Talk:False accusation of rape

Bearian (talk) 17:47, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

Repercussions

It would be wise to include mention of the disparity between repercussions for false rape accusations and for being charged falsely of rape, and that most false rape accusations today are not even prosecuted.Jayhammers (talk) 07:42, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

I think that would violate WP:UNDUE. Bearian (talk) 17:45, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

why would it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.242.111.108 (talk) 12:50, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

Merge?

This is basically a list of research papers about false allegations of rape. These may be useful as references but I don't think they constitute an article. I suggest a merger with Rape. Biscuittin (talk) 17:26, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

I don't know - I'd say this is a useful article on a notable topic (or subtopic). Unfortunately it has to consist of, essentially, a list of studies, as any attempt by us to draw a wider conclusion would violate the rule against original synthesis. Robofish (talk) 20:26, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

Against merge. Article should be improved, but topic distinct from rape and likely to weigh down that page unnecessarily Vartanza (talk) 11:08, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

This is an important topic in of itsself and should not be merged. Tomtac (talk) 04:29, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

Agree with Tomtac. It's good encyclopedic detail, but would be excessive to dump it all into Rape. Also, 'Rape' isn't currently tagged (as http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:Merging#Proposing_a_merger says it should have been.) Since it isn't (didn't check to see if it once was), and we have 4:1 !votes against, after a year, I'm going to go ahead and remove the tag from this article.--W☯W ^t/c 05:18, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Merge is completely inappropriate here, this is a hugely important topic. The article simply needs to be expanded and wikified.--Shakehandsman (talk) 05:14, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

Problematic section

The article says: "A dely reported examples of false accusations of rape include those of Mabel Hallam, Victoria Price and Ruby Bates, Tawana Brawley, Crystal Gail Mangum and Danmell Ndonye." The source mentions Danmell Ndonye as an example of false rape accusations and none of the other women. I removed the other names. TheLuca (talk) 23:40, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

US-centrism

I think this page is totally US-centric and needs to be more internationally based. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fountofwisdomhaha (talk • contribs) 13:30, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

~Fount, if you have information, then add it. I doubt anybody would object to that. --Paragoalie (talk) 14:09, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

Broken Source Links

The links for sources 4 (fbi.gov, Crime Index Offenses Reported 1996) and 11 (Harvard Women's Law Journal (now Harvard Journal of Law & Gender) have become broken. 174.22.92.171 (talk) 00:57, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

FBI rape statistics

The FBI rape statistics are shown, and then it is said: 'and as Bruce Gross of the Forensic Examiner explains' and goes on to say that he believes the statistics are misleading. This implies that his opinion is correct. I don't believe you should throw out anything he says you should, but that's just my opinion. His opinion is also just that, and it should be treated as such. The FBI doesn't believe its statistics should be thrown out (or the semantics of the meanings of the words and phrases unfounded and false accusation. Or, if it does, you haven't shown that to be the case. I'm saying that Bruce Gross' opinion should not be treated as any sort of fact. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.242.111.108 (talk) 12:01, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

Rewrite necessary

I have studied this article with some effort and think that the complete article is misleading and is strongly shifted to a "false accusation of rape are rare" POV.

The main problem of the article is, that it carelessly mixes two completely different topics. Cases where police suspects that the accusation of rape was false (and would probably persecute the alleged victim) and cases where the accusation of rape was false. While the former can be easily evaluated the latter can be only assumed. This fact is also mentioned in the article by the citation "As a scientific matter, the frequency of false rape complaints to police or other legal authorities remains unknown.", but no consequences are drawn.

The first chapter creates the impression, that there are studies that show everything (from 1.5% to 90%), but there is some common agreement that the real number is somewhere between 2% and 8%, even if the real number cannot be probably determined. However the 2-8% agreement figure is just the personal opinion of Ms. DiCanio. Her statement, while not unfounded, must not be cited in the same gasp as the 1.5% to 90% paper.

In the next two chapters we see an evaluation of FBI and British Home Office statistics. Both present a number of 8% (although in the later source the real number is 9%). And both numbers are accompanied by a citation, that presumes the real number is even lower. This creates the impression, that the 2-8% figure perfectly fits.

If you actually read the sources however, you get a different picture. Both articles criticize that only a small number of less than 10% of accusations make it to a conviction. There is a number of reasons for that. One of the reasons is, that in 8-9% of the cases the police officially believes that the accusations are false (BHO) or unfounded (FBI). And in this 8-9% the police is not always right, so the real number is even lower, according to the articles.

