Talk:Climatic Research Unit email controversy

Add Richard A. Muller article Can a group of scientists in California end the war on climate change?

Add Can a group of scientists in California end the war on climate change? The Berkeley Earth project say they are about to reveal the definitive truth about global warming by Ian Sample 27.February.2011 ... Richard A. Muller of the Berkeley Earth project (Berkeley Earth Surface Temperature) is convinced his approach will lead to a better assessment of how much the world is warming. 99.19.43.74 (talk) 00:45, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

Related update May 25, 2011 in Scientific American and reprinted "I Stick to Science": Why Richard A. Muller wouldn't tell House climate skeptics what they wanted to hear. In the article are reference to skeptics Anthony Watts (blogger) (of Watts Up With That?) and Stephen McIntyre (of the Climate Audit), also James Hansen (of the Goddard Institute for Space Studies), the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) and Ralph M. Hall (Chairman of the United States House Committee on Science, Space and Technology). 99.19.43.74 (talk) 00:52, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

No possible relevance to this article, even if the editorials were accurate. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 02:35, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

Please avoid extremist wording such as "no possible" (reference Paul Collier's The Plundered Planet), see excerpt:

Then there is the fiasco of 2009 that saw roughly 1,000 emails from a server at the University of East Anglia's Climatic Research Unit (CRU) find their way on to the internet. The fuss over the messages, inevitably dubbed Climategate, gave Muller's nascent project added impetus. Climate sceptics had already attacked James Hansen, head of the NASA group, for making political statements on climate change while maintaining his role as an objective scientist. The Climategate emails fuelled their protests. "With CRU's credibility undergoing a severe test, it was all the more important to have a new team jump in, do the analysis fresh and address all of the legitimate issues raised by sceptics," says Muller.

99.19.43.74 (talk) 03:00, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

I agree with Arthur Rubin. The present article is about a specific battle that was fought in the war against science. The idea that the war can be ended by removing any of the remaining scientific doubts is at best naïve, as it completely ignores the motivations of this war and the techniques used in it. The similar war against science related to the smoking / lung cancer connection also did not end when the remaining scientific doubts were removed. It ended when spreading doubt about the science was no longer effective in preventing action by politicians. In any case, your article is related to the war, not to the battle. Hans Adler 04:39, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

Anyone who thinks this is about a "war against science" is probably incapable of NPOV editing 86.182.195.34 (talk) 20:03, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

How does knowledge of a subject make one incapable of NPOV editing? The war tobacco industry vs. science is very well documented in scholarly literature such as this due to the fact that the tobacco industry had to release a lot of formerly secret strategy documents. They knew they were wrong, and they knew they were going to lose. They just wanted to postpone anti-smoking laws as long as possible to maximise their profit.

The strategies applied to postpone effective action against global warming were very much the same initially, although of course they have since been refined further. Initially some of the same bogus research institutes such as The Heartland Institute were engaged in both. See also the all-round 'expert' Fred Singer. This second war has also been documented in some scholarly sources, although there are no smoking guns yet as no internal documents were released due to legal discovery. Hans Adler 22:48, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

For some further reading, see Merchants of Doubt, Eric Pooley's "The Climate War" (see Politics of global warming (United States)), Requiem for a Species, and watch The Age of Stupid, for starters ... 99.181.129.104 (talk) 04:43, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

"no smoking guns yet"? The whole point about these emails is that they suggested distortion of peer review processes both in journals and IPCC reports, hiding data which might cast doubt on the relationship between tree rings and temperature, and refusal to provide data to those seeking to understand and replicate analyses with attempts to undermine environmental Freedom of Information requests by deleting correspondence. 86.182.195.34 (talk) 12:26, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

Yup, numerous reliable sources conclude no smoking guns, the whole point about the emails is that they've been quote-mined to suggest the misdemeanours you list. Misuse of private correspondence by those attacking science is a common theme. . . dave souza, talk 07:24, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

This might be of interest: The Republican War on Science. 99.181.141.251 (talk) 07:34, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

Why? Does the book mention climategate? — Arthur Rubin (talk) 16:45, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

It would appear a response to IP user 86.182.195.34. 99.190.81.244 (talk) 04:22, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

This German language wp page may be of interest Mr. Rubin ---> de:Benutzer:Dudenfreund/Dudenfreund’s Law seen on Talk:350.org/Archive_3. 99.190.81.244 (talk) 05:21, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

