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::--[[User:Ancheta Wis|Ancheta Wis]] [[User talk:Ancheta Wis|   (talk]] [[Special:Contributions/Ancheta Wis| | contribs)]] 17:23, 23 April 2012 (UTC)
::--[[User:Ancheta Wis|Ancheta Wis]] [[User talk:Ancheta Wis|   (talk]] [[Special:Contributions/Ancheta Wis| | contribs)]] 17:23, 23 April 2012 (UTC)
::I checked out the local copy of the translated & annotated ''Quod nihil scitur'' (that nothing is known); there are some terrific passages in it: "elegant language is for rhetoricans, poets, courtiers, lovers, harlots, pimps, flatterers, parasites, & other people of that sort, ..., but for scientific language, accuracy suffices. " The annotator notes that Sanches was a physician who had enough of Galen & Aristotelianism and was determined to refute them. So his medical background had a formative influence on modus sciendi (method of knowing) . He promised to write a how-to book. Apparently his how-to book was never published, as he later became professor of medicine in Toulouse & apparently lost the time to write it. But his book ''That nothing is known'' ends with his trademark: "QUID?" (What?!) --[[User:Ancheta Wis|Ancheta Wis]] [[User talk:Ancheta Wis|   (talk]] [[Special:Contributions/Ancheta Wis| | contribs)]] 12:48, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
::I checked out the local copy of the translated & annotated ''Quod nihil scitur'' (that nothing is known); there are some terrific passages in it: "elegant language is for rhetoricans, poets, courtiers, lovers, harlots, pimps, flatterers, parasites, & other people of that sort, ..., but for scientific language, accuracy suffices. " The annotator notes that Sanches was a physician who had enough of Galen & Aristotelianism and was determined to refute them. So his medical background had a formative influence on modus sciendi (method of knowing) . He promised to write a how-to book. Apparently his how-to book was never published, as he later became professor of medicine in Toulouse & apparently lost the time to write it. But his book ''That nothing is known'' ends with his trademark: "QUID?" (What?!) --[[User:Ancheta Wis|Ancheta Wis]] [[User talk:Ancheta Wis|   (talk]] [[Special:Contributions/Ancheta Wis| | contribs)]] 12:48, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

It's looking more and more as if Sanches deserves a highly honourable mention in both the scientific method article and the 'History of' article. Since the success of science is its method, and the method as we understand it today was the fruit of this late C16th epistemological shift from apriorism to empiricism boosted by the sceptic revival, Sanches, because he not only reflected the change but actively pointed the way forward much earlier than Bacon, should surely be remembered.[[User:Pertin1x|Pertin1x]] ([[User talk:Pertin1x|talk]]) 21:30, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

(By the by, I'm very curious about the Guyenne/Toulouse connection of the two great early uptakers of scepticism, Sanches and Montaigne.)[[User:Pertin1x|Pertin1x]] ([[User talk:Pertin1x|talk]]) 21:30, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

Okay I've found my Popkin:
:"Since, as he had shown, nothing can be known, Sanches put forward a procedure, not to gain knowledge but to deal constructively with human experience. This procedure, for which Sanches introduced the term (for the first time) ''scientific method'', "Método universal de las ciencias," consists in patient, careful empirical research and cautious judgment and evaluation of the data we observe" (Hist of Scepticism from Savonarola to Bayle, Oxford 2003 p.41)
[[User:Pertin1x|Pertin1x]] ([[User talk:Pertin1x|talk]]) 20:55, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

Revision as of 20:56, 27 April 2012

Template:Outline of knowledge coverage


The

(Please don't archive this section: it is a resurrecting issue, and a permanent pointer to discussion is useful)

