for the editors to decide which choice IS true/accurate, put in in and then source it. In the part of Wikipedia that doesn't work (contentious articles) this process breaks down; there either is no consensus, or somebody uses Wikilawyering to knock out the result. North8000 (talk) 21:32, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

So it is "not complicated"?  Is not the phrase "not truth" used to disparage people who come forward to represent the "truth"?  Is not the word "truth" there turned into mockery and sarcasm?  Does the word "truth" then "diverge from its usual meaning"?  Why did SV say earlier that not truth is "iconic"?  Does this not come from the "emphasis" of a figure of speech?  So why claim that it is not a figure of speech?  Please support removing this figure of speech from this technical writing.  Thanks, Unscintillating (talk) 07:00, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

It's equally silly to look at "verifiability, not truth" and conclude that Wikipedia is anti-truth. -- It's silly, because it's already clear from a cursory glance at almost all articles about any hot button topic. --213.196.218.59 (talk) 14:51, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

• If this was actually the problem, then we could say, "The threshold for inclusion is verifiability rather than truth." But to focus on the exact syntax, as this proposal does, is a misunderstanding of the problem.—S Marshall T/C 11:30, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

On the articles that work, the editors seek accuracy. On the articles where the current policies are an abysmal failure (basically all of the contentious articles) "not truth" is used to disparage the concept of accuracy when such will serve the POV warrior's purpose. North8000 (talk) 16:47, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

North, much as I support your intentions, changing this phrase won't end edit-warring, where people have different versions of what is accurate, and relying on sources is the only way to go forward. That said, we should emphasize in this policy that: 1) truth on Wikipedia is ascertained through a balance of the best sources; and 2) threshold means there are secondary considerations. Ocaasi ^{t | c} 17:09, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

As a result of the context, my comment overstated the role of the first sentence in the problem. North8000 (talk) 17:26, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

• The addition of "truth" a bad idea. We can agree (in principle) on what is verifiable; we can not expect (at least according to most theories of knowledge) to agree on what is truth. To nclude the word "truth" is a invitation to endless dissension and conflict for politics, religion, and countless other things also. The principle of NPOV, equally important to V, is that we leave the determination of truth up to the reader. TThe second phrase may be intended to explain the first, as saying that we consider ruth as being able to potentially trace all information to its source. But that is what Verifiability means all by itself. This attempt to modify the present wording weakens it. Some things we have gotten right. DGG ( talk ) 00:48, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

• DGG, the point here is that it's a sin against the basic purpose of an encyclopaedia to publish known error except to refute it. We tend to get this right in practice, for example in Climate change controversy—there are "reliable sources" that say anthropogenic climate change is a myth, but Wikipedia rightly decides to follow the scientific consensus rather than the media. Despite WP:NPOV, which can be summarised as "Wikipedia describes disputes but does not pick sides in them", when the chips are really down (such as in Climate change controversy or Young earth creationism) we choose to tell the truth even though there are reliable sources that disagree.

  This is usually described in terms of selecting the most reliable source, but the logic there doesn't work: how do we select the most reliable source except by deciding which one is the most credible, the most believable, the most likely to be right? And how do we decide that without deciding what's true?

  The reality is that there is such a thing as objective truth, and in cases like the ones I've mentioned, it matters.—S Marshall T/C 18:27, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

• But, and there is admittedly some irony in this, if we added "truth" the result would be editors pushing the non-scientific version of climate change using that language to claim that they were writing the "truth". --Tryptofish (talk) 19:01, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

• And we round the bend again. Anything that can be considered "objective truth" (and to be clear, I follow Pragmaticism on this) should be easy to source. How we rank sources to come to consensus varies from topic to topic, and are arrived at through discussion. For climate change, we use scientific sources. For other kinds of information, different kinds of sources are more appropriate. --Nuujinn (talk) 19:09, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

• Nuujin, you're right to say that "objective truth" is easy to source. Unfortunately, blatant lies are also easy to source, and sometimes, subtle lies too. ("A lot of the books and articles the contributors cite turn out to be no more reliable than Wikipedia itself."—Geoffrey Nunberg.) The basic problem with the phrase "verifiability, not truth" is that taken at face value, it allows almost any sourced claim to be made in an article and given weight. We do tend to get this right in practice, as in the examples I've cited, but we get it right by selectively disregarding WP:V and WP:NPOV.

  "Verifiability, not truth" is a soundbite and a good put-down for certain POV-pushers. I understand its attraction. Unfortunately, it's not how we really do things. In the really controversial material we pick and choose which source to follow, and we can only do that by deciding what can be trusted—and hence, what's true.—S Marshall T/C 19:41, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

Understood. But the problem is that we still need to be able to respond effectively to those POV pushers. Somewhere above, I suggested that we retain what you call the soundbite (and I think there is consensus that we should retain it), but that we also follow it with an explanatory sentence to address the issue to which you and others refer. It seems that other editors want a break from discussing further changes for a while, but I think we should revisit this possibility when we are ready. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:48, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

• I don't think there's any real consensus about the phrase "verifiability, not truth" at all. I wonder if the answer isn't to have a section about dealing with conflicting sources—which is conspicuously lacking from policy at the moment. WP:NPOV skirts closest to the issue at the moment, but I would think deciding between sources is more of a matter of verifiability than neutrality.—S Marshall T/C 19:57, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

What about a WP:Science policy (it currently redirects to Wikiproject science) modeled after WP:BLP? The BLP policy makes it very clear that accuracy (a wiki-politically correct word for "truth" :) ) is very important. So, one could also say that any Wiki-article in which a claim about a scientific fact is made must be an accurate reflection of what peer reviewed sources actually say on the topic.

This would then cover pretty much all the Wiki-articles where "truth" is more important than this policy page suggests. So by enforcing that policy one would intervene in the correct way while leaving the other sectors of Wikipedia, where "truth" means something else, alone. Count Iblis (talk) 20:17, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

• I don't know about that, Count Iblis. It seems to me that we have two established routes to truth: science and law. But to me, that seems tangential to the difficulty I'm trying to solve. For me, "verifiability, not truth" is fine except in the situation where two opposing or mutually contradictory viewpoints appear in different reliable sources. (I'll mention my examples of young earth creationism and climate change controversy again here, because they clarify the sort of situation I'm getting at, and hopefully reduce the risk of misunderstanding.) Where there's a tension between reliable sources we might describe the tension, or we might come down on one side or the other on the basis of which source seems more trustworthy or more closely in alignment with the evidence (which means we decide which is true). In other words, for me, the problem is more about mutually contradictory sources than it is about science.—S Marshall T/C 21:01, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

And there are other things (the birther controversy comes to mind), where there are differing versions of "truth", with blatantly different degrees of factual support, and which are neither science nor law. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:11, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

That's a matter of the historicity of a single event, which is often very difficult to establish. Legal and scientific tests can be involved (think of forensics) but it's not simply a matter of a combination of the two. And for non-repeating events in the past, archeology doesn't help, either. History per se has its own standards, and those are what are used.

