Talk:Bombing of Dresden

Edit explanation

See previous discussion Talk:Bombing of Dresden in World War II/Archive 16#Edit explanation

Thousand-Bomber Raid Redirects Here

The Wikipedia entry for thousand-bomber raid redirects to this page. Why? The thousand-bomber raids as I understand it were in 1942. More info here: http://www.raf.mod.uk/bombercommand/thousands.html Nigenet (talk) 22:22, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Yes. That should probably be modified. JoshuaZ (talk) 20:14, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

Have removed that redirect now. That leaves an empty page though. I'm sure some experts will be along shortly to repopulate it with tasty information :-) Nigenet (talk) 11:08, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

Stop describing everyone who considers this act to be one of genocide to be "far right". This may shock some of you, but not everyone who cares about the lives and human rights of the German people are "far right". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.109.239.233 (talk) 08:37, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Dresden file

(copied in part from respective talk pages)

How can Offensive (military) overstate the case? This operation was not just one raid but took part between 13 February and 15 February 1945. It is a correct term and adds to the grammatical structure of the sentence. Could we discus this and see either to re-implement the word or compose an alternative? --BSTemple (talk) 13:15, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

I'm thinking of "offensive" in a narrower military sense. Two days worth of attacks, IMO, don't make for a bomber offensive. Berlin was under attack for weeks; that is an offensive. TREKphiler ^{any time you're ready, Uhura} 13:43, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

In the Offensive (military) article , it shows that a bomber offensive is sometimes also known as a strategic bombing offensive, and in the strategic bombing article here, you will see (sixth paragraph down) that the Bombing of Dresden in World War II is given. It is also mentioned in the Strategic bombing during World War II article. This brings us back to strategic bombing offensive and the correct use of Offensive (military). That is why it should be in the article. --BSTemple (talk) 14:25, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Dresden was part of a strategic bombing offensive; that doesn't make the individual attacks on given cities offensives in themselves, absent more extensive operations against the given city. Hence Berlin deserves "offensive", & (arguably) so does Essen. Ploesti, no. Schweinfurt, no. Dresden, no. TREKphiler ^{any time you're ready, Uhura} 14:34, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Use in Holocaust Denial arguments

I've added a short section about this as it's quite an important part of understanding why the casualty figures are often hugely exaggerated. I've tried to keep it brief and factual, but any improvements are welcome. EyeSerene^talk 14:07, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

You make very strange statements. It seems to me that many people on Wikipedia are not interested in scientific work, but in offending the massgraves of all those who were murdered. Please note that i have been researching and observing the Dresden Massacre over years and the official number is being lied down year by year by politicians. Also note that Germany is still under Allied occupation law, and it comes as a matter of logic that the Allies have little interest in revealing the full scale of their responsibility for this genocidal act (Quote Prof. de Zayas,. UN-Commission for Human Eights). If from a Phosphorous -Firestorm there is virtually no escape and over 300 000 refugees (non-Dresden residents) were in the centre of the firestorm and the few who escaped (mainly children and women) were mowed down by British and American "liberators" - which means that in truth a number much higher than 300 000 is likely because these 300 000 do not cmoprise a single Dresdner yet - how can the official number of 25 000 be "exaggerated"? Your claim is highly offensive. The opposite of what you say is true: If you really had a look at all numbers who were published, you would have noticed that politicians and lobbyists have minimize and belittled this atrocity year by year. We started with 250 000 deaths (Source: Brockhaus Encyclopedia, Wiesbaden 1953) and today our politicians simply dropped one "zero". Quite a convenient way to falsify history. Why is this huge controversy not thematized in the article? We all know that the official numbers try to whitewash, ridicule and belittle the massacre. Therefore, your statement that numbers were "exaggerated"is an insult to the survivors and to the commemoration of all those children and women who were brutally murdered by the RAF. I kindly ask you to refrain from making such offensive remarks in the future. PeterBln (talk) 05:24, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

No reasonable person denies the Holocaust or does not deeply feel sorry for the victims. But why not feel sympathy for the victims of the bombings,too? Useless and inhumane demonstrations of power.--Wurzeln und Flügel (talk) 18:59, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

