Talk:Ted Kennedy

gaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyy

Template:Controversial (history)

Faked his death?

WTF Why does it say that he faked his death??!! Someone change this quick.

Citation practices and styles

On another matter, your [SNIyer12] changes to reduce the number of footnotes by collapsing all book references into a single footnote each by eliminating page-level cites can't be kept. Per WP:CITE, page numbers are vital when the book reference is used to support specific facts. Without them, readers have no hope of finding the place in the book that supports the article. I've taken many articles to GA and FA, and all of them have been required to have page-level cites to books. And the preferred format for doing this is what this article uses, a full book citation in a "Bibliography" section and then "short form" cites with author, title, page number in footnotes. See WP:CITESHORT for more. Wasted Time R (talk) 01:29, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Also, SNIyer12, please don't change the short form book cite footnotes into using the {{citation}} template. Every use of a template increases article size and load time, which is not what we want for this article, and for short form cites the template provides absolutely no benefit. Wasted Time R (talk) 15:53, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

rule change

On the sucession law it should be added that Kennnedy originaly pushed the law change when mitt Romney was govenorSolarsheen (talk) 21:47, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

This used to be in the article and got taken out. The crux is not whether Kennedy pushed for the early special election, but whether he liked or disliked the five-month vacancy that the law change brought about. I still haven't seen a definitive source on this. Wasted Time R (talk) 22:02, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

I believe it is the crux because it points out why the law had to be changed. It also addresses the controversary of the decision. I think it belongs back in.Solarsheen (talk) 16:36, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

OK, I've added it back in. Wasted Time R (talk) 17:16, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

Carter and health care

[copied from my talk page]
Are you really saying that memoirs cannot be cited?

Are you saying you cannot cite an author who dislikes or likes the subject he writes about (think Adam Clymer)?

I believe history wants to hear from ALL the principals of an event.Cgersten (talk) 05:35, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

You were correct to originally change this section to reflect that Carter had a health care plan of his own. The previous text didn't mention this, and its presentation of the whole health care split was disjointed. However, the best sources for that plan and the split do not include Carter's memoirs, since memoirs by anybody are by definition skewed towards that participant's viewpoint. See WP:PRIMARY and footnote 6 there for more. So, I made use of Boston Globe, New York Times, and Time magazine sources to better describe Carter's plan and the differences with Kennedy's. I left out Carter's memoir view of the split because I thought it self-evident. You felt strongly enough about this to revert all the additional sourcing and description I had done, which is a bit bizarre. So I restored that but also put back in the Carter memoir view, along with Kennedy's later memoir view of Carter. So if nothing else, the article now makes clear that these two really didn't like each other. Wasted Time R (talk) 12:06, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Liberal, not green

He was liberal, but not "green". He killed what would have been the nation's first offshore wind energy farm off the coast of Nantucket Sound- 130 wind turbines which would have emitted no pollution and been barely visible over the horizon. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.229.121.55 (talk) 06:24, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

Beyond a typical Democratic voting pattern, Kennedy wasn't known for being an environmentalist, and this article makes no mention of him as such. The debate over this project (which is still alive, contrary to your assertion), and Kennedy's opposition to it, is discussed in the Cape Wind article. It's also mentioned in Political positions of Ted Kennedy#Environmental record. Wasted Time R (talk) 06:54, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

"for cheating"

There's an edit war going on about this modified text: "In May 1951, anxious about maintaining his eligibility for athletics for the next year,[1] he had a friend who was knowledgeable on the subject take his Spanish language examination for him.[8] The two were quickly caught and expelled for cheating, but in a standard Harvard treatment for cases of this kind, they were told they could apply for readmission in a year or two after demonstrating good behavior.[8]" The dispute is about whether the "for cheating" addition should stay in or not.

It's slightly redundant, but I think on balance it's a good addition because it makes clear what offense he committed in the plainest, more direct language. The word "cheat" or "cheating" does not appear anywhere else in the article, and having it here also helps those searching for the details of this incident in Kennedy's life. The objection that it's undue weight doesn't strike me as valid, since it increases the size of this text only marginally. Wasted Time R (talk) 00:16, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

The most NPOV would be simply state the official reason for which they were expelled. We know they were expelled, but do we have a Reliable Source that states why? It could have been for cheating, it could have been for lying during the investigation (it's not the crime, it's the coverup), it could been for "conduct unbecoming a Harvard man", it could have been that this was the last straw after a series of incidents. What do the sources say? Rillian (talk) 01:23, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

Clymer, the source cited, says this: "But when Frate [the fellow who took the Spanish exam for Kennedy] got up at the end of the exam and turned the blue books in, with Ted's name on them, the graduate student supervising the exam stared at him. He knew him as Frate, not Kennedy. Perhaps no more than an hour later they were both called to the dean's office and expelled." Clymer, p. 18. However, he starts telling the incident with this simple, one-sentence summary: "Ted remembers not having a very good time his freshman year, and one day in the spring of 1951 he cheated on an exam." There is no other reason given for expelling him, and as seen, there was no investigation: grad student saw Frate, grad student reports him, dean expels Ted and Frate, on the same day and maybe within an hour. The cheating is the only reason Clymer gives for the expulsion, not bad grades, criminal activity, disruptive behavior, or anything else. Ted seems to have been admirably frank with Clymer about this, and Wikipedia should be frank with its audience too. Pirate Dan (talk) 18:00, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

