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::::::::You seem to have trouble seeing the wood for the trees. Your logic and argument is flawed. You repeatedly claim that the quote has "nothing" to do with the GF but admit it is about the GS/FP. Well, the GF ''is'' an implication of the GS/FP (or the implausibility of the zoo hypothesis, for that matter), so therefore it ''does'' has relevance. That really should be the end of the matter. And you didn't answer my question, ''Why does Hanson mention the "behavior of ... other galaxies" if it is irrelevant?'' The answer is simple, he mentions it because it ''is'' relevant to the GF. --[[User:MichaelCPrice|Michael C. Price]] <sup>[[User talk:Michael C Price|talk]]</sup> 11:12, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
::::::::You seem to have trouble seeing the wood for the trees. Your logic and argument is flawed. You repeatedly claim that the quote has "nothing" to do with the GF but admit it is about the GS/FP. Well, the GF ''is'' an implication of the GS/FP (or the implausibility of the zoo hypothesis, for that matter), so therefore it ''does'' has relevance. That really should be the end of the matter. And you didn't answer my question, ''Why does Hanson mention the "behavior of ... other galaxies" if it is irrelevant?'' The answer is simple, he mentions it because it ''is'' relevant to the GF. --[[User:MichaelCPrice|Michael C. Price]] <sup>[[User talk:Michael C Price|talk]]</sup> 11:12, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
:::::::::Asking for sources has nothing to do with logic and argument; It's how we write articles. There is no reliable source about the Great Filter that says or implies anything having to do with "despite centuries of astronomical observations". That is something LouScheffer admittedly invented. Hanson doesn't talk about it, and as far as I can tell, it has no meaning. What does the length of time regarding astronomical observation have to do with the GF? Nothing. Why is it in this article? Why does it continue to get added after I have repeatedly asked for sources? The argument concerning the Fermi paradox has to do with the length of time older civilizations would have had to colonize our Solar System (and the rest of the galaxy) It has nothing to do with the length of time we have been observing the sky. And, I most certainly did answer your question and I'll answer it again since you missed it the first time: Hanson's comments are in reference to the FP and the zoo hypothesis, not the GF. It has nothing to do with "centuries of astronomical observation" nor is there any implication. We do not interpret what we think an author means. We quote and paraphrase explicitly. Please stop adding "despite centuries of astronomical observations" since it is not in the original source. Please use the original source on the subject of the GF to make whatever point you are trying to make. That's how we write articles. [[User:Viriditas|Viriditas]] ([[User talk:Viriditas|talk]]) 11:37, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
:::::::::Asking for sources has nothing to do with logic and argument; It's how we write articles. There is no reliable source about the Great Filter that says or implies anything having to do with "despite centuries of astronomical observations". That is something LouScheffer admittedly invented. Hanson doesn't talk about it, and as far as I can tell, it has no meaning. What does the length of time regarding astronomical observation have to do with the GF? Nothing. Why is it in this article? Why does it continue to get added after I have repeatedly asked for sources? The argument concerning the Fermi paradox has to do with the length of time older civilizations would have had to colonize our Solar System (and the rest of the galaxy) It has nothing to do with the length of time we have been observing the sky. And, I most certainly did answer your question and I'll answer it again since you missed it the first time: Hanson's comments are in reference to the FP and the zoo hypothesis, not the GF. It has nothing to do with "centuries of astronomical observation" nor is there any implication. We do not interpret what we think an author means. We quote and paraphrase explicitly. Please stop adding "despite centuries of astronomical observations" since it is not in the original source. Please use the original source on the subject of the GF to make whatever point you are trying to make. That's how we write articles. [[User:Viriditas|Viriditas]] ([[User talk:Viriditas|talk]]) 11:37, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
::::::::::Your edit summary claim that such explanations are "advancing a position" is ridiculous. I note you are now claiming that "rephrasing" has to be "explicit"; that is a (another) contradiction in terms. Since you seem not willing to understand the utility and necessity of explanations I have nothing more to say. You are editing against the consensus and I have no doubt your material will be reverted. --[[User:MichaelCPrice|Michael C. Price]] <sup>[[User talk:Michael C Price|talk]]</sup> 11:42, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

