Talk:Korean cuisine

Instant Noodles

Wow, it's changed a lot since a handful of us started this article. I was going through and noticed that the adoption of instant noodles was placed within the Japanese occupation. The occupation ended in 1945, but instant noodles weren't marketed until 1958. Zenpickle (talk) 13:36, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

“ Western food began emerging into the Korean diet, such as white bread and commercially produced staples such as instant noodles began to appear as well. The Japanese colonial period ended after the defeat of Japan during World War II ”

The information was inserted by Tanner-Christopher[1] based on an academic book authored by Pettid. I think the author refers to ready-made noodles like somen. But instant noodle only confines instant ramen/ramyeon, I will remove the "instant noodle".--Caspian blue 15:29, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

The Instant noodles article has a reference [2] showing the Republic of Korea as the sixth largest consumer of instant noodles. Perhaps this does belong in the article? jmcw (talk) 12:23, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

<G>And what about a mention of "Orion Choco Pie"? jmcw (talk) 12:43, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

[3]

“ The marshmallow-filled chocolate snack is not only a favorite of children, but also of the country’s military, as they are supplied with the snack after their first week of basic training, which adds to its symbolic image and campaign of “jeong” (compassion, love for another). ”

New Link?

What follows is a link to a video concerning South Korean street food and deserts. Would it be possible to add this to the page? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IunpUV14xLk Blongbotham (talk) 23:22, 16 March 2010 (UTC)blongbotham, Korean International School, Journalism

Comment

Read it, then fix it. Why is this crap semi-protected? That's two blatant errors and I'm only skimming!

Those in the lower economic levels were likely to only enjoy a single bowl of white rice each year. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jacobsjd (talk • contribs) 23:13, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

May I suggest that you read up on WP:Civil before making any more comments, the way you phrased the comment is inappropriate. The article is protected due to several edit wars over the past few years. --Jeremy (blah blah • I did it!) 03:33, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

Racist article....

Like the angry editor above, why is this article protected? You don't own this article, neither from the content is it worth protecting. It seems there is too much of a need for stereotypical racism to placed into articles about non-white people on this American encyclopedia. In the case of this article, I am referring to the need to mention dog meat!!

Dog meat??? WTF? Is this article about the historical dietary habits of the Korean people or the modern population of South Korea? Now I cannot speak for the North, but the likely dishes being discussed here are not for common consumption on the streets of Pyongyang. So I presume the images used have all been taken in the South. Therefore to include dog meat is just pandering to the racist preconceptions of non-domiciles. I have lived in Korea for many years (my wife is Korean) and I have never, ever, seen anyone eat dog, refer to dog meat or want to eat dog meat. In fact, once when we were deciding what we should all eat in Seoul, I made (what I thought was) a joke that we should go and get gaegogi. In one instance I deeply offended my wife and all her Korean friends/colleagues.

As the article on dog meat states, "Selling dog meat has been illegal in South Korea since 1984". So the picture on this page, if it is actually real is endorsing an illegal act. Wikipedia would be therefore doing a disservice if it didn't show more illegal acts then? How about a murder, or open drug use? Furthermore, the Koreans-eating-dog-meat belief came back to the USA and Europe with the thousands of white troops that served in Korean War and were horrified when they saw starving Koreans eating whatever was available, such as dog. (The South Korean Military Museum shows starving kids going through a GI rubbish dump, and eating out of spent K-ration cans)

As this article includes dog meat, which is apparently required part of modern Korean cuisine, I also checked the Chinese Cuisine page. Guess what? No mention to eating dog meat there. Yet the Chinese remain the largest consumers of "man's best friend" in the world. See Dog_meat#China_Mainland. It is quite clear that including dog meat in such a prominent place in this article is pandering to a racist out-dated view held by non Koreans!

I also looked at the Japanese cuisine page. Shock horror! No mention that the Japanese have a penchant for consuming "Free Willy". Why is this? Every year their boats leave Nihon for their annual hunt to kill a few hundred whales. It's a key part of their culture but it's missing from the article on Japanese cuisine. Ironic, as eating whale in Japan is legal!! Whereas eating dog in the Republic of Korea is not! Hmmm, final check South African cuisine. Wow not a single mention of bush meat which is often openly sold in markets. This makes the inclusion of dog meat in this article as particularly distorted and racist.

