Talk:Fred Singer

Latest edits

I've reverted the latest changes - the reason for this is:

• This breaks with WP:WEIGHT and WP:V. Samuelson's opinion column carries significantly smaller weight than a frontpage journalistic article with the full editorial review of Newsweek. The text about an Exxon campaign being discredited is not in the reference - the only thing Samuelson calls discredited is a specific instance with the AEI (ie. not Singer).
• This removes contnt that is supported by a reliable secondary source. With no good rationale - if we are going to "trim it" then we should cut down or consolidate text from various references - not remove the refs.
• This because it is wrong. It wasn't astronomical observations - but erroneous interpretation of these. Do please note that it wasn't Singers erroneus interpretation. To my view it is far better to state that Singer was basing this on wrong data, than to say that he misinterpreted astronomical observations.

--Kim D. Petersen (talk) 10:37, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

• (a) The Newsweek piece isn't about Singer.
• (b) SEPP's executive board has 5 members. It isn't "SEPP = Singer".
• (c) This entire article as metastasized into a COATRACK to impugne Singer for his CC views. The material on AGW far outweighs the entire rest of the article. For a scientist with as lengthy, varied, and distinguished as Singer, this is clearly undue weight.
• (d) Re: Phobos, the original astronomical data was in error. Better observations led to a different conclusion. In any case, Singer never made the original allegation or wrote a paper or any other piece of it. He made one remark about it 50 years ago, and you're giving his bio entry greater length for this than even his original remark? This is clearly undue weight.

FellGleaming (talk) 13:37, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

Addendum: Reading the sources in full, it seems the entire article section on Phobos is entirely in error. Singer did not conclude the satellite was hollow, and his suggestion it may potentially be artificial was clearly predicated with caveats, which are not captured in the article text. Further, its a single off hand remark in a 60 year career; it's not only not notable, but seems included as a simple attempt to poison the well. FellGleaming (talk) 17:30, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

This concerns me. Is there anywhere easy I can find the references in full? --BozMo talk 18:56, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

Nothing whatsoever about this anywhere on the web but here. Three sources in the article. Two make no mention of Singer at all. The third, Astronautics, is reportedly published by the AAS, but they don't list it. They list one with a similar name, the Journal of Astronautical Sciences. It could have been renamed, but this one has been published since 1954.

In any case, the quote within the reference is: " ""My conclusion there is, and here I back Shklovsky, that if the satellite is indeed spiraling inward as deduced from astronomical observation, then there is little alternative to the hypothesis that it is hollow and therefore martian made. The big "if" lies in the astronomical observations; they may well be in error. Since they are based on several independent sets of measurements taken decades apart by different observers with different instruments, systematic errors may have influenced them.""."

Assuming this is accurate, he hasn't expressed anything definite, and clearly has serious doubts about the data. And if its not accurate, why is it even in the article?

And of course, the larger issue is notability. Why is this even in the article, if not for well-poisoning? A brief offhand remark that attracted no notability 50 years ago, made by a person still alive today? How is this relevant to such a lengthy and varied career? FellGleaming (talk) 19:20, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

No one has weighed in to support this albatross of a paragraph. I intend to delete it if no one raises a cogent objection by tomorrow. Fell Gleaming^(talk) 13:43, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

I've removed the material. It's potentially a very interesting bit of history, so if someone can suggest how to readd it without BLP concerns, I would certainly favor it. In the meantime, the material is below. Fell Gleaming^(talk) 23:25, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

In the absence of significant third party coverage of this, I agree that it is a miscellany which shouldn't be there. If it looks like other people did or do discuss that opinion much we would need to reconsider. --BozMo talk 05:34, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

Material removed
In 1960, Singer was one of several scientists who speculated that the Martian moon Phobos was artificial in origin. The claim was based on the erroneous conclusion that Phobos was hollow. Later observations demonstrated conclusively that Phobos was not hollow, rendering the artificial origin speculation moot.

