Talk:Climatic Research Unit email controversy

Weart interview (cont.)

That quote by Weart from The Washington Post looks like inaccurate hyperbole. In saying that the hacking incident is "a symptom of something entirely new in the history of science" Weart forgets about the existence of Lysenkoism.Chelydramat (talk) 00:47, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

I agree that this quote is a bit over the top, particularly if the "hack" is really a "leak". If I were a rules-lawyer, I would quote WP:UNDUE to disqualify this. With dozens if not hundreds of quotes to choose from, I think we should all try to avoid the most extreme statements. Madman (talk) 04:09, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

That's not really true for this particular quote. Lysenkoism is an inapt analogy - that was an attempt by a state to control and suppress science for ideological purposes, rather as happened in Nazi Germany (where Einstein's theories were disparaged as "Jewish science") or under the George W. Bush administration with regard to climate change or stem cell research. This case is an instance of (presumably) private individuals attacking and attempting to discredit an entire field of science for ideological purposes. It's more comparable to the terrorism carried out by animal rights activists against medical researchers. Animal rights extremists have always been a tiny minority, though; Weart is making the point that the anti-scientific campaign against climate researchers is of a kind and a scale which we've never seen before. -- ChrisO (talk) 08:58, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

The distinction between governments and individuals is solely one of magnitude. At the roots of each are attacks on science on ideological grounds. -- Chelydramat (talk) 16:27, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

The piece on Spencer Weart, who is an expert in the history of science, is under the "Other expert commentary" section. Speaking for myself I have no professional expertise in either science or history. If anybody reading this has relevant expertise comparable to Weart's and has an opinion distinct from Weart's, they are welcome to contact the Washington Post or a similar source and publish a critique which may be considered for inclusion in the article. Someone on the internet saying Weart's comment looks suspect doesn't really cut it. --TS 10:34, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Eds are welcome to find contrary opinions but the notability of Weart's views is hard to dispute.Dduff442 (talk) 10:38, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Very much so. -- ChrisO (talk) 14:52, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Still, isn't it premature to turn to a historian for comments on a still-developing event? Much of this incindent hangs on the content of the hacked files, which Weart apparently hasn't looked into because of the nature by which they were made public. -- Chelydramat (talk) 16:27, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Historians don't only talk about the distant past. The key skill is the long perspective. --TS 22:10, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Weart's perspecitve is skewed, if only as far as this quote is concerned. He did fail to say that this current controversy has been preceeded by other ideological attacks on science and therefore it is not unique in the history of science.

BTW, I apologize for digging this out of the archive. -- Chelydramat (talk) 00:27, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

CRU Hacking Dispute

There is disagreement over whether the claim by CRU that they were hacked, and an inconclusive statement by the police that they are investigating a "security breach" is grounds for writing the article as though it were a categorical fact that a hack occurred, despite some (also inconclusive) evidence to the contrary. Drolz (talk) 12:19, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

You forgot to mention that there are no reliable sources that support the alternative hypotheses - they're are only blog speculation. Guettarda (talk) 13:02, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

In your summary you have grossly mischaracterized the statement of the Norfolk Constabulary, which says they are "investigating criminal offences in relation to a data breach at the University of East Anglia." Both the UEA and RealClimate have categorically reported separate hacking incidents directly related to this issue, and as the site operators they have access to the logs. There is moreover no (zero, nada, zilch) evidence supporting speculation by some parties that there was an unintentional leak or a deliberate leak by an inside party. --TS 13:07, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

This description is so misleading it's downright dishonest. You're entitled to your own opinions; you're not entitled to your own facts. -- ChrisO (talk) 13:38, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

I don't believe there's any evidence (barring speculation) to the contrary. Equally, there's little evidence hacking occurred, though I'd bet any money this is what happened based purely on the intensity of the buzz -- insiders know more than has been published so far.

The police statement regarding hacking does not confirm an offense has taken place; they would in any case refer to 'alleged hacking' until any court proceedings were concluded.

On balance, I don't think referring to a hack as an established fact is completely fair at this point. Those who suspect hacking, as I do, shouldn't get too hung up about it. Time will tell -- maybe in the very near future the police will confirm an offense has taken place.Dduff442 (talk) 13:43, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

There's plentiful evidence in the shape of the statements from the victims of the hackers. You can't simply ignore those. The people who own the servers are the only ones in a position to tell us what happened to those servers. -- ChrisO (talk) 13:47, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

My familiarity with these issues is slight. I'd be wary of feeding paranoia by treating the antis more reasonable claims the same way as their wholly unreasonable ones. Having had my say, I'll leave the final decision to those better informed than I am.Dduff442 (talk) 14:05, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

I thought a look at existing policy and guidelines might be useful, so I took a look and found Wikipedia:Notability (criminal acts) (WP:N/CA). My intense dislike of the concept of "notability" aside, there are some useful criteria there. In particular, the following:

Notability of criminal acts

"Criminal act" includes a matter in which a crime has been established, or a matter has been deemed a likely crime by the relevant law enforcement agency or judicial authority. For example, the disappearance of a person would fall under this guideline if law enforcement agencies deemed it likely to have been caused by criminal conduct, regardless of whether a perpetrator is identified or charged. If a matter is deemed notable, and to be a likely crime, the article should remain even if it is subsequently found that no crime occurred (e.g., the Runaway bride case) since that would not make the matter less notable.

We seem to be well within the criteria here, although we're really trying to settle a different question: whether we should refer to this as a crime. Because the police say they're investigating criminal offences we can refer to this as a criminal case. Should we at some point find a reliable source reporting evidence of an inside job or an accidental leak, we can add that reliable source under due weight, but meanwhile we're correct to refer to it as a hacking case. There is plenty of evidence in reliable sources to support this characterization. --TS 14:35, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

I think even if it is a leak, it is probably a crime, if nothing else, copyright infringement. Gigs (talk) 21:36, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Copyright infringement is a civil tort, not a criminal offence (with certain specific exceptions related to commercial pirating of music, etc). On the other hand, even if the person performing the unauthorized access were an insider, it might well still qualify as computer misuse. There may also be some relevant aspects of Data Protection law, but I haven't examined that yet. --TS 22:05, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

'Hack" seems to be most widely accepted because:

1. The term "hack" is ambiguous.
2. Computers were involved, so computer terms can be used.
3. Nobody other than the person who copied the files knows the techniques and motivations.

So until more is known about the method or motivation, ambiguous descriptions are being accepted. This may change due to investigation, or when someone's autobiography is published in 40 years. For the article, we either accept ambiguous phrasing, replace it with RS phrasing, or omit it. -- SEWilco (talk) 22:27, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

As someone who has been in the computer and specifically IT business for more than 15 years, I can assure you that this is not a case of "hacking". Actual "hackers" (the correct term is actually "cracker" when someone has broken the law, but I won't insist upon getting that technical here,) get busted for their crimes on a routine basis. Anybody who hacked into the servers at the CRU would have had their IP address logged multiple times when they connected and copied the files, and regardless of where they copied them to, would have left a pretty clear trail that would have been traced, with apprehensions made and a media frenzy within days if not hours of the files becoming common knowledge. The fact that the files were deposited on a Russian server is meaningless: that's the first place anybody would deposit such contraband and the Russians will be no help in tracking IP addresses. It's the nature of the beast.

On the other hand, the files could be leaked from inside without leaving a meaningful record at all. People are always telling me that "my email was hacked, blah, blah," and "my account was hacked, blah, blah," and it ALWAYS turns out to be a situation of them copying or moving files to a place that they forget about (ie. they lost the files,) or somebody in their very own household or office messing around with their computer, or employees messing with the server. Not ONCE in 15 years have I ever seen a case of someone "hacking" into a server or machine past a firewall and copying or deleting files. It's just not that common.

The CRU is clearly using the term "hack" in the broadest sense to attempt to distract attention from the content of the files, and the crimes they themselves are implicated in committing. And crimes were committed here, if none other than blatantly attempting to conceal information in violation of multiple FOI requests. And now, I leave you with my IP address. 97.125.18.72 (talk) 09:58, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

And, by the way, I highly resent anybody referring to "hacking" or "cracking" as "ambiguous terms."97.125.18.72 (talk) 10:06, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

You claim to have worked in IT yet you display a staggering ignorance of the use of proxy chains and tunneling to hide the origin of a session. Extraordinary. I'm not surprised that you have opted not to reveal your identity--your employer should ask for his money back! --TS 14:39, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Tony, that's quite inappropriate. This is a page to discuss how to improve the article, not take cheap shots at editors trying to contribute.--SPhilbrickT 15:46, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Tony, I didn't mention ANY technical details, for the sake of brevity. First of all, tunneling doesn't hide anything, it merely allows code to be encapsulated in order to run through machines with a different architecture, and open proxies don't prevent the need for logging into a server to obtain its contents. Doesn't it strike you as at all curious that nobody has mentioned any of this in their conversations with the media? Finally, I'm highly sought after in this state across several counties, and being self-employed, there isn't anybody to fire me. If someone thinks I'm not doing a good enough job they don't rehire me. It's not a problem for me.

Sphilbrick, I agree, this shouldn't be about attacking the messenger. My point here is that it would be fairly easy for someone with full access to the CRU's servers to plug a thumb drive into any workstation and copy the FOI2009.zip file onto that, which seems to be what happened. After the files got into the wild, I have no doubt that Prof. Jones cried, "I've been hacked!" but an internal investigation probably very quickly determined that the files had been copied by one of the 4,000 or so other faculty and students who had access to that particular server. Time will tell.

In the end, this isn't a story about "illegal hacking," though many people seem to be attempting to make it into just such a story. This isn't a case of Valerie Plame being outed as a CIA agent before the general public, where the exposure was the whole story. This is a story about professional integrity in academia, or lack thereof, and its implications in international relations and government. As a "hacking story," this story just isn't notable enough to stand alone. 97.125.18.72 (talk) 18:32, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Why are you embarrassing yourself with all this bilge? This isn't about attacking the messenger, it's about questioning your self-declared and--from what you've written here--extremely patchy, professional knowledge. --TS 22:00, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Your comments are off-topic, and only serve to make you look petty. I'm trying to help make Wikipedia a more even-handed source for information here, and you are merely trying to create a distraction. Although I'm not surprised to see any individual take sides on this issue, it's sad to see Wikipedia as an institution taking sides. The heading of this section indicates that an editor requested comments, and I submitted some information from my experience dealing with customers for many years who claim to have been "hacked," and you are contributing nothing useful to this conversation. 97.125.30.93 (talk) 23:56, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

The alleged death threats are not notable. Many death threats occur against public figures every day and only very rarely are notable enough to merit mention in Wikipedia, much less prominent place in the article. A related point: mention of alleged criminal events, for which investigations have only started, should be prefaced by "alleged" or similar wording. There are very good reasons newspapers use the term "alleged" if somebody has not in fact been convicted of a crime, some of them argued above. In the case of the alleged death threats and alleged hacking, nobody has even been arrested, for crying out loud, much less convicted. But Wikilawyers citing "alleged" as a "weasel word" apparently think its preferable to convict groups of people (such as climate skeptics, tarring them by alleged association with alleged criminal events) in Wikipedia before anybody has even been arrested, much less convicted, in a court of law. Flegelpuss (talk) 03:38, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Email preface

Why does the Emails section have a preface that is meant to color our perceptions of the scale of this incident? It clearly looks like AGW apologists are trying to downplay the incident in an obviously POV way. I vote to remove the entire preface and just say something totally NPOV like "Some of the noteworthy comments found in the are listed below" or words to that effect. The AGW activists here on Wikipedia are clearly trying to spin this incident their way and have thrown the NPOV rule right out the window. JettaMann (talk) 17:58, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

It seems factual and neutral to me. The bulk of the released emails were indeed mundane and not very controversial. Gigs (talk) 18:01, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Yes, factual and accurate. Just like the description of the Debeeers diamond mines says, "vast majority of contents are mundane, worthless rocks". Oh wait, it isn't described that way. Factual, accurate, and enormously misleading. Absolutely right, this preface is pure spin. The right approach is to write it neutrally.--SPhilbrickT 18:56, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Question: How did you surmise that? Did you go through all 1000 emails? I have them downloaded on my computer and was looking through them, and pretty much every email had a few things that jumped out at me. The hackers didn't upload all the emails, they selectively took emails that were somewhat implicating. Not every one is a neutron bomb of a revelation, however, like the kind the media picked up on. Many talked about funding, conferences, etc... All interesting stuff and slightly damning in their own way. JettaMann (talk) 18:25, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

"How did you surmise that? Did you go through all 1000 emails?" That's what just about all reliable sources who have commented on the matter appear to have said. We can't "go through [them]" ourselves. That isn't our role. Well, of course we can, but we can't use that research in our article. See WP:NOR. Guettarda (talk) 18:31, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

The other statements in the preface were also unreferenced, yet for some strange reason you don't seem to be objecting to them. ;) What we can do is link to some articles that contain the union set of quoted emails in order to determine how many have been heavily played in the media. Or perhaps there is an article that summarizes the statements that received multiple quotes in the media.JettaMann (talk) 18:51, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

No, we can't do that. It's not acceptable, per policy. This isn't about not being referenced, it's about falling afoul of our core policies. Guettarda (talk) 18:55, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Oh what a shocker! Of course you think that we can't go reporting actual numbers in a NPOV manner. It comes as no surprise to me that you want every facet of this article to be contaminated with your AGW activist spin. Please do tell what "core policy" is being violated by NPOV reporting on the actual numbers?JettaMann (talk) 19:03, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Please tell you? I already did. In my first comment. Up there. "See WP:NOR." Guettarda (talk) 19:20, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Dude, you are a laugh riot! Original research? How in the hell is "There were xx emails stolen..." easily verifiable. I think 1000 is what most are reporting. And then follow up with quotes that have been most used. How do we determine which email quoes were used? Easy, we add at least three references to each significant quote. That is a FAR CRY from original research. You know, it's hilarious to me how you AGW activists let all kinds of crap slide if it supports your side, yet even the simplest most basic facts are rejected because you don't like the facts. Pathetic. JettaMann (talk) 19:35, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Seriously, read the policy. You'll see that it clearly excludes just the kind of thing you're proposing. Guettarda (talk) 20:04, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

I just read the entire section, it seems to be missing mention of the various emails which talk about how to hide from FOIA requests, and expressing a general concern about FOIA type requests. Including those would make the section more neutral, but the preface to it seems fine. Gigs (talk) 18:05, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the reply, Gigs. You seem like you legitimately are interested in facts. I agree, that section misses out on many of the prominent quotes that were picked up by the media, so it looks like some of the AGW activists here are trying to suppress information. As for the preface to this section, I think what we could do is try to use less wiggle words like "vast majority" and "small number of emails". Instead, we should use specific words to summarize the contents of the emails, such as "There were xx emails. Of those, approximately xx of the emails received significant coverage in the media."JettaMann (talk) 18:25, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Can you find a reliable source for those numbers? Guettarda (talk) 18:33, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Probably. I haven't tried but it should be easy to identify the emails that get repeat play, and also identify an article that mentions the total number. JettaMann (talk) 18:51, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

There was a reason I like to WP:NOR above. We need reliable sources. We can't go out and do our own research into "how many emails get repeat play". Seriously, it's important that you read that policy document. Guettarda (talk) 18:57, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Well it's not original research. See above.JettaMann (talk) 19:52, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

LOL. Read the policy. Guettarda (talk) 20:08, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

I did and there is no violation of it. Everything is referenced and factual, not a hint of original research.JettaMann (talk) 20:30, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

(ec)Yeah, I removed that on Monday because it was simply a cherry-picked quoted with no supporting context. A quote that is cherry-picked because it makes Jones look bad fails BLP. If it's in there, it need to be thoroughly discussed. It doesn't "speak for itself". Guettarda (talk) 18:27, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

It would be original research if we published counts of how often various quotes got mentioned in the media. But it isn't original research to base the coverage in the article on how much coverage each quote is getting. This is the thrust of our policy regarding undue weight; amount of article coverage should reflect the amount of coverage in the source materials.

As for the raw count of the number included in the release, I think FOI2009.zip could be considered a primary source, and could be cited for basic facts and statistics, the same way that we cite TV shows as primary sources of their own plot summaries. This would have to be done very carefully, however. We can easily say that there are 1073 files in the email directory in the leaked ZIP file, just by popping it open and looking, however because of quoted emails, incomplete conversations, etc, we can't say that there are 1073 emails without doing significant original research. Gigs (talk) 20:38, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

We can't use FOI2009.zip as a source, so all that is moot. Sources must be referenced, and we cannot link to it for legal reasons. -- Scjessey (talk) 20:42, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

The first part of my comment is not moot either way, since it's about undue weight, not sourcing. Regarding the second part, I don't know of any requirement that we link to sources. Our external link guideline does indeed prohibit linking to copyright infringements, but there's nothing in our referencing guidelines about it. Gigs (talk) 20:47, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

We can't reference the CRU archive because it was never published. While the veracity of what was presented hasn't been challenged, nobody knows for certain whether it has been altered or not. It's a primary source (regardless of validity), but we work with secondary sources in any case. Dduff442 (talk) 20:58, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

(after ec) I cannot conceive of a way that you could refer to the content of the zip file as a primary source without referencing it directly. I am pretty sure you would need to discuss something like that with administrators. -- Scjessey (talk) 21:02, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

To Dduff, we do also reference primary sources for certain non-controversial facts. However your point about it never being published, and trouble ensuring integrity is relevant and a point well taken. I think it would be best to avoid citing it as a source, as you are correct that we should primarily rely on secondary sources. ;) To scjessey, it's community consensus that determines such things, not administrators, but I accept Dduff's arguments against citing it, he makes some good points about why it would be a bad idea. Gigs (talk) 21:25, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

We can link to the Palin emails on Wikileaks in Sarah Palin email hack, so why not link to Wikileaks - Climatic Research Unit emails, data, models, 1996-2009 in this article? -- SEWilco (talk) 22:41, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

There are no good reasons for this double standard, obviously. And so far, not even any bad ones.Flegelpuss (talk) 04:29, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Nice. It's OK to cherry pick a single sentence out of a single article, but we can't use the word 'controversy' in the article title even though it's supported by dozens of reliable sources. [6] [7]. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 23:11, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Editing restrictions here are completely unjustified

I consider this CRU-gate article to be waaay below Wikipedia standards - much more biased than even the most biased articles I've come across! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.100.244.43 (talk) 00:36, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

What has happened to Wikipedia? It never used to be like this. 76.111.71.133 (talk) 21:33, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

A few million people started watching our every move. Gigs (talk) 21:38, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

And in this particular case we got an influx of people who think that Glenn Beck is a scientific authority. Words fail me. -- ChrisO (talk) 21:47, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

A subset of articles are always like this, and attract a lot of comments and edits by people who don't mind making POV edits, or don't realize their edits are POV. I like to think that it balances out because other people are drawn to the conflict and enjoy the resolution, although this looks like a particularly tough topic. We'll tame it eventually. Ignignot (talk) 21:50, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Chris, your comment implies that only scientific authorities are acceptable as sources. That wouldn't be true even if this were purely about the science. This article is tangentially about the science, it is more about process and politics. I am not arguing that Glenn Beck's opinions deserve to be included, but your rationale is flawed.--SPhilbrickT 15:26, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Actually it is very much about the science. With very few exceptions, the e-mails cited in the controversy are all about scientific issues - the "Nature trick" (which is a scientific method), "hide the decline" (which relates to a method of measuring temperatures by proxies), Climate Research (which relates to a peer-review scandal at a scientific journal), the quality (or lack thereof) of "the other paper by MM", the "travesty" of not being able to "account for the lack of warming at the moment" (which relates to inadequacies in monitoring systems). All of these issues are being spun in a particular way by lobbyists and anti-science activists and commentators. I'm certainly not saying that "only scientific authorities are acceptable as sources", but the fact is that scientific authorities are inherently more reliable than non-scientific sources on such questions, simply because of the disparity in expertise. The media are notorious for getting science wrong. -- ChrisO (talk) 17:30, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

False. Are we really to believe you? I mean, your politics and socialist bias are clear. We are suppose to trust the inmates to run the asylum, as it were?64.53.136.29 (talk) 05:30, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

I must be missing something. What editing restrictions apply to this article that don't apply across the entire encyclopedia? --TS 21:59, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

It is under semiprotection. Ignignot (talk) 22:05, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Is that all the IP editor meant? Maybe he hasn't heard of scibaby. --TS 22:14, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

This article is obviously protected so that about five hardcore AGW activists will have completely control over it. Drolz (talk) 22:43, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Anybody who has registered an account between 2001 and early December, 2009 can edit the article. The semiprotection keeps out the banned trolls at the expense of requiring new editors to wait a few days. --TS 22:50, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

And how could a few, unrelated editors wield such power over all the others? Ooooh, because we have all the WP policies on our side. It's not a conspiracy; it's not a matter of opinion; just up above we were begging JettaMann to try to find WP:RSs to back up his claims. If you edit by WP policy, your edits will stick. If you want to add biased, baseless, bonkers tosh, it will be immediately deleted, Shimples. --Nigelj (talk) 23:05, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

It's called a WP:CABAL. There are only a handful of active editors here who are actually trying to follow WP:NPOV. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 23:52, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Are you by any chance citing that famous climatologist Professor Meer Kat? -- ChrisO (talk) 23:15, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Actually, the last time I came by this page it wasn't just semi-protected. It was locked completely. I was logged in, but locked out of editing. I didn't note the day, but it was about a week after the scandal broke online; which matches the OP's post. I frankly was appalled that established editors were locked out. It looked really bad. That's the opposite of what made Wikipedia great: openness. Greenbough (talk) 23:28, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Ignignot, the editors who control this article are happy to cite WP:NPOV when it comes to material they believe backs their point of view, but are the first to toss it out the window when it comes to their own edits. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 00:04, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

No kidding. Guys like ChrisO and Guererra (misspelled probably) are nothing but AGW activists.JettaMann (talk) 20:35, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Discussion of deletion of a quote by Raymond Pierrehumbert

In the Reactions sections some quotes are clearly out of place. In particular, look at this quote:

One of the IPCC's lead authors, Raymond Pierrehumbert of the University of Chicago, expressed concern at the precedent established by the hack: "[T]his is a criminal act of vandalism and of harassment of a group of scientists that are only going about their business doing science. It represents a whole new escalation in the war on climate scientists who are only trying to get at the truth ... this illegal act of cyber-terrorism against a climate scientist (and I don't think that's too strong a word) is ominous and frightening. What next? Deliberate monkeying with data on servers? Insertion of bugs into climate models? Or at the next level, since the forces of darkness have moved to illegal operations, will we all have to get bodyguards to do climate science?"[61]

Now, Raymond Pierrehumbert is supposedly an expert in climatology. His statement, however, does not have anything to do with the climatology, or any science. It appears that there is not a single scientific argument in it, just raw emotion. Raymond also does not have any practical connection to the incident; his name is mentioned in the emails just twice. I am planning to delete the paragraph unless there are arguments on why Raymond is an RS on the subject of computer and physical security. Dimawik (talk) 23:28, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

His comments aren't about computer and physical security per se. I do agree that some of his remarks are a bit over the top, but we paint what we see. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 23:34, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Boris, didn't you object to "over the top" statements by skeptics? It seems that if a person is skeptic, a single over-the-top opinion disqualifies the person, not just the statement. All I want is a level playing field and no loony alarmist quotes in Wikipedia. Dimawik (talk) 00:20, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

"Deliberate monkeying with data on servers? Insertion of bugs into climate models?" is not about computer security? -- SEWilco (talk) 23:41, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Only secondarily - his concern is with future technical attacks on climate researchers. Considering how technology-dependent they are, you can understand why they would be concerned about attempts to sabotage their computers. The examples he gives are rhetorical, the gist of his argument is about the general threat rather than the means. -- ChrisO (talk) 23:53, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

his concern is with future technical attacks - yes, precisely due to his theorizing about things that have not yet happened in the field he knows nothing about he should not be quoted. Dimawik (talk) 00:24, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Your argument is rather akin to stating that we require all remarks on shooting deaths to be made by ballistics experts. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 00:41, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

First of all, police is usually quoted as a source of shooting reports. Second, Raymond is not even reporting on anything, he is just speculating about the future in the field he is not an expert in. Third, didn't someone just argue that for the quotes in climatology admitted into this article the author has to be an expert in the field? Once again, this is a pure speculation coming from a non-expert; shall be deleted. Dimawik (talk) 01:00, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

He's not speaking of computer and physical security: he's expressing his concern about escalating harassment of climate scientists. Since we've already seen death threats and "torrents" of threatening and abusive e-mails sent to climate scientists around the world, it's hardly a theoretical concern. He is quite clearly competent to speak of an issue affecting his profession. The quote is therefore highly relevant and to the point. (And re Boris's remarks, we've already seen terrorism directed against scientists in other professions, particularly medical research, so it's not much of a leap of imagination to see future physical threats to climate scientists.) -- ChrisO (talk) 23:38, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Raymond's comments are exclusively about the security. He does not discuss either emails or data on merits. He is not a professional in the security field, so his words about the security should not be quoted in the article. Adequate quote on the need of bodyguards shall come from the police (I do not expect this, BTW), not a spooked scientist. Dimawik (talk) 00:17, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Re-read his comments. He is a leading member of a profession which sees itself as under attack from radical extremists. He says that he sees the attack on the CRU as "a whole new escalation in the war on climate scientists who are only trying to get at the truth". He expresses his concern about this - "ominous and frightening". He goes on to give rhetorical examples of the kind of threats that he fears. It is all relevant to how climate scientists are interpreting the incident. He does not pretend to be a security professional; he's speaking as a member of a group which sees itself under threat. -- ChrisO (talk) 00:25, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

The quotes you've isolated are brief and punchy. They isolate what make these remarks stand out in the torrent of info on this issue. The quote as it stands in the article, OTOH, comes across as hysterical, is wordy, and strays into speculation. Maybe we can achieve consensus on "a whole new escalation in the war on climate scientists who are only trying to get at the truth" and "ominous and frightening"? Dduff442 (talk) 01:54, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Raymond in this quote gives rhetorical examples of actions that did not yet happen in the field he does not understand. His emails were not leaked, so he is not "victimized" either. His quote does not belong in the article. Dimawik (talk) 00:51, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

He's one of the victims of the crime who's concerned about further victimisation, concerns about how this stuff will affect his life and work. Very relevant. Guettarda (talk) 23:43, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Why is he a victim? If you accept that any emotional statement from a person who have been mentioned few times in emails automatically qualifies him/her as a "victim" and allow quoting him for the article regardless of other merits, a lot of skeptics will qualify as "victims" :-) Dimawik (talk) 00:07, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

It really is a very long quote. A bit hysterical also, IMO. As with Monckton, I think his comments do as much for his opponents as his own side. Some modest editing would help credibility. I would hang on to his comments about pressure on scientists if I had to choose.

It represents a whole new escalation in the war on climate scientists who are only trying to get at the truth ... is pithy and punchy. Less is more, guys!Dduff442 (talk) 00:29, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Discussion died down with none of my points refuted. Going to delete. Dimawik (talk) 02:17, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Don't delete. His views on the effect on the practice of science are relevant, whatever about the rest. I'd support a major slimming down of the quote, but not deletion.Dduff442 (talk) 02:23, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Do you also happen to think that being a scientist requires a bodyguard - and all of this due to the leak of someone else's emails? To me this quote is an incoherent rambling. Dimawik (talk) 02:46, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

It's coherent, just speculative and a little bit hysterical. I've trimmed it down for brevity. Dduff442 (talk) 02:48, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

And I've restored it. What you think of the quote has no bearing on its relevance, and it is entirely appropriate for this article. Viriditas (talk) 03:42, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

There *was* consensus to trim down the quote once participants in the conversation had dwindled to myself and Dimawik. As Dimawik wanted to delete, I compromised by trimming it down. Do you really feel you should revert just because you can? The article is getting bloated; my only interest was in punch and brevity.

What I think of the quote goes towards establishing consensus. Dismissing others opinions is really just pointlessly irritating.

Why proceed robotically, auto-reverting perceived hostile edits? If you wrote the entire article yourself, do you think you'd find space for that entire quotation? Dduff442 (talk) 03:55, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

PS did you even read the last half dozen comments before posting? Pay attention if you're going to edit.Dduff442 (talk) 03:57, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

I see no valid reason to trim down or delete one of the most relevant quotes to the article. Please present a single valid argument for doing so. Viriditas (talk) 04:13, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Dear Viriditas, Let me recollect:

1. Raymond is a supposed expert in climatology, nobody claims him to be an expert in security
2. The quote contains no statements about the climatology, it is 100% comment on computer and physical security. Therefore, the supposed expertise of Raymond is not applicable
3. Raymond discusses the events that did yet not happen in the field he does not know. This is pure speculation
4. Raymond is practically unrelated to the incident. None of the emails leaked were written by him; his last name is mentioned in the emails just twice
5. His statements contain highly emotional wording ("forces of darkness"), and truly ridiculous suggestions ("will we all have to get bodyguards to do climate science").

With these facts in hand, please tell me what makes you to say the quote is relevant? Dimawik (talk) 09:13, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

I tend to agree with Dduff442, relevant but slightly "over-the-top" if quoted in full. Also I see it good to limit the lenght of quotes in general, when possible. --J. Sketter (talk) 04:23, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Only problem is best practice is the exact opposite. Whenever possible, we quote in full context with as much detail as we can. This is because of editors who selectively quote to push POV. If a quote is simply too long to quote inline, our alternatives involve using a pull quote or a footnote. Selectively quoting is always discouraged, especially in controversial articles. It should also be obvious that what we consider "over-the-top" has no bearing on quoting. Viriditas (talk) 04:33, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Once again, as-is, the quote is a hysterical speculation on events related to computer and physical security that did not yet happen written by a non-professional in the security field who is practically unrelated to the incident itself. Try to disprove at least part of this description. I agree that the quote shall not be trimmed; it shall be deleted as a whole. Dimawik (talk) 09:00, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

All I was trying to do was to strike a compromise between Dimawik's declared intent to delete and the prior consensus existing before the other eds dropped out of the conversation. The number of participants had dropped to two and consensus had been achieved before this revert without prior comment or argument. This kind of effort to 'do some good' is killing the integrity of the editorial process on Wikipedia.Dduff442 (talk) 09:51, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Once again, discussion has died down with no arguments on why the quote (or its author) is relevant to this article. Going to delete. Dimawik (talk) 19:08, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

The quote seems relevant, because in effect a prominent member of the scientific community is saying "the important part about all this is the criminal act!" And the fact he thinks that is the most important part seems important and relevant.