Shouldn't this article begin with a The? Has this debate already been had? Isn't it, "The Scientific method is a body of techniques..." Mathiastck 06:58, 8 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, right at the top of Archive 11, there is debate on the definite article The. --Ancheta Wis 08:17, 8 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Ok well I vote to include "The" next time :) Mathiastck 18:12, 12 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
There is/are "Scientific Method(s)/Process(es)", and then there is "The Scientific Method" - a more general, abstract model: Observation, Hypothesis, Experiment (repeat): this is "The Scientific Method"...it is more of a philosophical model than a process, as the body to which "Scientific Method" can/does refer(s). Am I right in thinking lack of "the" grammatically puts this method in way similar to the term "kung-fu" which is used without "the". For example, one does not say, "he used the kung fu on me!" I think journal citations showing use of "scientific method" minus the definite article "the" will be shown to be typos. One might see if there is a correlation in typo articles and authors of native asian (especially Japanese) toungue. It is known that the definte article is not used similarly in these asian languages as it is in english, and that new or late-comers to English may publish with this typo. Living and working in Berkeley, I have much experience with non-native English speakers of all types and feel the lack of definite article may in fact stem from native asian speaking individuals both authors and editors...unless of course the spirit of english wishes to refer to the scientific method as we do the kung fu. That does sound cool. 76.102.47.125 (talk) 00:51, 17 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Observation, Hypothesis and Experiment are the three primary and fundamental concepts in all methods of science. Experiment: Search the internet for "observation hypothesis experiment". Observation: the majority of results are for "the Scientific Method". Hypothesis: I have just used the scientific method. 71.156.103.213 (talk) 22:10, 10 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

At the outset of the discussion about this issue, User:Wjbeaty pointed out some of the published current discussion in the field per WP:VER and WP:RS. He said: "Many scientists object to ... the very concept The Scientific Method, and they fight to get it removed from grade-school textbooks. Examples:

Experience has taught that scientific method should be viewed as a cluster of techniques or body of techniques. When diagrammed it might look something like a sunflower with an identifiable core with a bunch of petals representing various fields of science. Add or remove a few petals, and it still looks like a sunflower. Kenosis 19:23, 12 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

[Is this the same P. Bridgman who suggested we might see revolutions such as Einstein's relativity earlier if we changed our scientific method: if we payed closer attention to the operations used in measuring (or observing) a phenomenon: if we add operational to the objective and natural requirements of a definition? Bridgman is referring, in the article above, to philosophies of science (IMO), not methodology - on which he has written books and many papers. Geologist (talk) 01:53, 2 February 2008 (UTC)][reply]
My modest opinion: I disagree on "The". A laboratory experiment, a computer simulation, a theoretical model: all may be scientific but are far from using a unique and univocal method. One thing is to single out a body of criteria in order to define if a method of inquiry is scientific, and another is to say that there is only one such method. Also (but I might be wrong), I think there is an implicit usage in Wikipedia so as to use "The..." in reference to a book or a specific theory (e.g. "interpretation of dreams" and "The Interpretation of Dreams"). -- Typewritten 08:21, 29 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
"Experience has taught that scientific method should be viewed as a cluster of techniques"

If this article is about a collection of methods, then the title should be Scientific methods. indil (talk) 02:18, 29 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

A redirect already exists. I personally oppose a page move. This article is referenced by thousands of other articles already, under its current title, and is well-known under its current name. A google search shows that the current title is referenced over 4 times more frequently than the plural. --Ancheta Wis (talk) 11:04, 29 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This is absurd. The rhythm method isn't specific either: some people use calendars, some people count days, others guess. We still follow correct English grammar. I am WP:BRDing. MilesAgain (talk) 16:47, 22 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