Example: consider the John F. Kennedy assassination, which is history informed by science and law. The consensus of editors was to use the findings of the official government panels (of which there have been three) except IN ONE CASE where we didn't believe them (!). How did that happen? Well, they all three concluded that JFK was shot by Oswald alone. The last HSCA panel, however, concluded that there was recorded acustic evidence of an additional 4th shot fired too close to the others to have been Oswald, and thus a second gunman, and thus a conspiracy. However, they could find NO other good evidence for a conspiracy, though they looked harder than anybody has before or since. That last sound (recorded on a dictabelt) was the ONLY evidence for a fourth (missed) shot. After that commission disbanded a lot of good evidence turned up that the recording was NOT of the assassination, and thus the fourth shot, the second gunman, and the only good conspiracy evidence all vanish. Except that the government panel was not about to reconvene to admit that it had erred. So WP's editors decided to make the official WP version that Oswald had acted alone, but mention the screwed-up third panel and the later people who disagreed with this ONE finding of it (but not its many others). However, none of this consideration was given to people who disagreed with the earlier panels (Warren and Clark panels).

Now, all this may seem odd or hypocritical or not playing by any given set of rules. But that is what the majority of editors on this article think happened to JFK, i.e., what was true. It's probably also the conclusion of the majority of historians of the event, save those with an alternative theory and a book to sell. And alas, due to Oliver Stone, the general public doesn't agree with it, either! So alternate theories have been subbed (don't say forked!) off to their own subarticle John F. Kennedy assassination conspiracy theories.

Now, I happen to agree with the conclusion that Oswald acted alone, so I think WP got it right. However, somebody who does not agree with me is going to be very unhappy. All of this raises difficult issues about truth on WP, and how standards of truth-finding are arrived-at. Basically, there aren't any that are universal, especially for history. NOPV coverage of an event like the JFK assassination is basically impossible, do don't even suggest it. One steers by authority and (in a few cases) by later events that the authorities missed because they never addressed them, but many others have picked up since. But that narrative thread is based on editor's judgement. You can always find as many cites as you like for other views. SBHarris 22:42, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

In-text attribution

WP:V Policy needs to be discussed here not elsewhere

Any consensus regading this guideline needs to reached here. What FAC editors might consider appropriate for FAs is not criteria for this policy, which is designed as a policy for all articles not just FAs.--Kmhkmh (talk) 01:39, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

• Could you state the debate more fully, so that people who haven't been following the debate so far may discuss it appropriately here? Fifelfoo (talk) 02:27, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

Well that was my main reason for the revert. Whatever the discussion at FA might as far as this policy< is concerned it needs to be discussed here.--Kmhkmh (talk) 03:08, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

The issue is that we must add in-text attribution (e.g. "according to John Smith") when quoting or closely paraphrasing. This is common sense, it's normal writing, it's standard practice. For some reason, some editors here—Philip Baird Shearer, Kotniski—don't want the policy to say this. They removed it in March, and substituted a diluted version saying in-text attribution was optional. When I restored it on May 29, NuclearWarfare and Kotniski reverted; here are the versions.

But of course it isn't optional in these circumstances. To use someone's words without saying who wrote them is plagiarism. Ignoring that, it's also bad writing. I'm puzzled as to why anyone would object to this. It's depressing to have to keep arguing about it. SlimVirgin ^{TALK|CONTRIBS} 02:35, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

Plagarism is the presenting of another's unique or innovative opinions or hypothesis as one's own, it actually has nothing to do with "closely paraphrasing". I think that is why some are opposing of this strong wording because the strong wording is mistaken on what plagarism actually is. If SlimVirgin says "the Earth is round" I too can say "the Earth is round", even if Slim writes it in a book and publishes it, thereby copyright the sentences, I can write that to my hearts content. And length is not a matter either. Plagarism is not about words in a certain order or sentences, it is about abstract ideas. If Slim writes a book about a president who goes and kills his VP and uses his blood in a Masonic ritual to raise chluthu from hell to defeat the Chinese in WWIII, I can not write a similar book using completely different words, and it is not a copyright issue, it is a plagarism issue. Copyright issues are ones involving actually lifted text word for word.Camelbinky (talk) 02:46, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

No. Plagiarism is copying what I wrote and pretending that you wrote it. Or in the wikipedia context, copying what the author of a 1911 Britannica article wrote and pretending that you wrote it. It's morally indefensible. Malleus Fatuorum 03:02, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

Agree completely with Malleus Fatuorum. Lifting text from a PD or copyright free work, verbatim or through "close paraphrase," without specific attribution of the manner of expressing the idea to the originator is plagiarism. It is a morally indefensible practice. However, there is one portion of plagiarism which also applies: lifting someone else's concept, and presenting it as your own, is also plagiarism. This does not apply to Wikipedia, as we do not present our own conceptions (that would be original research). Fifelfoo (talk) 03:09, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

(ec x 2)Perhaps the first place to start is to define the difference between plagiarism and copyvio. From an academic point-of-view, plagiarism is to copy verbatim, to cheat. Copyvio seems to be a legal term - to violate copyright. Plagiarism is very much about words in an certain order. If SlimVirgin should think of a particularly poetic way to convey "the Earth is round" she owns the words she uses. To recreate them would be to plagiarise from her and to violate her copyright. Moreover, if ideas are presented in a specific order, using specific language, and those ideas are paraphrased, if the order is recreated, or any of the language used in the paraphrase, that would be a violation of copyright. The way around this is to attribute to the person who created the order and thought of the words, by in-text attribution. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 03:06, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

What a perfectly useless section heading-- I hope the level of discourse is better. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:54, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

The section heading has a reason, which can be understood by looking at the policy's version history.--Kmhkmh (talk) 03:34, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

I read this article today about a teacher addressing the 2011 Congress of the Canadian Federation for the Humanities and Social Sciences. She says her students work better when they know their work will appear on Wikipedia, because "despite its faults, [Wikipedia] does promote solid values for its writers, including precise citations, accurate research, editing and revision." Editing Wikipedia is therefore seen as part of acquiring a useful set of transferable skills.

I felt a small surge of pride when I read that, something I don't often experience when editing WP these days. We're not only here to present material to readers; we're here to learn skills from each other too, and from the writing process.

So why are there editors on this page who want to keep these skills hidden, who don't want to be part of the teaching and learning process? We're constantly forced to defend practices on this talk page that are perfectly standard in professional writing, and that young people will have to learn if they want to be writers of any kind, inside or outside academia. But this policy is supposed to pretend that these practices are optional, which—if people follow the advice—will lead to poor writing at best, and plagiarism at worst. That makes no sense. SlimVirgin ^{TALK|CONTRIBS} 03:03, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

What has any of this got to with intext attribution?--Kmhkmh (talk) 03:36, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

Students learning to do the right thing, unlike you. Malleus Fatuorum 03:41, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

Kmh, if you read the article, it says: "A student writing an essay for their teacher may be tempted to plagiarize or leave facts unchecked. A new study shows that if you ask that same student to write something that will be posted on Wikipedia, he or she suddenly becomes determined to make the work as accurate as possible, and may actually do better research." But here we are stopping the sourcing policy from explaining how they can avoid plagiarism. SlimVirgin ^{TALK|CONTRIBS} 04:15, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

We have a guideline on plagiarism to do that job (and we can link them there). Also the plagiarism topic as such is much more controversial than verfiability. There's a reason why one is core policy while the other is "merely" a guideline.--Kmhkmh (talk) 10:26, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

