Talk:Civilization V

Removal of tables of Civilizations

So how about it? To me this is a clear cut case of WP:GAMETRIVIA. What say you all? - Oosh (talk) 02:24, 26 November 2010 (UTC)

Disagree. It's not really excessive detail. All it lists is the playable factions and leaders, it doesn't go into detail to explain what each ability or unit does or give strategies for each one (perhaps some of the columns could be removed, but not all the info in the tables). The list of civilizations is one of the main things to compare between the various Civ games. Additionally, most video game articles have a list of playable races/civs or playable characters (it's one of the main bits of information people look for).98.113.81.173 (talk) 03:36, 26 November 2010 (UTC)

People looking for it isn't a good enough reason. I just don't see it being 'essential to understanding the game', the lead-in text adequately covers the gameplay mechanic that there are different Civs with different attributes - I can perhaps see merit in a list of Civs and Leaders but certainly nothing more. - Oosh (talk) 04:01, 26 November 2010 (UTC)

As I was saying, I do think that some of the columns can be removed--Capital and the Uniques to be specific--but not the Civs and the Leaders. It's not just the information people look for but one of the main things to compare between the games and the game and its later expansions (as civs are one of the main things added in expansions). Additionally, it serves to show the type of DLC added to the game, as DLC is a new feature of the series in Civ 5.72.89.142.185 (talk) 22:34, 9 December 2010 (UTC) BTW both this and the post you are replying to are by me, Flygongengar Flygongengar (talk) 22:36, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

Yep, pure gamecruft. rm -rf. Thanks! Fin©™ 08:58, 26 November 2010 (UTC)

Agree. Remove. By any other name its a car list/team roster/character class list etc. - X201 (talk) 10:38, 26 November 2010 (UTC)

Completely disagree. It's just a short overview of the civilizations in the game; by no means is it the "game manual" it's being accused of being. Most video game articles typically provide a list of the playable characters, because that is some of the most basic information that is essential to a video game article; in this game, the playable "characters" are civilizations. Without knowing what the playable civilizations are, this article becomes woefully incomplete. —Lowellian (reply) 18:07, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

In an effort to further stimulate debate, I have flagged similar problems in the Civ4 related articles and invited them to join this discussion, as I feel a consensus reached in one should set a precedent in the other. -Oosh (talk) 12:18, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

I an effort to further this debate and get more input, I flagged the tables in the Civ 1, Civ 2, Civ 3, Civ 3 Play the World, Civ 3 Conquests, Civ IV Colonization, and Civ Revolution articles, and linked them to this discussion in the talk page. As it follows that the decision for this article would affect all those articles as well.Flygongengar (talk) 01:52, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

I actually like the tables with leaders and civilizations. Through links and piped links they help explain the historical inspiration for units and abilities in a way more easily done on Wikipedia than anywhere else. I know Wikipedia isn't able to cover all such connections there might be within a game, but I think to the extent that it is done presently in this article it is neither excessive nor disruptive to the the flow of the article. I do however agree with the removal of the tables with city-states and social policies, those tables were unnecessary.TheFreeloader (talk) 15:09, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

While I like the current tables a little (as long as the detail is kept low), I think a series-wide restructure of that section would be valuable. Specifically, could we remove the tables but convert (most of) their content to a prose-style paragraph? I realize that each table is a substantial amount of information, and it may not flow well under another format, but it seems like a reasonable direction to take on this topic. Currently, I lean towards saying that the tables aren't game-cruft or manuals (as long as their detail level is kept low); it certainly doesn't seem to expressly violate any specific piece of WP:GAMETRIVIA. $0.02 DP76764 (Talk) 18:15, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

I would consider removing the tables leaving an explanation of the civilization choice which determines your leader and special units, and give a few practical historical examples that can be linked back to specific history articles --MASEM (t) 18:38, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

Edit warring the tables

Graham's Hierarchy of Disagreement can help you to disagree in a more agreeable way.
Image created by a Wikipedian, based on an essay by Paul Graham

Guys, please don't edit war about including the tables. Please discuss the reasons for including or not including them here. In particular