===Disputed text===
===Disputed text===
''We have not yet observed evidence of intelligent extraterrestrial life. As Hanson notes, "If such advanced life had substantially colonized our planet, we would know it by now."[2] Furthermore, we have seen no evidence elsewhere in the universe either, despite centuries of astronomical observations. Hanson states:[2]''
''We have not yet observed evidence of intelligent extraterrestrial life. As Hanson notes, "If such advanced life had substantially colonized our planet, we would know it by now."[2] Furthermore, we have seen no evidence elsewhere in the universe either, despite centuries of astronomical observations. Hanson states:[2]''

Revision as of 11:42, 26 January 2010

This page was the subject of a VfD debate on April 16, 2005. The decision was to merge and redirect to/with Fermi Paradox. See Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/The Great Filter for discussion. Mackensen (talk) 05:18, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)

new merge proposal

I am suggesting this page be merged with Rare Earth hypothesis J8079s (talk) 22:35, 21 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This idea is based on a false assumption

This page should not be in Wikipedia. Taking a fact that "We have not yet observed evidence of intelligent extraterrestrial life, though we have observed a great number of stars" and concluding that there must be as 'Great Filter' is nonsense. The fact that we have studied a star doesnt mean the we have 'observed' it to the degree necesarry to determine if it harbours a civilisation or not. Speculation based on that original false assumption should not be in Wikipedia. WalrusLike (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 02:24, 23 August 2009 (UTC).[reply]

You really have to understand how much our understanding about this topic has changed in just the last two decades. This kind of topic is a relic from a time when even bringing up the subject of inhabited exoplanets would label you as a crank. We are now on the cusp of answering this question, and quite possibly a paradigm shift. The people talking about the "Great Filter" and "Rare Earth" represent the older generation of scientists. Remember, there was a time where if you even discussed plate tectonics you were labeled as a crank, and that was only up until the 1950s. Are we alone? Stay tuned; We're about to find out. Viriditas (talk) 08:19, 23 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Sure, the idea may be wrong. But Wikipedia articles are about "ideas that have been seriously considered", which can be verified, and not ideas that are "correct", since that's often a matter of debate. See, for example, Lamarckism or N ray. So maybe in 50 years folks will think of this as a quaint and antiquated notion, but they should still be able to look it up and see what folks thought at the time. LouScheffer (talk) 12:07, 23 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I have added a fact tag for the current wording in the lead sentence. Please support it directly with a good source. The notion that there has been "considerable effort" is not supported by any known source. There has actually been very little effort and almost no money spent on the idea. In fact, it would cost somewhere around 5 billion just to look for signs of life on Earth-like planets. There's lots of work to do, and claiming that "considerable effort" has been made already is not only wrong, it's ridiculous. Viriditas (talk) 12:47, 23 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The SETI page, which I linked to, had 10s of searches performed by many different teams. More broadly, all of astronomy constitutes a search for anything that does not have a explanation without invoking intelligence. Many people would consider even the SETI effort (hundreds of person years and tens of millions of dollars) as considerable, and astronomy certainly is. LouScheffer (talk) 19:06, 23 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The material you keep adding into this article has nothing to do with the Great Filter argument, and remains unsourced after multiple requests for references and a small rewrite. I really don't understand why you are continuing to add this material after I have requested sources which you have failed to provide. The material you have added is also incorrect as we have not even begun to find Earth-like planets. The argument has to do with the fact that we don't see the Solar System or nearby systems colonized, not that we have been observing for years. Please make a note of this and either find sources to support your addition, or I will remove it again. Viriditas (talk) 23:21, 23 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I've removed the following highlighted material:

The Great Filter is an implication of the failure to find any extraterrestrial civilizations in the observable universe, despite hundreds of years of increasingly sophisticated astronomy and dedicated searches for extraterrestrial intelligence.

