User talk:Kwamikagami/Archive 12

Barnstars I, Ling.Nut award this very overdue Linguist's barnstar to Kwamikagami. Thanks for making the Internet not suck. Thanks for taking an interest in the language families of South America - they really need a hand! ·Maunus·ƛ· 08:32, 3 August 2008 (UTC) I, Ikiroid, award this Barnstar to Kwami for helping me with effectively editing language pages. The Barnstar of Diligence I, Agnistus award this Barnstar to Kwami for his invaluable contributions to the Origin of hangul article. The Anti-Flame Barnstar I think you deserve a golden fire extinguisher for helping me deal with that misguided revolutionary Serendipodous 10:47, 27 June 2008 (UTC) The Graphic Designer's Barnstar For your wonderful moon mass charts, I offer the Graphic designer's barnstar. Serendipodous 12:24, 5 September 2008 (UTC) The Original Barnstar For transforming Rongorongo from a sketchy, unhelpful mess into a tightly organized family of articles covering the entire Rongorongo corpus in a manner both scholarly and accessible, I award you this Barnstar. May it bring you much mana! Fishal (talk) 02:10, 11 September 2008 (UTC) The Working Man's Barnstar For getting all the EL61 links changed to Haumea (dwarf planet), I think you deserve the working man's barnstar. Must have been tedious as heck. Serendipodous 09:40, 19 September 2008 (UTC) The Original Barnstar Presented for your creation of the Malagasy IPA pages and your tireless transcription efforts. Thank you! Lemurbaby (talk) 11:44, 19 November 2010 (UTC) The Graphic Designer's Barnstar For your contributions to File:IPA chart 2005.png (better seen in the English Wikipedia logs since the move to Commons). In taking linguistics courses as an undergraduate, having a printout-size and easy-to-find IPA reference was indispensable. I will probably be finding printouts of this file mixed in with my college papers for decades to come; that's just how often I used it. —/Mendaliv/2¢/Δ's/ 22:31, 7 December 2010 (UTC) The Tireless Contributor Barnstar I, Stevey7788, hereby present you the Tireless Contributor Barnstar for your tremendously prolific work on languages and linguistics. Excellent articles, wonderful images, and impressive contributions overall! — Stevey7788 (talk) 23:17, 12 December 2010 (UTC) The Editor's Barnstar For your continued good work in articles on languages. Thank you. Drmies (talk) 00:55, 27 July 2011 (UTC) The Teamwork Barnstar I hope the script story will have a happy end :-) Bogdan Nagachop (talk) 21:47, 3 August 2011 (UTC) The Original Barnstar Hi there, I noticed that you edited an article that I created (Chay Shegog) and edited the pronunciation. I am a Shegog myself. I'm not bothered about your change at all. The emphasis is how you wrote it so shi-GOG. I noticed that you have done some stuff related to American Indians on Wikipedia. Are you of Native American descent? I've done some research and there is some evidence to suggest that the name Shegog is taken from zhigaag (so like Chicago with two g's and no 'o') which means skunk in the Ojibwe language. But all Shegog's I know pronounce it with a short -og similar to dog. Thanks, Shegan AGirl1191 (talk) 04:16, 6 March 2012 (UTC) The Tireless Contributor Barnstar Thanks for your recent run of newly-created language articles, and for your efforts to improve the encyclopedia. Northamerica1000(talk) 17:28, 17 March 2012 (UTC) The Original Barnstar thank for contributing us... Liansanga (talk) 00:23, 8 June 2012 (UTC) The Admin's Barnstar For your past excellent service as Administrator, and a sad reminder that sometimes ARBCOM can blow it - big time. HammerFilmFan (talk) 01:33, 6 October 2012 (UTC) Guardian of Hamari Boli Most sincere gratitude for your invaluable contributions to Hindi-Urdu related articles on English Wikipedia. Forever indebted to you -and wikipedia of course- for telling it like it is.. Amazing how you never gave up and went thru all the troubles dealing with zealots. Bravo! You're one of the inspirations that led to the genesis of http://www.HamariBoli.com edge.walker (talk) 22:01, 11 August 2012 (UTC) The Instructor's Barnstar This Barnstar is awarded to Wikipedians who have performed stellar work in the area of instruction & help for other editors. For your contributions to the Wikipedia:Manual of Style and especially for your contributions to Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Text formatting. Moreover, in providing examples of how to implemented the Manual in text editing and your great cooperation with me! Magioladitis (talk) 22:54, 9 November 2012 (UTC) The Resilient Barnstar For your WP rules following Saraikistan (talk) 18:41, 4 January 2013 (UTC) The Barnstar of Diligence For your linguistic contributions. We will carry on this professional discussion later because I will be off now. Regards Maria0333 (talk) 07:59, 7 February 2013 (UTC) The Original Barnstar For all-round good work, but especially this edit. Keep it up! Green Giant (talk) 09:12, 8 January 2014 (UTC) All Around Amazing Barnstar Dear Kwamikagami, thank you for all of your amazing contributions to language related articles. Your contributions are making a difference here on Wikipedia! Keep up the good work! With regards, AnupamTalk 21:25, 9 April 2014 (UTC) The LGBT Barnstar For your work over at Public opinion of same-sex marriage in the United States, the article looks vastly improved and I am happy to see there was an agreement made on the results. =) Knowledgekid87 (talk) 00:46, 25 April 2014 (UTC) The Brilliant Idea Barnstar Good job Sit1101 (talk) 01:53, 30 December 2014 (UTC) The Multiple Barnstar These are just some barnstars for some of the many amazing things you do here on Wikipedia, I don't know what this site would do without you. Abrahamic Faiths (talk) 21:06, 27 April 2015 (UTC) The Original Barnstar For working to help close RfCs and reduce the backlog. Wugapodes (talk) 00:54, 5 August 2015 (UTC) The Tireless Contributor Barnstar For great, expeditious and lynx-eyed reviewing and correction of all Aboriginal articles,Nishidani (talk) 16:37, 14 February 2019 (UTC) The Papua New Guinean Barnstar of National Merit Thank you for your many years of tireless work on articles of Papuan languages! Here's something to add to your long list of barnstars. (Although admittedly, this is just for "East New Guinea Highlands languages" and other Papuan languages on the eastern half of the island.) — Sagotreespirit (talk) 09:56, 20 April 2020 (UTC) The Original Barnstar Because you do an incredible amount of good work, and I am more or less in awe at how much you know. Also, I think you do not have enough barnstars. ^_^ Double sharp (talk) 05:06, 22 August 2020 (UTC) The Special Barnstar For creating the Tyap language article. Thanks! Kambai Akau (talk) 20:22, 14 September 2020 (UTC) The Mathematics Barnstar For getting Kaktovik numerals to good article status. Thank you Akrasia25 (talk) 18:22, 6 March 2021 (UTC) The Reviewers Award By the authority vested in me by myself it gives me great pleasure to present you with this award in recognition of the thorough, detailed and actionable reviews you have carried out at FAC. This work is very much appreciated. Gog the Mild (talk) 19:33, 18 September 2021 (UTC) The Editor's Barnstar Thanks for your tireless editing and ability to recognize the nuance most miss, do not understand, or fail to research regarding parliamentary law vis-à-vis a supreme court’s jurisdiction specially regarding Nepal Quaerens-veritatem (talk) 06:10, 24 March 2023 (UTC)
The colubrid Telescopus semiannulatus in an acacia, central Tanzania.		This user is one of the 40 most active English Wikipedians of all time. This user is a former administrator on the English Wikipedia (verify). Quotes: Only an evil person would eat baby soup. To shew that there is no tautology, no vain repetition of one and the same thing therein. In this country we treat our broads with respect. Words of the day: anti-zombie-fungus fungus

This user is one of the 100 most active English Wikipedians of all time.

IPA on Saulnierville, Nova Scotia

Hi; I just happened to be staying in Clare, of which Saulnierville is one of the component communities; there's a non-IPA pronunciation item on this page, and likely on other articles in the same grouping (Clare#Communities). Please note that the pronunciation should be in Acadian French, and may vary from "regular" Canadian French (Quebec French).Skookum1 (talk) 15:19, 1 October 2010 (UTC)

No, I just checked, & not on any of the others. Add the Acadian if you like (I'm unfamiliar with it), but we normally use standard French + ɛː, and that's all I was competent to add. — kwami (talk) 15:21, 1 October 2010 (UTC)

Diaeresis

Why are you and Erutuon ripping out content to make Diaeresis into a disambig? Please don't forget WP:FIXDABLINKS. --JaGa^talk 10:13, 2 October 2010 (UTC)

It partly duplicated trema, and once that was accounted for, there was nothing left but a dab. — kwami (talk) 17:32, 2 October 2010 (UTC)

IPA n vs. m

I generally marvel at your treatment of IPA transcriptions (although I sometimes think a simpler set of IPA characters would help readers more), occasionally I'm baffled. In this edit at Carnival in Germany, Switzerland and Austria, you twice represented an "n" (as in November) with a double-character rendered as m̩: "Fastelavend" = [ˈfastl̩.ˌɒːvm̩t] and "Fastelabend" = [ˈfastl̩.ˌɒːbm̩t]. With some enlargement, I can make out that there is a small dot below the "m", a symbol that I can't find in the International Phonetic Alphabet. I assume it's some kind of modifier. Now, when I listen to myself pronouncing these words, I can't detect any hint of "m" – my lips never close. To me, it's very clearly an "n", just like it is in the root of those words, German: Abend (evening). What does m̩ mean? Curious, Michael Bednarek (talk) 03:32, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

You're probably right.

The stroke under the [m] means it's syllabic, as in English rhythm. You'll notice, I hope, that that wasn't my transcription; I merely linked it up to an IPA template (IPA-xx for misc. minor languages) so that it will be more visible from now on and can be taken care of later on. I barely know any standard German, let alone Low Saxon, but I rather doubt that's correct. (For all I know it was supposed to be standard German, in which case it's obviously wrong.) I tagged it as 'dubious' and added a 'needs IPA' tag to hopefully attract s.o. who knows what they're talking about. You might want to put in a request at WP:IPA for German. — kwami (talk) 05:00, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

I'm terribly sorry about the attribution – I clearly misread the diff. I followed you suggestion and asked at IPA for German. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 05:50, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

Are "non-Min" and "Ping-Yue" Attested

I notice that you have added the categories non-Min and Ping-Yue to the [Pinghua] page, the categories used should be representative. There are many non's which describe Pinghua, why not say non-hakka? The dividing of Chinese into Min and non-Min then sub-dividing is not a system classification supported by the majority of linguists, the number of speakers of Min is less than 10% of all Chinese speakers, and as such should not be included as if it were a widely accepted convention. The classification of Ping-Yue has some linguist justification, though the categorization should be applied throughout but it is not use in say [Taishanese]. However the use of Ping-Yue on the pages which at present say Yue would lead to many objections, because whilst it has some justification it is not widely accepted convention, which suggests the correct place for information on the relationship between Pinghua and Yue is within the article itself, not a side panel. Johnkn63 (talk) 13:25, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

The number of Min speakers is irrelevant to the classification. There are numerous accounts of only being able to trace non-Min back to Middle Chinese, with Min going back further, though you're right, it would be nice if there were a non-negative term for it; I also need to confirm that this implies early divergence rather than simply greater divergence since MC.