Moving page from World War II to Second World War

• 23:22, 9 July 2010 SilkTork (moved Bombing of Dresden in World War II to Bombing of Dresden in the Second World War over redirect: Correct terminology for
• 00:49, 10 July 2010 Philip Baird Shearer (moved Bombing of Dresden in the Second World War to Bombing of Dresden in World War II over redirect: Revert move. Use WP:RM process to decide on moving such a controversial page)

I reverted the move to "Second World War" there are dozens of pages in the form "Bombing of city in World War II" if this move is to be made then it needs to go through the WP:RM process. -- PBS (talk) 00:56, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

The move followed existing guidelines - WP:TIES. This is a topic about a European event, and so would normally follow European terminology (Second World War is the usage outside of America). The American air force were involved, and that adds an extra dimension, however, as it was mainly a British operation against a German city, and the terms "Second World War" are already used in the article, it is an appropriate move and I wouldn't have thought would be contentious. A possibility is simply renaming it Bombing of Dresden - which is what the German article does. SilkTork *^YES! 07:25, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

BTW Against Dresden the USAAF launched more raids and more sorties than the RAF and it dropped close to double the tonnage of bombs. -- PBS (talk) 11:20, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

I am not sure why you think world War II is exclusively American, Take for example this page The National Archives The National Archives > Education > World War II which on the same page has "the Second World War" so it is clear to me at any rate that both expressions are used in Britain. A google search of:

• ["Second World War" site:gov.uk] About 171,000 results
• ["World War II" site:gov.uk] About 155,000 results

would appear to confirm that. -- PBS (talk) 11:03, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

If you click on some of the results for "World War II" site:gov.uk you'll find that the documents mainly use the term Second World War. Example - [1], [2], [3], [4], etc. I subscribe to various history journals, such as BBC History, and there are publications and organised events which use the term World War II - it is not a complete alien! - but the standard and preferred usage in Europe is for Second World War. SilkTork *^YES! 11:52, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

Second World War is the standard usage outside America, though you will, of course, find examples of WWII outside America, same as you will find examples of American spellings outside America. It's not a question of exclusivity - it's a question of standard usage, and maintaining appropriate cultural identity - it would be wrong to disregard or blank over the history and development of the term itself, so we need to be aware of WP:Systemic bias and the demographic of Wikipedia's editors, who are mainly young Americans possibly unaware that the term Second World War has a resonance for people in Europe that the term World War II does not have. Incidently, the book that you have linked to is also available as The Oxford Companion to the Second World War. In the main European books will use the title Second World War, though if the book is to be marketed in America as well, the publishers will tend to use World War II. I assert again that Wikipedia's guidelines and ethos is that where there is a strong cultural tie to a terminology then that is what should be used. That other stuff exists or it may require a bit of work to do something, should never prevent us from Doing The Right Thing. SilkTork *^YES! 11:37, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

If it is as you say then why do British Government web sites frequently use "World War II" (I linked above the the Imperial War Museum as an example) and why is it that the Monument to the Women of World War II next to the Cenotaph, and dedicated in 2005, says "World War II" on it and not "Second World War"? -- PBS (talk) 12:02, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

Interesting that one of the sources used in that article use Second World War in reporting it. As I have already said, usage of the term is not alien, and you will find examples here and there if you look hard enough - including this article on Wikipedia. My point is not that Second World War is the exclusive usage, but that it is the standard usage, that it is a usage that has resonance, and that it would be inappropriate to allow the term to be covered over and forgotten in a mistaken believe that it is more convenient to exclusively use American terminology because that terminology dominates media, publishing and the internet. I am personally quite comfortable with American terminology and usage in neutral articles, and will adjust dates to month day year and to American spelling if that is the predominent usage (or the other way if that is the predominent use). But where there may be some dissonance for the reader, then it seems to make sense to use terminology that is more appropriate. SilkTork *^YES! 18:05, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

There is also the rather elegant solution of simply calling it Bombing of Dresden, as there is actually no need to use "in WWII" at all. I do believe that the sources would be calling it "Bombing of Dresden" or "Destruction of Dresden" or "Fire-bombing of Dresden" or some such, though there may be more general sources which may be called "Bombing during WWII" or some such. But specific articles or books would not need to addend the period in which it occured, as that is understood - as with Atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. SilkTork *^YES! 17:43, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