At first glance, I thought the removal of the Phobos-as-hollow-artifact stuff was reasonable and well argued. But, I got curious, and did a little digging, and...nope, can't find any publication called Astronautics, can't find any evidence that Singer ever made any such statement. So, I removed this unverifiable material from the Phobos article as well.--CurtisSwain (talk) 21:16, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

Excellent; thank you Curtis. Someone went to immense trouble to use Wikipedia as a platform to punish Singer for his CC views. Fell Gleaming^(talk) 21:21, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

I went looking for who did this, and guess who I found? [1]. WMC, reinserting the bald faced claim that "Singer proposed Phobos is a space station built by aliens". Fell Gleaming^(talk) 21:30, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

FG it is not a bald faced claim - it was reliably sourced then. Perhaps you forgot? You did remove it yourself (including the reference) a few days ago. You on the other hand are seriously out of order here by casting aspersions at another editor . --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 22:59, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

Curtis, you may want to look back in the archives - Astronautics did exist, and the article as well - you can even request a copy if you want (i can't remember if i still have it around) - but at the time of the insertion, the reference was found and distributed to those who (just like you) had trouble accepting it :)

The thing to keep in mind here is the date, and the basis Singer had for this. Both taken into account there really isn't anything odious about it. It is only with todays eyes that it looks strange. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 23:02, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

Relevant archive discussions [2][3][4][5] - the first one is the one to read on Astronautics - the reason you can't find it is that the journal was renamed. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 23:08, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

In this case the aspersions are highly warranted. The issue isn't the source. Even if the source exists, its a complete and utter mischaracterization of that source. Further, even had the source been correctly summarized, simply mentioning it prominently in the lede is still another abuse. I'm curious who actually had the gall to characterize Singer as simply "an electrical engineer" in those early versions. I'd look back through the records, but I'm afraid of what I might find. Fell Gleaming^(talk) 23:32, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

May i ask you to refactor and remove everything that is a personal attack, or assumptions of bad faith in the above. Remove this comment when you do. Article talk space is not an acceptable venue for such- if you have a problem, you must take it to enforcement, ANI or another place where it is acceptable. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 23:39, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

I think the Singer talk page is an entirely appropriate venue to discuss a pattern of tendentious edits to that article. Or are you claiming that beginning the intro of a scientist of Singer's stature with the claim "he's an electrical engineer who thought the martian moons were built by aliens" was done in the best interests of Wikipedia? Fell Gleaming^(talk) 23:50, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

Fell - Any problem that may have existed in the lede was rectified long ago, and nowhere does the article claim "he's an electrical engineer." The central issue here is the Phobos-as-hollow-artifact stuff. I originally supported its removal, thinking, "If it ain't on the Internet, it doesn't exist." But, Kim has cleared that up for us. I agree that it isn't significant enough to be in the lede, but including it along side Singer's later views on Phobos is certainly appropriate, as it is a very interesting notion. Yes, Singer's statement was predicated with caveats, and those caveats were included in the material that was deleted from this article. Therefore, the material should be restored.--CurtisSwain (talk) 23:29, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

Done.--CurtisSwain (talk) 05:03, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but the restoral has several problems:

• Your new source still doesn't mention Singer.
• So far we have only Kim's word that any source mentions Singer, and that the source is accurately represented.
• The material is written to suggest Singer, among others, made the speculation and came to "erroneous conclusions", when Singer was openly critical of the data used to reach this conclusion (again, assuming Kim's source even exists)
• The new sources found, if anything, suggest that Singer had no real association with this hypothesis. If anything at all, he made one offhand, mildly critical comment on the subject. Unless he can be shown to have any real involvement with supporting or promulgating the idea, it does't rise to the notability of appearing in his bio.
• Given the lengthy history of tendentious edits and coatracking this article has seen, the inclusion appears designed simply to cast Singer in a poor light, rather than write a balanced, well-informed biography.

