Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Airports

EZE-SCL-JFK

Can anyone please persuade this user that LAN Airlines operates the Buenos Aires-Ezeiza–New York-JFK route via Santiago? S(he) keeps reverting, erroneously arguing the flight doesn't exist. I'm already over my 3RR. Thanks.--Jetstreamer (talk) 01:55, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

London Southend Airport

How do we list this airport as a destination? Snoozlepet (talk) 05:56, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

London-Southend? Gertjan R 08:37, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

We already have London-Heathrow, London-Gatwick, and London-Stansted. Hence, London-Southend.--Jetstreamer (talk) 10:32, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

I am gaining a consensus on this matter at the last thread below on how to list it. Apparently many people disagree with "London-Southend". Please put additional thoughts on the last thread of this discussion. Snoozlepet (talk) 04:11, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

NARA on-wiki ExtravaSCANza participation

Please see User:The ed17/NARA to brainstorm ideas and a structure on how we can help make the National Archives ExtravaSCANza a success, in the hope that such events will continue in the future. Ed ^{[talk] [majestic titan]} 10:07, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

Listing of London Southend Airport as a destination: Consensus Needed!!!!!

I am now gaining a consensus on how to list Southend Airport as a destination in airport articles since it is causing many disputes and edit warrings on various airport articles. Please write down either "London-Southend" or "Southend-on-Sea" and don't forget to sign your name after your choices. Thanks! Snoozlepet (talk) 04:09, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

• "London-Southend", definitely, to parallel "London-Gatwick", "London-Heathrow", etc. The phrase "Southend-on-Sea" is not even used in the London Southend Airport article except in a category name. Using Southend-on-Sea in the airport destination lists would be no more useful than listing Grapevine or Paradise or Hebron instead of Dallas/Fort Worth, Las Vegas, or Cincinnati/Northern Kentucky. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 07:06, 1 January 2012 (UTC)
• Wanting to repeat the "London Manston" farce? It was always Southend, and that has always worked. I can't see the need to add "-on-Sea" either. Jan olieslagers (talk) 10:11, 1 January 2012 (UTC)
• London-Southend: airport is called London Southend Airport and serves London. Gertjan R 09:36, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
• "London Southend", because that's what sources prefer. This is an encyclopædia; our first duty is to reflect real-world usage rather than changing names to fit our own internal conventions. (For example [1] [2] [3] - I would be happy to change to a different name if it can be shown that good sources prefer a different name.) bobrayner (talk) 09:48, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
• Southend should suffice, and London Southend if the "London" qualification is absolutely necessary (this may vary from list to list). As factually incorrect the "London" bit of London Southend may be, the airport's operators do use "London Southend" as their official name, as do airlines flying into it. Deryck C. 13:46, 7 January 2012 (UTC)
• London-Southend.--Jetstreamer (talk) 14:48, 7 January 2012 (UTC)
• The airport was Southend Municipal from 1947, and only rebranded London Southend in 1993. The NATS AIP listing still has "Southend". HkCaGu (talk) 07:04, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
• London-Southend: airport is called London Southend Airport and serves London. It has been operating as London Southend Airport since 1993 and has good industry recognition as that. Airlines use 'London Southend', for passengers it describes the expected main market, and it has direct rail service linking with London. The CAA itself (industry regulator) have it listed as a London Airport for economic reporting, and have done since the 1950's - this is because they recognise it's market is inextricably linked with London itself.Thames Gateway (talk) 23:23, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
• I don't see a problem with London-Southend: it's certainly much more plausible as a "London" airport than Oxford or Manston--it's around the same distance from Central London as Stansted is, and has a direct rail connection. Also, "London Southend" is how Easyjet are referring to it, and as they will shortly become the dominant carrier at Southend, this will likely become the WP:COMMONNAME. --RFBailey (talk) 22:55, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
• Agreed, it should be London Southend, just as London Stansted and London Luton. Oxford and Manston are incomparable. — Preceding unsigned comment added by CFGEGMC (talk • contribs) 17:31, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

Aircraft carriers

FYI, a discussion on aircraft carriers is currently occurring at WT:AVIATION. You may be interested.

