Talk:Senkaku Islands

Tag discussion thread

The tag should be removed from the top of the article. Compare edit at Senkaku Islands dispute:

• diff 02:17, 18 July 2011 Tenmei (talk|contribs) (58,318 bytes) ("simply being of the opinion that a page is not neutral is not sufficient to justify the addition of the tag" -- this is NOT an opinion-driven project)

The last sentence of the second paragraph at Wikipedia:NPOV dispute is the source of the quoted phrase in the edit summary. --Tenmei (talk) 02:33, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

A relevant context is here at User talk:Feezo#Senkaku Islands. --Tenmei (talk) 02:41, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

• Negative!! Please do not remove the POV-tag and initiate an editing-war because the dispute has not been resolved. We have had a drastic dispute during the mediation and the ground of your side has been proved wrong. It is far more than just "simply being of the opinion that a page is not neutral is not sufficient to justify the addition of the tag", and you need correctly interpret this sentence and current situation. Also see point 1 and 4 in Wikipedia:POV Cleanup#Guidelines for cleanup. --Lvhis (talk) 21:14, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

At the moment I decline to comment on the tag (I'm thinking about it, and I'm still hoping AGK or Feezo will be posting something to explain what should happen with the Mediation). However, Lvhis, I humbly request that you stop saying (as you have here and on other pages) that "the ground of [the side supporting the current name] has been proved wrong." I don't believe anything nearly so clear was proved anywhere. Some small points of progress were made, but then the mediation got derailed just like our past discussions have been derailed. Since we're obviously going to have to keep working on this somehow (whether it's on our own here, through Arbitration, or something else, we're clearly not done), it doesn't help us move forward if you act like everything was somehow resolved in your (those opposing the current name) favor. Thanks. Qwyrxian (talk) 00:17, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

Lvhis, you know that the tag was added for the duration of mediation only by Feezo. So I have to agree with Tenmei. And if the page stays protected, there will be no edit-warring. Moreover, there will be no edit warring if you don't seek to put the tag back later. John Smith's (talk) 07:29, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

It is my opinion that the dispute that caused the full protection is still in place; if not, the title definitely causes concern. I have restored the tag. In addition, I strongly recommend further dispute resolution regarding this situation. - Penwhale | ^{dance in the air and follow his steps} 18:48, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from Lvhis, 20 July 2011

Please let the POV-title tag stay until the dispute over it has been resolved.

The mediation on the dispute has been closed but the drastic dispute was not resolved. Please see here, here, and here. The current title/name is a Japanese one, but not an English one; and this one is not the most used one in English. It is a POV title/name per the discussion during the mediation, though the side who support the current title refused to compromise even they failed to clearly prove this one is a NPOV one. As for the two important and very reasonable reasons: 1) the dispute is still ongoing, 2)it is now more clear that the current title is a POV one than the time before mediation, I request to resume the POV-title tag. Adding POV-tag does not need a consensus, instead it only depend on whether there is ongoing dispute or not according to WP policy and guidelines. Thank you. Lvhis (talk) 17:50, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

• Request granted. I normally do not deal with things related to Taiwan/Republic of China as sysop because of possible COI, but this should be clear cut that the dispution is still in place (and acknowledged by the mediator). - Penwhale | ^{dance in the air and follow his steps} 18:41, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for granting this request by 100% in line with wp policies and guidelines! --Lvhis (talk) 20:39, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

Grossly inappropriate intervention. John Smith's (talk) 20:40, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

Not at all inappropriate. The usage of the tag has been correctly applied. STSC (talk) 20:49, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

I have defended my position on ANI. - Penwhale | ^{dance in the air and follow his steps} 02:33, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

If this title does get moved to the Pinnacle Islands, there is another chain of islands by this name in Alaska, so there must be a way to figure out how this will be disambiged (if at all). User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 05:36, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

I'll just point out that currently, Pinnacle Islands is only a redirect to this article... - Penwhale | ^{dance in the air and follow his steps} 05:55, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Ok, but the main question I have now is how many people use this term for the islands? I always seen both JP and CN names used in articles. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 06:05, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

I think the point being argued (and I could see why this point can be argued) is that: "Diaoyu(tai)" would indicate a PRC/ROC view, "Senkaku" would indicate taking Japanese side. Thus, either title can be considered POV - thus, people have brought up the Liancourt Rock example from time to time. I've voiced that I don't like the fact that the English name is not well used (compared to BOTH Chinese and Japanese name)... - Penwhale | ^{dance in the air and follow his steps} 06:26, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

I remember having to deal with the Takeshima issue on here and on OTRS years ago because the Koreans wanted it moved to Dokdo (but was originally at the Laincourt name). I personally have no horse in this race, even you know I pretty much am a Japanophile and do a lot of stuff for the Japanese on here. I support a move to Pinnacle Islands and will do it myself, if there are no objections. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 06:42, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Yes, there are objections. A number of editors, myself included, are still not convinced that Senkaku Islands does not meet the policies and guidelines surrounding the naming of articles. You're welcome to join us in the discussion, but please don't move the article until a clear consensus emerges. Even if we decide that neither Senkaku nor Diaoyu has a clear preference in English, then we still need to chose between a dual name (Senkaku/Diaoyu), a really mixed name (Senkaku/Diaoyu/Diaoyutai) and Pinnacle Islands. All offer clear problems, so we'll need a consensus as to which is the least objectionable (again, only after it's determined that neither S or D individually is the most commonly accepted English name). Qwyrxian (talk) 07:07, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

What Qwyrxian said summarizes the situation correctly. The issue is that the sides are going around in circles, and RfM have failed to provide anything. RfAr would not help, as it's more or less a content dispute (on the article name). I think a RfC would make sense, but... - Penwhale | ^{dance in the air and follow his steps} 07:22, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Here is what I am looking at. I only believe that a non-Japanese or non-Chinese name will have to work for this article. What I am looking at is if we do a combined name, people will be fighting over which name goes first (no matter if we go with Japan/China or ABC order, it will be a POV issue that brings us back to square one). Nationalism is a very big program on Wikipedia, just ask the Balkans. If we do use Pinnacle Islands, we have to make a note saying this is not commonly used. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 07:26, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

The fact is that some people are going to be unhappy, no matter what the article title is. So, unless some groundbreaking evidence is brought in to say that the article name has to be changed because "Senkaku Islands" is massively under-recognised, it should stay as it is. If some people can't live with that... well, maybe they need to stop editing Wikipedia. After all, despite the screaming of Turkish nationalists the Armenian Genocide article has not been renamed. John Smith's (talk) 09:32, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

