Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement: Difference between revisions
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== The Four Deuces == |
== The Four Deuces == |
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{{cot|Closed with no action at this time. - [[User talk:2over0|2/0]] <small>([[Special:Contributions/2over0|cont.]])</small> 00:47, 13 February 2011 (UTC)}} |
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=== Request concerning The Four Deuces === |
=== Request concerning The Four Deuces === |
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:::I agree, altough one might want to take into account The Four Deuces's rather belated expression of regret above. <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Sandstein|<font style="color:white;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Sandstein '''</font>]]</span></small> 10:00, 11 February 2011 (UTC) |
:::I agree, altough one might want to take into account The Four Deuces's rather belated expression of regret above. <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Sandstein|<font style="color:white;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Sandstein '''</font>]]</span></small> 10:00, 11 February 2011 (UTC) |
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*This enforcement request has been open more than a week, and the discussion was enlightening. TFD has made a statement of regret. It is not clear to me whether TFD will refrain from harsh criticism of perceived opponents in the future, but the data which has been gathered could serve as background for future sanctions if the problem continues. I suggest that the report be closed with no action at this time. [[User:EdJohnston|EdJohnston]] ([[User talk:EdJohnston|talk]]) 22:40, 11 February 2011 (UTC) |
*This enforcement request has been open more than a week, and the discussion was enlightening. TFD has made a statement of regret. It is not clear to me whether TFD will refrain from harsh criticism of perceived opponents in the future, but the data which has been gathered could serve as background for future sanctions if the problem continues. I suggest that the report be closed with no action at this time. [[User:EdJohnston|EdJohnston]] ([[User talk:EdJohnston|talk]]) 22:40, 11 February 2011 (UTC) |
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:: Per [https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement&diff=413212964&oldid=413200392 TFD's final comment] and the general staleness of this thread, I am closing this report without action. All parties are reminded to be especially mindful of the importance of [[WP:CIV|civility]] in heated discussions, and that [[WP:NOTBATTLEGROUND|Wikipedia is not a battleground]]. - [[User talk:2over0|2/0]] <small>([[Special:Contributions/2over0|cont.]])</small> 00:47, 13 February 2011 (UTC) |
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== Koakhtzvigad == |
== Koakhtzvigad == |
Revision as of 00:47, 13 February 2011
For appeals: create a new section and use the template {{Arbitration enforcement appeal}}
See also: Logged AE sanctions
Important information Please use this page only to:
For all other problems, including content disagreements or the enforcement of community-imposed sanctions, please use the other fora described in the dispute resolution process. To appeal Arbitration Committee decisions, please use the clarification and amendment noticeboard. Only autoconfirmed users may file enforcement requests here; requests filed by IPs or accounts less than four days old or with less than 10 edits will be removed. All users are welcome to comment on requests except where doing so would violate an active restriction (such as an extended-confirmed restriction). If you make an enforcement request or comment on a request, your own conduct may be examined as well, and you may be sanctioned for it. Enforcement requests and statements in response to them may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. (Word Count Tool) Statements must be made in separate sections. Non-compliant contributions may be removed or shortened by administrators. Disruptive contributions such as personal attacks, or groundless or vexatious complaints, may result in blocks or other sanctions. To make an enforcement request, click on the link above this box and supply all required information. Incomplete requests may be ignored. Requests reporting diffs older than one week may be declined as stale. To appeal a contentious topic restriction or other enforcement decision, please create a new section and use the template {{Arbitration enforcement appeal}}.
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MarshallBagramyan
MarshallBagramyan is restricted from making certain derogatory statements, as explained in the Result section. |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Request concerning MarshallBagramyan
MarshallBagramyan made the following excerpted contributions on 20 or 21 January 2011 to Talk:Caucasian Albania#WP:CHERRY:
As in the cases of Xebulon and Tuscumbia, whom I topic-banned for 3 and 6 months respectively for similar statements, MarshallBagramyan has disrupted the Wikipedia editing process by making these sweeping statements which are based on nationalist prejudice rather than on policy, in violation of Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Armenia-Azerbaijan 2#Users national background and neutrality: "Editors with a national background are encouraged to edit from a Neutral Point of View, presenting the point of view they have knowledge of through their experience and culture without aggressively pushing their particular nationalist point of view by emphasizing it or minimizing or excluding other points of view."
Warned by AGK in 2009; has since been subject to sanctions under this case.
Discussion concerning MarshallBagramyanStatement by MarshallBagramyanAlright, I think I now see the basic gist in this misunderstanding: nowhere in the statements above have I said that we should reject authors on an ethnic or national basis. What I took objection to, and what has apparently been misunderstood, were sources emanating specifically from Baku and the country of Azerbaijan, since it is essentially ruled by a repressive regime which regularly jails dissidents for criticizing the administration or for voicing unpopular opinions and because many of the sources are published under close government sponsorship. That does not even come anywhere close to saying that all scholars who happen to have Azeri heritage should now be disqualified from consideration as a reliable source. Such a statement would personally go against my own editing activities, since I have greatly profited and made use of valuable sources written by Azeri authors relating to the history of medieval and early modern Iran and Ottoman Turkey and the article on the Nagorno-Karabakh War. In my statements, I have been extremely careful in distinguishing the people from the entity: by Azeri I refer to ethnicity and by Azerbaijan I refer to works published in the current-day Republic of Azerbaijan. Nor, as it is alleged, have I acted upon making my arguments on the basis of "nationalist prejudice rather than on policy." They have, instead, been predicated entirely on on what scholars and other individuals in the field have stated. Seraphimblade makes an excellent point below in saying that sources that are excluded must be given adequate reasoning. To facilitate in the attempt to clear up this understanding, therefore, I have quoted several authors below regarding the unreliability of such sources and I ask that everyone fully read their statements. Robert Hewsen, a historian from Rowan College and the acknowledged authority in this field, wrote in his book Armenia: A Historical Atlas, published by no less a respectable a publisher as Chicago University Press:
The British journalist Thomas de Waal documented the systematic attempt to remove Armenians from history in his influential 2003 work on the Armenian-Azerbaijani conflict:
Professor Victor Shnirelman, a senior researcher of the Institute of Ethnology and Anthropology of the Russian Academy of Sciences, authored a monograph titled The Value of the Past: Myths, Identity, and Politics in Transcaucasia in 2004. While his book is too extensive to quote from, he took objection to the manner in which historiography progressed in modern Azerbaijan, as can be gleaned from the following chapter titles: "The birth of the Azeri nation", "The search for historical concepts, and major politics", "The Median temptation and Soviet Patriotism", "Between Media and Caucasian Albania and the Turkic World: Thirst for a new view", "Revisionists: the Pan-Turkic assault", "The struggle between conservatives and revisionists and a school education". There are at least half a dozen other sources which I can quote, all of which speak about how political ideology has compromised the academic reputation of scholars working in Azerbaijan, regardless of their ethnicity. But what everyone above is saying or alluding to is that sources which intentionally edit or remove people from the pages of historical sources, which reconsecrate historical monuments and give them new identities, or distort the data that is available should be avoided as best possible. I have therefore been not so much airing my views but merely repeating what others have already stated. My chief objection was to sources originating from Azerbaijan, not sources whose authors are Azeri. To the contrary, and as I emphasized several times to Tuscumbia during our long exchange, what mattered to us was not whether a scholar was Armenian, Azeri, or Martian, but the "breadth of their scope and their acknowledged expertise" in the area. And even then, my objection stemmed from the politically repressive climate that exists Azerbaijan, not its nationality. This has turned out to be a misunderstanding on massive proportions and I don't think I can emphasize it enough that my arguments were never predicated on the basis of excluding sources on the ethnic or national heritage of someone and I ask that the administrators to please ask me to clarify anything which might seem unclear since this is, after all, a very difficult and complex topic. --Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 02:55, 29 January 2011 (UTC)
Comments by others about the request concerning MarshallBagramyanSandstein, I was unable to locate what is it exactly about the lines that you have selected from his contributions that you think justifies imposing sanctions upon MarshallBagramyan. How exactly do they violate the established remedies concerning the topic area? Are you recommending this topic ban simply because this user was not topic banned initially when the other two were "as a matter of fairness"? Am I to understand that the very participation in similar exchanges irrespective of user conduct or substance of responses will now warrant a topic ban?-- Ευπάτωρ Talk!! 23:14, 28 January 2011 (UTC)
Comment by Volunteer Marek Having looked through this I also don't really see any justification for any kind of sanction, except a warning to be careful in statements. There does not appear to be any kind of a "peg" that you can hang a topic ban or other editing restriction on. Basically, I agree with Seraphimblade below. Some of the wording of the comments is less than satisfactory. But these do not appear to be motivated by either WP:BATTLE or bad faith, but rather are simply a result of an editor commenting quickly and off the top of their head in midst off a heated discussion. If you edit in a controversial topic area (and we do need editors willing to do so) at some point or other you're going to be unclear, imprecise and maybe even a little frustrated and this is in fact just a natural part of how human interaction usually takes place. There's no evidence here of any kind of wrong doing. A reminder to be more careful (which we - especially content editors, since non-content editors rarely ever actually deal with difficult content issues - could all use sometimes) is sufficient. Volunteer Marek 23:54, 29 January 2011 (UTC) I got to add that Sandstein's characterization of MB's second statement [5] with I am much less impressed with MarshallBagramyan's second comment, which does not address his conduct and instead appears to argue at length why disagreeing with him in the content dispute (which AE does not care about) is equivalent to denying the Holocaust. seems to be on the whole quite inaccurate. The 2nd statement consists of two (fairly long) paragraphs and in them MB essentially reiterates the distinction between Azeri scholars and Azeri-government-produced sources which is the locus of confusion here. In fact he explicitly states that a similar distinction could apply to Armenia and Turkey in the early 1990's. This is just an elaboration on a previous point. At the end of these couple paragraphs, the statement does stray into "content disputes" but this is really just a reflection of the fact that as much as you try, at the end of the day, you can't clearly separate out "behavior disputes" from the "content disputes" that underlie them (and his point is valid - is Holocaust denial on Holocaust related articles a content or a behavioral dispute? - though it is a bit of a Godwin Law violation). I would also encourage admins involved in this discussion to try and put themselves in the shoes of someone who has just all of sudden been brought to AE and for whom severe sanctions have been proposed - it's a stressful situation and honestly, it's often quite hard to know how to properly react, which issues to address and which topics are relevant (that's actually why in real life we do have lawyers). Nothing here. Volunteer Marek 00:14, 30 January 2011 (UTC)
Check out MarshallBagramyan's recent edit here. For Nth time, removing the map from Azerbaijan Democratic Republic page, while arguing in favor of map at Democratic_Republic_of_Armenia. And this and numerous other POV edits by MarshallBagramyan fit well with his eloquently expressed: "I just believe that Armenian authors have less reason to lie or distort reality, since much of what they say is backed by a multitude of sources." Well, of course, he does. He is Armenian contributor who demonstrated inability to detach his personal biases from his contributions, thus resulting in non-neutral edits. Atabəy (talk) 00:23, 30 January 2011 (UTC)