76.65.128.132 (talk) 10:43, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

Cikgu Jasmin Airways

Just FYI, an IP editor has added this alleged airline to 18 airports; see http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ASearch&search=Cikgu+Jasmin+Airways. Goggle suggests NO such airline exists. [4] 39 Ghits! Regards, 220 of ^Borg 13:27, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

I'd say remove it as this pretty clearly fails WP:V. -- Hawaiian717 (talk) 16:54, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

As I was going through trying to clean up the mess, I noticed a claim that Cikgu Jasmin Airways was formerly Miwon Airways, and Cikgu Besar Airways was formerly Kencana Airways. However, neither of the previous names have Wikipedia articles either, so that doesn't help their credibility. -- Hawaiian717 (talk) 20:44, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for that Hawaiian717, and others who reverted. I rechecked and reverted a few that got missed. I rolled-back to September 2011 at Rafha Domestic Airport where the editor changed the infobox to read "Dabur Honitus Arabia International Airport", which had exactly one hit on Google, from WP. And if you Google "Dabur Honitus", you get a cough syrup! Don't know what to make of it. - 220 of ^Borg 14:31, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

At Abha Regional Airport they changed the infobox title to Al-Manas International Airport. A change made after they were warned to give sources and asked to give edit summaries, which they have again not done. I have again reverted.

* I just checked again and they have again added "Cikgu Jasmin Airways" [5], 9 instances today from 4 yesterday, (in about 8 hours) - 220 of ^Borg 22:59, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

I think I have reverted all instances now. This edit here on 11 January to Irkut MS-21 (a proposed series of twin-engine Russian jet airliners) is particularly revealing. The source at flightglobal.com used as a 'reference' for Cikgu Jasmin Airways ordering this aircraft.makes no mention of that alleged airline at all. And here changing AlMasria Universal Airlines to Mei Mei Airlines, which I am unable to verify as existing, except where it appears on Wikipedia! (7 instances here). This certainly calls into question all edits by this editor, not just the unverifiable airlines. Has this editor made any useful contributions? Should we revert on sight? - 220 of ^Borg 01:24, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

I have left a final note on 78.101.101.192 (talk · contribs)s talk page here to try and get their attention. Unfortunately I didn't get a single comment at WP:AN/I, before it was archived! I will likely un-archive my post there if this situation continues. FYI the same editor appears to have been 78.101.67.111 (talk · contribs) , and 78.100.184.174 (talk · contribs) previously. All IPs 'Geolocate' to the same place and ISP. :-/ 220 of ^Borg 06:34, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

I'm seeing edits following the same pattern coming from 89.211.240.233 (talk · contribs). -- Hawaiian717 (talk) 16:54, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

I have removed the Cikgu Jasmin Airways and Cikgu Besar Airways from Gurayat Domestic Airport along with all the other somewhat fantastical notions of current and future operations. Also removed the |United Airlines|Al Arabiya Cargo services to Doha, Jakarta, Damascus. Same process at Qassim Regional Airport, also full of fantasy airlines and destinations, also undid the vandal work on the infobox. Same again at Rafha Domestic Airport. -- Felix (talk) 17:09, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

I noticed that too, that the editor is linking "Al Arabiya Airlines" to United Airlines, the United States-based carrier. I'm taking a revert on sight approach. -- Hawaiian717 (talk) 17:11, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

Multiple IPs being used and it goes back a fair way into the histories in some articles. -- Felix (talk) 20:01, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

Felix, you removed (correctly) where the editor changed General Authority of Civil Aviation to Tadika Mesra Aviation on Qassim Regional Airport. I Googled 'Tadika Mesra Aviation' [6] and found it on the French Wikipedia. I though we had an inter-wiki vandal, but the fr:Qassim Regional Airport, fr:Tabuk Regional Airport and other pages on fr:WP are new pages. Unfortunately the creator has apparently based theirs on the vandalised version of the en:WP pages. I will attempt to advise them of the problem. - 220 of ^Borg 03:19, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

Yes, as some of the much earlier edits have been sitting in the system for a while they have also trickled down into the content of the many aviation sites that mirror WP info. I am not surprised if some of them have been inadvertently mirrored in WP alt language versions as well. It appears this person started doing this a while ago and has been placing erroneous content into articles for an extended time. In the earlier edits it has sometimes been combined, or associated with some quite normal appearing corrective edits. Some of those earlier contributions were queried or corrected by other editors, many apparently got through and several IPs have been used with similar characteristic pattern and content editing in the same time frame. -- Felix (talk) 04:47, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

Not so much a 'mirror' site, they just seem to have picked some text off our pages as they are writing theirs from scratch. I have left a note at 'Utilisateur:Noel.guillet' on the French Wikipedia, telling them the the false names being added.
• We can also add 89.211.197.136 (talk · contribs) to the 'list', who appears to be the same editor (edits/ ISP & location match) and has been blocked previously in September 2011 [7] --220 of ^Borg 05:42, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

I had a reply on my talk from our French colleague who says "I will correct this mad things". - 220 of ^Borg 09:34, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

Since all of these IPs are doing the same pattern of edits, I suspect sockpuppetry is the case here. Snoozlepet (talk) 06:00, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