@Penwhale: The last RfC we did was in November (See Talk:Senkaku Islands/Archive 6#What should the title of this article be?. A few uninvolved editors chimed in, each supporting SI. However we have acquired new info since then (some of the search results have changed to more even or even at times favoring D, though at the same time we found strong reason to distrust any search results; we found that all available almanacs use SI; and we discovered a concern about how to handle Diaoyu/Diaoyutai; and probably other things I'm forgetting). I don't mind another RfC, but I strongly suspect that whatever the result is, the "losing" side will insist that the results are invalid, don't reflect policy, or are in some other way flawed. In any event, the last time I drafted and opened the RfC, I was criticized because I didn't give "the other side" enough input in the RfC draft itself (I chose an RfC with little actual details, instead with a number of different pointers to previous discussions, while Bobthefish2 preferred that both sides actually list out all of their arguments/data), so I don't think I should be the one to start the RfC. It's almost like we need a "neutral" party first to draft the RfC prior to seeking out neutral parties to comment in it... Qwyrxian (talk) 07:52, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

More importantly, Qwyrxian, the very same search results were used to legitimize the adoption of "Senkaku Islands" as article name. With them being quite thoroughly overturned by myself during the mediation, there is no longer any reason to favour the current name over the previous or other forms of the name. Unfortunately, you don't seem to register the concept.

As for the RfC, it's actually not very hard. Each side make their own part of the RfC and then post the entire thing when everyone's ready. The problem with your approach is that you are assuming third parties would go through all the trouble to dig up every relevant comment/thread and then try to stitch together a big picture. Given the convoluted nature of the discussions, it's an unrealistic expectation don't you think?

A good thing about the failed mediation, though, is that its contents basically encompassed and summarized everything related to the naming dispute (which I involved myself in, against my better judgment). For anyone who's interested in dealing with this mess, it'd be best to read over the threads in the mediation before deciding on some grand idea (which would most likely be raised at least 5 times in the past by others). --Bobthefish2 (talk) 08:58, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Huh, I thought that the mediation proved that the only measurement that Diaoyu "wins" on is the one measurement that we found to be unreliable (and I'm not even convinced of that fact). While we still have the fact that major encyclopedias and almanacs all use Senkaku Islands. Plus, no one ever looked at anything other than raw search numbers. If 10 articles, for instance, all use both names, but 9 of those use "Diaoyu" throughout, mentioning Senkaku only in one paranthetical aside, that would be strong evidence in favor of Diaoyu (and, of course, the opposite is true). Express your opinion, fine, but you and Lvhis need to stop this notion that mediation somehow proved you right and us wrong, because we never got anywhere near that far.

Also, regarding your idea for how an RfC should be initiated, please see the following from WP:RFC:

Include a brief, neutral statement of the issue below the template, and sign it with ~~~~ If possible, keep your statement or question simple and succinct, so that the RfC attracts a clear and actionable response. For example: "Should this article say in the lead that John Smith was a contender for the Pulitzer Prize?" The longer and more complicated your question or statement, the more diverse the responses will be, and the harder it becomes for the closing admin to interpret the consensus.

Qwyrxian (talk) 09:10, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Responses like this do a spectacular job at trying my patience. Since you implied that search results are unreliable, then I'd like you to explain why your data are reliable. I've written some pretty long paragraphs explaining why your library results are bad and, to my knowledge, you have not yet provided a convincing argument as to why these are more reliable than search engine results.

At the same time, Lvhis and I are well-justified in our claim that we've pretty much won the debate. Since the argument is not about "whether or not Diaoyu should prevail over Senkaku Islands" but rather whether or not "Senkaku Islands deserves to be the article name over others", it is really the responsibility of you, Tenmei, and his cohorts to present convincing arguments and evidence support Senkaku Islands is, in fact, clearly favoured in common English usage. So far, I've already over-turned Phoenix's search engine results (which were the basis of keeping the status quo in the past). And again, you still have not justified your claim that the data generated from your methodologies are appropriate for our problem.

On RfC, your quotation advocates for concision and clarity when possible. For the simple examples the guideline page showed, sure you can probably make a 1 paragraph statement without sacrificing important details. But for more complicated issues such as this, you'd be leaving out a lot of crucial information if you try to follow the same model. In addition, the RfC guideline page did not actually say anything about the length of an RfC statement. Since you have a Master's in writing, I assume you already know that a piece of writing can be clear, simply, but yet packed with lots of information. I hope this explanation will put your misgivings of my misgivings of your December 2010 RfC at rest. --Bobthefish2 (talk) 10:38, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Apologies, I don't recall you ever explaining why the encyclopedias and almanacs don't matter. Actually, I vaguely recall you simply rejecting them as relevant, despite the fact that Wikipedia:Naming conventions (geographic names) explicitly tells us to check encyclopedias. Did you have further objections than that? Feel free to either repeat them or to link to them, I'm sorry that I don't recall them (I promise I really don't). As for the search engine results...really, I think the only thing we can do is a hand count. Unfortunately, we can't do that with either GBooks or GScholar, since the details usually aren't available...also, note that I'm not saying that we should absolutely disregard the search results, only that we need to be skeptical of them (which, I think, was your point all along).

But where I think you're right, though, is that each side needs to present its data clearly and succinctly in support of one name or another. Would you (and everyone else) agree that this might be a better first step than going back to another (likely indecisive) RfC? That was a step I wanted to get to in mediation, but, sadly, it broke down before that. We could even set a time limit to gather the evidence (a month? I'm just throwing out a number off the top of my head). I'm just brainstorming here, but we could set it up where everyone tries to format the evidence very strictly, like with a section specifically for "data" and a section specifically for policy & guideline based arguments. Then after that, we can specifically critique the "other side's" points/data, and then take those data and arguments to an RfC. But maybe I'm just thinking about this too much... Qwyrxian (talk) 13:25, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

If you said "you don't recall [me] ever explanining why the encyclopedias and almanacs don't matter", then we have a problem. In fact, there were conversations and threads where I explicitly addressed why encyclopedia searches are bad. It's too bad that you forgot about them [1][2]. I don't think any amount of RfC will get us somewhere if key ideas are consistently ignored/forgotten.

