Talk:Aleksander Laak

Wikipedia: Verifiability

There has been a continuous attempt at deleting sourced material and adding material that contradicts the sourced material. The general theme of these changes has been to put Estonians and Nazis in better light. This must stop. A Google translation of the Estonian language source indicates that the recent additions are not consistent with the provided sourced. This is all before we have to decide whether anti-Israel rant is at all reliable.--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 23:49, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

I reverted your attempt to delete sourced material, please familiarize yourself with Wikipedia guidelines, especially the one that you used as a header for this section. 100 000 murdered Jews is just idiotically dumb, as Nazis murdered in total about 10 000 Jews in Estonian camps.

Please avoid such highly loaded and misguided language like "anti-Israel rant" in the future, especially as the article in question seems to me very neutral.

--Sander Säde 07:28, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

Hey, you're just saying stuff for the heck of it. Your version includes content that is unsourced and content that contradicts sourced material. Both sources state that 100k were killed and you just revert to 10k, claiming your reverting to a sourced version and that 100k is "idiotically dumb." This denialism in the face of explicit sources is a chuptzah par excellance. --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 23:27, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

"This denialism in the face of explicit sources is a chuptzah par excellance" - yes, that can be said about you, indeed. How can 100 000 be killed in Jägala camp, when even the highest estimate for Jews killed in Estonia is 20 000 - and the most accurate estimate is around 10 000? You are basing the article in a couple of lines in a book review, ignoring all other sources that don't fit your point of view. Please see, for example, The German occupation of Estonia 1941-44, Holocaust in Estonia, The Encyclopedia of Jewish Life Before and During the Holocaust: Seredina-Buda-Z, page 1402, Overview of killing Jews in the camps located on Estonian territory (in Estonian, try Google Translate). All of these sources show how silly it is to claim 100 000 Jews killed in one camp. --Sander Säde 06:37, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

I hope the current compromise version is acceptable for you. --Sander Säde 09:19, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

That's not "compromise" and you know it. you just weasel-worded that the 100k is incorrect. I'm tired of these games. I don't know about the reliability of the sources you presented, and perhaps I'll take it to the RS noticeboard, but according to other sources I found it was 125k, not 100k that were killed,[1][2] and one which puts the number at 300k.[3] I'll update the article to reflect the latest findings.--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 15:54, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

Please stop these hostile and insulting comments now, or I will report you. Take the sources to any board you want, but you cannot blow off material that displeases you. If there are several estimates, then all notable numbers must be mentioned, not just the ones you prefer - like I did in the compromise version. As for your sources, one of them claims that Ain-Ervin Mere was in charge of the Jägala camp (!) "according to Russians", none of them mentions Laak - and the third one doesn't even have any mentions of Jägala camp - perhaps you should check sources before posting them here? --Sander Säde 16:15, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

Brewcrewer, you should really look for reliable sources before working on this article. There are plenty of interesting references listed in Holocaust trials in Soviet Estonia. If you are really interested in these issues, I may be able to send you a PDF version of People be Watchful.

As to the numbers, the 100,000 cited in the Guardian is most likely a typo. As to the real numbers, I will try to give the facts from memory. According to Soviet calculations the total number of Soviet citizens murdered in Nazi-occupied Estonia was 150,000 (or was it 125,000?). A large part of this was Soviet POWs (50,000?) who died in prisoner-of-war camps. This number includes the 10,000 murdered under Karl Linnas in Tartu. The number of Estonian Jews killed was about 1,000 - no-one survived in Estonia. In addition to these numbers about 25,000 Jews were imported to Estonia for slave labor or immediate execution and "gold mining".

I cannot find the source for the numbers for Jägala concentration camp complex. It was however not the only camp, see for example Klooga concentration camp. The number known to have been immediately executed under Laak at Kalevi-Liiva is 2,000. The German language Wikipedia (de:Kalevi-Liiva) states a possibly number of 5,000. The total number for Jägala is thus somewhere around or below 10,000. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 16:54, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

If one of Brewscrewer's sources puts the number at 300,000, ([4] it seems the book by the Canadian liberal-left polemicist - does the guy even know where Jägala is located? - then I have nothing else to do than to suggest Brewcrewer re-considering the sources he's using or tidying up his bookcase. If we take the rough estimate 6 million as the number of people murdered in Holocaust, then 300,000 victims would mean 5% of the total victims attributed to Jägala KZ alone. And this when the number of victims in the infamous Sobibor camp has been estimated as 250,000! Miacek and his crime-fighting dog (t) 17:34, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

The estimates of the Estonian International Commission for Investigation of Crimes Against Humanity are reliable and are used in other scholarly sources like this or this one. Miacek and his crime-fighting dog (t) 17:55, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

Wolfgang Benz has estimated the total number of Jewish victims in Estonia from 1941-1944 is around 8,500 “Die Gesamtzahl der jüdischen Todesopfer in Estland in den Jahren 1941-1944 beläuft sich auf etwa 8.500” the first book there. The total number of communists executed in Estonia was 4,700 (likely just shot, not sent into KZ). The numbers like 100,000-300,000 for just one single (and not really major) camp are so amazing, that I'll simply go and check information I get on the authors of such claims. Miacek and his crime-fighting dog (t) 18:02, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

One could try to add up the numbers like this:

• 1,000 Estonian Jews murdered
• 2,000 Jews from Theresienstadt and Germany killed at the Kalevi-Liiva site on arival
• 20,000 Jews from Latvia and Lithuania who passed through Vaivara concentration camp
• An odd number of other Jews, including French Jews at Klooga.

If I add up these numbers I reach at least 23,000. How many of these survived? -- Petri Krohn (talk) 20:59, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

Guys, guys, are you familiar with Original Research? All this analysis supposedly debunking the number stated by reliable sources is more of less irrelevant.--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 21:17, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

Please do not assume everyone here is a Estonian pro-Nazi Holocaust-denier. You might want to check who these people opposing you are in real life. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 21:52, 13 August 2010 (UTC)