Not mere sockpuppetry Snoozlepet, more like an entire elaborate multi casted puppet show. -- Felix (talk) 07:18, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

Borg, I have also seen the bogus material mirrored on many sites now when I have done google searches on some of the more obscure bogus airlines and destinations. Of course as you are no doubt aware, a couple of the so-called airlines do not even exist. I have since gone back to Sanya Phoenix International Airport and dug out more apparently bogus airline/destination listings. I saw other suspicious listings doing earlier clean ups but did not have the time to painstakingly research each airline and destination. A 'tell' is an unlikely Indonesian or Singapore based operator flying into an improbable destination. I have been spotting some of them due to a familiarity with the ops of some of these airlines and my suspicions have been immediate. Other airlines I am less certain of. Any edit in the last few months by anon IPs editing in a range of middle eastern, north african and asian regions should be viewed with a very enquiring and questioning eye. I suspect there are many more as this person has been using several IPs. Some are obvious like Qantas commencing services into a regional Saudi Arabian airport, or United Airlines starting up services to a small Saudi Airlines whistle stop, however others, especially those attributed to vague 'charter' and 'seasonal' ops should also be viewed with considerable skepticism. In some cases <ref> links have been provided but lead to bogus pages, or the attributed info is not there. This idiot seems to have a fondness for routing regional Indonesian and Singapore airlines into un-scheduled Saudi and Chinese airports but they are not shy of sending some mainline international services into small regional airports as well, and using multiple IPs in an edit series to confuse the provenance of the added content. -- Felix (talk) 07:20, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

Concur, but I would suggest that any edit by any IP to an Airport (or related page) geolocating from "QATAR, AD DAWHAH, DOHA" through "QATAR TELECOM (QTEL) Q.S.C" be checked, or even just reverted on sight. These are IPs the 'Cikgu Jasmin Airways' vandal has been using, in order of use:

• 89.211.197.136 (talk · contribs)
• 78.100.184.174 (talk · contribs)
• 78.101.67.111 (talk · contribs)
• 78.101.101.192 (talk · contribs)
• 89.211.240.233 (talk · contribs)

• I suggest that as soon as they start editing again, if possible we lodge a report at WP:AI/V (Wikipedia:Administrator intervention against vandalism). Maybe a preventative block will get their attention. If they change IP then WP:SPI (Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations)

• I have also posted a note at the Wikipedia talk:Subtle Vandalism Taskforce, but it seems dormant at this time. - 220 of ^Borg 09:34, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

I have had a reply from Shadowjams (talk · contribs) of the Wikipedia:Subtle Vandalism Taskforce (WP:SVT) - 220 of ^Borg 23:50, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

Hi 220, when I did those corrective edits I overlooked checking the 'watch this article' box on most if not all of them. I only came across the silliness when patrolling the Lombok International Airport article. If there is a further outbreak of this nonsense give me a heads up and I will lend a hand if I can. Good work on the cleanups. Tiresome but necessary. I think the French editor summed it up the best. cheers -- Felix (talk) 23:47, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

Start dates (Need new Consensus)

I know it has been a while since this discussion Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Airports/Archive_10#Years_for_Start_Dates_.28Oh_my_Lord.21_Here_we_go_again.21.29 but some registered users and IPs are now removing the year for new services that is to commence between March 2012 to even as late as October 2012. Since the year is now 2012, we need a new consensus: here's 2 options: 1. Just include the year as we have suggested in the past to avoid confusion and end this foolishness or include the year for services that are to begin the following year (i.e. it is 2012 and XXX Airlines will begin service to Y in 2013) and remove the year once that year begins. I know that since that discussion has ended, the consensus was to always include the year no matter what. Snoozlepet (talk) 16:47, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

Always include the year. It wasn't that long ago (August 2011) that we made the decision to move to always including the years. I'd assume good faith, and gently point the editors to the discussion as they may not be aware that consensus changed and that the year should be included. -- Hawaiian717 (talk) 16:58, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

Just to let you know, given that this very discussion at WP:AIRLINES did not succeed, I'm using the same criteria adopted here for airline destinations articles. Regarding the proposal above, I suggest sticking to the first choice, i.e. including the year no matter how close is the date of beginning/closure of services.--Jetstreamer (talk) 17:03, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

Agree. HkCaGu (talk) 18:28, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

However, a whole bunch of people will say no consensus was reached in that discussion and will' continue to not include the year just as a user did with my edit here at the Malpensa Airport article:[8]. 15:24, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

I suspect anyone who disagrees with whatever decision was reached will always claim that consensus was never reached, since they don't agree. However, there are two definitions of consensus, one clearly based on a majority, while the other suggests total agreement. WP:CON uses the first. If people can't accept that, remember WP:3RR. -- Hawaiian717 (talk) 15:43, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