Just to remind you of another point you appear to have forgotten, it is really up to you and others sharing your view to provide good evidence that supports the exclusive usage of Senkaku Islands, over all others, as article name. In the realm of search engine results, I've already showed that the supporting data of your side are bad, so that's goners. Then for encyclopedia and library searches, I've also explained why they are also bad for other reasons. Unless you can provide new convincing arguments to support the use of the current name, the status quo we have here is not legitimized by anything but is in fact maintained simply by the force of Wikipedia politics alone. --Bobthefish2 (talk) 17:56, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

I apprize and admire User:Zscout370's stand and proposal very much. He is honest that he is a Japanophile and do a lot of stuff for the Japanese on wp, which I absolutely believe. And he still proposes to move the page under "Pinnacle Islands". Although the name "PI" is not my most favorite one, and the Chinese name has been proven with a slight advantage over the Japanese name in English using per the debate during the mediation, I can compromise to accept the "PI" as Zscout370 proposed. The main force who opposes to compromise to use this NPOV name is not from those who oppose the Japanese name, but is from those who pro the Japanese name. Qwyrxian, it will be useless for your stand of pro "SI" even if you can find out a way to overturn the debate data during the mediation. For you to refuse the "PI", you need to overturn the precedent of Liancourt Rock and the corresponding justification in the guideline WP:NCGN#Multiple local names. Again, please do not go "penny (any reasons blah, blah, blah ...) wise and pound (NPOV) foolish" again and again. --Lvhis (talk) 19:56, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Liancourt Rocks isn't a judgment that has to be followed, it was just one way some users chose to deal with the article title. The sooner you stop pretending we have to do the same thing here, the quicker we might talk about real issues. John Smith's (talk) 20:30, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Laincourt is also isn't the only pieces of rock that have countries fighting over it. There are a lot of territorial disputes just in Asia alone because of consequences from World War II. If would be helpful if there is a list of these lands so we can figure out what was done. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 20:38, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

I've had a thought. "South China Sea" is incredibly biased because it suggests China owns the sea. But it's a disputed area. So should it be called something else? John Smith's (talk) 20:45, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

And there is always the Sea of Japan. Regardless, I would like to have a list of these disputed territories (if it has bodies of water, so be it) so we can figure out what is going on. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 20:47, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

What are you thinking of doing - see how most articles are treated or something? If that's the case it would probably be better to just propose a change in policy. John Smith's (talk) 21:01, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Yes; gives me an idea on what could be done. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 21:11, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Encyclopedias/almanacs

New section on this point to separate it out from the bigger issue of how to proceed

Thanks for providing those links, Bobthefish2; the first I think I missed in dealing with other things you posted at the same time, the second I forgot. But I'm happy to follow up now. Ultimately, your entire argument is fundamentally flawed. You're both ignoring and misunderstanding WP:Naming conventions (geographic names). That guideline explicitly tells us to look not at wide, generic web research, but to high quality sources. The very first thing we're told to check is encyclopedias (my feeling is that an almanac is a form of encyclopedia, although others may disagree). You wrongly discounted Library of Congress findings for the same reason. As you've been told several times, you're welcome to try to change the guidelines (which you've said you don't want to do), but you can't just arbitrarily and unilaterally decide that several different useful guidelines don't apply here.

TO repeat: we are not supposed to be looking primarily at generic internet search results. This is no different, ultimately, in that if we were trying to measure whether or not to use "aren't" or "ain't", in WP, we wouldn't just measure the entire actual usage; rather we measure scholarly and tertiary sources. Now, I have no problem saying that the web search results seem ambiguous, and may in some cases slightly favor D (I'm not saying that for certain until I go back and look at the exact data again). But I do have a problem with picking only that one criteria, arguably the least accurate, for saying "We can't tell which is the most common". I can't stress enough: while the web search results are somewhere near ambiguous, the encyclopedia and almanac results were unanimous: either the source didn't mention the topic at all, or it mentioned only Senkaku Islands, or mentioned Senkaku Islands as the primary topic with a mention/redirect in the index of Diaoyu to Senkaku Islands. Now, if someone else produces other English encyclopedias or almanacs that don't follow this pattern, I'm happy to alter that, but, as of this point, no one has done so.

Oh, one other point you raised: encyclopedias and almanacs may be dated. I can't speak for the encycs, as I didn't personally search them, but I was the one who did the almanac search and every single one was from 2002 or later. Thus, while you're right that they may be dated, these ones weren't. Qwyrxian (talk)

I think one thing that you are correct upon is that search engine results can be skewed one way or another. Even if I change my Google settings to always search for Japanese websites first, when I type some characters like "旗" (ki, flag), I always tend to get Chinese based websites (or Chinese Gov websites) in the first 30 hits. SEO will always happen and sometimes it is state sponsored, but that is another issue for another time and place. The Library of Congress, for example, will list Senkaku as the main name for these islands in an 1986 record but will list PI as the main secondary name (and puts the Chinese names at the bottom). While this is the United States doing in the 1980's when Reagan had his eyes on defeating "the Evil Empire," the sources listed in this note is either from Rand McNally (major map maker) or the US State Department. Even today, the US Government believes that the islands are under Japanese control and chided China for trying to provoke Japan. Both names are used in some US Government sources, but the main term used by them is Senkaku. If we, as the MOS suggests, using the books and old encyclopedias, I found sources starting from the 1840's using PI as a term for these group of island chains. So we now know this is not a term just made up recently. Still need to sort out because these group of islands and another place called Pinnacle Islands located in Alaska. Hopefully, this helps get some kind of discussion moving forward. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 03:28, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

Generic Search Results: The search results I generated were not generic, but were practically exclusively consisted of literature sources. For some, I even counted the results by hand. What's obvious to me is that you hadn't even paid attention to the data I presented (in addition to the posts I wrote, as you've now admitted). Since I am/was one of the major parties in this dispute, I find this sloppiness to be quite alarming. It also casts doubt as to what you plan to achieve with another series of RfC, given your obvious disinterest in listening to others.

Guidelines: As I've said, guidelines are suggestions and not rules. "Narrow interpretation of guidelines" is also a critique others have of you in your RfA. If you felt I was arbitrarily dismissing part of the guideline, then please support this allegation with supporting arguments. So far, I've seen none although I've quite extensively backed my arguments up. Unfortunately, as you've admitted, you didn't read my posts and there's nothing that can force you to.

Library of Congress: I decided to verify the results just for the hell of it.

• Diaoyu: 5 results
• Senkaku: 4 results
• Search parameters: 2005 or later, English; I didn't even bother with Diaoyutai.
• URL: http://catalog.loc.gov/

Encyclopedia and Almanacs: I raised a point about cherry-picking. Can you convince others that your small sampling of 5 Alamancs is reflective of the general opinion of Almanacs? I don't think you can and I don't believe there is any reason to consider the Alamancs to be of any higher authority or credibility than say Google Map, CNN, BBC, or any other literature source yielded by the literature searches.

