Talk:India

Edit request from Sameer101286, 6 June 2011

Under Strength of the country(India) it says that It has the third-largest standing army in the world but it is actually the largest volunteer standing army in the world.

Ref: indianarmy.nic.in/ Sameer101286 (talk) 11:28, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

I don't see the section you're talking about. Are you sure you have the right article? Also, see the references at Indian Army; in general, primary sources are less desirable than secondary sources. Feezo (send a signal | watch the sky) 14:48, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

Etymology

The below information added by me on India has been reverted:

The word Hindustan(the Land of Hind) which came from Dari language spoken in Persia is the corrupt form of Sanskrit word Sindh pradesh(the Land of Sindh). The language of Sindh called Sindhi was called Hindi in dari language. Sindh was called hind and people were called Hindu from the name of the river Sindhu.

Can anybody tell me what is wrong in above information? Above information is true to the best of my knowledge even though I don't have any reference at present but that doesn't means that information can't be added. If anybody has any problem which he can show by contrary reference then I shall not revert that change. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hrihr (talk • contribs) 17:26, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

In Wikipedia, it is required that the statements are to be backed up by 'reliable secondary sources'. India page is also a 'featured article', requiring a watertight case for truths in the form of 'multiple well-known' secondary sources along with unique requirements of 'consistent reporting in media', often also requiring presence of consensus & 'absence of no consensus', a general ability to respond to repeated incorrect misplaced assertions from different users(a few uninformed ones could throw their own incorrect assertions randomly) at different times and subsequent answering to moderators on facts presented repeatedly to different users at different times. Don't lose your heart, welcome to Wikipedia! ..असक्तः सततं कार्य कर्म समाचर | असक्तः हि आचरन् कर्म.. Humour Thisthat2011 18:35, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

Agree with Thisthat's comments. Welcome to Wiki. --BweeB (talk) 18:37, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

Even though I was not able to understand you completely still I welcome your suggestion. I believe that every line that we put in the article need not have corresponding reference. Second, reference can be put by some other contributor because only through combined contribution Wikipedia has been able to reach so far. Third, what I said is neither something alien nor contrary to something already written. Rest do what you like. Hrihr (talk) 20:02, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from 98.28.172.69, 7 June 2011

|image_map_caption = Maurya Empire at its maximum extent (Dark Blue), including its vassals (Light Blue). |capital = Pataliputra

98.28.172.69 (talk) 23:43, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

 Not done Please be specific on what has to be changed/added. —Abhishek ^{Talk to me} 02:30, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

Let me know if this edit is fine. ..असक्तः सततं कार्य कर्म समाचर | असक्तः हि आचरन् कर्म.. Humour Thisthat2011 09:51, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

History

Under the rule of Akbar the Great, India enjoyed much cultural and economic progress as well as religious harmony. The Mughals also forged a strategic alliance with several Hindu Rajputs kingdoms. However, some Rajput kings, such as Maha Rana Pratap, continued to pose significant threat to Mughal dominance of northwestern India. Additionally, regional empires in southern and northeastern India, such as the Ahoms of Assam, successfully resisted Mughal subjugation. Shah Jahan, the fifth emperor, reign was the golden age of Mughal architecture. He erected many splendid monuments, the most famous of which is the legendary Taj Mahal at Agra as well as Pearl Mosque, the Red Fort, Jama Masjid Mosque, Lahore Fort and a mosque in Thatta. The reign of Aurangzeb saw the enforcement of strict Muslim fundamentalism which caused rebellions among the Sikhs and Hindu Rajputs. By early 1700s, the Sikh Empire and the Hindu Marathas had emerged as formidable foes of the Mughals. Following the death of Aurangzeb, the Maratha Empire expanded greatly under the rule of the Peshwas, ruling most of the Indian Subcontinent by the mid-eighteenth century. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.115.82.63 (talk) 07:24, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

• History section needs info on:

1. Tripartite Struggle between the Rashtrakuta Empire, Pala Empire, Pratihara
2. The bulk-ward against the Islamic resulted in the emergence of Vijayanagara Empire, Gajapati Kingdom, and Rajput States.

Largest city of India

The largest city of India is Kolkata, not Mumbai as mentioned in the right-hand data corner

Current reference is -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kolkata (for size of Kolkata)

AND

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mumbai (for size of Mumbai)

Moreover, that is what I have heard from my childhood.

I request some registered user to please change the "Largest City" part.

Mumbai is the most populous city, but not the largest city. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kryptoneon (talk • contribs) 19:16, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

I agree as per numbers and real statistics, the real density of land and land area of the city - Kolkata should be the largest city in India not Mumbai. The external websites which state Mumbai in this regard is totally wrong. Mumbai is known as most populous, bollywood center and financial hub of India but as per size it should go to Kolkata, formerly Calcutta. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.178.160.196 (talk) 09:17, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

wrong Maurya map

There are 2 issues with this picture. 1st, it doesn't accurately display the boundaries of the empire. According to Gbooks it was lying between the Hindukush to the west, Bengal to the east, Afg to the North and the Narmada river to the South. Especially the Southern extent, which ended at Karnataka, is very wrong displayed here. The second problem is the vassal status of the southern kingdoms. Actually Ashoka mentions the Cholas, Pandyas, Keralaputras, Satyaputras as friendly neighboors or in other words alliies. Various Gbook sources state, that these were independent kingdoms. It is clear to me, that this map was created for political propaganda by some Hindiwallas.--David Fraudly (talk) 06:32, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

Here is a good description of the Mauryan extent: A history of India By Hermann Kulke, Dietmar Rothermund, p.70. I request to modify the file or remove it completely. --David Fraudly (talk) 06:53, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