1. Falcon, you are obviously a more experienced editor than Dark Peria but that is not a reason to come across all high and mighty.
2. Falcon, discussing this page on an individual users talk page is unhelpful.
   1. It adds to the high-and-mightiness problem by implying that the issue is with a user and not with the content of the page.
   2. It makes it harder for other editors of this page to see what is being discussed.
3. Both of you, just stating that what each other says is wrong or irrelevant isn't getting anyone anywhere. Try explaining why the tables are or are not trivia, rather than just stating that one or the other is the case. You are half-way up Graham's hierarchy of disagreement. If you can go a bit higher then we may find that we don't go round in circles.

Yaris678 (talk) 21:00, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

My argument is somewhat based on experience. When I first looked up the game, I expected to find this information. The civilizations and the differences between them are no minor element of the game. Cruft, if I am not mistaken, is defined as being information interesting only to a small audience, almost everyone reading the page will be interested in this information. Also, although this is not really an argument, the tables are convenient in linking to the articles related to the game elements. The Dark Peria (talk) 00:13, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

Your expectations and anecdotes of what people supposedly expect are not valid reasons to include what is clearly not core to understanding what the game is about in an encyclopedic sense. All that need be said is each Civilization has some unique attributes/units/building and one or two examples given. It just the same mannor the native laguages are mentioned and not listed ad nauseam. Oosh (talk) 03:51, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but I thought the purpose of an encyclopedia was to inform. This information is what is expected, and will be searched for, therefore, it should be what is found. The Dark Peria (talk) 03:54, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

You may find it useful to browse through some of the policies on what Wikipedia IS and what Wikipedia is NOT. While I agree that the Civilizations are a core element of this game series, style-wise for Wikipedia, it's not necessary to have an exhaustive list of each one. If people really want specific game details for this, they should be on CivFanatics, not this site. DP76764 (Talk) 04:47, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

Sorry for the delay, I wasn't informed of this discussion. The purpose of an encyclopaedia may be to inform, but at the same time an encyclopaedia shouldn't list every detail about every game. As an example, a lot of users may come to Wikipedia articles looking for cheat codes, but that doesn't mean articles should include cheats. Just because a user searches for something doesn't mean it should be included. As DP says, CivFanatics or Wikia is the place to go for specific details. Thanks! Fin©™ 12:14, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

Oosh, look in other encyclopedias. They include tables. Seems a stupid policy to not include tables in what is essentially, a website trying to pass itself off as an encyclopedia, when convention and reasonable reader expectation is that encyclopedia's contain tables.193.221.39.5 (talk) 23:24, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

I have no problem with tables per se and nor does wikipedia in general (AFAIK), the core issue is cruft/trivia, present it in any form you like (tables/lists/haiku) it does not belong in an encyclopaedia. -Oosh (talk) 01:13, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

First off, Falcon you were in the wrong for removing the tables as it was being discussed and a consensus had not yet been reached on the talk page. Contentious edits need to be discussed not just have someone go into an article and do them, hence the tag that was placed above the tables. Secondly, I understood Wiki policy to maintain the article's long standing status quo until a consensus is reached (which would mean leaving the tables in until it was decided). Thirdly, as suggested below, someone should request for comment/input from a video game project page as many many video game articles include a table with a list of playable characters and there might already be an established Wiki policy regarding such things.Flygongengar (talk) 02:10, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

A third party might end up being necessary.

The statement above the table seems to provide all the appropriate information for an encyclopedia, with the link at the bottom to the wiki providing detailed information for those who seek it. The wiki has two pages with all of the information in the corresponding table. It is possible that they would welcome the links to the Wikipedia pages for the historical inspiration of all of the data within the table but it isn't really appropriate for Wikipedia.

The specific gamecruft rules it violates are numbers six and ten, Lists of gameplay items, weapons, or concepts and Cast lists respectively. Let's look at the argument that users need this information when looking at this type of game's article. I scanned a number of other 4X games' articles and none include one or more tables listing each faction and their special abilities.