I found that rather motivating as well. Malleus Fatuorum 03:13, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

As it happens, this is very much true. Will leave it at that. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 03:21, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

@SlimVirgin: Because it is not correct per se but depends on the context. Moreover it has nothing to do with verifiability. The inline citation for some content ensures verifibiality, whereas the intext attribution is question of the writing style. Whether it is bad writing (or good writing) not to use an intext attribution, depends entirely on the context or rather the intention of the author. If I quote somebody or want to point out which person has stated a particular content (being closely paraphrased in the article) then I would use an intext atrribution indeed. However if I closely paraphrase some facts from a source, where the author of that source is of no particular interest for the article, then I would not use an intext attribution. Some examples:

• In Mean value theorem:

More precisely, if a function f(x) is continuous on the closed interval [a, b] and differentiable on the open interval (a, b), then there exists a point c in (a, b) such that

$f'(c)={\frac {f(b)-f(a)}{b-a}}\,.$

rather than

Eric Weisstein states, that if a function f(x) is continuous on the closed interval [a, b] and differentiable on the open interval (a, b), then there exists a point c in (a, b) such that

$f'(c)={\frac {f(b)-f(a)}{b-a}}\,.$

• in George Washington:

After the Battles of Lexington and Concord near Boston in April 1775, the colonies went to war. Washington appeared at the Second Continental Congress in a military uniform, signaling that he was prepared for war.

rather than

After the Battles of Lexington and Concord near Boston in April 1775, the colonies went to war. Accoding to Stilton & Rassmussen ' Washington appeared at the Second Continental Congress in a military uniform, signaling that he was prepared for war. --Kmhkmh (talk) 03:06, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

You're commenting from within a bubble, with completely the wrong idea. There are many, many, articles on wikipedia that have been copied word for word from PD sources without attribution, and that's not right. Malleus Fatuorum 03:10, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

I don't quite see what this has with "copying from PD sources without attribution". Nor do I I suggest such a thing, I was talking about when an intext attribution is needed and when not.--Kmhkmh (talk) 03:49, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

There are clearly many things you don't quite see, so let me spell it out for you. Copying what someone else has written and passing it off as your own prose is theft. Malleus Fatuorum 03:55, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

(to Kmhkmh) The reason PD text has been mentioned is that was the reason a couple of editors removed the in-text attribution requirement from the policy in March. They argued it would prevent them from adding PD text to articles, or copying words from one WP article to another. But yes, you're right, it's a red herring. You're arguing something different—that in-text is never needed because an inline citation is enough. As Malleus says below, this is like arguing it's okay to steal something so long as you say in a footnote where you stole it from. SlimVirgin ^{TALK|CONTRIBS} 03:55, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

(ec to Kmhkmh) It's plagiarism if you have copied someone else's words (unless the sentence structure is so common there's no point in changing it. e.g. "Paris is in France"). What do you think plagiarism in writing is, if not copying someone else's words? SlimVirgin ^{TALK|CONTRIBS} 03:13, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

I wasn't talking about plagiarism but about the difference between intext atrribution and inline ciatation/footnotes. But as far as plagiarism is concerned, plagiarism is not defined having or not having an intext attribution, but having no attribution. Note that an inline citation/footnote does provide an attribution as well, it is just not intext.--Kmhkmh (talk) 03:22, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

You are so wrong that Mr Wrong couldn't be more wrong. Malleus Fatuorum 03:25, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

The reason teachers are using Wikipedia as a teaching tool (as SlimVirgin mentioned above) is that students believe as long as something is cited, intext or however, it's not plagiarism. Even if the text is copied verbatim. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 03:29, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

Both of your historical examples are loose paraphrase of the source, you significantly alter the meaning of "wanted the job" to "prepared for war", you also contextualise it differently, and the paraphrased element is "a [military] uniform …, signalling [that he was prepared for war]." Three words, with major different clauses removed and added is not close paraphrase over a single sentence. Fifelfoo (talk) 03:18, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

A close paraphrase is copyvio in that the author's word order and specific vocabulary is recreated without attribution. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 03:24, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

yes but intext atrribution is not the only form of attribution, which is precisely the point here. Imho people are confusing the requirement for attribution (to vaoid copyvio or plagiarism) with a (non existing) requirement for an intext attribution.--Kmhkmh (talk) 03:30, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

Professional and other kinds of serious writers don't copy other people's words, then add a link in a footnote to that person's text, as though that gets them off the hook. If you believe writers do this, please provide an example. SlimVirgin ^{TALK|CONTRIBS} 03:35, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

SlimVirgin is right. This is depressing because, from what I can tell, there is real confusion about what constitutes plagiarism. Until editors can wrap their heads around that concept, the rest will fail. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 03:37, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

Why is this so hard for so many here to understand? If I copy the words you've written and then pretend or give the impression that they're my own then I'm a dishonest twat. Malleus Fatuorum 03:40, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

American high school students believe that as long as something is cited it's not plagiarized. They come to college with that belief and are sometimes quickly disabused. We live in a cut and paste world. The current culture is "oh it's fine - I cited it." That's why it's so hard. This, btw, is the reason teachers are bringing students to Wikipedia, and Google changed result ranking algrorithms to include original content. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 03:43, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

So as long as you say where you stole it from then everything's cool even though you don't actually admit that you stole it, by attributing it? Things have to change. Malleus Fatuorum 03:47, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

Yep. That's it in a nutshell. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 03:56, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

And since when is admitting a theft making it less of a theft? I really can't follow that argument.--Kmhkmh (talk) 03:53, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

Are you for real? What about the obvious option: let's not steal. Malleus Fatuorum 04:01, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

Exactly! So let's not commit copyvios rather than allegedly "fixing" them by (intext) attribution. However the PD content, you were talking about further up, can't really be stolen in the first place.--Kmhkmh (talk) 04:12, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

It's sometimes appropriate to quote or closely paraphrase—so long as we don't use too much of a text, but that's a separate issue. The point is that, when we do quote and closely paraphrase, we have to name the source in the text to signal clearly that these are not our words. SlimVirgin ^{TALK|CONTRIBS} 04:17, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

As I was writing above. If you are quoting somebody or it is of interest to the reader, who stated a particular content, then you use intext attribution. However if you are not quoting somebody and you have a very few "closely paraphrased" lines about some facts (staying short of copyvio), where the author is of no interest for the reader you might not use intext attribution, but just attribution with a footnote to insure verifiability in particular. Similarly if we use PD content (such as Britannica) we use a general disclaimer and/or footnote rather than intext attributions. In other words we use different ways to indicate, whether some content might not be completely due our own words and it depends on the context which one is the best to use.--Kmhkmh (talk) 04:43, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

But you reverted to a version of the policy that says even when quoting in-text attribution might not be needed. [3] So the next time a Wikipedian gets into trouble over this because the policy is unclear, I hope you'll be there to bale him out.