There is no "despite" here, and there has not been "hundreds of years" of astronomical observation or greatly funded searches for ET intelligence that amount to anything more than picking up a pile of sand on a large beach and letting it sift through your hands. Please provide sources if you would like to keep adding this statement. I have not found a Great Filter argument that states this, as it is false. Viriditas (talk) 02:09, 24 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Let's look at statements in the "Great Filter" article itself:
"Finally, we expect advanced life to substantially disturb the places it colonizes. Whenever natural systems are not ideally structured to support colonists, we expect changes to be made. And unless ideal structures always either closely mimic natural appearances or are effectively invisible, we expect advanced life to make visible changes."
And how would we see these changes? By conventional astronomy...
"For example, it only takes a small amount of nuclear waste dropped into to visibly change its spectra [Whitmire & Wright 80.] And a civilization might convert enough of a star's asteroids into orbiting solar-energy collectors to collect a substantial fraction of this star's output, thereby substantially changing the star's spectral, temporal, and spatial appearances. Even more advanced colonists may disassemble stars [Criswell 85] or enclose them in Dyson spheres well within a million years of arrival. Galaxies may even be restructured wholesale [Dyson 66]."
"If such advanced life had substantially colonized our planet, we would know it by now. We would also know it if they had restructured most of our solar system's asteroid belt (though much smaller colonies could be hard to detect [Papagiannis 78]).:
And how would we know this? Conventional astronomy
"And they certainly haven't disassembled Jupiter or our sun."
Conventional astronomy
"We should even know it if they had aggressively colonized most of the nearby stars, but left us as a "nature preserve"."
Conventional astronomy
"Our planet and solar system, however, don't look substantially colonized by advanced competitive life from the stars, and neither does anything else we see."
Conventional astronomy
"To the contrary, we have had great success at explaining the behavior of our planet and solar system, nearby stars, our galaxy, and even other galaxies, via simple "dead" physical processes, rather than the complex purposeful processes of advanced life."
Conventional astronomy
"Given how similar our galaxy looks to nearby galaxies, it would even be hard to see how our whole galaxy could be a "nature preserve" among substantially-restructured galaxies."
And yet again
"These considerations strongly suggest that no civilization in our past universe has reached such an "explosive" point, to become the source of a light speed expansion of thorough colonization."
These are ALL based on conventional astronomy, except for the one mention that Earth does not appear to have been colonized.
In short, this is *Directly* supported by the referenced article. LouScheffer (talk) 15:59, 24 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
LouScheffer, I asked you for citations. You didn't provide them and I removed the material. Is there a reason you keep adding unsourced content to this article? We don't write articles based on original research. There has not been "hundreds of years of increasingly sophisticated astronomy and dedicated searches for extraterrestrial intelligence" and the fact that you keep adding this false statement to this article is very disturbing. I am removing it once again. Please do not continue to add unsourced original research. You need to find sources for your claims. The Great Filter argument has nothing to do with what you claim, and there is no source on the planet that will support your claim. Please find a reliable sources about the Great Filter that directly and unambiguously supports this material. That's how we write articles here. What we don't do, is continue to add the same disputed, unsourced material after repeated requests for sources. You need to stop doing that. For the last time, the material you keep adding is disputed. Please find sources that support it and the Great Filter, in relation to each other. And just to remind you once again about the problem with your writing, there has not been "hundreds of years" of "sophisticated astronomy and dedicated searches for extraterrestrial intelligence". SETI has operated for less than 50 years and has searched only about 1000 out of 200-400 billion stars, and this search has occurred on a regular basis only very recently. The Allen Telescope Array is not even fully operational yet, but when it is the search will expand from 1000 stars to hundreds of thousands. In other words, the real search hasn't even begun yet, and we have only just started to use new technology to search, locate, and hopefully identify habitable worlds around other stars. Claiming that this has all been done before as you have, is not true. Viriditas (talk) 23:57, 24 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You have asked for sources - I quoted the original document on the Great filter, and show how it applies. The *original source* talks directly of comparing galaxies, and how they look "natural". Please show for each of the statements above how they could be interpreted contrary to the statements added? Also, the increasingly sophisticated is clear as well. Even a caveman could have told if the sun had been dis-assembled. The Greeks had the technology to notice Jupiter. Comparing galaxies is a mostly 20th century pastime. LouScheffer (talk) 01:32, 25 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The source you quoted, Hanson 1998, did not say "despite hundreds of years of increasingly sophisticated astronomy and dedicated searches for extraterrestrial intelligence", and that statement is neither relevant nor correct. Hanson does say, "No alien civilizations have substantially colonized our solar system or systems nearby. Thus among the billion trillion stars in our past universe, none has reached the level of technology and growth that we may soon reach. This one data point implies that a Great Filter stands between ordinary dead matter and advanced exploding lasting life. And the big question is: How far along this filter are we?" Is that clear? What is the reason you keep adding your OR to the article and what source supports it directly? I realize that some sources might make some related claims, such as Bostrom and others, but you would not then be describing Hanson's hypothesis. Please stick to the Great Filter, and find sources that discuss it, otherwise, attribute the descriptions of other writers in the appropriate place. Viriditas (talk) 02:01, 25 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