• Jerry Norman, 2003, "The Chinese Dialects: Phonology", in Thurgood & LaPolla, The Sino-Tibetan languages, p 81

"It is generally recognized that the Min dialects ... lie outside the mainstream of Chinese linguistic development. ... Where in non-Min dialects ...., Min dialects show ..."

• Edwin Pulleyblank, 1984, Middle Chinese: a study in historical phonology, p 148

"Karlgren found tha, with the exception of Min, all dialects ... could be compredended within the phonological categories of ... the rhyme tables. There is very little in modern dialects ... (always excepting Min), which cannot be ..."

but again you're right; what we reconstruct as "Middle Chinese" is only one lect of many varieties of Chinese spoken at the time, and it doesn't follow that Min diverged earlier simply because they're now more divergent. — kwami (talk) 18:48, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

All good points for an article. Regardless of exactly when Min split off from the the mainstream of Chinese development, Min is the name of a branch, the mainstream is usually referred to 'Chinese' not 'non-Min'. By the same line of reasoning 'non-Min' should be divided into 'Ping-Yue' and 'non-Ping-Yue'. The lists of linguistics 'non-'s' is great, but it is very non-conventional to list them in a lects family tree. Johnkn63 (talk) 17:56, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

That wouldn't follow unless Chinese divides into Ping-Yue and everything else, and I'm not aware that it does. — kwami (talk) 18:49, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

Hi

Hello Kwami, I was debating with User:本本一世 on the creditbility of his sources, in section "Population figure citation?" of Sichuanese Mandarin talk page. Can you come and offer a 3rd perspective? --LLTimes (talk) 21:03, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

Generic trojans

Do you still think Jupiter trojan and the like should have lower-case 't'? I do. Rothorpe (talk) 00:42, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

Yes. Capital "Trojan" would IMO stand on its own.

I'll move it. It's been stable as lc for a month; the previous move was reverted because it was cut&paste rather than a proper article move.

Oops, Serendipidous changed the caps before I could do so. Should be discussed. — kwami (talk) 00:47, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I've commented there. Glad you agree. Rothorpe (talk) 02:04, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

The problem is a conflict between grammatical style and common usage. On WP, common usage generally wins out. "Trojan" generally is capitalized even when used as a generic noun. — kwami (talk) 05:14, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

Tchaikovsky

Hi! You recently moved the Music of Pyotr Ilyich Tchaikovsky page. I don't know if you noticed, but there was a move discussion going on on the talk page. The discussion actually favoured the target where you moved the article so no problem there, but apparently you forgot to move the talk page of the article, leaving it at Talk:Music of Pyotr Il'yich Tchaikovsky. I've moved the talk page to the correct location now. Also, when you move an article after a move discussion, could you also close the discussion by at least removing the {{movereq}} tag on the talk page so that people know that the request has been already actioned? Anyway thanks for your work :) Regards, Jafeluv (talk) 05:34, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

Sorry! Will do. I don't know why talk pages sometimes don't move with their article. — kwami (talk) 05:36, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

I think it's because the software for some reason doesn't delete the talk page even if you tick the "yes, delete the page" box. So if the talk page has any file history it has to be manually deleted. Jafeluv (talk) 05:58, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

That makes sense. — kwami (talk) 05:59, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

Croatian (continued)

Our discussion has been sort of drowned out by the rapid flow of postings at Talk:Croatian language. I'd like to continue the discussion here (or my talk page, I suppose. You decide). I'm particularly interested in the idea that the ~20 isoglosses that Greenburg provides are irrelevant to language (B/C/S/M) identification. What leads you to assert this? — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɛ̃ɾ̃ˡi]} 04:02, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

Maybe we aren't looking at the same thing. The map of isoglosses he gave does not correspond to ethnic boundaries, but to dialect. There are Croatian words and Serbian words, but they are typically borrowed vs. calqued vocab like the examples he gave, and cannot be easily mapped since Serbs and Croats live near each other. It'd be like trying to find Protestant/Catholic/Mormon isoglosses for English. The only way to get a geographic isogloss for those words would be to have ethnic cleansing. There are a few other things which tend to be Serb or Croat, but AFAIK most are used by both communities, they're just more official in one.

Do you mean the 17 isoglosses on Map 3 of the pdf I linked to? They appear to separate Sloven-Kajkavian on the one hand vs. Chakavian-Shtokavian-Macedonian on the other. I don't see how you'd pick S & C out of that.

I don't know about continuing the discussion. So far the "Croatian is a Slavic language!!!!" crowd have failed to provide any references; IMO Ivan's adequately debunked the unsupported claims that have been made. I'm sure there's a lot more to be said, and we're probably glossing over a lot, but I've spent much more time on this than I'm actually interested in it: European languages aren't my thing. — kwami (talk) 08:27, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

Sorry Kwami, but the Burgenland Croatian also in Austria, Croatia and Hungary officially language and not dialect. Doncsecz^talk 13:44, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

Okay, please change accordingly. — kwami (talk) 14:10, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

Okay, I'm discussing the issues with Ivan as well, so it's no biggie. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɛ̃ɾ̃ˡi]} 16:46, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

Serbo-Croatian

The best way to describe all the languages is by using the diasystem method, and the best uniting name for this is Central South Slavic diasystem. http://books.google.com.au/books?id=geh261xgI8sC&pg=PA518&lpg=PA518&dq=weinrich+diasystem&source=bl&ots=DW062gZ5ip&sig=a-zsU_fwYW3iNvlLzGyiJPGrE3s&hl=en&ei=A8mxTPbAA5OuvgObvImwBg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&ved=0CCkQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q&f=false gives the best reasoning. Serbo-Croatian can be as a separate article describing the history behind this standard, however the way the current languages Croatian, Serbian, Bosnian, Montenegran can be best described through the diasystem method, if you read the pages in the book this makes perfect sense. I would please ask you to reconsider when reverting the edit that I have posted. The Central South Slavic diasystem is used by the European Union. Vodomar (talk) 14:34, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

'Diasystem' and 'pluricentric standand' are pretty much the same thing in this case. The latter is easier to understand, though.

I once requested that we split the article into SC = the language vs. SC = the Yugoslav bistandard, but was voted down.

The term CSS is generally dismissed as being linguistically inaccurate (we've brought it up before); it's also unfamiliar (even among linguists, let alone the general public) and so fails WP:COMMONNAME.

However, if the EU starts using it, that would change things. Do you have any evidence for that? If, say, Croatia were accepted into the EU with its language being called "Central SS", so that Serbia could be admitted without increasing translation costs, that would be a very good reason to rename the article. — kwami (talk) 14:51, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

Wait till 2011 I guess. Kwami, just break out the big impressive book of languages you have and just source Vodomar's 's, may as well leave them rather then getting into an edit war over citation tags! It is, after all, a C-class article. I'm sure the numerous sources thrown around in various discussions contain enough to provide some sources for what remains. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 15:47, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

I can only empathize with you for trying to keep some resemblance of NPOV in that article and one in the section above. NPOV generally seems a lost cause on Wikipedia in articles that people care deeply about. (I saw your posts on User talk:Courcelles, which I was watching hoping he'd reply on trivial matter than unfortunately requires administrative rights.) Tijfo098 (talk) 20:01, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for any support you can provide. Israel-Palestine seems to have worked out beautifully (or at least it had a couple years ago when I read the discussion), but it required an insane amount of discussion. I made similar edits to Hindi and Urdu, and I'm been impressed: there's been remarkably little resistance, and what there has been has been mostly rational and thoughtful. Hopefully ARBMAC will keep things reasonable for Croatian. — kwami (talk) 20:09, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

ANI

Hello. This message is being sent to inform you that there currently is a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 02:12, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Pashto dialects

Hi, can you kindly check the Pashto dialects new article? Thanks! Khestwol (talk) 10:18, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Okay, will comment there. — kwami (talk) 16:01, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Sex positions

Actually, given that it's about a class of things, the plural seems fine by WP:SINGULAR; I feel no need to move it. --Cybercobra (talk) 08:45, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Sock Puppet to evade block

That anon IP at Croatian language is probably User:Jack Sparrow 3. Sounds like him, especially the "You don't speak Croatian, you don't have any right here" crap. --Taivo (talk) 14:24, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Probably. If it keeps up, I may ask for a check, but it hardly seems worth the effort for the ones who have to do the checking. — kwami (talk) 14:34, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

If he keeps flooding the talk page with his invective, though... I leave it up to you as to what to do and the best time to do it. --Taivo (talk) 14:39, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

"SC" - questions

User:Flopy asked some questions on my talk page and requested that you answer as well. I don't mind if you want to answer on my talk page. --Taivo (talk) 21:52, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

ANI/User:Kubura

Hello. This message is being sent to inform you that there currently is a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you. Keristrasza (talk) 11:57, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Good news

Hi, maybe your IPA-trained eye ear might find a hiccup, but I expect you can enjoy listening to my recent this and this. -DePiep (talk) 22:22, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Wow, that was a lot of work!

A few of the sound files are clipped. They only play the end, or just part of the middle: ɡ, f, v, ɬ, ɮ. — kwami (talk) 22:33, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Then let's focus on ɡ Voiced velar plosive: to me it sounds the whole sound file is played. Can you confirm the sound file itself is OK: To me it's technical (and fun), I cannot judge a phonetic sound now way. -DePiep (talk) 23:08, 15 October 2010 (UTC) Oops, back into context ;-) -DePiep (talk) 23:16, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

It should be [ˈɡɑː, ɑːˈɡɑː], but all I hear is [ɑːˈɡᵊ]. — kwami (talk) 00:16, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

So, the soundfile is wrong, not the new audio-chart. The filename (in my templates) is determined by using IPA-symbol --> {{IPAsound}}. So its ɡ --> Voiced velar plosive --> file:Voiced velar plosive.ogg. Again, I cannot change the file. ~.ogg-file wrong --> result wrong. -DePiep (talk) 00:24, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

I rather doubt it's as simple as the sound file being wrong, because that would've been caught. I assume it's a matter of it not being properly supported, some formatting that's different between the files for /g/ and /k/. But I think you're right is assuming it's not your table. The table seems fine. — kwami (talk) 01:38, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

The explanatory text with Voiced velar plosive, file:voiced velar plosive.ogg , says the sound you hear is as intended: "Pronunciation of a voiced velar plosive, [ɡ] between two [a]s : [aɡa]." So not a technical hiccup. -DePiep (talk) 20:34, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

I don't hear the second [a]. — kwami (talk) 20:39, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

My point is, that the creator (uploader) of that file described it as not being [ˈɡɑː, ɑːˈɡɑː] as one might expect. So no formatting or support thing then. -DePiep (talk) 20:42, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

Revert...

hello... I understand if you have some concerns about my addition. I thought it was meaningful, and decent info. I'm a little confused by what you said in your edit (revert) comment, that the edit was "misleading", and "just as it would be to say about English numbers." I'm not totally sure what you mean. Are you saying that Asimov (a giant when it came to understanding things like this) was wrong? Or that Roman numerals can't be scrambled that way, though generally won't be? And "decreasing value" is what's normally done? The point is that it's accurate and good-faith. And according to Wikipedia policy, only actual vandalism or truly inaccurate things, (or totally unrelated things), should be summarily "reverted". Undoing or reverting, per WP recommendation and guidelines, should be done rarely.... And not for good faith accurate edits or additions. I hope we can maybe work something out, or maybe move it or modify my contrib here, instead of just totally removing it. Let me know what you think. And thanks for your attention to this. ResearchRave (talk) 00:34, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

I'm sure it was in good faith, but that doesn't mean it was accurate. The year 1982 could be worded "nine hundred one thousand two and eighty", and it would be understandable, but that doesn't mean anyone actually says it that way. Do you have any refs that Roman numerals are ever used out of order?