Can you show me an example of a professional writer that you've seen do this—copy or closely paraphrase other people's words without in-text attribution? I've been requesting this for months, just one example. The only examples I know of are writers who got caught plagiarizing, and who ended up being sacked. SlimVirgin ^{TALK|CONTRIBS} 05:01, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

It is a common technique in (good) journalistic articles, where journalists often rewrite/extend/combine content of which their publisher owns the legal rights. In such cases those additional contributors are usually mentioned in a disclaimer (or a footnote if you will) at the end of the article. If you haven't come across that yourself, you can find it described in Media Law and ethicS (point 3). As far as encyclopedic publishing is concerned, I'd assume that various publishers in doubt combine various sources they own the copyright for rather freely. After all content reuse is one reason for acquiring copyrights.--Kmhkmh (talk) 10:40, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

Do you understand what plagiarism is Kmhkhm? Malleus Fatuorum 04:21, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

I guess so.--Kmhkmh (talk) 04:46, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

Kmhkmh, FAC opinions are indeed "your problem", because policy is not decided only by the three or four editors who regularly hang out at the WP:V page. Jayjg ^(talk) 05:01, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

You got that half right. WP policy is indeed not decided by a few editors only, but even more so it is definitely not decided by those hanging out at FAC. The appropriate place to discuss this policy is here (or some other project page for dicussing core policies) and not the FAC project and that was precisely why I reverted your edit.--Kmhkmh (talk) 05:08, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

The problem we've had on this page, particularly with this issue, is that we end up recommending the worst kind of writing, rather than the best. That's not to say that we want to recommend impossibly high standards, but adding "Smith argued that ..." is hardly a mountain to climb. We have a responsibility to editors—particularly new ones—to recommend best practice, rather than shoddiness. SlimVirgin ^{TALK|CONTRIBS} 05:21, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

How about someone propose what wording to add on this to the policy and we'll have a straight-up vote on it? Cla68 (talk) 05:46, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

Proposed wording re in-text attribution

I'm not wedded to particular words, but I'd like to make clear in-text attribution is needed when quoting and closely paraphrasing, not optional. And to make sure it's under the "Anything challenged or likely to be challenged" section, not buried at the end of the policy under copyright. So I propose something like this, which would make that section look like this:

"When quoting or closely paraphrasing a source's words, add in-text attribution—as well as an inline citation—unless the source of the material is already clear from the context."

Support

1. Support. SlimVirgin ^{TALK|CONTRIBS} 06:36, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
2. Support. I haven't always followed this myself, but I don't have a problem with making it a rule. Cla68 (talk) 06:55, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
3. Support. Dmcq has a point: We still have a number of articles with a template saying that part of the article is based on Britannica 1911, and even a tiny number of articles based in the same way on other public domain sources. Such articles generally started with a version that was copied, and then got edited to some extent. But this is a rare special case that can easily be addressed by a footnote saying that using such a template is also OK until we have a proper article of our own. Hans Adler 08:45, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
4. Support - it's good practice in writing and we are supposed to be writing an encyclopedia. If you use someone else's exact (or close to exact) words, its important to make it very clear (through in text attribution) that the wording is not yours. This doesn't prevent the use of PD sources, just means you treat them like any other source that isn't PD, you must not copy their wording and pass it off as someone else's. Ealdgyth - Talk 13:53, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

   Talking about good practices in writing, it's hardly good practice to take a section which is supposed to be about one thing ("Anything challenged or likely to be challenged") and then go off on a stream of consciousness and start writing about something else entirely. Do none of you self-professed experts on writing have any idea about scope and structure? --Kotniski (talk) 14:12, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

   Kotniski has a point... I think it would be helpful to have a policy statement on plagiarism and attribution ... but I am not at all sure that WP:Verifiability is the right place to put it (and if so, is this the right section to mention it). I think it is important to keep a relatively narrow focus in our core policies... and not wander off into wider/related concepts. WP:V needs to stay focused on the necessity for "Verifiability". Blueboar (talk) 14:26, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

   Exactly WP:V is for verifiability issues and not for plagiarism issues. Furthermore intext attribution versus other forms of attribution is a style question and not even a question of plagiarism (which would be attribution versus no attrubution). WP:V is a core policy about (manadatory) requirements to ensure verifiability, it's neither guideline for plagiarism issues nor a style guide for "good writing".--Kmhkmh (talk) 14:37, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

5. Support. This critical part of policy should not be removed or watered down simply to make it easier for editors to avoid clearly indicating a source that has been copied verbatim. And I can provide tens of thousands of examples of articles violating every other part of WP:V (or the other core content policies), but that doesn't mean we dismiss the whole policy as "does not describe actual community practice". Jayjg ^(talk) 03:31, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

   It is not about dismissing a core policy, because many articles might not adhere to it, but it is about dismissing a style requirement that has no place in a core policy for verifibaility to begin with.--Kmhkmh (talk) 03:47, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

   I believe he was referring to WhatamIdoing's statement "Does not describe actual community practice. We can literally name tens of thousands of examples of the community failing to do this." ... That said, I agree that this is a stylistic preference that has no place at all in WP:V. -- Jrtayloriv (talk) 22:38, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

6. Support  We need in-line attribution for quotes, obfuscation with just a citation is a problem.  Somehow I thought this had already been decided as current policy, it is a good habit.  Unscintillating (talk) 02:33, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

   Yes, it had been decided, but Philip Baird Shearer and Kotniski removed it, so here we are again. SlimVirgin ^{TALK|CONTRIBS} 05:28, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

   Well it had no place in a verifiability policy to begin with. This policy is about ensuring verification/attribution as such and not what exact style has to be used for it. Also using inline attribution for quotes by individuals hasn't really been the subject of dispute, but primarily having the same for "closely paraphrased" statements and the incoroporation of PD texts and text donations. In such cases it isn't even clear whether an intext attribution is a good style at all (see various comments above) aside from this policy being the wrong place for handling this (style) issue.--Kmhkmh (talk) 05:48, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

   It's your opinion that it has no place, but it was because the policy didn't make this clear that several people got into trouble plagiarizing, by closely paraphrasing without in-text attribution. As for it not being clear whether it's a good style, find me a professional writer who quotes or closely paraphrases without making clear in the text whose words she's using. SlimVirgin ^{TALK|CONTRIBS} 16:36, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

   To avoid people getting in trouble with plagiarism we have a seperate plagiarism guideline, which we should point to from here but we don't have to restate it here. Furthermore plagiarism is not caused by having no intext attribution but by having no attribution and the latter is not a subject of dispute anyway, hence your argument doesn't make sense. As far as the writing style is concerned see comments by various other editors here and I've posted you an example including a textbook source for it further up (common practice in journalistic articles when reusing or augmenting older texts for which the publisher owns the copyright). But again whatever opinions one might have on various writing styles this is the wrong policy for formulating style recommendations.--Kmhkmh (talk) 05:59, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

7. Support it solves many problems and adds useful information, with no cost (the risk that people may think that only one person hold the view provided can easily be fixed through graceful writing) Slrubenstein | Talk 01:11, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

   Wich problems does it solve? And why does it add useful information in any context?--Kmhkmh (talk) 13:29, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

   Have you looked at the example above below from the featured article?  Unscintillating (talk) 21:46, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Oppose. This would mean those articles based on the PD version of Encyclopaedia Britannica would have to have inline citations to whatever statements from the original remained rather than a general attribution at the end. We'd have to do the same when copying a section from one part of Wikipedia to another even rather than just depending on a decent edit comment. Dmcq (talk) 08:05, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