That doesn't sound unreasonable. And I note that the map itself is unsourced. I've reverted my edit (the map is removed) and it can easily be reinstated if it is shown to be correct. --rgpk (comment) 12:21, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps this may help: File:AiKhanoumAndIndia.jpg - "The distribution of the Edicts of Ashoka.[16] is a concrete indication of the extent of Ashoka's rule. To the West, it went as far as Kandahar (where the Edicts were written in Greek and Aramaic), and bordered the contemporary Hellenistic metropolis of Ai Khanoum.". ..असक्तः सततं कार्य कर्म समाचर | असक्तः हि आचरन् कर्म.. Humour Thisthat2011 14:24, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

ThisThat, I think the issue is what were the territorial limits of the Maurya Empire. It would be helpful if someone could produce a reference that shows these limits so that we can verify whether the original map was correct or not. I believe that the map is largely correct, but it is better to verify that independently. (I could do so later this week but add a source here, on the talk page, if you have one available.) --rgpk (comment) 15:02, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

The same book provides the desired map: A history of India By Hermann Kulke, Dietmar Rothermund, at p.69. It's pretty clear, that the Mauryas mainly controlled trade routes with vast areas across India being actually independent.--David Fraudly (talk) 16:54, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

At User:David Fraudly, could you define what is Hindiwalla? I would like to know if I am one as per your standards please. ..असक्तः सततं कार्य कर्म समाचर | असक्तः हि आचरन् कर्म.. Humour Thisthat2011 14:48, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

Hindiwalla refers to people with the one nation, one language philosophy. That language being Hindi. Hindiwallas are constantly spreading the blunt lie, that Hindi was the national language of India. Hindiwallas ironically use English media to spread this lie. Hindiwallas are stupid enough to believe, that only Tamils were against Hindi as the national language. Hindiwallas basically think, that India belongs to them, and they run this country alone. This is my definition of the uneducated Hindi nationalist. I'm totally against this philosophy and the notions behind these all and the Indian majority just thinks like me. I don't want to hurt anybody on a personal level, because everyone has freedom of thought. Hindiwalla is just a common term to describe people with this ideology in India.--David Fraudly (talk) 16:54, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

All I can say is that the notion of Hindiwallas is quite contradictory. If you want to discuss it, let me know on my talk page. ..असक्तः सततं कार्य कर्म समाचर | असक्तः हि आचरन् कर्म.. Humour Thisthat2011 17:33, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

Okay, no personal discussions here please, let it be limited to user talk pages. Lynch7 15:54, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

Correct Indus Valley Map

What makes the Indus Valley map correct? It has not been updated with the newer finds. (69.115.82.63 (talk) 16:55, 13 June 2011 (UTC))

What newer findings are you talking about? --David Fraudly (talk) 20:59, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

Indus Valley Civ extends to Alamgirpur in Western Uttar Pradesh which the map does not show. Also Dholavira, Kalibanga, and Rakhigarhi are as large as Lothal, MJ or Harappa which the map fails to show or mark down (other sites as well) as you may find in others encyclopedia maps or google search. (69.115.82.63 (talk) 06:39, 14 June 2011 (UTC))

I think, we should update the map at a certain new level of significant discoveries. There is still lots of new stuff coming out.--David Fraudly (talk) 16:59, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

Colonialism: more content needed

It would be great, if somebody would add 2 sentences how the British got ahead of all other East India Companies, especially in their struggle against the French. Currently it looks like the British were the only colonial power in India.--David Fraudly (talk) 21:42, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

[| Edits] by User:MikeLynch

Hi, this is regarding two lines mentioned in the article on India as follows:

Beginning in the mid-18th century, India was gradually annexed by the British East India Company, along with the French and the Portuguese the during the age of Imperialism.

The other line is:

During the first half of the 20th century, various national and regional campaigns were launched in the colonial India. The subcontinent gained independence from the United Kingdom in 1947, after being partitioned into the dominions of India and Pakistan. On 26 January 1950, India became a republic, and a new constitution came into effect.

The above two lines are much more exhaustive as well as precise and short, in dealing with matter considered. I don't think anyone should have any issue with these. ..असक्तः सततं कार्य कर्म समाचर | असक्तः हि आचरन् कर्म.. Humour Thisthat2011 18:47, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

This is crazy. What part of "why don't you discuss this" is unclear? Apparently, rgpk has reverted the additions for some reason. Lets hear him out and discuss it here. And you revert my edit, saying "see discussion"? What discussion? Lynch7 19:04, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

If I am not mistaken, it is rgpk who reverted my edits without any discussion, then you jumped in when I reverted after explaining. If you have not noticed rgpk's edits, you need to recheck the history without any glasses. ..असक्तः सततं कार्य कर्म समाचर | असक्तः हि आचरन् कर्म.. Humour Thisthat2011 20:23, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

Heard of WP:BRD? This is enough. You please continue the discussion relating to the content. Please do not waste your time or make others waste their time in meaningless discussion. Continue on the content discussion. Lynch7 07:08, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing it out, but I have this understanding that from your side some unrealistic expectations will come which will be thrown around to disrupt the discussion, at the same time not accepting the presented sources as 'reliable'. This is from my experience. ..असक्तः सततं कार्य कर्म समाचर | असक्तः हि आचरन् कर्म.. Humour Thisthat2011 08:34, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

ThisThat, the addition of French and Portuguese is quite unnecessary in this summary article. While they did annex small parts of India, the main point is that India was a British colony (albeit with a few french and portuguese outposts). Details on India's colonial period can always be elaborated on in sub-articles. This article is already way too long and we should be looking for ways to take detail out, not add it in. (The French and Portuguese part doesn't fit with the next sentence, but that's not really the point here.) The same applies to the Independence movement. It was largely lead and orchestrated under the auspices of the INC, so that's what the article should say (I'm not sure why the Muslim League is in there - was it always there?). Details on other national and regional campaigns can always be added in a sub-article. Finally, 'various national and regional campaigns' is way too vague. --rgpk (comment) 19:58, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

I have taken both edits from related articles. If you notice the annexation of India during colonial India, these countries are mentioned explicitly.