If you can find a way to rewrite the material and solve these problems, by all means do so. It's certainly an interesting bit of past history. But its inclusion in this particular bio, with its particular wording, has severe and what appears to be irreconcilable problems. Fell Gleaming^(talk) 14:14, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict)This statement: "So far we have only Kim's word that any source mentions Singer" is utter nonsense, and a rather clear case of WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT. Do please read the archives. If you ask nicely it may even be that Raul still has a PDF of the reference, and will send it to you. Otherwise a library can be recommended. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 14:21, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

You are obviously failing to WP:AGF. Kim has provided the source reference for you - it is not "only Kim's word that any source mentions Singer, and that the source is accurately represented," you are required to assume that Kim is accurately presenting the source in the absence of a history of source misrepresntation. Hipocrite (talk) 14:19, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

Known for, etc

Re [6]. Singer is "known", overwhelmingly, as a climate change denier (and an oznoe skeptic too).

Also, SV added that he "specializing in planetary science, global warming, and ozone depletion". I think that is misleading / wrong in the context of his professional career, which was ages ago, when he specialised in, oh, dunno really, the page says designing instruments for ozone (but that was in pre-ozone-depletion days). A an amateur (or perhaps semi-paid) denier he has indeed written lots about GW etc.

William M. Connolley (talk) 12:10, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

SV's edits, and blind reverst, have broken this; hence the tag William M. Connolley (talk) 13:06, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

This section appears to be a PoV challenge. I'm not taking sides, but there is ample precident that if there's a PoV dispute ongoing, tags should be on the article - in fact, theres at least one admin that I'm certain you'll defer to who has actually edited through full protection just to insert such a tag. Hipocrite (talk) 18:17, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps true elsewhere but on the CC pages Connolley, et. al. have fought edit wars over tags on articles and hence the standard is that there needs to be an agreed consensus that the tags belong there. Thus far, there is only William complaining. William does not a consensus make. --94.136.50.63 (talk) 18:35, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

Tags are supposed to be added as a last resort. SlimVirgin ^{talk contribs} 18:56, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

You've reverted attempts to remove "specializing in planetary science, global warming, and ozone depletion." You have not yet responded to WMC above asking "I think that is misleading / wrong in the context of his professional career, which was ages ago, when he specialised in, oh, dunno really, the page says designing instruments for ozone (but that was in pre-ozone-depletion days). A an amateur (or perhaps semi-paid) denier he has indeed written lots about GW etc," yet you have reverted his removal of "ozone depletion." You can't both refuse to solve the PoV dispute via discussion while at the same time reverting, and also refuse to allow the fact that there is an unfinished discussion on this talk page. It appears to me that we are actually at last resort here - what else do you suggest WMC do? Hipocrite (talk) 19:02, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

Having reviewed this, the article stated "specializing in planetary science, global warming, and ozone depletion." This was sourced to the back cover blurb (of questionable reliability) which states "... He devised the instrument used to measure stratospeheric ozone from satellites and was the first to point to and calculate the human-based production of atmospheric methane..." I do not see any evidence to generalize from the fact he made a detector and calculated methane to what he specialized in as an atmospheric physicist. I don't think that source is strong enough or specific enough to use as a main-descriptor in his headline. Hipocrite (talk) 19:15, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

professor emeritus

[SV copied a pile of stuff from her talk page, which is bad. If you want to know what it was, it is this diff [7] William M. Connolley (talk) 20:42, 13 May 2010 (UTC)]

As an intro, I'll self revert my recent sampsonite attempt on request. I'm concerned, however. Could someone reference that Singer is a professor emeritus? Hipocrite (talk) 13:05, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

Fair point. Will [8] do? William M. Connolley (talk) 13:09, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

Not really, as it's self published. UVA dept of environmental science disagrees - http://www.evsc.virginia.edu/faculty-staff/faculty/ Has other PE's listed, but not Singer. Hipocrite (talk) 13:11, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

I've added a source. [9] Perhaps we could drop the dept a note to ask whether their list is up to date. SlimVirgin ^{talk contribs} 13:31, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

He left UVA in 1994, according to his self-published CV (which does not list a emeritus position). That would be pretty out of date. Is the source you provided avaiable online, or do I need to go to the library? Hipocrite (talk) 13:35, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