Yes, but I believe we have to state somewhere within the project that the whole date will be implemented, once and for all, just in case this discussion arises again in the future. The matter is the way we implement this, since voting is not permitted.--Jetstreamer (talk) 15:55, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

At WP:AIRPORT-CONTENT we have examples that don't match the text instructions. I'll go fix that. HkCaGu (talk) 16:09, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

Hello everyone. I am the dreaded user who always disagrees with everyone and in this case removed the year dates. As far as I could see in the discussion I was linked to at MXP airport, there was no consensus reached. Then apart from that I don't see the point of including the date because:

• It is unnecessary - only if the destination starts in a year and a day or more is the year unclear.
• It is usually not included, so for consistency we should keep it that way.

Regards, Speed74 (talk) 19:32, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

I do not want to repeat our arguments again, but looks like you haven't even read them. HkCaGu (talk) 19:40, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

The argument I read was that years might be confusing because pages may not have been updated, however this would only apply to destinations starting in a few days less than a year from now, not for destinations starting in March or October 2012, and in those cases editors should see in the history that it was a recent edit (otherwise the year would have been added). Speed74 (talk) 19:45, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

You're wrong because that is not my four years of experience. We did not want to argue more than once every year whether the cut-off should be 3 months or 6 months or 9 months or 12 months. Last August, everyone who participated in the discussion agreed, eventually. HkCaGu (talk) 19:50, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

Why am I "wrong" exactly? The consensus used to be 13 months and remained as such for a long time. Now that years are sometimes included there is inconsistency, even within articles. Speed74 (talk) 20:54, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

Simply put, the MoS as I recall does not require years if the year is clear from the context. Adding the year when it is not required is unnecessary and it can upset some editors and add no value. I did not comment on the last discussion. But this discussion points out the problems with changing from the recommendation in the MoS. If you don't need the year, don't add it! If someone decides to remove the year, let them and don't revert. End of problem and no confusion. Vegaswikian (talk) 23:07, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

The problem with not including a year is that it is not easy to tell if, say, "19 June" is in the past or the future. Anyone who reads Wikipedia regularly knows not to trust absolutely that a particular page has been properly updated recently---but they shouldn't need to go trudging through the page history to find this out. Also, we should not expect a casual reader to be familiar with the ins and outs of a WikiProject's policies (say, about some arbitrary cut-off date).

In the case of larger airports (e.g. Heathrow, LAX, JFK, Pearson), which are watched by a lot of people and updated frequently, this shouldn't be a problem. The problem is with smaller, out-of-the-way places or in relatively obscure locations (such as countries far, far away from where most WP editors reside)--one can't always know when the page was last updated.

Speed74's argument "It is unnecessary - only if the destination starts in a year and a day or more is the year unclear" only works if pages are always kept up-to-date. We all know that this is not always the case.

Regarding what the MoS says: perhaps Vegaswikian could indicate which section of the MoS contains this recommendation. However, how is it "clear from the context" which year is being referred to if all that is written is an isolated "[starts 19 June]"? --RFBailey (talk) 02:22, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

WP:DATESNO. Vegaswikian (talk) 03:02, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

...which states: "Yearless dates (5 March, March 5) are inappropriate unless the year is obvious from the context." My earlier point stands. --RFBailey (talk) 04:52, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

Exactly since if there is no year specified the context of starting and stopping says it is within 12 months hence the context is clear. As I said above there is a simple solution. Of course one can choose the lets go around in circles approach. Vegaswikian (talk) 06:32, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

You're missing my point: if the article is clearly up-to-date, then "19 June" most likely means the forthcoming one. But, as I have already stated, when reading an article (particularly if it's about a relatively obscure airport), the reader can't be certain that didn't actually mean "19 June 2009" and that the article (or at least the destinations list) hasn't been updated for three years. By including years as a matter of course, it avoids this potential ambiguity.