Vandorenfm, I only sought to demonstrate that MarshallBagramyan continues to revert war on other pages with the same POV position, while his case goes on in AE. I don't see why MarshallBagramyan saying "I just believe that Armenian authors have less reason to lie or distort reality... almost all Azerbaijani sources because they have an invariable vested interest to distort and misrepresent" is not considered racist, while my comment that MarshallBagramyan does represent Armenian POV is? Can you explain me the difference? If this is about sources, again I would like to find out based on which sources MarshallBagramyan removes one map for Nth time, while doing exactly the opposite about the same area here? Thank you. Atabəy (talk) 15:19, 1 February 2011 (UTC)
Comment by Fedayee It is bizarre to find that an analogy is being made between MarshallBagramyan's statments and Tuscumbia's. I must've missed something. The mentioned Armenian scholars are only Armenian scholars by their ethnicity, many were used by the two sides here before. Hewsen whom Tuscumbia discredited because of a possible partial Armenian background has been used by the other side several times in Wikipedia. He is recognized as an internationally reknown scholar who is by all means Western. So Tuscumbia's comment in that light could have only been interpreted as saying that because someone has Armenian blood flowing in his veins, he can't be credible. Disturbing. That's quite different than MarshallBagramyan's comments when considering that those scholars (which he named) of Azerbaijan have been systematically criticized for having erased Armenians and Armenia from the face of history. The position is backed by several sources that the dictorial regime in Azerbaijan has systematically financed and trained their scholars to follow that line of reasoning. How can a user be topic banned for half a year for such a comment? Also, not that Atabek is answering again in the results section when he most probably knows that the said place is actually the administrator's section... he's been here for years and did it even after his comment was removed. Also, his language was disturbing to say the least... directly accusing an editor of having ulterior motives fueled by that editor's ethnicity. He had his chances here, he was one hair away from being banned in AA, he's received several topic bans, he was engaged in mailing lists to disturb Wikipedia and now to top it off, he comes here and makes that infuriating comment. If anything, he should be topic banned for that much... it is long overdue. Besides, what is the relevence of the freedom of press of Armenia when most internationally known Armenian scholars live abroad and therefore not affected by the levels of freedom of press in Armenia. That's pretty much all I had to say about this and will be adding no further comments about this issue. Thank you. - Fedayee (talk) 02:19, 2 February 2011 (UTC)
Result concerning MarshallBagramyan
Reviewing the discussion among uninvolved editors above, Volunteer Marek and NuclearWarfare believe that the conduct at issue is not sanctionable, an assessment with which I disagree, while Seraphimblade agrees that sanctions are called for, but not necessarily a topic ban. Hodja Nasreddin (signing as Biophys) does not support but also does not explicitly |
The Four Deuces
Request concerning The Four Deuces
It was suggested previously [12] it would be highly likely he will continue to characterise anyone he disagrees with as harbouring pro-fascist or extreme right wing sympathies. This is unacceptable that he continues to do so. --Martin (talk) 02:57, 1 February 2011 (UTC)
Discussion concerning The Four DeucesStatement by The Four DeucesMy comments were about the POV of the quote that Martintg presented rather than his personal point of view. The far right in the former Communist states seeks to re-write history in order to villianize ethnic minorities within their borders, in particular Russians, whom they believe are within their countries illegally. The connection of this POV with the far right is well-documented. Not only do they argue that the annexation of the Baltic states was illegal, which is a mainstream view, but that (as Martintg presented) " - since it remained illegal - did not create any extra rights to the annexing power, the USSR". The implication is that Russian and other ethnic minorities are illegally in the Baltic states.
Reply to Martintg's additional comments: Martin, just because you have found a source that calls the "double genocide" theory "comparative trivialization" (not btw "holocaust denial") does not mean that I called it that. The double genocide theory is merely the belief that the crimes of Stalin and the Nazis had equivalency. Here is a link to the discussion of the topic in the source your provided. It says, "Central to the notion of comparative trivialization is the so-called double genocide or symmetry approach to the Holocaust in post-Communist East Central Europe". The term "double genocide" does not imply comparative trivialization, although you have found a source attacking the double genocide theory as comparative trivialization. I notice that you googled "double genocide"+"holocaust denial". TFD (talk) 13:04, 1 February 2011 (UTC) Reply to Biophys - the article Right-wing politics was protected because a dynamic IP was edit-warring. Several of the IPs were blocked for sockpuppetry, but there were approximately forty numbers that the IP used. This article and Roger Scruton were semi-protected. When the IP continued to post on the talk page, the talk page was semi-protected as well. An editor however posted comments by the blocked account. Here is an example of what was re-posted: "What a truly nasty woman." (referring to SlimVirgin) "This may make you uncomfortable, and you would prefer that it was not the case, but if the aim is truth rather than deception, ignorance is no defence". All of that can be found in the links you provided. When you linked to your reply to me you should have included my comments. "But the sources used include the [[Mitrokhin Archive]], The Black Book of Communism, and The Dictators: Hitler's Germany and Stalin's Russia, all of which are controversial books published outside the academic mainstream (although the Black Book was later republished by the Harvard University Press). A lot of conflict could be avoided if there were tighter restrictions on sources used, as for example in [WP:MEDRS]]." TFD (talk) 05:40, 10 February 2011 (UTC)
Comments by others about the request concerning The Four DeucesComment by Sander SädeEditors have been blocked for far, far less than the direct personal attack by TFD. Of course he commented directly on Martin and not "about the POV of the quote that Martintg presented", it is completely clear from the diff ([19]). This is not the first time he has directed comments on the editor and not content - in fact, this is his usual modus operandi. I would recommend an indefinite ban from all Eastern Europe and politics-related topics, which could be lifted only by appeal after six months.
Furthermore - as I just realized, I fell into his trap. The quotes he brings here are completely irrelevant. This is a case about direct personal attack, not "right-wing extremism", "rewriting history" or something else. This is a case where The Four Deuces smeared an another editor, something which he has often done and he sees nothing wrong in portraying his fellow editors as fascists or "ethnic nationalists". No quotes from anywhere will change that fact. Please don't be misled by his intentionally inflammatory comment, like I was.
Off-topic, but as a food of thought. Union of Pro Patria and Res Publica (IRL) is considered to be the rightmost major Estonian party. We have elections coming in March. Two main election slogans for the IRL are free university education (something that already exists in Estonia) and mothers getting a pension increase in relation to the number of children. Their views are quite a bit left of U.S. Democratic Party. Estonia also has an actual nationalist party, Estonian Independence Party. In 2007 elections they got 0.2% of votes, in 2011 they will probably get even less than that. Right-wing nationalism simply has no support in Estonia. As for me, I consider myself to be somewhere between the center and a Social Democrat, although Social Democratic Party (Estonia) probably won't get my vote this time, as their behavior has been a pretty spineless lately.
Comment by Biophys
Comment by BorisGLanguage used by TFD is very troubling and unacceptable. In the countries that have been oppressed for many decades the issue is very sensitive and requires care. I also disagree with the substance of his comment (including his comment on this thread) but this is not the point here. - BorisG (talk) 23:22, 1 February 2011 (UTC) comment by darkstar1stextremist ethnic nationalist is a harsh way to address an editor. Darkstar1st (talk) 21:45, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
Comment by CollectLooking over the comments in question makes the situation all too clear as to TFD's attitude towards civility towards others. Collect (talk) 00:41, 2 February 2011 (UTC) Result concerning The Four Deuces
While TFD has made intemperate comments in the past, I do not find anything in the evidence presented or their recent contributions that would rise to the level of requiring a sanction here. The furthest I might go would be to point out that in topic areas where disputes often become heated (including anything covered by our several ethnic disputes discretionary sanctions), it might be best practice to avoid any comment that might be construed as reflecting on an editor rather than an edit, and that sources may be best rebutted with better sources, not personal analysis (howsoever obvious it may be). Recommend close without action. - 2/0 (cont.) 06:13, 1 February 2011 (UTC)
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Koakhtzvigad
Topic-banned for two weeks. |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Request concerning Koakhtzvigad
Talk:African-American – Jewish relations
Talk:Israel and the apartheid analogy
Discussion concerning KoakhtzvigadStatement by Koakhtzvigad
Talk:Israel and the apartheid analogy
Talk:African-American – Jewish relations
Comments on intended block by Sandstein
Comments by others about the request concerning KoakhtzvigadComment by Sean.hoyland - Koakhtzvigad's B'Tselem related statement "The information was eventually included in the relevant section [55] by consensus." is not an accurate description. What happened is that I removed all of the information that was OR and left the information that wasn't OR in this edit. It was this action that was preserved by consensus if you want to call it that i.e. the number of staff was retained based on the source cited. It's a small point but I don't like to miss an opportunity to be pedantic. Sean.hoyland - talk 11:14, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
Comment by BorisG - Koakhtzvigad, I in my opinion, your statement is way too long. Admins have to review many such cases and they will be irritated by the need to read such a long statement. Please try to be concise. - BorisG (talk) 06:15, 5 February 2011 (UTC)
Result concerning Koakhtzvigad
After reviewing the request, I find most of it not actionable. The edits to Talk:African-American – Jewish relations do not seem to violate any relevant policy. Disagreeing with consensus (if any) is not forbidden. With respect to Talk:Israel and the apartheid analogy, merely saying "Just look at the whole mess of a page" is not useful for evaluating how Koakhtzvigad is supposed to have violated any applicable policy. Evidence in AE requests should be as specific as possible and be supported by relevant diffs. The sweeping allegations made by Malik Shabazz, "Koakhtzvigad has a tendency to push his POV in articles related to Israel and Palestine, and he frequently filibusters, Wikilawyers, and exhibits IDHT behavior on the related Talk pages", are also useless here. If such allegations are not accompanied by convincing evidence in the form of diffs, they are disregarded at AE, and are also disruptive in and of themselves, see Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/ChildofMidnight#Casting aspersions. I am consequently warning Malik Shabazz not to make sweeping allegations of misconduct against others in the Israel/Palestine topic area. That said, the edits to B'Tselem cited in the request are indeed problematic. By adding the text "... including 11 ethnic Arab Field Researchers [56]" to the article, Koakhtzvigad has misrepresented the source he cited, [57], because that source does not contain any information about the ethnicity of the persons concerned, and has also engaged in original research by claiming in the edit summary ([58]) that he can tell the ethnicity of the researchers by their names. In addition, the diffs cited in the request show that Koakhtzvigad has edit-warred to reintroduce these errors into the article. Finally, these edits can be interpreted as implicitly advancing the opinion that the ethnicity (rather than the nationality, education, professional credentials, etc.) of the persons working for the organization is relevant for an encyclopedic description of the organization. This arguably violates the neutrality principle by describing the organization from a racialist rather than a neutral point of view. Koakhtzvigad's statement does not recognize these problems. While this is (based on the usable evidence presented here) an isolated incident, misrepresenting sources and violating WP:NPOV, WP:NOR and WP:EW in this topic area is a serious matter. Without administrator objection, therefore, I intend to ban Koakhtzvigad from editing this topic area for two weeks. Sandstein 23:15, 5 February 2011 (UTC)
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Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Twilight Chill
Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found in this 2010 ArbCom motion. According to that motion, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action.