I agree that Arthur Rubin's use of the phrase "No possible relevance" was inappropriate too strong. However, having read the article, the reference to the "Climategate" issue is tangential; partially explains some aspects of Muller's impetus, but doesn't shed any light on the article in any useful way. I see no section on fallout (other than political fallout) but even if there were, this is too minor a connection to deserve mention.--SPhilbrickT 16:39, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

To be fair to Arthur, the above IP has been spamming that and similar links about Dr. Muller all over wikipedia climatespace. It's exasperating to explain over and over why the linked article isn't relevant enough for a given article when it's been simultaneously suggested at four different articles.... at best (not pun intended) it's really only relevant in Dr. Muller's own article... Sailsbystars (talk) 20:04, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

Globalize media coverage

The media coverage section has quotes and material attributed to

1. New York Times
2. Newsweek
3. The European practice on energy, environment and climate change of communications firm Burson-Marsteller
4. Boston Herald
5. Wall Street Journal
6. The Atlantic
7. BBC
8. The Economist
9. The Columbia Journalism Review
10. CNN

So out of ten sources, we have one European and two from the UK. The other six seven are from the USA. This was not an American incident or an American controversy; climate research has worldwide implications. The viewpoints presented by the article should represent this. --Nigelj (talk) 21:27, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

Nigel: that's a good point, one that I'd noticed myself, but with the recent unpleasantness... UK seems under-represented, US over.

When we prune, I'd suggest dropping the Boston Herald bit I just restored -- other sources already say much the same. Cheers, Pete Tillman (talk) 22:14, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

Incidentally, is there any partic. reason we call this section "Media reception", rather than the more usual "Media reaction" or Media coverage"? The latter would at least match our See also hatnote. --Pete Tillman (talk) 22:18, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

ICO ruling

Not that I am planning to get involved at this page again at the moment, but the ICO ruling seems to bear on this subject directly. Alex Harvey (talk) 11:32, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

I can't see what it has to do with the hacking. Was the data in question part of the stolen material? --TS 12:27, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

Only indirectly related, I'm afraid. ICO required them to release some data, but it's not apparently related to the leaked material. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 00:51, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

Fred Pearce writes, "The ruling also marks a victory for critics of the UEA and its Climatic Research Unit in the "climategate" affair. It comes at the end of a two-year rearguard action by UEA climate scientists to prevent publication of their "crown jewels", an archive of world temperature records collected jointly with the Met Office." [6]. Best, Alex Harvey (talk) 08:26, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

Interesting reading, good reporting (as usual) by Fred Pearce. This article will be an important part of our long-delayed FOI section, the real heart (and apparent cause) of the Climategate affair.

Note a second RS story at Washington Post -- which has some obvious errors, however. Cheers, Pete Tillman (talk) 18:07, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

Good coverage on Nature News Blog. Note that this has nothing to do with the CRU e-mails, but is related to the coordinated FOI DDOS campaign that preceded the e-mail data theft. It appears from some of the more sensationalist coverage linked above that, since there was nothing much in the stolen e-mails, some still hope to bring down the whole of climate science by finding something amiss in this temperature data. --Nigelj (talk) 19:48, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

Nigel, Thanks for the Nature bit, which is helpful. But IB your POV is showing, rather flagrantly.... <G> Cheers, Pete Tillman (talk) 20:29, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

Pots and kettles? --Stephan Schulz (talk) 23:56, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

"We are being completely knocked apart in the press"

[WP:BLP violations removed; please note that the onus is on the person restoring content that has been challenged to demonstrate that it is BLP-compliant, something that was not done when this was restored] [unsigned note added by Guettarda, 07:21, 18 July 2011]

• Note: see this diff for the material G. objects to. I think he's being silly, and the thread won't make any sense to third-parties without this. --Pete Tillman (talk) 23:22, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

For the article, once it settles down a bit. Cheers, Pete Tillman (talk) 18:07, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

Looks like a combination of hearsay from a dubious character, and synthesis by Pete: the Graun article doesn't seem to make any mention of the CRU controversy. No doubt Pete will find blogs making a great deal of it, but this looks like a coatrack here. Much better sourcing needed for any addition to the article, and the arrest looks completely irrelevant. . dave souza, talk 18:20, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

