Talk:Federal Republic of Yugoslavia in the Eurovision Song Contest

Merger?

Should this article really be up. I know people have had thier differences on the subject of FR Yugoslavia and Serbia and Montenegro but, since the 1992 entrant for Yugoslvia is on the SFR Yuogslavia page, should this page be here at all? Sims2aholic8 (talk) 13:21, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

I ran into this problem yesterday when doing some cleanup with the Montenegro and Serbia templates. It is very confusing, but it seems like its basically Serbia and Montenegro. Maybe it should be merged into that article with a note that they entered under a different name? Grk1011 (talk) 14:37, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

The problem is that some people are saying that it's a different political entity than Serbia nad Montenegro, and that it's not the same as Serbia and Montenegro. Sims2aholic8 (talk) 17:07, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

We could say that the two countries entered under the other name, i take it that people assume its a different political scene, but its the same territory.Grk1011 (talk) 18:21, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

I think that this page should be merged with Yugoslavia in the Eurovision Song Contest, and making a note that the other countries left for 1992. Eurovision.TV lists it this was, and makes a note on 1992. [1] They also list the participation name in 1992 as just Yugoslavia. Greekboy (talk) 18:35, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

I agree with merging this article with Serbia and Montenegro in Eurovision. Not much is known about FR Yugoslavia and I don't feel it really needs its own article. Plus, its the same land mass as Serbia and Montenegro. Sims2aholic8 (talk) 18:51, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

As much as I want to merge it with Serbia and Montenegro, Greekboy makes a good point in that the Eurovision official site lists it as part of Yugoslavia. I don't know if we can really take it upon ourselves to decide this for it seems like the EBU has already decided. Grk1011 (talk) 18:59, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Since it is on the official site we should probably merge it with Yugoslavia then. Sims2aholic8 (talk) 20:19, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

This article should remain part of Wikipedia because FR Yugoslavia couldnot appear on the behalf of the SFRY. It is a simple fact. The article most certainly should not be merged with Serbia and Montenegro because Bosnia and Herzegovina was represented. I do not see what is the big deal with leaving this article stand. -- Imbris (talk) 21:15, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

But this is in relation to an EBU event which takes precedent since according to them, there was no difference. If it were merged, there would be ample description of the situation. Grk1011 (talk) 01:43, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

To clear up any confusion, we are now talking about merging it into Yugoslavia in the Eurovision Song Contest, as it appears on the EBU site with a note on the situation, and NOT Serbia and Montenegro page. Greekboy (talk) 10:41, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Oh yea, I forgot lol. Grk1011 (talk) 11:52, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Article cannot be merged to SFRY nor Ser&Mon

This article cannot be merged with Yugoslavia because the contestant had not represented the entire Yugoslavia (Yugoslavia dissolved even before the local contest).

On the local contest there were only contestants from the Socialist Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, the Socialist Republic of Montenegro and the Republic of Serbia (which dropped the Socialist from its name in 1990).

The EBU cannot decide for themselves because they list that appearance under Yugoslavia with the flag that contains the red five pointed star (symbol of the Socialist Federative Republic of Yugoslavia).

At that contest, that flag had not been used but instead of it a flag without the red five pointed star.

The contestant representing Yugoslavia at that contest had not represented SFRY but an unrecognized country of Federal Republic of Yugoslavia consisting only of the Republic of Serbia and (then) the Socialist Republic of Montenegro (which had not changed its name at the time).

Therefore this article cannot be merged in the Yugoslavia in the Eurovision Song Contest

At the same time this article cannot be merged in the Serbia and Montenegro in the Eurovison Song Contest because the contestant was elected to represent the Socialist Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina as well as the Socialist Republic of Montenegro and the Republic of Serbia.

It would be orriginal research to merge with both of those articles, and it would confuse users of this encyclopaedia to omitt the fact that it was FR Yugoslavia who contested.