WikiProject members and regular editors should never lose sight of the fact that we're writing for the general public, not ourselves: what might be clear to us is not necessarily clear to the reader. --RFBailey (talk) 06:54, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

• We should always include the year. A yearless date will not always be clear to readers, even if the person who added it is thoroughly familiar with their preferred interpretation of wikipedia's date conventions. Content can often go out of date, too. If an editor says "1 June" in an edit today, is a reader supposed to interpret that as June 2011 or June 2012? What about when the text is still standing a year from now? Two years? Are readers supposed to now believe that the date (in reality long since past) is actually in 2013 or 2014? The year is not clear from the context. If you were writing about the 2012 Olympics or the Hundred Days, then dates in the body of the article are clear from the context; if you were writing some prose in chronological order and you say "In March 1980..." then later "In June..." it's reasonable for readers to infer that it's June 1980. However, that's certainly not the case for the ebb and flow of airline services - various services have been starting and stopping each year for many decades and will continue to do so in future, and the setting does not give enough background information for readers to reliably fill in the gaps, so we should tell readers which year. bobrayner (talk) 10:52, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
  • So, which is the consensus then? Do we keep dates in the long format, i.e. including year?--Jetstreamer (talk) 14:36, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

It's a complicated matter. For now we have created a mix of year-including and yearless dates, with no clear rule. It may have been best to leave the 13-month limit originally. However it does seem that most editors don't mind including the year. It will be difficult to make a rule for all articles, so we may simply have to leave it as an "include if you want to", with no one allowed to change from year to no-year or vice-versa once the date has been written, unless the date is effectively a year and a day or more away. It does create unevenness, but I don't see another solution. Speed74 (talk) 19:00, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

No there is nothing complicated about it. WP:DATESNO does state that yearless dates are basically inappropriate. Life CAN be simple, you just have to let it be. Jan olieslagers (talk) 19:14, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

I don't think there's anything complicated either. The reason we have a mix is that not all old listings have been updated to the new consensus, and some editors aren't aware of the change. Thus, all new edits should include the year. Feel free to add the year to existing entries. If you see an editor adding new entries without the year, add the year and post a note on their talk page pointing to the updated guideline. -- Hawaiian717 (talk) 22:44, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

Exactly---if years are included, then there is no ambiguity. All I can conclude from Speed74's comment is that some editors want to make things complicated! --RFBailey (talk) 00:48, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

But the problem is that some editors who want to make things complicated will state in the edit summary "No consensus reached" or "Year unnecessary unless start date is one year or less from the current date per WP:AIRPORTS guidelines". Some airport pages have sections or sentences mentioning important new routes, airlines, and services at the airport in prose, those must include the year because those service may happen years ago. Snoozlepet (talk) 02:51, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

(unindent) It does not help that Wikipedia:WikiProject_Aviation/Style_guide#Airports_2 and Wikipedia:WikiProject_Aviation/Style_guide/Layout_(Airports) give conflicting advice on what to do. The former says not to include the year (and has the bizarre 13-month rule), while the latter specifically states that the year should be included.

Given that the majority view here (as well as in the August 2011 discussion), and the one which is backed up by credible arguments, is that years should be included in dates given in destination lists, it seems that the former guideline should be modified. It's unfortunate that after the last debate that these conflicting guidelines arose. --RFBailey (talk) 06:40, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

I updated the former guideline, to reflect consensus here. Guidelines aren't set in stone; they're a product of discussions between editors... bobrayner (talk) 01:57, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

Why does WikiProject Aviation have two different style guide pages with so much overlap? bobrayner (talk) 02:02, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

I have no idea--having net been involved in this project up until recently--but I suspect it's probably best described as "historical reasons". That said, it shouldn't be a problem provided the two sets of guidelines don't give conflicting instructions--although that's exactly what happened here. --RFBailey (talk) 04:50, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

Massive vandalism from the Bangladesh Airport Vandal

I've just cleaned up many airports vandalized by a roaming IP vandal from Bangladesh, mostly in the 58.97 range. Please everybody watch out for these suddenly massively added destinations, like the many many that the quiet capital of Bhutan—Paro Airport—suddenly serves. HkCaGu (talk) 19:21, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

Noticed a lot of this going on lately, IP 69.245.39.156 was blocked for this. They had hit Nashville International Airport a lot, adding flights all over the place. It's a busy airport, but they were sticking in flights to Paris, etc., that were completely nonexistent. nf utvol (talk) 21:38, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

That IP was also adding mainline operations which some of those carriers do not (only AA, DL, and US have both express and mainline flights out of BNA). Snoozlepet (talk) 23:56, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

After the Philippines, Qatar, Bangladesh and Iberia destination vandals, now a Canada vandal!

See User talk:Markg208. Are we under attack? HkCaGu (talk) 08:12, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

I have already reported that user to WP:AIV and he was blocked indefinitely for a vandalism-only account. He may come back as a different IP or as a different name....keep an eye out for him. Snoozlepet (talk) 23:54, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

Airlines and Destinations tables

I'm the editor cited in this discussion. Moved comments to this page.