As also if you notice the Indian independence movement article, it is very clearly mentioned that the movement was various national and regional campaigns, and then that article details the movements. To say that INC initiated/carried the Indian independence movement alone is in fact factually incorrect, for it is only a part of very numerous number of movements starting from 1867. ..असक्तः सततं कार्य कर्म समाचर | असक्तः हि आचरन् कर्म.. Humour Thisthat2011 20:23, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

I think, the sentence needs lot of tweaks. It looks like, the French and Portuguese were comparable in size with the British. I still think, the current version (wo. Fr and Po) suggests, that the British were the only colonial power. This needs to be showcaste in a proper way. The struggle for independence began much prior to the 20th century. Saying that all began with INC is an insult to thousands of other freedom fighters from the 18th century on (btw. INC was formed in 19th century). The INC and Muslim League became the leaders of the 20th century independence campaign.--David Fraudly (talk) 20:30, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

The French and Portuguese holdings in India were nowhere near the size of British colonial India, which directly or indirectly ruled almost the entire mass of what is now India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, and Burma. Where did you get the idea that they were comparable in size? Also, if I may point out, the term 'gradual annexation', followed by 'colonization' applies only to the British. Finally, modern India is primarily an outcome of its British colonial period. The French and the Portuguese territorial periods had minimal, in any, impact on what is now modern India. I see no reason why this needs mention in a summary article. Once again, our focus should be on removing inconsequential details from this, already overlong, article rather than on adding more of them. About these 'various national and regional campaigns', could you please list the ones that are comparable to the role of the INC in India's independence struggle?--rgpk (comment) 20:03, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

As it is, the [| difference] hardly occupies not more than a line-width for both edits.

The term gradual annexation applies to all the colonial powers because the French, the Portuguese and the British not only annexed their territories but also fought over these at different times. See French annexations ( more even), the Portuguese in India and their wars. The edit from my side is therefore apt. Please let me know which source states that 'annexation applies only to the British' or something similar. Another fact remains still that India gained freedom in 1947, and 565 princely states were united too to form Modern India which is again missing from the page.

The sentence "During the first half of the 20th century, a nationwide struggle for independence was launched by the Indian National Congress and was later joined by the Muslim League" is plain incorrect considering that Independence movement is not just the one perused by INC but a collection of movements consisting of many mutually exclusive/inclusive parallel/crossing movements. To say that INC started it is plain incorrect in substance and fact, please read the article again. The statement that was put forth from my side stands correct as it is more exhaustive and accurate i.e. various national and regional campaigns were launched in the colonial India. We should do away with 20th century notation as the movements begin way back in 1867 onwards as mentioned on Indian independence movement; as also the fact that the First session of Indian National Congress, Bombay, was organized in 28-31, December, 1885. I don't think I need to be any more clear on this one, for we don't need any comparison between independence movements. Many people left INC to start some another movement and many left other movements to join INC. Such a kind of exclusive attitude is not correct at all for this page.

The history of modern India should not be written as a view from some limited sources. I have seen this tendency on the page, since I have signed up, for line-edits with some or other excuses. The article may be long but I am not sure how does it matter much when we are talking about plain text that hardly spends any resource anywhere anytime. ..असक्तः सततं कार्य कर्म समाचर | असक्तः हि आचरन् कर्म.. Humour Thisthat2011 21:03, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

Like I said, the colonial history of India is largely a British colonial history. We can't go on inserting every fact into the main article, that's what sub-articles are for. Please provide examples of 'various national and regional campaigns' that were of equivalent importance to the role of the INC in India's independence struggle. Thanks. --rgpk (comment) 17:00, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

rgpk I think INC came later and did not exist during Indian Rebellion of 1857 which is commonly regarded as India's first attempt to free itself from European rule. I agree British holdings were the biggest but French and Portuguese had some holdings and French sided with many Indian princely states against the British so their influence is greater than that suggested by their small colonies in the subcontinent. Anglo-Sikh wars and Tipu Sultans efforts are also regarded as "freedom struggle" by majority of people. --Wikireader41 (talk) 18:36, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

Wikireader, the indian rebellion of 1857 is not regarded as a nationwide struggle for independence. It was confined mostly to the region around Delhi, western UP, and madhya pradesh and more Indians actively fought on the side of the company than did on the side of the rebels. It is generally accepted that the rebellion started as a mutiny of soldiers who were dissatisfied with the conditions of their service and, perhaps, with English rule in general. It evolved into a struggle to overthrow British rule but, as I point out above, it was never nationwide and cannot necessarily be characterized as a popular struggle. About the INC, it was formed in 1885. Properly considered, the nationwide struggle for Independence started with the partition of Bengal and the Swadeshi movement (led by Tilak and Lala Lajpat Rai, both INC leaders). Our article includes the Indian rebellion of 1857 as resulting from 'dissatisfaction with company rule' which is reasonably representative of what it was. Perhaps the INC role can be changed to "A nationwide struggle for independence, mostly led by the Indian National Congress and later joined by the Muslim League, gained momentum in the first part of the 20th century. The subcontinent gained independence from the United Kingdom in 1947, after being partitioned into the dominions of India and Pakistan. On 26 January 1950...". Since 'launched' is perhaps not the right term. 'Various national and regional campaigns' makes sense only if the INC had not played a pivotal role (for good or for bad) in the process. --rgpk (comment) 19:49, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

I think, we should provide all important events in a history summary. An artificial size limitation shouldn't distort the facts at all. Regarding the colonial history, I think we may cut off the Portuguese and Dutch for their limited achievements, but the French were the main rivals for the British in India and the infights arre presented everywhere and I think we should come up with some solution too. After all, it was the win over the French, which helped the British to rule most Indian territories. Regarding freedom struggles, I think, we should mention, that there were regional uprisings, not for importance reasons, but to present, again, plain facts and essential information from an Indian pov, which shouldn't be sacrificed for size limits. There are other sections in this article, which could be scrapped alltogether, for instance "foreign relations", which maybe more relevant in the Indian politics article, if you ask me.--David Fraudly (talk) 20:04, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