   That gets several issues mixed up. This policy is about how to source articles Wikipedians have written. It isn't concerned with creating articles by copying PD texts (which would really be best left to Wikisource) or copying material from one WP article to another (a licensing issue). And anyway, following your argument, the requirement in this policy for inline citations would already affect those things. You're presumably not asking that we remove the need for inline citations, so there's no reason to ask that we not require in-text attribution when it's needed. SlimVirgin ^{TALK|CONTRIBS} 08:17, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

2. Oppose. The issue that DMCq mentions for the Britannica, holds not only for the Britannica case but for any text donation we might receive and other PD sources. That is the whole article or large parts of it are originally written by some external source (being used legally) and then get modified/extended/augmented by WP authors later on. It also applies to text cooperation and exchange projects that WP has, such as the one with Planetmath. More importantly from my perspective WP:V is a core policy for defining our mandatory requirements to ensure verifiability and as such imho it has no business of stating style requirements.--Kmhkmh (talk) 09:38, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
3. That wording is better than what was there before, since it at least makes one exception ("clear from the context" presumably includes the case an overall template saying that the whole article is largely taken from a particular PD source), but if we're voting already I would still oppose - it doesn't distinguish the common case of short paraphrasing of simple sentences, doesn't say how "close" is "close", and most importantly is quite off-topic for this policy and that section of it. This complex subject should be dealt with in detail at the relevant page (WP:Plagiarism), and people should be referred neatly from here to there, as they are at the moment.--Kotniski (talk) 10:23, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

   (Please note the current wording of the section to which it is proposed that the above sentence be added. "All quotations and any material challenged or likely to be challenged must be attributed to a reliable published source using an inline citation. Cite the source clearly and precisely, with page numbers where appropriate." And that's all. Adding the above sentence would mean that almost 50% of the wording of one of Wikipedia's crispest and corest policy sections would be taken up by an issue which is only incidental to this policy, and has virtually nothing to do with that particular section. If something like this needs to be mentioned, and it needs to be made prominent, get it over with by putting it in the lead alongside the reference to copyright.--Kotniski (talk) 10:30, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

4. Oppose Does not describe actual community practice. We can literally name tens of thousands of examples of the community failing to do this. I believe that Wikipedia would be substantially harmed by adding a hundred thousand instances of the phrase "According to the 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica...". We also occasionally use direct quotations of single words, like "controversial" to indicate that the word comes from reliable sources rather than from Wikipedians. "____ is 'controversial', according to Alice Expert" is highly misleading when Alice Expert's statement could legitimately be attributed to a solid majority of sources. We always need attribution; we do not always need in-text attribution.
   Also, although I expect this comment to result in a good deal of 'asking the other parent' (trying to add this requirement to as many other pages as necessary, until is successfully added to some underwatched guideline), I think that this particular policy would the wrong place to enshrine any such requirement. Even a direct quotation is still verifiABLE without knowing putting "Alice Expert said..." in the reader's face. WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:52, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
5. Oppose. Yes, but a quote within quote marks, followed by a footnote to the source of the quote, does not 'require' further attribution. It may be given, but should not be mandatory--the quote marks alert the reader to the enature of the content, and the footnote takes the reader to its source. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.255.0.102 (talk) 02:20, 1 June 2011 (UTC)
6. Oppose For the reasons I stated immediately above, I oppose altering the current wording of this policy.—S Marshall T/C 09:07, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

   Comment Several things here. First, it's unhelpful to overdramatise. Contrary to Malleus, plagiarism is not theft. Plagiarism is a matter of good practice and academic courtesy, punishable by complaint, disapproval and ostracism. Theft is a felony punishable by criminal sanctions. Second, it's important to distinguish between plagiarism and copyright violation. For example, incorporating material from the 1911 Britannica is not a copyright violation, but it may be plagiarism.

   I have no idea at all why it was like pulling teeth to get a mention of copyright in this policy, but adding text to deal with plagiarism seems to be a shoo-in. It's as if Wikipedians believe academic courtesy is more important than legal duty, and I sometimes despair of the inconsistency.

   Personally, I agree that Wikipedians should avoid plagiarism and that policy should say so. I do not agree that it's necessary to mention plagiarism in this policy, which is about the principle that things should be verifiable, and is far too long already. My position is that the phrase about in-text attribution belongs in Wikipedia:Editing policy, or any reasonable alternative policy that deals with how to edit, rather than here.—S Marshall T/C 09:07, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

7. Comment. Since my revert caused much more a stir than I expected and some might be have offended by the section title, I changed the title to less polemic one and feel the need list a few different points that got mixed up above and might lead to bad policy writing:

   The scope of this (core) policy versus the scope of other policies/guidelines/essays. This is in particular problematic if instead of just pointing to other guidelines, this policy explicitly restates part of their content here and hence effectively elevating guideline content to a core policy level. This scope of this guideline is to describe our requirements to ensure verifiability, it has no business in formulating style requirements.

   Confusing or mixing plagiarism and copyright violation.

   Confusing or mixing no intext attribution with no attribution.

   Confusing or mixing mandatory minimal requirements for articles in general (basically adherence to core policies) with criteria considered appropriate for good or featured articles.

   Confusing or mixing the lack of a style requirement in a core policies with encouraging bad writing.

   Confusing or mixing problems of academia or education with those of WP. WP primary goal is to provide correct encyclopedic knowledge for free ("compile the world knowledge") and this policy deals with the verifiability requiremrents needed to assure that goal. But it is not WP's goal to teach students proper writing skills/styles or attribution techniques.

   Slightly different notions of when something is considered closely paraphrased and when such a close paraphrasing constitutes plagiarism (or even a copyvio).

   --Kmhkmh (talk) 10:21, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

8. Oppose. Unnecessary clutter for a reader to wade through, and contrary to use in tens of thousands of articles here. Also, our informal usage here has been to only provide this kind of inline attribution when the source or topic is extremely contentious. Also oppose per Kmhmh's bullet points, above.  – OhioStandard (talk) 21:36, 1 June 2011 (UTC)
9. Oppose -- In some cases, it will make sense to require attribution. In others, it will unnecessarily clutter articles with redundant information. The only times that I see it being useful to add in-text citation for a paraphrased/quoted factual assertion is when knowing who made a statement somehow improves readers' understanding of the idea expressed -- that is, cases where the reader would have to jump down to look at a citation in order to understand the statement. If the 1911 Encylopedia Britannica says Cervus canadensis possess a remarkable set of large, snazzy-looking antlers and we closely paraphrase this as Elk have "large, snazzy-looking antlers"(citation), I think "(citation)" is totally sufficient, and that rewriting it as According to the 1911 edition of the Encyclopedia Britannica, elk have "large, snazzy-looking antlers"(citation) simply clutters the article, reducing its utility, with no real benefit. If there is a citation, we know exactly who the idea came from (the author in the citation), and I have yet to hear a good reason for repeating the information (all I've heard is "That's theft!" or "That's bad writing!", both of which are absurd). Because there are a wide range of situations where in-text attribution is totally useless, I don't think that a policy rigidly requiring it in all cases is a good idea. I do however think that it would be a good idea to include some guidelines on when it is and is not necessary, perhaps in the MoS and/or other writing style guidelines. -- Jrtayloriv (talk) 22:13, 1 June 2011 (UTC)
10. Strong Oppose - As stated in detail above by several users, this will hinder the use of other free content in Wikipedia. Simply add an appropriate attribution template per our plagiarism guideline. I'm open to requiring inline attribution via ref tags (allowing either the use of attribution templates, free form short messages, or by adding an attribution parameter to cite templates), but that has more to do with WP:MOS and WP:PLAG than with the Verifiability policy. --mav (reviews needed) 14:09, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