In reality however more cases are potentially false accusations. The vast majority of cases (more than 80%) doesn't result in a conviction because the accusation is either withdrawn or there is not enough evidence. In both cases at least a part may be false accusations, but are not classified by the police as such (there are a lot of possible reasons for that). This very important fact is concealed in the Wikipedia article.

The next chapter cites an Australian study where the same problem arises again. Only the cases, where the false accusations are charged, are concidered.

The following chapter explains the Kanin's report. This is the only individual study in the article, that seems to propose a higher number than the 8% of Ms. DiCanio. However this chapter has a three times as long criticism part as the study description. In addition the criticism ends with a counter study resulting in a convenient 5.9% figure. While this chapter is totally fine on its own, in the context of the article it creates the following impression: A lot of studies suggest there are less than 8% accusation rates, but then there is Kanin suggesting that the number is 41%. Fortunately this is not true and the real number is 5.9%.

Then comes the Rumney chapter, which is totally fine, concluded with the last chapter that is somewhat unrelated.

I have written all of this together, because I am planning to rewrite the article. Before I do so however, I want to present others with the possibility of giving their opinions on my thoughts. I also would appreciate some help as I do not possess the Rumney paper, which seems to be the very important, and I am not a native speaker.

--Naaram (talk) 16:18, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

I suggest that you do not turn this article into a POV piece as to fit your own agenda that "false accusations of rape are very common", because it will not work. Given what you've written above, it's very clear that you have a very strong opinion on this matter, and that you're planning to slant this article as to fit your own views. This article is perfectly fine. Official statistics from authorities (FBI, Home Office and Victoria) suggest very small numbers, and it's these statistics that should be given the most prominence, before anything else. The number of 8% from the Home Office has been subject to major criticism, about many of these rape accusations being classified as false in violation of the official process for establishing a false allegation, based simply on the opinion of the police; similarly, the FBI number of 8% 'unfounded' rape accusations (not the same as false) has also been subject to the same criticism as 'unfounded' is often merely the opinion of the police, with few evidence and based on prejudice. This criticism is perfectly sourced, and, as such, it belongs in the article, whether you like it or not. The most often figure cited by sexual violence experts is 2%. There is very few research which shows more than 10%. Kanin's report has been also harshly criticized, for 2 major problems: 1. its methodology, 2. the very high number found, which contradicts most reliable research. This is in the article, and will stay, regardless of how much it appears to upset you. The 'fact' that "in reality", as put it, many more accusations are false, but are not classified as such, is nothing more than your personal opinion, pure speculation, and WP:OR."This very important fact is concealed in the Wikipedia article." I'm sorry but this is not a "fact", this is just your opinion and speculation. Situations where an accusation is withdrawn or where there is not enough evidence do not equate with false accusations (as you'd like to suggest in the article). Accusations may be withdrawn for very many reasons (eg, threats&pressure from the accused, bribe from the accused, pressure from the family and/or friends-as to avoid public 'shame' and 'scandal', the way the police is treating the victim, feeling emotionally exhausted and that there is no chance to get justice, and many other more reasons). Speculation on your part, that these accusations are withdrawn because they were false, doesn't belong in this article. Not enough evidence to pursue a case has nothing to do with false accusation, it is simply a case where police does not posses sufficient prove that a rape occurred (which is very common in rape cases given the nature of the crime). How does this suggest in any way that the victim is lying? In other words, do not attempt to turn this article into a piece of opinion to advance your own views on the matter, because it won't work you will get reverted. If you believe that "most accusations of rape are false", as it appears you do, than find another way to try to convince people about it, but don't try to use this article for this. Skydeepblue (talk) 18:36, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

First I like to thank you for your opinion. Fortunately you are wrong, as I do not have a " "false accusations of rape are very common" POV. As you seem to be a regular committer to the article, in fact I do hope, that you can help me. To tell the truth, I do dislike your threats of reverting some changes, before the changes were actually made.

I have used the sloppy argumentation style to emphasize on the impression that the article gives on the reader and now I have to admit that this might be inappropriate considering the topic.

I am german. I have looked on this article after it was cited in a German blog comment, telling that 3% of rape accusations are false. Someone else then cited the German paper http://www.polizei.bayern.de/content/4/3/7/vergewaltigung_und_sexuelle_n_tigung_in_bayern_bpfi.pdf hosted by the police that deals with statistical analysis of rape in Bavaria.