You're correct, only vandalism should be summarily reverted. But any edit that does not improve the article can be undone. (I don't see much point in the distinction, but it's one of politeness.) — kwami (talk) 01:33, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

"Differences between standard Bosnian, Croatian and Serbian" article name

Do you think the title "Differences between Serbo-Croatian standard varieties" would be a more suitable article name than "Differences between standard Bosnian, Croatian and Serbian"? -- ◅PRODUCER _(TALK) 20:18, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

I prefer the current name, as I suspect that most people looking into it are coming from the POV of the national languages. — kwami (talk) 22:45, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

What about Montenegrin? --JorisvS (talk) 22:37, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

Not yet really standardized, though we could add it as well. I guess I don't object too much to the change of name, I just think it's more transparent as is. — kwami (talk) 00:43, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I know. Yet it is already mentioned in the article (and is included in the map). It would be strange not to include those bit and pieces of Montenegrin that are already kind of standardized, but IMO this should be reflected in the title. I'd say "Differences between standard Bosnian, Croatian, Montenegrin, and Serbian" is then really too cumbersome a title, though, I concur, more transparent. And if we change it to the suggested title I'd expect a surge of POV editors we are all too familiar with. --JorisvS (talk) 17:05, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

It should certainly be added, if anyone wants to take it on. That's independent of the move, however.

If we are going to move, might I suggest "Differences between the national varieties of Serbo-Croatian"? Seems to flow better with that word order. — kwami (talk) 21:45, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

Sourcing of File:Masses of all moons.png

Hi there, there was a request at WP:GL/I to vectorize File:Masses of all moons.png. I was hoping you could direct me to a source that has the numbers you used to create the graph so I can make an accurate vector. Thanks, Shep^Talk 22:34, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

If I remember correctly, I simply used the masses in the articles. The current listed masses may have been updated slightly, but I doubt enough to make any significant difference. — kwami (talk) 00:45, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. Shep^Talk 20:15, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

Stockholm pronunciation

Hi, I'm sorry to disturb you but I need some help about the Swedish pronunciation of Stockholm. The discussion continues here.--Carnby (talk) 22:43, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

I'm the wrong person to ask! — kwami (talk) 22:52, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

The distinct Urdu language

I speak American* (and so can you!)

*Actually, not.

First off, Kwami, we in the reality-based community are supposed to pretend to take Fox "News" seriously. After all, even the current muslin secular socialist POTUS does.

Well of course Urdu and Hindi are the same language -- but that's an observation from mere common sense, whereas it might be better to say that a language is a dialect with an army and navy; and as we know all too well, both India and Pakistan most certainly do have them, air forces, and even WMDs. (Though it's all a jolly good show.) -- Hoary (talk) 00:07, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

;) But on a more serious note, Hindi and Urdu aren't even different dialects. If Urdu were based on the dialect of Lucknow and Hindi on Varanasi, I'd have less problem accepting them as separate "languages". But when Hindi and Urdu speakers can't even tell each other apart, it becomes too much to swallow. This is a religious difference, more along the lines of Irish militants asking people to recite the alphabet to figure out which side they're on. — kwami (talk) 00:40, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

And certainly a thick mist of silliness does hang over many en:WP articles related the subcontinent. -- Hoary (talk) 00:52, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

IPA pages

Question for you - hopefully an easy one. I created Wikipedia:IPA_for_Manx_Gaelic so we can use the {{IPA-gv formatting as we have for {{IPA-gd etc to direct folk at a more relevant page than just the generic IPA page. But somehow the formatting isn't working (see Cammag for example) - it doesn't look like a redirect that's needed, so I'm doing something wrong but what? Akerbeltz (talk) 11:05, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

You need to create {{IPA-gv}}. Every language extension needs a separate template; even the empty ones (without dedicated keys) are redirects to IPA-all. You can copy the coding from {{IPA-gd}}. — kwami (talk) 11:26, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

Done, many thanks! Not that many languages in that list actually, oddly enough. Akerbeltz (talk) 11:35, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

Differing points of view

The new definition captures the differing opinions of the two camps of taught that has burnt a endless number of hours on this debate on the Croatian Language. This is in the spirit of Wikipedia - as this should be inclusive not exclusive of differing and valid opinions. Vodomar (talk) 02:14, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

The problem is that there are not two differing points of view within the linguistic references. You cannot claim Ethnologue to be a reference because it clearly includes Croatian within "Serbo-Croatian". You, yourself, have accepted their use of the term "macrolanguage" for Serbo-Croatian, which clearly and unequivocally includes Croatian. You have no sound references whatsoever within the English linguistic literature that do not include Croatian within a language usually called "Serbo-Croatian". There is no difference of opinion in the specialist literature on this. You have a POV that you are pushing, but you have no sound references for it. Your edit is just WP:WEASELly including your unreferenced POV. --Taivo (talk) 03:12, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

My gosh, all of you, WP:LEADFIXATION. Create a section in the article to fully explain both points of view, the linguistic and the social. Leave the lead alone for awhile. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 03:16, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

It's actually already discussed in the second paragraph of the lead. The first sentence should reflect the consensus of the overwhelming majority of the scientific community. --Taivo (talk) 03:20, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

Per WP:LEAD, that doesn't matter. It should be discussed in the article itself, not just the lead. Perhaps having both opinions explained in the article more fully will help solve things. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 05:20, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

I have no objections to airing the details of Croatian nationalist sentiment concerning the language in the article. That's where it belongs, not in the first sentence. --Taivo (talk) 05:24, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

We already have it in the SC article, and link to that, since it's not really a big deal for Croatian itself. But it wouldn't hurt to summarize it there. — kwami (talk) 06:22, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

Apparently it is a big deal for Croatian itself. I'll try and draft a section, can't put it in now though, obviously. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 08:18, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

I was hoping one of our level-headed Croat editors would draft what was needed, but I guess it ain't happening. — kwami (talk) 08:44, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

Well, unless they're looking at this thread, they may not have thought of it. Altogether waaay to much focus on the lead. Lead Fixation, I'm sure there's a wikilink to it somewhere... Chipmunkdavis (talk) 09:50, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

I thought Flopy might. — kwami (talk) 09:51, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

No doubt his input would be very useful. Oh well, there's three days to do it. Remind me why I'm associated with you lot again? Chipmunkdavis (talk) 10:02, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

I have two hypotheses: (1) insanity, and (2) masochism. — kwami (talk) 10:54, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

I'm going with 2. Anyway, unfortunately it was hard to separate fluff from actual sourced information in those long talk pages, but I created a bare-bones statement of fact attempt here. The EU was rather disappointing, it was happy to call Bosnian a standard of Serbo-croatian, but shied away from stating Croatian or Serbian were the same language, saying only they were closely related. I pulled the sources directly off the talk pages, with the assumption they say what editors said what they said in the talk page if I couldn't access/understand them. I'll alert Flopy and Ivan to the sandbox, hopefully they'll be able to add better sources for both opinions in southcentralslavicdialectsystemserbocroatianBCS. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 12:10, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

Wish I could find the ref: the EU has apparently indicated that it is not willing to accept Serbian and Croatian as distinct official languages, due to translation costs. I don't know what that will mean for Croatia's accession. — kwami (talk) 12:13, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

Those sources will become plentiful by next year I reckon. I now want a copy of that giant ethnologue book, that would look impressive to visitors. Feel free to edit the sandbox, if that wasn't obvious. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 12:28, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

I was at a book fair where they were selling the 15th ed. for US$20. They might still do that, if you just want it for your coffee table. — kwami (talk) 12:30, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

There's this [1] which suggests that the European Greens tabled a motion like that but were rejected, dunno if something more detailed is around. Akerbeltz (talk) 16:17, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

Because of some private obligations I will not be activ in next few days. I am also sysop on Croatia Wikipedia and bussy there because of that. For now: [2], [3] (".....with Croatian being treated as the 24th official language in the EU."), [4]. My problem is that my English should be better to be able write in the articles. --Flopy (talk) 19:46, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

Not to be picky Kwami, but you should undo your change to the Croatian language article. It's not fair if the rest of us can't edit :( Chipmunkdavis (talk) 10:12, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

My edit has nothing to do with any dispute in the article. It's due to an edit war over the map, where the uploader insists that "Bosnian" and "Bosniak" are separate languages, and reverts my corrections. Rather than edit war with him, I changed to the new file name. — kwami (talk) 10:15, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

Okay, well, it is done as best as I can now. I was struggling to find a title, so feel free to suggest a better one. I tried best to explain both views, and my intent is to directly copy paste it into the article as its own level two section. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 02:37, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Ganga -> Ganges

I have been observed that you have changed Ganga -> Ganges in many articles. In some articles, Ganga (Ganges in Hinduism) is used as denoting the goddess of the river, where the word Ganga is the right word. Please check the context before mechanically replacing the term using AWB. --Redtigerxyz ^Talk 16:13, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

I've been redirecting Ganga to that article where I've noticed it. The goddess, the Ganga dynasties, various celebrities and films named Ganga, and even the Kenyan city of Ganga were all linked to the article on the river. The links should now be more precise, though I'm sure I missed some out of the hundreds that needed changing. — kwami (talk) 16:23, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

Ganges is the exonym of the river. The source in Chapekar uses the word Ganga, why are you changing it to Ganges. What is sp/rd, replaced: Ganga? Yogesh Khandke (talk) 20:46, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

We use Ganges on WP as the English name, unless there's specific reason for Ganga. We hardly need to follow the choices of our sources, especially as they may contradict one another. — kwami (talk) 00:41, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

The use of exonyms is discouraged. Wikipedia is about verifiability and not truth. The quoted matter should shoe fidelity to the source. What does the edit summary sp/rd, replaced: Ganga mean? Yogesh Khandke (talk) 07:39, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

I've asked twice at the naming guideline pages whether national or international names should be used on WP, and used Ganga/Ganges as an example. I was told that it wasn't a good example, because it was so obvious that it should be "Ganges" that there was no point in discussing it. Their reason was that both Ganga and Ganges are used within India, whereas only Ganges is used outside India, so on WP the term to use is "Ganges". If you want to use the provincial form, then the way to go is to first get Ganges moved to Ganga.