(deindent) The source is Nick Bostrom: "How do I arrive at this conclusion? I begin by reflecting on a well‐known fact. UFO‐spotters, Raelian cultists, and self‐certified alien abductees notwithstanding, humans have, to date, seen no sign of any extraterrestrial intelligent civilization. We have not received any visitors from space, nor have our radio telescopes detected any signals transmitted by any extraterrestrial civilization. The Search for Extra‐Terrestrial Intelligent Life (SETI) has been going for nearly fifty years, employing increasingly powerful telescopes and data mining techniques, and has so far consistently 1 corroborated the null hypothesis. As best we have been able to determine, the night sky is empty and silent—the question “Where are they?” thus being at least as pertinent today as it was when Enrico Fermi first posed it during a lunch discussion with some of his physicist colleagues back in 1950. Here is another fact: There are on the order of 100 billion stars in our galaxy alone, and the observable universe contains on the order of 100 billion galaxies. In the last couple of decades, we have learnt that many of these stars have planets circling around them. By now, several hundred exoplanets we have discovered. Most of these are gigantic, but this is due to a selection effect: It is very difficult to detect smaller exoplanets with current observation methods. (In most cases, the planets cannot be directly observed. Their existence is inferred from their gravitational influence on their parent sun, which wobbles slightly when pulled towards a large orbiting planet; or alternatively by a slight fluctuation in their sun’s perceived luminosity which occurs when it is partially eclipsed by the exoplanet.) We have every reason to believe that the observable universe contains vast numbers of solar systems, including many that have planets that are Earth‐like at least in the sense of having a mass and temperature similar to those of our own orb. We also know that many of these solar systems are much older than ours. From these two facts it follows that there exists a “Great Filter”.1"--Michael C. Price talk 07:05, 25 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Bostrom is the source for what here? Can you please be specific? What does "these two facts" refer to here? Viriditas (talk) 07:18, 25 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Read the source for context. --Michael C. Price talk 07:20, 25 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I read and understood it before your comment. I am asking you what you think these two facts refer to, because there appears to be some confusion. So please, tell me, in your own words, what you think these two things are. Viriditas (talk) 07:31, 25 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
1) Failure of SETI. 2) We are young. Universe is old.--Michael C. Price talk 09:05, 25 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
No, 1 represents the Fermi paradox, which could arguably include the Great Silence (alleged failure of SETI; it is false to claim SETI has failed) but does not actually point to it and it alone; there are many different factors (see the Fermi paradox article). This is what I mean when I write "the failure to find any extraterrestrial civilizations". The second part, "in the observable universe", refers to Bostrom's 2, but does not explicitly state we are young and the universe is old, as this is assumed in 1, not by Bostrom, but by the FP. Viriditas (talk) 10:57, 25 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Despite centuries of astronomical observation

(de-indent) "To the contrary" = despite, and you would be hard pressed to find a better explanation of the goals of astronomy than "explaining the behavior of our planet and solar system, nearby stars, our galaxy, and even other galaxies". The main observations on which this idea is based are from astronomy. The reader deserves a link to the methods that were used to get the information on which the hypothesis is based. It's also very relevant (for a negative observation) to say how long and how hard people have looked to find the supposedly missing item. Hence the centuries and the link to History of astronomy. LouScheffer (talk) 13:06, 25 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I have asked you several times to stop adding original research to this article and to produce a source for the claim that "We have not yet observed evidence of intelligent extraterrestrial life, despite centuries of astronomical observations" that is directly related to the Great Filter hypothesis. Is there a reason you cannot do this? Hanson does not say this. What he does say is a restatement of the Fermi paradox which is not dependent on claiming that we have not observed evidence of intelligent ET life "despite centuries of astronomical observations" because it is irrelevant. The point is that they would have already colonized this Solar System based on the assumptions in the FP, so there is no need to even say such a thing. Is there a reason you keep adding it to this article, and is there a reason you cannot provide a source connecting it to the GF? Clearly, they are not here and why they are not here has nothing to do with "centuries of astronomical observations". Do you get it? If you assume that interstellar travel between star systems is possible, then the Solar System should already have been colonized in the past. It hasn't and it isn't. We don't need "centuries of astronomical observations" to come to this conclusion, but other arguments do come into play (for example, have we found artifacts, life on other planets within the Solar System, SETI, etc.) Your insistence on adding this material is irrelevant and focuses on one small part of the problem, and is not covered by the sources on the Great Filter. We already have our working assumptions from the FP and don't require your superfluous, unsourced statement. The conclusion that they aren't here and aren't in our Solar System does not require "centuries of astronomical observation". Is this making sense? Viriditas (talk) 13:39, 25 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I do not believe this is original research. From the Wikipedia page on the subject,

Carefully summarizing or rephrasing a source without changing its meaning or implication does not violate this policy: this is good editing. Best practice is to write Wikipedia articles by researching the most reliable sources on the topic and summarizing what they say in your own words, with each statement in the article attributable to a source that makes this statement explicitly.