To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).
- Appealing user
- Twilight Chill (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) – Twilightchill t 00:38, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
- Sanction being appealed
- 1-year topic ban from the Armenia-Azerbaijan topic field, imposed at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement#Twilight Chill
- Administrator imposing the sanction
- Sandstein (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
- Notification of that administrator
- [59]
Statement by Twilight Chill
In the light of the request's result and the sanction, imposed on me, I would like to clarify my editing at Caucasian Albania (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views), which became the page in question. On January 31 a single-purpose account of Gorzaim (talk · contribs) added without discussion a lengthy controversial section titled "Caucasian Albania and Azerbaijani historical revisionism", an obvious violation of WP:NPOV. Although I indicated that problem in the edit summary when reverting, the contested section has been repeatedly restored with groundless edit summaries, particularly by another single-purpose account, Vandorenfm. Aside from WP:ICANTHEARYOU, I believe that such actions fall under provocation as described in Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Armenia-Azerbaijan 2#Provocation (particularly, given the wording used in the aforementioned contested section, added by Gorzaim). As per WP:EW, "reverting to enforce certain overriding policies is not considered edit warring". I consider WP:NPOV, which is one of WP's three core content policies, to be among those overriding policies. Within that ramification and given that there was no 3RR violation from my side (which could be verified through Caucasian Albania page history), I believe that the sanction I was subjected to could be lifted or modified. Twilightchill t 00:45, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
Statement by Sandstein
TwilightChill (previously editing as Brandmeister (talk · contribs)) argues that because the content he edit-warred to remove, [60], violated WP:NPOV, his repeated removal of it was not edit-warring. I disagree. Insufficient neutrality is not among the limited exceptions, WP:EW#3RR exemptions, to the rule prohibiting edit warring. This is because reasonable people can disagree about what is neutral and what is not. Therefore, edit-warring is not an acceptable mode of resolving disputes about neutrality. This is particularly so in the instant case. While the content at issue may well be non-neutral (I know nothing about the subject matter and can't evaluate that), it is not non-neutral on its face, as would be a text in the vein of "All [Armenis/Azerbaijanis] are liars and manipulate history to suit their nefarious purposes." This makes it even less appropriate to resolve a dispute about its inclusion by edit-warring rather than by way of discussion, especially in a topic area and by a user subject to discretionary sanctions. I therefore recommend that this appeal be declined. Sandstein 07:20, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
- I do agree that "edit-warring is not an acceptable mode of resolving disputes about neutrality." However, I respectfully disagree with seeing things in the context that the chapter in question is "non-neutral on its face, as would be a text in the vein of "All [Armenis/Azerbaijanis] are liars and manipulate history to suit their nefarious purposes." Azerbaijani revisionism regarding Caucasian Albania is a well established academic subject, as seen when viewing the sources that are brought to support the arguments made. The text is NPOV (although needs some extra work to make it more so), as there are no any neutral sources which would praise/support Azerbaijani efforts to manipulate history on this subject or disprove claims made. It is not surprising that Twilight Chill had to resort to naked edit war - he or anyone else would have no counter-arguments, because there are none. Manipulation of history is a state sponsored affair in Azerbaijan which is enforced by the government. Historians who do not comply risk ruining their careers. See the work of Antoon de Baets called "Censorship of historical thought: a world guide," 1945—2000. Greenwood Publishing Group, 2002. de Baets writes: «In December 1994 historian Movsum Aliyev was arrested for insulting President Heidar Aliyev in a September 1993 article he wrote for the newspaper Azadliq, entitled "The Answer to the Falsifiers of History." He was held in an overcrowded prison in Baku for several months before his release in February 1995. In 19 % or 1997, the Ganja local government confiscated all 2,400 copies of a book about the nineteenth-century Russian occupation of Ganja.» Mass, state-sponsored falsification of history does happen in autocratic states. Virtually ALL Soviet historians were required to falsify history of the revolution and Stalinist era. ALL Nazi-era historians in Germany were required to support racist interpretation of world history. In many Arabic countries it is required to falsify the history of Palestine, etc. China is an example too. Therefore it is not UNREASONABLE to believe that most Azerbaijani historians MAY either falsify history or practice self-censorship. This is not about "nefarious purposes" of Azerbaijani scholars but about a well-researched issue of state-enforced bias. We should avoid making sweeping generalizations and should be careful about speaking in plural but mass, well-documented phenomena well-explained by reputable neutral sources is another matter. Gorzaim (talk) 19:30, 8 February 2011 (UTC)
Statement by Grandmaster
I agree that Twilight Chill was absolutely right by removing an extremely POV section, and by removing it Twilight Chill was trying to protect the integrity of Wikipedia as a reliable source of information. It should be noted that the sources that are used as references for the removed section contain plenty of info about Armenian revisionism, but the fact that the section is titled "Azerbaijani revisionism" and it has nothing about Armenian revisionist authors shows how biased the removed info was. I see no point in adding to the article information that has no direct relation to the ancient state of Albania, and especially when it is done in such biased and prejudiced manner, when only info attacking one country is picked, and negative info about the other is suppressed. In general, wikipedia is not a place for WP:ATTACK articles and sections in the articles, so I think that Twilight Chill was right by removing irrelevant info, and personally I don't find any sanctions to be appropriate here. Grandmaster 09:23, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
- Twilight Chill was wrong to engage in edit war, as per several comments here, and was wrong in his position regarding the chapter he tried to remove. Any article on Caucasian Albania should include a chapter of how knowledge about it is manipulated at least because those interested are entitled/warned to know that primary and secondary sources on C.Albania are manipulated, and why. This has nothing to do with WP:ATTACK, but with the state of knowledge on C.Albania. Also, unlike with situation regarding other historical subjects, C.Albania - as obscure as this topic is - is known in modern academia primarily because it is a politically-manipulated area of ancient history. Would an article about falsification of German history in Nazi Germany be an WP:ATTACK article? NO. Please feel free to add to the article if you feel it is incomplete. Vandorenfm (talk) 20:19, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
- How come that the section says nothing about Armenian revisionism, even if it receives equal coverage in the sources quoted in the article? Plus, even the admins here agreed that it is very far from NPOV. I see no reason for such a POV section to be in the article, especially considering that it was added without any consensus with other involved editors. It is a clear violation of WP:ATTACK, WP:NPOV, etc. I suggest we reach a consensus first with participation of neutral editors, and only after that we can add to the article. In the present form the section cannot be included, as it damages the reliability of Wikipedia as a source of information. Grandmaster 08:36, 10 February 2011 (UTC)
- Also, I have suspicions about the new accounts that make controversial edits to the article about Caucasian Albania. There was a large group of sock accounts banned from Wikipedia for edit warring in the same article. It is enough to check the history of the article. Now we have a group of brand new accounts that try to introduce the same POV. This tag team edit warring is highly suspicious. Most of the accounts listed here and here were active on the same article. I think the article about Albania should be carefully watched by the admins due to its troubled history. Grandmaster 08:44, 10 February 2011 (UTC)
Statement by (involved editor 2)
Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by Twilight Chill
Why don't administrators just be honest and admit that because of these Armenia-Azerbaijan remedies and enforcements, EVERY editor who regularly edits articles that fall under its sanctions will eventually be topic banned. Are these Armenia-Azerbaijan remedies and enforcements in any measurable way increasing the quality of the articles? If they are not, be rid of them. Have the actually become a self-defeating parody, a weapon in an endless POV war, used by one "side" to eliminate (for months, or years, or even for ever) editors seen as belonging to the other "side"? If that is all they are, be rid of them. Scribblescribblescribble (talk) 00:01, 6 February 2011 (UTC)
- Maybe once every POV pusher from both sides is banned, civilised editing by those who can do it from NPOV can begin, thus eventualy leading to better articles. - BorisG (talk) 15:39, 8 February 2011 (UTC)
Statement by Fedayee
I think it is very ironic that Grandmaster of all people talks about the preservation of the integrity of Wikipedia when he has run a mailing list which was in clear opposition of that integrity. Also note that Grandmaster had recenlty no contribution other than jumping right in there to revert to Brandmeister's version, reverting someone on Duduk on the generally recognized position that the Duduk was originally an Armenian instrument and filing another CU. Regarding the given section that he has removed (effectively meatpuppeting for a user who was topic banned for one year), there is little if any POV in that section besides maybe its title. What is reported there is a generally accepted fact including by pro-Azeri authors such as De Waal. - Fedayee (talk) 06:00, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
- Fedayee, I am commenting here in my admin capacity: do you have evidence for your allegation that Grandmaster has has run a mailing list to compromise Wikipedia's integrity, and that he was "meatpuppeting for a user who was topic banned for one year"? Sandstein 10:03, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
- I believe they are referring to ru:Википедия:Заявки на арбитраж/Азербайджанский список рассылки,. T. Canens (talk) 16:47, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
- Yes, I was refering to the link provided but not only that. In the content of the mailing list studied in the Russian Wikipedia, we read a reference on an English mailing list regarding the English Wikipedia. Someone uploaded also what appears to be a Facebook exchange. The limited exchange available shows that what was reported during the first Arbcom (English wiki, not Russian) case was accurate and that there was off-Wiki coordination which resulted into the AA. Another piece of information is that the articles which were targeted in the Russian mailing list were also targetted in the English Wikipedia at about the same dates.