RS story on Wallis & CG/UEA: Ex-News of the World man advised UEA over ‘climategate’, EDP-24, Norfolk July 16, 2011

OK, so add it to the Neil Wallis article, where it might, just possibly, be relevant. But I have warned you repeatedly about using Wikipedia to smear people you disagree with. Guettarda (talk) 20:00, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

Guetterda, please hold the wild accusations. Fixed a broken ref, cited the rest. --Pete Tillman (talk) 22:00, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

"Wild accusations"? The material you added was totally unsourced. You had three sources, none of which even vaguely supported your claims. And saying that there was a broken link in the material I removed is utterly false. You have a long history of engaging in unsourced smears against living people here. And please stop misspelling my user name. Just stop it with the BLP violations, stop it with the false accusations and lay off the rudeness. Guettarda (talk) 14:21, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

And, by the way, it's still a dodgy source. The source it's taken from may be reliable enough to use as a source for Wallis' words, but an interview with someone who has been charged with a crime (and is thus, by definition, a dodgy source for factual information) is not good enough for a BLP. We have higher standards for accusations against living people, not lower ones. Guettarda (talk) 14:38, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

This still looks like a smear, based on nothing but a local paper's interest in trying to find some reference to its area in a national scandal. There needs to be evidence that this is significant to the controversy as a whole: uni hires pr agency after hacking seems to about the sum of it, and that's hardly very significant news. . . dave souza, talk 22:33, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

It seems to be pretty well established that UEA did in fact use Neil Wallis as a PR consultant, and there is nothing controversial about adding that fact to the article, perhaps as part of the Responses/University of East Anglia section. There is nothing unusual or sinister about a large organisation obtaining PR help, and it's in no sense a smear to say that they did, or to name the individual they used. Obviously we shouldn't use this article to speculate about the allegations that are flying around his other activities. Jonathan A Jones (talk) 14:17, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

Probably not controversial in any way or form - the question is.... as always .... is it relevant? Or is this just a news-bite that gets interest because of another not related controversy. Wallis is (imho) not interesting here, but probably is elsewhere. Considering all the more relevant stuff that can't make the threshold of relevance, this one doesn't even merit interest (again imho). --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 16:12, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

(e/c) Are we really planning on adding coverage of every piece of work all the people involved in the News of the World scandal ever did? And dotting all over Wikipedia in the articles about the other organisations they worked for? It sounds like a massive attempt at original synthesis to me. The statement that this man once did did some PR work for UEA, and is now involved in the NOTW story, did not (as far as we know from the sources) affect either the causes or the outcomes of the UEA hacking controversy. I wonder if the journalists trying to associate these two stories here, are going through all the items on the CV of every arrested NOTW worker with the same enthusiasm? I think it's an attempt at some kind of guilt-by-association smear, myself. Let some RS show some actual outcome or result of the association before it is notable enough to include, I think. --Nigelj (talk) 16:15, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

As is usual with breaking news, we should wait for details and analyses to appear in RS's before adding this to the article, I think.

Still, it's an interesting development, no? Particularly as the Outside Organisation is apparently known for spreading disinformation, and conducting "covert ops." One wonders why UEA would hire such a group. I would imagine that FOIA requests will follow. Best, Pete Tillman (talk) 17:47, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

"Still, it's an interesting development, no?" - certainly not - unless we're substituting for a discussion forum. You are very much speculating and projecting personal POV - I suggest that you keep this at home - or on the various blogs that you frequent :) --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 23:22, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

Ah, Pete, your smear is showing. Speculation and an attempt to link the uni with unsavoury characters such as Cameron simply shows that you're trying to spread disinformation. The blunt and not terribly significant fact is that they engaged a PR firm after being chastised in the press for poor PR. . . dave souza, talk 18:33, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

[outdent] Dave, I strongly object to your accusation that I am "smearing" CRU. OO's reputation -- and staff (some now arrested) -- are what they are. Anyway, let's wait to see what develops, eh? I promise not to call it "Outside-gate" ;-] Cheers, Pete Tillman (talk) 19:18, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

Anyway, let's wait to see what develops, eh? Excellent idea! Eventually, we will probably want to include some mention of this under Section 3.1. There is no rush to do this, but on the contrary, every indication we should wait for things to settle out. Certainly it's noteworthy that the UEA hired a PR man. Care must be taken not to add more than due weight to it.