- No signature above -

Once again (please read the discussion above!), Raymond is a climatologist. He is not a policeman, a prosecutor, or a security / computer crime expert. If he were talking about the hockey stick graph, his words could be considered. Here, however, he is speculating about the hypothetical events (that might happen, in his opinion) way outside of his field of expertise. In other words, his words are completely irrelevant and will be deleted. You need to provide at least some explanation as to why his opinions on the computer security and physical protection of the scientists are more relevant than opinions offered by random people on the street. Dimawik (talk) 19:37, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Your points have been refuted and you do not have any consensus to delete. You're just in WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT mode, which is why people aren't bothering to respond - it's because you give the strong impression that you have nothing worthwhile to say. -- ChrisO (talk) 20:36, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Dear ChrisO, my points have been listed (and even numbered 1 to 5) above. Would you mind to point to any refutation of these in this discussion? I think you are the one not hearing the arguments. Dimawik (talk) 21:24, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

After reading the quote in the context of the article, it seems out of place. Dimawik's points seem strong to me. The only reason the scientist has credibility for inclusion in an encyclopedia entry is as an expert of climate. He's not speaking to that issue here. MarkNau (talk) 22:51, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

He's a scientist and is speaking of the emotional impact this hacking has had on himself and his colleagues. That's a very big part of the story. There are serious death threats. --TS 23:07, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

The death threats are a tertiary issue. The section that quote was being included in deals properly with climate reactions to the meaning of the data uncovered. An emotional reaction to threats has no place. MarkNau (talk) 23:13, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

I don't recall any reports on death threats to Raymond reported anywhere. It seems that Raymond is simply speculating on potential problems way out of his area of competence. He is within his rights to do so, of course, but why do some editors feel the need to put his ramblings into encyclopedia? Dimawik (talk) 23:46, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

The quote is made by somebody with no expertise in precedents, is obviously wrong to people with such expertise, and is not notable. It is obviously wrong because the precedents regarding the illegality of hacking are well established and are not changed one iota by this event. In short, this quote is silly, quite erroneous, made by somebody with no expertise in precedents, and above all is not notable, so it should not be in the article.Flegelpuss (talk) 04:47, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

A Reasonable Person looking at this article to find out what climategate meant could conclude:

I. It is largely notable because of criminal hacking.

The first section in the article mentions nothing about the document contents. It includes superfluous detail about what countries various IPs originated from, etc. The impression is that everyone is up in arms about some conspiracy of hackers.

II. It secondly notable because of the death threats against scientists that were apparently directly caused by the hack. As in, because of these hackers, the lives of scientists are now in danger.

It's very easy to read this as though the investigation into the hackers and the death threats are one and the same.

Not only death threats, but "abusive emails are mentioned."

III. The files themselves are largely innocuous. Those that aren't have been authoritatively explained. This is "over."

Jones: Skeptics made a vague allegation of manipulation, which is not explained, nor is anyone quoted. There are then four quotes attacking the unquoted skeptics. You might as well just remove the allegations entirely, and leave in the rebuttals.

Mann: Quote of the email followed by explanations. No opposing viewpoints.

Jones: Same.

Trenberth: Same.

Looking at this section, it is impossible to guess at where the controversy came from in the first place. Why have people been going on about "Climategate" if the whole thing was over four emails that were apparently immediately explained, and that no "skeptics" ever bothered to respond to?

IV. Calls for inquiry: One short paragraph of a couple such calls followed by five times as much space spent dismissing the need for inquiries. When anyone says something that could be construed as supporting one, there is a tidal wave of qualification.

V. Massive, unreadable section on climate scientists.

This article is structured in a way that makes it impossible to understand what the controversy is about. It needs to be broken up into "Skeptics say" and "AGW People say" sections so that people can get an idea of what the positions are. It's not important that any of you agree with these positions, because this isn't an article about the truth of global warming, it's about a public debate. The way it's covered now is like if you described a presidential debate and used bullet points for one candidate, while quoting the other in full, and supporting him with outside sources as well.

Once the whole thing is settled, and people stop going back and forth on it, some sort of crystallization will probably be possible, but that is totally premature at this point. Drolz (talk) 00:37, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

• "The files themselves are largely innocuous" - That appears to be the case. I don't recall seeing any reliable sources that argue otherwise .
• "It needs to be broken up into "Skeptics say" and "AGW People say" sections" - no, it most certainly does not need to be broken up like that. We are supposed to avoid that style of writing as much as possible. Guettarda (talk) 04:53, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

"I don't recall seeing any reliable sources that argue otherwise" - Then you haven't even looked into it... regardless of the many HIGHLY incriminating email-s, there's also been a lot of buzz about the temperature modifying source code for some of the models that CRU had been using. Without citing over 100 sources, I'll just let you make your pick from the vast array that Google provides when searching "Cimategate code". -MrGuy —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.178.22.16 (talk) 08:15, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Agree with OP, and with above comment. Most journals are reporting that the emails show evidence of withholding data over and against the FOIA, blocking contrary opinion, quashing peer-review journals, and manipulating data. We're talking Wall Street Journal, Reason, BBC, Associated Press. This article needs to reflect that.--Heyitspeter (talk) 21:22, 11 December 2009 (UTC) I think this template should be added to the article. Can an admin do so?:

If "journals are reporting that the emails show evidence of..." things, what that is, is journals speculating. They are there to sell copies of said journals, and they have lawyers who will advise them just how close to the wind they may sail in order to maximise doing so. We are a respected, free encyclopedia, which means we don't have to titillate our readers with juicy speculation, and neither are we allowed to do so. Enquiries have been called, and when they finish, we will be able to report if it was found that any of these emails actually showed evidence of these things, but without joining in WP:BLP speculation. --Nigelj (talk) 21:58, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

You'd probably want to read (or reread) our verifiability policy and its related reliable sources guideline. One reason why Wikipedia makes the internet not suck is that, unlike Google, it carefully assesses sources by reliability. --TS 08:30, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

I don't think I've seen much discussion of the code in reliable sources. I suspect it's probably too technical for the mainstream media to have much interest in it. It seems to have excited bloggers but not made much of an impact elsewhere. -- ChrisO (talk) 08:33, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

"...[Wikipedia] unlike Google, it carefully assesses sources by reliability" -- Oh, my mistake, I didn't know a Google search returns unreliable sources only. -MrGuy —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.37.206.6 (talk) 18:45, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

No, not unreliable sources only, but rather the reliable alongside the unreliable. There is a trust algorithm of some sort but it does not have the power to discriminate between, for instance, reportage, editorial, and opinion column. --TS 18:50, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

To the neutral editors

We have three groups of editors here. One group wants to maximize the damage of this controversy as much as possible. The second group wants to minimize it as much as possible. The third group just wants to write a good article in accordance with WP:NPOV and WP:RS. We've been able to deal with the first group though various forms of blocking. However, we have not be able to address the issue of the second group. Thus far, repeated reminders about policy (particularly WP:NPOV and WP:UNDUE) have not worked. What can we do to address the issue of this second group? A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 01:32, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

I have nominated the article for a neutrality check, in the hope of getting some fresh perspective. I'm pretty new to editing though and I've no idea how well that tends to work. I would very much like to see this article be a description of an ongoing debate rather than an explanation of why one side has already won that debate. Drolz (talk) 01:42, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

It seems to me that the "minimizers" rely on wikipedia policies whenever they mildly support their position, and every time they do not, they fall back on "consensus." Apparently, because there is no "consensus" for changing the page to an NPOV form, it must be left in its POV form? Drolz (talk) 01:45, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Ultimately I think the article somewhat dances around the central issue at this point. If you ignore the right-wing pundits and the true believers' screaming, at least. The credibility of a few of the foremost climate scientists has been damaged. Not by the revelation of some wide scale data doctoring as the right claims, but by the revelation of the extent that they were willing to go to to try to avoid their legal obligations under freedom of information laws. The real implications this will have going forward will mostly have to do with transparency and ethics in science more than anything else. Many of our sources support this analysis of the events, and I think we should make sure to give that particular issue due weight. Gigs (talk) 01:52, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Someone just removed the Jones email about avoiding FOIA, apparently because his own words are not in keeping with BLP standards. Am I the only one who has noticed that when "consensus" is discussed, it's always that there is no consensus for including things that reflect poorly on CRU, and for excluding things that reflect positively on it? Drolz (talk) 02:00, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

WP:BLP is a legitimate concern. I'll take a look at the edit, but it's not a WP:BLP violation if cited to a WP:RS. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 02:06, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

A Quest for Knowledge, there are only two groups. One group wants to prove that science is a hoax while the other group wants the story to be reported accurately. There is no third group. The Four Deuces (talk) 02:10, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

That's a False dichotomy. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 02:27, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

• Dear FD, I think you are getting a bit personal here. Very few (none?) of your opponents think that the science is hoax. Arguing that the current state of the climatology requires some serious fixing is not the same as disregarding the science in general and even climatology in particular. Most of your opponents are scientists, in fact. Dimawik (talk) 02:31, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

(ec) To Drolz: Please try to assume good faith. While I agree with your sentiment, these sorts of accusations aren't helping build any real consensus, it's just polarizing people further. Anyway toward the end of including more coverage of the FOIA avoidance issue, here is a potential source: [8] "When you have a bunch of scientists going out of their way to prevent Freedom of Information Act requests to get source documents you get people hiding something," Rep. John Linder (R-Ga.) Whether these accusations are baseless or not isn't really relevant, there's plenty of them flying, and plenty of coverage of them. Gigs (talk) 02:12, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Honestly I don't think it's possible to attain any semblance of balance while the article remains protected. If people who were just dropping by could edit it, there would be a lot more reference to the actual debate etc. As it stands now, about five extremely committed people have complete control over the article, and aren't afraid to threaten anyone who disagrees with blocking. Drolz (talk) 02:14, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

I really can't see why I should assume good faith when the same three people have threatened to get be blocked repeatedly, each time that I add something that is not in keeping with the article's current POV slant. Drolz (talk) 02:16, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

OK, I took a look at the edit.[9] It's cited to the article, A climate scandal, or is it just hot air? by The New Zealand Herald. The New Zealand Herald is a reliable source so it's not a WP:BLP violation. It should be restored. But we should probably also add a couple more sources to be on the safe side. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 02:23, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Here are two more reliable sources we can use for this content: U.K. Climate Scientist Steps Down After E-Mail Flap (Update4) A global debate heats up A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 02:38, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Frankly, I think a good first step would be simply removing all explanation and construal from the emails section. It is currently a press release about why we shouldn't read the emails. Either make the emails section nothing but the plain text, or make it plain text + accusation, and then follow that section with a rebuttal section. I think the second idea is better because it gives a clear understanding of who is saying what, and why "Climatgate" is a word people are using. Drolz (talk) 02:30, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

The article needs more deletion than addition at this point. Drolz (talk) 02:30, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Putting the hand-picked quotes out there by themselves would violate NPOV more than the article does now. The quotes are by nature biased... they are the worst things out of a domain of thousands of emails. I support adding back the quote that Quest for Knowledge just mentioned, but it needs to have commentary along with it about what people are saying about it. Gigs (talk) 02:35, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Disagree. The controversy surrounds particular emails; it is not based on the claim that a certain % of scientific emails show malfeasance, and the fact that many more emails do not reveal malfeasance has no bearing on the current controversy. Drolz (talk) 02:38, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

We should provide context. In determining content, the main question we should be asking ourselves is, "What do reliable sources say about the matter?" A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 02:40, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

• As far as I know, nobody proposed to "hand-pick" quotes. We will use quotes already picked up by the RSs. Dimawik (talk) 02:42, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Isn't the relevant context that X number of emails and documents leaked, and Y number of them indicate malfeasance? Drolz (talk) 02:44, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Is there a way to block some of the more overt AGW activists like Guettarda and ChrisO? They are as bad as the first group you mentioned and deserve similar treatment. I've been very happyu with editors like A Quest for Knowledge and Gigs. Both seem to be on a genuine search for truth and I wish we could rely on them to settle disagreements. JettaMann (talk) 20:54, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Which part of WP:AGF is that based on, JettaMann? The WP:NPA part? Assume good faith, and discuss improving the article content, not the other editors. --Nigelj (talk) 21:19, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Speaking for myself, I don't rule out improving the other editors. --TS 23:06, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Quotation issue

As Gigs rightly points out, the statement is damaging to Jones' credibility. And that's the problem, that's why this is a WP:BLP issue. There's an implications of wrongdoing. But implications aren't good enough. We need sources that discuss the significance of the statement, and we need to present what these sources say in a balanced, NPOV fashion.

At the heart of BLP is "do no harm". This quote harms Jones, deservedly or undeservedly. The less context there is, the more harm, since people will assume the worst. For example, if people assume he followed through with the threat (as many will) we will do Jones undeserved harm. Which violates the BLP policy. We don't present "the facts" and "let people make their own conclusons" - we report what reliable sources have to say about notable issues. As policy requires that we do. Guettarda (talk) 03:07, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

OK, well here are three reliable sources we can use to cite this material: A climate scandal, or is it just hot air? U.K. Climate Scientist Steps Down After E-Mail Flap (Update4) A global debate heats up A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 03:12, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

I just read the actual WP:BLP page and it clearly supports the inclusion of this quote.

If an allegation or incident is notable, relevant, and well-documented by reliable published sources, it belongs in the article—even if it's negative and the subject dislikes all mention of it. If it is not documented by reliable third-party sources, leave it out.

The only relevant question is whether or not there is WP:RS for the claim that the quotation is accurate. The fact that people may draw negative conclusions from the quote is not relevant. "Do no harm" is quite obviously not the heart of BLP; the heart is "We must get the article right," as the page itself says. Since this quotation is unquestionably accurate, and there are reliable sources backing the allegation against him, the inclusion is warranted. Not including it is blatant POV. Drolz (talk) 03:27, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

No inclusion is the default position; it is not POV. Viriditas (talk) 03:44, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Drolz, do take care to read the whole policy and get the general sense of it. Wikipedia policies are not legal documents - you cannot cherry-pick a couple lines and use them to argue against the core aim of the policy. Guettarda (talk) 04:18, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

I read the whole article and as I said, nothing in it recommends against the inclusion of this piece. I think it's about time that instead of just spamming the talk page with WP:BLP WP:NPOV etc., you and your friends start explaining what part of these policies are actually violated by the quotes et al. you don't want included in this article. Drolz (talk) 04:24, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

So you read the policy and still think that we can include cherry-picked material that is damaging to the subject, simply because we can reliably source it? Guettarda (talk) 04:38, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

"[Y]ou and your friends start explaining what part of these policies are actually violated by the quotes". I already did that. In this section. It has a 3:07 time stamp on it. Guettarda (talk) 04:40, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, I didn't mean explain why it violates your made up summary of the BLP page, or your unsupported claims that we do an don't do certain things. Secondly, if Jones wrote the email, and someone else took him at his word, how is anything that results "undeserved?" And how is "undeserved harm" a violation of BLP again? Stop making stuff up and find something in the actual policy to support your claims. Drolz (talk) 04:56, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Actually, Guettarda is upholding policy, and you are the one making stuff up. Perhaps if you weren't a SPA focused solely on promoting one side of the issue, you might have some credibility. You could always turn over a new leaf. Viriditas (talk) 05:12, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

• [I]f Jones wrote the email, and someone else took him at his word, how is anything that results "undeserved?" Well, a lot of people have used that email to conclude that Jones deleted the files in question. The truth is that the files were not deleted. Simply presented, without context of discussion, some of our readers will leave with the impression that Jones deleted the files. Similarly, there's a question of why he did not want the files released. Most people will read that and conclude he had something to hide. But if you read more of the background and context, it's likely that he didn't have the right to release the files, since he didn't own the data and wasn't permitted to release it. We can't present information that improperly smears a person. And if the information properly smears a person, we need to make sure that (a) we have a reliable source to support that meaning, and (b) we need to determine that the information is really necessary in the article. That's what's expected of us.
• [H]ow is "undeserved harm" a violation of BLP again? Thought you said you read the policy. If you had, you'd know the answer to that question. Guettarda (talk) 05:30, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

The only mention of 'harm,' deserved or otherwise in the BLP page is:

The possibility of harm to living subjects must be considered when exercising editorial judgment.

That emphatically does not mean the potential to do harm prevents inclusion. The article says nothing about information being misconstrued by a reader--its overwhelming thrust is libel, which this clearly is not. Again, find actual support for your claim. Drolz (talk) 05:43, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

• The only mention of 'harm,' deserved or otherwise in the BLP page is - As I said to you before, you can't read Wikipedia policy as if it were a legal document. You most certainly shouldn't search the page for a keyword unless you know exactly what you're searching for. Now go back and read it. If you read that page and think it's no big deal to harm a person's reputation...then you really missed the point.
• its overwhelming thrust is libel - no, it isn't. Our standards are considerably higher than that. Guettarda (talk) 06:07, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

This is such a cowardly argument. You are telling me that there are no specific guidelines controlling this issue, but just looking at the article with some sort of wholistic view will inevitably support your position. If the standards are higher then libel, why did they specifically mention libel and not the highest standard? Why would you enumerate a lower standard but not the highest one? Moreover, since "undeserved harm" is such a simple concept, why would it not be included if it was disallowed? Find textual support of any kind before posting again. Drolz (talk) 06:30, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

• You are telling me that there are no specific guidelines controlling this issue - Nope, never said anything of the sort.
• [B]ut just looking at the article with some sort of wholistic [sic] view will inevitably support your position - Nope, nothing so simple. Policy is complicated, and policy pages are not legal documents that can be interpreted out of context. You could listen to the advice given to you by established editors (Viriditis and I have over 10.5 years experience here between us), you could ask questions at the various noticeboards...but instead you have chosen to insist that you know more than people who've been dealing with this policy (not always happily) as long as it's been in existence.
• If the standards are higher then libel, why did they specifically mention libel and not the highest standard? Libel is mentioned, because it's a legal standard that you must steer clear of. But the policy doesn't simply say "don't libel people" - it spends time discussing all sorts of other issues. Which you would realise if you read it as a whole.
• [S]ince "undeserved harm" is such a simple concept, why would it not be included if it was disallowed? Um, that's what the policy is about. Not causing undeserved harm to people's reputations. That's what the whole "getting it right" is about. That's why it says that you should consider the possibility of doing harm? Just for the fun of it? No - because you should avoid it. That's why it says that "[m]aterial that may adversely affect a person's reputation should be treated with special care". "Special care" doesn't mean "special care to harm their reputation", it means "special care to avoid harming their reputation". That's why the Foundation statement talks about things like human dignity. That's why it references Jimbo's statement that "[z]ero information is preferred to misleading or false information".
• Find textual support of any kind before posting again. - Oh, how precious. Guettarda (talk) 07:00, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

The Jone quote is clearly notable, relevant, well-documented, and reliably sourced. If this negative information can't go in, then most of the negative information about most public figures in Wikipedia would have to be deleted. The arguments to the contrary are Wikilawyering at its worst.Flegelpuss (talk) 05:16, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Editing issues and methods

Thank you for that post, Quest. I believe I have tried to improve the article in a NPOV, just-the-facts-ma'am way, but I feel completely outnumbered.

On one side there are the folks, seemingly new editors, who insert large poorly sourced sections or paragraphs that reflect badly on the CRU folks. In response, the "this looks bad" side rely on rules lawyering and outright deletion to remove anything they don't like. If this second group were truly interested in improving the article, they would try to improve the poorly sourced &/or poorly written insertions instead of completely deleting them with a blurbish edit summary.

Who's with us? Who can work with Quest and me to improve this article and make it an example of how Wikipedia should work? Quest has some good sources. How about if I put together an NPOV list of material that cries out for inclusion? Madman (talk) 03:28, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

It probably won't help because they will say that there is no "consensus" for the inclusion of these sources, and then spam revert you while threatening to get you blocked. Drolz (talk) 03:34, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Madman, a list sounds like a good idea. If you could put it in wikitable with columns for "pro" and "con" (or for and against), that would enable editors to comment directly on it. Thanks. Viriditas (talk) 03:39, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

(ec) Can you give the Cliff's Notes version for those of us who have gotten sick to death of this whole thing and haven't been following closely? Also note that declaring oneself as "neutral" and others as biased can arouse skepticism -- more at meta:MPOV. (Not saying this necessarily applies to you; just that the perspective is a common one.) Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 03:40, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

The Cliff Notes version can be found in my summary of events above. I'm not trying to be sassy, but I'm unsure what areas you're unclear on.

You can check my edits on the Main page and my Talk pages. I've been wanting to streamline the article and remove a lot of the WP:weasel words and I do think that more emails should be quoted, so some folks would think I am therefore in the sceptic camp. I am, rather, trying to build a better article so that anyone who links in from Google news will be impressed.

Check out my mediation work here. Madman (talk) 03:52, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Count me in. »S0CO^{(talk|contribs)} 04:30, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

I would settle for them being able to get some vague sense of what this CRU press release of an article was written in response to. Drolz (talk) 04:00, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

(ec) I have an alternate theory regarding the "rules lawyering". The reason there is a lot of policy discussions could be because a lot of editors do not understand basic policies such as WP:RS and WP:OR. The editors who aren't familiar with these are also often the ones who refer to themselves as "AGW sceptics" or to others as "AGW supporters" and such. Thus it could appear as if there is one side that is being "wikilawyered" but the assumption that they are being wikilawyerd because they are "sceptics" might not be correct. I think Boris' comment and the one about false dichotomy above is worth a thought.
—Apis (talk) 04:28, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Absolutely. AQFN's intro, and much of the tone in the section as a whole, totally ignores the principle of assuming good faith. It's also replete with violations of our policy on personal attacks.

Wikipedia is a mainstream encyclopaedia, and AGW is mainstream science. When it comes to drawing a line, the "centre" accepts AGW. If you don't, then by all means you're willing to contribute. But people need to realise that their position is a fringe one, and it cannot be given equal weight with the mainstream. Guettarda (talk) 04:46, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Once again you reveal a complete failure to understand this article. This is not an article on whether AGW is real (and even in that case, skepticism does not rise to wikipedia's definition of a fringe or pseudoscience). This is an article describing a public debate, which has been aggressively edited to erase one side of that debate, while giving extreme weight to ancillary issues (the hack, death threats) that serve only to draw attention away from the fact that there is any debate at all. The notion that you are protected by WP:AGF is outrageous. Drolz (talk) 05:03, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Actually, public debate has little to close to nothing to do with this article. The reason you and others are trying to promote that skewed, extra-topical perspective is because it is one based solely on opinion generated from op/ed's and anti-AGW climate lobbyists. Viriditas (talk) 05:09, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

If it has nothing to do with the article, what are the dozens of "experts" you have quoted responding to? For that matter, what is the article about? Drolz (talk) 05:10, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

The article is about the release of the e-mails and other documents, what this material says about the authors specifically and climate science rigor in general, and the effect that this material has had on the climate debate. Er, right? Madman (talk) 05:14, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

I'd leave out the middle clause as it requires us to reach a conclusion or make a value judgment (whether positive or negative). Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 05:16, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Try this: "The article is about the release of the e-mails and other documents, what Reliable Sources say that this material says about the authors specifically and climate science rigor in general, and the effect that this material has had on the climate debate. Madman (talk) 05:19, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

I think the reliable sources thing is inaccurate, or at least misleading. If an "unreliable source" says something about the emails which garners widespread attention, to the extent that "reliable sources" and "experts" are responding to it, is that not worthy of inclusion? This article (or at least part of it)is describing a public debate, and the role of wikipedia is to make note of what was said, not what was said correctly. In that sense, a "reliable source" is anything that was verifiably said, and the second requirement is notability, which is really a matter of how much impact it has on the behavior of others in the debate and the general public etc. Drolz (talk) 05:28, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

First, the part about the reliable sources is not only accurate, it is essential to the creation and maintenance of articles on Wikipedia; This is not the place to argue about it, as your opinion on the matter is at odds with how Wikipedia works. You are free to take your concerns to the RS noticeboard, and I encourage you to do so. Second, this article is not about a "public debate", nor is it accurate to say as Madman has said above, that there is a "climate debate". There is no such debate. What there is, is a vocal group of partisan pundits and commentators generating massive amounts of heat concerning the politics of responding to climate change. While that is certainly a valid topic, it is not the core of this article, and attempts to make it so is a form of coatracking. Viriditas (talk) 05:36, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Did you really just claim that there is no climate debate? Wow, dude. That's pretty intense. Macai (talk) 05:54, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

"Climate debate" is an ambiguous, almost meaningless term, and it can be easily misused to mislead. On Wikipedia, we don't use such terms, and tend to favor unambiguous terms. There is a debate about political reactions to the conclusions reached about climate change, conclusions which are not under debate. There is a debate about reactions to this incident, which again say nothing about the climate science. Viriditas (talk) 06:00, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Let me reiterate Viriditas' point: reliable sources are essential. Seriously Drolz, if you're going to argue policy, you need to educate yourself about policy. Guettarda (talk) 05:38, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Again, you misunderstand me. My point was the the WP:RS standards for this article are simply verifiability. This standard has been perverted to mean that only "experts" are reliable sources, which makes it so that it is essentially impossible to post one side of the controversy. RP:RS simply means that there is a reliable source to support the claim that something was actually said. Drolz (talk) 05:46, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

inb4 "we can't quote every pundit on everything" strawman. Macai (talk) 05:56, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

For example, "There is, however, an important exception to sourcing statements of opinion: Never use self-published books, zines, websites, webforums, blogs and tweets as a source for material about a living person, unless written or published by the subject of the biographical material." This clearly indicates that a blog is a reliable source for what someone says. Per the BLP page, "Wikipedia biographies should simply document what these sources say." That is, a blog is not an RS for "this is what happened," but they are an RS for "this is what XXX says about the event." Drolz (talk) 06:01, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Drolz, please stop taking policy and guidelines out of context. You are welcome to use the RS noticeboard for any concerns. This page is for discussing how to improve the article. Viriditas (talk) 06:06, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Wow, that is a remarkably well argued position. Drolz (talk) 06:09, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Read the heading. If you have concerns about how to interpret the RS guideline, the proper place is Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard. Otherwise, you are just generating noise. Viriditas (talk) 06:11, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Ah, I see. You can spam the WP:RS magic wand at every quote you don't like, but I can't post a reasoned and sourced explanation of why it doesn't apply. That is certainly convenient for you. Drolz (talk) 06:17, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

RS applies, and you are disrupting the talk page with your misinterpretation of policy. I suspect that is your goal. Viriditas (talk) 06:34, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

WP:AGF is being used as an ad hominem argument against several commenters above. It doesn't apply. Every claim I've seen here that has been the victim of a WP:APF retort is not *assuming* anything, but has copious evidence to back it up. It's in the editing history for the main article. There you will see very many instances of, for example, valuable edits that add highly notable and well-sourced material containing a minor error. These edits have been fully reverted, rather than the errors corrected, because of the POV of the reverter. So let's stop invoking WP:AGF against claims that are not *assuming* anything.Flegelpuss (talk) 05:33, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

If you have an issue of an editor not following Wikipedia's policy, please follow dispute resolution. Complaining on talk pages poisons the well for other contributors and does nothing to resolve the dispute. --TS 14:27, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

Scope of article and debate

Actually, there is quite a significant debate about climate science. Where are you getting this idea that there is none? Macai (talk) 06:02, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Actually, this incident has nothing to do with any "significant" debate about current climate science. Where are you getting the idea that it does? Viriditas (talk) 06:04, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Are you kidding me? The only reason this incident is notable at all is because some people think these emails are damning evidence of bias about AGW in CRU and the scientific community at large. Most articles about Climategate, by far, are in part or in whole about how AGW skeptics are going "Ah hah! We told you there was bias!" publicly. This article is made eligible for inclusion by Wikipedia thanks to AGW skepticism. This article has everything to do (hyperbole, okay?) with a significant debate about current climate science, just like the communism article has everything to do with Karl Marx. Macai (talk) 06:17, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Your first mistake is appealing to "what most people believe". If Wikipedia relied on that criteria, we wouldn't have an encyclopedia; We would have what would amount to a comic book, written and drawn by preschoolers, attributing good luck, weather patterns and disease to supernatural forces. So, what most people believe isn't something we concern ourselves with here. Granted, there is a place for that in the anthropology, psychology, and sociology articles, but the sources are written by experts in their field, definitely not "most people'. Second, op/ed's are not an indicator of what "most people believe" but rather an attempt to stuff the ballot box, manipulate public opinion, and argue with emotion and rhetoric. We don't do that here. Third, there is no "significant" debate about climate science, only what to do about the conclusions that it has reached, which means it has nothing to do with science, and everything to do with politics. Viriditas (talk) 06:24, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

I never claimed that Wikipedia should assert the perspective of AGW skeptics as objective fact. Nice try at the strawman, though. You don't need to assert opinions as facts in order to discuss public opinion. This article is evidence of that. Are you suggesting we should try to get that article deleted, or are you going to admit that discussing public opinion is acceptable on Wikipedia? I mean, you can't have your cake here and eat it, too. Also, define "significant", since you keep throwing that term around. Give me an objective set of standards for what makes a debate "significant". Macai (talk) 06:32, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Macai, what is this article about? In your own words, please. Viriditas (talk) 06:35, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

This article should be about everything notable pertaining to Climategate. That is to say, all significant positions. My definition of a "significant position" is a position that is held by a large portion of the general population, a position presented by at least one mainstream news organization, or a position that is presented by a source that is considered authoritative by the government. I use the words "should be", because as it stands right now, the article does not present all positions that meet this criteria. Macai (talk) 06:42, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Macai, only 14% of American adults believe in evolution. Should we adjust the scientific coverage of this topic based on their non-belief? Viriditas (talk) 11:04, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

If the topic of the page somehow made that number go down, you'd probably want to mention it, yeah. Drolz (talk) 11:18, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

I mean, I assume you think, for example, that the Piltdown Man Hoax should be glossed over, because it might shake faith in the science of evolution? Or perhaps you would say something like "It's the burying of the head that's the story here! Not the decades of scientific acceptance of a hoax!" Drolz (talk) 11:23, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Veriditas, that above comment reveals an incredibly myopic POV. Drolz (talk) 06:20, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

On the contrary, I believe it is an accurate assessment, and nicely describes the problem. Viriditas (talk) 06:24, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

(ec)Try again: "The article is about the release of the e-mails and other documents, what (according to Reliable Sources) notable sources say that this material says about the authors specifically and climate science rigor in general, and the effect that this material has had on the climate debate. Madman (talk) 05:19, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Don't use ambiguous terms. What is "climate debate"? If you mean debate about the climate science, there is no significant debate. If you mean debate about what to do about the conclusions reached by climate science then you are in the realm of political debate, which is based on opinions supported by, well, nothing more than self-interest. Obviously, this is not the place for such a discussion, although it can be briefly mentioned. Manipulation of public opinion is not the same as evaluating evidence. Viriditas (talk) 05:51, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

"If you mean debate about the climate science, there is no significant debate." That is unbelievably wrong. So unbelievable, I'll presume you meant something else, like AGW, in its broadest sense, is well-accepted in the scientific community. I would agree with that. But to characterize climate science as having no debate is absurd.--SPhilbrickT 19:44, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Hmm, you forgot to mention the illegal act which led to the private e-mails and files being posted on the Internet. In fact that might be a good summary: "The article is about the illegal act which led to the private e-mails and files being posted on the Internet". And then the rest follows from that (e.g. the discussion about the e-mails, the allegations and so on).
—Apis (talk) 06:35, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Hacking generally implies illegal act, does it not? While you may argue that its broad definition also includes so-called "white-hat" hackers, the term as used colloquially seems to imply an illegal act. I'm just not sure that adding a word that is primarily redudant will help clarify the lead.jheiv (talk) 10:44, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Give me a break, guys. I'm not trying to write a dissertation or a legal document. I said "the release of the documents" which I had thought encompassed everything related to obtaining and releasing the documents. Instead of "climate debate" we can use Global warming controversy if you wish.