Let me know if there are any <sarcasm>fundamental flaws</sarcasm> with my arguments. Thanks. --Bobthefish2 (talk) 03:51, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

Oh well... It's time to pretend my arguments don't exist again. Have fun going in circles guys. --Bobthefish2 (talk) 17:39, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

Bob, I got your message and went to the page linked. I have not been able yet to figure out how to do the search there in a correct way, but I trust you. Even the result from E/A supports that DI is more used than SI, I am not sure whether the dispute can be resolved. Of course, that will strength that the current Japanese SI cannot stand. --Lvhis (talk) 18:29, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

• Qwyrxian, the Multiple Local Names section of WP:Naming conventions (geographic names) clearly states that In some cases, a compromise is reached between editors to avoid giving the impression of support for a particular national point of view. I'd prefer to that to happen here, as clearly neither SI nor Diaoyu(tai) would be agreed upon. - Penwhale | ^{dance in the air and follow his steps} 06:59, 25 July 2011 (UTC)
  • And that is what I was getting at. We know now that the Japanese name will not be acceptable; in turn, if we choose the Chinese name, people will not be happy about that. If we put both names in the title, people will fight over which name goes first. Using PI is, in my view, the only option that is even foreseeable to solve this debate. It will not be the end of the debate, since there was times that years after the Laincourt issue was solved, I still fielding emails on OTRS saying Dokdo is the only acceptable name they will accept for the islands on English Wikipedia. But I think we will have less angry people if we choose PI over S or D (or a combined name). User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 07:37, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

I'm aware that a compromise is appropriate when we can't meet the other requirements. But we may not do that until such time as we verify that SI is not the most common name. If the compromise were the primary issue, we wouldn't have all of those other parts to the guideline, and every single disputed place name would automatically get some "neutral name"; I would argue that we have to change Sea of Japan to "That Sea in between Korea and Japan and China and Russia", "South Kuril Islands" to, I don't know, "South Man Islands" (taking the rough translation), and, heck, I can't even guess what we'd call Ireland or the United States. And with regards to Zscout370's argument, merely the fact that the issue causes headaches in the real world is not enough to overcome the requirement that we must use the most common name in English. We do not make choices to make people less angry; under that argument, we'd take out all of the pictures of Muhammad, probably 90% of our pictures on sex acts, and every criticism section from every company and bio page. We make choices based on our guidelines and policies, and those guidelines in this case tell us to choose the most common name if one exists. Again, please understand, I'm not rejecting a compromise, but I'm saying that we don't choose the compromise option until we first establish that there is no common English name. And part of that work is going to have to be some justification as to why we would be the only tertiary source that doesn't use Senkaku Islands. Wikipedia does not lead, we follow. Now, we do have the ability to follow trends more quickly, but it hasn't even been proven that there is this massive trend away from SI towards DI. Qwyrxian (talk) 08:42, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

I disagree with PI. It's not only a common name but also it's against "Use modern names". Besides, unlike Liancourt Rocks, PI is not approved by United States Board on Geographic Names. They approve Senkaku. Check it for yourself. [3] As far as I know, Australia, UK, and USA use Senkaku Shoto on their nautical charts. If the title is biased, the US government would be biased too. See the map. I think the Google search of almost all news stories and studies are meaningless as long as they deal with the dispute. As a matter of course, they use both names as a part of basic information on the islands. @Penwhale, it seems you didn't notice this. Please answer me. Thank you. Oda Mari (talk) 09:10, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

Implicitly, neither PRC nor ROC would approve. However, I mentioned that CNN and Google are using both within article text/on the map, and this cannnot be done in a page title. And technically, using United States Board on Geographic Names as a point isn't correct since it doesn't represent a worldwide view. - Penwhale | ^{dance in the air and follow his steps} 15:22, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

Yes, that is absolutely true. --Lvhis (talk) 17:01, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

Because when one US Government agency went from Dokdo to Laincourt, President Bush struck back and forced the name back to Dokdo and make it Korean owned source. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 18:04, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

What exactly is your point about CNN and Google? That just shows a preference of two websites. And the fact that China and Taiwan wouldn't approve - so what? John Smith's (talk) 19:38, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

I believe that Penwhale does have a point with CNN and Google, but the point is not complete. It would be helpful to know what the majority of the worlds new organizations use. Its a daunting task, but something I'll try to work on in maybe the next week or two. What needs to be done (and anyone else is certainly welcome to help) is to scan through articles at a single news source, and see if there seems to be a house style guide. For example, if CNN always used a dual name, that would be evidence that SI is not a preferred term for that one specific company. If the formatting varied from article to article, though, it would not provide any clear evidence either way. If every major news site we found worldwide similarly used a dual name, that would be good evidence (helping balance out the encyclopedia/almanac evidence) that there has been a recent shift. But this requires looking at the individual articles. As I said above, if the article uses Senkaku throughout but mentions Diaoyu once, that's strong evidence that they are supporting the Senkaku name (and vice-versa). This task will help us get beyond simple, flawed Google searches and get an inkling of what's actually going on in our sources. If possible, we'll want to use worldwide sources (i.e., including UK, India, Al Jazeera, etc.), but we probably don't really care what Japanese or Chinese or Taiwanese sources uses, even in English, since, well, I think it's obvious why. Qwyrxian (talk) 00:53, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

@Bothefish2: I didn't see your comments because I generally don't look back up at the entirety of a thread to see if anything got added in the middle once I've already added a comment afterward. I try to, but I don't always. Taking them one by one:

• Generic search results: How do you limit search results for "literature"? If you mean you did GScholar instead of GWeb, though, I understood thta. I never meant to suggest that we weren't doing GScholar, my apologies that I wasn't as clear as possible by using terms like "generic search" (what I meant was, a search where something is typed into any version of Google and the only thing that is looked at is the total result, either on the first or last pages of the search). For handcounting, I think that we all need to consider doing some very serious handcounting, as I don't believe that any of us have done a really thorough one; I think our best approach is what I suggested above, basically following Penwhale's example: look at what each separate news agency/org is doing.
• Guidelines: We have to use something to constrain our decision--otherwise, yes, "your" side automatically wins because all you have to show is that there is disagreement which automatically means we pick neither SI or DI. And if we're going to use the guidelines, we can't pick and choose which parts to use. We can say, "Oh, this result is tainted for this reason," or we can say, "We all agree this is not useful in this situation," but you (generic you, not you=Bobthefish2) can't say "This one criteria on encyclopedias, we're not using that, because, um...well, because we don't think its a good criteria." I want to especially emphasize that since Penwhale tried to use a different part of the criteria itself to argue that the switch to PI was clearly correct. Yes, guidelines are guides, not soulless rules to follow lockstep. But just like you can't say, "No, WP:IAR, so I'm not following that guideline," you can't just throw out the one "just because". The burden for throwing out any given guideline is pretty much going to be on the burden of the person wanting to do that. Instead, that's why I think we should look at guidelines as a whole, look at the overall intent, and apply each part as much as possible.
• Guidelines, part 2: But, heck, I'll even meet you on your chosen level--I'll go ahead and tell you why I think this is a good guideline, preemptively, as it were. The guideline telling us to look at other tertiary sources is a very good one, especially in this instance. Wikipedia all too easily falls victim to recentism and news reporting. We have to balance this constant desire (well-meaning, well-intended) to try to stay right on the cutting edge with the need that an encyclopedic reflect a solemn, sober analysis about what is notable, likely to still be true twenty minutes from now, and responsible. For something as basic as the name of a place, we need to look at these tertiary sources, not to answer the question, but to give us guidance. In other words, I'm not saying it's the be-all, end-all criteria, but it's one worth retaining. You point out that they have small editorial staffs; well, the decisions about what to call these islands will similarly be made by a small group of people at each news agency. That's why, yes, it's useful to know what CNN does, but it will be more useful to know what CNN, Al Jazeera, the Guardian, NYT, AP, Reuters, et al do, collectively. If there is a clear trend, then, yes, it may be time to bow to it. You also express concern that encyclopedias are out of date; well, that's why the guidelines tell us to only look at recent ones. The almanacs I looked at were all from 2002 and later. I don't know about the encyclopedias.
• LoC: A valid, useful point. I did some preliminary searches, and got numbers similar or equal to yours. Of course, we need to be careful (one of the Diaoyu results, was from a book called Dokdo : historical appraisal and international justice, which, from the title alone, does not seem like a valid return for our concerns (given it's clear anti-JP bias); but, I do see that this result may point towards a balance. I'd like to learn a little more about what exactly I'm searching, but this is definitely a useful avenue of exploration. I'm interested to see how the numbers change over time, too.
• Encyclopedias and Almanacs: I didn't cherry pick them; I looked at every single international and Asian almanac in the reference section of a major US research university library. Those 5 were it; there were other atlases, but either 1) they were older than 2000 (which was my cut-off point for precisely the concerns you legitimately have above); 2) were not the "right kind" of almanac (i.e., they were a topographical or biological or something else, that thus didn't list the islands) or 3) weren't sufficiently detailed to list the islands at all (I mean, let's face it, despite the role they play in the geopolitics of these three entities, they're really not so (physically) big or such a big (psychologically/politicall) deal.