It's also not true that exonyms are dispreferred. We use lots: Germany, Greece, China, Japan, even India itself. — kwami (talk) 08:02, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

I certainly agree that exonyms in general are fine when they're the common name in English, but is it really true that Ganges is the name in English of the goddess, as opposed to the river that embodies the goddess? Granted that it's a subtle distinction, but I have never heard of Ganges as the name of a goddess, only as the name of a river. Not that I'd ever heard of Ganga at all, or of the goddess (I knew that the river was considered sacred, but not a goddess), so obviously I'm no authority, but it strikes me as at least plausible that the name of the goddess would be different from the name of the river, even though they're the same thing (see Hesperus is Phosphorus). --Trovatore (talk) 08:22, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

I agree, as I've said above, that the goddess should be Ganga, and I've corrected links to the Ganges when it was the goddess. Sometimes, however, "Ganges" is simply anthropomorphized, in which case I could see arguments for either. There are also situations where it's appropriate to use the local form, such as with etymologies of names which contain Ganga. — kwami (talk) 08:26, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

I can only speak for the name India which is what Indians themselves call India, when referring to it in English, however the Indian spelling for the River Ganga is Ganga in English too. See this link [5], Times of India, Hindustan Times and others use the appellation Ganga, only BBC and Australians use the archaic Ganges, perhaps if you wish, I will put a disclaimer that Indian English spellings and endonyms are used in the said article. I have seen such disclaimers elsewhere. Using Ganges is like using Cawnpore for Kanpur! The Bangladeshis call their capital Dhaka, the British persist in using Dacca, same story for Canton and Guanzhou. It is similar here. Yogesh Khandke (talk) 14:08, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

I've tried asking how in general we should handle this, and have failed to get an answer. But Ganges is not "archaic", it's the normal word for the river. In India, both forms are used by the government. Outside of India, pretty much only "Ganges" is used. Everyone knows what the Ganges is, but most English speakers have never heard of "Ganga". If you polled people, I suspect that most would think you mean marijuana. — kwami (talk) 14:20, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

I have substantiated my arguments with an example. You are merely speculating. I have suggested that a disclaimer be put on the article. The name also carries links. A large proportion of English speakers are from the Indian sub-continent, they all know what Ganga means. How can River Ganga be confused with marijuana? Yogesh Khandke (talk) 14:27, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

If you ask people what "Ganga" means, they'll think you mean "marijuana". (e.g.)

My Webster's dictionary, for example, has a 100-page appendix of geographical names. "Ganga" is not listed. It's not even listed as an alternate form under "Ganges", which of course is listed. So it's a question of a local/national form which no-one else will recognize, vs. an international form which everyone will recognize. That's why on the guide talk pages they said it's no contest.

Using British etc. spellings is a different matter: everyone can read it even if they don't use it themselves. Using names that normal English speakers outside the country don't know, when there's a perfectly good name that they do know, violates WP:COMMONNAME. — kwami (talk) 14:31, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

Yogesh, sometimes the commonly known names change - Peking is now Beijing and most folk can relate Mumbai to Bombay. But the thing is, it's a retroactive step to introduce these into dictionaries and encyclopaedias; they don't prescribe new words, they list "what's out there in common use". Now it may be that in *India* people know what Ganga refers to but in terms of global English, I must concur with kwami. Without context, my first guess would have been weed (see Ganga (disambiguation)), with context, I might have guessed at Ganges but wouldn't have been sure. One day, when as many people abroad use Ganga for Ganges, same as they do Beijing, then fine, but not until then. And I suspect that might not happen, Mumbai and Beijing are cities that are permanently in the news. The Ganges/Ganga just doesn't crop up often enough for that to happen I feel. Akerbeltz (talk) 14:38, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

And as an aside, it cuts both ways. If we were to expect people to abandon all historical place name variants, however inaccurate, I'm assuming all of India would stop calling Germany Germany and start calling it Deutschland? Some of these names are just part of the history of a people and their language. You probably call Alexander the Great something no Greek would ever understand... Akerbeltz (talk) 14:41, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

There is no scope for ambiguity with internal links provided. The river's Indian name is not only Ganga, but also that is what it is called in English too in India and the subcontinent, hundereds of millions of English users. There is a clear understanding in Wikipedia that the subject should govern the style of spelling of the article. Chapekar brothers is an Indian subject and so uses Indian spellings including for proper nouns. I have provided proof that Indian publications like Times of India, Hindustan Times, the government, others use Ganga, for hundreds of millions of Indians Ganga leaves no scope for any ambiguity? Many times Britishers pronounced Gandhi Ghandi, should that spelling be used. There are many instances for that spelling too. [6] Germany is called Germany by the Germans in English, India is called India by Indians in English, the river is called Ganga by Indians in English. Yogesh Khandke (talk) 14:52, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

See this search result for river Ganga. I do not see any link to marijuana anywhere [7]Yogesh Khandke (talk) 14:57, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

Well of course, if you put "river" in it! What would you expect? See this search result for smoke ganga. I don't see a link to the Ganges anywhere.[8] Most of our articles didn't say "River Ganga", they just said "Ganga". But even "River Ganga" is inadequate: it's obviously a river, but people won't know which river.

Anyway, I'm not the one you need to convince, it's everyone else in the world outside India. Consensus is for "Ganges"; if you wish to change the consensus, you should bring it up at the main article, as various Indian editors have done many times before. — kwami (talk) 15:00, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

There are many words in English that have the same spellings but different meanings; we understand the meaning by the context. In the article Chapekar was referring to a bath he took in the river Ganga, with the initial letter capitalised. No scope for any ambiguity. Please comment on Ghandi too. Yogesh Khandke (talk) 15:06, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

I don't care about 'Ghandi'. "Ganga" is not an English word outside India. If you want to change the WP consensus, then start a discussion. Even if you convince me, the article will stay at "Ganges" until you convince others to move it, and if the article is at Ganges, we should call it Ganges. — kwami (talk) 15:11, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

See the article Xuanzang, see the many Romanisations, when I went to school (1970s) we used the spelling Hiuen Tsiang, my daughter’s text book uses the spelling Yuan Chwang, would you go on editing all other variations? Each article has an equilibrium, the Ganges article has achieved its for the moment. The Chapekar brothers article uses the spelling Ganga, there is no ambiguity about what it refers too. Why do you have a problem with that. Ghandi is just an example how, names are difficult to pronounce, and so they are changed to what is comfortable to that language. Ganga is an Indian spelling for an Indian river, which is referred to in an Indian article. Why should it be objected to?

Because no-one outside India understands it! Why is that so difficult to understand? For the same reason we don't give the distance to the Moon in cubits. For the same reason we don't speak of the dihydrogen oxide of the Ganges.

You can repeat yourself all you want, but that's not likely to convince anyone. If you want a discussion, go to WP:MOS and start one. — kwami (talk) 15:26, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

That is what links are for, to get around such problems. Please compare with the Xuanzang example. Even cars dont drive on the same side of the road everywhere on the earth, there are bound to be some fitting problems, that is why we have adapters, pages linking here and there, internal links, and the [[xxxx|yyyy]] facility available. Yogesh Khandke (talk) 15:33, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

The Xuanzang example is utterly irrelevant: there is no established name, and we use pinyin because WP convention is to use pinyin.

Let me try this again: if you want a discussion on using Indian-English names in Indian articles, go to the MOS and start a discussion on using Indian-English names in Indian articles. — kwami (talk) 15:39, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

Why not we discuss it first here let me understand you, if pinyin is considered standard for Chinese articles, why similar conventions are not considered for India? There is a certain standard/ convention/ practice of Romanisation of Indian names by Indians. Why the double standards?Yogesh Khandke (talk) 16:06, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

There are! We use "Ganges" instead of Ganga for the same reason we use "India" and "China" instead of Bharat and Zhongguo: it's English! Please, take this discussion somewhere else. You apparently will not understand, and I'm getting tired of hitting my head against a wall. — kwami (talk) 16:09, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

Don't be upset. Please do not reply if you do not wish. But look at Beijing which is a pinyin spelling, apparently China is used instead of the pinyin spelling Zhongguo, but for Beijing the pinyin spelling is used, to there are exceptions to this rule. Your comparision Bharat and India is incorrect as this is about Romanisation and what spellings are used for sounds, more accurate would be Poona x Pune, Cawnpore x Kanpur, Jubblepore x Jabalpur, you don't use Jubblepore neither should you use Ganges at least in an Indian article, on an Indian subject. Don't bother to reply. Perhaps I would understand your viewpoint, perhaps you would mine. In the mean while will Ganga (Ganges) do?Yogesh Khandke (talk) 16:30, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

If there's a reason to use Ganga, as when mentioning that the Ganga dynasty may be named after it or s.t. like that, then yes, fine. But otherwise we normally go by common English usage. Personally, I'd by fine with "Peking" too, but Beijing is now established English usage, not just in China, but everywhere. For example, in my dictionary, under "Peking" it says: See BEIJING. When that happens with Ganges and Ganga, then we'll use that too. Meanwhile, the international form of the name is "Ganges", and since we're an international encyclopedia, that's the form we should use. — kwami (talk) 16:38, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

See you on the (Ganges) Ganga talk pageYogesh Khandke (talk) 16:59, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

Sino-Tibetan

The issue is while there appears to be consensus that Tibetan, Burmese, Tangut, Newar etc. are related langauges the position of Sinitic is controversial. Matisoff says Sinitic and Tibeto-Burman are two branches of Sino-Tibetan. Van Driem rejects this and regards Sinitic as just another branch of Tibeto-Burman. Laurent Sagart, Guillaume Jacques and probably most people working in France agree in essence with van Driem, but prefer to call the family 'Sino-Tibetan' rather than Tibeto Burman. (The Chinese linguists for political reasons see Daic and Hmong-Mian as other branches along with Sinitic and TB in ST.) My objection is that the introductory summary should not give preference to any one of these views, and it was giving preference to Matisoff's. Tibetologist (talk) 06:38, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

"Sino-Tibetan" is historically just the French name of "Tibeto-Burman", so its use in French is not relevant to English naming. It was adopted into English specifically for a classification where Sinitic is a primary branch, with TB being restricted to a second branch of not-Sinitic. Van Driem, for example, uses TB as the name for the entire family exactly because he does not accept the ST theory of Sinitic as a primary branch. So, going at least by these sources, TB may include or not include Sinitic, depending on POV, but ST by definition includes TB as a primary division of it. The question then is not whether Sinitic is a primary branch of ST, but whether the ST theory is correct, rather like arguing whether Indo-Hittite or Niger-Kordofanian are correct rather than whether Hittite and Kordofanian are primary branches of those proposals. If a proposal is rejected, the solution IMO is to return to the name that predated the proposal: Indo-European, Niger-Congo, Tibeto-Burman. All the details of classification are handled at Tibeto-Burman for precisely this reason, with Sino-Tibetan covering that theory in particular. — kwami (talk) 06:45, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps, but French scholars use 'Sino-Tibetan' to refer to 'Tibeto-Burman' also when they write in English. This use of the word 'Sino-Tibetan' is just as much a part of the literature as the useage by Matisoff. I would be confortable with a wording such as "'Sino-Tibetan' predominantly refers a hypothesized language family of which Sinitic and Tibeto-Burman are primary members, but can secondarily be usedinterchangeably with 'Tibeto-Burman (q.v.)" or something like that. Tibetologist (talk) 21:18, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

Okay, I'll give it a shot. — kwami (talk) 08:06, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

Sources

The unsourced thing in your map is linguistic situation in Plav municipality. My map is made completely in accordance with data from listed sources, while your map does not provide a source that would claim that people in Plav are speakers of Bosnian. PANONIAN 11:10, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

Your map is improperly sourced because it claims that "Bosnian" and "Bosniak" are separate languages rather than alternate names allowed in the census. I'm at a loss how you could not understand that, but I won't waste my time with you any further. — kwami (talk) 11:13, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

It is you who could not understand that census does not "allow alternate names", but list only languages which are considered different by the Statistical office. You repeat yourself over and over but you fail to provide a source that say that people in Plav are speakers of Bosnian. PANONIAN 11:20, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

Hindi

Are you sure that you aren't edit warring in turn? This doesn't appear to me to be a clear case of vandalism. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 16:55, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

Who was accused of vandalism? I don't see what you're referring to.