Imbris (talk) 21:25, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Actually its original research to keep the other page because the contest does no acknowledge its existence, the same is true with "FYR Macedonia" which is used instead of "Republic of Macedonia" Grk1011 (talk) 21:30, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

No it is not the same with F. Y. R. O. M. because the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia was internationally recognized under that name at the United Nations. So EBU has no bearing over the name of the Republic of Macedonia, the United Nations have and all of the members of it.

It is not original research to keep this article under the existing name because this way is most un-biased and encyclopaedicaly correct.

The contest pages are not the Holy Bible and articles related to "one source" solutions are falable at its very start.

Imbris (talk) 21:44, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Can you please refrain from editing related pages until a decision is made. I can't keep making my point over and over again. Grk1011 (talk) 21:50, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Listing FR Yugoslavia under the name of SFRY is misleading and leads to acknowledgement of biased possitions. FR Yugoslavia could never have replaced SFRY, nevertheless of the current state of the EBU database on the Internet. -- Imbris (talk) 22:09, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes, you are listing it under SFRY. Yugoslavia in the Eurovision Song Contest article is dedicated to the appearance of SFRY in the ESC. Your merge of the article Federal Republic of Yugoslavia in the Eurovision Song Contest is what is misleading and furthermore biased. The article Federal Republic of Yugoslavia in the Eurovision Song Contest has the most correct title and content and is the only way to solve the sittuation without being biased towards SFRY and being biased towards Serbia and Montenegro in the Eurovision Song Contest. -- Imbris (talk) 00:32, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

I didn't get a chance to reword the article yet. Grk1011 (talk) 00:38, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

No rewording will change the dispute because FRY cannot continue the list of SFRY appearances. -- Imbris (talk) 01:17, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

It will because they will be Yugoslavian appearances, and there will be a note about the 1992 entry. It just does not deserve its own page. Grk1011 (talk) 01:19, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

I have seen deletion requests which failed if the result was not uninamouos also I resent the pushy tone of your previous edit. If an article deserves to exist is not up to you or me, have you seen lots of minute articles that make this encyclopaedia so great. The user can find almost any village, soon there will be streets :-)

Like articles Independent Olympic Participants at the 1992 Summer Olympics and the State of Slovenes, Croats and Serbs.

I think that you need to drop the attitude and praxis of using "one source" which leads to WP:SYN.

Imbris (talk) 03:13, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Unless you can find a specific source that says that FRY participated under that name and not Yugoslavia like in previous years regardless of what land mass they represented then you have no case. Grk1011 (talk) 10:49, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

The general rule with naming and spellings in the ESC related articles, is to use what the EBU uses for the events. Even though the land/political situation was different that year, they still participated under the name "Yugoslavia". It should be included on this page, with a note about the situation. Naming the article as "Federal Republic of Yugoslavia" would be misleading to what actually happen in ESC that year, since they appeared with the name "Yugoslavia". ESC is not a political event. Unless you can find information stating that they participated under the name "Federal Republic of Yugoslavia", it should be merged with this article. Using other information about the break up and such to make your point that it should have the naming "Federal Republic of Yugoslavia" would be original research in my opinion, since they are not directly related to the contest itself. Regardless, it does not look like this discussion is going anywhere, so we need an outside third opinion. Greekboy (talk) 16:09, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

The best way to resolve a dispute is to discuss the topic not each other, I certainly don't think anyone is acting in bad faith. I may be friends with Grk1011, but that does not mean I always agree with him on everything. However, I think a completely outside opinion as well would be best to ensure complete neutrality. My opinion is this: I have agreed with the position already established over the ESC Macedonia articles that the name the EBU should be used as the article's name as it is most in context to the article's topic. This does also follow proposed guidelines such as Wikipedia:Manual of Style (Macedonia-related articles). I don't think either titles in this case strongly "take sides" at a political level - and a merge is not that inappropriate if it is done in a way which follows WP:NPOV. WP:OR is more about article content and material so it not hugely relevant. Not many sources will tell you what title to use for an encyclopaedic article, but looking at the names sources use overall could help resolve this dispute - the most commonly used name often decides the article title. Camaron | Chris (talk) 19:58, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