If the argument is that the historical background of each character and their special abilities need to be linked then let's look at other games with historical characters. The Dynasty Warriors games do not list that information in the main articles, instead they have a separate article for that. A sub-article like that could be made for the Civilization series, though I think it's fair to question whether such articles for such games are gamecruft themselves. I say so due to the factions and characters, as they relate to the games, not really being noteworthy.

Then there is the argument that some other game articles do it so Civilization should too. Most game articles on Wikipedia are pretty bad and I've yet to see a featured article with a character list. The cast is talked about in context where and if relevent (the plot section covering most of that). The Civilization articles in general tend to fall into the trap of covering overly specific information which doesn't belong in an encyclopeida. The "New Features" section in the Civilization IV article is a great example of what not to do. Instead of broadly covering the changes, it details each one in a manner which only players of the games would care about or, in some cases, understand. It's information that many Civilization players are interested in but not really anyone else, which is why it belongs in a Civilization wiki instead of Wikipedia. UncannyGarlic (talk) 07:35, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

The guidelines shoud be followed in this article same as any other. Until the guidelines change this article will not. -Oosh (talk) 10:14, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Proposed Change

In an effort to re-start the discussion above, below is roughly what I believe the Civs sections should look like without tables, and I envisage something similar for the DLC. Only listing the number of extra Civs released thus far, but highlighting the notability of the Babylonians for their inclusion in the Deluxe Edition and the Incans given their 'unique building' is double unique since it is in fact a terrain improvement. Oosh (talk) 01:45, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

Civilizations and leaders

There are 18 civilizations available in the standard retail version of Civilization V. The player chooses a civilization and assumes the role of its leader, based on prominent historical figures. Each leader of a civilization has a unique unit, another unique unit or a unique building, and a special ability. For example; China is lead by Wu Zetian who has access to the Cho-Ko-Nu unit (a Crossbowman that can fire twice), Paper Maker building (a Library that also produces gold), and Art of War special ability which increases the effectiveness and spawn rate of Great Generals. The player is able to interact with the leaders of other civilizations via the diplomacy screen, which features—for the first time in the series—fully animated leaders that speak their native languages. For instance, Augustus Caesar speaks in his native Latin and Montezuma speaks in his native Nahuatl.

Recognition of player reception

It's no secret people of both camps are very vocal about their views. I'm of the perspective Civ V is a non sequitur in the series and the franchise has been unceremoniously ended. I don't see why myself and others of my view don't get a fair say on this page. It is beyond obvious there is a significant portion of Civ fans incredibly unhappy with this fifth iteration, if you can even call it that. Browse the forums. Hell, even check out the Official Civilization Facebook page and read the replies to the PR posts. If you can label this reception as insignificant or just plain unworthy of a mention that just isn't right. In practical terms, consumers very often use Wikipedia as a first or early point of call. Without a shade of doubt, the description of Civilization V's reception on Wikipedia will be generating regrettable sales and unhappy customers. Stuntaneous (talk) 07:18, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

How many times does this need to be said? If you can provide a reliable source, you can add the negative reviews. User reviews are not a reliable source. Forums are not a reliable source. Replies to a Facebook post are not a reliable source. A lot of games have a very angry, very loud, minority of users. This does not make them notable. Thanks! Fin©™ 09:08, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

I am no seasoned researcher I am however a keen observer of other people. People are heavily disappointed and frustrated in droves. A significant number of Civ gamers will be talking about this event for years to come, it is definitely notable. It would be nice if someone could help out with such sources, perhaps yourself even. It would be extremely surprising if there was no "reliable source" to document this. Thanks. Stuntaneous (talk) 03:11, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

The sad thing is it looks like there really isn't a reliable source. All the mainstream outlets loved the game and like most reviewers played it a bit then never picked it up again. Despite the huge amount of negative reviews on sites like Amazon, and the tons of negative posts on the official forums and on fan sites like cifanatics, no reliable source has commented on this fan reaction. I agree with the Wiki policy that we need one, so I hope one eventually turns up. It's not just a non-notable minority as a previous poster stated, the fan reaction on any sort of outlet has been largely negative.72.89.142.185 (talk) 00:24, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