I hope this answers your concerns in more specific detail. Qwyrxian (talk) 05:55, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

I am glad you chose to respond.

• Generic search results: I am disappointed that the detail I put into generating my search data is still not very fully appreciated. All it takes is to read my critique and reassessment of Phoenix's results in the recent mediation. While you aren't obliged to read any of my posts, it'd help to prevent occasions where you'd make inaccurate description of the most recently established set of name-usage data (and which would offer me reasons to say mean things about you).
• Guidelines 1.0: If you are unable to use encyclopedia results in a way that circumvents the legitimate concerns I raised, then that's fine. For example, there can be a hypothetical unbiased search engine of encyclopedias where you can pick up 100 Senkaku hits vs. 1 Diaoyu hit dating from 2006 on. Unfortunately, such an unrealistically strong piece of evidence that argues in favour of your favourite position is highly unlikely to exist in this reality.
• Guidelines 1.5: If a particular guideline is not suited for a scenario due to legitimate reasons, then there is a good reason not to use it. Unlike what is suggested by your favourite imagined quote about why we should not be using encyclopedia, I have in fact provided good reasons on why they should not be used (unless... see Guidelines 1.0).
• Guidelines 2.0: You have fallen into this great horrendous trap of using "news" as a reason to trust encyclopedia over other things. As I've warned you in the past, I do not very much like my posts and data to be ignored in a horrible manner that renders it to be practically the same as being non-existent. To spare you another lecture, I'd give you a friendly reminder that a significant portion of the search data we discussed in the past were exclusively consisted of books and other non-news materials. In the event you would like to fruitlessly argue that they, in fact, suffer greatly from recentism, then I would also remind you that the date filters I used were, in fact, very relaxed (i.e. 2005 and beyond).
• LoC: I am very glad you submit on this point. This is a very good step forward.
• Encyclopedias and Almanacs: Does this major university located in USA have a comprehensive repository of almanacs? Five is a very small sample. Even if five encompasses the space of all respectable recent almanacs, you still have not provided a reason to convince us that the facts from such a tremendously large sample of almanacs is, in fact, more important than the results generated from literature search in various media.
• One thing you've said that's worth repeating: Yes, ''our'' side automatically wins because all we have to show is that there is disagreement which automatically means we pick neither SI or DI.

--Bobthefish2 (talk) 06:31, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Yes, ''our'' side automatically wins because all we have to show is that there is disagreement which automatically means we pick neither SI or DI. That's not how Wikipedia works. You need consensus to change an article title if the move is disputed. Saying "we" win, you lose isn't going to generate consensus. John Smith's (talk) 07:36, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Of course, my British friend. Some people never learn to lose and will stubbornly filibuster anything they don't like. For instance, even if 50 Nobel laureates proclaimed that the Taiwanese are, in fact, Chinese, I will most certainly expect there is a special someone from an ex-first rate power to ferociously deny that connection. --Bobthefish2 (talk) 08:08, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Off-topic talk, drama that has (hopefully) ended