Thought experiment: if this article is going to contain dog meat, as if it's normal food for an average Korean. Then maybe other articles should include historical, outdated facts that are given undue links to the present. For instance Germany should always be linked to the Nazis. As there are still neo nazis in the country, by association Germany is a nation with right wing extremists. Or why not reference the fact that as the Mafia originated in Italy, and there are still Mafia there, Italians have links with organised crime.

The same therefore goes for the assumption that dog meat is still "normal" and on the menu in Seoul or Pusan! And the average Korean will happily tuck into a plate of Fido! The fact that the article states dog meat is still popular "with a segment of the population" has absolutely no meaning. As I note above, seven decades ago Germany was full of Nazis, as a "segment of the population" still like Hitler does that mean is should be given its own section. (I would like to see how long that assumption would be allowed to stay!) Same goes for the Greeks, ancient Athenians slept with boys, assuming a "segment of the population" are still pedophiles in modern Greece, does that necessitate the link that it's still normally practiced in the Aegean states.

In that manner, the inclusion of dog meat on this page fails under WP:UNDUE and is a gross misrepresentation's of the reality and a distorted view of the country.

It is no doubt also a testimony to why this page is blocked and the edit wars. This stinks of WP:OWN and is wrong. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.171.23.89 (talk) 18:35, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

Many of the primary reasons the article is protected can be found in your posting, which is biased and one-sided towards the anti-inclusion camp. This has been discussed ad infinitum and we will not reopen the issue. The edit wars and petty squabbling that went on over the dog meat issue kept this article in a constant state of instability for years and we have no desire to revert back to that point. While the issue is contentious, we have found a medium point that works by presenting the issue in a NPOV manner without drawing conclusions. In order to show their is a controversy in regards to the consumption of dog meat, we have placed a link directing readers to an article that covers the conflicting points of view and controversies on the subject. Your claim that the article infers that every Korean salivates at the chance to consume the dishes is spurious at best because the section on the subject of dog meat solely discusses the dishes, the history of them and does not debate its pros or cons while simply stating that some people still enjoy its consumption. There is no undue weight on the subject and quite a few other editors agree with that as it has gone through multiple reviews and rewrites.

In regards to modern North Korean cuisine, there is very little information on the subject and what information there is is tainted by the North Korean regime's propaganda. Up until the partition of the peninsula in the 20th century, it was a single country with a shared history and culture. This shared beginning is covered in the historical information throughout the historical sections of the article.

Finally, please take the time to read up on our policy regarding civility and assumption of good faith. The way you presented your point insults the contributors and editors, myself included, that have taken a great deal of time and effort to fix all of the problems that were in the article and mediate the point to bring us to the place we have reached today. The article recently had a long and involved good article discussion, while not successful, brought the article to very well deserved point as a article on the verge of greatness. The openly hostile and berating tone you have chosen is rude and has no place in a civil discussion. --Jeremy (blah blah • I did it!) 19:55, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

There was never consensus on this. You have been rever warring everyone to force this in the article.

I finally have some free time to work on this. Please stop your abusive editing. Dog meat does not belong in the same category as pork and chicken and your insistence is based on ignorance and nothing else. Including dog in the section as you have done is akin to including squirrel meat along with beef and chicken in the American Cuisine article.