No, the sad thing is people are STILL using Amazon as a reflection of all Civ5 player's view. Yes SOME people are unhappy, but definitely NOT a majority. Yes, Amazon has lots of negative user reviews, but GameSpot was thousands of user reviews with the majority being positive (the game averages 8.5 or something on user reviews). Metacritic also shows favourable user reviews. Using Amazon as the definitive answer on player sentiment is ridiculous.193.221.39.5 (talk) 23:18, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

Okay, here's something:

[1]

72.89.142.185 (talk) 06:43, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

bitmod.com appears to allow user submitted articles, which will probably make it fail WP:RS. Also, this particular author only has *1* article (this one). Keep lookin! DP76764 (Talk) 16:14, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

Sullla (the author) is also known in Civ circles to vehemently HATE Civ5. There is also a conflict of interest as Sullla was dumped quite unceremoniously from the testing team after Civ4 and was not allowed back into Civ5 (I know, I was there). IMO, Sullla's opinion of Civ5 is extremely tainted with resentment, and this shows very clearly through his articles and website.193.221.39.5 (talk) 23:16, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

CTRL+F "Civ" Reddit post: "what is your biggest gaming disappointment" Stuntaneous (talk) 12:11, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

What of it? Reddit user comments in response to another users' questions are a long way from WP:RS. - Oosh (talk) 12:05, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

Ancient Korea

Who Put This in the dlc civs table I don't think it is true. I looked up civ 5 korea and I couldnt find anything about it. Please confirm or delete it. OttomanJackson User:OttomanJackson 15:27, 9 February 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by OttomanJackson (talk • contribs)

No Korea in Civ V as a major Civ, however Seoul is a city-state, possibly causing some confusion. Also, as with Civ IV, the modding power allows any civilization to be in game, and as Civ V has a more integrated, official mod-server, these mods might be mistaken by some for official DLC. Zakhalesh (talk) 20:19, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

A Modest Proposal Then

Well since this is yet another editor(s) arriving to "clean" wikipedia of dreadfully useful information. Why not just remove the whole article then. And all video game articles as well, and just relink them to "Video Game". After all the "real" encyclopedias wikipedians so desperately chase after like Gilgamesh to immortality, don't include individual articles on video games. Now consider: If you went and removed the list of the playable civilizations and expansions then consider removing that from ALL game articles. Colors from Magic the Gathering, classes from D&D, cast (ex. Yuffie, Cloud in FFVII) from RPG's... Then consider this information is similar to the main cast of say a movie or a list of characters in a book, so remove them. (After all we have imdb for that). I suppose we could expand this further... but I hope the point is made. Picking on Civilization V because you happened to come by it and wanted to stand on a soap box is not a good reason to go and change it. I would recommend prune the table to a list of Civilizations and Leaders. Then have a small list of the DLC that has been released (since every other game lists it's expansions. And DLC is an expansion.) Then maybe a bunch of you should sit down and actually make a template with guidelines on what goes in and does not go in a video/card/board game article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bloodycelt (talk • contribs) 06:44, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

We already have WP:VG/GL - X201 (talk) 10:14, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

Yes, but it does not have an explicit note on characters/factions, however I have looked at Age of Empires, Final Fantasy VII, Starcraft, etc. They all list each playable faction or character. And I would anecdote that it is an expectation. Furthermore it is common for Books to list the main characters (especially Point of View Characters). If the list is large enough or complex enough a seperate article is made just for those characters (and if the character is notable enough (Aereis/Aerith for example) a separate article just for them.) Hence I think if a table of civilizations is considered inappropriate then so would any table of playable characters/factions in any game and to me for consistency the same goes for Casts in movies and Characters in Books (Since they are essentially the same thing). And a global purge should then be done... but make this explicit in WP:VG/GL. (Then I don't have to get the headache of that stupid message and other similar warnings due to inconsistent guidelines.) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.208.188.68 (talk) 20:12, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

== OK Why not something like this (Fighting games seem to do this a lot).