OK, I have done the R so D rather more than you did. This is not an issue of grammar as either is OK from that respect. It is a fundamental question and the balance is on not have the "The" there. --Bduke (talk) 22:18, 22 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I've changed it to "Scientific method refers to the body of techniques..."; perhaps this is a satisfactory solution? Andareed (talk) 23:39, 22 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Yes; good. MilesAgain (talk) 12:50, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I have looked at the Richard Feynman link given above. He does not use the phrase Scientific Mathod", and far from arguing that it should be removed from grade school textbooks, he seems to be arguing strongly that it should be taught. Rjm at sleepers (talk) 08:47, 19 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm confused. None of those pages seem to insinuate that the problem is the article "the". They seem to contest the idea of the scientific method itself. Then again, I'm very tired, and not at all that attentive to begin with.  Aar  ►  09:30, 3 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    The best discussion on 'the' that I have seen comes from Mark Twain. One could argue this is all a fine point for those who think in English. There are languages that get along without a 'the', after all. But there is a part of English, the subjunctive mood, which is a good basis for the hypothesis and prediction steps of scientific method, and without which I believe it is hard to explain scientific method. --Ancheta Wis (talk) 20:04, 5 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • It is an issue of grammar. In titles, the article is commonly and correctly used to refer to a body or cluster of similar things: The Elements of Style; The Working Dog; The Racing Motorcycle; The Successful Investor. "Elements of Style" could be okay because "elements" is plural, but neither "Working Dog" nor "Racing Motorcycle" are suitable titles. Likewise, "Scientific Methods" would be fine. But both "Scientific Method" and "Successful Investor" are awkward and off-putting to native English speakers.````KellyArt 11:07, 15 June 2011 (UTC)
I'm a native English-speaker and it doesn't put me off. "Scientific method" in singular form sans expected article seems like a mass noun. The Tetrast (talk) 05:39, 15 June 2011 (UTC).[reply]

quick question

does the scientific method address the existence of god? does it deal with god, at all? i didnt think so but maybe i misunderstood. 76.21.178.151 (talk) 00:58, 17 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

No it does not. The question of the existence of god is untestable in principle. The scientific method is not for questions like 'What is the meaning of this work of artr', or 'Which moral code is more moral; the Eightfold path of Buddhism, the Ten Commandments, or Kant's Categorical Imperative?' Even if two people had the same experience of witnessing a being appear before them and state that "I am god," they STILL would not be able to conduct a test of the matter, as the meaning of "I" and the meaning of "am" and the meaning of "god" and the meaning of the image appearing before them could always still be questioned further. Science is not about the meaning of things, as that is an interpretation of the facts. Science is about actual facts themselves.
The question of the existence of god is a metaphysical one, and as such is unanswerable for sure. Anyone claiming to KNOW the answer is being intellectually dishonest, as all they can honestly say is that they BELIEVE the answer. Metaphysical questions such as "what is the meaning of life?" and "do we have free will?" are metaphysical ones, not scientific. Greg Bard (talk) 01:13, 17 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The question is currently tabooed. Some of our greatest scientists have been religious, and their beliefs directly affected their approach to scientific method. For example, Alhazen's humility before God led him directly to his acceptance of human error, and to his resolve to rectify error by arriving at the truth. In my opinion this was courageous of Alhazen, who even performed dissections to get to the truth. How many others would go to such lengths? --Ancheta Wis (talk) 01:53, 17 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Calling it "tabooed" is not exactly very appropriate because it implies that it's some social convention among scientists. It's not. Is it "taboo" to place round pegs in square holes? Not really, it's is just an inappropriate use of the tools at hand. What inspires scientists to their activities, and what determines the subject matter of their experiments are two totally different matters. No one begrudges a religious scientist who, for instance, studies birds because they were inspired by doves symbolizing peace. However, their methods had better not rely on any presumptions that doves are inherently connected to the abstract concept of peace... or they are not a real scientist. Greg Bard (talk) 02:15, 17 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Supernatural beings or supernatural phenomenons; specifically God, are not inherently excluded from the scientific method. But a technology capable of detecting and verifying the existence of God, directly or indirectly, has not yet been invented. Another example is that of ‘String Theory’, (I am referring to any of the numerous theories based on string particles.) Although a great deal of elegant mathematical study has been done on the behavior of strings; our most advanced method of detecting new particles, the particle accelerator, is not capable of detecting them. And as I understand it, a particle accelerator can never be powerful enough to detect them. So a new technology must be invented to detect and verify the existence of strings. Because we cannot detect strings, scientist who favor String Theory, find themselves in a similar predicament as those who would scientifically verify the existence of God. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Euphoreus (talkcontribs) 04:16, 9 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Data driven discovery