    Further, even the 'use in-text attribution where appropriate' clause is too open to interpretation and should be removed or modified to make it clear that in-text attribution should not be used solely or even mainly to avoid plagiarism; that less obtrusive steps need to be taken to avoid plagiarism per our relevant guidelines on that issue. Again, this isn't the best place to discuss this issue. --mav (reviews needed) 14:19, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

11. Strong Oppose because a requirement for in-text attribution belongs in NPOV or MOS, not in this policy. Further, in-text attribution implies the statement does not reflect the mainstream view of the matter, and is inappropriate when the statement does reflect the mainstream view of the matter. In-text attribution is appropriate only when stating a minority view, or when no mainstream view has been established. Jc3s5h (talk) 14:18, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

Note

This was archived by the bot before a decision was reached, so I'm unarchiving for now. SlimVirgin ^{TALK|CONTRIBS} 19:41, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

Summing up

I'm thinking it would make sense to ask an uninvolved editor to close this discussion, but in the meantime this is a summary of opinion from both the subsections, in the order it appeared.

• In favour of requiring in-text attribution (this version): SlimVirgin, Malleus Fatuorum, Truthkeeper88, Cla68, Hans Adler, Ealdgyth, Jayjg,

• Against: Kmhkmh, Camelbinky, Dmcq, Kotniski, WhatamIdoing, 174.255.0.102, S Marshall, OhioStandard, Jrtayloriv,

SlimVirgin ^{TALK|CONTRIBS} 19:52, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

• My position was that I have no problem with the text in question but that it doesn't belong in WP:V. It should go into some alternative policy or guideline.—S Marshall T/C 20:26, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

More discussion

Assert facts, including facts about opinions--but don't assert opinions themselves. What does this mean?

What we mean is that when it is a fact, for NPOV policy, (a piece of information about which there is no serious dispute) it can be asserted without prefixing it with "(Source) says that ...", and when it is an opinion (a matter which is subject to dispute) it can be attributed using this sort of inline-text attribution. Undisputed findings of reliable sources can be asserted without in-text attribution. In-text attribution is recommeded where sources strongerly disagree, not where editors disagree.

Most facts, except the most obvious ones - like “Mars is a planet” and “Plato was a philosopher” - must be verified through a reliable source regardless of whether it is a truthful statement. However, for WP:ASF, it is how we present the verified text from reliable sources.

Wikipedia is devoted to stating facts and only facts, in this sense. Where we might want to state opinions, we convert that opinion into a fact by attributing the opinion to someone. When asserting a fact about an opinion, it is important also to assert facts about competing opinions, and to do so without implying that any one of the opinions is correct. It's also generally important to give the facts about the reasons behind the views, and to make it clear who holds them.

Requiring an inline qualifier for widespread consensus of reliable sources on the grounds that it is "opinion" would allow a contrarian reader to insist on an inline qualifier for material about which there is no serious dispute, using the argument that the material is an "opinion". This would mean, in the end, that all material in Wikipedia would require an inline qualifier, even if only one Wikipedia editor insisted on it, which is not the goal of ASF. Presenting a "fact" as an "opinion" is needlessly attributing uncontroversial statements, and so creating the appearance of doubt or disagreement where there is none.

Requiring in-text attribution implies a serious dispute and is against core NPOV policy. SlimVirgin, are you trying to drastically change Wikipedia policy. QuackGuru (talk) 20:25, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

Indeed and this caused by pushing a style requirement (which at best in the case of a consensus belongs into a MOS guideline) into a core policy about verifiability.--Kmhkmh (talk) 21:25, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

I disagree with SV and agree with Kmhkmh in most respects. It is false that that " in-text attribution (e.g. "according to John Smith") when quoting or closely paraphrasing. ... is standard practice." It's standard practice only when it's a matter of opinion, or a contentious statement, or the exposition of that particular author's theory, or from an unusual source. Otherwise, footnotes are the standard practice in formal writing, and the mere authority of the author in informal writing; as we don't have the second alternative since nobody here has authority, we use footnotes.

But with regard to one particular point I agree with SV. Citing the 1911 Brittanica (or similar sources) requires an in-text attribution, because using a century-old source for any topic is not standard practice at any level for any subject. In some academic writing, citing the author's name in text is suffice, e.g., as Gibbon said, -- because everyone reading academic history will know Edward Gibbon wrote in the 2nd half of the 18th century. But if it were for a popular source such as ours, the date may be equally or more important than the author and must must be highlighted. There are no subjects where the EB can be used for except for historical opinion, or even if for facts, for a review of the facts as they were known & understood in 1911 by upper-class Englishmen. DGG ( talk ) 21:49, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

Hi DGG, you say you disagree, but can you provide examples of professional writers (academic or otherwise) quoting someone, or paraphrasing their words very closely, without making clear in the text where the words come from? I don't think I have ever seen this, at least not knowingly. SlimVirgin ^{TALK|CONTRIBS} 20:31, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

I actually agree with you here as far as the age of Britannica or a similar old PD source are concerned in particular if a big unchanged text block is used (so hidden quote if you will). However in practice we usually have articles starting with an old Britannica source but which have completely/largely checked and rewritten by several WP authors over time, so there that often won't be is large text blocks anymore that might be outdated. In those cases it be might impractical to assigning surviving individual sentences to Britannica with individual intext attributions and our general britannica disclaimer (the {{1911}} template and related ones, see Wikipedia:1911_Encyclopaedia_Britannica) being currently used might be considered an acceptable alternative.--Kmhkmh (talk) 05:41, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

Example from featured article

Here is an example from a featured article where I think that verifiability, or lack thereof, is a central issue calling for in-text attribution.  Robin Williams is a reasonably well-known and flamboyant writer...this sentence contains multiple citations, but does not make it clear that it is only Williams, and neither "some experts" nor the Chicago Manual of Style Online, being quoted; intext attribution I think would help:

Finally, some experts state that, while double spacing sentences in unpublished papers and informal use (such as e-mail) might be fine,^[91] double sentence spacing in desktop-published ("DTP") works will make the final result look "unprofessional" and "foolish".^[92]

Unscintillating (talk) 00:20, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

Continuing discussion

Thinking it over, I have been persuaded. first, to get agreement, second because we really have to do something to improve the current state of things. So I would now say.