From User talk:Snoozlepet#Airport Links:

Hi, Happy New Year! I saw a user edited something on ATL airport (I undid it) because it was not standard airport page format but I think it is very interesting and I think we might want to change it. I think we should have a vote like we did on the United/Continental integration but here is an example.... Tell me what you think, I know it looks weird at first but it might be found helpful for people searching on wikipedia. Thanks! Cali4529 (talk) 20:55, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

Airlines	Destinations	Concourse
Air Canada Express operated by Jazz Air	Toronto-Pearson	D
Air France	Paris-Charles de Gaulle	E
AirTran Airways	Akron/Canton, Aruba, Atlantic City [ends January 6, 2012], Baltimore, Bloomington/Normal [ends June 3, 2012], Boston, Branson, Buffalo, Cancún, Charlotte, Chicago-Midway, Columbus (OH), Dayton, Denver, Detroit, Flint, Fort Lauderdale, Fort Myers, Houston-Hobby, Indianapolis, Jacksonville (FL), Kansas City, Las Vegas, Los Angeles, Memphis, Milwaukee, Minneapolis/St. Paul, Montego Bay, Nassau, New Orleans, New York-LaGuardia, Newport News [ends March 9, 2012], Orlando, Pensacola, Philadelphia, Phoenix, Pittsburgh, Punta Cana, Raleigh/Durham, Richmond, Rochester (NY), St. Louis, San Antonio, San Francisco, San Juan, Sarasota/Bradenton, Seattle/Tacoma, Tampa, Washington-Dulles [ends June 3, 2012], Washington-National, West Palm Beach, White Plains, Wichita Seasonal: Allentown/Bethlehem, Bermuda, Harrisburg, Portland (ME)	C, D
Alaska Airlines	Seattle/Tacoma	B
American Airlines	Dallas/Fort Worth, Miami	T
American Eagle	Chicago-O'Hare, Miami, New York-LaGuardia	T
British Airways	London-Heathrow	E

From User talk:Cali4529/Archive 1#AIrport Links:

Per WP:AIRPORTS page content and past discussion, we don't wikilink airports/destinations. However, it needs to be discussed first at the project talk page before such changes are made. Snoozlepet (talk) 02:49, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

This edit visually preserves the perfectly fine destination format you've been using, with the added effect of wikilinking to the relevant articles, in the manner Wikipedia articles are generally constructed. Comments? Thanks. --Chaswmsday (talk) 20:54, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

I suspect the original reason for the policy was to reduce overlinking. However, I've frequently found it irritating that, upon seeing a destination in an airport article, I have to take a roundabout route to read an article about it (i.e. go to the airline article, then the airline destination article, to find a link there). I don't see a problem with Chaswmsday's suggestion--although I 'm glad that it's being discussed here first! --RFBailey (talk) 04:52, 18 January 2012 (UTC)

I like this format too as it provides easy access to related articles rather than taking a detour, and it also highlights dates which tend to get lost in the unlinked style. 119.155.40.154 (talk) 13:57, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

I agree with Cali4529 and the anon ip 119.155.40.154. It has always struck me as odd that we don't do it and found the lack of a quick click-through to be irksome at times. I do see a small problem with it though. If some editors link and others don't then there will be a lot of catch up work tidying up behind alterations and new additions to avoid having a multi-coloured table. Also if there is a destination without an article it could get a bit untidy looking. The clear issue is sweeping aside the overlinking policy when applied to the tables otherwise it will get a bit odd looking with lots of blue and black mixed up throughout the destinations. If one destination is linked then they all need to be, and any repeats of that destination attributed to other carriers. -- Felix (talk) 18:36, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

All arguments above sound good, but I'm afraid WP:OVERLINK applies to all Wikipedia as a Manual of Style, and the project cannot overrule that.--Jetstreamer (talk) 19:20, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

Just want to chime in as well. I'm worrying also about the overlinking issue and agree that if they're linked, they ALL need to be linked. We can't possibly chase down what has already appeared/linked above and what hasn't. (Just imagine if links cannot be repeated, how much work it would be merging a certain "C" airline into a "U" airline like earlier last month.)

Also, if the overlinking concern can be overcome, we will need to build a wikicode template page containing a listing of all airports to relief workload. One good thing to come out of this--the new page could serve as a hub for the standardization of city names and airport disambiguations. HkCaGu (talk) 19:55, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

Isn't this the purpose of {{Airline destinations}}? Vegaswikian (talk) 23:29, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

(unindent) Quoting WP:OVERLINK: "Generally, a link should appear only once in an article, but if helpful for readers, links may be repeated in infoboxes, tables, image captions, footnotes, and at the first occurrence after the lead." That suggests to me that linking destinations for each airline (including repeats) would not violate the policy. The idea of the overlinking policy is to avoid having extraneous links in written prose---not to make navigation difficult. Also, it simply does not make sense to not link a destination next to each airline that serves it, particularly in the case of routes served by multiple carriers. For instance, in the Heathrow article, if you're reading the list of destinations for United and want to go to the article about LAX, you'd have to hunt through the list to first the alphabetically-first airline operating that route, which may be somewhat surprising (it's Air New Zealand). (I've seen tables which do this and they're rather annoying!) --RFBailey (talk) 02:23, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