- I believe they are referring to ru:Википедия:Заявки на арбитраж/Азербайджанский список рассылки,. T. Canens (talk) 16:47, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
- To note also that the new users which Grandmaster refers to here appear to be from the Russian Wikipedia because that section of the article comes from there. They weren't just added out of nowhere... Sockuppetry should only be suspected when something fishy happens that can not be explained from current conflicts on the Russian Wikipedia. The most active Armenian users on English Wikipedia are not active on Russian Wikipedia, when the same cannot be said about the Azeri users. That's why when conflicts from the Russian Wikipedia are brought here, you see a spate of new users from one side because most of the time they do not have an account here. I am not saying that this explains all accounts, but that may offer some kind of explanation.
Result of the appeal by Twilight Chill
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
- This is a difficult case. Unlike Sandstein, I'm satisfied that the text at issue, at least in part, amounts to a violation of WP:NPOV. It contains sweeping generalizations on Azerbaijanis and "Azerbaijani scholars" ("A key revisionist method used by Azerbaijani scholars mentioned by Victor Schnirelmann and others was ”re-publishing of ancient and medieval sources, where the term “Armenian state” was routinely and systematically removed and replaced with “Albanian state.”" and "Azerbaijanis have been “renaming prominent medieval Armenian political leaders, historians and writers, who lived in Karabakh and Armenia into “Albanians.”"), which I think is very close to Sandstein's example of "All [Armenis/Azerbaijanis] are liars and manipulate history to suit their nefarious purposes".
I agree with Sandstein, however, that NPOV is not an exemption to the edit warring policy, and therefore the conduct at issue is sanctionable. Nonetheless, were I reviewing the matter in the first instance, I might well have exercised my discretion to select a lesser sanction given my conclusion on the NPOV issue. But what I would have done is a very different question from whether Sandstein exceeded his discretion in imposing the sanction. I don't think he did, and therefore must reluctantly conclude, my reservations above notwithstanding, that the appeal should be declined. T. Canens (talk) 18:15, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Hxseek
Appeal declined. A new appeal in 3-6 months might be considered. EdJohnston (talk) 23:21, 10 February 2011 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).
Statement by HxseekThis was set in place after I violated a 3RR. I was given a 72 hr block for this, which is fair enough. However, I think the further discretion above is far too steep. My violation of 3RR for that article was a one off. I have not engaged in any offensive conduct. In fact, my contribution to the article has been substantial. The process we are using requires pain-staking negotiations. At times, some editors will take unanimous action and change eentire sections of text. This will need to be monitored. The above action will severely curtail any monitoring of this to the detriment of the above article. Responce to Athenean's statementFirstly, Athenean is an involved editor, as he was whom I engaged in the Rv war with. Secondly, Athenians actions not only show a lack of good will, but are in fact calculative. His hypocritical actions are shameful, and purely serve self-interest, under a guise of concern for the article. This all began when I added some newly published references, they were well referenced, and came from some of the leading scholars in the field. His reveerts were blatant, and purely because they did not siut his personal views. He trumped up claims of 'editorializing' , etc, despite the fact I was quoting the scholar themselves, and not concocting my own statements or POV. nevertheless, I have spent hours writing on the talk page' creating drafts, referencing, etc so that we can all agree on a concensus version. By the way, my changes were seen as good improvements by other editors, certainly improving the article from what it was In response, he took it upon himself to take advantage of the situation and went ahead making wide ranging changes, contra to the agreement, and self-contradicting his stance on not editorializing, and requiring for consensus. Yes, I have got hot under the collar at times , what Athenean did not mention is that all those posts were responses to inflammatory statements. Contrary to what Athenean said, I am not going to any length to have my way. The effort I have put in the talk page , engaging in civil dialogue and forging draft suggestions is a testament to this. What, rather is clear, is that Athenean's actions are hypocritical, self-serving and dishonest. And that's a shame because i thought we were finally making progress Hxseek (talk) 05:31, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
Hxseek (talk) 06:59, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
Statement by HJ MitchellStatement by Athenean
Asking for the restriction to be lifted so that he can "monitor" the article (i.e. revert war over anything that he doesn't approve of) should set alarm bells ringing. I have every indication to believe that if the restriction is lifted, he will go back to revert-warring (and that's presumably why he is asking for the sanction to be lifted). This is a user with a history of disruption on this topic, including inflammatory talkpage posts [65] [66] [67] [68] (and this is just a recent sample) and a certitude that he is neutral but that everyone that disagrees with him is part of a "coalition of the biased" [69]. This user clearly has very strong views on the topic and is willing to edit-war
I see that even when he is appealing the sanction and should know better, Hxseek is launching into personal attacks against me. He is even canvassing friendly [70] editors to come to his aid [71], including editors [72] with a history of overt, implacable hostility towards me [73]. It's also ironic that he claims that his edits are "well referenced, and came from some of the leading scholars in the field". And what are mine? OR? There is nothing controversial about my recent edits, all are impeccably sourced and improve the article, such as ref formatting [74] and corrections of his own poor grammar (e.g. [75]). Nor have I revert-warred or taken "advantage" of the situation. I did not revert any of the changes that were deemed good by other editors, in fact the only edit of mine that could be considered a revert during this whole time is the replacement of this piece of editorializing [76] ("What matters most....not as Greeks, but Macedonians") using cherry-picked sources (and a spurious "dubious" tag a to Britannica ref, which is anything but dubious). I also do not recall signing to any agreement prohibiting me from editing the article. And where is the editorializing on my part? Where do I use editorial language? And here at last Hxseek admits that he has no problems with my edits [77] (which I appreciate). On the other hand, Hxseek made major edits with a heavy editorial tone [78] (the ones which started this dispute) without consulting anyone, and is now demanding that no one make any edits without obtaining consensus (i.e. his approval)! He repeatedly claims that he is "neutral", that he quotes reliable scholars and that I blanket-revert him, when in fact the exact opposite is true. He blanket-reverted me (before self-rving)! And no, his edits do not "show both sides" as is plain for everyone to see, but rather consistently and unmistakably push the Macedonians-are-anything-but-Greeks meme. As for his claims that he attempts to resolve things on the talkpage, the inflammatory, trolling comments in the diffs above speak for themselves. Hxseek has been blocked 5 times [79], all for editwarring, including twice in recent months. Enough. Athenean (talk) 05:48, 4 February 2011 (UTC) Statement by (involved editor 2)Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by <Hxseek>Comment by AigestBeing myself a participant in Albanian and Dacian projects, I've had several contacts with Hxseek. He is a contributor which is very civil and informative in his discussion not only with me but even with other contributors in this wikiprojects as you may see me, Zenarnah, Hxseek, Dazius and Hxseek, Codrin.B, Dazius, Hxseek, Codrin.B, me and Hxseek etc. In every discussion I've had with Hxseek, I've found that he is very well informed in the topics he engages and he tries to be as much as possible academic and NPOV on the matters and his edits are well sourced with the latest references on the field. I would like to say something more on the Ancient Macedonians topic before commenting his behavior there. I suppose other editors know the Macedonian issue, name, identity etc. There are two sides of the story which claim the "truth" on their side. Beside political consequences this situation has repercussions even in wikipedia related articles. There are heavily POV editors who in the name of a nationalistic agenda are more interested in propagating "their truth" than expressing the academic view on the matter. From what I can see from this specific situation Hxseek first edit were an improvement of the previous version as accepted by an admin here. Just look at the way how the problem is tackled by Hxseek in the previous diff, not from "they were Greeks" or "they were not Greeks" POV, but from the latest (more than 20 years now) trend in history and archeology regarding fluid and complex identities in past times. This generated much reverts in the article by anon IP with a clear nationalist agenda so the page was semiprotected. Hxseek expresses his intentions here and I also find his position very logical, based in RS thus giving a fresh air to the status of the article. We can see also that Hxseek proposed a new version for the language section in the talk page. It might have take him months to read and hours to write that proposal but the response sounds more like a false accusation than a collaborative behavior. While in Hxseek contribution it is stated clear that "That Macedonian which is available to us comes from surviving inscriptions and personal names (onosmatics)." and "Hammond’s conclusion has been criticised by Borza and Crossland." he is accused of POV because "position that states that the language is related to Greek is "criticized" and "zero mention of the epigraphic evidence," while there was nothing like that in his edit. I believe that we all here know how frustrating this kind of situation might be. The fact the other users ( user:A Macedonian, a Greek, so much for the NPOV of the article) without participating in the debate intervened with the false "(actually this is the version per talk page...)?! didn't help the situation. I am not saying that what Hxseek did was right, but under these circumstances it is comprehensible to loose control, as he himself admits. In the end its efforts did improve the article a little bit and as far as I see from this the things are calmed down. Hxseek is an excellent contributor and a good talker and most of all, admits his faults and is always opened for a consensus, a rare thing among Balkan contributors. For all these circumstances I think that a 72 hour ban is more than enough for the case. That indefinite ban is an extreme measure, Hxseek learned the lesson and he does not have and edit war mentality. Summarizing, his contributions are of excellent quality with latest references open-minded for consensus and accepting his faults. The extended ban will only lead to impoverishment and POV pushing of related articles (judging by numerous heavily POV anon IP interventions on that articles that we can see from history) and we need good contributors there. P.S. I would like to add something about my opinion here. I am recently working on the maps and although I knew the good reputation that Hxseek has regarding map creations I felt that I should have thanked Hxseek for his great efforts while his excellent maps are widely in use in Balkan related articles. I saw the block and I've already expressed my opinion in his talk page even before he made the appeal here. Regardless of others opinion, I don't need an invitation to express my opinion on him. I think that he is one of the best contributors I've seen on wikipedia both in articles and maps and he should be considered like a valuable asset of this project, cause he has given a lot and has much more to give. Aigest (talk) 15:12, 4 February 2011 (UTC) Comment by DaizusI endorse Aigest's assessment above: Hxseek is a knowledgeable editor with lots to offer. For example, see his last two major proposals for this article: [80] and [81]. Some replies to this appeal make accusations which are groundless or one-sided. Both editors (HxSeek and Athenean) engaged in edit-warring and reverting (even though only HxSeek violated 3RR), so IMHO if HxSeek is a "hazard" (as BWilkins concluded) then so must be Athenean and other several editors with a long history of reverts in this article. This quarrel was started by a recent addition by HxSeek. Athenean accused him of "consistently and unmistakably" pushing "the Macedonians-are-anything-but-Greeks meme", but in the diffs provided as evidence ([82]) we can read: "Indeed, Macedonian’s possessed an eclectic mix of linguistic and cultural features, incorporating both Greek and non-Greek elements. Whilst the Macedonians were certainly part of a broader Greek cultural world at least by the 5th century, what matters most is that they made their mark not as Greeks, or a different Balkan people, but as Macedonians." (emphasis mine). Sure, such edits can be toned down, but I don't see the substance for the accusation above. Let's note this contribution was appreciated and defended by other editors against anonymous reverts: [83] [84]. As for this restriction and the protection of this article, Two recent comments by Athenean made me wonder:[85] and [86]. Apparently he is willing to compromise the quality of the article to gain score points in his personal quarrel with Hxseek. The attitude displayed here is "revert, not improve". And doesn't seem to me that HxSeek is the main offender. He was already blocked for 3RR and that seems fair enough. Here's a short history of reverts involving Athenean and HxSeek, some of them may be well justified, but some of them may be not, or at least should have been discussed first.
