Talk:Aleksander Laak

Wikipedia: Verifiability

There has been a continuous attempt at deleting sourced material and adding material that contradicts the sourced material. The general theme of these changes has been to put Estonians and Nazis in better light. This must stop. A Google translation of the Estonian language source indicates that the recent additions are not consistent with the provided sourced. This is all before we have to decide whether anti-Israel rant is at all reliable.--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 23:49, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

I reverted your attempt to delete sourced material, please familiarize yourself with Wikipedia guidelines, especially the one that you used as a header for this section. 100 000 murdered Jews is just idiotically dumb, as Nazis murdered in total about 10 000 Jews in Estonian camps.

Please avoid such highly loaded and misguided language like "anti-Israel rant" in the future, especially as the article in question seems to me very neutral.

--Sander Säde 07:28, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

Hey, you're just saying stuff for the heck of it. Your version includes content that is unsourced and content that contradicts sourced material. Both sources state that 100k were killed and you just revert to 10k, claiming your reverting to a sourced version and that 100k is "idiotically dumb." This denialism in the face of explicit sources is a chuptzah par excellance. --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 23:27, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

"This denialism in the face of explicit sources is a chuptzah par excellance" - yes, that can be said about you, indeed. How can 100 000 be killed in Jägala camp, when even the highest estimate for Jews killed in Estonia is 20 000 - and the most accurate estimate is around 10 000? You are basing the article in a couple of lines in a book review, ignoring all other sources that don't fit your point of view. Please see, for example, The German occupation of Estonia 1941-44, Holocaust in Estonia, The Encyclopedia of Jewish Life Before and During the Holocaust: Seredina-Buda-Z, page 1402, Overview of killing Jews in the camps located on Estonian territory (in Estonian, try Google Translate). All of these sources show how silly it is to claim 100 000 Jews killed in one camp. --Sander Säde 06:37, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

I hope the current compromise version is acceptable for you. --Sander Säde 09:19, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

That's not "compromise" and you know it. you just weasel-worded that the 100k is incorrect. I'm tired of these games. I don't know about the reliability of the sources you presented, and perhaps I'll take it to the RS noticeboard, but according to other sources I found it was 125k, not 100k that were killed,[1][2] and one which puts the number at 300k.[3] I'll update the article to reflect the latest findings.--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 15:54, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

Please stop these hostile and insulting comments now, or I will report you. Take the sources to any board you want, but you cannot blow off material that displeases you. If there are several estimates, then all notable numbers must be mentioned, not just the ones you prefer - like I did in the compromise version. As for your sources, one of them claims that Ain-Ervin Mere was in charge of the Jägala camp (!) "according to Russians", none of them mentions Laak - and the third one doesn't even have any mentions of Jägala camp - perhaps you should check sources before posting them here? --Sander Säde 16:15, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

Brewcrewer, you should really look for reliable sources before working on this article. There are plenty of interesting references listed in Holocaust trials in Soviet Estonia. If you are really interested in these issues, I may be able to send you a PDF version of People be Watchful.

As to the numbers, the 100,000 cited in the Guardian is most likely a typo. As to the real numbers, I will try to give the facts from memory. According to Soviet calculations the total number of Soviet citizens murdered in Nazi-occupied Estonia was 150,000 (or was it 125,000?). A large part of this was Soviet POWs (50,000?) who died in prisoner-of-war camps. This number includes the 10,000 murdered under Karl Linnas in Tartu. The number of Estonian Jews killed was about 1,000 - no-one survived in Estonia. In addition to these numbers about 25,000 Jews were imported to Estonia for slave labor or immediate execution and "gold mining".