@ rgpk. a freedom struggle does not have to be "nationwide" to be considered a freedom struggle. 1857 war was considered a "freedom struggle" by majority of Indians who at last count represented about a sixth of humanity. In the Indian context India was never a unified single country before the British so the question of a national movement does not arise. Many people tried in their own way to get rid European colonists. eventually INC was able to unite the majority of these independent struggler's into a coherent united voice. people like Bhagat Singh & Lala Lajpat Rai were clearly opposite in their methods to Gandhi but had a part in galvanizing the subcontinent. but a lot of work was done by small groups of people prior to that also. Also the Indian struggle was against colonial rulers whether it was the "company" or the Queen. worldwide too colonialism was "outsourced" to private companies by European governments long before the term outsourced was invented. I do not want to understate the importance of INC to the freedom struggle but to mention just them would be a violation of NPOV.--Wikireader41 (talk) 21:52, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

it is for these reasons, i believe it is just a fantasy to make articles such as India with a "difficult to define" scope a FA. even if we succeed to call it one eventually, it will just be a fallacy because it will merely be the product of the limited knowledge of the few editors who participated in the FA process. --CarTick (talk) 22:32, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

agree. that is why we need more editors on wp knowledgeable about India to counter WP:BIAS. that is why we have crazy article titles like Indian Rebellion of 1857. any chance you think of having an article on American Rebellion of 1775 ??--Wikireader41 (talk) 01:06, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

This is no surprise to me, considering I just signed up this April, 2011. All popular pages in India are written by mostly British, some American, but always foreigners. Example this page India, Ganga, and so on, and of course talk pages eg. "no consensus", RFI, this and onwards continuously eg. pictures!, the whole discussions and discourse is laugh riot of dark humor. There are reasons why many people have left Wikipedia (archives are a good starting point to see this) because of this and why for articles on India we need more because there will always be whole lot of discouragement like this for months on. ..असक्तः सततं कार्य कर्म समाचर | असक्तः हि आचरन् कर्म.. Humour Thisthat2011 07:50, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

This is no place for your personal analysis on the attrition rates of editors. You can write an essay on it in your userspace if you wish. To clear the air, I am Indian, and I partially agree with your view. Lynch7 12:02, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

This is talk page and I am talking from personal experience. This is not main page. It can be seen what a two line edit, which is more accurate relevant exhaustive and referenced, has come to. And it is not because of me by the way, if you notice, it is because it is opposed with excuses in styles particular to this page alone. ..असक्तः सततं कार्य कर्म समाचर | असक्तः हि आचरन् कर्म.. Humour Thisthat2011 13:33, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

Very good. Please continue the content discussion. Lynch7 13:44, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

Thisthat2011 there is no substitute to being patient and gradually increasing the numbers of people who are knowledgeable about Indian history and who don't parrot what is written in western RS about Indian history. It is a particularly painful reality for many Britishers that the food that they eat today has been stolen from so called "third world" countries by their government and ancestors. Ergo we get efforts to "whitewash" and present British history in the brightest light possible. In addition many westerners still think of polytheist Hindus as pagans who need to be "saved". Racism in the west is dying an equally slow death as Casteism in India though both are illegal. I am afraid the articles on Topics like this will always be biased IMO representing the biases of the editors working on them at any given time. you might find WP:CSB interesting. For every Indian nationalist I have seen on WP I have seen twice as many Racists & Colonialism sympathizers--Wikireader41 (talk) 15:54, 18 June 2011 (UTC).

(od) The Indian rebellion vs First war of independence issue has been discussed ad nauseam on the Indian rebellion discussion page. Even Indian historians don't characterize it as a war of independence. Also, once again, it would be nice if someone would actually provide examples of 'national and regional movements' that were anywhere near the role of the INC in India's independence struggle. We could hardly, for example, say "led by the INC and the INA", not comparable in scope whatsoever. Nor could we say, "led by the INC and the RSS," now could we? Failing an alternative, "various national and regional movements" is mere whitewashing. Finally, it would be much preferable to confine the discussion to content rather than to the motivation of editors, general comments about racism, or discussions about the national origins of other editors. Such attempts are usually the last recourse of editors who have no sources but prefer to hammer at the opposition with personal invective. I thought you all were better than that (in all but one case above, that is). --rgpk (comment) 21:35, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

Is the exception named above in the last line refer to me? Because I am amongst the guys who have been giving references here, not making unsubstantiated claims like 'Independence movements started in late 20th century led by INC', 'Indian rebellions', 'Colonial Indian History is only about the British annexation' and so on, as also the previous discussions mentioned here.

In an article edited and moderated by people who don't even acknowledge that 'Bharat' is another English name(??, and ignore presented references for one full month including in RFC here "no consensus" and here RFI) of India to begin with, it is not entirely novel that two lines of edits are going to be debated without any links/sources given from the other side at all, while references presented by the other side are not even acknowledged. ..असक्तः सततं कार्य कर्म समाचर | असक्तः हि आचरन् कर्म.. Humour Thisthat2011 08:16, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

We should not go on confusing the INC of that time with the INC of today. Though both share the same name, they are completely different in most other aspects. Most historians and textbooks state the INC's greater role in the independence movement. Just generalising it to "national and regional movements" is understating the INC's role. Any mention of the independence movement would be incomplete without the mention of the INC and Gandhi. Lynch7 03:21, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

Really rgpk. here is what the largest political party in the worlds largest democracy has to say [1][2]. Communists seem to agree with them also.[3] Yes the party is the same INC whose mention you wanted in the lede and which has ruled the country for majority of time since independence. a little WP:DUE weight would be nice. Like I said INC had a major role but was not the sole party. It was not even established till 1885. are we trying to imply that Indians were happy and fortunate to have British colonize them and only in the 1880s started to fight for their independence ?? another tome on indian independednce movement might be of interest.[4],[www.njactt.org/files/indias_first_war_of_independence_for_liberation.doc]--Wikireader41 (talk) 03:47, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