I think this article needs more information the emerging process of Data driven discovery. I may do this some time, but thought I would note it here first, in case it inspires other editors. --Oceans and oceans (talk) 02:58, 2 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I've just created the stub article Data driven science perhaps it can be expanded and/or merged into this article ... --Oceans and oceans (talk) 05:10, 2 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

'Truth' and the Scientific Method

Under the heading, ‘Truth and belief’, this statement is made: “In the same way that Alhazen sought truth during his pioneering studies in optics 1000 years ago, arriving at the truth is the goal of a scientific inquiry.”

Below this statement is made: “Any scientific theory is closely tied to empirical findings, and always remains subject to falsification if new experimental observation incompatible with it is found. That is, no theory can ever be seriously considered certain as new evidence falsifying it can be discovered. Most scientific theories don't result in large changes in human understanding.”

‘Truth’ and ‘certainty’ are often used as synonyms. If, “no theory can ever be seriously considered certain”, then, “arriving at the truth”, is inherently impossible, and therefore, is an impossible goal. Wouldn’t it be more accurate and less misleading to state that, the goal of the scientific method is to obtain a theory which conforms to verifiable observation in controlled experiments. Not as elegant, but more accurate. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Euphoreus (talkcontribs) 04:44, 9 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The article clearly states that truth is not synonymous with certainty. --Ancheta Wis (talk) 04:51, 9 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
You might arrive at the truth, but you cannot be certain that you are there. Myrvin (talk) 09:37, 9 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Exactly. And there you recognize the distinction. Inserted note: Sorry, I got mixed up between Myrvin and thread-starter Euphoreus. End of note. 'True' and 'certain' in the sense of '(fully) proven' are not synonymous and should not be used as synonyms. There's a practical difference, not to mention also that 'p' and 'it is proven that p' are formally distinct and have different logical properties. Your word "conforms" might as well be "corresponds," and a claim's or proposition's correspondence to the real is a long-standing (since Aristotle at least) definition of truth. That's the key point - you've simply re-worded the idea of truth, so why not just say "truth." Also, you say 'observation' instead of 'the real' but if you substitute '(directly or indirectly) observABLE' then it falls nearly enough under a definition of the real both as independent of particular people's opinions and as potentially discoverable by any intelligence that pushes investigation far enough - i.e., the real as "objective". The Tetrast (talk) 18:20, 9 February 2012 (UTC). Copyedit The Tetrast (talk) 18:26, 9 February 2012 (UTC). Inserted note on my mixup between commenters. The Tetrast (talk) 20:17, 9 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Nonsense

This article, like much popular (read uneducated) opinion is confused. My basic objection is that the definition of the scientific method does not include peer review. Of course, for that to be included, it would falsify the claim that "the" scientific method was commonly practiced in the 1700's. Here is my counter-example: Last night I walked into my bedroom and flipped the light switch up. Observation:No light Hypothesis: Light bulb burned out Test: Replaced light bulb and light went on. (or it didn't and I proceeded to check fuse or switch or...) Either I have just earned a PhD in Science or I have just solved a simple problem the way anybody would have done it (replace 'light bulb' with 'wick' for Centuries prior to the 20th) **at any time in the past**. {Yes I appreciate my hyperbole, and one could argue pick it apart as not being systematic or broad, but these objections could be applied to most of the science practiced in the 1700's} Hence the Oxford Dictionary's definition is nonsense: it surely should not be the introduction. So either the scientific method is problem solving in its most rudimentary form or the definition given is just plain wrong. Please read Popper, Kuhn and some of the more modern literature. This article is nonsense. (P.S. unless you want to talk about what US educators are teaching are kids about "science") Without unbiased (whatever that means) peer review it is not science. It would be nice to see the word "objective" defined is a reasonable way here, too. (Being logically 'objective' is not what reviewers aspire to.)71.31.145.210 (talk) 17:20, 18 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