Notes
1 ^ Came in Expansion: Play the World
2 ^ Came in Expansion: Conquests
3 ^ Came in Expansion: Warlords
4 ^ Came in Expansion: Beyond the Sword
5 ^ Came in Official DLC

Civilization	Civilization	Civilization II	Civilization III	Civilization IV	Civilization Revolution	Civilization V
Americans	Yes	Yes	Yes	Yes	Yes	Yes
Aztecs	Yes	Yes	Yes	Yes	Yes	Yes
Babylonians	Yes	Yes	No	Yes	No	Yes

(Addressed to the previous argument, not the table directly above) Please lets stop slippery slopes and drama. Some articles DO list characters or factions. However, those that do it well (and stylisticly best) do it in prose, not with a large table. In regards to the Civilisation series, I think a list of civilisations may be appropriate. That said, I don't think it's appropriate to list of all the capitals, unique units etc. The above table would be well placed on the series page. Muskeato 01:44, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

Well, it should be pointed out that the above table already exists on the Civilization (series) page and has so for quite some time before this debate began. However, as per the individual pages, I do not think that listing the units and capitals is gamecraft or even needless detail. The tables do not explain how they function in the game (which would be crossing the line). Yet, since the Civ series uses actual civilizations the mention of the units and capitals depicts how the civs change between games in the series and differ from real history. (Whereas, another article that includes a roster of fictional characters does not necessarily need this distinction as their uniqueness is implied). Furthermore, all the unit and capitals are notable enough on their own to warrant their own articles (which is not true for fictional characters) and the tables serve as a way to inter wiki link the subjects.Flygongengar (talk) 15:07, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

Professional vs. customer reviews: fundamental flaw in Wikipedia's guide lines

There seems to be a fundamental issue with WP:RS and video games here, and the whole thing about Civ V really proves the point. First, let me put my cards on the table: I'm also one of those who were extremely disappointed by Civ V, and I absolutely share the perception that the majority of Civ veterans feel the same. I've gone through the forums and (yes, how horrible!) also through the amazon reviews, and it's just ... plain and obvious. You rarely get a consumer reaction as significant as that! I've played this ... of a game myself, and I can confirm most of the other players' points: the details of my experience and those of other disappointed players' experiences overlap, meaning that there's something inter-subjective, vulgo objective behind all those rants. OK, you may doubt it and state (for whatever reasons) that, no, you're convinced that the vast majority of players actually loves this game, and forums and consumer reviews don't mean a thing. I can't validly proof my point, you can't validly proof yours. It's a draw. But I see what I see, and I know what I know. I'm OK with that.

On the other hand, I can also see that the professional reviews were generally enthusiastic. It's the more irritating for me as those very reviews made me buy the game and waste my good money. But apart from that, isn't it strange that there is such a hugely negative consumer reaction versus a totally positive, even enthusiastic reception by professional reviewers? At least a bit? What to make out of it? My idea is that it's not just a case of a corrupted reviewing process here, but that moreover Wikipedia itself is flawed and has become a multiplicator for marketing strategies. And that just by following guide lines that are definitely important and useful - in other fields, but not here. Why that?

WP policy demands to ignore forums, consumer reviews and the like and to consider and quote only opinions published in acknowledged media. Which makes sense in almost all other fields of knowledge. A reviewer of "serious" literature will rarely jump on the bandwagon of a hype, because works of literature usually don't come rushing into the market, with people waiting in queues on the weekend of the book release. It's no problem if your magazine oder newspaper gets its reviewer's copy a couple of weeks later than your competitors, for your readers will (normally) not hunger for the first and earliest review, or punish you for always being later than the other reviewers by not clicking into or buying your magazine any more. Most readers will rather tend to respect you for publishing competent and balanced reviews of these books. And they will measure the reviewers by comparing their former reviews with their own reading experiences. Here, the system usually works.