1 it is absolutely necessary to have a warning when the sources has some special characteristic, especially some unexpected characteristic--and in this case, that the material is old enough that the interpretation is non-current and the facts possibly incomplete is a very important characteristic--I strongly suggest a narrowly worded guideline for this. The general disclaimer is not enough, because unlike 4 or so years ago, by now usually some of the article only is from the old EB,

2 it is also always necessary to identify in=text when it is a matter of special opinion representing one side of a contested issue, or not being mainstream, or--for an article about fringe--when needed to indicate whether or not the source is fringe or mainstream. Sometimes the name or the author and title of the publication may not be enough here; we tend to have conflicts using a descriptor.

3 It is always necessary to identify a pull quote, or a famous phrase --this should always have a least a word to indicate the source , e.g. "God does not play dice" should be "God does not play dice" -- Einstein.or "As Einstein said "God does not play dice"

4 Otherwise it is necessary to identify anything beyond thetrivial. We do not need According to the Daily News, '"the Yankees won the game 8-1"', or even 'According to the Daily News, the Yankees "won in a landslide"' as long at is sourced. But if it makes the rule simpler, we could even say that. I'd say otherwise, longer than a full sentence. But preferably be working it into the prose, as I just did.

5 For paraphrase, it is necessary somehow to indicate the extent paraphrased as there are no quotation marks to go by. A citation at the end of a sentence or a paragraph usually means that sentence or paragraph is paraphrase. "According to the Daily News, the Yankees won the game with 8 runs to the opponents 1." is clear enough, but it's sometimes trickier. this gives a reason for using quotes more frequently than we now do.

6 But I very definitely feel this must go in the manual of style or in WP:RS or as some other guideline, not in a basic policy like WP:V. Basic policies should be kept very clear and short, to permit interpretation by developing consensus. DGG ( talk ) 18:04, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

Just to be clear: are you agreeing that in-text attribution is needed for quotations and close paraphrasing (wherever we say it)? SlimVirgin ^{TALK|CONTRIBS} 22:51, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

Non-English sources for new material

I thought I would break this out so as to reduce the muddle above. Does anyone else see any benefit to saying something to the effect that if an editor is adding material to an article using foreign language sources, they are [obligated or expected or something similar] upon request to provide a brief summary translation or description of those sources, if the request is presented in a timely fashion? The idea would be that if, hypothetically, editor A is adding material about Eelmail from an article in a Urdu language source, editor B could ask for a summary translation and get something like "the Urdu language source is a review of Eelmail in a software magazine similar to PC World, and compares Eelmail to Squirrelmail" with a brief overview of the article (and I do mean brief). Since editor A has, in this scenario, recently handled the material, providing such would seem to be little work and a reasonable request to honor. This would not affect any current content, only new material. --Nuujinn (talk) 12:27, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

• If dealing with good faith editors, that strikes me as creepy, and if dealing with bad faith ones, overly gameable.—S Marshall T/C 13:55, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

@Nuujinn: reading the discussion above, the answer to your question seems a clear no.--Kmhkmh (talk) 15:39, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

Not so much to me, since the issue of removing existing content because a translation is not provided is the primary concern there. I'm curious about how this could be gamed, and the nature of your objection to the specific notion I'm suggesting, assuming that you have one and are not just summing up the discussion above. Is providing some kind of summary or clarification really that much work in comparison to the research, reading, citing and writing of the content? I can see objections to actual full translations as that is a lot of work, but that's not what I'm proposing here. --Nuujinn (talk) 16:12, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

various postings above clearly state neither a "mandatory" translation by the original editor editor nor a removal of the content (if the former is not provided) is wanted. To md that looks like a clear no as an answer to your question.--Kmhkmh (talk) 16:50, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

I don't know whether anyone but me sees a need for some change in this area, but honestly, neither of those issues is, as far as I can see, directly related to the question I'm posing, since I'm neither suggesting content be deleted nor that translations of sources be mandatory. It is simply this: to my way of thinking, if asked politely and in a timely fashion, one should always provide some characterization as to the content of a source that is not readily accessible to other editors, whether that is due to a paywall, or limited availability of a paper source, or a language barrier, and failure to do so approaches bad faith. --Nuujinn (talk) 19:56, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

That an editor "should" provide a translation out of courtesy is already in the current version of the policy. So I don't quite get what kind of change you are asking for now and the (stronger) reformulations you seem to suggest or aiming for have been declined by various people above.--Kmhkmh (talk) 20:20, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

Why must some people constantly think the burden should be placed on those adding material? Again- Policy is quite clear that to add sourced material it is only required that the source be verifiable by SOMEONE, not EVERYONE, and not necessarily easy for someone. This is dumbing down Wikipedia for the sake of the few who think THEY must be able to verify anything from their comfy computer chair in three seconds or less. It is not the burden of those doing the hard work of researching, getting the sources, and putting them into articles to make it "easy" for those who simply troll around wanting to verify everything themselves. If you cant read Chinese, perhaps you shouldnt worry yourself about the verifiability of sources in an article that has a plethora of Chinese language sources.Camelbinky (talk) 17:00, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

You're addressing the wrong person, that Nuujinn's issue not mine.--Kmhkmh (talk) 20:25, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

The original intent of the "provide the original non-english text and a translation" statement was to allow for verification of an editor's self translated material. Citing a non-english source is fine... but when there is no reliable translation available, we are faced with the question of whether the editor who added the material has (whether intentionally or unintentionally) mis-stated what the source says... whether the editor conducting the translation has accurately translated the source. In some ways, this could go under WP:NOR (it is one of those areas where WP:V intersects with WP:NOR - the argument being that a user translation is a form of original research). By requesting that the editor adding the material provide both the non-english text and his translation of it, we can call in fellow editors who understand the non-english language, to verify that the adding editor is accurately translating the non-english text and presenting what that text says appropriately. Blueboar (talk) 17:19, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

I agree with the last part ("we can call in fellow editors who understand the non-english language, to verify that the adding editor is accurately translating the non-english text and presenting what that text says appropriately."), but the point there is, that you can do all that without a the self translation by the original editors. The fellow editors understanding the language can check the citation and/or the original quote directly, they don't need the personal translation of the original editor for anything.--Kmhkmh (talk) 20:23, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

We can always call in other editors, and as someone who has a lot of experience with translation, I can tell you it's much easier when the material's fresh in your mind. But I think I'm really nibbling on a bigger issue, which is how do we verify that something is verifiable, and how open we expect or require editors to be with the source materials at their disposal, so I think I'll go off and think about this within a larger scheme. Honestly, though, I do not understand why it is considered so onerous to provide a brief summary or characterization of a source in a language you can read well enough to be able to use the source properly upon request. If the material is fresh we're talking about a couple of minutes of work. --Nuujinn (talk) 14:35, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

The issue is here is between desirable and mandatory behaviour. We probably all agree that editors should be forthcoming with their sources and help cleaning up potential issues, but that is different from requiring it, i.e. making it mandatory for editing at all. And as far as problem editors or edits are concerned, the summary is not solving anything. If I come across an editor or edit that looks questionable to me, why would a summary make it any less questionable?. If I have reasons to distrust some editor, most likely I have reason to distrust his summary or translation as well, hence quite often they achieve or solve nothing.--Kmhkmh (talk) 14:45, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

Please note that I have never used the word "mandatory", as I am sensitive to that issue. Obligated is the strongest word I used, and an obligation is not mandatory. I feel like you have been fighting against something I'm not proposing. As for the summary not solving anything, I disagree, as it helps open a door to others who may have some skills with a foreign language but who are not fluent. It's not about distrust of editors, it's about enlarging access to the sources. And you didn't answer my last question--even if it were a requirement, what would be so onerous about providing a summary upon request? Perhaps it is my academic background, but it just does not seem like a big deal to me, and I'm honestly curious why it seems such a burden to honor a good faith request such as this. --Nuujinn (talk) 15:36, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

For one thing, because a significant minority of these requests aren't good-faith requests. If you're in a dispute with WP:Randy from Boise, you shouldn't be stuck typing up what may be dozens of sources and dozens of translations, on pain of Randy getting to delete whatever he personally disagrees with. NB that this discussion was started because of someone at an AFD, whose response to discovering this policy was "consider this my request for the translations per WP:NOENG."—all the sources not in English, and solely because the sources are not in English. That's three-quarters of the sources in the article, with more than one non-English language represented. There is no reason to believe that there are any problems in the article.