Well, I kinda agree with Wikireader41. I think it is better to mention one other major group involved; probably the "moderates" like Tilak and his group, who had disagreements with Gandhi, or maybe elements of the Home Rule League. But one point of importance is that the movements gained momentum after the INC got involved, and before that, the movements were somewhat localised. Lynch7 05:52, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

MikeLynch, Tilak (as well as Lajpat Rai) were members of the INC. I can't think of a single major movement that was not in some way connected with the INC. The Indian National Army comes the closest, but its impact and existence were both small in comparison. Wikireader, no one is saying that Indians were toasting British rule with champagne every night prior to the Swadeshi movement or that the Indians welcomed British rule! But, it is useful to put things in perspective. The anglo-sikh wars, for example, were fought by the Sikhs against being ruled by the British but the Sikhs turned around and fought on the side of the British a mere seven years later, indicating that there was no 'movement' for independence in India. The various desires for Independence didn't gel until the early twentieth century, and from that point on, the INC was the main leader of the movement. If there is a general feeling that the rebellion needs to be highlighted more, may I suggest "Dissatisfaction with English rule, a mutiny by Company soldiers led to a general rebellion against British rule in 1857 in large swathes of Northern India after which India was directly administered by the British Crown." And, for the INC part, once again I suggest replacing launched with led, or even "mostly led by". --rgpk (comment) 01:05, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

The current discourse with statements like 'Indian Independence movment' started in early 20th century, led by INC and 'joined' by Muslim league' is incorrect.

I would suggest something on the lines 'various nationwide and regionwide independence movements were launched, most notably 1875 war of Independence, ... so as to consider role of freedom fighters exhaustively.

Considering the length of [|History of USA], this looks like a peanut to me. There should not be a size constraint the way it is done now.

Interrupting for every line of edit should also be avoided. ..असक्तः सततं कार्य कर्म समाचर | असक्तः हि आचरन् कर्म.. Humour Thisthat2011 08:16, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

If you consider meaningful discussion as "disruption", there is little that can be done. Of course, Indian independence movement started before the beginning of the 20th century, 1857 is a good example (irrespective of what you call the 1857 uprising). There seems to be little doubt that INC spearheaded the independence movement, along with the Muslim League. Other members like the Hindu Mahasabha and INA were involved, but to a lesser extent. I would suggest a mention of many of the parties involved, but it is to be made clear that the INC along with the Muslim League was at the forefront. Lynch7 08:37, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

Let us examine references presented from the other side, which is none. Opposing something without presenting any sources can hardly be called discussion, more likely an attitude of judging instead of discussion.

As a side-note, the Muslim League's history in Indian independence movements began no earlier than in 1930s. ..असक्तः सततं कार्य कर्म समाचर | असक्तः हि आचरन् कर्म.. Humour Thisthat2011 10:54, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

I think your suggestion should be accepted.--David Fraudly (talk) 10:00, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

@ rgpk the key thing here is what constitutes "India" and what comes within the domain of "Indian freedom Struggle". was the Sikh Empire a part of India ? can the Anglo-Sikh wars be considered part of "Indian Freedom struggle" ??. Most Indians would answer a resounding yes to both those questions. that the Sikhs fought with the British a few years later is because they did not want to go back to Mughal rule which is the strategic blunder the freedom fighters made in 1857 when they declared Bahadur Shah II the emperor. To imagine that Sikhs were OK with British rule ( at any point in time) is gross twisting of history. I agree that INC played a major rule in the twentieth century and we could use "led by" to describe that. but by no means were they the only ones. Vinayak Damodar Savarkar was clearly not INC and most Indians would take offense to him not being called a "freedom fighter". Indians perceived Christian White Europeans as very different from themselves and resisted them from the beginning. However the myriad independent rulers and states which British successfully played off against each other did not unite against the British/Portuguese/French till 20th century. One of the major reasons why the name "first war of independence" is controversial in India is because people think the movement in their own neighborhood ( eg Punjab) was the "first war of independence". Nobody in a billion strong India thinks mutiny is a correct word to describe 1857. I suspect Chinese would agree too ;)--Wikireader41 (talk) 21:35, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

Wikireader, you're misstating my position. Whether the Sikhs were OK or not with British rule is not the point (and is unanswerable at this time in any case) and I'm not even commenting on that. The point is that, for most historians, India's freedom struggle begins with the Swadeshi movement. All historians believe that the Indian rebellion of 1857 started as a mutiny of sepoys, not as an independence movement and that the rebellion then expanded to non-sepoy armies (armies raised by various princes) and that large swathes of India were both unaffected as well as unconcerned with it. Those are the facts. The rest is interpretation and while these interpretations of historians vary along a the continuum ranging from 'simple mutiny' to 'war of independence', very few lie on the 'independence' end. I must say that I am surprised that you include the Anglo-Sikh wars as a part of the independence struggle. That view is particularly outré considering that the Punjab was an independent entity that fought the British during the wars, the Sikh empires territorial ambitions were limited to north-west India and present day Afghanistan, and, not the least because that is certainly not how history is taught in India. Presenting India's independence struggle as a continuous struggle from the 1840s onward may be a nice feel good exercise but is a perversion of history that does no one any good. --rgpk (comment) 17:08, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