The pattern I see here is HxSeek trying to change or add something in the article and being reverted, mostly by Athenean. Sometimes HxSeek defended his position, sometimes he didn't. It's interesting to note that in all these cases HxSeek eventually conceded. Athenean shows no compromise, and as it's apparent from his last comments, he'd rather revert HxSeek's edits (even when appreciated by other editors) than build something on them. These being said, IMHO a restriction on HxSeek only is one-sided and unfair. The pattern above suggests it's rather HxSeek's edits being reverted (by users like Athenean). Daizus (talk) 10:52, 7 February 2011 (UTC) Result of the appeal by Hxseek
The administrator whose action ([100]) is being appealed has not been notified of this appeal. If this does not happen within 24 hours, and the corresponding diff is not logged in the appeal, the appeal may be summarily closed. Sandstein 07:27, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
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George Al-Shami
Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Request concerning George Al-Shami
- User requesting enforcement
- Pantherskin (talk) 19:33, 6 February 2011 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- George Al-Shami (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Sanction or remedy that this user violated
- Wikipedia:ARBPIA#Discretionary sanctions, WP:ARBPIA#Editors reminded, WP:ARBPIA#Editors counseled
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- [101] first interaction with this editor, and his first comment on me (a few weeks ago), accusing me of "cook[ing] up some disingenuous argument" and having a "unabashed extremist pro-Zionist stance" and "highest caliber of POV-pushing", no sanction was imposed
- [102] revert of my edit with a gracious edit summary, not related to the content, but to my persona
- [103] again attacking and unnecessarily personalizing a content dispute
- Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)
[104] Civility warning by Shell Kinney (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
- Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction)
- Topic ban/mentorship
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
- This editor has a history of attacking and accusing other of having a particular POV, instead of actually discussing the content. In particular, the comment on me a few weeks ago on WP:AE was quite unacceptable. I would have hoped that this was a one-time incident, but apparently it was not as my edit was reverted with accusations, instead of a serious content discussion. What is also concerning is this edit of 2008, [105]. It is indeed a long time ago, but it is an edit to the same article that introduces a claim that is ostensibly supported by a source. But as is clear from looking at the source [106] there is nothing on the cited page, nothing indeed in the whole book about the claim that "according to the UN office in Jerusalem from 1955 until 1967 65 of the 69 border flare-ups between Syria and Israel were caused and started by Israel". This might be several years ago, but it leaves the question to what extent we can trust this editor to be honest with sources and citations. He might have changed of course, although I have my doubts given the continuining incivility and battleground mentality.
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
- [107]
Discussion concerning George Al-Shami
Statement by George Al-Shami
In my response on the talk page, I advise User:Pantherskin to stop editing any political article, because of his apparent disregard of Wikipedia's neutrality. My comment was borne from a frustarting disbelief that an editor with a history, such as User:Pantherskin's, is still allowed to edit. Regarding the actual edit that sparked my rv and comment to User:Pantherskin; User:Pantherskin went along and removed a properly sourced passage, which he doesn't want in the article for the above reasons mentioned in my original comment; User:Pantherskin's many reverts to remove the properly sourced Dyan quotes got him banned for 30 hours. Despite being banned for removing the Dayan quotes, User:Pantherskin continues to remove it; after getting banned he waited for some time and now he's back removing the same quotes. The quotes in question were discussed for a lengthy time, however despite the lack of consensus for removing them, User:Pantherskin continues to remove the aforementioned properly sourced quotes. To prove the above, please look at the reverts User:Pantherskin made, which eventually got him banned for 30 hours, [108]
With regards to an unrelated edit I made 2 years ago (which User:Pantherskin is using to discredit me), I misreferenced a reference, which was taken from a scholarly text. I accidentally provided the wrong page and ever since User:Pantherskin has been using this example to discredit me and my whole editing history on Wikipedia. The actual numbers were taken from a documentary from an American official, who stated that 64 of the 69 border-flare-ups were deliberately started by Israel to provoke Syria and once Syria was provoked Israel sent manipulated press clips to the US to prove that Syria was the real aggressor and not Israel, when in fact it was Israel that was deliberately provoking Syria. User:Pantherskin reverted my edit and I never reverted that edit. I am still waiting to see how to properly source a documentary. Furthermore I remember reading from the text in question that it was Israel which started the overwhelming number of border flare-ups. Because User:Pantherskin cannot accept the actual historical line of events, he keeps removing a quotes from an Israeli general which backs up the edit I made more than 2 years ago.
Pantherskin (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Diffs of edits that violate the ban from editing the Syria article. Despite getting into trouble for this, User:Pantherskin continues to either alter or remove the Dayan quotes and other passages.
- [109] Removed Dayan qoutes and passage.
- [110] Again removed Dayan qoutes and passage.
- [111] Removed properly sourced passage and the source, the New York Times. User:Pantherskin is ok with the NYT when it backs his POV, but not ok wih it when it doesn't back his pov.
- [112] Again for the third time removes the Dayan qoutes and passage.
In conclusion, I believe I made a mistake, rather than making a comment about User:Pantherskin's obvious disregard to wikipedia's neutrality; I should have reported him for reverting the same passage that caused him to get banned in the first place. Moreover, to provide more context about the comments (referenced by User:Pantherskin) I made 2 weeks ago on another request (filed by a different user) against User:Pantherskin, please check this [113] and read what the closing editor said.George Al-Shami (talk) 22:30, 6 February 2011 (UTC)
- So if you accidentally provided the wrong page, what is the correct page? Because searching for the number 69 in the book does not show anyting supporting this claim. There might or there might not be a documentary that makes these claims, but then why do use a completely unrelated book as a reference?
- And yes, I got blocked for edit-warring. But I learned from this, and was careful from then on to discuss the content and to build a consensus for the removal of a quote and rewrite of the section. You might not agree with my assessment (and in fact other editor's assessment) of what should be in the article and what not, but that does not give you the right to be incivil and paint me as an extremist and as someone with complete disregard for Wikipedia's policies (as once again you did here...) Pantherskin (talk) 23:07, 6 February 2011 (UTC)
- Re removal of a quote - you might notice that there was a discussion on the talk page, and that there was a rough consensus for not including the quote (and several other editor also removed the quote), due to the WP:UNDUE, WP:NPOV problem. Of course one could argue that I misinterpreted the consensus, but whatever. In any case I note that although you are quick to revert other editors with edit summaries such as "removed brazen POV additions", "no consensus has been achieved by this extreme POV pushing, a new york times article is only acceptable if it casts a positive light on Israel?)" or "wow, I still don't understand how the previous editor is still allowed to edit. Undid unbelievable POV editing, restored deleted paragraphs" you are not participating in any talk page discussions, except for two posts that discussed/attacked editors, but not the content. Pantherskin (talk) 21:04, 8 February 2011 (UTC)
- No, there was never any consensus for removing the Dayan quotes, 5 editors were against removing, whereas another 4 were for it; I'm sorry that's not a consensus. I do participate when a point I want to make is not made; however I did discuss the Dayan quotes once and then stopped when other editors were making the same points I wanted to make. If you disagree with my comments about your editing, then how would you describe the behavior of an editor who keeps removing a properly sourced quote when no consensus has been achieved to remove it and the said editor has been warned before about such actions. Honestly speaking Panhterskin, I have closely monitored your behavior; and I have noticed that when you object to a source you start coming up with every excuse in the book just to remove it. For example with the Dayan quotes, you first mentioned that an Israeli general's comments should be discounted because, in your opinion, other pro-zionist scholars disagree with him. Then you started attacking the actual source, NYT, arguing roughly that it's not reliable; and then you started mentioning that this passage has no place in the Syria article. Pantherskin, please be honest; if you are truly sincere about bettering the Syria article then why would you attack a source from every possible angle? What would you come up with every possible argument just to remove the source. As mentioned before many other editors, including myself, objected to the reasons you were providing, on the grounds that your reasons were not legitimate.George Al-Shami (talk) 21:48, 8 February 2011 (UTC)
- Maybe, if you would actually participate in talk page discussion instead of edit-warring with your gracious edit summaries you would notice that I and several editors gave specific reasons why including this quote, without any qualification, violates WP:NPOV. And no, the scholars are not "pro-zionist", although apparently you use this label quite often, despite several warning not to do so. And contrary to you, at least I come up with reasons for my edits, instead of just edit-warring and attacking other editors as you do. Pantherskin (talk) 18:14, 10 February 2011 (UTC)
- Shell Kinney's singular comment does not amount to "several editors". Moreover I do not attack editors, I comment on the nature of the edit itself; there's a big difference between the two. In your case I did call you out, because I was frustrated by the fact that the community was allowing you to continue to edit, even when it was demonstrated that you were not able to contribute neutrally to the Syria article. You placed sources that other editors referred to as "cherry-picking" and I never removed them; however when other editors placed sources that contradicted your sources you began attacking the latter sources, edit-warring and removing them, which led to the aforementioned ban. Last but not least, I did participate in the discussion and stopped when other editors were making the same points I wanted to make.George Al-Shami (talk) 00:53, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
- Maybe, if you would actually participate in talk page discussion instead of edit-warring with your gracious edit summaries you would notice that I and several editors gave specific reasons why including this quote, without any qualification, violates WP:NPOV. And no, the scholars are not "pro-zionist", although apparently you use this label quite often, despite several warning not to do so. And contrary to you, at least I come up with reasons for my edits, instead of just edit-warring and attacking other editors as you do. Pantherskin (talk) 18:14, 10 February 2011 (UTC)
- No, there was never any consensus for removing the Dayan quotes, 5 editors were against removing, whereas another 4 were for it; I'm sorry that's not a consensus. I do participate when a point I want to make is not made; however I did discuss the Dayan quotes once and then stopped when other editors were making the same points I wanted to make. If you disagree with my comments about your editing, then how would you describe the behavior of an editor who keeps removing a properly sourced quote when no consensus has been achieved to remove it and the said editor has been warned before about such actions. Honestly speaking Panhterskin, I have closely monitored your behavior; and I have noticed that when you object to a source you start coming up with every excuse in the book just to remove it. For example with the Dayan quotes, you first mentioned that an Israeli general's comments should be discounted because, in your opinion, other pro-zionist scholars disagree with him. Then you started attacking the actual source, NYT, arguing roughly that it's not reliable; and then you started mentioning that this passage has no place in the Syria article. Pantherskin, please be honest; if you are truly sincere about bettering the Syria article then why would you attack a source from every possible angle? What would you come up with every possible argument just to remove the source. As mentioned before many other editors, including myself, objected to the reasons you were providing, on the grounds that your reasons were not legitimate.George Al-Shami (talk) 21:48, 8 February 2011 (UTC)
- Re removal of a quote - you might notice that there was a discussion on the talk page, and that there was a rough consensus for not including the quote (and several other editor also removed the quote), due to the WP:UNDUE, WP:NPOV problem. Of course one could argue that I misinterpreted the consensus, but whatever. In any case I note that although you are quick to revert other editors with edit summaries such as "removed brazen POV additions", "no consensus has been achieved by this extreme POV pushing, a new york times article is only acceptable if it casts a positive light on Israel?)" or "wow, I still don't understand how the previous editor is still allowed to edit. Undid unbelievable POV editing, restored deleted paragraphs" you are not participating in any talk page discussions, except for two posts that discussed/attacked editors, but not the content. Pantherskin (talk) 21:04, 8 February 2011 (UTC)
Comments by others about the request concerning George Al-Shami
Result concerning George Al-Shami
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.