I think we now have a general outline of what this article is about. Thanks, Madman (talk) 11:43, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Overall Impression and Structure

The impression given by the structure and wording of the article is that the incident is primarily about the removal and dissemination of personal emails from CRU. This aspect of the story is clearly not the item of primary importance in the incident. The fact that the article is structured and written the way it has been is clear evidence that the current slant is significantly not adhering to NPOV. Ask yourself this: if there had been no allegedly damaging information in the emails, would this even be an issue people were aware of an want information about? Clearly, clearly not. And yet the article leads with and revolves around the hacking/personal emails issue, obviously straining to paint the incident a particular way. I'm going to take a crack at showing what a NPOV arrangement would look like, fully expecting it to get reverted by someone whose agenda is to minimize any potential damage this incident might do to the cause of fighting anthropogenic global warming.Mark (talk) 16:17, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

This isn't about "minimizing potential damage"; your edit had nothing to do with NPOV. If you had read the previous discussions on the talk page you would have seen that all the issues you "addressed" have already been discussed at length. You removed reliably sourced information about the hack, added weasel words to cast doubt on it, and relegated the death threats to "reactions". They're not statements of opinion, they're criminal acts. I'm not going to rehash all the arguments here - everything that could be said about this has been said already. -- ChrisO (talk) 17:07, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

The "alleges" were super-bad word choice by me, yes. The summary should not have "various allegations" posed against specific quotes by "prominent scientists." That's laughably POV. The current place where the death threats are placed seem to be done so as to specifically paint a particular picture of the incident: Scientists are a victim of criminals. While I agree that this is data that should be presented, it is not the main thrust, and the only reason it has been structured this way is to give a particular impression.Mark (talk) 17:31, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

We're very close to a more natural structure now. An anomolous item is the inclusion of the "death threat" passage at the bottom of the "Hack and theft" section. The natural structure is to discuss the hack/theft, then what was taken, then what the fallout of the incident has been. Death threats seem to fall under the category of "fallout." And yet I agree that they are not well-placed in the "reactions" section. MarkNau (talk) 18:23, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

These are all arguments I made at length, which nevertheless had no effect on the "consensus" represented by ChrisO, TS, Guerudata, and Viriditas. Drolz (talk) 21:00, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Has the basic form of the article actually changed? I hadn't noticed. Our argument with Drolz09 was, if I recall correctly, on his wish to exclude all mention of death threats and then, as a fallback position, to exclude death threats from the lead section. I've proposed both a lead section mention and a separate section of its own on the death threats, which currently seem to span scientists on two or three continents and investigations in several law enforcement jurisdictions. --TS 23:02, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Is this supposed to be a news article or a position paper? You've dealt with those wanting to maximize the damage by blocking them. However, you mention no attempt to deal with those trying to downplay the credibility damage of the incident. I guess that's why it reads like a position paper. The only thing this article tells me at present is that I need to seek out a less biased source. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.159.111.2 (talk) 20:00, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

2005 Email FOIA

Someone suggested editing it here on the talk page, so fine, here it is. I'm not sure where the "smear innuendo" part of it is, so if someone could edit that out, I'd appreciate it.

This looks like non-expert media comment. If the matter has been seriously discussed (that is, not just by journalists looking for an angle) then we should include it. If it's just a newspaper story, it doesn't belong. --TS 14:21, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Which part of it? Gigs (talk) 14:26, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

It's not a paper, it's an editorial deceptively pretending to be a news story. The editorial was published by MediaNews here. We can't include it. Viriditas (talk) 14:18, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

I removed all references to that source in the copy below. Gigs (talk) 14:37, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

The NZ Herald article has some important bits, including the fact that nothing actually was deleted. Guettarda (talk) 14:28, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

That is a good source. I have integrated the Davies quote below. Gigs (talk) 14:33, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Anyway, what's important here is that we treat this like any other Wikipedia article. 1) The quote isn't the central part of the section. Like any other non-free content, it's included because it's being discussed. It's inclusion is not an end in itself. 2) We write NPOV - balanced coverage of notable views, always with an eye to WP:UNDUE. 3) We aim for completeness and context. If we bear that in mind, then the BLP issue pretty much takes care of itself, although we do need to keep our eye on the fact that "[m]aterial that may adversely affect a person's reputation should be treated with special care". Guettarda (talk) 14:35, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

It's hard to build up commentary around a section when it's being reverted in seconds. This compromise of editing it on the talk page seems to be working. I'd appreciate any further input on the section below. Gigs (talk) 14:37, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Another issue - the Pew report (pp 2-3) says:

The CRU is barred by non‐publication agreements with some countries meteorological services from releasing to the public a small amount (less than 5%) of the weather station data the CRU uses to estimate land‐surface temperature trends. The university has confirmed that the CRU is legally barred from releasing these data. A few commentatoused this situation as a basis for accusing the CRU of suppressing data[10]

While they don't come out and say this these are the files that Jones is speaking about, it seems pretty clear to me that they are. So, from the perspective of completeness, from the perspective of not causing unwarranted damage to Jones' reputation, we need to track down the discussion of this issue. Guettarda (talk) 14:42, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

I agree that this should be tracked down, but is it reasonable to infer that this was the reason? Also, is it reasonable to say that the restriction of such a small amount (less than 5% as noted) of data would prevent the release of the remaining data? If the discussion were about the restricted 5% of data, I would expect that to be made more clear. Regardless, it seems like a stretch to make that inference -- certainly that would be an impermissible inference if it were to implicate someone or deepen their involvement.jheiv (talk) 14:49, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

(e/c, jheiv be careful not to delete people's comments when there's an edit conflict) It's a pretty speculative analysis. There are other emails where they do debate about whether to release data based on the country and pay-for-data agreements, but I have not seen any mainstream coverage that suggests that all of Jones' comments can be completely explained away by that. Indeed if that were the case, then I don't know why CRU wouldn't have just come out and said that in the first place, rather than holding an investigation into FOI practices. Anyway, find a good source on it and we can go from there. Gigs (talk) 14:48, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Gigs, I apologize! No harm intended -- thanks for pointing it out. jheiv (talk)

There is also this (warning, some obviously biased language-- that should obviously be cleaned up):

"When deleting, doctoring or withholding information didn't work, Mr. Jones suggested an alternative in an August 2008 email to Gavin Schmidt of NASA's Goddard Institute for Space Studies, copied to Mr. Mann. "The FOI [Freedom of Information] line we're all using is this," he wrote. "IPCC is exempt from any countries FOI—the skeptics have been told this. Even though we . . . possibly hold relevant info the IPCC is not part of our remit (mission statement, aims etc) therefore we don't have an obligation to pass it on." -- WSJ: Global Warming With the Lid Offjheiv (talk) 14:49, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Could I ask that you use direct links rather than ref tags on this page? It's easier to follow if you don't have to click 'edit' to see the link, and ref sections come and go.

Good idea, I fixed my most recent reference. jheiv (talk) 15:07, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

With regards to your point - yes, I agree this we should focus on the issue, not on one email or another is isolation. We should be doing that for all of them, actually. But we have to start somewhere. Guettarda (talk) 14:59, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

This may be a stretch, but depending on how much you want to cover, there is this quote: "Can you delete any emails you may have had with Keith re AR4? Keith will do likewise. He's not in at the moment - minor family crisis. Can you also email Gene and get him to do the same? I don't have his new email address. We will be getting Caspar to do likewise." Which may or may not relate to a FOIA request -- not really committed to seeing this added, but I've read reports suggesting a link between this email and the 2 Feb 2005 one. jheiv (talk) 15:39, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Funny, I thought you were willing to work in good faith to build consensus for the section. I see you were not.[11] Rather disappointing. Guettarda (talk) 18:42, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

The version he readded did reflect the various input people provided on the talk page, as I have been updating it as people raise concerns. The only part that doesn't necessarily have consensus is the inclusion of the Schmidt email. Gigs (talk) 18:58, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

No, not really. "Jones' reluctance to provide data Jones' reluctance to provide data as a result of Freedom of Information Acts is later highlighted"? Got a source that he was "reluctant to provide data"? He was unwilling to provide certain data. Why? Well, the Pew piece suggests that he was unwilling to provide data he had signed an agreement not to divulge. Calling that "reluctance to provide data" is putting quite a spin on it. Fair → smear in just a few words. Guettarda (talk) 19:14, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

That's part of the new part about the Schmidt email that I said may not have consensus. The first part should be fine. Gigs (talk) 19:32, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

I went ahead and removed the schmidt part and reduced it to what we had discussed prior here. Gigs (talk) 19:34, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

I have apologized under your note on my talk page and I will again here, I'm sorry for prematurely adding the content -- it was a good-faith edit that I thought had consensus -- I was wrong and it was not my intention to derail the otherwise impressive dialogue going on on the talk page. jheiv (talk) 20:59, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

(unindent)When discussing the issue on what data that is/was available i seem to miss that the Pew comment is based on this press-release [12]. And there really is nothing new in this, climateaudit in July 2009 commented on the exact same thing[13] as well as all the way back in 2007 [14] - the only data that isn't available is covered by confidentiality arrangements. Now people here may want to doubt that reason as correct (that would be personal POV), but it is 100% consistent with what the CRU has been saying for a long time. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 00:56, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Kim, I'm not sure I understand your point. My understanding was that Guettarda added the Pew quote to suggest a possible explanation of the CRU scientists' words regarding their, say, "unwillingness" to release data. I don't think anyone questioned the truth of the Pew quote, but rather disagreed with it being a viable or possible explanation for their actions (words), and thus warrant inclusion in the section. Basically, my response was that I don't think one can make the jump attributing their words about "rather deleting..." data to the tiny fraction of work that is covered by CAs without stronger evidence of a connection. Are you saying that you are willing to make that leap? jheiv (talk) 02:03, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Why would we be speculating on what their words mean? I was pointing out that the reason that FOI requests for the data wasn't complied to, was quite correctly the Pew explanation, and that it wasn't news (ie. the CRU didn't just "suddenly" come out with that explanation), but has been well known for anyone who has followed the debate, since at least 2007. The whole speculation on data deletion is also nonsense, since that "deletion" took place in the '80s (where data-storage really was a sparse resource (i still remember the excitement about exchanging our 1.2 MW harddisk storage to 10MB ones :))). --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 02:26, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Oh I remember those things. They looked a bit like dustbin lids produced by a toy manufacturer. And then there were those cute little spools of DECtape. --TS 05:20, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

You kids don't appreciate how good you had it. I remember setting up some data analysis on a PDP-11 variant and having to swap memory to floppy disk. And we were thankful for it. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 05:36, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Jones email of 2 February 2005

A 2 February 2005 email from Phil Jones to Michael Mann includes:

"And don't leave stuff lying around on ftp sites - you never know who is trawling them. The two MMs have been after the CRU station data for years. If they ever hear there is a Freedom of Information Act now in the UK, I think I'll delete the file rather than send to anyone. Does your similar act in the US force you to respond to enquiries within 20 days?—our does! The UK works on precedents, so the first request will test it. We also have a data protection act, which I will hide behind.[15]

Pro-Vice Chancellor of Research at CRU, Trevor Davies, said that no data was deleted or "otherwise dealt with in any fashion with the intent of preventing the disclosure".[16] In response to allegations that CRU avoided obligations under the Freedom of Information Act, independent investigator Muir Russell plans to review CRU's "policies and practices regarding requests under the Freedom of Information Act".[17]

Earlier version + Jones / Schmidt email

A 2 February 2005 email from Phil Jones to Michael Mann includes:

"And don't leave stuff lying around on ftp sites - you never know who is trawling them. The two MMs have been after the CRU station data for years. If they ever hear there is a Freedom of Information Act now in the UK, I think I'll delete the file rather than send to anyone. Does your similar act in the US force you to respond to enquiries within 20 days?—our does! The UK works on precedents, so the first request will test it. We also have a data protection act, which I will hide behind.

Dr.Jones' reluctance to provide data as a result of Freedom of Information Acts is later highlighted in an August 2008 email to Gavin Schmidt of NASA's Goddard Institute for Space Studies where he wrote,

"The FOI line we're all using is this, IPCC is exempt from any countries FOI—the skeptics have been told this. Even though we ... possibly hold relevant info the IPCC is not part of our remit (mission statement, aims etc) therefore we don't have an obligation to pass it on."

Pro-Vice Chancellor of Research at CRU, Trevor Davies, said that no data was deleted or "otherwise dealt with in any fashion with the intent of preventing the disclosure".[18] In response to allegations that CRU avoided obligations under the Freedom of Information Act, independent investigator Muir Russell plans to review CRU's "policies and practices regarding requests under the Freedom of Information Act".[19]

"This article is not..."

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Please see the formal move proposal for further developments.

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I see this phrase (or variations of it) repeatedly in the talk page here: this article is not about the scandal/controversy/backlash/purple dinosaur regarding the science that may or may not have been impacted by the actions of the Climate Research Unit. The title makes that very clear, actually: "Climate Research Unit e-mail hacking incident" is definitely about the actual hacking incident. If the article were about something else, it would be named something else, right?

But I wonder: why is there not an article named something else? Should Wikipedia not be covering the other angle, perhaps in another (appropriately named) article? Instead of a redirect at "Climategate," perhaps an actual article on Climategate--as opposed to an article that seems to be focused only on the alleged computer crime targeting CRU?

...But, then, I just pulled this copypasta from the bottom of the article:

Categories: Climate change assessment and attribution | Environmental controversies | Climate change | Global warming | Environmental skepticism | Ethics of science and technology | Computer security | 2009 in science | 2009 in England

Strange that an article focusing entirely on cyber crime and not on the political or scientific impact of these events is filed under these headings instead of under something relating to cyber crime or technology.

J.M. Archer (talk) 16:20, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Archer884, this is the trick used on all climate articles. The name is selected so that it refers only to the part of the story the cartel of editors who control climate articles wish to discuss. The sources for those articles are then strictly controlled so as only to include the sources which reflect the view they wish to include, and if anyone contrary to their views is stupid enough to edit the article or create a new one, they will get some friendly admins to lock down the article, or use the 3RR rule to get people banned. It's clearly the same principle used to lock down the peer review process in climate "science", and to exclude delegates who might argue from conferences - so there's clearly a single "mindset" involved. 85.210.48.2 (talk) 20:17, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Excellent point! Recommend we rename article to "Why 'Climatic' and not 'Climate'?" -- Scjessey (talk) 20:22, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Simple: let's name the article "Climatic Research Unit e-mail hacking controversy". That's what it is about. "Climategate" would also be OK, if that's what people call it. GregorB (talk) 16:57, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Sigh. Let's recap. Article names are expected to exhibit the highest degree of neutrality to satisfy Wikipedia's neutral point of view requirements. The use of "scandal" or "-gate" frequently implies wrongdoing or a particular point of view. Such terms are words to avoid, as is "controversy", and should not be used in article titles. Climategate is a redirect to this article, so users typing that in the search box will be directed here. Whatever else this article is going to be called, it certainly won't end up being called "Climategate". -- ChrisO (talk) 17:17, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

But I'd say that "a discussion marked especially by the expression of opposing views" (i.e. a "controversy") describes it rather well. GregorB (talk) 17:20, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

We can't use 'Climategate' as the name of the article because of WP:AVOID. However, we can use the word 'controversy' if it's used by reliable sources. The following reliable sources all use the term 'controversy': The Times, Washington Post, Time Magazine, US News & World Report, TechNewsWorld, The Star, Mail & Guardian, Scientific American, Live Science, Politico, Irish Times, St Petersburg Times, Sidney Morning Herald, Seattle Times,New York Times, Chicago Tribune, Reuters, Wallstreet Journal, The Guardian, Los Angeles Times, Christian Science Monitor, San Francisco Chronicle, FOX News, The Boston Globe, Business Week, Forbes, MSNBC, The Miami Herald, The Scotsman, Cosmos Magazine, CNBC, New Zealand Herald and BBC News

So, I suggest 'Climatic Research Unit e-mail controversy' or 'Climatic Research Unit documents controversy'. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 18:01, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

You could be even more neutral and simply call it "Climatic Research Unit documents incident", since the "controversy" is still an undesirable word. -- Scjessey (talk) 18:54, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

To me, 'incident' implies a one-time event, whereas this subject is actually an ongoing story. Also, someone else brought up the precident of Killian documents controversy. But this isn't an issue I feel too strongly about. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 19:14, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

I like either "Climatic Research Unit documents incident" or "Climatic Research Unit documents controversy". "Documents" avoid the concern over the option "data". And while it will be an ongoing story, as far as we know the story emanates from a single incident. So I could accept either "incident" or ""controversy".--SPhilbrickT 20:29, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

It's a hacking incident. Attempting to hide that fact of the hacking, and the criminal investigations that have resulted, won't succeed. --TS 22:06, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Again pointing out the bizarre contradiction between your vehement opposition to a fork and equally vehement opposition to the inclusion in this article of anything which detracts from the "hacking incident." Drolz (talk) 23:22, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

There's no contradiction. POVFORKS are discouraged, and accurate titles describing the topic are encouraged. Please offer your informed opinion on the title of this article, rather than the positions of other editors. This isn't a debating club. We're only here to improve the article. Viriditas (talk) 23:30, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

After having read WP:POVFORK, it is clear that you are using the term incorrectly. POVFORKs occur when one perspective on an event is given its own article. This is not what has been advocated here; the suggestion is that one aspect of event be given its own article. If someone wanted to make an article called "Skeptical Response to Climategate," this would indeed be a POVFORK. "Debate over CRU Documents," on the other hand, is completely neutral.

For example, "Watergate Burglaries" is a separate topic from "Watergate," because the burglaries themselves are a distinct topic from the ensuing coverup. On the other hand, in the Pentagon Papers page, there is no separate article for the leak itself, which is covered only briefly in the main article. This article needs to either be split into two, or the hack portion needs to be scaled down so that it does not compete for attention with the controversy section. Drolz (talk) 01:17, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

No, you are confusing the concept of splitting a subarticle out of a parent topic with the idea of a POVFORK which you are still defending and promoting against consensus. We have discussed it several times now and the answer is still no. Stamping your feet and screaming in bold isn't going to change it. Neither is using your user page as a platform to attack your perceived opponents. If you want to make some headway on your proposal and give other users an idea of what you are talking about and how you would go about doing it, then I recommend creating a version of the article you want to see in your user space and linking to it here for people to review. This is also a good way to get feedback on your proposal, and it might even influence the structure and layout of the current article. So, you've got your work cut out for you. Good luck. Viriditas (talk) 02:12, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

So I give you an explanation of why it's not a POVFORK, and you respond that it is a POVFORK because you already said it's a POVFORK? Why would I take the time I make a proof of concept page when your "consensus" has adamantly refused to hear any arguments against it? Drolz⁰⁹ 03:34, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

You confused the concept of a daughter article (see Wikipedia:Summary style) with that of a POVFORK. They are not the same thing. The reason you would take the time to work on your proposal in your user space, is because that's what we do on Wikipedia. Once you have an example of your preferred version, we can either decide on whether to create it or to merge it into the current version, exactly as you have proposed above. I look forward to seeing it. Viriditas (talk) 04:10, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

I would like to see a broader article here -- and that is being prevented two ways:

1. Saying that anything that falls outside the scope of the article title is inappropriate (as Archer pointed out at the top of this section)
2. Resisting changing the article title to something that will allow a broader article.

Now, to be honest, I could care less about what the title of the article is, but I would like to see the article broadened. Specifically, the controversy that has ensued -- whether it is a factually supported controversy or a controversy masterminded by Glenn Beck and right wing lemmings, I simply do not care -- it has been evident through this talk page that if this page is not the place to discuss the controversy then perhaps it should have its own, leaving this page to discuss simply the hacking (and lets be honest, every RS I've read has reported it as hacking, not a release or a leak) incident.

The problem with broadening the article, it seems, is that editors have used one of the two tricks (not tricks like the everyday, commonplace, use of the word, but tricks as defined by Mann :-) ) to restrict that content. Now I am assuming good faith and that the edits, which technically fell outside the scope of the title and the article were indeed just that, outside the scope of the title and the article and thus removing the content seems logical.

My question is this, would these editors have a problem with a page separate from "Climate Research Unit e-mail hacking incident" (this page) called something like one of the following where these discussions that fall outside the scope of the hacking incident can take place? (Please don't nitpick about my decision to use "Controversy", the spirit of my question should be clear.)

• Climate Research Unit Controversy
• Climate Research Unit Email Controversy
• Climate Research Unit Research Method Controversy

Thoughts? jheiv (talk) 03:01, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Removed per BLP

We do not report speculation regrading living people where that could adversely affect them. I have removed[20] the section regarding the Jones email of Feb 2. If the section can be rewritten to avoid reporting speculation as to identities, and it is found to be relevant to this article, it can go back in. Until then, the section remains out of the article.

I am horrified and ashamed of Wikipedia editors for allowing such base smears into an article. I will enforce BLP. Puppy has spoken. KillerChihuahua^?!?Advice 17:18, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

First time I've seen a puppy administer a spanking rather than receiving one... But I do agree. Is there actually any confirmation, as opposed to speculation, that "the two MMs" refer to McIntyre and McKitrick? -- ChrisO (talk) 17:20, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Wow - Madman restored that? Sure, no one is required to agree with me, but I can't just restore a BLP violation - or an alleged BLP violation - without bothering to join the discussion and build consensus for your edit. Shockingly bad behaviour. Guettarda (talk) 17:42, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Allow me to be a little more specific. There have been death threats. We're not going to be a party to this. Real life harm is possible. This is beyond "hurt feelings" or even "destroyed career". HTH. KillerChihuahua^?!?Advice 17:34, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Hmm, hadn't even thought about it in those terms. Yeah, death threats does raise the bar, doesn't it? Guettarda (talk) 17:42, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

You're damn right it does. KillerChihuahua^?!?Advice 17:55, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Is this a joke? First of all, please elaborate on how the removed content violated WP:BLP. Secondly, your argument regarding death threats is not a logical argument, but rather a fallacy, an appeal to emotion or fear. The enormous amount of reliable sources for the removed material (not to mention to extremely short amount of time that the passage existed in the article) suggest that if death threats were made, they were not as a result of a Wikipedia article. Saying that "death threats were made" and that that somehow changes what is topical and relevant to the article shows extreme bias. Address specific concerns rather than broad, waive-of-the-hand violations. jheiv (talk) 18:15, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

While the "OMG death threat" argument seems a bit overblown, it seems clear that the identities of the MMs are not well-established in the least, and are pure speculation and therefore have no place in the article. MarkNau (talk) 18:19, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Specifically: WP:GRAPEVINE, WP:BLP#Presumption in favor of privacy, WP:BLPNAME. I remind all editors that when dealing with BLP the default is to do no harm: to not include. To edit war over something removed p0er BLP is a block-on-sight offense and I cannot believe you are taking this so lightly. KillerChihuahua^?!?Advice 18:22, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

I think you are overreacting a little. McIntyre and McKitrick are hardly low-profile individuals. The statement is not negative toward them. The statement isn't unsourced. If this were a negative, unsourced statement about a low-profile individual, I'd be with you 100%. But that isn't the case. Yes we should err on the side of being conservative, and you make a strong enough argument for removing the content, but it isn't quite as clear cut or outrageous as you are making out. Gigs (talk) 18:34, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

It's not a WP:BLP violation if we cite reliable sources. Is anyone seriously suggesting that the Wallstreet Journal, MSNBC and Bloomberg aren't reliable sources? In any case, as a compromise why don't we simply drop the sentence "The two MMs are suggested to be ... later emails." and leave the rest of the paragraph intact? This addresses your concerns, does it not? A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 18:11, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

You are in error. We can violate BLP while citing RS's. I will leave to discussion amongst other editors as to whether your suggested compromise is acceptable. But don't remotely think I won't block if "suspected" names or other speculative BLP content is put in the article, regardless of where it is sourced. Remember, the default is to omit, not include, such information. You have to gain consensus to include. KillerChihuahua^?!?Advice 18:19, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

I've read WP:GRAPEVINE, WP:BLP#Presumption in favor of privacy, WP:BLPNAME and I don't agree that they apply to this particular situation. However, I'm fine with removing the contentious sentence just to be on the safe side. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 18:42, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

I agree with AQFK. The policies in question are intended to prevent the spreading of rumors or libel. Something the subject of BLP wrote himself is facially exempt from either claim. Moreover, reporting allegations which were made by reliable, reputable sources is explicitly encouraged, even if the subject objects. Drolz (talk) 21:07, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

KillerChihuahua is correct. Attributions of negative connotations in this article can have very serious consequences, and yes, the death threats do make the BLP more important here. We also must bear in mind that we can spend months, even years writing this article. This isn't a newspaper and we have no deadlines. We can wait until we can get it right. --TS 21:45, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

We've jumped the shark to argue so hotly that there's a BLP problem here. The quote is reliably sourced multiple times, highly relevant, and highly notable, so it would be a gross violation of Wikipedia standards to keep it out. The only problem with the quote is that the RSs more than "suggest" that MM is McKitrick and McIntyre: "Another e-mail sent by Mann identifies MM as “McIntyre and McKitrick" is what Bloomberg says. Forbes Cringing Over Climategate, which should be added as a reference, says of the quote, "The "two MMs" refers to Canadian researchers Stephen McIntyre and Ross McKitrick." So the quote should be left as is and the interpretation should be "is" rather than "suggest." The quote itself is highly notable, highly relevant, and very reliably sourced. To give some indication as to notability, besides the many media reports of the quote, Google reveals about 10,000 instances of the quote "The two MMs have been after the CRU station data for years" on the Internet, mostly in blogs. This and several other quotes from the CRU emails and code comments are among the most widely repeated quotes on the planet for the last several weeks.Flegelpuss (talk) 09:01, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Palin quote

The use of copyright material in articles is governed by WP:NFCC and fair use. Please note that simply reproducing copyright material in an article, without any discussion, does not meet the requirement of fair use, nor does it meet our requirements for the use of non-free content. Guettarda (talk) 18:30, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

It's an excerpt of less than 100 words. The usual guidelines I've seen for fair use suggest a maximum of 150 words. This is well under the limit. I suspect that it's the content, and the name of the author in particular, that's really drawing so many objections. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 18:32, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

You need to assume good faith when dealing with other editors. Fair use does not mean that you can simply reproduce copyright material of <150 words, it needs to be done for "such as for commentary, criticism, news reporting, research, teaching or scholarship". Simple reproduction of a quote, without discussion of its significance or meaning, does not meet that requirement. Guettarda (talk) 18:36, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Well, it's clearly commentary and criticism, Guettarda. Sarah Palin is eminently notable, the Washington Post is eminently reliable, and the comment gives voice to the climate change skeptics. If you don't mind, I'm moving this from my User Talk page to the article's Talk page, where it belongs. Skoal. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 18:41, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

We need to provide our own commentary. So we need to have someone commenting on Palin commenting in order to qualify for fair use of a quote that extensive. A very small quote would be different. Gigs (talk) 18:46, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

How do you feel about five or six words from Al Gore? Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 19:04, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

I don't think his comments are relevant either, but at least he as some semblance of credibility in this particular field. -- Scjessey (talk) 19:07, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

What?? Gore won a Nobel Prize for his work on this subject. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 19:15, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

You mean that PowerPoint presentation filled with other's (now discovered to be fake) research? Laughable.64.53.136.29 (talk) 05:39, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

We shouldn't be including an editorial commentary in an encyclopedia entry. It's also not clear to me how prominent she is on the global scheme of things, so it's difficult for me to say that she's clearly prominent enough to warrant inclusion of her reaction. MarkNau (talk) 19:00, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

The most recent poll shows Palin as the front-runner for the Republican presidential nomination in 2012. Every time she opens her mouth in public, some reporter in the United States is writing about it. Furthermore, there are editorial commentaries in about half of Wikipedia's politics articles. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 19:04, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

To be fair, Sarah Palin is notable as being both a failed VP candidate and as a governor who quit mid-term so she could make some big bucks selling books to sheep. She is not even remotely qualified to offer her opinion on any aspect of this incident. The newspaper has been vilified for giving her a platform to spout her fringey nonsense. I can conceive of no possible way that a single word of her op-ed will make it into this article, quite frankly. It would be the grossest possible violation of WP:WEIGHT and WP:FRINGE. -- Scjessey (talk) 19:05, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

I don't think she's prominent on the issue. Inhofe is prominent, even if he seems to be wrong on just about everything. Gibbs is speaking for the US President, Ban Ki Moon is speaking as UN Secretary General - they're opinions are notable. Palin is a private citizen (at this point), she's not an authority on the subject, and she's not a person with a history of involvement in the issue. Guettarda (talk) 19:06, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Eminently untrue, Guettarda. Palin sued the federal government for placing the polar bear on the Endangered Species list. She has been involved in numerous disputes as governor, involving issues related to climate and conservation. Scjessey's usual disparaging remarks about anyone to the right of Howard Zinn are duly noted. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 19:10, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Quoting Sarah Palin on the subject of climate change is like quoting Orly Taitz as an authority on citizenship law. -- ChrisO (talk) 20:41, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Again, let's examine both notability and the section header. Running Nexis searches on Palin and Taitz yields about 20 times as many hits for Palin, and Taitz has never been elected to any office. The comparison is ridiculous. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 21:18, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Just to give everyone some background information about this article - In an effort to cut back on POV-pushing and to address WP:UNDUE, me and several other editors have argued that we should avoid mentioning opinion pieces unless they've also been covered by a third-party reliable sources. In a case such as this, it shouldn't be a problem to find third-party reliables sources which have covered this op-ed. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 19:06, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

How about Al Gore quoted at MSNBC? Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 19:08, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Well, in my opinion, now you're "in." A section that talks about the differing reactions between Gore and Palin seems fitting with the rest of the section. To be honest, Palin rides in on Gore's coattails. MarkNau (talk) 19:17, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

I'm just generally opposed to quoting politicians, since they rarely know what they are talking about. They lack the technical understanding to comment on the data theft, and they lack the scientific understanding to comment on the climate change issue. All their hot air contributes to global warming, quite frankly. -- Scjessey (talk) 19:19, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Then why not delete the entire section? It's supposed to be limited to comments from politicians, but somehow Ban Ki-moon finds his way in there. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 19:30, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Ban Ki-moon isn't just a politician, he's the sponsor of the IPCC and the current climate change talks. He's a key figure in the politics of climate change. -- ChrisO (talk) 20:46, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Gore is an exception to the "lack of knowledge" thing. He actually knows his stuff, not just the talking points. But I still think it's premature to bring him in. When this grows into an actual article, as opposed to a collection of quotes, then we need to re-assess things. But as long as it's just a dumping ground for quotes, I don't see the value in adding him. Guettarda (talk) 19:28, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Al Gore, like George Monbiot, is essentialy a pundit, an advocate. If we keep the pundits at arm's length and focus on reactions within the sphere of professional scientists, elected politicians, governments and other relevant experts, I think we get a good look at the facts. The more we look at the words of pundits--even quite clever and well educated ones, I feel the more we're seeing a reflection of the self-regarding, self-feeding press coverage that has made the facts so difficult to isolate in this affair.