There are two principle reasons for not doing so. The first is that Dresden was bombarded at other times -- as have most European continental cities -- and to make it clear what the scope of the article is a de-facto standard of "Blitz" and "in World War II" have been appended to [almost] all such articles.[5] So if you wish to lop off the appendage, then I think it is larger than just this article and should be put to a WP:RM. Your other names such as "Destruction of Dresden" suffers from the same problem as "Bombing of Dresden" (and is not such a common name) and "Fire-bombing of Dresden" (is also not as common) and would exclude all but the RAF raids from this article leading us with the need to recreate this article without the the RAF raids. -- PBS (talk) 23:40, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

BTW Against Dresden the USAAF launched more raids and more sorties than the RAF and it dropped close to double the tonnage of bombs. -- PBS (talk) 11:20, 10 July 2010 (UTC) - bullshit - the RAF could drop a heavier tonnage of bombs in a night than the USAAF could in a week. Dresden was hit so hard because of the initial RAF raid, the rest of the raids aren't even mentioned in Dresden's official records. Dresden was a nine-hour return flight and a B-17 could only carry 4,000lb to Berlin, which was around 300 miles closer (a six-hour flight), so how was it possible for them to carry the same load to a place much further away. Actual B-17 loads for Dresden IIRC were around 1,500-1,800lb, per-aircraft, whatever other figures are out their are absurd. However, if you have evidence that the USAAF stripped their aircraft of every pound in weight that they could, perhaps leaving half the crew behind, and removing other heavy 'unnecessary' equipment such as guns, then that might convince me that a B-17 could carry both a 4,000lb load AND the petrol required to reach Dresden AND make it back to the UK. Actual Lancaster loads to Dresden were around 7,000-8,000lb and THAT shows how much an aircraft's bomb load is reduced by the need to carry the additional fuel when greater distances are involved. In addition, if you read any of the excellent histories by Martin Middlebrook such as The Nuremberg Raid, The Battle of Hamburg and The Berlin Raids, he gives the actual loads carried by each individual aircraft involved and that will give a reader some idea of the possible loads that could be carried to various targets, both by the RAF, and by the USAAF. Trying to imply that the USAAF had anything but a minor role to play in Dresden's suffering amounts to as great a re-writing of history in the US's favour (or should that be against) as I have seen anywhere on Wikipedia. The fact is that after the initial RAF night raid(s) the daylight raids by the USAAF were, for the most part, hardly even noticed by the inhabitants, the smoke from the fires from the previous night raid made the sky so dark that any aircraft flying above could not be seen, and the explosions of the bombs dropped were mistaken by many Dresdeners as being due to delayed action bombs dropped the night before.

And BTW, the heaviest tonnage of bombs dropped anywhere in the world on one day (or rather, night) during WW II was 10,000 long tons by the RAF on Brunswick and Duisburg on the night of 14/15 October 1944 during Operation Hurricane.

Oh, and another thing, all contemporary RAF bomb tonnage figures were given in Long tons, all USAAF ones in Short tons, and a Long ton is 240lb heavier than a Short ton. And for fuel quantities, an Imperial gallon, which the RAF's aircraft used, was 20% greater than that which USAAF aircraft used, a US gallon. The reason why fuel was so important for the bombers flying from the UK was that before the introduction of the Clean Air Act of 1956 it was quite common in Winter for there to be dense fog covering much of England, where the bombers (both RAF and USAAF) were based, and it was not unusual for a returning bomber to find its home airfield fog-bound and closed. Therefore, a bomber might then find that it would have to fly sometimes as far north as Scotland or as far west as Cornwall or Wales, to find an alternative airfield to land on. This meant that a large fuel reserve was essential, otherwise the only course of action for the bomber crews was to point their aircraft out over the sea and then bale out. It was because of the fog problem that FIDO was devised. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.112.74.160 (talk) 18:29, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

Uh, the websited http://www.303rdbg.com/missions.html lists the 303rd's B-17s as having carried 5,000 lbs each to Dresden, not 1,500. American air historian Richard G. Davis, in "Bombing the European Axis Powers, A Historical Digest of the Combined Bomber Offensive 1939–1945" published by Air University Press and available here: http://aupress.maxwell.af.mil/Books/Davis_B99/Davis_B99.pdf lists 8th AF as having despatched 1,676 sorties to Dresden, against Bomber Command's 772. He also lists 8th AF as having dropped 4,421 tons on Dresden, against BC's 2,978. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 143.238.123.233 (talk) 09:52, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