Vandorenfm
Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Request concerning Vandorenfm
- User requesting enforcement
- Twilightchill t 21:36, 10 February 2011 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- Vandorenfm (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Sanction or remedy that this user violated
- Wikipedia:AA2#Amended Remedies and Enforcement
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- revert with inappropriate edit summary
- subsequent unsubstantiated revert
- further revert with the "vandalism" considerations
- new revert with the accusations of "disruptive editing"
The continuous reverts look like an attempt to win the ongoing dispute. Seems to be a breach of Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Armenia-Azerbaijan 2#Edit warring considered harmful and Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Armenia-Azerbaijan 2#Assume good faith
- Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)
- [114] Warning by Twilight Chill (talk · contribs)
- Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction)
- Revert restriction or any other sanction deemed appropriate
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
Regarding Sandstein's comment below on request's reasons, I would note that because the aforementioned reverts fall under AA2 case, this board seems to be more appropriate rather than WP:ANEW, where edit-warrings are commonly reported. Given that WP:TBAN does not explicitly ban the AE requests and the AE notice that "most editors under ArbCom sanction... should be treated with the same respect as any other editor", I think this report is warranted: Vandorenfm's (as well as Gorzaim's) edits create unhealthy editorial atmoshphere in the Caucasian Albania article for a couple of days. Twilightchill t 22:41, 10 February 2011 (UTC)
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
- [115]
Discussion concerning Vandorenfm
Statement by Vandorenfm
I do not see any reason for this request. User: Twilight Chill has been edit warring for which he was recently topic-banned for one year. In essence, he is trying here to accuse me in responding to his disruptive actions for which he got eventually banned. His removal of large portions of texts was courteously reverted with proper explanation and suggestions to cooperate. User: Twilight Chill refused to explain his actions [116], [117]. In other words, he continued his unexplained “naked” reverts, claiming with no evidence and explanation that the text he kept removing violated WP:NPOV. And, as a result of his actions User: Twilight Chill was topic-banned for a year. His hands cannot be more unclean for this request.
Regarding the entire business of removing chapters from the article Caucasian Albania, the sysop/admin User:John Vandenberg wrote to User: Twilight Chill: “Twilight Chill, wrt your NPOV concerns, edit warring and removal of entire sections isn't appropriate. Historical revisionism is relevant to Caucasian Albania; maybe the section should be trimmed down a bit, but that should have been discussed on talk, noticeboards, etc., or a RFC if consensus can't be found. Removing it wasn't the right approach” [118]. By this User:John Vandenberg confirmed that:
- User: Twilight Chill was edit warring
- Removal of entire sections isn't appropriate
- Discussion of historical revisionism is relevant to the article on Caucasian Albania (in contrast to what some editors claim
I was simply following the admin User:John Vandenberg recommendation when I was trying to deal with “removal of entire sections,” that’s all.
When User: Twilight Chill got banned for one year for edit warring, “removal of entire sections” was being done by the veteran Azerbaijani editor User: Grandmaster. User: Grandmaster is a confirmed disruptive editor in Russian Wikipedia, currently blocked for 6 months: [119]. User: Grandmaster was accused by Russian admins in being a mastermind behind a syndicate in which he coordinated actions of a dozen of Azerbaijani editors to disrupt multiple articles in Azerbaijani/Armenian topic area [120]. I appeal to the admins to deal with User: Grandmaster in English-based wiki as well, and stop him asap because he may practice the same tricks here. And one of User: Grandmaster’s accomplices in Russian wiki was the same User: Twilight Chill also known as User: Brandmeister, [121]. User: Twilight Chill has been banned from editing any topics related to Armenia/Azerbaijan in Russian wiki [122].
User: Twilight Chill’s first accusation called “revert with inappropriate edit summary” is baseless. Everyone can see that it was unclear why he removed an entire good and well sourced chapter from the article. He never explained what he was doing and why.
His second accusation called “subsequent unsubstantiated revert” is a false claim. “Unsubstantiated revert” was Twilight Chill’s, not mine. I corrected an unexplained disruption. I substantiated this revert on talk pages. And it was clear that User: Twilight Chill was edit-warring since he did not explain why he was reverting, for which he eventually got topic-banned for one year.
His third accusation called “further revert with the "vandalism" considerations” is unfounded. In “Types of vandalism” [123], under “Sneaky vandalism,” we read that vandalism is “reverting legitimate edits with the intent of hindering the improvement of pages.” The history of Caucasian AlbaniaI is an obscure topic by itself and, as, testified by numerous sources, people care about it because this issue is misused for political reasons in Azerbaijan. Azerbaijani authors were accused in the West and Russia of manipulating historical texts, and world readers should be aware of this phenomenon, and should know why that happens. Robert Hewsen, a historian from Rowan College and the acknowledged authority in this field, wrote in his volume Armenia: A Historical Atlas, published by Chicago University Press:
Scholars should be on guard when using Soviet and post-Soviet Azeri editions of Azeri, Persian, and even Russian and Western European sources printed in Baku. These have been edited to remove references to Armenians and have been distributed in large numbers in recent years. When utilizing such sources, the researchers should seek out pre-Soviet editions wherever possible. Robert Hewsen. “Armenia: A Historical Atlas. Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 2001, p. 291
By removing this chapter without any explanation User: Twilight Chill and User: Grandmaster were both “hindering the improvement of pages” as explained in “Types of vandalism” [124]. In fact, I did not accuse anyone in vandalism directly, just hypothesized and warned that this, theoretically, can be seen as vandalism. But my courtesy remained unanswered.
The forth accusation “new revert with the accusations of "disruptive editing" unfounded as well. User: Grandmaster was indeed engaged in disruptive editing, removing an entire chapter several times [125], [126]. Instead of detailing out what is wrong with the chapter and giving examples why what he says is true, User: Grandmaster explained his actions with this: “wiki articles are not a place for propaganda” [127]. This is a violation of WP civility code. I suggested twice that User: Grandmaster may modify content if he feels it is incomplete or lopsided. But User: Grandmaster was not listening.
Overall, I was following/enforcing User:John Vandenberg’s assessment of the situation. User:John Vandenberg’s text is this [128].
I strongly disagree that "Vandorenfm's contribution history suggests an account created solely to make warlike partisan edits in the AA topic area." I have been unduly busy with this issue only because of disruptive behavior of banned members of Russian wiki like Grandmaster and Twilight Chill. They slow me down. I am a new user but have already create a page on Nor Varagavank.
Vandorenfm (talk) 03:15, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
Additional Comments No 1
- My actions cannot be considered as edit warring since I was reverting bad faith edits of the banned User:Grandmaster, Russian Wiki's most notorious disruptive editor of all times [129], [130]. The decision of the arbitration committee of Russian wiki says: "Арбитражный Комитет постановляет заблокировать учётную запись Grandmaster на 6 месяцев. В течение 6 месяцев после разблокировки на участника будет наложен запрет на редактирование спорных статей и ограничение на редактирование пространств Википедии, как описано в пункте 3 данного решения." That means: "Arbitration Committee decided to block the account Grandmaster for 6 months. During 6 months after the block is lifted, this participant will be banned for editing disputed articles for 6 months, per point 3 of this decision."