In the beginning, destinations were not in tables, so since now we use tables, we can get around overlinking. HkCaGu (talk) 10:16, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

Just to add another 3 cents, in addition to the points already mentioned, because this table is re-sortable, there isn't really a fixed "first instance" for any given wikilink within it. Plus of course WP:MOS/Linking is a guideline which states, "use common sense in applying it; it will have occasional exceptions", not a policy. --Chaswmsday (talk) 12:13, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

• I think it's a good idea to add links to airports in these tables, in most cases (surely we can use common sense). If we deliberately unlink them all then we're going out of our way to make life harder for readers. bobrayner (talk) 14:54, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Because no comments had been made here for a few days, I believed that a consensus had developed around this issue. Given that, I began modifying Hartsfield–Jackson Atlanta International Airport to wikilink the destinations. When I was almost finished, Cali4529 reverted all of my edits, commenting only "no" on the reverts.

Cali4529 additionally blanked the whole discussion here, with the comment "My ideas were talk and are not to be placed here", which I take to mean an objection to my moving of his/her initial comments to this talk page. Cali4529 then sent a spurious block threat to my User Talk page: "If you add the airport links to all of the cities on any airport page again you will be blocked. There is no agreement made and again I WILL NOT tolerate any vandalism as you made, you will be blocked. Cali4529 (talk) 21:17, 30 January 2012 (UTC)".

I would appreciate any assistance in resolving this matter. Thanks. --Chaswmsday (talk) 21:39, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

I was talking to User:Snoozlepet and put this in, this is my idea and my thoughts and it is not right to have them here. Anyway I am highly against it it looks stupid and is not necessary. For years we have had no problem, leave it that way. I was talking on his user page. Not this page. Please remove this. Cali4529 (talk) 22:35, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

You're a bit confused, sorry to say. There are no “copyrights” for such ideas here in Wikipedia, and once you share them with the community they're public. To this respect, you may read If you do not want your writing to be edited and redistributed at will, then do not submit it here below the "Save page" button. Those words speak for themselves. Just one more thing. Blanking contents, such as the one you did in this very talk page, is not permitted, and you may get blocked for that, let alone if the contents were not introduced by you but by other users. Please bear in mind that accusing any other user of vandalising pages is very serious stuff, unless you have proofs to support your claims.--Jetstreamer (talk) 22:59, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

Isn't this page the "project talk page"? I moved the first comments here, the appropriate place to discuss changes to this project, as a springboard for further discussion. I'm not sure what you're finding offensive about any of the comments here. I'm also confused about your stance. Back on January 1, you seemed interested in the idea of wikilinking destinations. Now you seem diametrically opposed. But instead of reverting unilaterally, you should let the consensus work itself out.

Also, by reverting my edits, you're also losing some "citation needed" tags I added in the course of editing. I assume everyone in this project wants the destination tables to be accurate, and I couldn't verify some of the entries at Atlanta. --Chaswmsday (talk) 22:57, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

I would wait and let some other editors that have not yet engage in this discussion (like myself) make some comments before making changes. I think that linking destinations is in this new table format is fine for me. However, for airlines that operate from 2 different areas of the airport, do we really need to link the airline twice. Same goes for the destinations, if we are going to link them, if more than one carrier fly to the same city, should we really link all of them. It will take us to the same article. Snoozlepet (talk) 23:06, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

The third opinion request does not apply here, as there are more than two editors involved. Also, if you want to get a third opinion for the future, you should place an appropriate request here. The template placed at the top of this section does not work for itself.--Jetstreamer (talk) 23:01, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

I've never done a "3o" before. (I've come from the world of "fair use" disputes, where things go straight to AN/I, sockpuppets, etc.) I'm not sure how kinder/gentler dispute resolution is supposed to work. Since I've already created the "third opinion" entry, do I need to go remove it, or just the template here?? Thanks. --Chaswmsday (talk) 23:11, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

OK, I see Jetstreamer has removed it from WP:3O. Now what do we do?...--Chaswmsday (talk) 23:14, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you meant by "operate from 2 different areas of the airport", Snoozlepet. Yeah, I think for some of the reasons listed upthread, it would be beneficial to wikilink each of the destination entries. Once an airport article is "done", it should be easy to maintain the format... :) --Chaswmsday (talk) 23:22, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

@Chaswmsday, What i meant was an airline operating from 2 or more concourses or terminals at an airport. Many airport articles, most airlines are listed seperate because check-in and departing gates for that airline to those destinations may be located in a different terminals and only the first airline name is wikilinked. Also the larger airports have a dedicated terminal or concourse strictly for international flights. I was asking if the airline is listed twice, does it really need to be linked twice? I agree with all of the reasons above. If a reader is looking at the destinations, it may be helpful to them which airport they fly to. Snoozlepet (talk) 23:34, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

There is nothing to depute, It is my talk with User:Snoozlepet and is no one else's business. Cali4529 (talk) 23:39, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

How to list Dubai in airport articles?