I cannot find the source for the numbers for Jägala concentration camp complex. It was however not the only camp, see for example Klooga concentration camp. The number known to have been immediately executed under Laak at Kalevi-Liiva is 2,000. The German language Wikipedia (de:Kalevi-Liiva) states a possibly number of 5,000. The total number for Jägala is thus somewhere around or below 10,000. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 16:54, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

If one of Brewscrewer's sources puts the number at 300,000, ([4] it seems the book by the Canadian liberal-left polemicist - does the guy even know where Jägala is located? - then I have nothing else to do than to suggest Brewcrewer re-considering the sources he's using or tidying up his bookcase. If we take the rough estimate 6 million as the number of people murdered in Holocaust, then 300,000 victims would mean 5% of the total victims attributed to Jägala KZ alone. And this when the number of victims in the infamous Sobibor camp has been estimated as 250,000! Miacek and his crime-fighting dog (t) 17:34, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

The estimates of the Estonian International Commission for Investigation of Crimes Against Humanity are reliable and are used in other scholarly sources like this or this one. Miacek and his crime-fighting dog (t) 17:55, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

Wolfgang Benz has estimated the total number of Jewish victims in Estonia from 1941-1944 is around 8,500 “Die Gesamtzahl der jüdischen Todesopfer in Estland in den Jahren 1941-1944 beläuft sich auf etwa 8.500” the first book there. The total number of communists executed in Estonia was 4,700 (likely just shot, not sent into KZ). The numbers like 100,000-300,000 for just one single (and not really major) camp are so amazing, that I'll simply go and check information I get on the authors of such claims. Miacek and his crime-fighting dog (t) 18:02, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

One could try to add up the numbers like this:

• 1,000 Estonian Jews murdered
• 2,000 Jews from Theresienstadt and Germany killed at the Kalevi-Liiva site on arival
• 20,000 Jews from Latvia and Lithuania who passed through Vaivara concentration camp
• An odd number of other Jews, including French Jews at Klooga.

If I add up these numbers I reach at least 23,000. How many of these survived? -- Petri Krohn (talk) 20:59, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

Guys, guys, are you familiar with Original Research? All this analysis supposedly debunking the number stated by reliable sources is more of less irrelevant.--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 21:17, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

Please do not assume everyone here is a Estonian pro-Nazi Holocaust-denier. You might want to check who these people opposing you are in real life. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 21:52, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

P.S. - If you want to introduce reliable numbers as to how many were killed at the Jägala concentration camp or in total during the Holocaust in Estonia, please do so in the relevant articles first. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 21:55, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

I'm only interested in verfiability, not who and who is not a Nazi sympathizer. This much you can realize from this discussion where all I discuss is verfiability. I would appreciate if you can stick to the discussion of verfiabilty, and not veer off into your own analysis or defending against made up attacks. Thanks, --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 22:00, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

After having been proven wrong on all accounts by users one doesn't see agreeing that frequently (Petri, Sander, Miacek, Quasimogeneti ?), one would expect an apology or sth from you for your personal assaults like this or that.
Entering into the article that 100,000 Estonian Jews (!!) were killed in that camp (would make up almost 10% of the whole population!) revealed just how little you actually know of that topic.
And the idea that some newspaper sources could somehow compete with modern scholarly sources provided is ludicrous. We are not 6th grade pupils: that a newspaper itself is a reliable source does not mean we can take every claim in it for granted. Just how many of those authors know where Jägala is located? None of your 'sources' gave even remote hint as to how they got those numbers (one would like to investigate, how some author could be as dumb as to give 300,000 as the figure). Your opponents, on the other hand, explained from the very beginning that the figures in your sources are absurd, given that even the highest estimates of total deaths in Estonia is many, many times smaller than the figure you've been pushing as the number of deaths is one single camp. I think an aopolgy would be due here. Miacek and his crime-fighting dog (t) 10:22, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

number of victims

The number of victims should be discussed in article on the camp. Moved material there. --Quasimodogeniti (talk) 06:03, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

I actually agree. The dead attributed to Laak my be mentioned here, but a long discussion on the amount of dead in the concentration camp really belong at the concentration camp article.--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 19:57, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

Interesting opinion from 1960

I have been adding references from old newspaper archives using Google News. Here is something interesting, that I cannot be user as a source, as it is only a letter to the editors. I will add a link and a quote here for future reference. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 09:03, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

“ We all know that Estonia voluntarily joined the U.S.S.R. in 1940, perhaps under pressure, but the fact remains that when the Nazis invaded Russia in 1941, Estonia had been a Soviet Republic for over a year. ” — F. Chevallier, "Cites Discrepancies in Laak's Story". Montreal Gazette: 6. September 23, 1960.