- To User:Sandstein: I took a seminar of how to edit Wiki run by a group of American volunteers. That's why I was brought up to speed so quickly, and could edit Wiki easily. Such seminars are a common practice on university campuses these days. Vandorenfm (talk) 17:44, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
Comments by others about the request concerning Vandorenfm
This is just to note that, unrelated to this request but because of the continued edit-warring which it partly reflects, I have applied article-level discretionary sanctions to Caucasian Albania, as described at Talk:Caucasian Albania#Discretionary sanctions. Sandstein 21:45, 10 February 2011 (UTC)
- Something is clearly wrong here. We have 4 strange accounts, Xebulon (talk · contribs), Vandorenfm (talk · contribs), Gorzaim (talk · contribs) and Oliveriki (talk · contribs). They all started appearing one by one since November, and edit the same set of articles in AA area, the main focus being that about Caucasian Albania. [131] Oliveriki is clearly a throwaway account created for the sole purpose of reverting, while Gorzaim is the one used for controversial editing, and the rest seem to be used for reverting and posting support comments for Gorzaim. It is interesting that Caucasian Albania is the same article that was a favorite target of a well-known sockmaster Verjakette/Paligun, and these CU results might give some idea about the scale of disruption: Wikipedia:Requests_for_checkuser/Case/Erkusukes and Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Paligun/Archive. Even the CU clerk noticed that something strange was going on, but the CU showed no connection between those accounts: [132] However behavioral evidence is too strong to dismiss suspicions. Verjakette used open proxies to evade CU detection, so the socking was established only after a number of checks. It is also of interest that Gorzaim and Vandorenfm mostly do not edit on the same days, when one is gone, the other takes his place. It could be that it is one person changing his location, which allows him to evade CU. But the edits of those accounts are absolutely identical. I think the activity of these 4 accounts needs a thorough investigation, and in my opinion they clearly fail a duck test. Btw, yesterday this SPI request: [133] proved that another puppeteer was involved in Caucasian Albania article, so we might be dealing with more than one sockmaster. Also, I think the article needs to be protected on a neutral version, and controversial parts can be included only when a broad consensus with involvement of third party editors is reached. The arbcom decision was clearly about consensual editing in AA area. Grandmaster 11:04, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
- If it is a problem that this request was filed by the topic banned user, I can sign up for it, or resubmit it, because I think that the conduct of Vandorenfm deserves consideration. Grandmaster 08:21, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
Comment by BorisG
I find it quite extraordinary that admins consider request by a topic-banned user. This rewards and encourages violations of the topic bans. Yes admins also block the filing party but this is clearly a penalty they are prepared to pay for having the rival party topic banned for a long time. We should avoid encouraging such behaviour. - BorisG (talk) 15:03, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
- Since this editor was banned from the entire area of the conflict, rather than from only editing articles on the subject, I agree with Boris. This should not be encouraged. Vandorenfm is clearly an SPA, but I am not sure if we have a clear policy about SPA, especially when they also make some constructive edits, as Vandorenfm did. Biophys (talk) 16:53, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
- I will look at wp:ru over the weekend. Feel free to move my comment. - BorisG (talk) 14:57, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
- Nothing of real interest except an article about Armenian terrorism and many other subjects that are much better developed on ruwiki than here. Rather than fighting, these editors should simply translate good materials from Russian.Biophys (talk) 18:56, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
- OK, I am of the firm opinion that contributions from topic banned editors should not be considered, and this includes this request. I also note that it appears that this request was files after V commented on twighlight chill's appeal. I therefore think we should NOT be looking at the substance of this request. It is also not clear to me whether admins want me to look at wp:ru and what exactly they are interested in. If you want me to look, please pose specific questions, if any. Otherwise I will do something more useful. Cheers. - BorisG (talk) 01:35, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
- I have read the entire case and checked which of the sanctioned users are present on enwiki. I have e-mailed the list to EdJohnson. As for the translated version, obviously it is not proper English but should be clear in the main. I cannot edit the whole translation; I think it is unnecessary. If anyone is intersted in interpretation of a particular section or passage, I am happy to give one. Cheers. - BorisG (talk) 08:35, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
- OK, I am of the firm opinion that contributions from topic banned editors should not be considered, and this includes this request. I also note that it appears that this request was files after V commented on twighlight chill's appeal. I therefore think we should NOT be looking at the substance of this request. It is also not clear to me whether admins want me to look at wp:ru and what exactly they are interested in. If you want me to look, please pose specific questions, if any. Otherwise I will do something more useful. Cheers. - BorisG (talk) 01:35, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
- Nothing of real interest except an article about Armenian terrorism and many other subjects that are much better developed on ruwiki than here. Rather than fighting, these editors should simply translate good materials from Russian.Biophys (talk) 18:56, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
- I will look at wp:ru over the weekend. Feel free to move my comment. - BorisG (talk) 14:57, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
Result concerning Vandorenfm
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.
- Waiting for a statement by Vandorefm, but at first glance this looks like sanctionable edit-warring. But I note that the requesting editor is topic-banned from this area of conflict (User talk:Twilight Chill#Arbitration enforcement topic ban: Armenia and Azerbaijan), and this AE report is not one of the exceptions recognized in Wikipedia:BAN#Exceptions to limited bans. I ask him to provide reasons why he should not himself be sanctioned for violating his topic ban by making this enforcement request. Sandstein 21:57, 10 February 2011 (UTC)
- I suggest that Vandorenfm be topic-banned from AA for three months, and that Twilight Chill be blocked one week for violating his own topic ban. Vandorenfm's contribution history suggests an account created solely to make warlike partisan edits in the AA topic area. Longer-term, putting full protection on Caucasian Albania for two months might be considered. Admins could still perform any edits which had consensus if they were requested via {{editprotect}}. A search of the AE archives for Caucasian Albania gets 23 hits. EdJohnston (talk) 23:04, 10 February 2011 (UTC)
- Accounts "created solely to make warlike partisan edits" should get an indef topic ban, if not an indef block. I find the recent number of ARBAA2 reports to be concerning. T. Canens (talk) 03:21, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
- I'm not sure that Vandorenfm can accurately be described as a disruption-only account. They have created one useful article, Nor Varagavank (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) - but one wonders that a user only registered since December 2010 and with very few other edits would be able to create such an article. At any rate, the evidence shows that Vandorenfm has been edit-warring to win a content dispute, by reintroducing a contested section four times, and his statement does not rebut this. The merits of the arguments for or against the section's inclusion are not relevant; one does not resolve such disputes by edit-warring. I support a topic ban on that basis. I am also issuing an enforcement block to Twilight Chill. Sandstein 09:34, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
- Accounts "created solely to make warlike partisan edits" should get an indef topic ban, if not an indef block. I find the recent number of ARBAA2 reports to be concerning. T. Canens (talk) 03:21, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
- Vandorenfm has made reference to ruwiki. I wonder if any enwiki admins have been following the AA disputes on the Russian wikipedia. It is not out of the question that we could pay some attention to the events there, especially regarding groups of people coordinating their edits, if there is a person fluent in both languages who can explain them. There was a Russian arbcom case that closed in August 2010, called 'Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Azerbaijani mailing list'. I see that the list of case participants includes some familiar names. Can anybody help interpret that case for us? EdJohnston (talk) 05:01, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
- Reading the Gtranslated version, it seems to be an EEML-style mailing list used for coordinated edit warring and canvassing. T. Canens (talk) 05:14, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
- Can you post that translation somewhere? (It's an automated derivative work of CC-BY-SA text, so ought to be CC-BY-SA also.) I can't get Google to translate the full page. Sandstein 18:30, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
- User:Timotheus Canens/sandbox. T. Canens (talk) 20:53, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
- Thanks. I'm not sure how this Russian case applies to this request, or falls within the remit of AE at all, unless somebody can show evidence that the same people are coordinating their edits on this Wikipedia also. Although the Wikimedia projects are normally considered separate for dispute resolution purposes, I believe we should take ArbCom-established misconduct on another project into account when deciding how to address misconduct on our project. Sandstein 21:57, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
- User:Timotheus Canens/sandbox. T. Canens (talk) 20:53, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
- Can you post that translation somewhere? (It's an automated derivative work of CC-BY-SA text, so ought to be CC-BY-SA also.) I can't get Google to translate the full page. Sandstein 18:30, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
- Reading the Gtranslated version, it seems to be an EEML-style mailing list used for coordinated edit warring and canvassing. T. Canens (talk) 05:14, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
Night w
Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Request concerning Night w
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- Night w (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Sanction or remedy that this user violated
- Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Palestine-Israel articles#General 1RR restriction
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- [134] First reversion
- [135] Second reversion, and violation of the 1RR (note: while the user asks to 'discuss this first', the user has reverted to the version that agrees with his/her point of view, not a neutral version).
- Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)
Not applicable - WP:1RR is not really possible to warn about...
- Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction)
- Not sure - I'm uninvolved here, and just noticed it as I was browsing around.
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
- While reversion of vandalism obviously does not fall under the WP:1RR, this user was not reverting bad faith edits, despite claims to be doing so in the user's edit summary. In fact, the user was 'reverting' to a version that agreed with his/her point of view, rather than a neutral version (a neutral revision was requested by the other party to the dispute, to no avail - this user simply reverted to a POV version instead).
This also may be useful here - this is a discussion during which I believe Night w is attempting to defend his or her actions (not entirely sure though).
As an uninvolved user, I felt it right to report this here. I'm not sure whether Night w was in the right or not here, but I felt that the issue should at least be looked at.
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
- Notified at 23:17, 10 February 2011. Arctic Night 23:18, 10 February 2011 (UTC)
Discussion concerning Night w
Statement by Night w
- Disclaimer: I am fully aware of the 1RR policy concerning this page, and admit that I have violated this. This issue relates to a recent ANI discussion (here), and a new one (here). Nightw 06:29, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
The page in question is one that is primarily edited by only two editors, myself and one Alinor (talk · contribs). Unfortunately, we rarely see eye-to-eye, and my actions on this page have been regrettable on numerous occasions in the past. Regarding the recent actions in question:
- Both reverts made within the 24-hour period concerned the same material.
- Both reverts undid repeated changes by Alinor that were under ongoing discussion on the talk page, and that were repeated without consensus.
- Both reverts undid repeated changes by Eliko (talk · contribs) that were scrutinised under two ANI discussions (see links above), a TfD nomination, that were made during ongoing discussion at the OR noticeboard, and that were repeated without consensus.
- Both reverts were to a stable version from a period in which only minor edits were made for six days, so that ongoing discussion could reach a conclusion.
I admit to violating 1RR, and I'll accept whatever consequences arises from that. Having said that, with only two other users involved in editing that page, I'm at a loss trying to keep that article stable, and the situation called for reverting to a stable version, and for discussion to take place on the talk page. Nightw 06:29, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
Comments by others about the request concerning Night w
- Night w, both of us were involved in back and forth editing, yes. But I see that you continue to push for your undiscussed or non-consensus changes and even claim that they are the "stable version". Just because I refrained from reverting your edits for a few days while I waited for you to use the Talk:Foreign relations of the Palestinian National Authority and Talk:State of Palestine where many of the sections were "waiting" for your input. Please stop claiming that a version pushing your edits is "stable". On both articles you don't agree with some of my changes and I don't agree with some of your changes; if you insist you can revert to a version with NEITHER, not to a version with your changes that I don't agree. Such versions are for Foreign relations - [136] (see my 13:20, 10 February 2011 comment at the talk page there) and for SoP - [137] (Or some version before that - such that doesn't include neither your nor mine changes that the other side doesn't agree with). Of course, reverting to those versions will not be the best solution (as they have some imperfections that we both agree that should be corrected) - but we don't have another option if you continue to refuse to discuss at the talk pages. I would be happy to discuss on the talk page while the article is presented in "your version" - if you were admitting that it's not "stable/consensus". But since you continue to claim that your unilateral changes are "stable/consensus" (and even try to use the time I refrained from reverting them as proof that they are such) I suggest that both articles are immediately reverted to a real stable version (without neither your nor mine changes). Separately there is the issue with the Eliko sources that I really don't understand why you object so furiously. Alinor (talk) 10:17, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
- It's not a separate issue, since you've incorporated it into your own edits that you've repeated without consensus, or even a discussion in attempt to attain one. Considering that there is an active discussion on the OR noticeboard about this issue, overriding that discussion before consensus can be achieved is a massive violation of policy, and an insult to every editor that is involved in trying to achieve a consensus there. Nightw 10:42, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
- The Eliko sources are a separate issue. I incorporated these into my edits, just as I incorporate your edits that I agree with. Eliko added them to the page and in the next of my edits I retained them (because I agree with their inclusion).