The problem with that article is that "Hindi" has multiple meanings, and it would be hard to assign one of them primacy. There are already articles for the ausbausprache (Standard Hindi), the abstandsprache (Hindi-Urdu), and the dachsprache (Hindi languages), so promoting one of those topics as the subject of the Hindi article would merely turn it into a content fork and lead to its merger. At the least I think we should discuss its place among all the other articles before radically changing its content. — kwami (talk) 21:46, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

Sock in Linguistics

Hi kwamikagami,

Is it maybe time to call WP: Duck on the obvious supriyya sock currently disrupting Linguistics? I'm not getting involved this time in the discussion, and on-going edit war because I have better things to do with my time, but I've been watching from the sidelines and think that the evidence is mounting from the content of this user's edits, the games the user is playing, and the style of editing (e.g. making an edit, being reverted and then accusing the reverter of not following a non-existent consensus) all reveal the pattern we've seen with Supriyya and all her socks. Maunus tried to do a check user but all the old socks were stale so they wouldn't do it. Nevertheless, I think maybe WP: Duck is in order. Comhreir (talk) 16:10, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

I'd have to review to see if it's that obvious. But FS has been blocked for edit warring, and I'm willing to block 'em again if it continues. We could maybe try a 1RR limit on FS too. Let's see if 'e learns to cooperate after the block. — kwami (talk) 21:32, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, I could be wrong, but my suspicions have been mounting for a while. Best Comhreir (talk) 23:56, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

Mergings

Hi Kwami, I noticed you added a merge template back into Hyderabadi Urdu after I removed it. When I get bored I have a have a go at the Merge backlog. I have no interest one way or the other if they are merged and my knowledge on the topic is too limited to make an argument either way. However, I read through the discussion and there were four comments opposed to the merge and none supporting it. If you do think the articles should be merged (you seem pretty knowledgeable on languages) I was hoping you wouldn't mind putting a comment as to why under the discussion. That way if it stays there for three more years it will be easier to decide what to do for a lay person like myself. Cheers AIRcorn (talk) 07:49, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

Don't care that much myself. I didn't see your merge tag, and hadn't seen the comments on the talk page. I put it there because, once you remove the phrases (not what WP is generally about), there isn't much content to the article, and it could easily be covered at Dakhini. But I'll undo myself. — kwami (talk) 08:04, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

Tribes and peoples

Hi just noticed your various Entiat (tribe) -> Entiat tribe and the like. The problem with this is the dual meaning of "tribe" in American English, with one meaning referring to the governments of various reservations. In the Canadian model, with one or two exceptions I can think of (Tlowitsis Tribe, which is a government, vs Tlowitsis which is teh actual people)., the normal "dab" is "people", as in Nicola people or Okanagan people, though in many cases the endonym is used (Secwepemc, Shishalh for the people, without "people", while the normative linguistic/English usage is generally used for the language (e.g. Squamish language). Anyway, there's quite a contrast between the Entiat and, for example, the Colvilles. "Colville tribe" would tend to refer to the Confederated Tribes of the Colville Reservation, and NB there was no historical "Colville people" in the singular sense; the Colville Reservation contains the remnants of various peoples, including the core Okanagan group; a Canadian example would be Cowichan peoples (vs Cowichan Tribes, which is a government). A further issue of concern is that there remain un-split articles where governments are covered on the same article as ethno history (e.g. Muckleshoot Tribe, I think). The prevalence of "tribe" in US English to mean band organizations tends against it being used for ethnographic peoples, like teh Entiat or other peoples who do not have tribal organizations (currently or in the past) or who are part of larger confederacies such as those at Colville and Grand Ronde....consistency in these matters has long been wanting, I just wanted to point out the discrepancies/issues.....i.e. of using "tribe" vs "people", an d also note that many sources might play loosey-goosey with "Nation", capitalized or otherwise (capitalized in Canada tends to mean a government, though poeple will still use it for e.g. the Nlaka'pamux Nation, but taht as a term formally excludes most of the Nlaka'pamux (Thompson) population because of its political overtones. One article title that for a long time has been needing resolution is Mohawk nation, small-n....Mohawk people and Mohawk (tribe) currently, I think, redirect there...NB "Mohawk Nation" is a government.....Skookum1 (talk) 07:28, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Okay, I don't know the details of most of these, so I'm sure I'm failing to correct a lot of them. I'm attempting to remove the designation "tribe" (at least in the title, if not often in the text) from articles that are about ethnicities/nations rather than actually about tribes of ethnicities/nations. If I leave the designation "tribe" for an independent ethnic group, like the Entiat, it's an error.

I've been reading capitalized "Tribe" as a govt (it is in dozens of articles), and lc "tribe" as a sub-ethnic group, like the 12 tribes of Israel or the Germanic tribes.

Could you do me the favor of taking a look at my user contributions, and letting me know which I got wrong? A list of new/current location → desired location would be great. I just moved Mohawk people. — kwami (talk) 07:38, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Here are the articles I've moved (or in a few cases maybe just edited today):

Acquackanonk tribe

Ais people

Apalachicola people

Bannock people

Biloxi people

Bitterroot Salish tribe

Cahokia tribe

Catawba people

Cathlamet tribe

Chatot people

Chelan tribe

Cheraw people

Chetco people

Colville tribe

Coso people

Doeg tribe

Entiat tribe

Erie people

Eufaula people

Great Basin peoples

Hackensack tribe

Ibi tribe

Iowa people

Kato people

Kaw people

Kichai people

Mayaca people

Miami people

Mohawk people

Mono people

Natchitoches people

Navesink tribe

Nespelem tribe

Niantic people

Omaha people

Oneida people

Onondaga people

Oswegatchie people

Otoe people

Ouachita poeple

Palus tribe

Pend d'Oreilles tribe

Peoria tribe

Piscataway tribe

Raritan tribe

Roanoke tribe

Rumachenanck tribe

Sanpoil tribe

Schaghticoke tribe

Shakori people

Shasta people

Tamaroa tribe

Tappan tribe

Tula people

Tuscarora people

Ute people

Vermilion tribe

Waxhaw tribe

Yazoo tribe

Yuki people

Yurok people

Zia people

Here are the ones on my list I haven't moved yet (just adding a 'p' for 'people', '-' for 'keep', etc. would be enough - you don't need to spell it out)

Androscoggin tribe →

Cathlamet (tribe) →

Chesapeake (tribe) →

Chickahominy (tribe) →

Chicora tribe →

Clackamas (tribe) →

Congaree (tribe) →

Coos (tribe) →

Cowlitz (tribe) →

Duwamish (tribe) →

Esopus tribe →

History of the Duwamish tribe →

Klickitat (tribe) →

Monacan (tribe) →

Multnomah (tribe) →

Nisqually (tribe) →

Nooksack (tribe) →

Patuxet tribe →

Pee Dee (tribe) →

Pocomoke Indian Tribe →

Puyallup (tribe) →

Rappahannock Tribe →

Rogue River (tribe) →

Sahewamish (tribe) →

Sammamish (tribe) →

Santee tribe →

Shoalwater Bay Tribe →

Siletz (tribe) →

Skokomish (tribe) →

Snohomish (tribe) →

Snoqualmie (tribe) →

Spirit Lake Tribe →

Squaxin Island Tribe →

Stillaguamish (tribe) →

Swinomish (tribe) →

Tillamook (tribe) →

Timpanog tribe →

Umatilla (tribe) →

Umpqua (tribe) →

Walla Walla (tribe) →

Warm Springs (tribe) →

There are also a few "X tribe"s that I've skipped over w/o change that aren't on this list; I can post them as well if you like. These are all listed somewhere under Category:Native American tribes by state, so they don't address Canada etc., and maybe some US peoples that didn't get listed by state. I can easily expand the search if you like; if I have your judgement to go on, I could do it quickly. — kwami (talk) 07:47, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Here's another to consider. I recently created Lower Elwha Klallam Tribe. I opted for that name because that is what they call themselves--apparently both the people and the government. This whole topic of how best to title pages like this is tricky. So please change this page's name as well if it makes sense to. Pfly (talk) 15:50, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

I'd stay with what you did, because that's a proper name for the government, not the common name of a people. — kwami (talk) 15:54, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

Favour

Could you unlock Template:Countries of Asia? I wish to edit it per the argument I put forward here on the 19th which has received no response, which per WP:SILENCE I'm going to assume is consensus. Unfortunately, it was fully locked for some random reason two years ago, so I can't change it. If there's something else I should do now and you can't unlock per some policy, then it'd be could if you could just direct me to that. Thanks. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 14:35, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Done. Knocked down to 'semi'. — kwami (talk) 14:38, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Appreciated. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 14:41, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

More political balkan complications

Apparently the Republic Srpska considers Bosnian to be a dialect of the Croatian language. Also, Serb politicians have been using "Croatisms" (word of the day there). Funfunfun Chipmunkdavis (talk) 02:37, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, and "linguists" saying there should be a law against it—those are the loonies we're dealing with. Read on for more. — kwami (talk) 05:56, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

I'm confused, I thought that Srpska would want Bosnian to be a form of Serbian. Maybe they're trying to purify the "Serbian language"? Chipmunkdavis (talk) 06:39, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Purer = smaller, but then smaller = purer. Good enough for the Repubs in the US. (Besides, that makes more "thems" to scare people with. And Srpska is probably more concerned with entrenching its de facto borders than trying to claim additional territory, since even Serbia no longer backs them up.) — kwami (talk) 06:47, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

WP:INVOLVED on the topics of WP:ARBMAC area that need notification about ARBMAC

Hi, Kwamikagami. Has it occured to you that you're involved in the topics that are covered by WP:ARBMAC?
E.g,, here [9] you've deleted {{citation needed}} on the article Serbo-Croatian. Was that difficult to insert the inline citation? You know, the page and the line that speaks about that? Kwamikagami, we need sources and citations, not honorable scouts word.
E.g., this change on article Croatian language is not the seeking consensus or compromise. In some parts, you've inserted wrong information (that the official language of Croatia is Serbo-Croatian). It never was.
Also you don't know the problem of Church Slavonic and its importance for the development of Slavic languages [10]. Read Brozović's work, there's explanation there. If you like Britannica, why don't you read it? Britannica speaks explicitly and solely about Croatian Church Slavonic.
Kwamikagami, have you ever seen how many times does your name appears here [11] with the words "(Reverted edits by (your opponent)...." "(Undid revision .... by (your opponent)". Kwamikagami, you're not right by default.
E.g., here. Your edit here [12] on the article South Slavic languages is the example of rude vandalism. You deleted the whole referenced sections. You deleted the line about Kajkavian Ikavians, you deleted the info about New and Old Shtokavian accentuation. Your version is full of nonexisting terms (e.g., you deleted "East" from "East Herzegovina" - so which one is that "Herzegovina dialect"?; e.g. you invented "ikavian subdialect of Štokavian"...). Where were your sources for those deletions and where were sources for your inventions (WP:OR)?
E.g. the article [13] Differences between standard Bosnian, Croatian and Serbian. You have inserted your map [14] that's your personal POV. Serbian user (PANONIAN) gave you reference that proves you wrong. You gave objection "the second objection is falsification of census results because map is made to reflect census results.".
You've also been involved on the template {{South Slavic languages sidebar}} [15]. Bunch of reverts, unappropriate expressions in edit summaries [16], plus indefinite protection [17], false allegations of consensus [18] (since users disagreed on that, see history).
Further, you've heavily WP:INVOLVED yourself in the article Croatian grammar. You've protected the article on your version [19] indefinitely. You've been reverting the opponents' versions. See how many times your edits were [20] "reverted edits by (your opponent)", "undid revision by (your opponent). You've ignored the argumentation on the talkpage Talk:Croatian grammar.
For engaging in articles that fall under the ruling of WP:ARBMAC, user Knepferle posted following notification of WP:ARBMAC [21]. Only in your case, that diff would be somehow widened and it would sound like this:

• Please note that the article Croatian language, Serbo-Croatian language, Croatian grammar, South Slavic languages, Differences between standard Bosnian, Croatian and Serbian, {{South Slavic languages sidebar}} and other articles relating to the Balkans fall under the ruling of WP:ARBMAC. Note in particular Wikipedia:ARBMAC#Discretionary sanctions, which states

"Any uninvolved administrator may, on their own discretion, impose sanctions on any editor working in the area of conflict if that editor fails to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, the expected standards of behavior, or the normal editorial process. The sanctions imposed may include blocks of up to one year in length; bans from editing any page or set of pages within the area of conflict; restrictions on reverts; or any other measures which the imposing administrator believes are reasonably necessary to ensure the smooth functioning of the project. Prior to any sanctions being imposed, the editor in question shall be given a warning with a link to this decision."