I didn't ask Camaron to respond to gang up on anyone or to campaign, I was just hoping that since he's a pretty fair person and involved in Eurovision, he would be able to describe the situation from the Eurovision stand point better since I wasn't getting anywhere. Grk1011 (talk) 22:02, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

I am going to try an official merger proposal below just to let everyone know. Grk1011 (talk) 20:04, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Merger proposal

I am proposing that the article "Federal Republic of Yugoslavia in the Eurovision Song Contest" be merged into "Yugoslavia in the Eurovision Song Contest" because they were both entered into the contest as Yugoslavia and the article documents Yugoslavia's participation in the contest. Technically it is not the same country, but the body that runs the contest considers it to be the same. (the article will obviously be reworded to allow for this). Grk1011 (talk) 20:17, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

• Strongly opposed:

The entire point of Grk1011 is based on one (in this particular case) not precisely a reliable source. The merge would be in colision with other Wikipedia articles.

It is a very short way from listing all of the participants as Yugoslavia (which flag contains a red star) to listing all participants of Yugoslavia under the flag without a red star, as was listed on the eurosong.nl recently.

The facts are:

• The song never represented SFRY, not even on the local contest because SFRY dissolved well before.
• The song was presented under a plain navy blue, white, bright red flag without a star, and the star was the symbol of SFRY.
• Nevertheless of the caption or the "team name" under which the song was preformed the international community of the time reffered the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia as the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (Serbia and Montenegro).
• The merge thus cannot go with the Yugoslavia in the Eurovision Song Contest and nor to Serbia and Montenegro in the Eurovision Song Contest (because of the appearance's of preformers from the Socialist Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina (as was called at the time).

Sadly enough I have been forced to express my position at:

• Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard#Yugoslavia in the Eurovision Song Contest

And also I have hoped to persuade Grk1011 to drop the issue by conversing with thim at:

• User talk:Grk1011#Yugoslavia in ESC 1992 which contains my view in detail.

We have small articles on Wikipedia and the point that Grk1011 made - saying that this article do not deserve to exist shows his POV clearly and has nothing to do with facts but interpretation of a source that however interesting is not reliable in this particular case.

In other cases, like international sports (football for example) and Olympic movement SFRY has not been succeded nor continued by FRY.

I deeply regred that Grk1011 had not waited for a third opinion and started this proceeding in vain.

Starting this merger proposal during the summer holidays is a bad idea.

Imbris (talk) 20:45, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

• Comment: The "unreliable source" happens to be the contest's website and also the official published book about the contest. I don't know how he can contest that. Grk1011 (talk) 20:49, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

• Comment: The "Yugoslavian" participant competed for the FR Yugoslavia (Serbia and Montenegro) under the flag of FR Yugoslavia and not the flag of SFRY. So if you are still insisting on the participant competing for "Yugoslavia" (without notion to which Yugoslavia it reffers) then the flag is stopping you from doing that. Also if I had to choose between two bad solutions, then I would prefer to see a merger with Serbia and Montenegro in the Eurovision Song Contest. Then you explan, reword and reference there how much you want. -- Imbris (talk) 21:39, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

• Once again, this is not us deciding, the EBU already made the decision for us. Why don't you read the article. A quote: the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia was under United Nations sanctions but this had no effect on the European Broadcasting Union. The national selection had in fact only included artists from Serbia, Montenegro and Bosnia and Herzegovina. Despite FR Yugoslavia consisting of Serbia and Montenegro only, at the time of the contest the entry was performed for SFR Yugoslavia. It doesn't matter if you believe that it could not appear on behalf of SFRY, cause it did. Grk1011 (talk) 21:44, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

• EBU cannot decide anything regarding our encyclopaedical work, the Wiki community will decide based on the knowledge gathered in Wikipedia and the interpretation of reliable sources. Why have you omitted the fact that it was the appearance for FRY with the FRY flag, that is what the article states also. -- Imbris (talk) 22:18, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