It is (available, that is), at [10]. Where does this describe him as a PE? Hipocrite (talk) 13:37, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

Google Books lets people in different places see different things, but I can see it here, p. 52 (scroll to the end), which I think is the last page, or possibly the back cover. SlimVirgin ^{talk contribs} 13:40, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

I guess that works. I'm very concerned that he's not a PE. Is it appropriate to ask UVA if he is, or is that harassing? Hipocrite (talk) 13:44, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

No, it's fine to ask them. I can drop them a note if you like. Or you can if you prefer. SlimVirgin ^{talk contribs} 13:46, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

Either way. No time now, but I'll do this evening. Hipocrite (talk) 13:48, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

FWIW the reference appears to imply he was a PE in 2000. That does not mean he still is. These things often carry residence or other requirements and are not always until the grave. --BozMo talk 14:08, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

For virginia though [11] implies it would be permanent. So its probably ok --BozMo talk 14:13, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

Not really, as it's self published - curiously, SV was quite happy with self-pub stuff over at McI William M. Connolley (talk) 14:30, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

I don't know what "curiously" or "over at McI" refer to, and it was Hipocrite who wrote "Not really, as it's self-published," not me. Snide comments just waste time, William, especially when they miss the mark. SlimVirgin ^{talk contribs} 14:38, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

It means this [12]. Care to re-think? William M. Connolley (talk) 14:51, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

And? Please make your points in one post rather than several cryptic remarks followed by questions from others trying to work out what you're saying. SlimVirgin ^{talk contribs} 15:18, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

OK, let us do this very slowly. Over at McI, you've said that self-published refs are fine, if uncontroversial. So the same applies here. But you haven't said it here William M. Connolley (talk) 15:29, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

Self-published refs are fine in BLPs if by the subject. See V and BLP. I'm still not getting your point. SlimVirgin ^{talk contribs} 15:41, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

It is by Singer. I'm still not getting your point. Please read this exchange and reflect on whether more efficient communication would be worth a try William M. Connolley (talk) 15:58, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

Please stop the games. I have no idea what you're talking about and I doubt anyone else does either. SlimVirgin ^{talk contribs} 16:01, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

Oh dear. Is Please read this exchange and reflect on whether more efficient communication would be worth a try advice that only you are allowed to give and others are obliged to take? William M. Connolley (talk) 20:38, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

(←) I don't know why this is causing problems. Whatever that reason is, stop now. My point on self-published sources is that they are reliable untill their reliability is called into doubt or if they are self-serving. From WP:BLP - "Living persons may publish material about themselves, such as through press releases or personal websites. Such material may be used as a source only if ... it is not unduly self-serving ... there is no reasonable doubt as to its authenticity." Given that a more reliable source - UVA, appears to state differently, there's now reasonable doubt, so testimony transcripts are no longer acceptable sources. The published afterword, however, is, so I will wait till my UVA question is responded to. Hipocrite (talk) 16:04, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

Here is a self-pub-by-Singer source from 1996 [13] (we can assume that Singer == SEPP, yes?). My name is S. Fred Singer. I am professor emeritus of environmental sciences at the University of Virginia William M. Connolley (talk) 20:46, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

I don't think anyone understands your point. There are self-published sources written by Singer saying he is professor emeritus, and there are non-self-published sources saying the same thing, probably because he says it. We use both, and we're allowed to use both per V and BLP. Hipocrite or I, or both, are going to email the university to double-check. What is the remaining issue? SlimVirgin ^{talk contribs} 23:19, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

You bafflement is plain. But an email from you, copied here, purporting to be from the university, would be meaningless. We have Singer saying it, what more do we need? William M. Connolley (talk) 08:50, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

I didn't say we needed any more. It is Hipocrite who wants to check it, and it's fine to do that. And "purporting to be from the university"? You're suggesting we might forge an e-mail? SlimVirgin ^{talk contribs} 07:59, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

(←) My problem is that we have sources that lead one to believe he is emeritus. We have other sources that lead one to believe he is not. What we need is the word - even if it's not includable in article space as WP:OR - from the source that is definitively accurate. If they say he is emeritus, then we'll include it, sourced to something. If they says he's not emeritus, we just won't say he's emeritus. Hipocrite (talk) 12:09, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

professor emeritus. Generally

I don't know a definitive definition, or even if one exists but locally and elsewhere the usage seems to be this: (where are the formatting buttons!!!)