Repeated blanket reversions, repeatedly and knowingly restoring material with large amounts of poor English and grammatical errors, and repeated introduction of material rejected by consensus all fall below the expected standards of behaviour at this project.

Admin Courcelles suggested me to file WP:AE. I'm not calling for revolution, arbitration, request for this/that... I've just wanted that you get the proper information, just as it has been hte case with any other involved user on those topics. Bye, Kubura (talk) 02:43, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Uh, do you have a point, or are you just trolling again? Sorry, I won't bite. — kwami (talk) 05:52, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

There's one born every minute

Were you aware of this? Note under the detailed description: "Source: Wikipedia". It even includes "free updates". --Taivo (talk) 20:19, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

Oh yeah. They're in violation of copyright, aren't they? I love how the titles are obviously done by machine: there doesn't appear to be any human effort in them whatsoever. I've always wondered how many people actually buy those things. — kwami (talk) 20:23, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

Zulu

Hi. Now that you've moved Zulu to Zulu people and moved the disambiguation page to Zulu, please don't forget to WP:FIXDABLINKS. At a minimum, it would have been an excellent idea to have changed the link at the top of the disambiguation page so that it pointed to the article you moved. --R'n'B (call me Russ) 10:20, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

I did. The minimum, at least. Sorry about the others.

BTW, a huge number of the links to Zulu are for the language, not the people, which is why the MOS advices the bare root being a dab page. — kwami (talk) 15:12, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

frr vs gv

I'm probably just not getting it - why is this robot forever changing [22] the ISO1 code for Manx Gaelic to the ISO2/3 code for North Frisian? Akerbeltz (talk) 10:25, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

They're separate changes. The Manx iw was redundant with gv:Gaelg. — kwami (talk) 15:08, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

Linguistic legitimacy

Is this covered anywhere else in Wikipedia besides the article on famous phrase "a language is a dialect ..."? There are some more general sources, e.g. [23] Tijfo098 (talk) 12:24, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

I'm not aware of a specific article, but it is discussed at varieties of Chinese and varieties of Arabic, among other places. There's currently a rather bizarre dispute going on as to whether Cantonese really has its own writing system.

The 'fun' one that's going on right now is Serbo-Croatian, where Serbian and Croatian aren't even distinct dialects, yet the 'dialects' of Croatian are arguably distinct languages. — kwami (talk) 13:14, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Chinguacousy Secondary School

Hey thats nice of you to lock Chinguacousy Secondary School to protect it from vandalism but the information is out of date. I'd like to make note that Russell Peters attended Chinguacousy in grades 9 & 10. Also the current Principal is Karen Hobbins, not Jan Courtin. Sources: school website & attendance at the institution.Shamandalie27 (talk) 21:54, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Your choice: I can unprotect it, leaving it open to vandalism, or you can wait three days until your account is considered established, and edit it regardless of it being protected. — kwami (talk) 03:45, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Alright I didn't know about the 3 day thing. 174.93.123.246 (talk) 03:47, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

IPA-bg

Dear Kwamikagami, I do not think that your redirect IPA-bg => IPA-mk is appropriate, both in principle and as particular application (e.g in Tryavna Peak). Apcbg (talk) 12:12, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

We were simply using IPA-mk for Bulgarian, and actually most Bulgarian pronunciations still use that template. It makes no difference to the reader, but if you want to make a dedicated IPA-bg template to do the same thing, knock yourself out. — kwami (talk) 12:35, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Done. Apcbg (talk) 13:35, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Consonant templates

I caught your message at the help desk and was just having a look when I saw you'd fixed it. But notice that your templates have placed the Alveolar approximant article into Category:Consonant templates, so something must be wrong with the template definitions. I think the "category" call needs to be hidden inside <noinclude> ... </noinclude> - see Help:Noinclude -- John of Reading (talk) 17:30, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Ah, thanks. I got that mixed up with the opposite of 'onlyinclude'. Will fix. — kwami (talk) 17:32, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

In case it becomes controversial later on, I approve of the prose templates you've recently made and incorporated into article space. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɛ̃ɾ̃ˡi]} 18:16, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. Shouldn't be a problem, I don't think. In some cases I'm adding text specific to a single article or not using a template at all; we can expand on that if some of the generalities aren't appropriate. (Please fix or let me know if I overlook something.) — kwami (talk) 18:19, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

I've removed our claim that nasals are 'central'. That may be an assumption to get them to fit into some binary model, but the statement is physically meaningless. Likewise, my /f/ and /v/ are lateral, not central, but they're often lumped in as 'central', so I removed the claim from labials as well. — kwami (talk) 19:39, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

{{IPAlink}} accepts unnamed 2nd parameter for "showsymbol="

All three templates now also take a 2nd unnamed parameter for "showsymbol=". I have documented it, without a preference, both inputs are accepted. Please drop a note when something strange appears. -DePiep (talk) 11:03, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Thanks! — kwami (talk) 15:00, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

re: Formatting IPA (Cape Verdean Creole)

Instead of going on in an edition war, I’ d rather discuss with you first.

You did remove the slashes, but it seems that it is an error in formatting. Another user has noticed that, and corrected it. I can understand the usage of the template, but what I don’t understand is why you are insistingly putting asterisks before the original words. Is it some rule defined here in Wikipedia?

Thanks

Ten Islands (talk) 11:19, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

It wasn't clear to me that those were the original words, only a comparison with what the creole is not. Asterisks denote two things: reconstructions, and non-existent forms. You could argue that the forms I added the asterisks to are either. Also, slashes would maintain that the forms are phonemic in creole, and I didn't know if they were. — kwami (talk) 15:07, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Sorry for the late answer. That’s what I suspected: I didn’t make usage of the asterisk to show reconstructions in the English article, but it incidentally appears in the Portuguese one — the word *djuêdju is the most probable reconstruction for the words duêdju (South), zuêdj’ (Northeast) and juêi’ (Northwest). I don’t know if you are aware but most of the forms listed, if they do not exist in a variant the exist in another. From now on, I’ll be more careful, and if I can’t find any source reporting the existence of a certain form, I’ll put an asterisk before it. See you. Ten Islands (talk) 19:10, 13 November 2010 (UTC)

Whatever you think is best. My main concern, actually, was in templating the IPA so that it formats correctly in IE. The other edits were incidental, and I don't know the language to make intelligent decisions about it. — kwami (talk) 19:26, 13 November 2010 (UTC)

Templates {{sibilant}} etc.

Hi. I'm looking at these and thinking they're prose templates, i.e., violations of WP:Template namespace. Your thoughts? --Pi zero (talk) 13:43, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

You mean the line "Templates should not masquerade as article content in the main article namespace; instead, place the text directly into the article." We have prose & content templates all over the place, like our consonant and vowel charts. AFAIK no-one pays much attention to that guideline, at least not in such a literal sense. (That template is transcluded in 9 articles, {{voiced}} in 63.) — kwami (talk) 15:00, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

If you check the related talk page, there is currently an ongoing discussion regarding a reword of that very line. We ought to chime in on the matter. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɛ̃ɾ̃ˡi]} 16:26, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Chimed. — kwami (talk) 17:05, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Folk etymology

I am having some difficulty with an editor who does not seem to understand or accept that Folk etymology is a well defined term in historical linguistics. Can you recommend to what discussion board I should take this matter if it becomes necessary? I will watch this space, you can respond to me here. Thanks. μηδείς (talk) 04:40, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for your comment on the article's talk page. Unfortunately, the editor involved has asserted that he regards Snopes as an ideal source for his notions, that unless I can find a reliable source that declares his conflations invalid I cannot reverse them, and he has even mistaken my attempt to clarify to him the academic nature of the concept Folk Etymology by translating the text of the German article for him as my providing a source, and has added that translation from the German article into the article itself with a challenge to me to provide the cite for the "reference".

I would like to get the input of some other editors who have some knowledge of linguistics, rather than trying to fight an edit war on my own. Can you recommend to me where I might ask for comments from editors with some knowledge of the subject? It would also help if I could get the article rated as a linguistics article. Can you provide any guidance on that? Thanks.μηδείς (talk) 16:28, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

You can try WP:Wikiproject Languages. I've just found a quote in the ELL2 however which appears to support his usage. — kwami (talk) 16:34, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. The problem is that sloppy and occasional usage by non-linguists doesn't justify treating the notion as on par with the linguistic concept. If necessary there should be separate articles - but he has not provided any sources sufficient to show even this. I would be happy to read the source you allude to. μηδείς (talk) 16:41, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

Qoph

Hi kwami. This edit introduced an error in the lead: the IPAblink template doesn't recognize [kˀ]. I'm not sure how to fix it myself, so I thought I'd let you know. --JorisvS (talk) 10:20, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

There are two 'spacing modifier' diacritics, U02E4 'small reversed glottal stop' kˤ and U02C1 'reversed glottal stop' kˁ. One is supported by WP, the other by Wiktionary. Let me check it out. (What a pain!) — kwami (talk) 10:23, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

The 'small' version, U02E4 (though they look the same size to me) is an addition from the 1989 IPA,[24] so would seem to be the proper one. That's the one we use on WP, and which you get from the IPA edit window, and the code listed it the IPA Handbook. How it differs from the other one, and why anyone would want to different encodings, is beyond me. They were both added with Unicode 1.1, and Unicode acknowledges they may be confused.[25][26] — kwami (talk) 10:54, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

{{IPAsound}}

Hi. I plan to improve the template {{IPAsound}} and related stuff. To me, it is a template -- wiki-technical stuff. Do you have any ideas or itches I could take care of? (IPA POV allowed) -DePiep (talk) 18:26, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

None that I can think of off-hand. Thanks! — kwami (talk) 18:28, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

-) =smile by keyboard here/but the semicolon behaves bad. :-) -DePiep (talk) 18:31, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