I think it's a pity that Palin resigned. As the governor of Alaska her opinion might have been interesting and influential. --TS 22:20, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Well, there's no doubt that she's a politician, and I'll repeat that she's the current front-runner for the Republican presidential nomination in 2012. So why are we limiting commentary to current office holders? Is it because that conveniently excludes comments from a lot of very prominent skeptics, such as Lawson and Palin? And why are we including the comment from the RealClimate blog, but blocking any comment from someone who may be the next president of the United States? Currently the ratio of comments is (roughly) 21 apologists to 3 skeptics. Furthermore, the quotes from apologists are generally a lot longer than the quotes from skeptics, so the ratio of total commentary (words) is roughly 20 to 1. It's difficult to imagine a more biased selection of comments. Any thoughts on how we could correct this imbalance? Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 22:37, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Why are we limiting to current elected officerholders? Because they are thereby qualified to act on their stated opinions. Office makes a difference. Of course every politician in the world has an opinion on this so we do have to apply a sensible limit.

Why so few sceptics? Because, in the field of climatology, there are very, very few global warming sceptics. On this very page we've had people fishing around for retired geography lecturers, and representing them as prominent climatology researchers. It isn't an imbalance, it's the way it is. --TS 22:48, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Apologists? We have quotes from apologists? Guettarda (talk) 22:55, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

I find it rather amusing that proponents of the scientific mainstream are being called "apologists". Should we also refer to "evolution apologists"? "Germ theory apologists"? "Round earth apologists"? -- ChrisO (talk) 00:53, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Apologetics is the defense of Christianity. I didn't know that there were 20 defenders of Christianity for each climate "skeptic". Guettarda (talk) 02:05, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

As Palin is the most well-known and well-loved (and well-hated) Republican right now, her opinion is highly notable. Gore, not so much, because he's a political has-been. The Palin quote is highly notable, extremely relevant, very well sourced, clearly well within fair use, and is required because of undue weight put on quotes from Democrats.Flegelpuss (talk) 09:20, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Palin's opinion on this topic is not notable, and it is beyond question that Gore's is due to his work on the topic. I doubt Palin can even spell "anthropogenic" let alone pronounce it. Viriditas (talk) 09:48, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Very well. Then we must state that the emails are "more than 10 years old" according to expert Al Gore. He said it at least twice, so he clearly has no trouble pronouncing it. AFP Slate, CNN video "more%20than%2010%20years%20old"&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wn Google News search. -- SEWilco (talk) 05:08, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

UN SecGen Prominence

I would like to hear the serious argument that the SecGen of the UN is not a highly prominent figure, particularly on a global issue, and particularly given the direct pertinence of the Copenhagen summit, which is a UN event. MarkNau (talk) 19:22, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Sure. The name of the section is "Politicians and governments," formerly "Elected officials and governments." Ban Ki-moon is not a politician or an elected official. The UN is not a govenrment. Running a Google News or Nexus search on the names of Ban Ki-moon and Sarah Palin produces three times as many hits for Palin. If Ban Ki-moon's comments belong in this section, then Palin's certainly do. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 19:27, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

The UN is an inter-governmental organisation, the BIG one. It's close enough. Guettarda (talk) 19:30, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

And Ban Ki-moon was elected by the General Assembly of the United Nations, so you could argue he is an elected official of sorts. Palin isn't anything at the moment. Probably won't be anything, either. -- Scjessey (talk) 19:31, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

If Obama keep plunging in the polls -- currently below 50% and only one point higher than Palin, who's rising in the polls -- she could very well be elected president in 2012. It's clear that you find her politics distasteful, but I prefer to deal in facts, not feelings. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 19:47, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

If and when Palin is elected US President, then her views will take on appropriate significance. Given that she hasn't even annouced her candicacy, however, that's an issue for the future Nil Einne (talk) 04:19, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

So former governors cease to be politicians? How... original. I've no problem on Ban Ki-Moon being quoted but removing Palin on the grounds that she's not currently holding office is not justified. TMLutas (talk) 22:01, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Take a read of politician. If she were still seeking office, she would still be a politician. But the fact she is not at this time, and doesn't hold any political position means she is not currently a politician anymore then say Bill Clinton, Geoge W. Bush, Al Gore, Bill Frist or Ted Stevens are Nil Einne (talk) 06:03, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

So after Senator Clinton was re-elected after promising that she'd serve her term, she was no longer a politician because she wasn't running for President in 2008? -- SEWilco (talk) 04:48, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

The Ban Ki-Moon quote is OK with me as well. The UN is a major player in the politics surrounding this issue, and is governmental enough. Gigs (talk) 19:36, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

(ec)Good point, though I don't think Sepp Blatter's opinion should be quoted, if he expresses on. Guettarda (talk) 19:37, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Let me lead by saying that I'm all for the "no politicians commenting on anything they are not experts in," so my #1 preference would be for section deletion. That aside, here's a litmis test for inclusion and ordering: If you were to grab a random wikipedian who wants useful info on this topic, and say "I'm only going to give you one reaction quote on this incident. I've got the SecGen of the UN and I've got the Saudi climate negotiator," which quote would the wikipedian want? MarkNau (talk) 20:00, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you're getting at, but I'd want both. Perhaps from a practical point of view the Secretary General might have more influence, but the view of the Saudi would be a good illustration of how oil producing countries are reacting to the affair. --TS 21:21, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

The context was an editor who was seemingly insistent upon a position that posited the SecGen wasn't significant, and the Saudi should be at the top of the list. Seemed absurd, and I wanted a way to illustrate that. I agree with you that if I could get both, I would. Although the Saudi is quite marginal IMO. MarkNau (talk) 01:33, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Well, only one oil producer. I haven't seen responses from any other OPEC nations. -- ChrisO (talk) 01:20, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Historically it's been the Saudis who have raked over every word and punctuation character of the IPCC reports. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 05:23, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

There is already a quote from the head of the UN IPCC, so a quote from the head of the UN itself is redundant and gives that organization undue weight.Flegelpuss (talk) 09:40, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Editors read WP:RS please

This edit featured "scandal" language and sourcing from "climatechangefraud.com". I reverted it. I doubt there will be any objections. -- Scjessey (talk) 20:26, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Any objection to using this source instead? Or perhaps this one? Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 20:38, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

It depends on whether or not it comes with the disgraceful color commentary JettaMan added. I cannot see how Nigel Lawson's opinion is relevant, however. -- Scjessey (talk) 20:42, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

I see you completely ignored my comment about Nigel Lawson. Recommend you self-revert. -- Scjessey (talk) 20:54, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Without that edit, the commentary we've quoted is overwhelmingly in favor of whitewashing Climategate and having the hacker sent to prison. That violates WP:WEIGHT and WP:NPOV. Personally, I'm in favor of including both the Palin quote and the Lawson quote, since that would balance this section out nicely, but I'll settle for one or the other. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 21:03, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Obviously nobody is saying that hackers shouldn't be prosecuted for their crimes. That isn't the same as whitewashing the incident--quite the reverse. As for the "Climategate" fuss, it's too early to say whether it will have a lasting effect on the politics of global warming. --TS 21:07, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

After a thorough review of all the "reaction" quotes, including the climatologists and so forth, it's easy to see why the article has a "neutrality of this article is disputed" template. It would be hard to imagine a more biased selection of quotes, gentlemen. More quotes from climate change skeptics and less from the apologists are in order, from the world of climatology and the world of politics -- since this article is at the intersection. Skoal. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 21:12, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Feel free to suggest some comments on the matter from appropriately qualified sceptics. Everybody and his dog has an opinion on this issue, but informed comment is needed to draw out the facts of the affair. --TS 21:18, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Well, let's talk about Dr. Tim Ball. An eminent climatologist and climate change skeptic, former colleague of Jones and Mann, confirms that his views have been suppressed. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 21:21, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

You mean this fellow? What has he been saying about the affair? He is, I hope you realise, a retired geography lecturer. --TS 21:31, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

But Tony, as someone said here yesterday, apparently he singlehandedly invented climatology or something! Entirely on his own. In his garage. I think he was trying to put bubbles into beer or something. Guettarda (talk) 22:45, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

I'll put in my 2 cents in for nonprosecution because nobody's bothered to demonstrate that there's been a crime. They might never be found but if found, there might never be a prosecution because of prosecutorial discretion, whistleblower protection, or the same doctrine of necessity that got those greenpeace powerplant protesters off recently on charges of physical vandalism, etc. Crimes are a matter for the relevant jurisdiction's legal code and prosecutorial staff. Allegations of criminality without any sort of prosecutorial statement or actual charges need to be considered in light of WP:BLP. Right now a criminal investigation is ongoing. That deserves mention but no jumping to conclusions in advance of the prosecutors would be a prudent policy. TMLutas (talk) 21:57, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

FAQ Q5. --TS 22:03, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

There's a FAQ? Oops, I missed it. Maybe it should be set to "expanded" by default? Guettarda (talk) 22:48, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, the Norfolk Constabulary statement does not mean that there was a theft. It means that they think that there was a crime committed by somebody. Alleged theft is appropriate at this stage of an investigation. There have been no charges, no John Doe warrants, no statements or conclusions other than they are looking into the events. The FAQ should be modified as it asserts as settled what is not settled. I've seen the howling mob in the Duke rape case. There were convictions in the end, but in an entirely unexpected direction with the prosecutor being disbarred and charged. And even at the height of the howling mob, media was constrained to say "alleged rape". We have much fewer facts than we did in the Duke case but people are confident saying it is theft, it is hacking, etc. Disgraceful. TMLutas (talk) 00:50, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Come on, this is a silly argument. The UEA has stated definitively that it was a theft. It is the owner of the stolen files. It is the only party in a position to say whether the files were taken with its consent. That's an either-or proposition: either the files were taken with consent or without. If without, as the UEA has said, then it was a theft, as the UEA has said. Reliable sources have consistently described this unambiguously as a theft. If this was a bank robbery, do you think people would be disputing whether the bank's money had been stolen? Of course not. The only reason there is any dispute of any sort on this issue is because some people have an ideological interest in denying the fact of the theft. Though I suppose if one is intent on denying big things like mainstream science, denying small things is easy to do. -- ChrisO (talk) 01:31, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

The UEA's opinion is interested, it is far from definitive. If or when an independent investigative body or a judge or a jury says a theft occurred, then it will be definitive. Until there is an indictment or similar independent process that reaches the conclusion it's just malicious speculation. The article can only properly say that UEA claims there was a theft or a hack, not that there was in fact a theft or a hack. We shouldn't be using Wikipedia to play judge, jury, and executioner in the court of public opinion based solely on the word of an interested party.Flegelpuss (talk) 09:34, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

The UEA could conceivably be described as an interested party but the police are not. They're the ones saying they're investigating criminal offences. --TS 17:03, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

The operative word here is "investigating". The police do not claim that it was a hack or a theft, they are merely investigating UEA's allegation that is was such. Our article should not state it for a fact either.Flegelpuss (talk) 05:41, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

Are you suggesting that the alternative to saying "hacked e-mail" in this case should be "e-mails released through unknown means, allegedly hacking"? Because saying the "allegedly hacked emails" seems to give the wrong idea. To be honest though, I'm really not sure this is a huge issue, I certainly wouldn't put it on my top 5 list of items to improve on this page. I suggest we focus on the real issues, perhaps ensuring the quotes in the article (as a whole) meet WP:WEIGHT and WP:NPOV as Phoenix and Winslow mentioned earlier this section. jheiv (talk) 06:02, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

1,700 UK scientists back climate science

• 1,700 UK scientists back climate science, Associate Press, Raphael G. Satter. -Atmoz (talk) 20:42, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Already in the article, under "Climatologists". I added it last night. -- ChrisO (talk) 20:44, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

I was tempted to revert the removal of the duplicate header, since 1,700 X 2 = 3,400! -- Scjessey (talk) 20:45, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Since last night?!? GNews says the article is only 4 hours old. I demand that you recuse yourself from this article because you clearly have inside information and a conflict of interest and (insert list of other non-relevant policies here)! Plus, it's 1700 in the UK. If you add US scientists, I'm sure you'd get more than 3400. (That's my little original research for today.) -Atmoz (talk) 20:52, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Don't trust Google News' publication times. :-) It was published in this morning's Times, which went up on the Web around 00:30 this morning in the UK (just before I went to bed). -- ChrisO (talk) 21:05, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Ah, the Durban Declaration of climate change. MastCell ^Talk 21:44, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Kind of, and probably worth mentioning elsewhere as well. -- ChrisO (talk) 21:48, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Note that the Times article seems to exist in various forms, with one version [21] as of now saying "One scientist said that he felt under pressure to sign the circular or risk losing work. The Met Office admitted that many of the signatories did not work on climate change." Another version says "One scientist told The Times he felt under pressure to sign. “The Met Office is a major employer of scientists and has long had a policy of only appointing and working with those who subscribe to their views on man-made global warming,” he said." Messy. Jonathan A Jones (talk) 22:29, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Maybe we'd better wait until The Times gets its story straight. --TS 22:54, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

We should certainly keep an eye on this. Given the speed with which these names were assembled there are bound to be some oddities among them. Jonathan A Jones (talk) 23:29, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

I'm definitely not in favor of including this in the article. We don't know much about the provenance of the list, and the signs are not good. It does not at this stage represent a reliable report of support for the CRU scientists, because there's as yet no way of knowing how voluntary the signing was and how qualified each person was to make the statement (I imagine most were not much above doctorate level and few had any experience of climate research, but that's a pure guess). --TS 00:29, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

There aren't 1,700 climate scientists in the UK. This is a petition of support by scientists, generally, so its relevance is limited. The call was sent out widely; I heard about it but it doesn't apply to me as I'm not a natural scientist (i.e. I'm a social scientist, not an unnatural scientist ;-) ). As for pressure to sign it - honestly! If you are grown up enough to do research you are grown up enough to resist attempts to make you sign a voluntary petition. But I agree that we just wait until the news reports settle down. Itsmejudith (talk) 13:52, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

That was a loyalty oath. --Dave McK 02:32, 12 December 2009 (PST)

Note that 1700 scientists have affirmed the outcome of the investigation before it has been conducted. This is second nature to them, apparently. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.194.172.210 (talk) 10:33, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

30,000 scientists support ditching the Kyoto Protocol (it's a fraud)

30,000 scientists support ditching the Kyoto Protocol ... and ...

Physics group sharply divided over global warming review in the wake of the Climategate scandal. This is posted solely for the benefit of those who claim that there's a consensus, and that divergent views are scarce in the scientific community. The conflict of interest is fully exposed: a scientist who gets over $1 million a year in climate change research grants, and has warned of possible "catastrophic consequences" of climate change, is in charge of reviewing the organization's statement about climate change. Other scientists are calling him on it. Let's no longer pretend that the global warming apologists make up 95% of the scientific community and the other 5% are moonbats. There are several good quotes from climatologists that can be mined from these two reliable sources. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 16:53, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

This is far more notable than the petition signed by 1,700 scientists, seeing as there are 18 times (a factor of eighteen) more scientists signing on to it.Flegelpuss (talk) 05:49, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

The Oregon_Petition is a complete fraud promoted by creationists and cranks. It's been debunked so many times it's not even worth discussing. Give it a rest already. For more information see Climate Cover-Up: The Crusade to Deny Global Warming. Anyone who pushes this nonsense needs a serious reality check. Viriditas (talk) 06:05, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

The Declan McCullagh blog post doesn't amount to much - two or three people in a society which, according to our article, has 47,000 members. Anyway, it's a blog post, an opinion piece, not news reporting. And, of course, the Oregon Petition is well known nonsense. One more important point: "There are several good quotes ... that can be mined...". No. We don't quote mine. Guettarda (talk) 06:35, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

Yes, the Oregon Petition nonsense has been done to death. The APS matter seems to be a controversy manufactured by one or two opportunistic contrarians within the society. This is what you get when you go fishing in opinion blogs. Garbage In, Garbage Out. --TS 12:16, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

RealClimate bloggers' comment?????

Are you serious? You really want to open this article to commentary from bloggers? If that's the case, why not include commentary from Free Republic, Debbie Schlussel, Hugh Hewitt and World Net Daily? Do you see that you're opening an enormous can of worms by including a climate change apologist blog? Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 22:24, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Please see WP:SPS. Not all blogs are created equal. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 22:27, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

So what is it that makes RealClimate the only blog whose comments are allowed in the article? Does someone somehow believe that the number of apologists' comments is insufficient? Currently the ratio is (roughly) 21 apologists to three skeptics. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 22:32, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

It's not that they're the only blog allowed here, it's just that they happen to be highly qualified climate scientists. If there are other blogs by climatologists, we'd be just as happy to include their relevant opinions. RealClimate was also one of the sites hacked in the incident, so their reports on this affair are going to creep in now and again even on the hacking side of the story. --TS 22:41, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Yep, as Tony says - they're among the victims of the crime, both as individuals and as a website. Guettarda (talk) 22:43, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

I find it more than a little disturbing that a Wikipedia article about an event which clearly undercuts the credibility of "established science on the subject" is overwhelmingly dominated by shucking and jiving from the very same community of scientists whose credibility has been damaged. Some balance in the commentary, please. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 22:46, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

"[C]learly undercuts the credibility"? Only with people who "always knew it was fake". Guettarda (talk) 22:51, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

That simply isn't true. Take George Monbiot as a prominent example. And, for what it's worth, I believe climate change is real, and also believe that the credibility of these scientists has been undermined.--Heyitspeter (talk) 10:58, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

They're obviously a reasonable primary source for the subsidiary story of the hack attempt on their blog, but using thm more generally is less defensible, unless you're going to open up to, for example, [22], [23], and [24]. Regards, Jonathan A Jones (talk) 22:55, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

It's not clear to me that any of those blogs has quite the standing of RealClimate. MarkNau (talk) 23:00, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

It's not clear to me that we would be wise to attempt to make such distinctions. Using RealClimate with great caution (except where it's directly relevant) would therefore seem wise. Jonathan A Jones (talk) 23:27, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

The quoted article on RealClimate is signed "group," which strongly implies that it has the backing of Gavin Schmidt and Michael Mann, both of whom are highly qualified and reputable to speak on the issue of the meaning of the email excerpt. MarkNau (talk) 23:36, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

'an event which clearly undercuts the credibility of "established science on the subject" ' Oh for heaven's sake, that's what a few old warhorses like Lawson have said. It's not what they're saying in Copenhagen. --TS 22:53, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

"Clearly undercuts the credibility" is an overstatement. Likewise, to insist that the focus of the story is on the hacking crime and their victims is not supportable. The main issue of this incident is: What does the leaked information show, if anything, with regards to the methods of, and resultant data from, CRU. MarkNau (talk) 23:05, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

No, I don't think that's the story, because if it were it would have pretty much run its course. The only story that may exists here is whether they treated the whole FOIA issue improperly. The rest is all light, no heat. I'm guessing that the story is more about how long the deniers will continue to spin this, and whether the hackers will succeed in their attempt to undermine Copenhagen (and public support for science, in the longer term). Guettarda (talk) 23:14, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Guettarda, that doesn't seem anywhere close to a reasonable interpretation of what someone who comes to this page is looking for information on. You clearly want to dismiss the skeptics. I'm not debating whether they have a point. I'm saying the dispute is currently clearly over the meaning of the leaked information. MarkNau (talk) 23:24, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

At this point, the questions that have been raised about methods and results have been answered. Doesn't mean more might not come out, but for our purposes, at this point in time, that looks pretty settled. All light, no heat. The questions about the theft, the spin, and the impact, those are still developing. That's all I meant. Guettarda (talk) 23:51, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

It's not our place as Wikipedia editors to judge whether they have a point. It's our place to follow what the reliable sources are saying and right now, the reliable sources are saying that the climate change skeptics have gained ground, and the apologists have lost ground. The commentary should reflect what the reliable sources are saying. Instead, what we have here are (roughly) 21 lengthy comments from apologists saying "move on, nothing to see here, the criticisms are all rubbish" and three little snippets from skeptics saying "hold on." Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 23:29, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

The only facts the reliable sources are reporting at the moment are:

• documents were hacked
• accusations were made, some wild and some less wild
• most of the scientific community closed ranks behind the scientists; some however expressed concern
• an investigation of allegations against CRU scientists has been announced
• the hacking is being investigated
• death threats are being investigated.

Those are the facts that a reader should go away with. I think we're doing a pretty good job of that so far. --TS 00:06, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

I raised the issue of RealClimate's reliability at the WP:RSN. [25] A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 00:19, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

TS, your understanding of "fact" is way off. It is, for example, a fact that there have been widespread allegations of scientific misconduct relating to the emails. It is a fact that something called "Climategate" is being discussed in the media. It is a fact that "Climategate" has gotten more attention than the death threats received by some scientists, or the investigation into the security breach at CRU. It is a fact that there are specific arguments as to how the emails indicate misconduct. All of these facts warrant inclusion in an article about current events. If you don't want to include them, then you should just delete this entire article and not put it up again until well after the topic is established history. Drolz (talk) 01:38, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

I've described the "widespread allegations of scientific misconduct " above. My words may be different but the facts are the same, and we do cover those allegations, and the responses of those accused.

And we do mention the fact that some sources refer to the affair as "Climategate".

The amount of media attention a fact gets is not a good measure of the weight it should be given--to do so would be to equate the entire broader media to reliable sources. While there is an inquiry into the CRU allegations, there are several distinct criminal investigations into crimes committed against the scientists and the CRU. These are sourced unimpeachably. While there's been a lot of vague and often very poorly informed commentary on the CRU emails, this has been more than matched by a huge deluge of informed commentary that gives at the very least a more nuanced, and sometimes a complete refutation of the popular media chatter. Because we don't just count up articles indiscriminately, we track the facts and their appropriate weight better than the press.

We give appropriate weight to all of the facts. Just not the weight you would prefer. --TS 01:52, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

RealClimate is a blog, and is not a reliable source. The science is not peer reviewed, and the comments are often political. Let's stay out of that arena, and leave RealClimate to the blogosphere. Gherston (talk) 04:46, 11 December 2009 (UTC)— Gherston (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

"The amount of media attention a fact gets is not a good measure of the weight it should be given" Huh?? What?? The amount of coverage reliable sources give to a topic is exactly the weight that it should be given. If you disagree with policy and guidelines, take it up with the editors of those talk pages, not here. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 05:06, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Again, you're equating media mentions with reliable sources. Weighing column inches or numbers of articles doesn't help. If we'd gone down that route this article would all be about poorly researched accusations and very little expert opinion (which is definitively a reliable source) would have made it into the article. --TS 05:13, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Yes, that's exactly what WP:UNDUE says. You're free to disagree with WP:UNDUE, but this isn't the article to do that. You need to go to WP:UNDUE and get the editors there to change the guideline. After you get those editors to agree with you, then we can discuss changing the article. Until then, we follow WP:UNDUE A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 05:26, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

I won't argue with you about what neutral point of view says, because counting weight of ink and newsprint certainly isn't what it's about. I've no need to change it, either. --TS 05:30, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

That's exactly what WP:UNDUE says. Weight is supposed to be determined by its prominence in WP:RS. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 13:41, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

You're still equating newspaper articles with reliable sources. And we're going around in circles. --TS 13:47, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

AQFN, I think you need to go and have a look at WP:UNDUE: right under the bit you like, it says, "Now an important qualification:" and goes on to talk about flat earth. I know it was metaphorical, but that is exactly what you seem to be arguing here regarding Gordon Brown's mainstream political comments - see any article linked from [26] --Nigelj (talk) 14:16, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Climate Audit discusses climate science in far greater detail and with a far higher quality of discussion than RealClimate. To argue that RealClimate is RS and Climate Audit is not is seriously jumping the shark. Furthermore, that RealClimate members are central to this fiasco does not make them RS, it makes them extremely interested parties, not reliable except for claims stated as claims they make via reliable secondary sources. With regard to Climategate RealClimate is neither secondary nor reliable.Flegelpuss (talk) 09:50, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

As I've said before when the use of ClimateAudit as a reliable source has been raised, it's a blog maintained by a fellow whose sole qualifications for the purpose are a BSc in mathematics from the University of Toronto, a degree in philosophy, politics and economics from Oxford, and 30 years in mineral exploration. Stephen McIntyre isn't a climate scientist, which is odd because his blog's main claim to fame is its determinedly contrarian position on climate science. --TS 12:03, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

This isn't about the science itself, this is about the unethical practices of a group of scientists. This isn't a page on the CO2 content of core samples of arctic ice, this is a page about a current politically consequential event. We can't disqualify people on account of "not being scientists" on this page (though even if we did, McIntyre would qualify). You can't include RealClimate and exclude ClimateAudit on these grounds.