@rgpk well like I said that different regional forces were fighting the British and constituted "Indian freedom movement" ( no India as a unified entity existed prior to that) and these regions were part of what became India. Since INC considers 1857 the "first war of independence" and represents a huge chunk of humanity would make me say that this is the dominant view. what a few ( mostly british) authors wrote about a "mutiny" in history books (which nobody buys or reads) is a WP:FRINGE view which even most Britishers dont believe in nowadays. I did learn history in India so when you say this is not the way history is taught in India could you please tell me where you got that idea. you might want to write to the Indian govt per WP:TRUTH and remind them that the freedom struggle started with Swadeshi movement because they seem to be spreading misinformation on their official websites[5] the struggle by various Indian states and provinces against British may not have been continuous, synchronous or coordinated but they are considered bona fide part of Indian freedom struggle at least in the country where 1/6 humanity lives. --Wikireader41 (talk) 00:31, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

It would be quite wrong to say that before the 1900s, the fight was for "Independence" as such. No doubt that there were localised movements, and nothing on a national scale. But one point is that many people in India were not fighting for complete independence, or Swaraj. Indeed, a prominent group (whom History textbooks now call Moderates) wanted a Dominion status for India. This is different from complete Swaraj. Just because a king fought the British (for ex: Tipu Sultan), it does not mean that he was fighting for Indian Independence. When rgpk says that the actual Independence movement started from the Swadeshi movement, he is right for the most part. And btw, the 1857 uprising is still widely seen as a mutiny (yes, in Indian textbooks), and I don't think there's anything wrong in characterising it as such. Lynch7 06:22, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not in the business of writing history or correcting reporting errors and rightly so, we go by what reliable sources, and in this particular case that consists of the wealth of scholarly studies and literature. They report the aspects of these many wars, battles and movements against the British or EIC in a certain manner, and we ought to just report that. —SpacemanSpiff 13:37, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

I am sure the discussion has sources presented by many, if noticed. As usual, there is no sources presented by the other side and the reason for reversing edits is only because 'there is no consensus', the behavior repeated as pointed out. ..असक्तः सततं कार्य कर्म समाचर | असक्तः हि आचरन् कर्म.. Humour Thisthat2011 14:42, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

Where are the sources to be provided for backing up claims, from User:SpacemanSpiff, User:MikeLynch and User:RegentsPark? ..असक्तः सततं कार्य कर्म समाचर | असक्तः हि आचरन् कर्म.. Humour Thisthat2011 15:07, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

You seem not to have read the discussion completely, and above that, you seem to be prejudiced. If you'd notice your mentions in the DR noticeboards, and in previous discussions here, it is your behaviour which needs notice. That aside, if you'd notice, we were talking about points. The sources for those are not hard to find (I think that's why no one bothered to mention them). If some conclusion is reached here, then we could probably whip in some sources. Lynch7 11:20, 25 June 2011 (UTC)

I am sure the discussion will be much clearer with sources presented earlier rather than later. In no way requiring sources for claims can amount to prejudice. As per the discussion, the same points are repeated again and again, for which User:Wikireader41 has already replied 'a freedom struggle does not have to be "nationwide" to be considered a freedom struggle' which is missed out apparently. Please mention the sources that are available so that the discussion can move ahead rather than conditional presentation of sources depending upon some conclusions. If you have missed the word 'please', it is a request. ..असक्तः सततं कार्य कर्म समाचर | असक्तः हि आचरन् कर्म.. Humour Thisthat2011 10:06, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

It is about 2 weeks since last post above. Please present sources so the discussion can move ahead instead of being halted on 'no consensus'. ..असक्तः सततं कार्य कर्म समाचर | असक्तः हि आचरन् कर्म.. Humour Thisthat2011 16:58, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

What exactly do you want to see sourced? The current version appears well sourced to me. --rgpk (comment) 18:27, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

Please read the discussion before commenting. The sources are needed for clarity as requested earlier, regarding edits that were reverted. I think this is another instance when a knight in a shining armor will come out presenting sources, cornering all glory, so that discussion can move on from this. ..असक्तः सततं कार्य कर्म समाचर | असक्तः हि आचरन् कर्म.. Humour Thisthat2011 18:32, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

Oh trust me, this is exactly the kind of useless talk that is leading us nowhere. Anyway, i've put in the sources for whatever I have said. Anyway, whatever I've said is based on these books:Together with History and Civics. Rachna Sagar Pvt. Ltd. 2007. ISBN 81-8137-037-6.; Sen, S.N. (2006). History Modern India. New Age International.; Sengupta, Sudeshna. ICSE History and Civics. Ratna Sagar.; History and Civics. Goyal Brothers. 2005.. Lynch7 19:00, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for replying with sources. ..असक्तः सततं कार्य कर्म समाचर | असक्तः हि आचरन् कर्म.. Humour Thisthat2011 14:50, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

I would like to ask Mike Lynch and RGPK where the Idea that a freedom struggle needs to involve the entire country in order to be considered a freedom movement ??? is this an original thought or do some RS say this as well. my next question is why then will it be Ok to call American Revolutionary War the American war of independence when clearly Texas and California (and for that matter majority of modern day US. see Thirteen Colonies who were involved in this "independence battle" and pay attention to what percentage of US they represented.) had no role in it.--Wikireader41 (talk) 17:31, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

History section needs info on:

1. Tripartite Struggle between the Rashtrakuta Empire, Pala Empire, Pratihara
2. The bulk-ward against the Islamic resulted in the emergence of Vijayanagara Empire, Gajapati Kingdom, and Rajput States. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.115.82.63 (talk) 11:55, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

Could you elaborate please? ..असक्तः सततं कार्य कर्म समाचर | असक्तः हि आचरन् कर्म.. Humour Thisthat2011 20:12, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

Featured Article Review

I don't want to be pushy or anything, but the FAR hasn't gotten any attention for some time now. I don't want to see this article be demoted, it is one of the oldest featured articles on Wikipedia! Clay^Clay_Clay 21:44, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

I'm returning home on Tuesday July 6. Will address the remaining unaddressed issues soon thereafter. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 19:17, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

effected->affected

under heading Modern India effected->affected

Since the 1990s terrorist attacks have effected many Indian cities. -> Since the 1990s terrorist attacks have affected many Indian cities. Bananarama123 (talk) 02:56, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