Edit warring

Greetings, K. You posted the following at my talkp-age: You have reached WP:3RR at Folk etymology. If you continue edit warring, you will be blocked. If you do not think you can get justice on the talk page, please pursue WP:RFC or other avenues of dispute resolution. — kwami (talk) 01:43, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Explain yourself. Itis you and Medeis who are edit warring (in his case canvassing as well) and this now constitutes harassment and hounding. Go through those ediuts and edit dates again. Andthen by all means take things up at WP:ANI. This conduct is really out of line. DavidOaks (talk) 01:52, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

This is just silly. Medeis asked for my opinion, and I gave it. He has the sources, you have junk, at least in what I looked at. And you are edit warring over that junk. — kwami (talk) 03:50, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Warning

You have reached WP:3RR at Charles Hapgood. Please stop edit warring and take it to Talk, or I will report you to WP:ANI. It is you who have violated WP:3RR and were aske dto go to discussion but instead you give me a warning and revert the edit. A discussion has been started-do not revert this edit again until a consensus has been reached.Thanos5150 (talk) 02:00, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I'll try to be more careful of your edit warring in the future, though I'm not quite sure how that works. — kwami (talk) 03:22, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Folk etymology

I've posted a note at WP:ANI. As you are engaged in the discussion, you may want to follow things there.DavidOaks (talk) 02:10, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

WP:AN3. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɛ̃ɾ̃ˡi]} 03:38, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Template talk:IPA-arz

Please, see Template talk:IPA-arz. --Mahmudmasri (talk) 04:34, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Charles Hapgood

I'd advise you not to edit this article today (of course you can use the talk page). I'll check the issue myself, but you are at 3RR I believe and I'm sure you don't want to go over that. I try never to go past 2. If you edit again today I wouldn't be surprised if you were blocked and given that Thanos has been blocked it would be reasonable if you were blocked. Please don't take offense at this, just try and make sure you don't even give the appearance of edit warring. Dougweller (talk) 07:59, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the warning. I wasn't planning on editing it again any time soon. — kwami (talk) 08:06, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Your recent edits to article Tetragrammaton

Unfortunately, there was no distinct letter J in the ancient Roman alphabet ("J" was at best a non-distinctive swash glyph variant of "I"), but your edits imply that there was... AnonMoos (talk) 11:47, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Ah, you're right. Silly me. That wasn't quite the fix I thought it was. — kwami (talk) 18:33, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

List of municipalities in Álava

User:Attilios unilaterally moved this page (see [27]), without debate or reference to the fact that's not the format for most provinces (also ignoring Gipuzkoa and Biscay in the same cat). I left a message on his page but he's not answering. Do you reckon you could move it back before grass grows on it? Akerbeltz (talk) 12:55, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

Sure thing. — kwami (talk) 13:48, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

Thanks! Akerbeltz (talk) 15:59, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

Labouchere

Re this, are you sure? My experience with French-looking British noble names is they might not be pronounced as they are in French. For all we know, this might be La-BOO-sher or some other curious Britishism (e.g. "Beauchamp" - "Beecham" in British).Skookum1 (talk) 19:08, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

No, I'm not sure. As for my change, note that English does not have coda /ɛr./. As for the stress, I have no idea, and so left that part unchanged. — kwami (talk) 19:12, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

I'll throw it by the UK Nobility WP/workgroup, someone there may know.Skookum1 (talk) 19:20, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Sardinian

Procedural question I guess. There's a creeping Movanification of the etymology aspects which keep trying to make out that Basque is a substratum language for Sardinina. Chief culprit are users who think that Michel Morvan's web dictionary is a reliable source [28] (the usual comparison of surface form sh*** and ignoring of historical phonology... But I'm definitely fighting a loosing battle there; a quick look on wikis in other languages makes me really feel like there's someone close to Morvan who's trying to push his career by inserting as many links to his name/dictionary on Wikipedia as possible (see edits by User:BANTASAN such as [29] or [30]. I'm not asking you to sort this but I'm unsure of what to do as it's only marginally my area of expertise and doesn't seem to fall into any obvious problem category. Part of the problem is that fringe stuff like Morvan is so easy to come up with and then it take a long time for someone to bother taking it apart in a publication, ultimately making Wikipedia a platform for their junk. Akerbeltz (talk) 13:09, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

If you think it's fringe, I'd take it up at WP:Fringe; otherwise the linguistics project and general RFC per RS's. But I'll keep an eye on it too. — kwami (talk) 19:39, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

IPA improvement at Tahash footnote #1

Thanks! I'm right now attempting an over-all polishing-up of the article Tahash (making notes first) and saw your recent IPA edit. I'm still so new to Wikipedia participating (about two weeks) that I didn't know about the template you used to such good effect. So thanks for pitching in there. --Michael Paul Heart (talk) 06:09, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

Sure. Added a couple more. There's also {{IPA-he}} specifically for Hebrew. — kwami (talk) 06:40, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

Tumbulgum

Hi Kwamikagami. As a favour, could you please take a look at the IPA rendering of the pronunciation of Tumbulgum. A folk pronunciation can be found at [31]—"proun. tum-BULgim not tumble-gum". Cheers, Mattinbgn (talk) 08:50, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

That looks good as far as I can tell, though I can't be sure what the respelling is supposed to mean. — kwami (talk) 08:52, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

3RR warning

You currently appear to be engaged in an edit war. Users who edit disruptively or refuse to collaborate with others may be blocked if they continue. In particular the three-revert rule states that making more than three reversions on a single page within a 24-hour period is almost always grounds for an immediate block. If you find yourself in an editing dispute, use the talk page to discuss controversial changes. Work towards wording and content that gains consensus among editors. If unsuccessful then do not edit war even if you believe you are right. Post a request for help at an appropriate noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases it may be appropriate to request temporary page protection. If edit warring continues, you may be blocked from editing without further notice.

• Revision as of 01:36, 15 November 2010
• Revision as of 05:53, 15 November 2010
• Revision as of 07:37, 15 November 2010

One more will be a violation of 3RR. I recommend against it. - Lisa (talk - contribs) 12:25, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

No, Lisa, you're engaged in vandalism, or the next thing to it. Reverting vandalism does not count toward 3RR. In any case, the entire passage was deleted as irrelevant, so there's nothing further to fight over. — kwami (talk) 17:56, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

ANI re DavidOaks

Hello. This message is being sent to inform you that there currently is a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you.

I am required to notify you that you were mentioned in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#Canvassing_and_edit_warring_by_User:DavidOaks_at_Folk_etymology

μηδείς (talk) 21:52, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

I am dismayed that no action is being taken at the ANI complaint. We now have a recruited editor arguing that there is academic bias against folkloristics just as might be expected given the targeted canvassing. It would seem highly inappropriate to recruit a dozen linguists. I am loath even to file any noticeboard requests. Can you suggest the proper thing to do to move the article discussion toward sources and away from rule by a recruited mob? And do you think perhaps my complaint against the canvasser was filed in the wrong place? μηδείς (talk) 06:52, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

I'm an admin, but I don't actually do much with it, and am not terribly familiar with policy. Remember, though, it's not the quantity of the argument that matters, but the quality. A hundred people screaming, but without evidence, lose out to one who quietly submits RS's. Or at least that's how it's supposed to work. IMO, you don't need to respond to every argument, point for point, just hold out for evidence. So far, the evidence seems to be on your side.

There are probably better ways to go about this, but a couple possibilities: RFC on merging the old material with the current article, or RFC on moving the article; a rejection of those would mean de facto support of the status quo. IMO we don't need to get that formal, though, at least not yet.

I guess this all seems pretty mild to me compared to the nut cases on the Croatian articles, screaming that we're denying Croats their human rights by acknowledging that Croatian is an ethnically based standard of the Serbo-Croatian (abstand) language. There are even articles in Croatian newspapers about how evil Wikipedia is, and rallying of all sorts on WP-hr, with several of them being blocked for disruption. — kwami (talk) 07:05, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

The original complex ANI against DavidOaks was archived without comment. I have reopened it here in regards only to his votestacking. μηδείς (talk) 21:38, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Upon refiling the complaint for canvassing one editor seemed to think I was accusing him of conspiring with DavidOaks and an admin assumed Oaks was notifying interested parties from all fields. They have reopened the complaint for comments here. An opinion on the nonsilliness of the issue there would be helpful. μηδείς (talk) 05:06, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

IPA at Christian

Hi! I realized I should have written you a note; your recent AWB edit to fix the IPA in Christian seems to have removed the IPA pronounciation entirely. I'm guessing that was not intentional, so I undid the edit, but figured I should let you know. Thanks!

-- Joren (talk) 20:15, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

No, that was intentional. Besides the word having multiple pronunciations, like /ˈkrɪʃtʃən/, and so requiring more space than that to do it justice, it's something that you can find in a dictionary. We only add pronunciations to words that the reader is unlikely to be able to find otherwise, or which are likely to cause confusion. See WP:DICT.

But thanks for letting me know--I can't track all the "fixes" (that was just the automatic edit summary), and a lot of people don't bother.

If you really think a transcription is warranted, I will try to fix it up a bit. — kwami (talk) 22:21, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

Oh, ok then. I'm not really in favor of the IPA being there, but I didn't know your edit had been intentional. Usually when I see "fix" I'm thinking a broken template or something, not removal, so I thought maybe it was a AWB issue. In a sense, I guess it was; there's no way to make it say "removing IPA per WP:DICT" or something so others know it's intentional? Anyway, I'll restore your version then. Nevermind, looks like you got to it already.

-- Joren (talk) 23:29, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, I could change the summary, but then I always forget to change it back, so I'd end up with a hundred IPA fixes summarized as 'removing IPA'. — kwami (talk) 23:33, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

AWB bug

This edit [32] did not fix any IPA. However, it broke one of the reference templates by deleting a pair of closing braces. — Carl (CBM · talk) 12:34, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

AWB's genfixes just remove dead link outside the citation. I guess is some custom script or editor's mistake. -- Magioladitis (talk) 12:42, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

Yes, sorry. AWB makes general 'fixes' when I edit, and they aren't always actually fixes. — kwami (talk) 20:01, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

Mel Tjeerdsma

Thanks for fixing the IPA on Mel Tjeerdsma. Jweiss11 (talk) 17:52, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

Sure thing. That is definitely a name that requires a pronunciation guide! — kwami (talk) 20:02, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

Lemur names & pronunciations in Malagasy

I appreciate you adding the pronunciations of lemur names in Malagasy to the various lemur articles. I'm not very skilled at using IPA, so it's a huge help! However, we need to be careful about the use of some of the names. The biggest problem comes from the word maky. In Malagasy, maky has multiple meanings. Technically, it's the most commonly used name in the south and west for the Ring-tailed Lemur. Around Isalo, I know it's called hira. Unfortunately, maky is also used by some to refer to lemurs in general... probably due to the Ring-tailed Lemur being the national icon. However, official Malagasy (as taught in Tana) dictates that the proper word for lemur is gìdro. Some sources also list the word for lemur as babakoto... even rajako and ankomba. In the case of babakoto, that is also the name for the Indri, while gìdro also refers to some true lemurs. So, as you can see, the word for lemur depends not only on the dialect, but also on what tourist-drawing lemur comes to mind first.