• An emeritus professor is someone who was a full, paid, professor, who has retired with respect to payroll, but who continues to maintain an office. He may well teach or research, but it is the office door and physical inbox that counts.
• In most non-payroll terms, an emeritus professor is not retired. He still goes to work, although he do so part time, even very part time.
• When the person fully retires (gives up his office, pigeon hole and parking privilege), he no longer appears on the university, school and department registers, and is in practice no longer referred to as emeritus. He is now past tense (like the dead and otherwise departed), and is referred to according to his most senior title of his career, which is probably "Professor", although it can be a political or military title instead.

Thus, emeritus would seem to describe the twilight period between formal retirement of the professor, and the retirement-proper, and is bound by the payroll-pension transition at the beginning, and the complete loss of office space at the end. — Preceding unsigned comment added by SmokeyJoe (talk • contribs)

Well, there is professor emeritus William M. Connolley (talk) 15:31, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

Professor emeritus is an honor that, as far as I know, most retiring professors do not receive. Receiving it can imply that the university considers the professor to be unusually valuable or still active in research. At least sometimes, emeritus professors can still apply for grants through the university. Cardamon (talk) 19:27, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

Professor emeritus, to my knowledge, is not something received officially, but is a title put on doors, websites and other registers to signify that the professor has formally retired but continues to enjoy privileges as if he has not retired. It shouldn't so much be said that it reflects anyone's judgment of value, just that the person continues to be active and the department lets them continue to control some real estate. Certainly emeritus Professors can and do receive grants, employ staff, support others' applications and receive money (directed or not, but usually directed, so as to be untaxable) in lieu of payment for teaching. Generally, they can't hold bureaucratic positions, such as head, or dean. Generally, they don't want to, with this being the real benefit of the transition.

I don't like the lost formatting buttons, but I do like how I can now colour code links like professor emeritus by size, so that I immediately know that the linked article is barely more than a stub. I'd add material there if I could actually attribute any of this. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 21:17, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

Hey, nice link. Gladdens the heart. :) SlimVirgin ^{talk contribs} 21:52, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

Source query

What is the relationship between this source and saying that Singer does not support the cancer-secondhand smoke link? Apologies if I'm being dense. SlimVirgin ^{talk contribs} 23:15, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

Hard to understand

A lot of this article is unreadable. What does this mean, for example?

In 2008, Singer's Science and Environmental Policy Project completed the organization of the Nongovernmental International Panel on Climate Change (NIPCC) as the culmination of a process that began in 2003. The NIPCC calls itself "an international coalition of scientists convened to provide an independent examination of the evidence available on the causes and consequences of climate change in the published, peer-reviewed literature – examined without bias and selectivity." The Science and Environmental Policy Project received $143,000 for preparing the report in 2007. The 2008 NIPCC document titled Nature, Not Human Activity Rules the Climate: Summary for Policymakers of the Report of the Nongovernmental International Panel of Climate Change, published by The Heartland Institute, was released in February-March 2008. Singer served as General Editor and also holds the copyright.