The Fermi paradox has (at least) two versions - they have not colonized the Earth (no astronomy needed), and "we see no evidence of their existence" (this is where the centuries of astronomy come in). The sentence I have quoted (and summarized) is about the astronomical part, and I believe it is a careful summary of that point, without changing the meaning. The history of astronomy is very relevant to this argument, since the strength of a negative observation depends entirely on how hard people have tried.
I am happy to add in the other argument as well, also supported by a quote from the original. LouScheffer (talk) 13:44, 25 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You might want to look at the definition of the word paraphrase because you aren't doing it. You are interpreting, which is an altogether different process. And your interpretation is adding extraneous material to Hanson's hypothesis - material that is already covered by the FP and is not dependent on any astronomical observation. Please understand, the FP was nothing more than a back-of-the-envelope calculation (that was probably done in Fermi's head), a thought experiment that never relied on astronomical observation or required it. The fact that aliens aren't walking around the Earth and traveling to Alpha Centauri for lunch, is more than enough evidence. The implications of the FP, namely the proposed filter, is the topic of this article. We aren't concerned with any astronomical observations. Viriditas (talk) 13:53, 25 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Rubbish, the GF depends on astronomical observations that we live in an apparently dead universe. Cf Hanson/Bostrom comments about the "dead physics" of stellar and galactic evolution. --Michael C. Price talk 16:55, 25 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Rubbish right back at you. The GF depends on no such thing. It merely describes one implication of the FP, which fully covers this topic. Bostrom's comments on astronomical observations are a description of one aspect of the FP, not the GF. I thought this was very clear in his essay as he ends the paragraph in question with a reference to the FP. Perhaps you missed it. In any case, the statement "we have seen no evidence elsewhere in the universe either, despite centuries of astronomical observations" is not part of the GF and is not sourced to Hanson. The length of time we have spent observing the universe is irrelvant to the GF and was added by LouScheffer without any GF-related source. As far as I can tell, this addition alludes to a brief comment about the GF made by science fiction writer Damien Broderick in the speculative book, The Spike (2002), not Hanson. We need to stick to what Hanson says, and what he says has nothing to do with "centuries of astronomical observations". Viriditas (talk) 09:26, 26 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Rubbish. Observation of the dead universe requires observation. That includes astronomical observation. Why does Hanson mention the "behavior of ... other galaxies" if it is irrelevant? --Michael C. Price talk 10:30, 26 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Please stop removing my request for sources. Hanson's comments about the GF have nothing to do with "centuries of astronomical observations". His comments are in reference to the FP and the zoo hypothesis, not GF:

Our planet and solar system, however, don't look substantially colonized by advanced competitive life from the stars, and neither does anything else we see. To the contrary, we have had great success at explaining the behavior of our planet and solar system, nearby stars, our galaxy, and even other galaxies, via simple "dead" physical processes, rather than the complex purposeful processes of advanced life. Given how similar our galaxy looks to nearby galaxies, it would even be hard to see how our whole galaxy could be a "nature preserve" among substantially-restructured galaxies.