Bob, for a short while after we all come back to discussing these matters I think you've changed. Then you start with the snide comments. Are you trying to get a rise out of me, or is being unpleasant just part of your nature? John Smith's (talk) 13:03, 26 July 2011 (UTC) Sorry, I do not see the connection. I was simply agreeing with your idea that "being right" is meaningless when there are parties who'd veto the outcome regardless of argument. The example I raised is purely hypothetical. Since you are a highly reputable editor, I would not expect you to challenge the opinions of 50 Nobel laureates and thus I was not, in fact, referring to you in the example. I hope this clarification suffices. --Bobthefish2 (talk) 17:48, 26 July 2011 (UTC) You weren't referring to me? In that case, remembering that you've thought it necessary to go on about how Britain lost its empire in the past, who is the "special someone from an ex-first rate power"? Why not just put the spade away, rather than keep digging? John Smith's (talk) 17:57, 26 July 2011 (UTC) Britain is the 6th largest economy in the world with one of two top tier A+++ World class cities in the world (the other being NYC). It is also nuclear-armed, possesses the 2nd largest navy in the world, and houses the most prestigious research laboratories among the top academic circles. While it is no longer the baddest kid on the block, it is still most certainly a first-rate power for the time being. I am not sure if others agree. Now, there are lots of ex-first rate powers in the world. But this topic is off-tangent --Bobthefish2 (talk) 18:07, 26 July 2011 (UTC) You raised it. So tell me, who is the "special someone from an ex-first rate power"? And how was it relevant to the discussion? John Smith's (talk) 18:40, 26 July 2011 (UTC) It was simply an example of stubbornness expressed despite presentation of overwhelming logic and evidence. It is relevant because it ties back into your concept of "right" or "wrong" doesn't matter due to the need for "consensus". Since you are very zealous about the "special someone", I was, in fact, referring to Mister Hitler who was legendary in his disregard of facts and reality. Despite his reputation as the German dictator, he was, in fact, an Austrian. And for those who aren't familiar with world history, Austria was a first-rate power prior to the World War I. Unlike Britain, which merely lost its empire and became an American sidekick, Austria lost about 4/5 of its heartlands and became a weak land-locked neutral state. Does this clarification suffice? --Bobthefish2 (talk) 19:05, 26 July 2011 (UTC) It sounds more like a quickly thought up excuse than a clarification. I mean, given your previous mocking re Britain's status, when did the change of opinion come? When did you realise that it's a first-rate power? John Smith's (talk) 19:09, 26 July 2011 (UTC) Mr dear friend, I am completely innocent in all this. If you still harbour suspicion towards my completely innocent intent to agree with your concept, then you should bring it to my talk page, since this is now a personal issue and not relevant to the topic anymore. Should you have the will to bring the matter to my talk page, I will be happy to correct any misconception. --Bobthefish2 (talk) 19:15, 26 July 2011 (UTC) Since you seem all so grumpy, a couple of comics may help to lighten the mood [4][5][6]. --Bobthefish2 (talk) 01:35, 27 July 2011 (UTC) I'm sorry, did you just post RACIST cartoons to this talk page? Are you trying to get dragged back to WQA? The second is particularly racist in the use of Engrish to depict the characters; the rest are, at best, stereotypical. Am I way off base? Qwyrxian (talk) 01:47, 27 July 2011 (UTC) >No_fun_allowed.jpg -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 02:22, 27 July 2011 (UTC) And so your overreaction doesn't evolve any further, Polandball is an internet meme that originated from the /int/ board on Krautchan, and was also popular on 4chan's /int/ board before it turned to shit became /new 2.0/. Many of the cartoons are light-hearted drawings by various people of all kinds of backgrounds, and I think you are taking this too damn seriously. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 02:27, 27 July 2011 (UTC) Yes, Qwyrxian has an irritating tendency of blowing things out of proportions, especially when User:Bobthefish2 is involved. It must be fanciful to throw threats around and impress nobodies like me. Let's see what I said about him in the recent RfA that led to his apotheosis into wiki-godhood: "can be quite naive when it comes to dealing with inter-personal disputes" - Yes, that certainly applies here. In the event Qwyrxian is not receptive to the concept of satire, I would further clarify a few things: Every country ball in Polandball meme speaks improper forms of English I am Chinese and share the same race as people living in Taiwan. In the event Qwyrxian is not satisfied and would like to see some blood, he is welcomed to open up a favourite DR of his choosing and write something up about me. --Bobthefish2 (talk) 04:57, 27 July 2011 (UTC) Couldn't finish what I had to say earlier since I had a university lecture going on beforehand, but since I raged so damn hard earlier, I feel as if I absolutely must finish what I started, now that the lecture is over. Incoming rant, please wear your helmets and shinpads. Qwyrxian, I am absolutely appauled by your behaviour. You have made a horrible bad faith strike against Bobthefish2 who has attempted, in good faith (and innocence, may I add), to lighten the mood. It appears that you will try to find even the slightest oppurtunity and moment to attack those not on your side, due to some kind of a silly rivalry. He had no intention to piss anyone off by posting those links, and he did not assume that there would be unfunny people here that are Nazi about seriousness on the internet. Not everyone on the internet is 40+ years old and has no sense of humour. How in the world is satirical use of Engrish racist? It's not racist, it's true, people do actually talk like that, despite what things might be like in your head, dearest sir. My mother speaks like that dammit. I'd also like to quote Chris Rock (not word-for-word): "When people say Black people have big lips, it's not racist, because it is actually true. Just like how they say White people can't dance - White people actually are terrible at dancing. It's the truth." Believe it or not, those silly Chinamen actually talk like that, and that includes my mother, my father, and everyone else. In some cases people can't understand the fuck my mother is saying, because she speaks English in a non-native manner. Arguing "oh noes" is PC gone overboard, and in an Orwellian manner at that. Next you're going to argue that we should use words such as doubleplusungood, because it's discriminatory and demeaning to use the English word "bad". Goddamit yes I mad, I'm mad as hell right now over your ignorance, persistance and horrible attitude. when I first read your original post I raged so hard the entire university lecture theatre was looking at me. If they could harness the power of my rage they could probably power New York City for 10 damn hours. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 05:41, 27 July 2011 (UTC) Oh no, that's a lot of built up anger. We should hold Qwyrxian solely responsible for escalating the mood of this thread in an unsatisfactory manner, followed by holding an ANI chaired by Jimmy Wales about his unsatisfactory lack of appreciation for satires and Polandball memes. Any expenses incurred by burst arteries and high blood pressure conditions as a result of his unsatisfactory lack of humour will be paid by the evil cabal of Wikipedia administrators. --Bobthefish2 (talk) 06:48, 27 July 2011 (UTC) I can't say as I find any of these pictures funny. The last one seems to show the UK celebrating its birthday by itself whilst crying. Lovely. :( John Smith's (talk) 07:11, 27 July 2011 (UTC) No, the UK-ball was not celebrating alone. It was celebrating with a bunch of Kazakhstan balls in the background. The enormity of this Kazakh-organized celebration brought the UK-ball to tears. One can see the Kazakhstan balls looked genuinely jolly and did not have any mocking expressions. I thought the first two comics to be funny as well, especially the 3rd square of the 2nd comic with China ball's expression. --Bobthefish2 (talk) 10:54, 27 July 2011 (UTC) I'm going to take this to benlinsquare's talk page, because it's going to be completely irrelevant to Senkaku Islands. Qwyrxian (talk) 07:41, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

@Zscout370 What BGN changed was the status of the islets from "Korean territory" to "undesignated sovereignty". Not the name of the islets. See [7], [8], [9] and [10]. The name is still Liancourt Rocks. See [11]. You may notice that the islets has been long known as Liancourt Rocks to the West. But not PI.
@Penwhale "...neither PRC nor ROC would approve"? Not approve of what? The name Senkaku? Japan recognizes Diaoyu Islands as the Chinese name and Diaoyutai Islands as the Taiwanese name of the islands called Senkaku Shoto in Japan and that's all. IMO, both names are not biased at all. "...it doesn't represent a worldwide view"? Of course it doesn't. But why should the worldwide view is needed? This is en WP and USA is one of the English speaking countries, in fact a big one, and what the country calls the island is important. And what about the nautical charts used by English speaking countries? I say it again that the dual name description is only a basic information when dealing with the dispute with any source. Oda Mari (talk) 10:12, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

• If they approve the name, it's almost as if they admit that the islands belong to Japan. Think about Political status of Taiwan, and you'll see why I'm not willing to touch that issue with an X-feet pole. - Penwhale | ^{dance in the air and follow his steps} 18:23, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Small note: I wrote in my RfA that when I find myself getting angry or stressed about a subject, sometimes I just have to walk away for a while. I have to do that with this set of articles for a few days. It's not just the collapsed drama, it's...it's...everything. It would be super if no one actually moved the article in that time, but, well, do what you will. Qwyrxian (talk) 11:48, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

I try not to get stressed over this. That's why I patrol RFPP from time to time, as well as doing a few translation tasks I have in that thing called real life. I think most of us wouldn't move this currently (and it's quite amazing how our discussion went from "whether a tag is misplaced" to "where should this article be, eventually" without too much bickering!), and since we're actually talking calmly, I fathom this is helping us to build a consensus. - Penwhale | ^{dance in the air and follow his steps} 20:41, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

@Qwyrxian: It's puzzling to witness you getting all so very stressed out over this, especially when we haven't had everyone on board yet (i.e our friends Tenmei and Phoenix hadn't really joined the discussion yet). I sure hope I wasn't a major contributor of your stress, as I've always only intended to maintain a very jolly atmosphere.