SlimVirgin ^{talk contribs} 00:00, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

Singer vs Lancaster

Perhaps I'm missing it, but I don't see anything about Singer's suit against Justin Lancaster in this article. According to The Real Global Warming Disaster and The Deniers, Justin Lancaster, acting on behalf of Al Gore, accused Singer of misrepresenting Roger Revelle's role in helping co-author an article that was critical of human-induced global warming. Because Lancaster refused to withdraw his accusations, Singer sued and Lancaster issued an apology and retraction, which he later partially retracted. Gore then, according to Booker and Solomon then asked Ted Koppel to investigate Singer's sources of funding, to which Koppel allegedly replied, "There is some irony in the fact that Vice President Gore-one of the most scientifically literate men to sit in the White House in this century-[is] resorting to political means to achieve what should ultimately be resolved on a purely scientific basis." There is a section on this in the Revelle article. Should it be mentioned here? Cla68 (talk) 00:14, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

I would say definitely yes. I'm about to go offline so I can't do anything right now, and I'm anyway still trying to get up to speed. If you have material to hand, please feel free to add it. SlimVirgin ^{talk contribs} 00:51, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

Old discussion and old text. Similar text was still there until 10 April 2010. Q Science (talk) 05:46, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

Ah, I see. Thank you. One problem with this kind of issue is explaining it briefly enough so that it doesn't violate WP:UNDUE, but completely enough so that it gives both sides of the story. I'll look into it further and try to come up with some text that will hopefully pass muster. Cla68 (talk) 06:03, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

Further Reading

The "Further Reading" section is very large, and more than half of it seems devoted not to sites about Singer, but to his own writing. That seems definitely coatracky to me. I suggest to eliminate most or even all of those links. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 08:14, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

I'm collecting them here because they tell the story of his career and the development of his views. Not sure what you mean by coatracky. I'll be using them to add to the bio. SlimVirgin ^{talk contribs} 09:26, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

This article is supposed to be about Singer, not be a platform for his views. Those are all primary sources. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 11:30, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

It's about his life, his views, his career—everything that we can source reliably. SlimVirgin ^{talk contribs} 13:08, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

About, yes. Parroting, no. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 20:34, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

Name

I can't find a reliable source that calls him Frederick (just WP and some mirrors). He's unlikely to be called that if he was born in Vienna, and most of the sources call him Fred, so I've changed it to that for now. SlimVirgin ^{talk contribs} 09:28, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

If he was born in Vienna, "Fred" is a lot less likely than "Frederick" - possibly it was Friederich and was anglicised on emigration. He is listed as "Frederick Singer" on IMDB. The German national library has him as Sigfried and Fred (and by initials), as has the library of congress. If he is "Frederick", he rarely uses that name. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 11:30, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

Lead

William, this article was in very bad shape, and still needs a lot of work. It would be better if you didn't edit it given the previous problems and complaints, and adding that he's first and foremost a global warming skeptic is really inappropriate. [14] SlimVirgin ^{talk contribs} 19:32, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

This article is in terrible shape after your edits. It is full of things either uncited, or cited to Singer-self pub stuff, and repeats unverified claims by Singer. Please don't do that. If you can't do better, it would be better if you didn't edit this article. As to your request - Ive' already rejected it. I can only presume you're repeating it here in the hope taht someone else will notice it, which seems unlikely William M. Connolley (talk) 19:38, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

After I reverted WMC's attempt to say Singer is a skeptic before we even say he's a physicist, WMC responded by adding the POV tag, removing material sourced to the New York Times, and adding six citation-needed tags to the lead. I've reported it to the climate change probation page, and requested that WMC be asked not to edit this article. [15] SlimVirgin ^{talk contribs} 20:36, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

I notice you've removed any ref to Singer as a GWS from the first sentence. That seems very odd to me. Do you really believe that aspect of his career is so non-notable? Personally, I think he is far more notable for GWS - all the argument here bears that out, no-one bothers argue over atmospheric phyicists - and that should come first. But even if you disagree about the order, it seems very odd to whitewash GWS entirely from the first sentence. Try googling Singer. Note the tagline of SEPP William M. Connolley (talk) 21:59, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

NPOV tag / blind reverts by SV

I see the blind reverting is back [16]. Singer is far and away best known as a global warming skeptic. Whatever he did for science is long forgotten, however wonderful it may once have been. Reverting it out of the lede is whitewashing. And, as I've said before, he isn't an AP. He *was* an AP. He is now a retired AP William M. Connolley (talk) 19:42, 15 May 2010 (UTC)