In this paper the numbers are basically the same (7.4% of cases ended in a criminal charge against the presumed victim by the police, and about one third of them is convicted). But then there is lots of text. About 100 pages are dealing with false accusations only. An interesting graph can be found on page 161, where 70 police case officer, that investigate sexual cases only, were asked on there opinion of how many accusations are false. As you can see 81% think it is more than 10%, 63% think it is more than 20% and so on. According to the following pages this doesn't depend on the sex of the police officer.

On page 164 we see, that in the opinion of the associated case officer, 36.5% of all cases are likely to be false accusations and 27.1% are more likely to be false accusation than not. While this data doesn't represent reality and is heavily biased (as is Kanin, which is basically the same, besides that the authors do not draw any conclusions based on the numbers), I do have enough trust in German police to assume, that police officers will not say such numbers, if the real rate of false accusation would be 3%.

The different numbers come from the fact, that the police can only file a criminal charge for false accusation if there is some evidence to support that. For me it is obvious that at least in some of the other cases the accusation are false, and there is not enough evidence. But the extent of this is unknown to me.

Now I will tell you my opinion. Despite your allegation, I do not believe that the real numbers are that high. We have a 2-3% conviction rate for false accusation. And then we have some more cases (8% minus 2-3%), where there is some evidence, but it is not enough for conviction. And then we have some extra cases where in the personal opinion of the police officer the accusation is likely to be false (but which is heavily biased). The is no scientific way to estimate the real number based on this information. But in my opinion it is for sure higher than 3%. It may be 5%, or 10% or 20%, I don't know. But IMHO it is for sure more than 3%. I really hope you can follow my argumentation.

One thing I want to especially criticize is Ms. DiCanio with the 2-8% agreement citation. The figure for me is rather unprofessional as the conviction rate is already more than 2%. And because of how legal systems work today, the prevalence of an offense is always (and often much) higher than the conviction rate. Just for comparison, the prevalence of rape itself is for sure dozens of times higher than the conviction rate. So while there probably is such an agreement, the 2% at the lower end has no meaning.

The last two chapters present the basic plan for changing the first chapter of the article. First we need some numbers on convictions for false accusations, then we present some other numbers and then we say that it is impossible to determine the real number of. The 2-8% agreement oppinion is moved near the end of the article or is removed. About the 1.5% to 90% I am not sure, because it creates the impression of more controversy that there is.

Before I do change something however I hope, that I can find some time during the next two weeks to find some more research on this topic. I am somewhat unhappy about the FBI, BHO and Australian numbers, because the focus of the underlying article is not determining the rate of false accusations. I think more information can be found Rumney paper which I hope to get somehow.

--Naaram (talk) 13:55, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

The see also section that contained feminism should not have been deleted, since this is what all feminist of all "different groups" are in reality. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.169.240.71 (talk) 10:44, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

POV-motivated removal of text

ZHurlihee, I know you believe that women lie about rape all the time, but isn't it better to educate yourself rather than trying to make Wikipedia conform to your beliefs? You removed a rather important caveat from the authors of the Home Office study which noted that false accusations were conflated with retractions. You removed a statement from a state Attorney General's office noting that unfounded and false are not the same and a quote from the official journal of the American College of Forensic Examiners explaining that "unfounded" reports aren't always as unfounded as all that, which are pretty damn important if you're going to put in a statistic on unfounded reports. You removed criticism from the pre-eminent sexual assault researcher because you don't like the venue that published it (the American Prosecutors Research Institute). (Because really, someone who opposes violence against women can't be a reliable source. We should only accept research from people who support violence against women, right?) You removed a study that found a low number of false reports. Stop pushing your agenda. Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 18:48, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

The quotations were selectively culled from reports to place an undue emphasis on the material not present in the source and this constitutes a breach of WP:SYNTH. The Criticism of Kanin’s study is three times as long as our coverage of the study itself and that’s a serious wp:weight issue. If the study is that notable and if David Lisak’s criticisms are that noteworthy, then you should have no problem coming up with multiple reliable sources to that effect and no. one article on an advocacy website doesn’t cut it. Either work with me to rectify these issues, or I will be forced to tag this article for both its factual accuracy as well as its NPOV. ZHurlihee (talk) 19:39, 12 July 2011 (UTC)