- The main problem is your claims that your version is the stable version. I suggest that you and I don't make any edits to these two articles, make a list of all changes (compared to the real stable versions), discuss and hopefully agree (with the involvement of another editors maybe - as Chipmunkdavis suggests below), then implement only what's discussed, then we will know what the "new stable" version is, then we can discuss further changes. Alinor (talk) 07:24, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
- It's not a separate issue, since you've incorporated it into your own edits that you've repeated without consensus, or even a discussion in attempt to attain one. Considering that there is an active discussion on the OR noticeboard about this issue, overriding that discussion before consensus can be achieved is a massive violation of policy, and an insult to every editor that is involved in trying to achieve a consensus there. Nightw 10:42, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
- Oh no! The page is wrong! I suggest that instead of any editor undergoing blocking, the article(s) be fully protected for awhile and the dispute taken into some form of dispute resolution such as an RFC or 3rd opinion. I personally don't see the discussion just between these two editors going very far here, especially due to the situation. Probably a good idea if both post their argument, back off, and cool down. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 13:16, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
- I agree with Chipmunkdavis. I'm not familiar with the article in question but I've seen these two at work at State of Palestine, and blocking one or both of them won't help. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 07:55, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
Result concerning Night w
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.
Alinor and Night w are the two main contributors to Foreign relations of the Palestinian National Authority, with 270 edits each. They both seem to be well-intentioned, but their constant warring is why they are here. Since this is a contentious article which falls under I/P, I recommend that both of them be topic banned from the article for one month, while they can still contribute on the talk page. Before this closes, if they can make a credible proposal for how to work together in the future, this action might be avoided. For example, an RFC, an agreement to always talk before reverting, an agreement on how to format references, etc. I suggest we allow 24 hours for this miracle to occur, and then decide. EdJohnston (talk) 17:35, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
Grandmaster (resubmitted below in the next request due to technical mistake/omission)
Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Request concerning Grandmaster
- User requesting enforcement
- Vandorenfm (talk) 21:15, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- Grandmaster (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Sanction or remedy that this user violated
- Presumed to be the AA2 discretionary sanctions - Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Armenia-Azerbaijan 2#Amended Remedies and Enforcement. AGK [•] 17:18, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- [138] Unexplained accusations of POV accompanied by revert
- [139] Unexplained accusations of POV accompanied by revert
- [140] Removed an entire section in an article, repeating action of a user who was banned for that very set of actions; possibly “sneaky vandalism” as described in Types of Vandalism
- [141] Removed an entire section in an article, repeating action of a user who was banned for that very set of actions; possibly “sneaky vandalism” as described in Types of Vandalism
- [142] Accompanied his removal of an entire section in article by rude commentary featuring unfounded accusations of propaganda
- [143] Pressed accusations of sock puppetry despite documented evidence to the contrary
- Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)
- > Warning by Vandorenfm (talk · contribs)
- Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction)
- block
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
The case concerns User:Grandmaster, who was recently banned from editing Russian wiki for 6 months, with subsequent topic ban for another 6 months when the first ban expires this year. Admins of Russian wiki identified User:Grandmaster as a mastermind behind a virtual organization in which he coordinated actions of a dozen of Azerbaijani editors to edit multiple articles in Azerbaijani/Armenian topic area [144].
There is some evidence that User:Grandmaster may similarly be part of such virtual organization in English wiki. Here User:Quantum666 posted a message to Grandmaster under "Shusha/Shushi" seeking his involvement [145]. User:Quantum666 was part of the Russian wiki cabal that Grandmaster allegedly managed, and was indefinitely banned by Russian admins [146].
User:Twilight Chill, also known as User: Brandmeister was User:Grandmaster’s yet another alleged partner in the cabal in Russian wiki, and was banned for such involvement [147]. User:Grandmaster replaced User:Twilight Chill in edit warring and removal of an entire chapter in the article Caucasian Albania when User:Twilight Chill got topic-banned in English wiki for one year for such unexplained reverts. Grandmaster’s decision to support User:Twilight Chill’s actions in Caucasian Albania may represent additional evidence that both are part of such organization in English wiki as well. User: Twilight Chill aka Brandmeister has been banned from editing any topics related to Armenia/Azerbaijan in Russian wiki [148].
User:Twilight Chill’s and, hence indirectly, Grandmaster’s actions, were censured by the sysop/admin User:John Vandenberg who wrote to User: Twilight Chill: “Twilight Chill, wrt your NPOV concerns, edit warring and removal of entire sections isn't appropriate. Historical revisionism is relevant to Caucasian Albania” [149].
In violation of AA2#Category:Wikipedia_sockpuppeteers [150], Grandmaster posted baseless accusations of sockpuppetry [151], disregarding the fact that several times such connection has already been declined by sockpuppetry investigations [152], [153], [154].
In the past Grandmaster was subjected to the following restrictions regarding reverts:
- Revert parole [155]
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
- The requesting user is asked to notify the user against whom this request is directed of it, and then to replace this text with a diff of that notification. The request will normally not be processed otherwise.
Discussion concerning Grandmaster
Statement by Grandmaster
I don't really understand what I'm being accused of here. Whatever happened in the Russian wiki has nothing to do with en:wiki, it is a completely different project. Plus, I'm not banned there anymore, and back to normal editing. I can name editors who are permanently banned in other wikis, but edit here, and vice versa, and don't remember anyone ever being punished in en:wiki for misconduct in other wikis. As for 1 year revert limitation in en:wiki 4 years ago, it was imposed on all active editors in AA articles at the time, I never violated it, and it is long over for everyone. I have no history of blocks, bans, etc in en:wiki since 2007, that is for many years. I don't find my reverting to be excessive, especially comparing with 4 rvs in Caucasian Albania by the editor who filed this complaint and countless rvs by other accounts who supported him. For instance, the account of Oliveriki (talk · contribs), whose only contribution is 3 rvs in AA covered articles. And it is really strange that I'm accused of reverting extreme POV edits by the banned user Rjbronn. Also note that I was one of the main contributors to Caucasian Albania article for many years, which is obvious by look at talk and history of the article. Of course, I have that article in my watch list and follow what's going on there from time to time. I don't find this to be a good faith report. I see no diffs of any controversial edits by me, or mass edit warring across multiple articles, or anything of the kind that would require some drastic measures against me, especially blocking, as Vandorenfm requests. Of course, it is up to the admins to decide, I always abode by their decisions. Grandmaster 22:07, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
Comments by others about the request concerning <Grandmaster>
- I support Grandmaster in this case as Vandorenfm is most noticeable for adding ONLY Armenian based references in disputed articles, then bragging about how people are against him. Enough to check his contributions.--NovaSkola (talk) 21:28, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
- Please note that your statement "adding ONLY Armenian based references in disputed articles" is factually untrue in its entirety. Vandorenfm (talk) 21:34, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
Result concerning Grandmaster
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.
- I did close this as inactionable because the arbitration remedies it was being alleged had been violated were not named. I presume the decision in question is the AA2 discretionary sanctions: Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Armenia-Azerbaijan 2#Amended Remedies and Enforcement. AGK [•] 17:18, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
Grandmaster (resubmitted due to technical omission, see previous request for info)
Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Request concerning Grandmaster
- User requesting enforcement
- Vandorenfm (talk) 20:48, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- Grandmaster (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Sanction or remedy that this user violated
- Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Armenia-Azerbaijan 2#Amended Remedies and Enforcement
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- [157] Unexplained accusations of POV accompanied by revert
- [158] Unexplained accusations of POV accompanied by revert
- [159] Removed an entire section in an article, repeating action of a user who was banned for that very set of actions; possibly “sneaky vandalism” as described in Types of Vandalism
- [160] Removed an entire section in an article, repeating action of a user who was banned for that very set of actions; possibly “sneaky vandalism” as described in Types of Vandalism
- [161] Accompanied his removal of an entire section in article by rude commentary featuring unfounded accusations of propaganda
- [162] Pressed accusations of sock puppetry despite documented evidence to the contrary
- Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)
- > Warning by Vandorenfm (talk · contribs)
- Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction)
- block
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
- The case concerns User:Grandmaster, who was recently banned from editing Russian wiki for 6 months, with subsequent topic ban for another 6 months when the first ban expires this year. Admins of Russian wiki identified User:Grandmaster as a mastermind behind a virtual organization in which he coordinated actions of a dozen of Azerbaijani editors to edit multiple articles in Azerbaijani/Armenian topic area [163].
There is some evidence that User:Grandmaster may similarly be part of such virtual organization in English wiki. Here User:Quantum666 posted a message to Grandmaster under "Shusha/Shushi" seeking his involvement [164]. User:Quantum666 was part of the Russian wiki cabal that Grandmaster allegedly managed, and was indefinitely banned by Russian admins [165].
User:Twilight Chill, also known as User: Brandmeister was User:Grandmaster’s yet another alleged partner in the cabal in Russian wiki, and was banned for such involvement [166]. User:Grandmaster replaced User:Twilight Chill in edit warring and removal of an entire chapter in the article Caucasian Albania when User:Twilight Chill got topic-banned in English wiki for one year for his unexplained reverts. Grandmaster’s unreserved decision to support User:Twilight Chill’s actions in Caucasian Albania and his most recent comment on this page where he expressly volunteered to resubmit the banned User:Twilight Chill’s request [167] may represent evidence that both are part of such organization in English wiki as well. User: Twilight Chill aka Brandmeister has been banned from editing any topics related to Armenia/Azerbaijan in Russian wiki due the cabal case enforcement [168].
User:Twilight Chill’s and, hence indirectly, Grandmaster’s actions, were censured by the sysop/admin User:John Vandenberg who wrote to User: Twilight Chill: “Twilight Chill, wrt your NPOV concerns, edit warring and removal of entire sections isn't appropriate. Historical revisionism is relevant to Caucasian Albania” [169].
In violation of AA2#Category:Wikipedia_sockpuppeteers [170], Grandmaster posted baseless accusations of sockpuppetry [171], disregarding the fact that several times such connection has already been declined by sockpuppetry investigations [172], [173], [174].
In the past Grandmaster was subjected to the following restrictions regarding reverts:
- Grandmaster has "been placed on civility supervision, supervised editing, and revert limitation" [175], as per Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Armenia-Azerbaijan 2
- Revert parole [176]
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
- The requesting user is asked to notify the user against whom this request is directed of it, and then to replace this text with a diff of that notification. The request will normally not be processed otherwise.
Discussion concerning Grandmaster
Statement by Grandmaster
Comments by others about the request concerning Grandmaster
Result concerning Grandmaster
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.