Nor can you keep one source and lose the other on account of hidden agendas, since both obviously have those.--Heyitspeter (talk) 12:13, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

The difference between RealClimate and Climate Audit is that the former is written by published professionals in the field. That is the sole reason for including Real Climate. --TS 14:37, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

Death Threats

Do you know about the death threats on Woodward and Berstein? Can you give me any details about them? How about death threats on Don Imus after he made his Rutger's remark? No. Know why? Because they are rather incosequential to the main stories. They existed, and yet nobody knows any of the details of them because the clear consensus among humanity is that they are at best secondary to the main stories. I just picked two random examples off the top of my head. Controversies like this are full of crazy ripple effects, but those ripple effects do not constitiute the main story (unless something significant happens.) Nobody is coming to this page to research the death threats. They want to know what was in the info, how it was gotten, who got it, and what they should make of that info. MarkNau (talk) 23:22, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Did the police or the FBI announce that they were investigating the death threats in question? Of course if they were serious, and were investigated, they should be in the Wikipedia article. Why do you want to remove this? These death threats, being investigated in multiple jurisdictions across two or three continents, are the most serious consequence. Scientists are in danger. --TS 23:46, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Your plea of "scientists are in danger" encapsulates why I think it has no place. This is not the place for a "cause," not the place to wave the banner, to issue a warning or a call to arms. The primary information pertinent to the subject is: "What happened, who did it, what is in those data, what does that mean, what is the state of things?" The lede should accurate summarize that to the best of its ability. The death threats are clearly not the main thrust of this incident. This seems crystal clear to me, and I look at other examples to verify that, to try to keep an objective perspective. MarkNau (talk) 23:54, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

On the contrary, these death threats are being presented as a consequence of the incident. They've attracted real world police investigation. They are both relevant and notable, at least at this point in time. Guettarda (talk) 00:03, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

I think it would be a useful and informative exercise to try to think of similar cases and see what happened in the wikipedia articles in question. I haven't done this yet, but it might be a way to help us resolve this. MarkNau (talk) 00:08, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

The lead makes this linkage clear enough - the university expressed concern "that personal information about individuals may have been compromised", which indeed it was, and the consequence of that compromise was that extremists started abusing and threatening the individuals named in the e-mails. -- ChrisO (talk) 00:10, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

That is original research, and ludicrous to boot. People in the public eye get death threats, especially ones who enter it suddenly. Do you expect the FBI to just come out and say, "No, we're not investigating it"? The hand-wringing on this issue is just getting more and more absurd. Drolz (talk) 01:41, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

I'd say there's no consensus for your change, MarkNau. Guettarda (talk) 00:05, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

I agree, but add that there is no consensus to add that information to the lede either. Continued discussion and good will! MarkNau (talk) 00:09, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

It's rather interesting how certain parties seem to want to whitewash this part of the story. I guess it gets in the way of presenting the scientists as villains. -- ChrisO (talk) 00:10, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

I'm not clear at all why Marknau would want these particular facts to be omitted. I'm also rather disturbed by the rhetoric being used to downplay the death threats. Are there some crimes that are of no consequence? Does the profession of the victim make a multi-continent crime investigation less important? --TS 00:20, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Apparently yes, if the targets are people whom a certain ideological group disapproves of. Think of abortion doctors for a similar example. -- ChrisO (talk) 00:28, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

That's a distasteful comparison, as would a comparison to the death threats against animal researchers. Those people are scientists too, so they obviously don't count if the climatologists don't count. Perhaps we should find some real people to compare them to. --TS 00:32, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Nasty batch of incivility there, guys. As a rule of thumb, if an outside observer of your edits can tell what your personal opinion is on the contentious part of a given topic, then you should doubt your own objectivity. Your personal positions are quite transparent. My own, I would wager, is quite mysterious. I suspect those on each side suspect me of being on the other. MarkNau (talk) 01:23, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Tony, did you just make 4 reverts in the last 3 hours? You are aware of WP:3RR, correct? [27][28][29][30]. Please quit your edit warring. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 01:03, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

I predict the edit warring on this article has stopped until 12 Dec. -Atmoz (talk) 01:11, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure he can be reported to WP:AN3 but I'm not sure I know how to do it. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 01:15, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

It does not matter, as one friendly admin is what it takes to escape this purgatory. I actually did report TS - not even a slap on the wrist. With admin on the Team side there is no chance of getting NPOV into this article. I will go on editing in the other articles, and let some folks continue their jihad unopposed. Dimawik (talk) 02:27, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Actually it's stopped until 25 December, since it's now been fully-protected again. -- ChrisO (talk) 01:16, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

The 14th, but I was figuring that some well-meaning admin was going to unprotect it before that. The tag is from the old sprot, and needs to be updated. -Atmoz (talk) 01:22, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Disappointing, it really needed to be protected for longer than that, not least so that some problem editors can be dealt with. -- ChrisO (talk) 01:23, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

But you're one of the problem editors. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 01:39, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

A bit pointless blocking me now. I was the one who asked for the article to be protected, because of the edit warring. --TS 01:18, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

You had the page blocked to prevent yourself from edit warring? Why not just simply stop reverting other people's edits? A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 01:24, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Why not stop removing content because you have a POV disagreement with it? The fault is yours, not Tony's. -- ChrisO (talk) 01:29, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Because it's in violation of WP:UNDUE and you know it. Wikipedia is the place for WP:ADVOCACY. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 01:34, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

No, I don't "know it" at all. I see the removal of that content as part and parcel of an effort by certain editors to play down or remove altogether the well-documented fact of criminal actions in this affair. And as others have pointed out, we are supposed to use the lead to summarise the key points of the article (as Wikipedia:Lead section states). This isn't "advocacy", it's simply a reflection of the known facts. Deleting it is mere whitewashing. -- ChrisO (talk) 01:40, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Could somebody please explain how reporting death threats that are under investigation across at least two continents is advocacy? --TS 01:42, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Can you explain to me how anyone is supposed to see hyperbole like "death threats that are under investigation across at least two continents" as anything but advocacy and POV? Drolz (talk) 01:53, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

"Death threats that are under investigation across at least two continents" looks like an entirely factual statement to me. Death threats have been made against scientists on at least two continents, and they're under investigation by the British police and the FBI. Are you disputing those facts? -- ChrisO (talk) 09:27, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Because the threats are embarrassing to one side of disagreement. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 01:44, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

ChrisO: You object to the inclusion of an email Jones manifestly wrote, because it might cause him harm by inference. Yet, you not only demand that anonymous death threats against scientists are included, but insist that they be given weight and placed in the lead, for the express purpose of incriminating the skeptics by association. Unbelievable. Drolz (talk) 01:51, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

So far we have dealt with just about any speculation and allegation in detail. I don't see why this particular one should be "swept under the carpet" and others stay.
—Apis (talk) 01:47, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

The other amusing thing about these threats is that they are being treated like a response to whoever released the emails, when they are (if anything besides nuttiness) obviously responses to the content of the emails. Shoot the messenger mentality to be sure. Drolz (talk) 01:57, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Is this [31] a notable commentator (while on the subject)?
—Apis (talk) 01:57, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

One of the tactics used by POV-pushers to is emphasize things they think makes their POV look better while demphasizing things they think makes their POV look worse. In reality, we're supposed to determine WP:WEIGHT based on its prominence in WP:RS. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 02:19, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Could we at least agree that there is no POV-pushing involved in reporting the death threats as we have reported them in this article? Nobody, to my knowledge, has suggested that the artile should attribute the death threats to climate sceptics. We definitely do need to assess the weight according to prominence in reliable sources. The police reports, as propagated in secondary sources, are about as reliable as it gets. Thus these are facts, and as significant facts they're summarised in the lead. --TS 02:29, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Frankly no, I don't believe the death threats can reasonably be included given what you have excluded. I don't even understand what substantive weight you believe these threats have. Suppose that the threats were inspired solely by the emails. What does that mean? Does it mean that it is never acceptable to publish unflattering material about scientists because death threats may ensue? What bearing does the reaction of an anonymous nut have on anything that goes on in this article? You and others have vehemently opposed the inclusion of far less insane remarks by people who you say have "fringe" positions, etc. I can't see any way that you reconcile this. Nevertheless, I would for the moment be content if you would just move them out of the lead and reduce the weight assigned. Drolz⁰⁹ 03:08, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

I don't see any undue weight with mentioning it, but the lead can always be improved. The inclusion of the death threats here is not related or connected to what has been excluded. Please focus on the issue at hand. Viriditas (talk) 04:07, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Sure, it can be mentioned, but it's not important enough to be mentioned in the lede. If it was, there wouldn't be such a dearth of WP:RS covering this aspect of the article subject. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 04:28, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

So is the measure of importance, in this case, the number of sources covering the death threats? I'm seeing lots of coverage on Google news, AQFK. Am I missing something? Viriditas (talk) 04:38, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Viriditas: I take it then, that you oppose consistency on principle? Drolz⁰⁹ 04:30, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Drolz: I have asked you several times now to stop misrepresenting the positions of other editors, and I've pointed you to WP:TALKNO. Please do not continue this behavior. Viriditas (talk) 04:35, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Yes, and I believe that I told you I wouldn't be held hostage by your apparent inability to understand what "misrepresent" means. Drolz⁰⁹ 04:39, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Please focus on the content, not the contributors. Thanks. Viriditas (talk) 04:41, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

"So is the measure of importance, in this case, the number of sources covering the death threats?" Sort of. We're supposed to apply weight roughly in proportional to the amount of coverage in WP:RS. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 04:46, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Including all the alleged death threats against public figures would turn Wikipedia bios of them into real snores. They would become mostly long lists of obscure alleged death threats. There is nothing notable about the supposed threats here, either.Flegelpuss (talk) 09:56, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Someone above gave the game away when they accused those of us arguing for the inclusion of this information of wanting to make climate sceptics "look bad". This isn't about making anyone look bad (and you shouldn't be implicitly seeking to protect one side's reputation anyway). I added the death threat information to the lead simply to summarise the law enforcement involvement in / response to the affair. The involvement of law enforcement agencies is always notable and as Viriditas has pointed out, the death threats have been reported by multiple news outlets. -- ChrisO (talk) 09:27, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

The core focus of this article is the harassment of climate scientists. Viriditas (talk) 11:13, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Nope, we're supposed to cover what WP:RS are covering. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 13:37, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Why I proposed another period of full protection and what we can do next (2)

This is by way of a follow-up and updating to a comment I made two weeks ago called Why I proposed a week of full protection, and what we can do next.

This shows the changes we've made since the last period of full protection ended on the morning of December 5th. I'm particularly proud of the way in which we've succeeded in tracking the evolution of the debate within the scientific community, and the period of protection enabled us to debate the organization of the "reactions" section to the extent that there have been few problems. We've been able to focus that section on identifiable expert opinion rather than the gaggle of newspaper opinion columns and talking heads that often afflicts articles on events in the news. Somebody coming here to find out what the fuss is about will see the facts of the case discussed by experts in the field. That's how it should be. This isn't a newspaper, which is a very good thing because the newspaper coverage of this affair is very patchy.

But as happened before there has been a run of highly contentious editing, and it became evident that the fragile consensus we developed over the first week in December had broken down.

What we can do next, I think, is firstly, kick back and pat ourselves on the back at achieving so much in less than a week. Well done. This is the best public coverage of the events and the issues raised anywhere, bar none. Secondly, we need to discuss and get consensus on a number of matters that have been simmering here over the past couple of days. I won't belabor them here because that would only dilute discussion that should be going on in the appropriate threads.

And don't forget to take some time out to make a start on the Christmas shopping. --TS 01:40, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Obviously the appeal to protect the page had nothing to do with you running out of reverts :-) Merry Christmas! Dimawik (talk) 01:58, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Frankly, Dimawiki, I wasn't aware that I'd been edit warring until I sat back and assessed it carefully. I was aware of removal of content that had been in the article for some time despite significant lack of consensus to remove it, and that this signified the end of our fragile consensus. I don't defend my own editing, it was wrong. --TS 02:24, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

I thought Wikipedia was the encyclopedia "anyone can edit". Why can't I edit this article. Fresno Area Rapid Transit (talk) 05:11, 11 December 2009 (UTC)— Fresno Area Rapid Transit (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

You can edit it, just wait 4 days (presuming you're not blocked). You can also edit many other areas of wikipedia Nil Einne (talk) 06:11, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Well, a week of protection seems rather overlong to me, but I'd like to remind people that if there's consensus on the talk page for changes they can still be made... Evercat (talk) 10:33, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Are there avenues for disputing this full protection? I don't think this is healthy.--Heyitspeter (talk) 10:46, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

I think it is very healthy, and it encourages people to work together on the talk page to improve the article. Viriditas (talk) 11:12, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

If you want to have the article unprotected before the protection period expires you can go directly to the protecting admin, and if he disagrees you can go to WP:RFPP. However it would help your case if the existing dispute (on whether to refer to death threats in the lead) had been resolved, which it hasn't. --TS 11:57, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

The reason you want to full protect the article is because people are conflicted on whether to include references to death threats in the lead? Frankly, that's a ridiculous MO.--Heyitspeter (talk) 12:02, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

While it's unfortionate no one can edit the article while protected, we weren't reaching any progress by edit warring either. I think it's positive to be able to discuss the contentious issues on the talk page instead of reverting back and forth. And it might help with a little break to relieve some stress.
—Apis (talk) 14:07, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Actually it's incorrect to state that we cannot edit the article while it's protected. On reaching consensus through discussion, I have already been successful in getting an admin to perform one major edit and I'm about to make a second request concerning another change. Protection is no barrier where we are willing to discuss and reach consensus. --TS 14:41, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

RFC: Death threats against climate scientists

Following newspaper, media and blog reports of the contents of emails hacked from the Climatic Research Unit, death threats have been reported by climate scientists in the US, the UK and Australia. There at least two distinct law enforcement investigations: one by the FBI and the other by Norfolk Constabulary. There is a difference of opinion on whether these threats should be mentioned in the lead section of the article. --TS 02:38, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

• Yes, I think this belongs in the lead. It's one of the 6 major facts of the affair, and it isn't subset of any of the other topics already covered in the lead. Guettarda (talk) 03:00, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
• No, it is tangential at best. Inclusion in the lead only serves to garner sympathy for CRU scientists and antipathy for anyone who makes allegations against them. Drolz⁰⁹ 03:03, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

  So you argue that we must suppress the facts because you have taken sides and the side you do not support must not be seen in a sympathetic light? Is that what you're saying? --TS 03:41, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

  Is it wise to decide what gets included based on who we perceive gets "sympathy or antipathy" from a certain piece of information? Wouldn't that result in a biased article?
  —Apis (talk) 03:53, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

I am saying, crudely, that the death threats are "more prejudicial than probative," to use the roughly analogous legal evidence standard. Drolz⁰⁹ 04:01, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

And given that I've advocated the inclusion of far more in this article than you have, TS, that is ridiculous. Though not as ridiculous as pretending that I am the only one with a POV here. Drolz⁰⁹ 04:03, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

• No, WP:WEIGHT is supposed to be determined by their prominence in WP:RS. Most reliable sources are NOT focusing on the death threats or giving them much attention. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 03:19, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

OK, I just checked the first 10 WP:RS used by the article [32][33][34][35][36][37][38][39][40][41][42] and only 1 out of the 10 even mentions the death threats. It's obviously WP:UNDUE to feature it so prominently in the lede. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 03:29, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

How many of those sources were from before it was known that scientists had received death threats? -Atmoz (talk) 03:35, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

"A Quest For Knowledge", that seems like a rather robotic way to decide on weight. The items you describe as "reliable sources" are newspapers. The FBI and the Norfolk police are all the source we need on the police investigations, however. They know what they're doing, they've made announcements, and so we know the investigations are happening. And, of course, they're serious criminal offences resulting from the incident. And you think we have to ignore that because you've been counting mentions in newspaper articles? Doesn't work that way. Multi-continent, multi-jurisdiciton investigations into death threats are inherently important. --TS 03:38, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

If it seems robotic, it's only because appeals to reason have failed. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 03:58, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Can anyone explain to me why we should be ignoring reliable sources? Please provide the rationale. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 05:19, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

• I note also that "Due weight" is being misinterpreted here. It says " the article should fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by a reliable source, and should do so in proportion to the prominence of each." Evidently the distinction between a significant fact and a significant viewpoint has been elided. --TS 03:44, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, I still don't see how you have explained the relevance of these threats in the first place. You say, "they're serious criminal offences resulting from the incident." What does it mean that they resulted from the incident? Presumably it means that they were a reaction to content in the emails, some of which you won't allow referenced here. You're saying that it's relevant to include the reaction of an anonymous (insane) person to the emails, but we can't include the emails themselves? And, "Multi-continent, multi-jurisdiciton investigations into death threats are inherently important." What is your warrant for this? Virtually all wirefraud and many, many non-physical crimes in general are "multi-jurisdictional." The FBI would be involved in any crime connected to the mail, for example. I think you have two burdens here, TS: First, you need to prove that death threats are important. Second, you need to prove that they are significantly relevant to this particular issue to warrant the POV slant that comes with adding them. Drolz⁰⁹ 03:51, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

This also seems to be a case of double standards for WPRS. On skeptical viewpoints for example, you apply a scientific authority standard, which precludes most people who aren't climate scientists from being quoted in the article. For this death threats issue you are applying a verifiability standard, for which it merely needs to be proved that threats were indeed made/said. I believe the second standard is the appropriate standard, personally, and would support noting the death threats (thought not in the lead) if the same standard was applied to everything. Drolz⁰⁹ 03:57, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Tony: Wrong. Per WP:UNDUE "Undue weight applies to more than just viewpoints. An article should not give undue weight to any aspects of the subject but should strive to treat each aspect with a weight appropriate to its significance to the subject. For example, discussion of isolated events, criticisms, or news reports about a subject may be verifiable and neutral, but still be disproportionate to their overall significance to the article topic. This is a concern especially in relation to recent events that may be in the news. Note that undue weight can be given in several ways, including, but not limited to, depth of detail, quantity of text, prominence of placement, and juxtaposition of statements." This is a classic case of WP:UNDUE. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 03:55, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

• Yes, it belongs in the lead as long as the material 1) Adheres to WP:LEAD 2) Is mentioned in proportion to other notable aspects of the incident (for example, it doesn't go on and on abut the death threats, but simply mentions them) 3) Is supported by good sources. Viriditas (talk) 04:04, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

  Well the wording at present is:

  Norfolk police are investigating the incident[4] and, along with the US FBI, are also investigating death threats made against climate scientists named in the e-mails.

• So it's really quite a brief mention. --TS 04:24, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
• No. No reasonable summary given to someone asking "what is this Climate email controversy thingy, anyhow?" would mention the death-threats as addressing or giving any insight into the core of the incident. The lede should do its best to concisely summarize the major points. As an aide to objectively deciding, construct a hypothetical explanation of the incident to a hypothetical uninformed friend. Unless you're pushing something, the death threats don't appear in the first several sentences you'll construct. MarkNau (talk) 04:18, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

  It's odd, really. I'm not pushing anything, but I find it hard to conceive of a way of describing this affair and its consequences without mentioning two police investigations on two different continents. To say you have to be pushing a certain point of view to find that significant seems odd. --TS 04:26, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

TS, what I try to do in cases like this is find parallels. In other events, how much coverage/prominence was given to associated death threats? Or think about it in isolation. Which elements of the incident are prominent on their own to warrant coverage. The threats really miserably failed all attempts to formulate an objective test. As a random example. You know Dyron Hart? No, you don't. Neither does wikipedia. Now Google him. See what I mean? MarkNau (talk) 05:02, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, there are two police investigations? On two different continents? Unheard of. I would still very much appreciate it if you would address my points above, rather than repeating these goofy lines that are designed to convey some awesome scope to a tiny issue. If the issue were as important as you claim, you wouldn't need to do that. Drolz⁰⁹ 04:35, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

If the FBI has launched an investigation into the death threats, and if multiple sources have covered this news story, then it is important. Viriditas (talk) 04:40, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

This is only a minor side issue...likely related to kids who are pranking. No need to go overboard and add this unfounded material. Gherston (talk) 04:44, 11 December 2009 (UTC)— Gherston (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

A great many "important" things are not covered in this article, let alone its lead. Relevance to the issue at hand is obviously a necessary criterion for inclusion. Drolz⁰⁹ 04:49, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

And how are serious death threats against the scientists involved in this incident not relevant? Viriditas (talk) 04:52, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

• I think I'm finding myself impressed by Marknau's extremely strong conviction. If he and I can have such completely different reactions to these death threats, it's probable that one of us is misperceiving their gravity. While I find the multiple law enforcement investigations, and the clear distress of the scientists, quite significant, and certainly the most significant provable outcome of this entire event, other reasonable people may not. I'm not entirely convinced, but I am less certain than I was. --TS 04:55, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
  • I don't have a clue how important the issue is. But I think that's beside the point. It's clearly notable enough to be in the article. And since the lead is supposed to represent the article, it should be in the lead. It's not like it's an elaboration on any of the other points in the lead - it isn't one more email, or one more reaction, or one more reply. It's categorically distinct.

    A summary is supposed to extract every major point from a larger body of writing. If you can't categorise as a subset of any of the other major points, you need to pull it out, you need to include it in the summary. And that's why this point belongs in the lead. Its inclusion in the lead isn't a function of its importance. It's a function of its distinctness. Guettarda (talk) 05:11, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

    • Guettarda, see for reference the entry on California Proposition 8 as an example. That almost certainly generated an order of magnitude more threats than this case, and yet mention of the threats is in a section set aside for that sub-topic, not mentioned in the summary. I think it's a good example, particularly because it is a case from "the other side." MarkNau (talk) 05:30, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
      • That's a B-class article that failed GA. It's not really a standard for comparison. Guettarda (talk) 05:22, 11 December 2009 (UTC) DisengagingGuettarda (talk) 05:28, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
        • Guettarda, You misunderstand why I mention that article. It is not a "gotcha - precedent!" comment. What I mean to do is present an exercise of the brain. To provide a gymnasium for one's objectivity. An opportunity to possibly catch one's brain rationalizing due to partisanship. MarkNau (talk) 05:33, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
          • Disengaging (talk) 05:39, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
          • Disengaging Guettarda (talk) 05:43, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
            • I did not mean to imply that, and I am sorry if I insulted you. I don't think the issue is whether death threats are disgusting or acceptable. It is whether it is sufficiently germane and illuminating to the pertinent topic. Looking at another case is a good way to try to anchor objectivity. MarkNau (talk) 05:50, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
              • Disengaging Guettarda (talk) 06:04, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
      • Marknau, what do you mean by "the other side?" Proposition 8 was not to my knowledge related in any way to global warming or climate science. --TS 05:24, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
        • Given the common political viewpoint bundles, it is likely that someone who is predisposed to be biased in one direction on this issue will tend to bias the other direction on Prop 8. That makes it an interesting venue to test one's brain, to try examine it as a parallel issue. Is Prop 8 significantly about the death threats that emerged from the situation? Would you feel compelled to put mention of those threats in the Prop 8 summary? MarkNau (talk) 05:30, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
        • Disengaging Guettarda (talk) 05:36, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
          • Disengaging Guettarda (talk) 05:37, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
          • That possibly applies in your country, Marknau, but bear in mind that Wikipedia is an international forum. You simply confused the hell out of this Brit. --TS 05:38, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
            • TS, although a non-USian wouldn't be as familiar with Proposition 8, the political correlation still holds in UK, and so it is rather likely (note moderate wording!) that someone who feels strongly one way about this case will feel strongly the other way about a proposal to outlaw gay marriage. And if not in your particular case, then I apologize for not being able to come up with a more appropriate example. MarkNau (talk) 05:47, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
            • I feel like I'm miscommunicating badly. Let me try again. As a personal exercise in judging and testing my objectivity, I will often try to ask myself how I would feel if I felt strongly in the opposite direction on a particular issue. Would I still cling to the same principles I am purporting to champion, or would I rationalize them away. I'm just sharing this technique. I don't think I'm too out of line to suggest that Prop 8 has a good chance of providing such a "mind-twisting" position-flip for someone who feels strongly about this issue. Please note the moderation and qualification of my language. I'm not throwing stones here. I'm trying to share the way I approached the problem, to explain why I think the way I do on this issue.MarkNau (talk) 05:43, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
              • Disengaging Guettarda (talk) 05:58, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
                • Guettarda, I've shared what I want to share. People who persistently feel strongly about the contentious underpinnings to this issue are not going to be able to objectively help decide the question "Are the death threats significantly relevant?" I've kindly shared a tool in goodwill, and anyone who wishes might be able to use it to help us decide that question. MarkNau (talk) 06:12, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Wow, you guys won't even call it Climategate, as it's known throughout the world now, but these alleged death threats are a primary point? LOL. Sad, really. 64.53.136.29 (talk) 05:37, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

The accusations aren't being investigated as a criminal matter. The death threats are. That's a big difference. --TS 05:41, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Except for the fact that the accusations are being investigated. The dearth of reliable sources which has covered this aspect of the the story needs to be accounted for. We aren't supposed to introduce bias to counteract the bias of reliable sources. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 05:47, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

• No, it shouldn't even be in the article, much less in the lead. Death threats against public figures are very common and only extremely rarely are they notable (for example, if they lead up to an actual murder of a prominent figure). Otherwise, most Wikipedia BLP articles about public figures would contain long lists of obscure alleged death threats.Flegelpuss (talk) 05:52, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

You only need one source to confirm a police investigation: the police themselves. To some extent, they also determine how significant a death threat is. --TS 05:55, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

In that case, have the police given any indication that these threats are unusually notable? Drolz⁰⁹ 06:00, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Actually, per WP:V, "Just because a source is reliable does not mean it should be included". A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 06:05, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

I think the question of whether the material should be in the lead is predicated on whether it should be in the article at all. Which is, of course, a separate discussion, which probably does not belong in the RFC. Guettarda (talk) 06:09, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

That is an unnecessary diversion, we can have the convo here quite easily. It's also a simplification to say that if it's in the article it's in the lead. Death threats pretty much just fall under reaction to the emails, and can easily be included in a phrase like "sparked controversy" for the purposes of the lead. Drolz⁰⁹ 06:12, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

On Marknau's example, I don't think it holds in any case. The scale of the incident here is small: the hacking and release of emails and other documents. The personal consequences are global in scale--several law enforcement bodies are investigating these threats. The California Proposition 8 article mentions just one death threat that was handled at local level. Proposition 8 was of course a much bigger affair than this hacking, and the whole of California and even a small part of Utah was animated by the affair. So there's a lot more to write about and of course the death threats are less significant in the context. --TS 05:54, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

You still haven't explained why the investigation makes it relevant, TS. Cf. my above point about the double WP:RS standard. Another question I would ask: If these scientists had received death threats during the controversy, but for reasons unrelated to it, would the situation be significantly different than it is now? There is no assertion that any notable person made the death threats, and no one has explained what import the death threats have to any other aspect of the controversy. There is no evidence that whoever released the documents is responsible for the death threats, and now law would hold them accountable if one were carried out. Likewise, there is no relevance to the content controversy. All inclusion does is create a spurious link between people who make reasoned allegations against the CRU scientists, and the anonymous lunatics who made the threats. Drolz⁰⁹ 05:59, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

"Even this is deeply offensive. You're implying that if someone supported Prop 8, they must also support all the tactics used by its supporters." Geurtarda: Aside from the fact that MarkNau seems very civil to me, and certainly not insulting, you've just shown exactly why the death threats shouldn't be prominently featured in this article. Doing so gives the impression that anyone who questions the CRU scientists supports the death threats as well. Drolz⁰⁹ 06:04, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Drolz00, we're already agreed that it's relevant--nobody is now arguing that we should not write aout the death threats, because multiple reliable sources (to wit, police departments and secondary sources reporting their statements) have drawn the link for us. The rest of your comment seems to be a heap of red herrings. --TS 06:10, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

It's relevant because you already agreed that it's relevant? Why can't you just answer the questions I pose rather than write them off as red herrings without explanation? Drolz⁰⁹ 06:18, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

As for your allegation of double standard, I don't know where you get it from. The police and FBI are reliable sources on which investigations they have begun, and scientists are reliable sources on the science. --TS 06:12, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Yes, but including an allegation against scientists is not a question of scientific expertise. It's simply a question of whether or not we can verify that someone made the allegation; it's not for us to determine whether it is accurate. Likewise, the police/FBI are used to confirm that a threat was made and that investigation is ongoing. Drolz⁰⁹ 06:16, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

I don't argue that wwe would use scientific expertise to make any determination outselves. We certainly do report what those with scientific expertise are saying. And that speaks for itself. That's why we distinguish sources by reliability in the first place. That's why we report how those qualified in a field are saying about that field, and about events closely related to it. --TS 06:22, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Again, this is the double standard. You will not report the allegations of skeptics because they are not scientifically reliable, but you will report random death threats because there is reliable evidence that they were made. The same standard should apply to both, and it should be the latter. Drolz⁰⁹ 06:25, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

That's interesting. You say to me "You will not report the allegations of skeptics." This is far as I am aware simply incorrect. I've written extensive parts of this article, much of which is reporting what sceptics are saying. Now I've removed statements from unqualified people, including the Union of Concerned Scientists (who despite the name are not a scientific organization), who are not sceptics at all. I've removed them because their stuff clutters up and gets in the way of the wealth of relevant, well-informed analysis from those who are qualified. --TS 06:30, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

So a statement by the UCS is just cluttering up the page, but anonymous death threats belong in the lead? Does this really seem right to you? Drolz⁰⁹ 06:35, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Yes, the UCS's words in support of the climate scientists and attacking the hackers was in a section on responses by scientific organizations and they're not a scientific organization. I'm not into piling on comment for the sake of it, so I removed it completely rather than create a section for "not-so-scientific organizations" or whatever. Obviously the FBI and police investigations are of somewhat more import than any statement by an advocacy body. --TS 06:39, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

This "Obviously the FBI and police investigations are of somewhat more import than any statement by an advocacy body" seems incorrect as well, given that an advocacy body represents more people and wields more political power than an anonymous death threatener. It is significantly more likely to have substantive effects on a large scale. Drolz⁰⁹ 06:49, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

This is the double standard again. You are holding one statement to a standard of scientific accuracy, and another to verifiability. Moreover, I just looked through the article at the skeptic views you claim to have included, and found precisely one. A US Senator who pointedly makes no actual reference to the specifics of the emails. The emails themselves are presented with incredibly vague statements about what "skeptics say" followed by verbose explanations of how the skeptics are wrong. Drolz⁰⁹ 06:42, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

You keep repeating this accusation of a double standard. I certainly hold a statement on science to a scientific standard. I certainly trust the police and the FBI to know which crimes are serious enough to investigated. Do you not see? Two different fields of expertise, held to the same standard: relevant professional expertise.