Just a reminder: WP reflects what the mainstream media reports. This by the hometown paper would be an appropriate RS, but I think we should wait at least a week to insert it. One sentence noting the engagement of a PR professional with a hyperlink to Neil Wallis would suffice. Meanwhile, a flurry of editing at the Wallis page would be expected and acceptable. His arrest has nothing to do with the CRU, at least not as far as anyone knows at present. Yopienso (talk) 23:02, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

I think you've answered your own point there, Yopienso. His arrest has nothing to do with the CRU. What else makes associating the two suddenly notable? Unless we have RSs explicitly stating the influence whatever got Neil Wallis arrested had on the CRU e-mail controversy, we have nothing to say here. --Nigelj (talk) 09:11, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

@Yopienso yes, we reflect what the media reports, but not blindly nor completely, or we'd simply be a mirror site. We select what to include, using judgement. --SPhilbrickT 14:38, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

@Nigel and Sphilbrick: Maybe you read too quickly what I wrote.

Certainly it's noteworthy that the UEA hired a PR man. Care must be taken not to add more than due weight to it. . . One sentence noting the engagement of a PR professional with a hyperlink to Neil Wallis would suffice.

I do not think any mention of Wallis's arrest belongs in this article. I do think the fact that he was hired to help remedy the UAE's PR problem should be briefly mentioned. Yopienso (talk) 19:59, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

Agreed. Most of the arguments here seem to be against a quite different proposal, which it's not clear to me that anyone is actually making. We already comment on UEA's PR problems, and the appointment of PR professionals are obviously relevant in this context. Jonathan A Jones (talk) 20:20, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

We don't mention Wallis at the moment, and never have in the past. What makes him notable enough to mention now? Ahh, the fact that he's been arrested. That's the synthetic smear that I don't like - even if, as of this proposal, we expect people to click his link (Easter-egg style) to make the connection in their own heads. It's a step along the way to explicit synthesis, it's unnecessary and it's totally unsupported by RSs. --Nigelj (talk) 21:05, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

Simple solution: Don't name Wallis, but Outside Organization. Or don't even name them, just note something along this line: "Realizing there was a public image and communications problem, the University hired a public relations professional." Sourced then to the Norfolk paper or the Welwyn Hatfield Times. The reason we haven't mentioned this before is because we didn't know it. Anyone can see that the hiring of a PR firm is part of the response from UEA. I repeat that undue weight should not be given this bit of information. Yopienso (talk) 22:28, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

Not a smear Tillman? You throw up the most tenuous of connections here, but edit war to remove very reliably sourced criticism from articles about "skeptics". Your agenda-driven editing is incredibly transparent and has stepped into the real of disruption. Guettarda (talk) 14:25, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

Doesn't deserve inclusion in the article at this time. The arrest is titillating, but no identified relationship to CRU. If some evidence turns up that Outside spread information, then it would be relevant, but at the moment, that isn't close to being established.--SPhilbrickT 14:35, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

• As the one who brought this up, I'd still recommend holding off a bit longer, to let more details emerge. Though Guettarda's idea of adding a bit to Neil Wallis now, seems appropriate. Cheers, Pete Tillman (talk) 23:22, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

Removal of tags

I'm not sure the specific neutrality tag in the lede is necessary, as the article has an overall neutrality tag. The rest of the removals are due to Virditas's unique interpretation of the sourced material in the text, and should not be done without a clear consensus. Alternatively, the offending statements should be removed. There was no consensus that V's interpretation was clear or warranted. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 20:02, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

Agree with Arthur. Article still needs work! -- and has the problems mentioned above, in Talk. Note that mention of editors names in subheads is discouraged. Thanks, Pete Tillman (talk) 20:56, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

Arthur Rubin and Tillman appear to both misunderstand the relevant policies and guidelines and the use of maintenance tags. I do not see any justification for the current use of tags that Tillman added back into the article[7] and furthermore, I expect an explanation here, in this section, explaining why Tillman added them back. What I see here is a misuse of the maintenance tag system in order to hold the article hostage to a minority, fringe POV that is not supported by the mainstream sources. In other words, the so-called "dispute" that Arthur Rubin and Tillman claim they see, does not in fact exist. This continuing misuse of maintenance tags to push a POV is not acceptable practice and I will remove them again in 24 hours if an adequate explanation for their use is not offered. Viriditas (talk) 21:29, 19 July 2011 (UTC)