As a part of a parting satire, I'd say Wes Johnson's voice definitely played in my head as I read your parting comment. Specifically, the tone of the comment reminds me of the occasion in Elders Scrolls 4: Oblivion when the PC dressed up as the GrayFox and the Town Guard said "You're the Gray Fox! You're wanted for....for.... for ALL KINDS OF STUFF!!!!".

@Penwhale: Just wait until all the regulars start participating. So far, we are missing at least 3. You really think this is that easy? :-p

--Bobthefish2 (talk) 21:07, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

Ah, I realized, I was getting stressed because I let Btf2 take advantage of me. My mistake, I shan't let it happen again. I may be "naive" and too willing to give in to pressure, as Bob says, but I'm not going to do my best not to get baited again. Back to your points:

• Deal with your disagreement with the naming guidelines elsewhere. This line regarding encyclopedias is unambiguous: "If the articles in these agree on using a single name in discussing the period, it is the widely accepted English name." Its no longer my problem that you don't like that guideline.
• Your point about the number of almanacs is laughable. "Five is a very small sample." Well, then go open a publishing company and publish more. There simply aren't that many companies writing world almanacs detailed enough to cover these uninhabited micro-islands. If all of the encyclopedias and all of the almanacs use one term, well, sounds to me like the tertiary publishing world (the world we try to mimic in tone and style) has spoken. As always, if you find encyclopedias or almanacs that don't use only SI or use SI as the main entry, then we'll talk
• 2005 and beyond isn't even close to relaxed. I can't think of any other situation I've been in where we've arbitrarily limited our analysis to such a tiny time frame. I felt that I was being extremely generous by starting search results at 2000; a more reasonable choice would easily go back 20 or more years. 2005 is arbitrary and capricious and designed to demonstrate some new tenuous non-standard.

I'm going to, when I finally feel like it, start the in depth news and scholarly search. I also want to know what the UK, India, and other countries use on their official naval charts. I believe Oda Mari has raised this issue before, I'd like to see the references (they may already be here, but I'll have to look through the many different archives). So far, the best work that "your side" has done is to show that the online search results we got at first were probably wrong, but that, no matter what, those results will almost always be unreliable. Yes, you and I have both done more detailed searches, but we have numerous times been cut off in mid-stride, derailed by conversations like the one above. I'm done arguing about the guidelines and legitimacy of encyclopedias; if you still think that's a valid point, marshal your arguments for the (eventual) RfC. I no longer care that you want to pick and choose which parts of the guidelines you think are valuable. At this point, I think all we should be concerned about is making sure we have all of the useful evidence, and then we present it to the community, and go from there. Just to allay fears--I'm not rushing this, as I myself have quite a number of things to look at in more detail. Just saying, us arguing amongst ourselves about how the guidelines apply is getting us nowhere, so lets actually do something valuable. Qwyrxian (talk) 05:58, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

I was under the impression that you've made a wonderful recovery after your show of tremendous outrage, but it appears I still figuratively see some residual foaming around the mouth. Are you certain you have fully recovered your sense of objectivity? Anyhow, let me examine your points one by one:

• Guidelines: In case you aren't aware, there are multiple guidelines and essays about following guidelines. For example:

1. Wikipedia:Guideline#Role says Guidelines are sets of best practices that are supported by consensus. Editors should attempt to follow guidelines, though they are best treated with common sense, and occasional exceptions may apply.
2. Wikipedia:Guideline#Adherence says Use common sense when interpreting and applying policies and guidelines; there will be occasional exceptions to these rules. Conversely, those who violate the spirit of a rule may be reprimanded even if no rule has technically been broken. Whether a policy or guideline is an accurate description of best practice is determined by the community through consensus.
3. Wikipedia:The_difference_between_policies,_guidelines_and_essays says There are a remarkable number of exceptions and limitations embedded within Wikipedia's policies, and all policies need to be applied with common sense.

... and then here are some comments from our friendly Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(geographic_names) guideline page:

1. Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(geographic_names)#General_guidelines says These are advice, intended to guide, not force, consensus; but they are the consensus of actual experience in move discussions.
2. Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(geographic_names)#Widely_accepted_name says A name can be considered as widely accepted if a neutral and reliable source states: "X is the name most often used for this entity". Without such an assertion, the following methods (not listed in any particular order) may be helpful in establishing a widely accepted name

Now that I've reminded you in a very friendly manner that these guidelines were never meant to be blindly enforced to the letter, I'd like to take this as an opportunity for you to reflect (or not) on some of the comments written in the recent RfA that led to your apotheosis to wiki-godhood:

1. [12] said ... I found that Qwrxian was more interested in policing Wikipedia than editing it. In his zeal to voluntary enforce WP guidelines, I found that the user came off as [insert adjective], [insert adjective], and authoritarian.
2. [13] said ... Qwyrxian needs to [insert verb] before becoming Admin. I feel he has a fatal flaw: predisposition to value policy over article quality. Policies are good things. But when valued to extreme in-and-of-themselves, it becomes a bit manic and destructive. For example, I've seen Qwyrxian go out of his way to basically invent fact and theory to maintain a policy view - essentially force-fitting a situation into the policy for the sake of the policy. I feel if he feels the need to go that extent, something must be wrong. Policy should be kept in mind always, with vigilance for opportunities to make them better. But I don't think Qwyrxian carries that mindset. I think he values policy to such degree, the article becomes in inconvenient nuisance to the policy.

With all of this said, you have been very awfully misguided (note the pun, LOL) in your rant about my critique of your wonderfully favourite guidelines... especially when I've provided some rather extensive reasoning on why some of them are not very applicable. If you must, do take your concerns to WP:GUIDELINE and make your case to the editors there regarding the need to make adherence to guidelines 100% mandatory (good luck with that).