In the case of the skeptics, the "relevant expertise" is to know that a allegation has been made. The police have the expertise to know that a threat has been made, a publisher has the expertise to know that an allegation has been made. You are swapping the actor and the source. To avoid double standard: Anonymous guy makes a death threat, police report it; Skeptic makes an allegation, publisher publishes it. However I expect that if someone had made a public death threat, you would advocate for the inclusion of that as well, which means that self-published allegations should also be allowed. Drolz⁰⁹ 07:21, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Now you come back amazingly quickly and claim to have investigated many hundreds of my edits, and claim that I've only supported the inclusion of one item about a sceptic. Come on, try to make credible statements, don't just make up obvious fictions. --TS 06:56, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

I'm talking about this article, obviously. Drolz⁰⁹ 07:21, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

To put it another way, if the UCS does not belong in this article because it has no scientific relevance, how are the manifestly less scientific death threats relevant? Drolz⁰⁹ 06:45, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

"Doing so gives the impression that anyone who questions the CRU scientists supports the death threats as well." Gosh, that's a weird thing to say. If we wrote a lead so badly that it gives such a false impression, the encyclopedia would be sunk. We'd be hopelessly poor writers. --TS 06:14, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

No, only published reports are reliable. A Quest For Knowledge (talk)

If the police hadn't published what they were doing, then we wouldn't be discussing it. --TS 06:22, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

So does this mean that you are okay with the inclusion of published allegations against the CRU scientists? Drolz⁰⁹ 06:27, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Are you being serious? We are already doing so. --TS 06:31, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

This is a complete red herring, meant to divert attention from the real concerns expressed in reliable sources. Keep it out. Fresno Area Rapid Transit (talk) 06:26, 11 December 2009 (UTC)— Fresno Area Rapid Transit (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

A very new account. Dived straight into controversial articles on climate change. --TS 06:33, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

What is the problem some of you guys have with new accounts? Wouldn't you expect people to jump into the more contro issues as they are the ones people are actually interested in? That's the problem with these protections. Drolz⁰⁹ 06:36, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

And this is different from experienced editors who continually Wikilawyer this article? A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 06:38, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

A serious accusation. Please go to dispute resolution if you think some editors on this article are gaming the rules. --TS 06:41, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

You mean ignoring the rules. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 13:44, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Aren't some of these recent comments just repetitions of earlier comments? I'm sure I've read them before. --TS 06:59, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Yeah s/he copied a whole set of comments down. Newbie mistake. But not ok. Quote, don't copy signed comments, AQFK. Guettarda (talk) 07:01, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, it was a copy and paste error. Feel free to revert. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 13:36, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

That would be potentially confusing, perhaps it would be best if you could strike it out, that way it's clearer what's being referred to?
—Apis (talk) 14:18, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

• Yes, of course it should be mentioned. It's a serious issue, it's confirmed by the relevant authorities, and it's covered in reliable sources.
  —Apis (talk) 14:18, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

• No it should not be in the lead, IMHO. I agree it is a serious issue in terms of the scientists' lives, however It would seem adding it to the lead would give it undue weight. Though, of course I believe it should be included elsewhere, but I do not agree that the threats are given such prominence in the average story about the incident.

There are editors mentioning WP:LEAD, but it would seem to me that including something in the article's lead puts a very strong emphasis on it and I do not agree that the death threats would then be given "relative emphasis of relative importance" in the overwhelming majority of RS published stories about the event. I would, however, be willing to reconsider if there was significant precedent elsewhere on Wikipedia, of mentioning death threats in the lead of the article that describe the circumstances which ultimately lead to said death threats.

Moreover, editors have repeatedly said that this article is about the hacking incident and not the fallout / controversy surrounding it. While I would like to see an article that does deal with the fallout, shouldn't these same authors be fighting to keep death threats out entirely? Instead, it looks as if at least some of them are fighting for its inclusion in the lead. The decision needs to be made and made clear, are we including the fallout and controversy (in which the death threats belong in the article, but still probably not in the lead), or are we strictly limiting the scope of the article to the hacking incident, in which case I'd be curious how the death threats warrant inclusion at all. jheiv (talk) 04:46, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

E-mail misquoted

In the section on the "Mann e-mail of 11 Mar 2003," the article reads:

"In one e-mail, as a response to an e-mail indicating that a paper in the scientific journal Climate Research had questioned assertions that the 20th century was abnormally warm, Mann wrote:

'I think we have to stop considering Climate Research as a legitimate peer-reviewed journal. Perhaps we should encourage our colleagues in the climate research community to no longer submit to, or cite papers in, this journal.'[36]"

The first three sentences are not in the citation. Only the last two are quoted there. Can an administrator change the article to reflect this? (sorry if my formatting is clumsy. Anyone feel free to edit it w.r.t that.)--Heyitspeter (talk) 10:43, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

I'd prefer to find a reliable secondary source that gives the fuller context, though a quick search on google shows that this is given almost exclusively in opinion pieces and editorials, rather than journalism (oddly, the opinion pieces in question use this against Jones). For now, trimming to the phrases as widely reported would seem to make sense. If we find one quality newspaper or journal that reports the fuller context as fact, then we should restore it. It isn't a misquote of Jones, though it's a misquote of the secondary source. --TS 13:00, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

{{editprotected}} There doesn't seem to be any objection to this, and Peter and I basically agree. Please remove the following quoted words which are not in the cited source:

"This was the danger of always criticising the skeptics for not publishing in the "peer-reviewed literature". Obviously, they found a solution to that--take over a journal! So what do we do about this? "

The words in question are in the section "Mann e-mail of 11 Mar 2003". --TS 15:39, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Wait a minute, checking the actual e-mail, the quote appears to be correct, although it's not in the source. Shouldn't we try and find a better source (it's possible it was lost/changed during all the edit warring?)
—Apis (talk) 16:20, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Oh, sorry, that is what TS said, remove it until we find a RS then.
—Apis (talk) 16:24, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

I can't find anything other than from editorials and blogs either. However the next email quoted (2 Feb 2005) uses this [43] article posted in "opinion" in WSJ. The full email is included there, but the solution is probably to find a better source to the 2 Feb 2005 quote as well?
—Apis (talk) 17:11, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

I've put a hold on the editprotected. Should I go ahead now or do you think it needs more discussion? I agree that the full context of the quote is much better but we don't yet have a reliable secondary source for it, worse luck, so I don't see any alternative to removing pending better sourcing. --TS 18:25, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Agree. We need an administrator to make the change now.--Heyitspeter (talk) 21:07, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Hold on, not so fast. We agree that it is in the emails right? At the very least it is shown here, agreed? Certainly this source should suffice for a few days until we can find a better source. (Thanks for tlx'ing the editprotected template for the time being.)

• Meh, not too happy with these additional sources either:
  • WSJ: The Web Discloses Inconvenient Climate Truths"
  • Ranking Member Sensenbrenner Opening Statement...
  • NCTimes.com Blog: AP’s F. Josef Hebert Blunders on Climategate UPDATED
  • Link to messages but zero context - useless - not sure who these NCPA guys are either.

Ifs unfortunate that MSM tries their best not to publish stories about these incidents -- we're left to sources both questionably and clearly partisan (well I guess you could say that about MSM too...) jheiv (talk) 05:27, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

Arguing to remove this quote based on RS technicalities is preposterous Wikilawyering. The multiple mainstream media sources given above are quite sufficient, and consistent with the fact that no one has contested the authenticity of the quote, and the fact that anybody can check that the e-mail with this exact quote is in fact in the widely available archive. There is absolutely zero chance that this quote is an error, and the person quoted is a public figure. The 29,000 Google hits on the exact two sentences proposed to be removed show that this is an extremely notable quote.Flegelpuss (talk) 06:10, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

Please don't adjust the title of this section, which I created. And no, you haven't found a reliable source. We need an administrator to edit the article to reflect the citation.--Heyitspeter (talk) 11:44, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

There is consensus that the quote is not available in the cited source, and no consensus on an alternative source (all of the available secondary sources are opinion pieces which may not have been fact-checked). One editor dismisses this proposal as wikilawyering, and there is no serious disagreement that the quote is in the primary source, which cannot be cited because of copyright, the manner in which it was obtained, and no original research policy. So I leave the determination of consensus to edit to the admin. --TS 14:48, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

Similar incidents expansion

Recommend moving and merging the last "similar incidents" section into a new section 1 titled, "Background", and explaining that this incident is only the latest in a series of harassment against climate scientists for the better part of the last 20 years.[44] Also suggest connecting this harassment in its historical context with the details found in the political pressure on scientists section, demonstrating the the only major suppression of climate data and evidence has not come from climate scientists, but from the very people now criticizing them. More importantly, the article should add a section dedicated to "Scientific integrity" and address the "valid concerns about scientific integrity" that UCS raises (and we should explore this) while at the same time, unequivocally stating without hesitation or hedging, that the climate science is fully intact and that both the data and the conclusions reached by climate scientists remains unchanged. No ifs, ands, or buts. Viriditas (talk) 12:05, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

At this early stage, this sounds like synthesis, though my opinion might change if I saw secondary sources on this background story. In other words, if say Nature or Science have produced the background research, I would say we should report that. This article does definitely need to continie to cover the more analytical reports, which to date have been written by experts in the field. --TS 13:09, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

I have a tendency to avoid baby steps so let me slow down a bit. Can you see the need for a background section that sets the scene prior to the incident? This would involve the creation of a new section 1 titled "Background", which would include at least some information from the Climatic Research Unit, set the scene appropriately, and describe related events leading up to the hack (Section 2, currently section 1. Section 0 is the lead). Viriditas (talk) 13:49, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

On the intactness of climate science, we do report that just about every scientific body that has made a statement so far has emphasized this fact, and that's how we should report it. --TS 13:11, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Yes, but it would work best as the concluding paragraph in a new section about scientific integrity. We briefly touch upon the problems raised, and conclude with the assessment. A summary should also appear in the lead. Viriditas (talk) 13:52, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

I'd feel more comfortable writing this after the CRU investigation concludes. Then we'll actually have some concrete data to work with. We don't have a deadline. --TS 14:04, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

We have enough sources to get started on it. Viriditas (talk) 22:55, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Hmm, I agree that background information would be desirable, but also that without sources it feels uncomfortably like OR. I think we should wait for expert analysis, I'm pretty sure that will come. Science historians have shown an interest in the global warming debate before.
—Apis (talk) 14:27, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

The background information is supposed to help the reader wade into the subject. Right now, the article goes directly into the incident without giving some information about the institution and the key players involved. This is a disservice to the reader who came here to find out what is going on. Viriditas (talk) 22:55, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

More

• Office break-ins in 2008. "Attempts to hack into climate scientists' computers...people impersonated network technicians to try to gain access to campus offices and data at the Canadian Centre for Climate Modelling and Analysis." "[Weaver] believes the campaign is driven by the fossil-fuel industry, citing 'a war for public opinion.'"[45]
• Filmmaker Phelim McAleer harassed climatologist Stephen Schneider "leader of the Stanford delegation to COP 15 and co-winner of the Nobel Peace Prize in 2007 with the IPCC". McAleer "proceeded to yell at Schneider and accuse him of being a fraud, repeatedly interrupting him even though the climatologist was making an effort to answer his queries. Though it was reported elsewhere that Schneider “repeatedly answered that he did not agree with the deletion of data,” he in fact emphasized that he regularly deletes data if it proves to be incorrect, and did not feel he could make a judgment on the Phil Jones issue without knowing more about exactly what was deleted. With McAleer apparently intent on pursuing his harassment of Schneider, a security guard escorted the irate Irishman away from the professor upon completion of the Q&A."[46] Schneider suggests that the CRU incident be named "Climate Denier Gate" emphasizing the "illegal nature of the disclosures".[47] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Viriditas (talk • contribs) 23:14, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

The above proposal is obviously WP:OR. The phrase including "has been targeted" in the Similar Incidents section should be removed as this is only an allegation, not a verified fact. Indeed, the whole section should be removed as the alleged incident(s) are not notable. Even if the section is kept the extreme quote from an interested party without rebuttal gives that party undue weight and should be removed.Flegelpuss (talk) 06:23, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

It's a fact that climate scientists and their associated departments have been targeted for hacking, burglaries, and data theft, and it's a fact that this has been going on for two decades. It's also a fact that the harassment is still ongoing and this can be demonstrated with dates and names of people who have released false information to media outlets about the CRU incident, in an attempt to mislead the public and manipulate their perception of the issue. It's also a fact that several books and many news articles have been written on this subject, and that the last Bush administration was directly accused of manipulating the science to suppresss the evidence for global warming. It's also a fact that several users are creating multiple Wikipedia accounts to promote and perpetuate this propaganda in direct opposition to the sock puppet policy. Viriditas (talk) 06:32, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

I agree that these are facts, but we don't synthesize accounts from such facts. That would violate no original research. What I'm saying is that if and when a reliable source--such as a professionally qualified science historian--publishes an account of the affair expressly linking the instances of harassment, then we may attribute the linking to that source. We may not, however, make the link ourselves. I'm not discouraging further research on this, but I do think we have to wait for a reliable source. --TS 11:51, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you are referring to here. The article lacks a background section. It launches right into the hack without any information about the research unit, the people involved, or the history of climate research in this regard. None of this is OR and it is already supported by sources. Viriditas (talk) 12:01, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

Okay, why not make a start on a draft background section and put it below so we can work on it and offer suggestions? --TS 14:51, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

Death Threats (WP:UNDUE)

I challenge you to give me a single reason that anonymous death threats have any relation to the controversy. The only reason that sentence is included is because it makes the entire skeptic side look bad. This is obviously ridiculous, because prominent people from all sides receive death threats all the time. Noting it here is just prejudicial. Drolz09 (talk) 12:34, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

I suggest you read the cited source, which is highly noteworthy: "Two of the scientists involved in "Climategate" – the e-mail hacking incident at the Climatic Research Unit (CRU) of the University of East Anglia, UK – have been emailed death threats since the contents of their private e-mails were leaked to the world. No further information can be revealed about these particular threats at present because they are currently under investigation with the FBI in the United States. Many other CRU scientists and their colleagues have received torrents of abusive and threatening e-mails since the leaks first began in mid-November 2009." [48] This means that there are now two criminal investigations taking place into this affair, one on each side of the Atlantic. That is very significant news. The harassment of scientists by anti-science activists is also indisputably a sigificant part of the story. -- ChrisO (talk) 12:38, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

At most, harassment is part of a broader narrative on the global warming issue. It has no specific relevance to this controversy unless you can provide evidence that the threats were made by someone with a tangible connection to either the hackers or the skeptics who are quoted in this article. You don't see me adding that climateaudit is routinely DDoSed. Drolz09 (talk) 12:42, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

No mention of the threat to the life of a skeptic scientist in one of the emails -- I wonder why? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.225.97.164 (talk) 07:07, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Climate Audit's alleged DDOSing clearly isn't relevant to this issue. But as the cited source notes, there is a direct link between the file theft and these threats: they "have been emailed death threats since the contents of their private e-mails were leaked to the world." It may make you unconfortable to acknowledge it, but the people sending these threats are global warming sceptics. If you consider yourself to be in that category then I'm afraid you're sharing it with some very unpleasant people - indeed, criminals. -- ChrisO (talk) 12:46, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

There are nuts on every side of every debate. The fact that some of them took this particular scandal as an opportunity to make death threats does not "link" them to the scandal. They are no more relevant to it than eco-terrorist nuts on the other side. There's no reason to mention them here except to make everyone skeptical of global warming guilty by association. Which, it seems, is your intention. Drolz09 (talk) 12:50, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

The theft was perpetrated against the CRU, and they are the victims of this crime. It is entirely appropriate to describe the crime, including all aspects pertaining to it. It's relevant, topical, and significant. Viriditas (talk) 13:25, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Agreed. In fact, it is the theft of the data that is the most significant detail of this entire incident, and should constitute the bulk of the article. Much of the fuss that has followed has been based on speculation and opinion. -- Scjessey (talk) 13:30, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

The fact that some of them took this particular scandal -- at least you are now admitting that it was a consequence of this particular scandal, contrary to your immediately preceding absurd contention that it was not. And of course that is what is relevant here, making your original objection moot and a big waste of a lot of people's time. -- 98.108.198.236 (talk) 03:18, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Evidently you and the FBI part company on the matter of whether the death threats to climatologists are to be taken seriously. --TS 12:40, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Taking death threats seriously has nothing to do with whether or not they belong in this article. I'm not denying that they happened, but the fact that they did has no relevance to the question of whether there was fraudulent activity at CRU, or whether the hack was legal, etc. Drolz09 (talk) 12:44, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Tony and Chris are quite right - this is directly connected with the story. This doesn't appear to be a random coincidence. Or rather, since our sources see them as connected, we need to treat them as if they were connected and not substitute our own opinions. Guettarda (talk) 12:47, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

It's relevant to how some in the anti-science activist community have responded to this incident, as well as to the personal consequences for the scientists whose e-mails were stolen. -- ChrisO (talk) 12:48, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

In that case they belong in another section of the article, and it needs to be phrased in a way that doesn't basically imply the threats came from leading skeptics. Drolz09 (talk) 12:59, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

I think that much is clear from the context. --TS 13:04, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

In fact, if things like this are going to be included from either side; that is, "reactions" that do not actually have any relation to the veracity of issues at stake in the controversy, the article needs to be broken up into multiple sections. Since you refuse to fork the hack and controversy because you need to draw attention away from the latter, they should at least have their own section in the page: Something like Hack/Analysis of Emails/Reactions from Concerned Parties/Fallout (which is where death threats belong, if anywhere). Drolz09 (talk) 13:04, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Please don't make accusations of bad faith against other editors. --TS 13:06, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

ChrisO openly admitted to believing that the "real story" is the hack. It is transparently obvious to everyone that the dominant wikipedia editors are essentially a public relations firm for organizations that are the mouth pieces of climate activists. There's no reason to pretend otherwise. Drolz09 (talk) 13:10, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

No kidding. This article is a joke. It reads like AGW activists wrote the damn thing.JettaMann (talk) 17:48, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Please see our policy on personal attacks. Making accusations like that against your fellow editors is unacceptable. Guettarda (talk) 13:16, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

That is not transparently obvious to everyone -- most rational people think otherwise. -- 98.108.198.236 (talk) 03:18, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

<-Please, let’s avoid the characterizations, and return to the discussion of the article. ChrisO, I thought we had broad consensus that edit beyond trivial copy edits would be discussed and some semblance of consensus reached before inclusion in the article. I see no discussion of the addition of the death threat sentence. I think it is quite arguable whether it belongs anywhere in the article, but it most certainly does not belong in the lede. (Of course the FBI is investigating, that's what we pay then to do, but absent some evidence it is credible, it isn’t as important as a hundred other issues we’ve chosen not to include.) Please remove it, then propose in this talk what wording you suggest and its placement. We can then discuss it.SPhilbrickT 15:25, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

As the death threats were reported and a direct result of the leak, I'd suggest the incident merits inclusion though not very prominently.Dduff442 (talk) 15:47, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Are you guys mad? Criminals hacked into a university server and then caused a massive breach of privacy by publishing loads of emails. As a result, (1) climate sceptics had a large body of text from which they could cherry-pick what seemed to confirm their conspiracy theory, causing confusion right before an important conference; and (2) the scientists became the targets of death threats. And then we are supposed to discuss the speculations coming from (1) in detail, but downplay (2)??? Hans Adler 16:37, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

No, and Yes.SPhilbrickT 16:39, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

To the first question: not generally, but there do seem to be specific instances. -- 98.108.198.236 (talk) 03:18, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

I read this earlier, but it didn't sink in until now. Yes. --SPhilbrickT 17:24, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

The death threats have been covered by several reliable sources, so it belongs in the article. As for amount of coverage, we're supposed to determine weight based on its prominence among reliable sources. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 18:43, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

I have moved the death threats information into the reaction section, out of the Hack and Theft section. Given the rationale for their inclusion in the first place (i.e. they show the reaction) it seems indisputable that they belong in that section if anywhere. If anyone has a reasoned argument otherwise, please state it. Drolz09 (talk) 01:43, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

This is obviously ridiculous

Indeed your statement is obviously ridiculous -- death threats were issued to people whose names appeared in the emails, as a direct consequence of the emails being made public. Even from your cribbed perspective that it's only the content of the emails that is relevant and not the fact of the theft, the death threats flow from the content -- it's because those big bad scientists pulled a massive fraud on we the people that their lives are in danger, eh. -- 98.108.198.236 (talk) 03:08, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

From what I can make out, this is an argument for their inclusion in the article, which they still are. In the reaction section. With the other reactions. Drolz09 (talk) 03:27, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Death threats are criminal acts, currently being investigated by the British police and the FBI, arising from this affair. As such they're an integral and very important part of it, should be covered in the lead, and should have a prominent section of their own alongside the section on the hacking, so that readers looking for a rundown of the important events of the affair will read about them there without having to rummage through the section about "reactions" (ie statements of opinion, not criminal acts), a location which doesn't make sense at all unless we were to decide that a death threat was a reasonable reaction to the leaking of the documents. --TS 09:45, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

I very clearly explained why the death threats, which are said to be a reaction to the publishing of the emails were moved to the reaction section. The mere fact that they are under investigation does not mean they belong in the Hack and Theft section, because 1. That section does not specifically deal with things "under investigation" and 2. The death threats are not being investigated as part of the hacking incident. No one has provided evidence that the hackers made the death threats or are linked to them. Putting death threats in that section, however, implies that that is exactly the case. Unless you have evidence of a link between the hackers and the threateners, you need to undo your edit and put that bit back in the reaction section, with other reactions. Drolz09 (talk) 05:13, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

While it's a "reaction", it's not exactly the sort of reaction that the section on reactions is about. We've got a timeline of actions - theft of files, distribution of stolen files, death threats. And we have reactions - what people said in response to the theft / content of the messages. Guettarda (talk) 05:22, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

So your contention is that the death threats are unrelated to the content or theft of the emails? If that is the case then there is no reason to include them in the article at all. Drolz09 (talk) 05:25, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

While technically "comments" or "reactions", they are also illegal acts being investigated by the authorities. I think it makes more sense to have them in the hack and theft section dealing with similar matters.
—Apis (talk) 05:33, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

The hack section deals with how the data was acquired and released. It is only incidentally about criminal investigations. The death threats are entirely unrelated to this section: they are a reaction. Drolz09 (talk) 06:01, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

"So your contention is that the death threats are unrelated to the content or theft of the emails?" Nope. Not saying anything of the sort. Guettarda (talk) 05:43, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

WP:UNDUE

Given the following:

• The overwhelming amount of coverage by reliable sources has been about the content of the e-mails and reactions to these e-mails
• Significantly fewer reliable sources have focused on the death threats

Does anyone else besides myself think that we're giving undue weight by featuring the death threats so prominently in the lede? Obviously, it belongs in the article, but does it warrant mention in the lede? A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 05:36, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Yes, as I have been saying, which is part of why I had moved them down to the reaction section. Drolz09 (talk) 05:45, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Um no, that's not what AQFK is asking about. Guettarda (talk) 05:47, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

We don't actually have a lead. We have a chronology which starts in the first sentence. The material above the TOC really isn't a summary of what's below the TOC. Guettarda (talk) 05:46, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

I believe it does belong in the lead. The case involves a series of (apparently ongoing) criminal actions against the CRU and its staff which have sparked at least two criminal investigations in the UK and US, plus the reaction to those actions. Since the harassment and targeting of these scientists before and after the theft is a key element of the story, it's essential to mention it. -- ChrisO (talk) 09:04, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

like AQFK, i also think at this point it is undue in the lead. maybe in few days if more news write about it. 93.86.205.97 (talk) 09:27, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

ABC in Australia has just published two lengthy articles on the subject: [49],[50] -- ChrisO (talk) 09:33, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

The death threats are a very major part of this affair. They're being investigated by the British police and the FBI as criminal matters. Weighing up media coverage and the like is beside the point, and should never by itself determine the weight we give to an event. --TS 10:24, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

really? does that always apply when determining wp:undue? or only sometimes? if a non-mainstream media reports on FBI activity and police criminal activity (in regards to some other article/topic), should we also give it a due weight in leads of articles? or do we need to always wait for mainstream media to report on these FBI/police inquires? what has more weight -- FBI activity, or the type and amound of media coverage it gets (mainstream/non mainstream)? 93.86.205.97 (talk) 12:45, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

The lead should summarise all the major ideas in the article. Since the death threats are a distinct issue, not an expansion on some other issue, they should be in the lead. Guettarda (talk) 13:00, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

We all know there are death threats and there are death threats. We pay our policing functions to err on the side of caution and take all seriously, but until someone is actually charged with a crime, there is zero evidence that these threats are anything more than the mindless bloviation of cranks. I'm not convinced that the thin information presented to date even deserves inclusion in the article, but I'll bow to the consensus that mention is appropriate. However, they do not presently come close to justifying inclusion in the lede.--SPhilbrickT 15:33, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

I fully agree with your opening point: "lead should summarise all the major ideas in the article". That why I oppose inclusion. There are far more credible death threats against Obama [51], and those don't make the lead. --SPhilbrickT 15:41, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

These are death threats against scientists (all US presidents get death threats, especially Democrat(ic) ones). This is an article about an incident and its ramifications, and now those have extended to include death threats to individual university workers. I don't see how that could be more relevant. Now, if this was an article about a point of scientific theory (which it isn't, but I think many AGW sceptics and deniers wish it was), then maybe it wouldn't be so relevant. So, which is the article about? --Nigelj (talk) 18:48, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

The "relevance" claim is a strawman. I don't see any groundswell arguing they aren't relevant. The issue is wp:weight. The lead should have the most important issues. It is truly astounding to claim that poorly specified death threats rise to that level. Sorry, when I see editors concerned about the state of this article, I see this as evidence for their case. Perhaps we should do a survey - not whether the death threats are relevant,t hey surely are, but whether they are such an important aspect of this incident that they deserve elevation to the lead.--SPhilbrickT 15:39, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Look, this issue has nothing to do with the death threats. It's just their lame attempt to play the victim. If this investigation pans out and reveals something, then fine, it can stay in the article body. It certainly doesn't belong in the opening summary. Removing, and keep it removed. No reversions. (I'm looking at you Guettarda). —Preceding unsigned comment added by JettaMann (talk • contribs) 20:22, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Guettarda, that's BS and you know it. These scientists were caught red handed and now they're pulling out this "death threat" business to play the victim. Someone probably wrote to them that they wish they would go extinct or otherwise and they see this as their chance to gain some sympathy. It's a joke that you think it belongs in the summary, it's barely worthy of being commented on in the article unless something from the investigations actually pans out. In the POV article on Wikipedia it has an undue weight clause, which you are violating here. JettaMann (talk) 20:18, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

So far we have dealt with just about any speculation and allegation in detail. I don't see why this particular one should be "swept under the carpet" and others stay.
—Apis (talk) 21:24, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

The only reason why "Following the release of the e-mails, climate scientists at the CRU and elsewhere have received numerous threatening and abusive e-mails." is because before that they weren't in the news and their email addresses were not found all over the net. Every public figure (including Sesame Street characters and Telletubbies!) gets threatening and abusive e-mails. Public figures who suddenly become much more well known and who at the same time have their email addresses revealed are bound to get an increase in threatening and abusive e-mails. Just because they got a bunch of newspapers to write about said increase, that doesn't make it notable. Notable implies something that is different from what always happens to all public figures. Mentioning it in this case and not on the pages for Britney Spears or Rush Limbaugh (both of whom get a lot of threatening and abusive e-mails as documented in several notable sources) is not being neutral. 75.84.238.18 (talk) 00:44, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

These death threats are being investigated by the FBI and the UK police. If the creators of the Tellytubbies, Kermit the Frog, and Dora the Explorer have received death threats that have been investigated by law enforcement, we should probably mention this in appropriate context in their respective articles. It really isn't a run-of-the-mill occurrence. --TS 09:19, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

The *alleged* death threats and the *alleged* hacking are minor incidents not worthy of Wikipedia notability. How often are the death threats received by politicians, celebrities, and other public figures deemed notable enough to include in Wikipedia? Very rarely. It is the content of the documents and the reaction to that content that is notable and rightfully constitutes the bulk of the article. These alleged misdemeanors are not by themselves notable. They are notable at best only because the are related to the firestorm caused by the content of the documents. The alleged hacking should be given far less prominence in the article, and the alleged death threats probably should be removed altogether. If we dove into every misdemeanor associated with a major news story, Wikipedia would be bulky and boring.Flegelpuss (talk) 03:10, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

The death threats are alleged, not factual

Here's what source 5 says:

An Australian born scientist at the centre of the East Anglia University email affair says he has received a number of death threats.

This means that the article should read:

Norfolk police are investigating the incident[4] and, along with the US FBI, are also investigating alleged death threats made against climate scientists named in the e-mails.[5]

We don't even know if he really got those death threats, and neither does ABC News, the source cited for it. It's questionable if mentioning these alleged death threats are eligible for inclusion as per WP:BLP. Macai (talk) 11:03, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

It's eligible for inclusion based on ample coverage and many sources simply say they received death threats. I'm sure the wording can be altered, but it is notable. It's also part of a larger harassment campaign that has been ongoing for two decades so it should be greatly expanded.[52][53][54] The harassment of climate scientists is the core issue. Viriditas (talk) 11:10, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

If they can show the death threats are climategate related, sure. But the main issue isn't with the inclusion itself, just with the assertion that it's not an alleged death threat, but a definite one. It'd be comparable if the lead just flatly stated that CRU conspired to mess with peer review, and so on, rather than just saying that allegations of such have been made. You know what I mean here? Macai (talk) 11:14, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Well, my preference is to move the threats and similar incidents into a background section, but some threats were made after the e-mail/documents were released, so yes, they are connected and should appear in the incident section. Can you tell me if CRU conspired to mess with peer review, and can you show me evidence that does not involve a primary source interpretation of their e-mails? The threats are being investigated by at least two agencies/countries. We have enough good evidence and sources to discuss them or mention them, and I see this harassment as the primary focus of the article, so the death threats are on topic. Viriditas (talk) 11:20, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Well, I can cite reliable sources - granted, reliable news sources - that assert that CRU did some of the things in the second paragraph. I can say the Telegraph went on a warpath against these guys. I mean, it's not even in their opinion section, so it's fair to say that they pretty much asserted it as fact. Now, keep in mind I'm not arguing (not right now, anyway) that it should be flatly asserted that they actually did these things based on the Telegraph article. I'm arguing that if we water those claims down to "allegations", then it's fair to water down the statement about the death threats down a little bit too. Like I said, while ABC may be a secondary source, it relies heavily on a primary source: the person who said death threats were lobbed against him. Macai (talk) 11:32, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

There are plenty of other sources, like UPI, who write in their lead, "Two British climate scientists involved in a hacking incident have received death threats since their e-mail messages were made public, officials said."[55] Notice the attribution, "officials said". We should do the same, but I would like to know which officials we are talking about. The police, the university, or? But, this is all nit-picking. We can work the details out easily. As for your Telegraph article, that's not really a news source like the one I gave you from UPI. Please notice the absence of opinion. No, the Telegraph article was written by columnist James Delingpole, who has an admitted and known POV slanted against AGW and climate scientists. It's basically an opinion piece. Viriditas (talk) 12:00, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, but Wikipedia's standard on news organizations says this:

Material from mainstream news organizations is welcomed, particularly the high-quality end of the market.