Also provide us with relevant quotations that support your position if you want it considered for the article.Melonbarmonster2 (talk) 21:28, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

Melonbarblaster, you were one of the main participants in the previous edit wars, please do not come charging back in here with the same cavalier attitude. I will not allow this to reignite. --Jeremy (blah blah • I did it!) 05:01, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

You need to heed your own advice and cease name-calling and labeling editors who have genuine disagreements with you as vandals. Go ahead and actually read civility and assumption of good faith. You are in violation of WP:OWN with your declarations of what YOU are going to allow and not allow in this article. At this point, multiple neutral editors have given detailed explanations for why dog meat doesn't belong along with beef and pork. That alone warrants opening up a discussion. Participate in a reasoned discussion rather than revert warring.Melonbarmonster2 (talk) 05:33, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

This deletion seems to be governed by WP:OTHERSTUFFDOESNTEXIST. It should be included (maybe not as heavily as it is now) but to some degree, if only because of the stigma. If more edit warring takes place I'll be forced to protect the WP:WRONGVERSION NativeForeigner ^Talk/_Contribs 05:40, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

The deletion is governed by the simple fact that it is FALSE and misleading to present dog meat along with beef, pork and vegetables as ingredients of Korean cuisine and that the provided offline reference likely does not support such a categorization. The WP:OTHERSTUFFDOESNTEXIST argument actually supports the truth in this case.Melonbarmonster2 (talk) 06:10, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

Melon, please just stop trying to force you opinion on this article. There was consensus about the subject, and that is how the article came to be as it is now. Other editors have now undid your blanking of the section, and you are rapidly approaching verge of edit warring. --Jeremy (blah blah • I did it!) 06:14, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

There was never a consensus on the article and you are the one who needs to stop forcing your unreferenced and false opinion on this article. Just provide relevant quote from the offline reference.Melonbarmonster2 (talk) 06:54, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

Yes there was, it was reached while you were blocked for edit warring on the article. Since that time the article has remained stable, and improved. The main contributor to the article, Chef Tanner, took a great deal of time dragging this article out of the edit wars and making it worthy as a subject. Caspian Blue then went on to bring it to the point of a Good Article, but was unable to do so due to time constraints. In that interim we have heard nothing from you until today when you barged in and began the warring all over again. You are just using the IP comment above to justify coming in here and rewriting the article to suit your beliefs. Two poeple is not a consensus.

Removing cited content, claiming non-existent bias and racism and all of your behaviors are a repeat of your behaviors from 2007. They are just as inappropriate now as they were then, please stop and consider what you are doing is improper and how it violates numerous policies of Wikipedia. Throwing around accusations of ownership based on my comment, which was directed at your actions and not about the content of the article, is just the tip of the iceberg of the potential damage you methods are doing

Several editors have all stated that the way you are going about this is wrong; that the section blanking is wrong, the wholesale removal or changing of cited fact is wrong and imposing a pro-Korean bias into the article is wrong. My only wish is to keep this article moving forward to featured article status, and that means keeping another edit war from breaking out. --Jeremy (blah blah • I did it!) 07:52, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

Deletion of all mention of Dog Meat

This is well-sourced material. You may edit it as you wish, but you may not delete well-sourced material because of the reason given. No article on Korean Cusine can be exahastive without mention of this aspect of it. Why not simply send the reader to the article Dog meat consumption in South Korea, or some such? Wholesale distruction of the entire section is no answer, you must come to an agreement. Chrisrus (talk) 05:50, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

The link to the Dog meat consumption in South Korea article is already there. The section is solely about the dishes. --Jeremy (blah blah • I did it!) 06:19, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

At this point multiple neutral editors have expressed dissent with this dubious claim only to have been bullied into silence by editors who have turned this article into WP:OWN.

And the section is not well sourced at all. I doubt the offline reference actually state that dog meat is comparable to beef and pork in Korean cuisine. If there is I'd like to see the portion of the offline reference that makes supports such a statement per WP:Verify.Melonbarmonster2 (talk) 06:03, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

To User:Melonbarmonster2: Not well sourced? Don't worry. I have enough sources on dog meat consumption in Korea both in English and Korean and might be able to help here once the protection expires, so that no one can make that kind of claim again. You probably know I am pretty good at finding reliable sources, don't you? Oh, and I will probably need to make sure kimchi is defined as fermented food in this article too.Hkwon (talk) 08:09, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

Gentlemen, please do not use this article as a proxy for your disputes. Please find a way to mediate your hostilities other than wikistalking and wikihounding each other. This behavior is inappropriate. --Jeremy (blah blah • I did it!) 15:06, 5 July 2010 (UTC)