 Done —Abhishek ^{Talk to me} 03:12, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

cintu

What is uncertain about the reliability of it? The Journal is widely respected--Malaikaran (talk) 15:31, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

Uncertain simply means that the reliability (of the information added) has to be established before you can add it. You need to demonstrate that the statement you've added has general acceptability. Best to do that on the talk page before we change the article. (BTW, the reference appears to be to proceedings of a conference, not a journal.) --rgpk (comment) 21:54, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

I didn't add it. I only know from gbooks, that Southworth and Krishnamurthy have reviewed cintu. They are leading Dravidologists. I have no clue, what's written in this proceeding's paper.--Malaikaran (talk) 22:40, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

Actually this is an encyclopedia that anyone can edit so no harm adding stuff as long as we discuss per WP:BRD which seems to be happening now. The source looks reliable to me and will likely pass WP:RS and we should add it if it passes other tests. Zuggernaut (talk) 06:57, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

Here's a link with more books, "http://www.google.co.uk/search?client=opera&rls=en&q=cintu+date+palm+dravidian&sourceid=opera&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&channel=suggest#sclient=psy&hl=en&safe=off&client=opera&rls=en&channel=suggest&tbm=bks&source=hp&q=cintu++dravidian+date+palm&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=98152dda829f0c08&biw=1039&bih=564".

Journal from the Cambridge press http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=20&ved=0CFwQFjAJOAo&url=http%3A%2F%2Fjournals.cambridge.org%2Fproduction%2Faction%2FcjoGetFulltext%3Ffulltextid%3D3827008&ei=r3sTTva4CYS7hAeB6MHUDQ&usg=AFQjCNH47B1-_AjjKkcWyW6dcImVtZsD6w

Those are all the references I can find on the net, sorry! ________________________________________________________________________________________ Why is a paper from the "First International Seminar on Dravidian Linguistics and the Fourteenth All India Conference of Dravidian Linguistics" authorised by the Indian government not acceptable as reliable?, the clue is in the name. oh well...

--Avedeus (talk) 21:10, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

Conference proceedings are often not peer reviewed and, even if they are, are often not given the same level of scrutiny as journal articles. Note also that the editor who added the citation says that he/she has no clue what the article contains, not a particularly reassuring statement. The first just says that a meaning of cintu is 'date palm' (not particularly useful) and the second seems to be an article on linguistics rather than an article about the etymology of India. If valid, and I have no opinion on this, the claim should be easy to reliably source. --rgpk (comment) 22:00, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

Are you being serious or joking?, that is precisely the point some linguists are trying to make that cintu originally meant date palm, but gave rise to the word Cintu==>Sindhu-->Hind-->Indus; LEXICAL CHANGE DOES NOT HAVE TO RETAIN ITS SEMANTIC FIELD. For example, in English, the word 'gay' means homosexual, it used to mean 'happy'; my point - meaning can change over time due to various political, social or cultural reasons.

Oh well, I give up, people hear what they want to hear. The fact that you are not even considering such a possibility after two credible sources (above) relate India and cintu. Besides, people in South Asian linguistics are well aware of this, excuse me for trying to bring it on Wikipedia. --Avedeus (talk) 16:05, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

that is precisely the point some linguists are trying to make that Once the point has been made, and accepted by historians as evidenced by reliable sources, it can be added to the article. Meanwhile, if I may suggest, discussions about new semantic interpretations are better conducted in peer reviewed academic venues rather than on an encyclopedia. --rgpk (comment) 16:19, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

For the last time: I didn't add the citation. Please go check the article's history.--Malaikaran (talk) 22:08, 5 July 2011 (UTC) btw, I see two books out of the books, who claim a connection to India/Indus. Maybe it should be addressed, that is a possibiliity rather than a fact.--Malaikaran (talk) 22:13, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

The source given simply says that the term for "date palm" in Gondi is sindi, hindi. Nobody suggested, or in their right mind would ever suggest, that this has anything whatsoever to do with the name Sindhu or Hindi. These are just random sound-alikes. The sources cited may be "reliable", but that doesn't help much if they are used to "reference" statements which have nothing to do with what is in them. Really. Please do not add blatant nonsense to Wikipedia articles. It will just annoy people and help nobody, including you. --dab (𒁳) 09:05, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

SO you are saying that the words Sindhu and Hindi have not been derived from sindi and hindi, wow(!) Besides atleast two of the above sources directly relate India to cintu - therefore should atleast be given as a 'possibility'. How are you going to make a neutral article, if you just shove off other POVs?--Avedeus (talk) 16:05, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

Unless western peer reviewed academics do not see how "the words Sindhu and Hindi have not been derived from sindi and hindi", it won't be included in Wikipedia and would be called random 'sound-alikes'(though people have made career out of this in western academics), etc. There are exceptions to the rule though, for example Aryan Invasion Theory was told around by peer reviewed academics for hundreds of years but it was later rejected. So that's my 2 coins on this. ..असक्तः सततं कार्य कर्म समाचर | असक्तः हि आचरन् कर्म.. Humour Thisthat2011 13:54, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

you haven't even shown that anyone ever suggested these Gondi words have anything to do with the name sindhu. As long as you don't do that, there isn't even a debate on this. This is just something you made up on your own, because of your lack of understanding of chronology. There is no way a Gondi word was loaned into the Rigveda. If sindhu was a Dravidian loan, it would need to be from a Dravidian /sindhu/, not from a Dravidian /ci:ntu/, which in one Dravidian language somehow became /si:ndu/ (not /sindhu/) a couple of millennia later. India is not called "Cintia", so there is really no point in debating this further. --dab (𒁳) 17:06, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

BRICS

BRICs are 4 and not 5 (located at the end of the introduction to the article)

South Africa was added recently.--Malaikaran (talk) 10:04, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

Millitary

Add more info on Indian Army, Navy and Air Force — Preceding unsigned comment added by Maitrikvora21 (talk • contribs) 07:58, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

[| Edit] by User:Fowler&fowler - Golden age of India

Hi,

The substance is [| well referenced already], and [Ramesh Chandra Majumdar] & [| Anant Sadashiv Altekar] are both well known authors on Indian History.