The Telegraph is pretty mainstream, and despite its conservative bias, I could apparently cite it, or the Huffington Post, its counterpart. Hell, I could arguably cite Fox News until the cows come home, since it's pretty damn mainstream in the United States. Supposedly Wikipedia is about verifiability, not truth, hence why a "reliable source" being openly biased (irony) can supposedly be cited anyway, and its claims asserted pretty much as objective truth.

But I digress. I'm proposing we word things in a way that don't read like we're taking sides, that's all. Macai (talk) 12:16, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

But, we can't assert claims from someone like Delingpole as "objective truth". He is a columnist offering a slanted, biased opinion, and he lacks any and all expertise. It probably can't even be used in this article unless it is notable in some way, or connected to the incident. As for sides, there are several different sides, from the CRU, to law enforcement, to political analysis. Our job isn't to take sides but to accurately represent them in proportion to the importance of each subtopic. There is a basic misunderstanding of how Wikipedia works (or how it should work) by many editors who simply "showed up" to edit this article. That's to be expected, but they cannot be allowed to dominate the discourse. Viriditas (talk) 12:42, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

According to this Swiss article Phil Jones at UEA is under police protection because of the threats. I guess that's about the most concrete the media is going to become in the case of death threats unless someone is actually killed. Hans Adler 12:32, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

We went through this nonsensical argument with the hacking. These threats have been reported to various law enforcement authorities in various countries, who have in turn announced investigations. Thus, just as when a family reports a kidnapping and the police announce that they're investigating a kidnapping, we report it as a kidnapping and not an "alleged kidnapping" unless the police themselves express doubt about the nature of the affair. So we treat these death threats. We do not speculate or second guess and we do not insert weasel words to dilute the facts.

On a side issue, we should certainly treat self-reports without corresponding law enforcement investigations differently and not confate those with corresponding investigations. But as there at least two such investigations on different continents that should not pose a probem here as long as we don't get mixed up. --TS 12:46, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

We do not speculate or second guess and we do not insert weasel words to dilute the facts. Does this mean we get to flatly assert that CRU expressed intent to prevent dissenting views from being published in peer reviewed sources? Because I need to make no speculation here, and failing to assert this as objective fact would mean that we do, in fact, "insert weasel words to dilute the facts". Yes or no answer, please. Macai (talk) 12:52, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

I do think we need to honestly explore these areas, and I recommend doing it in a section called "scientific integrity" per the UCS. Viriditas (talk) 12:55, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

"Does this mean we get to flatly assert that CRU expressed intent to prevent dissenting views from being published in peer reviewed sources?" Well no, because as far as I'm aware no reliable source takes that accusation as a true statement of fact. Whereas, the police and the FBI are treating the hacking and the death threats as facts.

Do you not see the distinction? All kinds of allegations have been made about the intent of the emails. An investigation is being conducted to ensure that best scientific practice was followed and that the FOIA compliance procedures at UEA are appropriate for an institution of that type. But the investigator have not asserted that they are investigating wrongdoing, whereas various police forces and the FBI have said they're investigating criminal offences. We report what those reliable sources say. --TS 14:36, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Now on whether the death threats, are factual,we have this in the Guardian:

Two of the scientists involved in "Climategate" – the e-mail hacking incident at the Climatic Research Unit (CRU) of the University of East Anglia, UK – have been emailed death threats since the contents of their private e-mails were leaked to the world. No further information can be revealed about these particular threats at present because they are currently under investigation with the FBI in the United States.

We should report this as fact. --TS 15:08, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

(ec) If it was only mentioned in opinion columns or even news I would agree with Macai. However, that the police and FBI "are [...] investigating death threats" is established. As for the rest, if the police is investigating, that's about as much evidence there's going to be that threats have been made. Apparently the police and the FBI think they are credible. We aren't making any accusations as to who made the threats.

(This habit of starting several discussions on the same subject is getting rather annoying.)
—Apis (talk) 15:23, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Charges of violation of the UK FOI have been made and are being investigated. Charges of hacking/theft and death threats have been made and are being investigated. These three cases should be treated consistently. The charges of scientific misconduct and the investigation into that are, arguably, distinct, although don't see the distinction as important as TS does.Flegelpuss (talk) 06:41, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

Why do we cite a climatologist's theories on origin of the "hackers"?

Professor Jean-Pascal van Ypersele, vice-chairman of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change is quoted in the article on his suggestion that Russian hackers are behind the document leak/theft. He furthermore is quoted informing on the general incidence of hired Russian hackers as well as providing an asessment on the level of technical expertise of said hackers. Looking at his short biographical article I can see no mention of his merits as a computer security analyst. Is this merely an omission in his bio that could easily be rectified? __meco (talk) 14:31, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

It's the opinion of the Vice Chair of the IPCC. It is cited as an indication of the tenor of the IPCC's collective thinking on this matter. It is not cited as fact, but as a significant opinion. --TS 14:37, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Looking at it again, it's not really adding that much, and as there's clearly only circumstantial evidence to support his speculation, I'd be just as happy to remove it. It verges on punditry, which isn't a good sign. --TS 14:50, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

It's part of a systemic problem - as yet, we don't have an article, we have (at least in parts) a collection of quotes. We need to work on converting this into an article, which deals with topic-by-topic (e.g., Tony's list of 6 facts higher up the page), rather than player-by-player. Start thinking FA or GA, even if this may never be stable enough for something like that. Guettarda (talk) 15:07, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

You mean this list?

• documents were hacked
• accusations were made, some wild and some less wild
• most of the scientific community closed ranks behind the scientists; some however expressed concern
• an investigation of allegations against CRU scientists has been announced
• the hacking is being investigated
• death threats are being investigated.

Needs some work, but I suppose it's a start. --TS 15:13, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Yep, that's the list I was talking about. Thanks. Guettarda (talk) 17:42, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

I agree we should remove that quote (unless there is some widespread belief that the Russians did it). I also agree that we should focus more on facts and less on comments and speculations, list looks nice.
—Apis (talk) 15:54, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

While we're at it, can we identify any more instances where a person's opinion is expressed outside his expertise or responsibilities? --TS 16:08, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

So I guess I didn't actually make this argument in detail days ago, under the heading "Russian Hackers." Drolz⁰⁹ 23:27, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

{{editprotected}} There is consensus to remove the reference to Professor Jean-Pascal van Ypersele's opinion on the identity of the hackers:

Commenting on the theft, Professor Jean-Pascal van Ypersele, vice-chairman of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC), suggested that it was the work of hired Russian hackers: "It’s very common for hackers in Russia to be paid for their services... it's a carefully made selection of e-mails and documents that’s not random at all. This is 13 years of data and it’s not a job of amateurs.”

--TS 23:45, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

 Removed — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 23:52, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Is there any way you could wait more than 6 hours to declare consensus? Not all of use monitor Wikipedia 24/7. -Atmoz (talk) 00:51, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

I agree with the removal. The quote is sheer speculation with no indication of any evidence whatsoever to back it up. It is a malicious slur against Russia, with Russian officials provided no opportunity to rebut, in violation of WP:Undue_Weight and the good advice to avoid gratuitously bashing non-English-speaking cultures in English Wikipedia articles. The quote doesn't belong in a Wikipedia article.Flegelpuss (talk) 06:54, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

I appreciate Atmoz's point. I should have waited. On the other hand I think this was an obvious case because we don't have a reliable secondary source for the first part of the quote. There are a lot of frayed nerves because of the off-wiki contentiousness of this topic, so I see it as important to respond promptly and without demur when it becomes obvious that part of the article attributes words to an individual without acceptable sourcing. For that reason I won't ask the admin to reverse. --TS 11:41, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

Referencing the Trick

This article outlines the pro and con views of the trick, however glosses over what the trick actually was. There is a simple description of the trick here and its effect on the data's presentation. Perhaps we could add something along this line, and give the reader themselves the ability to assess for themself if the trick was honest or not. 117.55.206.25 (talk) 13:31, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

It's also explained here and here. However, we usually cannot state things from opinion pieces (or press releases) as facts, and we rely on reliable sources, which blogs usually are not.
—Apis (talk) 15:37, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

This blogger is no more a reliable source on climate than the wattsupwiththat fellow. See Stephen McIntyre for details of his background. --TS 16:12, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

I agree, we need something better before it can be incorporated.--SPhilbrickT 17:15, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Currently the article contains a detailed description of what the researchers did, and cites three or four reliable sources containing statements by climate scientists to support it. I don't think we need any more. It's as if some people are reading about the trick and can't believe it's that simple. They want it to be something complicated, nefarious and unrelated to the science. But it's none of those things. It isn't a trick in the sense of a card trick. The scientists have nothing up their sleeves. --TS 00:19, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

The article gives undue weight to the scientists who have expressed support, often without having read the e-mails, and an insufficient weight to the many scientists such as Steve McIntyre who have read and publicly analyzed the e-mails, for example what the "trick...to hide the decline" actually was.Flegelpuss (talk) 07:02, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

Climate Audit articles are the most scientifically proficient articles on climate science on the Internet and are extremely well reviewed by dozens of scientific peers in their comments section. It is a highly reliable source for analysis of the contents of the leaked documents, alleged rule technicalities notwithstanding.Flegelpuss (talk) 07:02, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

Attempting to undermine trust and integrity in climate science simply by taking words out of context from stolen e-mails is neither proficient nor a form of analysis. This is a total non-issue on par with attempts to October Surprise Carter, remove babies from the incubators in the Gulf War, Lewinsky Clinton, Diebold Gore, truther 9/11, no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, Swiftboat Kerry, birther Obama, and teaparty the U.S. economy. It's the sound of paid protesters disrupting healthcare town hall meetings, and its got the look of gun nuts carrying photographs of the President in Hitler garb. It's all mindless distractions with no substance and deep undercurents of violence and anarchy. When Andrew Breitbart goes on to twitter and calls for the capital punishment of climate scientists and when Drudge says that global warming isn't occurring, and when Fox argues that global warming is a myth, it's clear that the American media can no longer be taken seriously or trusted uncritically. The real discussion is occurring at Copenhagen, and this entire incident is a manufactured controversy intended to distract the public away from the real topic. Viriditas (talk) 07:18, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

Move proposal: move this article to "Climatic Research Unit Incident"

As this discussion seems to have developed into a serious proposal with considerable support, I've moved this section to the bottom of the discussion page where it will get more attention --TS 15:59, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Climatic Research Unit e-mail hacking incident → Climatic Research Unit incident — Other data besides email were included in the incident; there is some debate whether this was a leak or a hack - should these be reflected in the title? - 2/0 (cont.) 16:36, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

The article's name seems misguided as more than emails were hacked...there are thousands of pages of source code and other documents "hacked." There is also controversy surrounding whether they were hacked or leaked. Perhaps the article should be renamed Climatic Research Unit incident ...the name seems far more neutral without adding extra emphasis on the e-mails.Smallman12q (talk) 01:09, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

We had a smilar discussion at the german lemma, here it was renamed from Climategate or E-Mail incident to a lengthy translation of the english lemma. Keep me posted :) --Polentario (talk) 03:06, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Maybe we can just remove the "e-mail" from the name? Then change the opening line to reflect it? Ignignot (talk) 04:42, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Polentario, I wouldn't put too much faith in the English Wikipedia on this topic. We have a severe POV-pushing problem here between two different sides. The current article name merely reflects which side has better Wikilawyering skills. I suspect the best name for the article is either "Climate Research Unit e-mail controversy" or "Climate Research Unit documents controversy" but it's not a battle I'm willing to fight. I hope that helps. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 05:26, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

There seems to be evidence they were leaked, not "stolen" or "hacked" in the traditional sense. A name change would make sense (perhaps "scandal"?). Riley Ralston (talk) 05:41, 9 December 2009 (UTC)user was blocked as a sockpuppet Kim D. Petersen (talk)

We already have a guideline which addresses this issue. "Scandal" is a word to avoid. So, no, we can't use "scandal". A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 05:47, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

I would agree that either "Climate Research Unit e-mail controversy" or "Climate Research Unit documents controversy" is best. Doesn't reference a hack which is unproven and (surprising to me) appears increasingly less like what actually happened. Doesn't reference Climategate. Indicates that there is a controversy over documents/emails without saying whether the controversy revolves around their content or matter of acquisition, which is an acceptable compromise, I believe (and really, outside of wikipedia, the controversy is the content). Drolz (talk) 06:32, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

As I'm sure AQFK noticed when he typed that link, controversy is also a word to avoid: WP:Words to avoid#Controversy and scandal. Actually this has been discussed a few times before, might be worth looking over previous suggestions an comments as well.
—Apis (talk) 06:51, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

The page says to avoid using "controversy" except in cases where the is clearly a debate going on. That is, cases exactly like this one. Drolz (talk) 08:12, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

I agree that we should continue to discuss possible names for this article with a view to achieving consensus. So far we seem to be bogged down, though. Most of the suggested alternatives have irresolvable problems. --TS 10:10, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

"A controversy is defined as "a discussion marked especially by the expression of opposing views", but is often used in place of the words scandal and affair, and often by editors with a strong disposition against the article subject. The term should be used carefully and only when it is interchangeable with the words debate or dispute." Controversy is clearly an appropriate name for this topic. There is, in fact, no other word to accurately describe it. Incident needs to be replaced ASAP because it strongly implies that this was an isolated occurrence rather than an ongoing and developing story. "Climate Research Unit File Controversy" fairly describes what is going on. Constantly objecting to proposed names without finding alternatives is not constructive behavior, and only serves to keep the current, biased name in place. Drolz (talk) 10:45, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

The emphasis used above is not part of the original text. A different part to "highlight" could be: "[controversy] is often used in place of the words scandal and affair, and often by editors with a strong disposition against the article subject."
—Apis (talk) 22:07, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Maybe 'Climate Research Unit FOIA Controversy' or just 'Climate Research Unit Incident'? I don't want to contribute to sending the discussion off in a hundred directions at once, it's just that 'File Controversy' is a bit strange to me. The current title is clumsy, but I don't have strong opinions on alternatives.Dduff442 (talk) 10:54, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

There are now 3,000,000 google hits for "climategate" ... and google seems to be back censoring the term "climategate" in its "quick text" feature (or whatever it is called), because again it suggested "climate guatemala" even when I had "climateg..". But of course, according to the "scientists" who edit these articles, the google hit rate is going down, there is no censorship of wikipedia, and there never was a scandal. 88.109.60.215 (talk) 11:12, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Actually there are only 680. Those numbers that Google puts up at the top are actually pretty meaningless. Guettarda (talk) 06:19, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

Climategate is neither neutral or encyclopedic language. The word is in the article, just not in the title.Dduff442 (talk) 11:22, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

FOIA would be fine with me, but others would probably consider email or documents better. Again I think controversy is obviously better than incident. I agree about file in retrospect-awkward. Drolz (talk) 11:48, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

"As I'm sure AQFK noticed when he typed that link, controversy is also a word to avoid". Actually, per WP:AVOID, "When using words such as controversy or conflict, make sure the sources support the existence of a controversy or conflict." Numerous reliable sources are using the term 'controversy' including: The Times, Washington Post, Time Magazine, US News & World Report, TechNewsWorld, The Star, Mail & Guardian, Scientific American, Live Science, Politico, Irish Times, St Petersburg Times, Sidney Morning Herald, Seattle Times, New York Times, Chicago Tribune, and Reuters A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 16:44, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Wallstreet Journal The Guardian Los Angeles Times Christian Science Monitor San Francisco Chronicle FOX News The Boston Globe Business Week Forbes MSNBC The Miami Herald The Scotsman Cosmos Magazine CNBC New Zealand Herald BBC News A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 17:16, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Climate Research Unit Incident or Climate Research Unit Controversy are each fine by me. As Monbiot points out, attempting to deny there's a scientific controversy (of whatever severity; mild to moderate IMO) simply erodes the credibility of the person making the claim and the credibility of climate science generally. Von Storch's attitude reflects my views as well. There's the hacking controversy as well of course.

My only real objection to the current title is its incredible clumsiness.Dduff442 (talk) 17:24, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

I don't know where Monbiot or any other serious commentator has said there is a scientific controversy: there may be a career crisis for 3 - 4 scientists, but there is no controversy with regard to the science itself and the other several thousand scientists involved in it. Has anybody called for the cancellation or postponement of COP15? If there were serious scientific controversy over AGW, that would have happened. That is just the extreme-right, big-oil fringe trying to have a last word. This is the article about the incident, and all its ramifications, in that there are no others, just what we have here. For sure, the only mention at Copenhagen has been the Saudis, and what could their motivation be? --Nigelj (talk) 17:35, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Sry about late reply; didn't notice your post. It all depends upon what you mean by 'crisis'. For sure, the incident is insufficient to cast into question the massive body of work on AGW. It seriously damages the prestige and credibility of the discipline in the public mind, however, and by extension the environmental movement's ability to mobilise public opinion. Morale, strangely enough, is also important. The deniers are ebullient at the moment.Dduff442 (talk) 15:13, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

It might be better to be more specific in the title. Perhaps it should be "2009 Climatic Research Unit incident", or "Climatic Research Unit data theft", or something like that. Use of "controversy" should be avoided at all costs, particularly because there is nothing controversial about the theft of data (it happens all the time). -- Scjessey (talk) 18:57, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Scjessey's suggestion, "CRU incident" or "CRU data theft" is OK by me. Also consider other similar articles, Pentagon Papers for example, it's not called pentagon controversy or pentagon scandal not even pentagate.
—Apis (talk) 21:58, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

It wouldn't be called Pentagate because because Watergate happened after the Pentagon Papers. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 22:18, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Yes sorry, Pentagate was added as irony, but that was unnecessary and it's easily misunderstood here. Point is, we should strive to use a neutral name.
—Apis (talk) 22:35, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Since Wikipedia is based off consensus, perhaps we could take a vote...

Do you support renaming this article to "Climatic Research Unit Incident" (or something similar such as 2009 CRU Incident)Smallman12q (talk) 15:03, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Support

1. Smallman12q (talk) 15:03, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
2. (I'd leave out 2009)Dduff442 (talk) 15:08, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
3. It's not just about email or about hacking. Gigs (talk) 20:13, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
4. Also prefer to exclude the year. Would be okay with "Climatic Research Unit documents incident" as well. -- Scjessey (talk) 20:17, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
5. Support Drolz (talk) 20:45, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
6. It's the content and the reaction to it, not the *alleged* hacking, that makes this a notable event.Flegelpuss (talk) 02:45, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
7. Per Scjessey or Climatic Research Unit files incident. Itsmejudith (talk) 16:16, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
8. Per Judith & Scjessey. Despite what some may think, I'm not actually opposed to controversy since I feel controversy doesn't imply there was any wrongdoing on the part of the CRU or scientists involved but given the controversy that will cause (pun semi-intended) incident is probably the best compromise Nil Einne (talk)
9. Support. "Controversy" would be better but I'll support "incident." Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 16:47, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
10. Qualified support Agree that "Climatic Research Unit documents incident" is neutral and accurate. Collect (talk) 16:50, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
11. Support. Would be happy with "Climatic Research Unit incident", "Climatic Research Unit documents incident" or "Climatic Research Unit controversy". I think the last is the best, but recognize some are quite opposed, so eith er of the first two are clearly better than the current, misleading title.--SPhilbrickT 17:20, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
12. Support. It's a better title.--Heyitspeter (talk) 21:30, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
13. Support. though "Climatic Research Unit Research Misconduct Incident" would be more descriptive -- 97.125.30.19 (talk) 00:26, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

    — 97.125.30.19 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

14. Support Fresno Area Rapid Transit (talk) 01:24, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

    — Fresno Area Rapid Transit (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

Oppose

1. Whats wrong with Climategate?? Peterlewis (talk) 15:07, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

   Should this be recategorized as "On the Fence", or does Peter really prefer the current name, which is not "ClimateGate", to the proposal?Flegelpuss (talk) 02:54, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

   It should be left as it is - Peter is opposing the name change, he is not on any fence. Brumski (talk) 16:31, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

   'Climategate' isn't an option. '-gate' is listed as a word to avoid for article titles accoring to this guideline: WP:AVOID. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 17:35, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

2. If we miss out the hacking, then we've missed the point of the article. The persistent notion that there is significant debate over whether it was a hacking or a leak is addressed in the FAQ. UEA has reported a hacking incident to the police and the police are investigating it as a criminal offence, and there is absolutely no evidence to support the speculation that there was no hack. I'd also like to go on record as disliking this "vote" format. It's never a good way to manage a discussion on a wiki. --TS 22:29, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
3. The proposed name ("Climatic Research Unit Incident") is far too vague. The clear weight of the media is behind that this was a hacking incident, and the largest majority of the media discussion has been about the e-mails disclosed. We cannot really leave either of these terms out, without making the title almost meaningless. When I say media, I mean, of course the WP:RS media, not the looney/denier blogosphere. --Nigelj (talk) 16:04, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
4. The arguments for changing the name aren't persuasive, so I'm OK with leaving it as it is. I'm with TS RE the vote as well. Brumski (talk) 16:31, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
5. Vague to the point of being meaningless. Guettarda (talk) 17:37, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

   I have mixed feeling about "email" (although the other files have attracted little attention, so it's really not too bad). I think "hacking" is a crucial element. Guettarda (talk) 18:26, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

   I'm not wedded to "incident", but I can't think of a better word at the moment. Guettarda (talk) 18:27, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

6. Weak oppose. I still think that 'Climate Research Unit e-mail controversy' or 'Climate Research Unit documents controversy' are the most descriptive and accurate names for this subject, and in-line with the terminology used by WP:RS. However, I'm fine with whatever the majority decides. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 17:41, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
7. As Guettarda points out, the proposed rename is hopelessly vague. We are required to use descriptive names for articles, which this certainly wouldn't be. I am also rather suspicious of the rationale behind this proposal, given the repeated attempts to whitewash any mention of hacking from this article; I note that some of the supporting comments invoke this POV, which relies on nothing more than a few bloggers' wild speculations. And in fact, immediately below in #Further discusssion, the editor who proposed this change is busy pushing the (completely unsourced) line that the files were not hacked. His motive for deleting "hacking" from the title seems to be fairly transparent. -- ChrisO (talk) 19:12, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

   I'd just like to point out that I'm in favor of removing "hacking" for the reason that it allows for an article of broader scope -- so at least one editor has other motives than those you mentioned. But your point is noted. jheiv (talk) 19:32, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

8. Meaningless proposal. Current name is widely recognized and the e-mails are the locus of the discussion. "Controversy" is not recommended for any article. Viriditas (talk) 23:23, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
9. Hacking should be in the title. -Atmoz (talk) 00:47, 12 December 2009 (UTC)
10. Oppose. "Climatic Research Unit Incident" is too vague to be taken seriously. What's next, The New York Incident for the 2008-9 financial collapse? The American Incident for the Civil War? Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 01:00, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

    Well.. This would be more like referring to the American civil war of the 1850's as the 'War Between the States'. It might not be any clearer than 'the Civil War', but one would think it should be easier to agree on than describing that war as the 'War of Northern Aggression' or something related to opposition to secession or the preservation of the Union. Nevard (talk) 01:36, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

11. Oppose as per the above, hacking is the major part of this controversy. Email while not entirely correct, is what the major focus of media attention has been on - whenever they explain the controversy, they mention emails as the most important part. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 01:07, 12 December 2009 (UTC)
12. Opposing with general agreement on weasel-like confusion of new name. It'll likely need a rename to something more official at some point, but this shouldn't be it. As far as someone browsing would know, the article is about an inexplicable explosion at the settled South Pole research facility sparked by Penguin extremists protesting the loss of their icebergs. That's, uh, technically every aspect of the new name, and also far sillier and what I wish we could have there. Hell, we don't even know if this story has a true notable future or might end up a section in an article of the conference as a whole. If this happened at any other time in the past 10 years no one would have cared. The Penguin Extremists who stole WMD from one of those frightful micronations in the region that demand sovereignty and a Wikipedia article? Oh yea. Now that'd be notable. ♪ daTheisen(talk) 05:50, 12 December 2009 (UTC)
13. Oppose, the hack and e-mails have been central to the discussion, without them there would be no "incident". Simply incident is too vague. It's true that more than e-mails were stolen, but as pointed out, there have been little discussion about the other files.
    —Apis (talk) 07:01, 12 December 2009 (UTC)
14. Opposed until we sort out what the mission statement is for the article. MarkNau (talk) 22:43, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
15. Oppose for now. Kittybrewster ☎ 14:11, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

On the fence

1. Undecided. Would prefer "controversy", but I do feel removing "hacking" gets us closer. It seems there is significant support for "controversy", but as not to derail this vote, should I just let this vote go the way it looks like it will, then propose the change? jheiv (talk) 18:17, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Further discusssion

There is controversy surrounding whether they were hacked or leaked. I generally dislike the voting format, but I don't see any other way to demonstrate a consensus for the change.Smallman12q (talk) 00:32, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

There is no consensus for change. Look in the archives. It's been discussed to death. --TS 00:36, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

It looks like there is indeed rough consensus for a change, your opposition effectively stands alone here. Gigs (talk) 02:58, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

'Climategate' is simply a non-runner - it's been thoroughly dispensed with elsewhere. The vote is only reasonable as a last resort however it looks like the only way of at least cutting down the field of options. A solid majority position has been established. Now it's really down to the opponents to decide why it is they rule out the new wording. 'Functional' is probably the most charitable description for the current title. Dduff442 (talk) 00:39, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

So what's holding us up here? The lone dissenter seems not to be active. Dduff442 (talk) 12:44, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

TS is active. Peterlewis is AWOL, but he didn't really oppose the rename per se anyway. "Climatic Research Unit documents incident" then? If you think we are ready to go, we should put {{editprotected}} followed by the rename request, and an admin will come review consensus and do the move. Gigs (talk) 14:11, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

I agree that there now appears to be quite a bit of support for this. As the discussion was previously in the middle of the page, however, and many involved in other discussions on the page haven't weighed in, I'd suggest that we give it another couple of days to allow them to comment if they want to. I've moved this section to the end to increase its prominence (I almost missed it myself). --TS 15:42, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

I've gone ahead and tagged it for WP:RM. Apparently we're supposed to leave seven days for discussion (which seems reasonable to me). --TS 16:00, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Your listing there is anything but neutral. Can you reformulate it in a more neutral manner that doesn't put words in people's mouths? Gigs (talk) 16:09, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

I'd prefer you to do it. Just rewrite it using your own words and replace the signature. As I said, my words were just a formal placeholder. --TS 16:15, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Will do, thanks. Gigs (talk) 16:22, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

The template is supposed to open discussion, not close it. Fixed. I also decapitalized incident. - 2/0 (cont.) 16:36, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

I'm fine with this version, thanks. Gigs (talk) 16:49, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Don't forget, this is not a vote, it is an attempt to gauge current consensus. Therefore the quality of the arguments given for and against each comment will have to be judged and weighed, not just the numbers of them compared. --Nigelj (talk)

That's some strange twist of logic. Ignoring !votes not based on policy reasons when there is a question of policy such as at an XfD is one thing. For something like this where it's more of a simple gauge of current opinion, accompanied with pages of actual discussion, it's kind of a strange argument to make. I agree that a simple majority doesn't indicate consensus, and people shouldn't confuse a straw poll with some kind of binding vote in any normal sense, but I think you've taken the logic a step too far. Gigs (talk) 16:41, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Harrumph. I've no objection to the word hacking, it's just that its inclusion in the title isn't a major concern. Looks like I misjudged the state of opinion on this. We're as far from agreement as ever. Dduff442 (talk) 16:49, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Everyone doesn't need to agree with the change, everyone should agree that there is consensus for making it before any change is made. Gigs (talk) 16:54, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

In terms of the 'voting is a bad idea' I'm actually of the opinion it's a good idea here. It's apparent that there's significant ill feeling on both sides and a lot of discussions get heated and quite a few just degrade into back and forths, after a while usually repeating the same thing that's been discussed before, sometimes with some unnecessary sniping, sometimes eventually only involving a few and the same editors. And yes I've been a part of that on occassion. The protection also indicates a breakdown in communication and discussion. A move!vote, which is actually a fairly establised part of proposed page moves (and often used even when a page move appears non controversial but to check or even if there's been limited discussion but the proposer feels it's merited) is a good way IMHO for all to gauge their position. If editors find themselves supporting a clearly minimally supported option, even if it's not enough for consensus on a move, my hope is they will reassess their position and work towards compromise. This isn't something like Myanmar/Burma where there's only 1 option. Perhaps this won't happen but we'll just get more of the same, only time will tell. I would remind editors that nothing here is set in stone. It's perfectly fine to revisit this in 3 months if it appears things have changed and given the nature of this story, it may be the case. Nil Einne (talk) 16:59, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

A vote can help sift out the realistic options from the non starters. I think the sceptics would make more headway if they structured their efforts and were less diffuse in their targetting. Their sense of outraged frustration is palpable however their own approach lacks practicality. Dduff442 (talk) 17:37, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Do we have very many skeptics left editing the article? Most of them have been effectively banned with the page restrictions. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 17:43, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

This stems in part from the very lack of practicality I referred to. Rather than getting stuck in to reverts etc, which is a numbers game you can only lose, some progress might be possible if you focused on patient argumentation on a more limited range of issues. I only mention this because, as an AGW proponent, I think the perception (valid or invalid, I make no call) that the system is stacked against you creates a sense of righteous indignation and only serves to fuel the fire. Dduff442 (talk) 17:55, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

AQFN, there are no restrictions (afaik) on contributing to this Talk page. The idea of restricting access to the article is only to reduce ill-informed and un-supported edits to it, not to weed out one or more types of opinion. It gives new and inexperienced contributors a chance to find out about WP policies and procedures before hacking the article to a mess in their enthusiasm to get a point across, before they find out how things work here. --Nigelj (talk) 18:05, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Dduff, the system is stacked against them. By design, we have a systemic bias toward published scientific works. Its usually not a bad thing, but it definitely puts a spin on these more politicized science articles. Gigs (talk) 18:08, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