Additionally, we're not talking about providing a summary. We're talking about providing word-for-word direct quotations plus the translation. Your summary of the source's material is exactly what's being disputed here, so another summary isn't going to prove that your first summary was accurate. I'm honestly thinking that we might do well to drop the translation requirement. Non-English sources really ought to be treated exactly like English sources. There are a couple of languages that I can decode well enough to determine certain kinds of technical facts and often to determine that the material added by someone else is likely correct, but that doesn't mean that I could necessarily provide a proper translation, even though I'd be capable of telling you which sentence or paragraph is the relevant one. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:12, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

I completely agree and it safes me from typing a lengthy to Nuujinn myself. In addition to your comment I'd also like to reiterate a point already made by Camelbinky further up. We should avoid placing additional not really necessary burden on our reliable editors. WP thrives of making by contribution easy and unbureaucratic (at least for reliable editors).--Kmhkmh (talk) 12:53, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

I'm sorry for being dense: "Additionally, we're not talking about providing a summary. We're talking about providing word-for-word direct quotations plus the translation" Maybe you all are talking about that, I am certainly not, and again, I feel as if what is being argued against is not what I proposed. In reference to the Foxmail article, that seems to be an example of how things work well, not how they fail. I have my doubts about the sourcing of that article, which led to this proposal here, but did not participate in the AFD as I don't have access to the sources and cannot evaluate them. I would feel better about that AFD, however, if at any point someone had been able to step in and say "this is what this article says". I'm not at all certain that most of the participants in that discussion had any notion at all of what the sources actually say, and that troubles me. Yes, WP thrives on being easy to edit, but we also accumulate a lot of cruft because of that (which is fine, they do together), and I see this as a way of reducing the cruft as it's produced. But as I said, I'll go off to think a bit and bring it up elsewhere in the more general sense. --Nuujinn (talk) 10:36, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

(←) Let's have an example:

• You are fluent in Lilliputian, and you read an independent, reliable Lilliputian source—let's say it's a typical, four-page article from a reputable political magazine—and you add information based on it: "The politician said that, with respect to foo, bar is obviously part of baz bat, and the bill he authored to clarify this was widely supported, passing the legislature with 93% of members supporting it." Your one-sentence addition is a summary of the four-page article.
• I see your change and somehow decide that you've screwed up. Of course, maybe I don't know anything about the subject, and I can't read the source you named, and maybe I haven't bothered to look for other sources, but I've decided, quite possibly for no good reason (e.g., that I hate the politician and don't want anything positive-sounding in his article), that you're making it up.
• I "challenge" it, that is, I demand that you prove to me that your summary of the source is accurate.

Now: If I think the summary you put in the article is wrong, do you honestly think that re-typing the same summary on the article's talk page, or slightly re-phrasing it, will make me believe that you are accurately representing the source's contents? If I think the summary you put in the article is an error, then why would I suddenly believe that the summary you type on the talk page isn't?

A direct quotation might convince me: I could (if the source is online or I otherwise have access to it) see that the direct quotation is actually in the source, and I could find someone else—someone whom I don't suspect of making it all up—to tell me whether the source and/or brief quotation from the source actually says what you claim it says. But if I believe that you're misrepresenting the source's contents in the article, I can't imagine why I would somehow think that you wouldn't also misrepresent the source's contents on the talk page. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:05, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

exactly--Kmhkmh (talk) 21:24, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

Verifying accurate use of sources

I have often come across statements in WP articles that, even though sourced, are incorrect and/or misleading. A check of the source text reveals poor and/or biased paraphrasing of the source by editors, out-of context citations, and other disconnects between WP text and the cited source. This problem seems beyond the reach of policy, but maybe it's worth saying something about the responsibility of editors to remain faithful to sources. Opinions? WCCasey (talk) 05:59, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

This is discussed (a bit) over at WP:No original research. If you come across something like this, feel free to fix the problem... by rewriting the article so that a) it better matches what the cited source actually says, or b) reflects what other, more reliable sources have to say. Blueboar (talk) 14:16, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

For what it's worth, I can observe that in the fairly recent Noleander case, ArbCom concluded that edits that inaccurately reflect the source material, in the ways WCCasey describes, can be regarded as disruptive conduct on the basis of their effect, and thus, whether the misrepresentation was deliberate or just sloppy. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:08, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

I'm not sure I'd address it here.

It's a problem, of course, but the fixes aren't always simple. For example, material that doesn't perfectly capture the view of a specific source listed for that sentence sometimes better reflects the balance of high-quality reliable sources than a "perfect" summary of the single source would. Every good editor has, at some point, named a good source that seems to somewhat over- or understates a concept, and used WP:Editorial discretion to avoid amplifying the source's excesses. Articles need to accurately reflect the views held by reliable sources as a whole, rather than the slightly idiosyncratic interests of individual sources. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:15, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

I think we are mixing up two different issues. One is NPOV: we provide an account of all significant views, giving due weight. Yes, a superb summary of one source can be misleading if that source does not express a mainstream view. The solution is to make sure that all significant views are provided and given due weight. Two is I believe a proper V issue - people often quote or summarize elements of sources but taken out of context. This is a serious problem when people think they can do research for WP using snippets or google books which often present elements of sources out of context, and are very weak on current significant sources. I think we always have to strive to emphasize the need for providing views in context, and we need to explain this clearly. Verifying that a view is properly represented is not a matter simply of finding a single quote that supports the edit, we need to make sure that the full context is represented. Slrubenstein | Talk 21:23, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

That's very well-put. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:27, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

Yes, very well put. And it leads to another important distinction: "good faith", unintentional misrepresentation of sources vs "bad faith" or intentional misrepresentation of sources. Good faith, unintentional misrepresentation is a common error on Wikipedia. Essentially it occurs when an editor does not doing proper research before writing something... when an editor writes "from the hip" and then goes out to find a source to support what he/she wrote... which often ends up being a snippet taken out of context. This is a flaw, but more forgivable than situations where an editor intentionally misrepresents the source (by say, "cherry picking" a quote, or omitting important information mentioned by the source). However, since we are supposed to assume good faith (at least until we have reason not to), both situations are best handled similarly (by politely noting the flaw on the talk page, and rewriting the article with better sources). Blueboar (talk) 22:31, 14 June 2011 (UTC)