An additional source: Richard Reeves, President Kennedy: Profile of Power, Simon & Schuster 1993, ISBN 0-671-64879-9, says in so many words: "The youngest Kennedy had been thrown out of Harvard for cheating." P. 324. Perhaps Reeves should be added to the reference section. I'll do it if we get consensus. Pirate Dan (talk) 18:18, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

There's isn't any dispute or question that Kennedy was thrown out for cheating. You look at this Boston Globe multi-part bio installment; even Kennedy's father said, "Don't do this cheating thing, you're not clever enough." Wasted Time R (talk) 00:03, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

"Poll about Kennedy's character"

Wasted Time: Are you saying that a news article from the New York Times citing a reliable poll is less of a source that an author's source? tuco_bad 22:56, 27 December 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cgersten (talk • contribs)

No, that one was fine, I just formatted the cite correctly. What I pulled out is this: "Kennedy expressed to reporters that he was content with his congressional leadership role and viewed presidential ambitions as farfetched.<ref>New York Times March 5, 1977, P. 1.</ref>" It's often the case that politicians say they are content with their current office and have no interest in running for president ... until they actually declare they are running for president. It's just a standard disclaimer that nobody really believes. So there's nothing interesting here and it's not important enough to include in an already long article. Wasted Time R (talk) 00:22, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

Brown in the Lead?

An editor removed a reference to Kennedy's successors in the lede, saying it was trivial.

While I agree that normally we wouldn't put info about a short-lived successor and a new-minted post-successor in a senator's article, I think this is an exception. Brown's election is a direct consequence of Kennedy's death, and it led to a huge shift in power in the Senate at a critical time. It cost the Democrats their filibuster-proof majority, and it will at least reshape, and possibly prevent, an extremely important U.S. health care reform law. The fact that Kennedy considered universal health care "the cause of my life" only makes it more significant in this case.

How about something like "His death led to a special election in which a Republican won the seat, depriving the Democratic party of its 60-vote majority in the Senate."

Pirate Dan (talk) 21:43, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

It's not trivial, but I don't think it belongs in the lead (it's already mentioned in the body of the article). The Democrats' filibuster-proof supermajority was something of a fluke in the first place (being due to Arlen Specter's switch) and both the gain and the loss of it had little to do with Kennedy. Nor did Brown's win constitute a rejection of Kennedy personally; note that Kennedy had survived his 1994 Senate challenge against a well-funded, strong candidate (Mitt Romney) during an anti-Democrat wave even stronger than the one we're seeing now. So even if Kennedy had lived and had been up for re-election in 2010, there's little evidence he would have been in danger. As for whether Kennedy's illness and death imperiled health care reform, that's a theme that's already covered in the body of the article. We'll have to wait to see how it all plays out to know whether it belongs in the lead as well. Wasted Time R (talk) 00:44, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Think about the purpose of the lead. Is Scott Brown's election really one of the most important things about Kennedy and his Senate career? -Rrius (talk) 01:00, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

In this case, Kennedy's untimely death was very important. If Kennedy were still alive, health care reform would pass in whatever form the Democrats could agree on. Now the agreement of at least one Republican is required, and that's going to be like pulling hen's teeth. Andrew Sullivan, a blogger for the Atlantic and an Obama supporter, called it the "crippling of Obama's presidency." But I admit, it is a bit early to judge; theoretically, Snowe or somebody might still come around in exchange for small concessions, and health care reform might escape with a few bruises. So I won't push the point; let's see how health care plays out first.

BTW, I agree that the Brown election wasn't a personal rejection of Kennedy (more a personal rejection of Coakley). That's why his death was so devastating for the Democrats; the fact that they had nobody equally electable to step into his place. Pirate Dan (talk) 02:51, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

His death is mentioned in the article, but the question I posed was not whether the his death was important to the health care debate or to the current news cycle generally. What I asked was whether Scott Brown's election is one of the most important things about Ted Kennedy. The lead is a summary of the entire article, and it should mention the most important things about him. Scott Brown's election is not one of the most important things about Ted Kennedy, notwithstanding the fact that the election is indeed noteworthy. -Rrius (talk) 02:57, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Kennedy served for 46 years. The fact that the successor to his successor was a Republican is hardly material enough to this article to be worthy of mention in the lede. That result and the effect on the Democratic caucus is potentially worthy of lede mention in an article about the US political situation in 2010 or in an article about health care reform legislation in 2010, but not in the lede of a biographical article about Kennedy. Rillian (talk) 03:17, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Events have indeed proven you right, and myself wrong. Pirate Dan (talk) 18:56, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

Chappaquiddick.

There is no mention of the alternative explanation for events at Chappaquiddick. Independent researches (and even some Police Officers involved in the case), have cast serious doubt on whether Senator Kennedy was driving the car the night Mary Jo died. One commentator summed up the case, 'If you take the statements by all those involved on the morning Ted Kennedy reported the crash, it makes no sense whatsoever that he was in that car when it crashed. The most likely explanation is that he gave his car keys to Mary Jo after the party and then walked home. Crash experts also state he could never have got out of that car after it went off the bridge'. Asked why Ted took the blame for the crash the commentator explained, 'well stop and think. He had given his car keys to a person who could be proven to be drunk. Either way he was in trouble. He just thought he was doing the chivalrous thing by taking the blame'.Johnwrd (talk) 03:55, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

Never heard that one before. Anyway, there's nothing we can do here without naming and quoting the cops and commentators. Try proposing this at Chappaquiddick incident, where the event is discussed in more detail. PhGustaf (talk) 04:07, 5 May 2010 (UTC)