• Sample size of almanacs: Since you are not a man of science but rather a man of wonderful rhetoric (based on your MA in rhetoric), I suppose it is unfair to expect you to appreciate why having a small sample size of opinions is bad especially one's intent is to use this sample to make a general statement about a very large body of opinions. If your training in basic statistics is, indeed, awfully insufficient, then I'd recommend you to gracefully step aside and let people who actually know what they are talking about to do the actual talking. After all, asking someone to go open a publishing company and publish more as a fireback of criticisms about your small sample size of almanacs is truly not a wonderful excuse. Now, suppose your wonderful sample of 5 almanacs is truly the entire space of all almanacs, then it's also actually doesn't mean a lot. Since these wonderful almanacs are often published by companies and are actually no more authoritative than other literature/reliable sources we've located, there is little reason to overturn the inconclusiveness of literature searches and give undue weight to your 5 very wonderful almanacs.
• Time stringency: 2005-2011 is a pretty long time period for politics, literature, and the mass media. I understand you don't like it because the newer sources are progressively trending towards a relatively even distribution of both names, but this is an on-going issue with public favoritism changing as we speak. But of course, you are welcomed to do your searches in whatever time period you like... such as 1895-1970... and argue that we should actually care about what some outdated sources favoured.
• The value of the work on our side: Contrary to what you said, the value of the work on my side (as you defined), is quite a lot actually. Basically, we've refuted every argument/evidence your side has ever put up and turned many of them in our favour (i.e. LoC, Google Scholar, and others). Intuitively, that would've meant the reversion of the current article name to the previous. But alas, Wikipedia politics is at play. :)

By the way, admin, I have a few recommendations for you when you type your response (if any). First, you should take a very deep breathe and release it. Second, you should keep track of your typing process. If you are typing at twice the speed and making tremendously loud banging sounds, please stop and come back in a week. Finally, you should try to remind yourself that you are supposed to be a very level-headed editor who doesn't write the kind of trash that I am currently responding to. Thanks. :-p --Bobthefish2 (talk) 03:43, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

Pinnacle neutral?

I just realized something tonight that hadn't occurred to me before--Penwhale, Lvhis, and others, have been proposing Pinnacle Islands as if it were some sort of neutral name, haven't you? To me, I always understood that it is no more neutral than any other name we could choose; it still represents a specific world view, a specific perception about who the island may or may not belong to, etc. Pinnacle Islands, for example, represents a worldview that legitimates the Chinese claim to the island as being somewhat equal to Japan's. It also represents a worldview that says that "native" names have the same "meanings" when translated into the language of the oppressor; in fact, it comes close to push the idea that words that sound more like "English" are "better" than native names. I just figured I'd point this out; while there's still some sort of outside chance we might, for our own reasons, choose Pinnacle Islands, no one should believe its a "neutral name". Every name we choose will be non-neutral, by the very nature of the way the act of naming something works. I don't know if this matters to anyone, but since the sudden recognition of such a disparity between the way I had been thinking and the way that I think others were think seemed worthy of note. Qwyrxian (talk) 13:52, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

• I might have mentioned this before, but I don't see a good solution in any means. Reason being that if we were to reject both SI and Diaoyu, PI is not exactly well known enough for it to be used, in theory. And I'm having a hard time believing that a dual name in title would work, simply on the grounds that "Which title gets placed first?" could be a point to be argued (I'm thinking back to FIFA World Cup 2002 in Japan and S.Korea where those 2 countries were trying to be "ahead" of each other in the banners) - Penwhale | ^{dance in the air and follow his steps} 18:21, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
• Actually, recently it was Zscout370 (also an admin) who mentioned a proposal about Pinnacle. I said it was not my favorite one but I can comprise to accept. Pinnacle Islands is the real and pure English name that the Japanese name SI was originated or translated from (see my comments with RSs during the mediation). That is one of the reasons that this one is not my favorite one, but if everyone stubbornly insisted on his/her most favorite, we would see what the wp could be. --Lvhis (talk) 21:35, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Just checking Lvhis, you mean that Pinnacle was translated from Senkaku, right (i.e., Senkaku came first, Pinnacle came later), right? Qwyrxian (talk) 22:03, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Oh, opposite: Pinnacle was translated to Senkaku, or Senkaku was translated from Pinnacle, i.e. Pinnacle came first (1843), and Senkaku came later (1900). --Lvhis (talk) 23:23, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Ah, yes, sorry; I've just read the relevant chapter in Suganuma's book. Although, I might say that, at least according to Suganuma, the names were jointly translated from both the Chinese and the English, it does appear (assuming that book is accurate) that the Pinnacle name predates the Senkaku name, and that Suganuma believes that SI is a translation of Pinnacle/Diaoyu. Qwyrxian (talk) 01:32, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

SI isn't translated from Chinese, that's for sure. Diaoyu(tai), properly translated, means Fishing (platform). I say that as a zh-N editor. - Penwhale | ^{dance in the air and follow his steps} 04:05, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

For Japanese, Senkaku does translate to "sharp pavilion." User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 04:30, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

When Suganuma said the Japanese name "Senkaku Islands" were jointly translated from both English and Chinese, he meant for the all names from each individual island within this group of islands, if I understood correctly. The name for these group of islands or the Islands "Senkaku Island" (尖閣諸島) was only from English "Pinnacle Islands". As Zscout370 pointed, "Senkaku" means "sharp pavilion", "尖" (pronounced as "sen" here) → "sharp", and "閣" (pronounced as "kaku") → "pavilion", which was exactly translated (not transliterated) from "Pinnacle". But within these Islands, some individual island or rock was or is still used its name translated or adopted from Chinese. For example, the largest and main island of these Islands in Japanese is still named as 魚釣島 (pronounced in Japanese as "uotsuri-jima") which was from Chinese name 釣魚台 (Diaoyu platfrom) or 釣魚島 (Diaoyu Island). 釣 ("Diao" in Chinese) → fishing (verb), and 魚 ("yu" in chinese) → fish (noun). The word order of the Characters or Kanji is reversed in Japanese because the Japanese grammar for declarative sentence word order is (S+)O+V, which differs from Chinese and English one (S+)V+O. The translation of "Pinnacle Islands" into "Senkaku Island" was done by a Japanese teacher (some source said an explorer) Tsune Kuroiwa (黑岩恆) in 1900, while the "Senkaku Island" was not yet officially used until 1950s by Japanese Ministry of Foreign Affairs. Similar description can be found in Martin Lohmeyer's work and Han-yi Shaw' work. --Lvhis (talk) 23:37, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

Off-topic

Break Hello. Not that many people will care, but I'm going to find it hard to find the time to use Wikipedia for the next several days. If you leave me a message on my talk page and I don't reply, it means I'm not around! Have a great weekend. John Smith's (talk) 20:15, 29 July 2011 (UTC) You will be greatly missed, my friend. ;-) --Bobthefish2 (talk) 02:10, 30 July 2011 (UTC) John Smith's should have posted his personal message on his user talk page, not on here. STSC (talk) 19:22, 30 July 2011 (UTC)