This matter

in the period regarded as the Golden Age of India.

is therefore well referenced and should stay on the page, and should not be dropped. I would like User:Fowler&fowler to throw some light on mentioned modern historians on India, who reject this, as well.

More references for the same: 1, 2, 3. ..असक्तः सततं कार्य कर्म समाचर | असक्तः हि आचरन् कर्म.. Humour Thisthat2011 14:48, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

Save your strength

Thisthat we can wake someone who is sleeping but not kupamandukas who pretend sleep, don't waste your energy. Conserve it. Yogesh Khandke (talk) 15:33, 7 July 2011 (UTC) PS: Section titles look ugly with links in them.Yogesh Khandke (talk) 15:34, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

Okay, though I would like to discuss this atleast on talk pages and see what happens. I have some experience dealing with 'no consensus' first hand here on sources. So I would like to know more about these sources. ..असक्तः सततं कार्य कर्म समाचर | असक्तः हि आचरन् कर्म.. Humour Thisthat2011 15:40, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

Please translate your signature subhashit. Yogesh Khandke (talk) 15:44, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

Replied on your talk page. ..असक्तः सततं कार्य कर्म समाचर | असक्तः हि आचरन् कर्म.. Humour Thisthat2011 16:22, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

Reply

Well I am using this place because the discussion [6] is pertinent.

1. You are right that there are many anti-Hindu sites on the web, but there are anti-other religion sites, so that isn't Wikipedia's fault.
2. It is true that white-Christian globally have a certain view about other religions and cultures, that view is carrying great weight as white-Christian culture predominates,[7], Standards, Selectivity and western domination but that too isn't Wikipedia's fault.
3. That was in general, now regarding two closely related articles India and Ganga, which see friction, you see monkeys are fighting and the old fat cat smiles and he slyly eats the cake, for example India that is Bharat, or the name Ganga, these pages are at the mercy of a few kupamandukas who have fast internet connections, come from a affluent economies that have shorter weeks, so they have the leisure; and so we have scientific facts like water quality juxtaposed against belief; does Wikipedia juxtapose virgin birth against parthenogenesis, or other such beliefs? So we have Ganga at the mercy of kupamandukas who argue that it sounds like ganja to them, with little understanding of wp:UNDUE, the same with child marriage, or even pollution or corruption and culture with the Ganga Action Plan as reasons for its failure, you see a few cents were spent per person per year on the plan, but Wikipedia informs that the Ganga Action Plan failed because Hindus are perverts.
4. Luckily Wikipedia isn't like academia, (See Rajiv Malhotra and the Peer review racket) and it offers a reasonably level playing field, we need editors with good knowledge of Wikipedia and the ability to apply it well, till then it is like banging your head against a wall. Please don't. Bide your time, this wall will fall too, but we need a critical mass first.Yogesh Khandke (talk) 04:14, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

I have to add South Asia to the list of perversions here, you see the name India was so popular that even when Columbus reached a land which was almost antipodal to India yet he called it and its inhabitants India/Indian, and here we have ignoramuses who have an antipathy for the name. Yogesh Khandke (talk) 04:26, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

well maybe there are some editors who feel that "Golden age" was rightfully the British Raj when the Pagans and Polytheists were enlightened and the The White Man's Burden was fulfilled ;). agree though WP:BIAS issues will persist till 1/6 WP english editors are from India ( which is the proportion of humanity which is Indian). we still have a long way to go. but WP:CSB does make interesting reading.--Wikireader41 (talk) 17:08, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

About Religions in the introduction

I find the line quoted below to be a bit misleading. It conveys the idea that the present day Indian culture is cleansed of Indian originated religions, and that Zoroastrianism, Christianity and Islam played the important roles in shaping the culture. Almost every major religion in the world has arrived in India not long after it was founded including Judaism and Bahai faiths. I personally think undue importance is given to the arrived religions in the introductory part as distinctiveness of Indian culture is well contributed by the Indian originated religions. I am not able to make any edits since the page is locked. I request people with those privileges to look into the matter.

"Four of the world's major religions—Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism and Sikhism—originated here, while Zoroastrianism, Christianity and Islam arrived in the first millennium CE and shaped the region's diverse culture.[14]" 209.239.114.70 (talk) 02:43, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

Well I added the suggested changes but the edits were reverted without discussing anything here to incorporate changes and requiring more sources, etc. thus letting it be and look like indigenous religions have done nothing to add to distinctiveness of the culture, which was the main point. ..असक्तः सततं कार्य कर्म समाचर | असक्तः हि आचरन् कर्म.. Humour Thisthat2011 13:29, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

Do forgive me for reverting, but we all went to a lot of trouble with this sentence, starting around Talk:India/Archive 30 I believe. I see your and the IP's issue, although the same implication did not come through to me. Would it be fixed if the word "shaped" was preceded by a word such as "helped" or "further"? Chipmunkdavis (talk) 14:36, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

I think 'helped' was there originally and am not sure when it got removed. An alternative formulation: Four of the world's major religions—Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism and Sikhism—originated here, while Zoroastrianism, Christianity and Islam arrived in the first millennium CE and are also a part of the region's diverse culture? --rgpk (comment) 14:40, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

May be something on the lines - The region's diverse culture is shaped by Four of the world's major religions—Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism and Sikhism- originating from here as also by Zoroastrianism, Christianity and Islam arriving in the first millennium CE.

Just suggesting ..असक्तः सततं कार्य कर्म समाचर | असक्तः हि आचरन् कर्म.. Humour Thisthat2011 15:28, 8 July 2011 (UTC)