Interesting, as a general matter. But I'm missing the relevance to this particular article.--Epeefleche (talk) 09:17, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

“voluntarily joined the U.S.S.R. in 1940, perhaps under pressure,” lol?. Miacek and his crime-fighting dog (t) 12:04, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

Photo?

There is an photo available here:

• Pat Nagle (September 8, 1960). "Laak Widow Suspects 'Outsiders'". Montreal Gazette. p. 4. Retrieved August 17, 2010.

I do not know if it can be used though. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 09:32, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

I added the image. Images of deceased persons can be used without much problem under fair use. —Quibik (talk) 13:38, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

Hey -- nice job, the two of you!--Epeefleche (talk) 15:43, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

deletion

An editor deleted as nonsense the referenced (in the body) information that he was viewed as responsible for killing 100,000 people. The editor suggested that it is called for only in the concentration camp article. I see no basis for that, and have reverted. The info is sourced. As it is set forth.--Epeefleche (talk) 15:45, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps you should read the discussion above. 100,000 is ten times more then the total number of Jews killed during Nazi occupation in Estonia. Use common sense and see the number as what it is - either a typo or sensationalist nonsense. Alternatively, we can bring back the whole section about the number of killed Jews and let readers make up their mind - whether to trust newspaper article and such or scientists dedicated to the topic. --Sander Säde 16:52, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

More likely the number 100,000 refers to the total number of people murdered in Estonia, which has been stated to be 125,000. Will look for reliable numbers tomorrow and write whole thing from scratch. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 17:52, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

It may be so, however I must say cannot remember seeing the number 125,000 anywhere. 1000 Estonian Jews, 15,000 Soviet POW's, around 10,000 foreign Jews, 1000 Estonian Roma, 7000 Estonians - roughly 35,000, a staggering number as it is, but less then a third of 125,000. Maybe 125,000 includes the Soviet murders, which is plausible, ~65..80k + 35,000 would come roughly to 125,000. However, this is purely my "math" based on conclusions of the History Commission, generally considered to be the most accurate source; and I don't claim it to be an absolute truth or anything like that. --Sander Säde 20:00, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

• Are we engaging in OR here? If the ref says it, I don't believe we let an editor's OR lead to its deletion. Do we have a ref with a different number? I would be interested in seeing that, and reflecting that as well.--Epeefleche (talk) 04:05, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

Do we have a common sense? If both old Soviet and modern scholarly sources agree on total number ten times smaller then some sensationalist book... This starts to remind me of "Human hand has five fingers" --Sander Säde 06:13, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

I am focused on the bio. If there are multiple RSs that present different numbers in regard to this one person, then present them all. No need to censor, or to engage in OR.--Epeefleche (talk) 12:07, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

None of your 'sources' compete with the findings of the international commission or specialists on the subject of Holocaust like Wolfgang Benz, i.e. sources that really treat the question in detail, explain, how did they reach particular figures etc., and are hence reliable. Warren Kinsella is not a scholar, but a blogger and political commentator. His opinions are not WP:RS on the subject of World War II or Estonian history. None of your 'sources' are, in fact (as Petri rightly put it, The Guardian might just have had a typo). And as for your strawman arguments on WP:OR, is it OR if you point out that the earth is not flat, bur round, in fact? Your sources have been rejected by users, simply because their own knowledge is enough to discard the figures taken out of the thin air by some authors. The idea that '100,000 Estonian Jews' (whilst Estonia had no more than 5,000 Jews in 1940) were killed in a camp with a few barracks is an insult to intelligence.Miacek and his crime-fighting dog (t) 12:28, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

The Holocaust in Estonia – Number of victims

I have created a section in the article The Holocaust in Estonia on the Number of victims. There is also a discussion on the talk page at Talk:The Holocaust in Estonia#Number of Holocaust victims. Why do we not all go there to discuss this issue! -- Petri Krohn (talk) 09:56, 18 August 2010 (UTC)