There is nothing that says "despite centuries of astronomical observations" nor anything about the history of astronomy, so the link makes no sense. Hanson's statement has to do with FP and the zoo hypothesis, not the GF. There is nothing in Hanson's unpublished essay that supports the inclusion of the statement "despite centuries of astronomical observations" and I don't understand why it keeps getting added. I am tagging the section as original research since you keep removing the fact tag. Viriditas (talk) 10:51, 26 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You seem to have trouble seeing the wood for the trees. Your logic and argument is flawed. You repeatedly claim that the quote has "nothing" to do with the GF but admit it is about the GS/FP. Well, the GF is an implication of the GS/FP (or the implausibility of the zoo hypothesis, for that matter), so therefore it does has relevance. That really should be the end of the matter. And you didn't answer my question, Why does Hanson mention the "behavior of ... other galaxies" if it is irrelevant? The answer is simple, he mentions it because it is relevant to the GF. --Michael C. Price talk 11:12, 26 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Asking for sources has nothing to do with logic and argument; It's how we write articles. There is no reliable source about the Great Filter that says or implies anything having to do with "despite centuries of astronomical observations". That is something LouScheffer admittedly invented. Hanson doesn't talk about it, and as far as I can tell, it has no meaning. What does the length of time regarding astronomical observation have to do with the GF? Nothing. Why is it in this article? Why does it continue to get added after I have repeatedly asked for sources? The argument concerning the Fermi paradox has to do with the length of time older civilizations would have had to colonize our Solar System (and the rest of the galaxy) It has nothing to do with the length of time we have been observing the sky. And, I most certainly did answer your question and I'll answer it again since you missed it the first time: Hanson's comments are in reference to the FP and the zoo hypothesis, not the GF. It has nothing to do with "centuries of astronomical observation" nor is there any implication. We do not interpret what we think an author means. We quote and paraphrase explicitly. Please stop adding "despite centuries of astronomical observations" since it is not in the original source. Please use the original source on the subject of the GF to make whatever point you are trying to make. That's how we write articles. Viriditas (talk) 11:37, 26 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Your edit summary claim that such explanations are "advancing a position" is ridiculous. I note you are now claiming that "rephrasing" has to be "explicit"; that is a (another) contradiction in terms. Since you seem not willing to understand the utility and necessity of explanations I have nothing more to say. You are editing against the consensus and I have no doubt your material will be reverted. --Michael C. Price talk 11:42, 26 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Disputed text

We have not yet observed evidence of intelligent extraterrestrial life. As Hanson notes, "If such advanced life had substantially colonized our planet, we would know it by now."[2] Furthermore, we have seen no evidence elsewhere in the universe either, despite centuries of astronomical observations. Hanson states:[2]

This doesn't make any sense. The first sentence already implies the second, so why is it stated twice? And the note isn't Hanson, but a restatement of the FP by Hanson. And what does the length of time spent making astronomical observations have to do with this subject? This needs to be rewritten to stick to the topic of the Great Filter using only reliable sources. Viriditas (talk) 11:12, 26 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The first sentence only implies the second if you make a lot of implicit assumptions that need spelling out in the article. That called "explanation" and is not OR. --Michael C. Price talk 11:15, 26 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It makes no sense whatsoever to say the same thing twice, nor to mention something completely out of left field like "despite centuries of astronomical observations". What source about the GF says this explicitly? None. Why is it in the article? What does it have to do with the Great Filter? Nothing whatsoever. Viriditas (talk) 11:19, 26 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Q Why is it in the article? A: it's an explanation. --Michael C. Price talk 11:24, 26 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It's not an explanation of the Great Filter. In fact, it has nothing to do with the Great Filter. What is it explaining? The content, "despite centuries of astronomical observations" has nothing to do with this subject. What is it explaining? As far as I can tell, it's a misreading of the Fermi paradox. Aliens have had centuries to colonize the galaxy and the Solar System. Since they aren't here, and we don't find their artifacts, their colonies, or their broadcasts, then where are they? This has nothing to do with the length of time we have been observing the skies. So, what is it explaining and why does it keep getting added to an article about the Great Filter? And, what source is being used to support it? Viriditas (talk) 11:27, 26 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
What is it explaining? It's explaining how we know we live in a dead universe. Of course there is other evidence (which Hanson also mentions), but you seem obsessively focused on one to the exclusion of all else. --Michael C. Price talk 11:34, 26 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Then please either quote Hanson (or another author) directly or paraphrase unambiguously from the source to make your point. This is very simple. What we do not do, is interpret as you and Lou are doing. That's OR. What we write has to be unambiguous and easy to find in the original source. Please fix the problem I have described or I will remove it again. If the material cannot be found in the original source, explanation or not, it doesn't belong here. Everything we write must be attributable to a reliable source. We do not write ambiguous interpretations. Please rewrite it so that it conforms with the source and is reflected in that source without any interpretation. Viriditas (talk) 11:41, 26 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Status of the Great Filter hypothesis

Social scientist Robin Hanson has said that this has been in preprint since 1998. Has it ever been published? Viriditas (talk) 00:19, 25 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

First draft was written in 1996, it seems. Is it fair to call this an unpublished hypothesis? Viriditas (talk) 07:34, 25 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Essay appears to be offline but available on the Internet Archive. Is there a working link for it besides cache copies? Viriditas (talk) 11:07, 26 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]