For now, I'm going to remove the change to the Lemur article because it may require an paragraph of explanation to properly cover. (We also can't use Wiki to push one name over another.) Also, don't take offense if I shift things around a bit or do other clean-up with your edits. Best, – VisionHolder « talk » 22:39, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for any help you can give. I don't know Malagasy, and was hoping that someone like you would come along and fix up any errors. I'm also adding IPA to some of the cities of Madagascar, as well as a few other animals; just check my 'user contributions'. Even if you're not skilled at the IPA, you could check that I haven't dropped vowels inappropriately, left vowels in that I should have dropped, wrote [ə] when there's 2ary stress and it should be [a], or placed the stress on the wrong syllable. As long as those things are correct, we should be good.

For lemur, I followed WP-mg, but I wouldn't be surprised that's not accurate, esp. if there is no Malagasy word that corresponds to the English.

If you want to discuss any changes, please do it here, as I don't have many of the articles on my watch list. — kwami (talk) 22:45, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

I will do my best to help with the IPA, per your request, but phonetics is very challenging for me. Fortunately, the pronunciations are pretty easy once you know the rules. What I would like to do is add a small, downloadable audio clip where I pronounce the various names... but I would want someone who knows Malagasy to verify before I upload them.

Unfortunately, WP-mg is a bit of a mess. When I went to Madagascar for 3 months, I was determined to learn the "proper" name for lemur (so that I could fix it), which resulted in interview after interview with Malagasy who couldn't agree. Some strongly insisted gìdro, while others shook their head and calmly stated that it was maky, though official Malagasy (Tana dialect) was babakoto. The answer, from what I've gathered, is that the Malagasy language as a single entity does not exist. The language is made up of many dialects, and you just have to adjust to the region your in or to the person with whom you are speaking. "Official Malagasy" is still taking shape. There's the Tana dialect, but there are also many concepts and objects that simply don't have words in Malagasy... so the people at the universities slowly create Malagasy words, sometimes using the French word or sometimes favoring their native dialect. (Sadly, work is slow since English and French are preferred languages.) In the case of lemurs, it's based on what they're familiar with seeing. Pondiky, for instance, is used to describe any kind of mouse lemur, regardless of the species, but only in a certain region. You simply can't differentiate the Gray-brown Mouse Lemur from the Gray Mouse Lemur in Malagasy in regions where they overlap. They're all pondiky. (Btw, the Gray Mouse Lemur articles has several names that could use IPA pronunciations, if you have time, though it's probably best to put it in the body, not the lead. It's in the Gray Mouse Lemur section.)

All of this talk about Malagasy names has convinced me that I need to write a short article about Malagasy lemur names. I can probably get it published in Lemur News. I've been wanting to discuss this issue in the articles, but there's nothing out there about it, and I didn't want to violate WP:Synth or WP:OR. Anyway, thanks again! – VisionHolder « talk » 23:20, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

It's very possible that Malagasy doesn't have a word for lemur, but rather different words for different lemurs, or groups of lemurs. Languages which evolve independently are highly unlikely to divide up species the same way, but if French is the prestige language and has a word 'lemur', then of course Malagasy "should" as well, thus the confusion. (In a language I work on, tortoises and flightless birds are grouped with mammals, and lizards with bugs--along the lines of "beasts" and "creepy-crawlies" rather than mammals, reptiles, and insects, which in any case derive from relatively modern taxonomy rather than European cultural traditions.)

If you could clarify some of the phonetic rules for me where I've made mistakes, I'd appreciate it. Devoicing of final vowels, for example: I've just discovered that in Sakalava final m, n, ŋ were dropped, whereas in Merina an a was added -- but specifically a voiceless [ḁ]. — kwami (talk) 23:27, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

The pronunciation rules are easy enough to fit on two pages of text, but not easy enough to describe here. And honestly, it would be best if you checked your own work. (I think you are right on most of it, but just looking at IPA gives me a headache. This is why I prefer audio clips.) Since I see that you have an email option enabled on your account, I'm going to photocopy two pages from a Malagasy grammar guide and send them to you. You'll need to reply to my initial email before I'll be able to send them. I hope that will be helpful for you. – VisionHolder « talk » 00:03, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Great! I've also dropped a line for the native speaker who added the IPA to the phrases section of the language article. — kwami (talk) 00:35, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

I just noticed one of your changes on the Indri article, and I'm not sure if I agree. You changed it to: [ˈiɳɖʐʲ]. Instead of "ʐ", shouldn't it be "[ r ]" (Alveolar trill)? But, again, this is why I'm not much help with IPA. Maybe you're right... – VisionHolder « talk » 01:13, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

I've looked all over for a good description of what <tr, dr, ndr> actually sound like, and can't find anything. But there are other Austronesian languages with claims of similar sounds, such as Fijian, and in such cases they are very rarely trilled--perhaps just in careful speech. The native speaker writing in our language article transcribes them all without a trill, so I've been following his lead. But that's an issue we can deal with once the key is set up. Once all the articles are linked, if we decide to change our conventions, it's easy enough to go through them all with AWB. — kwami (talk) 01:17, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Sounds good. You're the expert in this area, not I. – VisionHolder « talk » 01:21, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

re : Malagasy pronunciations

Hello Kwamikagami,

Most of your IPA transcription were good, but you made many errors in accentuation and in palatalization of consonants, you dropped when you shouldn't, but you made some errors in transcripting names and consonants, for example, you forgot to put deformations (palatal, labial, voiceless a) on some articles ([33], [34]) and you added unessential vowels (in Tsiroanomandidy) and/or inexistent consonant (as ʃ which don't exist at all (maybe you have confused this with the palatalized /s^j/) or tʃ where th nearest phoneme is tr (Malagasy pronunciation: [ʈʂ])). Now, most of them have been fixed by me.

I'm also using a different sign when noting voiceless a. According to you, the voiceless a is ə̥ but in the article about malagasy language, I have noted them /^a/ because the voiceless a is between the "open schwa" (ɐ) and the "real schwa", but it is voiceless and its pronunciations can change from one region to another (lightly, however) ; I followed your standards because I am not a linguist and I don't know if you are a linguist.

Best regards from France.

--Jagwar - (( talk )) 14:03, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Pronunciation of Murray, Utah

I've noticed that you have changed the pronunciation on the Murray, Utah article twice. I just wanted to let you know that Utah English pronounces Murray with the NURSE vowel, not the STRUT vowel. Ntsimp (talk) 06:03, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Ntsimp is correct. --Taivo (talk) 07:11, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Yes, but it's irrelevant. We are not specifying a local pronunciation, which in any case is predictable. — kwami (talk) 07:13, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

If we're dealing with a locale that is commonly known, such as New Orleans or Chicago, there is a point to a more "common" pronunciation, but when we're dealing with locales that are not known beyond an hour's drive away, then the local pronunciation should take precedence over a pronunciation imposed by someone from outside the area. Compare the local pronunciations of Hooper, Utah and Mantua, Utah. A "standard" pronunciation would be unrecognizable to a local. Compare this to the commonsense way that we treat the Ukrainian versus Russian names in Ukraine. The two cities that are encountered with any frequency in English are Kyiv and Odesa. With these cities, the most common English spellings are the Russian ones--Kiev and Odessa--so that's what we use in Wikipedia. All the other cities, that are rarely encountered in English, are respelled into Ukrainian where there is a difference--Dnipropetrovsk, Kharkiv, etc. The same practice should be followed for pronunciations. --Taivo (talk) 07:23, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

That would require changing how English pronunciations are given across the encyclopedia, and therefore some consensus on the matter. The existing convention is pretty clear: we give a transcription to guide the reader in pronouncing the name. If we're doing something else, such as indicating a specific dialect that the reader is not likely to use, then we need to inform the reader of that. Anyway, your Mantua and Hooper examples are irrelevant: those are in our general English transcription, and you don't need to have the local accent to make sense of them. — kwami (talk) 07:29, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

No, the pronunciation should indicate the pronunciation as used by those who live there. It's completely irrelevant how someone in New York City or London or Los Angeles or Chicago or Denver pronounces it. We are here to give accurate information, and if you are putting in false information, that's damaging the encyclopedia. ···日本穣^? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WikiProject Japan! 07:39, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

You should bring that up and get a consensus for change at the WP:MOS. Meanwhile, we continue with the existing consensus, which is to tell our readers how to pronounce the words and names they are looking up.

There's no problem with adding local dialect/accent, but we need to be clear that it's local dialect/accent, just as with Japanese place names we need to be clear whether the pronunciation we're giving is the Japanese or English one. The default, unless otherwise specified, is the general/diaphonemic English we have on our IPA key. — kwami (talk) 07:40, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

There is no need to change the MOS as it doesn't indicate that false information should be placed into articles. Sure, please the general pronunciation to begin with, but if someone who knows how it is actually pronounced comes along, and they can prove it, then we go with that. We are here to provide correct information, and insisting on doing otherwise (especially doing it while trying to hide behind the MOS, and trying to use it to keep blatantly and provably false information in an article) is not productive. ···日本穣^? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WikiProject Japan! 07:52, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

There is no "false information" except what you've written here. You might want to read the top of WP:IPA for English so that you know what you're talking about before you start making accusations of bad faith. — kwami (talk) 08:41, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

The pronunciation of Murray, Utah that is being placed there is a "transcription to guide the reader in pronouncing the name" and is in accordance with the transcriptions standards on IPA for English--there are no unusual symbols being employed whatsoever. The truth is that Murray, Utah is not pronounced the same as Murray River, Australia or any other Murrays, just as Mantua, Utah isn't pronounced the same as Mantua, Italy. There aren't any non-standard sounds or symbols being employed, so the function "to guide the reader in pronouncing the name" is exactly being followed in this case. --Taivo (talk) 12:32, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Are you saying that people from Murray, Utah, would pronounce the Murray River differently than their own town? The difference is simply due to a phonological merger, not an essential difference like Mantua, Utah, and Mantua, Italy. Presenting them as having different pronunciations when they're the same would be the misinformation.

The point of the IPA transcriptions is to give everyone a guide to the pronunciation, not just those who happen to speak the same dialect as the inhabitants of the town. For the latter, we need to inform the reader that the pronunciation may not work in their dialect. — kwami (talk) 12:38, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

The question will always be in the cases of locales that are not widely known and not subject to the dictates of common English usage, "Whose pronunciation is more important?"--that of the mythical speaker of the mythical non-dialectal English, or that of the locals. --Taivo (talk) 13:02, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Give whichever one you like. Just tell the reader. Unless otherwise stated, pronunciations are generic English. What's so difficult with supplying the reader with enough info to understand the transcription? How is the reader supposed to guess whether you've decided that the local or generic pronunciation is more important in any particular case? Perhaps we can add a list of IPA editors and their criteria to pop up with the mouse-over, and add the editor's signature to the transcription, so the reader can see that, for IPA by Taivo, towns with fewer than 50,000 inhabitants are transcribed in local dialect. — kwami (talk) 13:11, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

IPA for Malagasy

Great work on the IPA-mg and WP:IPA for Malagasy. You turned that around so quickly, it's wonderful. I'd love to give you a barnstar - I've heard people talk about that but I don't actually know how to do it. Let me see if I can figure it out! - Lemurbaby (talk) 11:28, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Formatting

I'm sure you've noticed it, but something got screwed up with your talk page's formatting a couple of sections ago. I looked at the coding around the point where it happened, but couldn't see anything. But I'm not an expert in wikicodes. --Taivo (talk) 13:04, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

I got it. Ucucha 13:12, 19 November 2010 (UTC)