Just to be clear, those figures are from the spreadsheets which Davis also provides. Last I looked, they could be ordered with the book here: http://aupress.maxwell.af.mil/bookinfo.asp?bid=94 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.217.232.51 (talk) 22:49, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the reply.

from the spreadsheets which Davis also provides

Well he's wrong. And so are his figures. It simply wouldn't have been possible for a B-17 to carry anywhere near 4,000lb as far as Dresden. Even the Lancaster loads were down to 7,000-8,000lb because of the heavy petrol load needed - normal load for a Lancaster to Berlin was 12,000lb. I'm not criticising you for using the figures, but they seem way-off to what was normal for other USAAF B-17 raids.

Probable figures for the '316 B-17 Flying Fortresses bombed Dresden, dropping 771 tons of bombs' are around 237 short tons, at 316 x 1,500 / 2000.

For a bomber the target distance defines the fuel required, which takes up part of the aircraft's useful load. The remaining part of the useful load is then taken up with the bombload - which is reduced the more fuel is carried. Greater distance to target = smaller bombload. These loads are governed by the aircraft's specified MTOW, which comprises the empty aircraft weight plus useful load that can be carried whilst still remaining manageable by the average pilot. For the B-17s to have carried the stated loads and the fuel required for that distance they would have either had to remove weight, such as crew members, guns etc., to bring the aircraft within the specified MTOW, or have taken-off grossly (~1.5-2 tons) overloaded. Whilst this may have been possible, the accident rate would have been much higher than normal as overloaded aircraft are more difficult to fly, and have a tendency to pile-up at the end of runways.

I'm just curious as to how they managed to carry the same bombload as to Berlin, over a greater distance. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.112.75.206 (talk) 11:21, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

Refer 303rd BG site noted above.

This website of transcribed 91st BG Mission Reports also shows loads of 18 x 250lbs or 12 x 500 lbs for Dresden:

http://www.91stbombgroup.com/Dailies/324th_dailies.pdf

This fellow's diary from the 398th BG gives 10x500lbs

http://www.398th.org/History/Diaries/Tracey/Diary_Tracey.html#Tracey_19450215

This scan of original hand-written notes from the April 17th mission to Dresden also says 12x500lbs.

http://www.398th.org/History/Diaries/Mackey/Diary_Mackey.html#anchor_19450417

It's unfortunate none of these flyers, or indeed Davis himself, had your level of aeronautical insight. You should publish. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.216.113.66 (talk) 23:56, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

See also

Vumba you reverted an edit I made. There is a template at the bottom of the article {{WWII city bombing}} which includes all the cities I removed. Also some of the links (such as Firebombing) appear in the rest of the article. Please read Wikipedia:See also

Links already integrated into the body of the text are generally not repeated in a "See also" section, and navigation boxes at the bottom of articles may substitute for many links (see the bottom of Pathology for example)

so please explain why you think that these links should be an exception to that rule. -- PBS (talk) 22:26, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

Die Solddaten

Hochman, Stanley (1984). McGraw-Hill encyclopedia of world drama: an international reference work in 5 volumes, (2 ed.). VNR AG. p. 498. ISBN 0070791694. {{cite book}}: Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (help) In the 1984 Hochman in what is usually seen as a reliable source published an article on "Hochhuth, Rolf (1931, )" In it with out any critical comment it says: "His second documentary Soldiers (Die Solddaten, 1967), has Churchill as a leading character and deals with the Allies' World War II air raid on Dresden, which took more lives than the bombing of Hiroshima. ...".