But what if there is a field where being one of the first to write about something counts much more than the quality of your review? That's the issue with video games. Gamers aren't known for paying subscription fees for magazines that have strict and transparent quality policies with regards to their reviewing process. What most gaming magazines need for their economic survival in the first place is clicks. Everything else (quality, competence, reader satisfaction) is just a means to generate clicks so that your advertisement clients see it's a good idea to give you money for showing their ads on your pages. And you don't get these clicks by writing about stuff three weeks later than the other magazines, however responsible and competent that may be. It's also safe to assume that gamers are generally more susceptible to hypes and less given to patient waiting than consumers in other markets (a bit similar to moviegoers, though). Now companies will hype their games for months in advance, fans will scan the magazines for news and early reviews, and naturally they'll click into those magazines that are most "up to date". If a magazine writes its review of game XY a couple of weeks after the first rush, they'll only get a small and negligible portion of XY-specific clicks, and thus will not be able to generate a significant ad income.

I think that's the problem here, because it produces a circle of corruption: with the important and prestigious games, the magazines need to be first reviewers, or at least publish as early as possible. But in the end, it's the game producers / distributors who are able to decide which magazine can be among the first because it's them who decide who will get their pre-release copies early (or not at all). They'll naturally favour those magazines that have shown their good-will in reviews of previous games of that company, and skip the more critical ones. (Actually, many consumers do something similar: there is a tendency that under the influence of hype-nosis, people really want that the hyped computer game turns out to be the greatest game ever, and they won't reward it if a reviewer says that no, it sucks, so better forget it.)

In the end, only those gaming magazines will be able to survive that write overly positive reviews, at least for the important games, the games of the big players in the gaming industry (big fish like Firaxis, but also distributors like Steam). They'll be more or less free to write really critical reviews for the games of small and medium-sized companies, for these do not have sufficient power to bend the process to their will. Here the system may still work. But for big, critical events like the release of an instalment of Civilization, the process will break down because none of the big internet gaming magazines will ever dare to challenge the companies on one of their main projects. (With printed magazines, the mechanism is similar, just without clicks.)

I want to stress that although I'm using the word "corruption", I'm actually not blaming the reviewers, or the magazines' editors, and not even the gaming companies themselves. The fault is rather with the system, and/or with the gullible consumer. But there is a fault here, and the article here suffers greatly from it. Wikipedia should not be that gullible, for it's bound to become a long-term multiplier for gullibility. And as for the presentation of all those positive reviews on the article page, that's a proof in point for Wikipedia's principle of "reliable sources" being able to be carried ad absurdum. This whole thing about Civ V shows that, in effect, Wikipedia can be turned into a secondary marketing instrument for big companies after all: not only despite, but rather because of a set of rules and principles that were established to ensure objectivity, but then get to be used too stubbornly and without discretion. ("Secondary": the primary marketing instrument is the corrupted reviewing process itself, and Wikipedia becomes secondary to that by adopting the material and its authorities one-to-one).

As for me and Civ V, after reading the Wikipedia article I'd happily have bought this masterwork of strategic gaming, couldn't go wrong here, right? Only that I have already bought and tried it and know what a total failure it is - an experience obviously shared by a significant number of other people, and, also significantly, for more or less the same reasons. And that to an extent that it should have prominently figured in the article's paragraph on the game's reception. That this didn't happen, that the guidelines didn't allow for that shows that those rules and guidelines have to be refined. Wikipedia guys (I'm not one of the flock): I suggest you make this a point of departure ...

Greetings -- 91.89.47.134 (talk) 07:06, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Your small essay on WP:RS, even if it uses Civ V as an example, is misplaced here. -Oosh (talk) 07:22, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

As per Oosh. You needed to have posted that at WP:RS as that is what governs the eligibility of reviews, not the Civ 5 article. - X201 (talk) 07:45, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Also agree with Oosh (also OP is tl;dr). Philosophy on what is/is not a WP:RS for game reviews doesn't belong here expressly. DP76764 (Talk) 14:51, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Hi & thanks for your feedback. I left a note & link at Wikipedia talk:Identifying reliable sources. However, I don not think that this "essay" is misplaced here. There is not only a flaw in the guidelines, but - of course - also in this article that was written in accordance with them. Greetings -- 91.89.47.134 (talk) 08:26, 26 July 2011 (UTC)