(Back on the topic of the name change) I'd actually prefer "controversy" to be quite honest as I feel it most aptly describes the situation. While I understand it is "a word to avoid", consider the precedent of Killian documents controversy, and the fact that it has found its way into at least one related article: Global warming controversy. jheiv (talk) 18:10, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

I am not opposed to "controversy". My only caveat is that this does not seem to be as much of an ongoing issue in the mainstream media, so it may be more appropriate to retain "incident", but I'm OK with either way. Gigs (talk) 18:13, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Equally important, don't forget, is the feeling disseminated across widely in the loonier reaches of the blogosphere, Conservapedia etc, that this hacking incident represents the 'final nail in the coffin' that exposes all the 'fraud and manipulations by scientists' and so overturns the whole global warming 'theory'. Those guys don't want us to be discussing a 'hacking incident', but a glorious liberation of true knowledge that puts the whole oily world back as they like it. The sub-text of the title must not be allowed to drift in that direction. --Nigelj (talk) 18:58, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Spin and distortion are as old as the hills. I wouldn't be too threatened by conservapedia... they're a minority of a minority. If our own house is kept in order, we have nothing to fear.Dduff442 (talk) 19:10, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

It's not so much Conservapedia that's the problem, it's all the Glenn Beck fans and naive or uninformed people who confuse bloggers' speculations with reliably sourced facts. That said, I can live with "controversy" in the title, since the issue discussed in the article is not just the initial hacking incident but the subsequent controversy. -- ChrisO (talk) 19:19, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Their article is funny. But I only got about half-way through before I got bored and quit reading it. It does, however, score over our version in that I didn't read any sections that read like a list. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 22:59, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

I've read that Conservapedia's founder Andrew Schlafly was on Colbert recently. I wonder if he took the opportunity to mention the imminent demise of the communist socialist atheist homosexualist satanist conspiracy. --TS 23:54, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Some of the arguments here are seriously jumping the shark. Senator James Inhofe, Ex-Vice Presidential candidate Sarah Palin, statistician Steven McIntyre, the number one news channel Fox News, the Washington Times, the Wall Street Journal, etc. etc. are mainstream America, they are not "the loony fringe" or anywhere approaching it, no matter how strongly many editors here seem to wish they could portray them that way. Ditto for Russian government officials, Lord Lawson and many others in Britain, and so on for their countries. Also, folks who claim the article is about the hacking have to realize that police, prosecutors, and computer security officials are then the appropriate experts to quote, not scientists. Only if the article is about the content of the documents, the events discussed in the documents, and reactions to these documents and events, is it appropriate for the article to be quoting scientists as experts, as well as politicians on the political consequences of this scandal. Despite the silly claims to the contrary, the extensive coverage given to scientists in the article shows that it is obviously about the content of the documents, and the events discussed in the documents, not about the hacking, as in fact it should be, reflecting the extremely voluminous debate over the content and events discussed in the documents that any Google search on any of the famous quotes will readily find.Flegelpuss (talk) 07:48, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

Argument from authority. Please read and familiarize yourself with it. Viriditas (talk) 08:44, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

Not necessarily. FOX News, the Washington Times and the Wall Street Journal are all reliable sources. Assuming that these are straight news sources, it's not Argument from authority, it's the very essence of Wikipedia and exactly how we're supposed to write this article. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 14:41, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

CNN: Tracking down the 'Climategate' hackers

http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/europe/12/11/hacking.emails.climate.skeptics/ A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 21:52, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Thin on detail, unfortunately. The author has spoken to an activist, a senator and a couple of uninvolved security experts, maybe looked at a few Wikipedia articles on hacking techniques, and then cobbled together an article based on their statements. No actual facts related to the investigation that are not already known are given. --TS 22:30, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

No, but there's still some debate as to whether the leak came from hackers or insiders. I posted this as a sample of a news article which doesn't even mention the insider possibility. BTW, I don't really care about the question in the FAQ about this issue. For now, the media seems to reporting it as a hack, but it's not completely out of the realm of possibility for it be an insider. The FAQ makes it sound like the issue is settled, but in reality we may not know what really happened until the investigations are complete. Maybe we should add a sentence that says something like, "If new information comes forward from relable sources, we can re-examine the issue." A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 22:56, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

This article examines the possibility that the Russian secret service was responsible.[56]. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 23:12, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

We're probably going around in circles. We've just reached consensus to remove a reference to Ypersele's opinion, and he's the only source quoted in this Independent article directly linking Russian hackers to the incident. --TS 23:49, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I must have missed out on that discussion. Nevermind. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 00:06, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

Russia Today

The effects on the COP15 conference: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0SHrq4FteI —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.172.116.188 (talk) 22:26, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

What about them? Itsmejudith (talk) 00:21, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

Legitimate Source?

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Linking to illegally obtained copyrighted original sources without the permission of the copyright holder infringes copyright and violates the no original research policy.

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The New York Times links to this site: East Anglia Confirmed Emails from the Climate Research Unit - Searchable. (Actually, they link to http://www.anelegantchaos.org/cru/ which redirects to http://www.eastangliaemails.com/index.php). eastangliaemails.com sports a banner for the Opinion Times which makes me worried. It would be nice to have a source of the entire e-mails, at least to use as the reference for email quotes in articles, offering the reader a place to read the entire message and understand the context. I really can't defend the site as a RS, but maybe someone else can... jheiv (talk) 05:47, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

The files have been on that site for a while. We can't like to it, since it's a copyvio, and a pretty severe invasion of privacy, in addition to being stolen files. Even if we could, they have not been authenticated by anyone who has compared the files to the originals - no way to tell if anything was modified.

The hacked files are an unverified, unpublished primary source. So I don't see how we could use them as a source. Guettarda (talk) 05:57, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

We can link to it, and to the Wikileaks archive, just as the Sarah Palin email hack page links to Wikileaks archive of those emails. If anybody here really believes it is a copyright or BLP violation you should go delete the Wikileaks link from the Palin page ASAP, otherwise we are entitled to not take you seriously. As with the Palin emails, none of the ClimateGate document authors have challenged the authenticity of any of the contents and they have been looked at by millions, including authors and recipients of the e-mails, with nobody finding any inconsistencies.Flegelpuss (talk) 08:10, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

Other articles exist. I'm not sure what's been decided in that article or if that link is even kosher, but we can't link to it here for the reasons that Guettarda gives above. Viriditas (talk) 08:16, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. No. -- ChrisO (talk) 08:16, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Misuse of the word "skeptic"

The so-called climate change "skeptics" are actually deniers or contrarians. They are a small, but vocal minority, and the media provides them with a lot of airtime. There are a number of very close similarities between the relationship the contarians have with the media and the vocal anti-vaccination movement. I suggest that the word "skeptics" should not be associated with these contrarians, as it implies that their skepticism is based on actual science. Viriditas (talk) 06:25, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

I would hate to generalize... and I'm also not convinced that their skepticism is not based on science. You may have strong feelings, but can anyone really state this as a fact. More importantly, however, this really seems like a pointless section on a page that otherwise has some interesting debates on it -- I suggest eliminating it (feel free to take my response with it). jheiv (talk) 06:59, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

I suggest discussing it, not ignoring it. What is a climate skeptic? Please define it for me. Thanks. Viriditas (talk) 07:02, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

A climate skeptic, in the context of this discussion (the one about AGW, etc) is someone who does not believe that AGW or GW in general is founded in reality. Macai (talk) 08:13, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

You know, that's the funny thing. I've tried to find information that supports that idea, but I can't. Some of these so-called "skeptics" believe in global warming, but don't believe in anthropogenic GW, and quite a few simply take the position that GW is a good thing and promote the benefits of a warmer world. Some go so far as to argue that the planet is cooling. But I really don't see any actual "skepticism", which is a trait of most good scientists, not deniers or contrarians. So, I don't think your definition holds or is true. In fact, I wager there is no such thing as a climate skeptic. Viriditas (talk) 08:20, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

The problem is 'deniers' is obviously POV, not to mention a bit sly given the evocation of Holocaust denial. Many sceptics are just deniers but proving this reliably by reference to secondary sources is problematic. Certainly labelling all sceptics as deniers is counter productive. Look beyond the narrow debate between scientists and single-issue commentators and you'll find many of the sceptics are simply poorly informed, stupid or just unreasonable. Blanket criticism then just serves to drive these people into the deniers' arms.Dduff442 (talk) 09:49, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

I don't agree with the closure of this thread, as I specifically proposed using deniers or contrarians. The word "denier" has been reasonably disputed, so therefore, I await to hear from somebody about the word "contrarian". What is wrong with this word? Viriditas (talk) 12:08, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

For the record, I closed it citing Talk:Climatic_Research_Unit_e-mail_hacking_incident/Archive_8#Sceptics. I'm sorry if that was inappropriate. --TS 12:29, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

I understand. And, if you can answer the question, you can once again close it. Looking through the literature, I see that the term "contrarian" is used to describe climate skeptics. Viriditas (talk) 12:45, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

"Skeptic" might not be the best word to use, but nevertheless, it is the term that reliable sources are using. It's not up to us as Wikipedia editors to say that reliable sources are wrong. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 13:41, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

To answer Viriditas' question, I have used the word "contrarian" colloquially on talk pages, but I'm not satisfied that it's an appropriate word to use where the phrase "climate change sceptic" is more descriptive and neutral. I'm opposed to using it because it's the kind of word we would classify among words to avoid, even if for whatever reason this particular word is not currently listed there. --TS 14:58, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

Source code sections appropriate?

Are source code sections (mostly comments)(like these) acceptable for the article? Thoughts? jheiv (talk) 07:37, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

Not acceptable in the slightest. The link goes to an opinion column written by Lorrie Goldstein, a known climate change and global warming denier.[57] Viriditas (talk) 07:46, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

I may have listened to the first part of your argument with more consideration, but considering the fact that you backup your view with the fact that the author who mentioned the code is a "denier", I skipped it entirely -- and to be honest, I'm starting to skip your !additions to the talk page with increasing frequency. jheiv (talk) 09:11, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

I'm wondering why we should cite a newspaper opinion columnist's opinion of computer code. It's hardly within his area of expertise. -- ChrisO (talk) 08:19, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

Because the source Viriditas just cited isn't biased. Anyway, the Toronto Sun is a pretty mainstream source, at least in Canada. This merits its inclusion as per Wikipedia's standard on news sources. Macai (talk) 08:22, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

Not true at all. 1) The source I cited is biased, but supports my statement. It is not appropriate for the article, however. 2) Goldstein is a columnist, known for her strong (some have called her "hysterical") opinion against climate change remediation in any form, and she claims that all of the science is a fraud. Goldstein is neither authoritative, accurate, or neutral on the subject. This is not a reliable source for this article. Viriditas (talk) 08:27, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

Again, if all you are going to do when a source to consider is presented is argue that the author is somehow biased then please just close your browser. These are !additions and getting frustrating to read. jheiv (talk) 09:41, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

But, that isn't what I'm doing at all. Quite the opposite, actually. 1) Is Goldstein an authority on climate change? 2) Does Goldstein have a record for neutrality and accuracy? 3) Is Goldstein's opinion notable or representative of the topic? Viriditas (talk) 12:31, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

Oh really? It cites the Small Dead Animals blog as its source. This is merely a regurgitation of a blog posting, quoting a readme text file without much context, larded with the columnist's own non-expert opinion. -- ChrisO (talk) 08:28, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

Not quoting anyone for their expertise, but rather quoting someone on their reporting about the entirely-human-comprehensible comments (if quoting anyone other than the source itself, that is.) jheiv (talk) 09:11, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

What reporting? It's Goldstein's extremist opinion versus the world. Jheiv, do you know what actual reporting looks like? Viriditas (talk) 12:32, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

Quite acceptable, even required. The source code comments and HARRY_README file have been analyzed by many software experts and discussed in hundreds of detailed Internet articles: they are highly notable. There is no dispute over the authenticity of the quotes in the above. Thus to argue that WP:RS forbids it is as a mere opinion piece is to argue by technicality and against the spirit of the rules and principles of Wikipedia. Of course, it would be better to find a more strictly conforming RS.Flegelpuss (talk) 08:30, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

I'm afraid you have a misunderstanding of how we use sources. There is nothing about the source that is acceptable in any way. Viriditas (talk) 08:32, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

"discussed in hundreds of detailed Internet articles" - i.e. blogs. Which we cannot use as you know perfectly well. -- ChrisO (talk) 08:33, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

Lets get back on track. The question isn't about whether the commentary about the source code is of value, but whether the comments in the source code are valuable. Specifically, why they would not be just as worthy as the emails we have on the article. Please leave your politics at the door (as much as possible). 09:11, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

Please provide a source for us to review. The one above is not acceptable. Viriditas (talk) 09:42, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

I guess simply stating something is not acceptable, without explanation, makes it so. Not all that surprising that you reason that way but I'll humor you:

Except, that I have specifically explained why it is not acceptable many times. Viriditas (talk) 12:34, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

• Congress May Probe Leaked Global Warming E-Mails
• HARRY_READ_ME.txt
• The Harry Read_Me File
• Climategate: hide the decline – codified
• Interesting ways to conduct science
• Climategate’s Harry_Read_Me.txt: We All Really Should
• SOYLENT GREEN: The Harry_Read_Me File
• Tickerforum.org

(Please note that I am aware that not all of these would be RS or linkable, but I figured I'd give my good friend V some reading homework)

Its pretty clear that the text files are of the same merit as the emails, both getting significant coverage from RS, so lets not draw this debate out any longer. I'll work on including them when the page protection expires. G'night jheiv (talk) 10:22, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

Care to tell me exactly what I should be looking for here? Viriditas (talk) 12:34, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

A thought from Cardinal Richelieu

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Please use this talk page to discuss how to improve the article.

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"If you give me six lines written by the most honest man, I will find something in them to hang him." - Cardinal Richelieu. Something to bear in mind, I think. -- ChrisO (talk) 08:19, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

When considering what, Chris? :) Macai (talk) 08:24, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

When considering the hysterical response in some quarters to the e-mails, since it's becoming increasingly obvious that (perhaps excepting FOI issues) there really isn't much that's genuinely incriminating in them. See the section below. -- ChrisO (talk) 08:39, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

Phil Jones did also express intent to keep scientists out of the IPCC. Expressing intent to perform a large scale conspiracy happens to be a big deal, whether he succeeded or not. Macai (talk) 09:11, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

Folks, please, general discussions about the scandal rather than the article are off-topic. This page contains far too many comments to read as it is.Flegelpuss (talk) 09:14, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

FactCheck.org review of e-mails

The independent non-partisan FactCheck website has published a detailed analysis of the e-mails at http://www.factcheck.org/2009/12/climategate/ which looks rather useful. -- ChrisO (talk) 08:39, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

A reliable source published a detailed analysis of the e-mails at http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/jamesdelingpole/100017393/climategate-the-final-nail-in-the-coffin-of-anthropogenic-global-warming/ which looks rather useful. Macai (talk) 09:16, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

No, this link has already been discussed above and the source was found to be unreliable for our purposes. The link itself goes to an opinion/column by James Delingpole, who has been personally campaigning against climate change science for years. He's a denier with an axe to grind. Does anyone here actually understand what a reliable source means, and how we evaluate a source for reliability? Viriditas (talk) 09:21, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

So you're saying that Wikipedia's policies are wrong? Macai (talk) 09:22, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

No, I'm saying your interpretation of policies are wrong. Macai, you already brought this up in a previous discussion at 11:32, 11 December 2009 (UTC) and I quickly responded to it 12:00, 11 December and 12:42, 11 December. Is there a particular reason you are asking the same question again and again? This sounds very much like the behavior Drolz was engaging in when he repeatedly tried to argue for a POVFORK in thread after thread, again and again. It may help to review Wikipedia:Tendentious editing. Viriditas (talk) 09:30, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

Far from neutral, the Annenburg Public Policy Center is very left-wing, even if it is technically not affiliated with the Democratic Party. Quoting Heng along with Delingpole's analysis in the Telegraph may balance out.Flegelpuss (talk) 09:23, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

Please provide a good, neutral source for your claim so we can review it. Delingpole is a columnist who has been campaigning against climate change science for years. He's not neutral or reliable for our purposes. Viriditas (talk) 09:30, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

Happens to be my perspective as well. But let's so some formal reasoning for those of you who don't think the Telegraph article is valid:

1. Mainstream news organizations are welcome.
2. The U.K. Telegraph is a mainstream news organization.
3. Therefore, the U.K. Telegraph is welcome.

Any questions? Macai (talk) 09:26, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

Yes, it isn't the Telegraph that's doing the reporting, it's an opinion piece by James Delingpole, a climate change denier. It isn't neutral or authoritative for our purposes. You have to be able to evaluate a source before deciding if you can use it. Do you know how to do that? Viriditas (talk) 09:30, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

The same is true of the Annenburg report: it's written by a single person, Jess Heng.Flegelpuss (talk) 09:32, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

I think the domain name "telegraph.co.uk" kind of gives it away that this is, in fact, a publication by the U.K. Telegraph. Not to mention the fact that the article says that the author of the article is "right about everything", really clinching the deal that this is not only published, but officially endorsed by the U.K. Telegraph. Now that we've cleared that up, please address the following logic:

1. Mainstream news organizations are welcome.
2. The U.K. Telegraph is a mainstream news organization.
3. Therefore, the U.K. Telegraph is welcome. Macai (talk) 09:35, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

Delingpole is not a "news" source. This has already been explained to you. And he isn't neutral. This has also been explained to you. And, he's not an expert. Again, explained. Therefore, Delingpole fails evaluation and is not reliable for our purposes. Viriditas (talk) 09:40, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

Heng's "analysis" is very shoddy. He fails to mention most of the controversial quotes, including Jones' call on other scientists to delete emails in violation of UK's FOI Act. He fails to mention the "very artificial adjustments" in the code or any of the codes comments. He doesn't actually seem to show much familiarity with the content that has caused the most controversy, or else deliberately ignores it. It's pure partisan hackery.Flegelpuss (talk) 09:31, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

Heng uses sources, but Delingpole does not. Whose analysis is shoddy? Viriditas (talk) 09:39, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

(e/c) The fact-check.org article is interesting and should probably be included, I am not sure how well an M.A. in English prepares you to distinguish what is scientific right and scientific wrong, but I suppose her analysis is as good as any journalist's. jheiv (talk) 09:35, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

I'm curious, do Heng and Delingpole have the same or different level of expertise? Heng uses sources for her report. Do we see the same with Delingpole's blog entries? Viriditas (talk) 09:38, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

Reliable sources like the U.K. Telegraph don't need to cite sources - they are sources. But yes, it actually does. There are links littered around the Telegraph article. Macai (talk) 09:42, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

You don't get it. A source is not "automatically" reliable. You have to evaluate for reliable criteria and determine if it is appropriate for the topic. Since this topic deals with scientific issues, the bar for reliability is much higher. In other words, if we are going to analyze climate data or make claims requiring specialist knowledge, then we need to evaluate the source for those criteria. I hope this makes sense to you. Viriditas (talk) 09:46, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

Well, actually, according to Wikipedia's policies, mainstream sources are automatically reliable. Macai (talk) 09:51, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

There is simply no such thing. Reliability is not automatic for any topic. I hope this makes sense. Viriditas (talk)

Both Delingpole and Heng come from literary backgrounds with no formal scientific training. Both are very poor sources when it comes to interpreting the consequences of the information for climate science and the process of science.Flegelpuss (talk) 09:44, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

Nope. Her name is Jess Henig and "she received a B.A. in history of science from Smith College and her M.A. in English from the University of Maryland. While at Maryland, she taught digital literature and rhetorical writing. Prior to joining the Annenberg Public Policy Center in May 2007, she worked for the National Academies Press. She has also worked for the National Institutes of Health and as a freelance researcher and editor." I would say that her background and experience surpass that of Delingpole when it comes to this topic. Furthermore, her experience at the NIH shows that she has professional familiarity with the concept of "scientific integrity" which is essential to medicine. Viriditas (talk) 09:50, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

I wouldn't want to use any single source for an overall analysis of the emails. We already have in the article the widely published explanations of some of the principal scientists, and that should be adequate. --TS 09:48, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

Well, we should definitely also present any facts published by reliable sources, as well, facts. An example would be that CRU manipulated evidence, privately doubted that the earth is heating up, suppressed evidence, and attempted to squeeze dissenting scientists out of the peer review process. You know, so that we can maintain Wikipedia's NPOV. You being the one who recently said that we shouldn't distort the facts with weasel words. It's not an allegation, it's a fact, as per WP:RS. Macai (talk) 09:55, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

That's an opinion piece from a non-expert, climate change denier about climate change science, and it can't be used in this article. That has been explained to you already several times. There is nothing "reliable" about it for this topic. Viriditas (talk) 09:59, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

Actually, it's an article by a reliable source. Are you denying that the Telegraph is mainstream? Because that's all it needs to be to be reliable as per WP:RS. Macai (talk) 10:00, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

No, that's not even close. Please read and understand Wikipedia:Evaluating sources. An non-neutral, climate change denier opinion about climate science from a non-scientist is not reliable for our purposes. End of story. Viriditas (talk) 10:02, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

So WP:RS does not reflect Wikipedia's policy? Because I could have sworn it does. Also, WP:RS > WP:ES, since the former is an actual policy as opposed to the latter. Thanks for trying, though. Macai (talk) 10:03, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

RS is a guideline not a policy, and evaluating sources is an essay describing how we determine if a source is reliable or not. It is standard procedure for all research. If you don't know how to evaluate a source, then you can't tell if is reliable for a certain topic. You need to learn this in order to actually edit Wikipedia. Viriditas (talk) 10:08, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

Actually, evaluating sources isn't about how to determine if a source is reliable. Here's the summary:

This page in a nutshell: When using primary sources, editors should stick to describing what the sources say. Any interpretive claims, analyses, or synthetic claims require a secondary source.

Your article doesn't even support your argument, whereas Wikipedia's standard on reliable sources, on the other hand, does happen to directly support mine. Macai (talk) 10:13, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

It not only supports my argument, it repeats it word for word. Please read and understand it. Better yet, read the sources that it is based upon. Without it, you cannot determine what is reliable and what is not. This is the first step in writing Wikipedia articles. Unless you truly understand how this is done, you will be running in circles chasing your own tail. Viriditas (talk) 10:15, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

Explanations that one non-expert (Henig) is reliable but another (Delingpole) is not, because Delingpole is one of those evil "climate change deniers", no longer how often they may have been repeated, still make no sense.Flegelpuss (talk) 10:06, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

Have you shown that Henig is unreliable or non-neutral? Please do so. Can you show that she promotes climate change science beyond that of the consensus opinion on the subject? Henig uses sources, unlike Delingpole, so Delingpole doesn't even make the grade. Viriditas (talk) 10:10, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

Actually, we have. She dismissed the fact that Phil Jones expressed intent to exclude scientists from the IPCC by saying that the people he expressed the intent to exclude were included, as if that made the expression of intent less bad. So no, she's kind of biased - oh wait - that's only an issue when Delingpole does it. Anyway, I'm out for the night. See you. Macai (talk) 10:15, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

I don't see that italicized quote anywhere in the article. You will need to actually stick to what she says and explain directly how it is unreliable. Viriditas (talk) 10:20, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

Macai, that article is a blog article by James Delingpole, it is not a Telegraph article and was not subject to the Telegraph's normal editorial process. It's a self-published source, not a reliable source for the information it contains. Delingpole is a resident blogger at the Telegraph, which is why it appears on telegraph.co.uk. Simonmar (talk) 10:33, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

"Does anyone here actually understand what a reliable source means, and how we evaluate a source for reliability?" Having participated in numerous discussions about reliable sources on the Reliable sources noticeboard, the issue of whether a source is biased it completely irrelevant. Lots of sources are biased. That doesn't affect it's reliability in the slightest. What matters is whether the source has a reputation for accuracy and fact-checking. Feel free to take up the issue at the reliable sources talk page or the Reliable sources noticeboard and they'll tell you the exact same thing. As far as this particular source goes, [58], it appears to be an opinion piece which is only reliable for the opinions of its author. WP:UNDUE applies. However, if we can find evidence that this blog is subject to the full editorial control of its publisher, then it's acceptable as a reliable source for statements of fact. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 13:58, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

McIntyre's analysis of the "trick...to hide the decline"

Steven McIntyre is a scientist who has published in the peer-reviewed climate literature, and as the e-mails indicate is held in high esteem (or at least fear) by Jones, Mann, and company. His article IPCC and the "trick" is an in-depth analysis of the science and scientific process behind the most notorious email and a number of related emails in the leaked archive. It's a much better source than either Henig or Delingpole, although its an analysis of just one of the important issues raised by the leaked documents. ClimateAudit is a highly regarded, award-winning scientific forum in blog form, with a substantially more detailed and higher-quality discussion than the pop blog RealClimate.Flegelpuss (talk) 10:21, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

Is Steven McIntyre a climatologist? Viriditas (talk) 10:22, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

Stephen McIntyre's sole qualifications for this chosen role are a BSc in mathematics from the University of Toronto and about 30 years at company officer level in the mineral exploration business. He also has a degree in PPE from Oxford. Oh, and he runs a blog. He has developed a popular fan following for his vitriolic attacks on the work of qualified, published, peer-reviewed climate scientists. His fans frequently mistake him for a scientist. --TS 11:17, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

He's as much of a scientist as Al Gore is.--CurtisSwain (talk) 12:09, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

Al Gore invented the internet! :) Let's play devil's advocate: Isn't a mathematician qualified to comment on a mathematical model? Viriditas (talk) 12:10, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

If we're going to lower our standards to the point that a BSc in mathematics qualifies one to pose as an expert in mathematics, a lot of Wikipedians would be able to start blogs and have their opinions on climate models copied by their friends and fans into Wikipedia. --TS 12:25, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

Devil's advocate: But McIntyre is not only a mathematician, but a notable climate skeptic. And along with Ross McKitrick, McIntyre has successfully challenged the evidence for anthropogenic global warming used by the IPCC. How can you eliminate McIntyre's voice from this article? Viriditas (talk) 12:42, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

Saturday noon free word here, eh? :) Let me ask a stupid question: what model has M criticised? And with the little knowledge I have about his doings, I'd call him an analyst. --J. Sketter (talk) 14:12, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

"Isn't a mathematician qualified to comment on a mathematical model?". It depends. Has McIntyre's work in the relevant field been published by a third-party, reliable source? A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 14:17, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

Change requested to lead

Those accused issued prompt refutations, and the CRU scientists have accused the sceptics of selectively quoting words and phrases out of context in an attempt to sabotage the Copenhagen global climate summit of December 2009,[10] and categorize the entire incident as a smear campaign.

This doesn't read very well. I suggest the following change:

CRU scientists issued prompt refutations and described the incident as a smear campaign, accusing the sceptics of selectively quoting words and phrases out of context in an attempt to sabotage the Copenhagen global climate summit.

Or something along those lines. Viriditas (talk) 13:13, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

Actually, in this particular case, we shouldn't be using the word "sceptic". It's been pointed out several times that we shouldn't be lumping legitimate scientists and journalists in with the AGW skeptics. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 14:01, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

Mission Statement for the Article

What is the article about? Why is the underlying topic significant? There seem to be several possible answers to that (not necesarily mutually excusive):

1. This is the event that cracked open the global criminal climate hoax conspiracy
2. This dug up information that completely discredits all climatology research
3. This exposed information that calls into question the methods used and the professionalism of the CRU
4. This exposed information that calls into question the validity of some climatology data
5. A criminal security breach was committed upon CRU
6. The fact that an unknown person was able to hack into CRU is of grave concern for security of scientific study and data
7. An unknown person leaked information in an attempt to discredit climatologists and influence Copenhgen
8. An unknown person Falsified information in an attempt to discredit climatologists and influence Copenhgen
9. This is another event in a pattern of criminal harassment of climatologists
10. This was the event that eventually led to a wave of violence and terrorism against climatologists

I think we would benefit by sharing our views of what elements are important and why. If we can come to consensus on this, I think we can more easily discuss what the proper scope and structure of the article should be. MarkNau (talk) 13:38, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

My view: 3+4 are the CORE matter. 5 is a part of the story but of clearly SECONDARY importance. 7 is a big part of the story, but we have no hard facts on it. Everything else is either unfounded, outright crazy, or off-topic and relatively unimportant side issuesMarkNau (talk) 13:38, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

I have to disagree with you on this one, Mark. It's notable because numerous reliable sources have found it notable. Nothing more; nothing less. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 14:07, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

We may actually agree. Which ASPECTS of the story have the reliable sources found to be notable? In other words, what is the scope of "it," as defined by how reliable sources have treated the incident? MarkNau (talk) 14:13, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

Ah, I see that as a different question. Notability applies to articles as a whole, whereas weight applies to content within an article. To answer this question, we're supposed to focus on what reliable sources have focused on. As far as your list goes, I would say that they're focusing on #3 and #7. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 14:22, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

The Truth does NOT matter

As much as I hate to have a meta-discussion about the discussion, I keep hearing arguments from both sides about the Truth. I cannot emphasize this enough, the Truth does not matter. The Truth is a matter of opinion and like a@@holes, everyone has one. In an attempt to end the endless arguments about the Truth, years ago Wikipedia set up the rules to avoid this endless bickering. All that matters is what reliable sources say about the topic. If reliable sources say that climate change is real and primarily caused by mankind, then Wikipedia says climate change is real and primarily caused by mankind. If reliable sources say that AGW is the greatest scientific hoax since Piltdown man, then we say that AGW is the greatest scientific hoax since Piltdown man. We are not supposed to engage in any dispute. We are supposed to simply report back what reliable sources say about a topic. And yes, if reliable sources say the Earth is flat, then we say the Earth is flat. Wikipedia is not to be used as a forum for cutting edge research or to promote an agenda. Like it or not, we must defer to reliable sources, not our own personal opinions about the topic. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 14:59, 12 December 2009 (UTC)