71.31.145.210, you are aware, I'm sure, that Einstein's 1905 papers were not peer reviewed. --Ancheta Wis   (talk | contribs) 23:00, 18 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I don't say that nothing further should be added on peer review to the article.
  But it's going kind of far to say that, if something is not peer-reviewed (i.e., refereed for suitability for publication), then that thing is not science, and it's also going far to say that scientific method in a general sense (as opposed to complex or delicate particular procedures) requires or merits a Phd. One's use of good scientific method does not mean that one deserves a PhD. You did use good scientific method in thinking to change the light bulb, given the small scope and simplicity of the question that you faced. Peirce said (in the The Fixation of Belief) that everybody uses scientific method to the extent that he or she knows how to apply it in particular cases. The word "scientific" should not be taken merely as the adjectival form of "science" such that "scientific" would mean what pertains to an actual established science, which is a kind of institution in a general sense. That which one isolated person does may be scientific but is not what is called a science or (part of a) science.
  The phrase "peer review" varies in meaning depending on context (science, clinical medicine, whatever else) and in any case usually means something more specific than peer evaluation of work (which does go to the heart of what makes a science thrive). As regards peer review in science, scholarly peer review, or refereeing, usually means formalized peer evaluation of an article's suitability for publication, and the lack of this for Galileo and many others is not considered to have kept their work from being scientific in method. Galileo has long been considered by many the father of modern scientific method, and if some now credit the earlier Alhazen, it is not because Galileo's methods have lately been found to have been weaker in scientific character than previously thought. As to the history of scientific communication, things are still changing. While scholarly peer review has become a prevalent constraint in scientific publication and, in that regard, scientific communication, citation, etc., the preprint system has grown (see arXiv) as a method of scientific communication. The essence of scientific method has not been considered to consist in any particular institutionalized forms or steps. The basics of scientific method are usually conceived in terms of their more general logical and purposeful character. Again, this is not to say that nothing more should be added to the article as to peer review and its actual practice. The Tetrast (talk) 19:22, 18 March 2012 (UTC). Edited. The Tetrast (talk) 19:38, 18 March 2012 (UTC).[reply]