This is interesting for several reasons. The first is that Rolf Hochhuth according to his Wikipedia entry based his play on part on David Irving's figures and apparently the two are friends. This entry shows that many people in 1984, in good faith still believed figures derived from Irving's work were accurate. This play must have had a cultural influence (as it was in first in production in 1967, and received good reviews in London in 2004). -- PBS (talk) 09:47, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: No consensus to move. Ucucha 09:13, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

---

Bombing of Dresden in World War II → Bombing of Dresden — As per WP:PRECISION, article titles should be precise and avoid unnecessary disambiguation. The appending of "in World War II" or "in the Second World War" can lead to a dispute as to which is the more appropriate term - see discussion above, yet such an appendage is not needed as the topic is well known under the title "Bombing of Dresden", and that is the term most commonly used by reliable sources. We have no articles on any other bombing of Dresden, and are unlikely to. Relisted. Arbitrarily0 ^(talk) 19:57, 23 July 2010 (UTC) SilkTork *^YES! 08:42, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose The addition of in World War II defines the scope of the article. The bombardments during the Second World War were not the only bombardments of Dresden. For example there are many references to the Prussian bombardment of 1760, and without knowing a lot about Dresden's history I bet there were other cases of bombardments and revolutionary Dresden bombings. The current name does not restrict searches for the most common name and it does affectively focus the scope of the article. -- PBS (talk) 09:16, 16 July 2010 (UTC)
• Support There may well have been a Bombardment of Dresden; there may even have been a Bombing in Dresden, but there is, so far, no evidence that there has been another Bombing of Dresden. Skinsmoke (talk) 17:43, 17 July 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose De facto standard titling used in many other articles. Rmhermen (talk) 21:20, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
• Comment Actually, the de facto standard titling would be 1945 Dresden bombing. Skinsmoke (talk) 12:20, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

  Not possible because of the raid on 7 October 1944. -- PBS (talk) 03:46, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Reference Discrepency?

The article cites a 2010 study by the city of Dresden concerning the number of casualties of the attack. Three references are given, all three are dated 2008. References cite a study that occured two years after they were written? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.92.174.105 (talk • contribs)

An easy fix... I shifted two of the three references forward, to support the idea that earlier estimates are now considered too high. The 2010 study is left in place. Binksternet (talk) 21:38, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

False information in the article

After having reviewed the article frequent times, i note it is laden with errors and false statements again:

(...) the bombing raids over Dresden were not the most severe of World War II. However, they continue to be recognised as one of the worst examples of civilian suffering caused by strategic bombing.

This is not only false to claim the massacre of Dresden was NOT one of the worst examples of civilian suffering, but it is also an insult to the survivors of this massacre. Who wrote this offensive and false statement?

On February 13th 1945, a defenseless refugee city overcrowded with 250 000 - 500 000 Silesian refugees, mainly women and children, was deliberately attacked with a White Phosphorous at a time when the outcome of war had already been decided. Cars, uprooted trees and children and mothers were sucked into a raging Firestorm over an area of 12 square miles that wiped the whole city off the map. The massmurder of cilivians at Dresden is known to be one of the worst attacks in human history on a city, like e.g. Hiroshima 1945 or Operation_Gomorrha in Hamburg 1943.

So if this is not "one of the worst examples of civilian suffering" what is it?

I suggest speedy deletion of this offensive and false statement. 13:36, 31 August 2010 (UTC)PeterBln (talk)

What is untrue about the italicized statement? --THE FOUNDERS INTENT ^PRAISE _{GOOD WORKS} 16:18, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

You complaint make no sense whatsoever PeterBln. Please READ what is originally written, then adjust your outrage accordingly. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 152.152.95.1 (talk) 12:37, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

I'm honestly sick of the apologist rhetoric that people accept. Germany started the war, and conducted it in the most savage way imaginable. They were free to surrender at various points when it was utterly clear that the war was lost, but they didn't. The same goes for Japan regarding Hiroshima and Nagasaki. From the point of view of British and American bomber commands, any number of enemy civilians could die if only to save a single allied soldier's life. This is war. Only after the war do you hear people talking about "holding back." It's terrible, brutal, and wasteful, and the blame needs to be on those who started it.141.149.172.201 (talk) 09:22, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

Bravo, yes Dresden was indeed a "bad" example of bombing but it is incorrect to also try and rewrite history by making the populace of Dresden appear to suffer more than London, Rotterdam, Warsaw etc etc etc that were the direct indiscriminate bombing by German forces.I feel for the polulace of all these and other cities. Lets not make dresden a special case, it was not. Also, lets remember who started the war! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vumba (talk • contribs) 18:53, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

It says the bombing raids were not the most severe, not that they weren't severe. --THE FOUNDERS INTENT ^PRAISE 18:19, 28 December 2010 (UTC)