Now that it has two airports, with Al Maktoum catering cargo only at present, should the cargo section of airport articles listing flights from Dubai show Dubai-International and Dubai-Al Maktoum as and where required? 119.155.40.154 (talk) 13:52, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

Yes, the current Dubai Airport should be listed as Dubai-International while the airport serving only cargo should be listed as Dubai-Al Maktoum (the new airport will have passenger operations soon) so Dubai needs disambiguation. However, we have a lot of cities that have multiple airports but are not disambiguated (i.e. Nairobi, Johannesburg, Tel Aviv, etc.) Snoozlepet (talk) 20:32, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

Montreal-Trudeau seems an appropriate comparison: these days, it's just about the only airport with passenger services, with Mirabel restricted to cargo. But we list "Montreal-Trudeau" in destination lists. --RFBailey (talk) 02:43, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

Same goes for Dubai, the current airport is the only airport with passenger services while Al Maktoum is cargo only. The question is that should Dubai needs to be disambiguated if we did the same for Montreal? Snoozlepet (talk) 04:14, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

I don't think we should disambiguate because there is a cargo-only airport. Different categories (passenger, cargo, pet, seaplane, etc.) should be counted separately. HkCaGu (talk) 10:12, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

Cargo flights also operate from Dubai International not just Al Maktoum. 119.155.33.19 (talk) 02:55, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

LOT Polish Airlines destinations

Can anyone provide a source specifically stating that LOT is beginning or resuming flights to Beijing on May 30, 2012? I have tagged a "citation needed" until someone can provide a reference stating it will begin flights to PEK on 30 May 2012. Also, on the Warsaw Airport page, a user is adding "planned" destinations that are to begin in 2013. Can someone please take a look at that page? Thanks! Snoozlepet (talk) 20:41, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

Accidents/Incidents

As a WP user I noted the strange list of accidents at Santos Dumont Airport and raised a query on its talk page. Since then, I found some relevant discussion here and here But perhaps these remain ambiguous by setting out notability criteria for accidents themselves, but without clear guidance on when they should be included in airport articles.

I also found that many Brazilian airport articles (all?) have adopted the same approach, including many accidents that have nothing to do with the airport at all, took place far away, sometimes at other airports or even in other countries. Just sampling a few others showed:

London Heathrow and Paris Orly: only accidents at/near airport included.

Dallas-Fort Worth: main list as at Heathrow, then a separate list for "DFW connected" flights.

Miami International: follows the Brazilian pattern.

WP Airports editors might want to discuss? Davidships (talk) 02:08, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

Paralleling WP:AIRLINES guidelines, only flights that originated in the airport or had it as a destination/stopover, plus any hijacking that ended up in the airport off the flight plan, warrants inclusion, provided that there were fatalities and/or hull-losses, or changes in procedures. I recently expanded the Accidents/incidents section at Ellinikon International Airport, and actually adopted that criteria. Non-fatal events that didn't carry with the hull-loss of the aircraft involved weren't included at all. You may also want to take a look at the same section at Ministro Pistarini International Airport, also created by me some time ago.--Jetstreamer (talk) 02:18, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

You would normally expect that an accident section for an airport was for accidents at that airport or for aircraft arriving or departing anything else would not really be relevant. An aircraft that originated at the airport then crashed hundreds of miles away or one that was on its way but never made it is not really relevant to the airport. It was not put in WP:AIRCRASH perhaps because we assumed that the use of the airport accident section for accidents at the airport was obvious! MilborneOne (talk) 12:35, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

Peshawar International Airport

The airport has been renamed as Bacha Khan International Airport, article updated, signage at airport carries the new name, change article title if need be. 119.155.33.19 (talk) 02:48, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

Someone with a personal view is not accepting this change and is constantly reverting the edits made. 119.155.33.19 (talk) 18:01, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

I left a message on the user discussion page. Slasher-fun (talk) 18:16, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

Page already renamed. There are sources provided on the article's talk page reflecting the name change. Snoozlepet (talk) 19:38, 30 January 2012 (UTC)