History

I understand (from Popkin) that the first user of the phrase 'scientific method' (albeit in Latin) was Francisco Sanches in That Nothing is Known while advancing what is now called mitigated skepticism as a way to knowledge since Sextus Empiricus (printed in Latin 1562) proved (to him) the impossibility of apriori wisdom. What he proposed in 1581 is essentially what became the scientific approach. Sanches precedes Bacon, whose proposed method is (I understand) more talismanic than realistic, and only famed because the Royal Society claimed him as its father-figure (BBC In Our Time programme on Bacon). Of course Bacon was English. Pertin1x (talk) 06:34, 18 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Plus, Bacon was Lord Chancellor and wrote in English. 1911 Britannica claims his writings were his reaction to the scholastic program at the university, and he was determined to fix it. It was the age of discovery, and the European realms were open to these new ideas. How do you propose to incorporate the finding? --Ancheta Wis   (talk | contribs) 10:35, 18 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
You know what-- I tried googling Sanches' use of the latin phrase for scientific method and could not verify the claim. Would you please give the page number in a citation -- for Popkin, apparently? If there is a telling quote it would be appreciated.
Retrospectively speaking, Sanches had no philosophical position to fall back on except faith. Unlike Alhazen, who stated that humans make error, it appears that Sanches' recognition that Sextus Empiricus had a valid point went unrecognized. Apparently his point was missing the critical mass for acceptance. The Portugese schools of navigation made maps state secrets, so the free & unfettered exchange of ideas might not have existed in the community that Sanches apparently needed. At the very least, might Popkin cite commentary from Sanches' community of contemporary scholars? Another possibility might be outright rivalry or hostility to Sanches' point. Any evidence? --Ancheta Wis   (talk | contribs) 23:30, 18 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I'm away from my Popkin just now and can't give you the quote, and I've no idea how widely Sanches was read. I think neither he nor Bacon were game-changing but giant steps in the great shift from a scholastic paradigm of wisdom to an empirical one between the publication of Sextus in 1562 and the early decades of the C17th - but this is to confuse 'scientific method' with 'scientific revolution'. The point here would be (if true) that Sanches was identifying scientific method in contrast to apriorism. It's not a method in the sense of "here's what you do", it labels a new approach with practical implications which do in fact constitute what we understand by scientific method: observe, theorise, test, always going back to nature and never being certain. Pertin1x (talk) 05:48, 19 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for pointing me to Sanches folks. I wrote a whole book called Nobody Don't Know Nothing without being aware of his existence. Myrvin (talk) 06:31, 19 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
These translators [1] talk a lot about FS and the scientific method. But I can't see where the translation uses the term. Myrvin (talk) 06:34, 20 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
He is translated (p.167) as saying that he began "to examine the facts themselves as if no one had ever said anything about them, which is the proper method of acquiring knowledge." Myrvin (talk) 06:40, 20 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
But they do have him writing, in the Latin (p.92): "res ipsas examinare coepi: qui verus est sciendi modus". Myrvin (talk) 06:46, 20 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
It's pretty clear this thread needs to be in the history of scientific method article talk page:
Note: 'modus sciendi' is "method of knowing". 'scientia' is "knowledge".
  • Duns Scotus: (13th c.) "Quia modus sciendi non est scientia; logica est modus sciendi ..." "Because [a] method of knowing is not knowledge; logic is [a] method of knowing ..." Thereupon follows a whole series of "on the one hand, but on the other hand" statements in true Scholastic style, which is exactly the style that Francis Bacon sought to change.
  • Francisco Sanches: (1581) That Nothing Is Known (in Latin, Quod nihil scitur) p.92, thanks to Myrvin: "res ipsas examinare coepi: qui verus est sciendi modus" which I translate as "I began to examine [the] thing itself: that is [the] true method of knowing". As Pertin1x notes, it is another style of thinking, more direct and to-the-point. Isaac Newton had the same kind of reaction to logic-chopping -- when he initially read Euclid: he opened the book, saw the theorems were trifling, and closed the book (He later saw the value in Euclid --Richard Westfall, Never at Rest p98.).
--Ancheta Wis   (talk | contribs) 17:23, 23 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I checked out the local copy of the translated & annotated Quod nihil scitur (that nothing is known); there are some terrific passages in it: "elegant language is for rhetoricans, poets, courtiers, lovers, harlots, pimps, flatterers, parasites, & other people of that sort, ..., but for scientific language, accuracy suffices. " The annotator notes that Sanches was a physician who had enough of Galen & Aristotelianism and was determined to refute them. So his medical background had a formative influence on modus sciendi (method of knowing) . He promised to write a how-to book. Apparently his how-to book was never published, as he later became professor of medicine in Toulouse & apparently lost the time to write it. But his book That nothing is known ends with his trademark: "QUID?" (What?!) --Ancheta Wis   (talk | contribs) 12:48, 26 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It's looking more and more as if Sanches deserves a highly honourable mention in both the scientific method article and the 'History of' article. Since the success of science is its method, and the method as we understand it today was the fruit of this late C16th epistemological shift from apriorism to empiricism boosted by the sceptic revival, Sanches, because he not only reflected the change but actively pointed the way forward much earlier than Bacon, should surely be remembered.Pertin1x (talk) 21:30, 26 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

(By the by, I'm very curious about the Guyenne/Toulouse connection of the two great early uptakers of scepticism, Sanches and Montaigne.)Pertin1x (talk) 21:30, 26 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Okay I've found my Popkin:

"Since, as he had shown, nothing can be known, Sanches put forward a procedure, not to gain knowledge but to deal constructively with human experience. This procedure, for which Sanches introduced the term (for the first time) scientific method, "Método universal de las ciencias," consists in patient, careful empirical research and cautious judgment and evaluation of the data we observe" (Hist of Scepticism from Savonarola to Bayle, Oxford 2003 p.41)

Pertin1x (talk) 20:55, 27 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]