• Also your reference in the article Yugoslavia in the Eurovision Song Contest is contradiction in terms with itself. Why would we belive Sietse Bakker and his recolection. Yugoslavia was not returning but Servia and Montenegro as he calls it. The last appearance of Yugoslavia was in 1991. The appearance of 1992 can easily go to Serbia and Montenegro in the Eurovision Song Contest. -- Imbris (talk) 22:26, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

• The old Yugoslavia won in 1989 with Riva and her song "Rock me". Last participation was in 1992 with Extra Nena. Quote from the source. Grk1011 (talk) 22:30, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

• From the reliable source which is not contradiction to iself and the known facts in other Wikipedia articles (and the general knowledge - for that matter). -- Imbris (talk) 22:41, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

• Strongly Support The EBU is as reliable as you can get for Eurovision information. They run the event. That is like saying that information about the Olympics from the Olympics official website is not reliable. As I said before, this page should be merged with Yugoslavia in the Eurovision Song Contest with a note in the article about the political situation. Regardless of the political situation then, they were represented under the name Yugoslavia and NOT "Ferderal Republic of Yugoslavia" or any other name, which should be used as the name of the article. Unless you can find a written source somewhere stating otherwise about Eurovision, and NOT another event around the same time, then your argument is useless in this subject as you are using original research, which is not allowed in Wikipedia. And please do not write the same arguments in the talk over and over. You stated your point clearly, lets wait for a third outside opinion. Greekboy (talk) 21:44, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

• I have found another source with supports the merger. According to this article from ESCToday [2] which writes about the follow up on the 1992 singer, it states she was represented under the name "Yugoslavia" in the Eurovision song contest regardless of the situation then, and the last singer to be represented under the "Yugoslavia" name. ESCToday is one of the most reliable Eurovision sites around, and they follow Eurovision very closely. This can not be an error too. Greekboy (talk) 14:19, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

• Support I know that it probably isn't the most politically correct solution, but the ESC is not a political contest. Although FRY had the same land mass as Serbia and Montenegro, the 1992 entry was entered under the name "Yugoslavia". We can debate this forever but we'll get nowhere. As Greekboy said, we need an outside third opinion. This needs to end. Sims2aholic8 (talk) 22:27, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

• Political correctness has nothing to do with the merge to Serbia and Montenegro in the Eurovision Song Contest. That participant "competed" for "Yugoslavia" but under the flag of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. Therefore it cannot continue the list of appearances of Yugoslavia under the flag of the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. The EBU maintains a database which was created by some IT specialist. That specialist organized the database as he pleased. I do not see that we should use this database as if it were an official document of EBU. Also you have to be aware that EBU considers the information presented "as is" (in the legal disclaimer). I do not have to find any written sources because they are already very well known and are written here on Wikipedia. As well the fact that before the article about FRY was created the participation of FRY has been writen under Serbia and Montenegro in the ESC (here on this Wiki). I do not support the idea that this has to end. I belive that no matter what Greekboy think this article can never go under the Yugoslavia in the ESC article. As an example of how Wikipedia works here is a simmilar case. Russian Empire under the name of Russia is separated in the "official" Olympics database from the Russian Federation. But this wikipedia combined the two and in the same time did not combine East and West Germany. -- Imbris (talk) 23:11, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

That EBU database has an error and Greekboy wants the entire World and this encyclopaedia to follow suit. He has an unclear vision of how encyclopaedias are created. They are created on the basis of reliable sources and other information in other related reliable sources. That EBU database marks the appearance under the SFRY flag which is uncorrect because that participant "competed" under the flag of FRY which is exactly the same as the flag of Serbia and Montenegro. Can anyone of you even remember that appearance or find more reliable data? If you can't please stop with this proposal. -- Imbris (talk) 23:11, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

We have the People's Republic of China and (officialy) the Republic of China (in fact Taiwan) but when we say China we mean the PRC and not ROC. Also when a two or even several women, men, chilidren have the same name (even the same date of birth) we know that it is the case of two or even several different people. Why do you insist on claiming that the EBU database (probably made by a meere IT specialist) is correct. Do you know that "Yugoslavia" in the ESC 1992 appeared under the flag of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (Serbia and Montenegro) and not under the flag of the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. I think that your opinion did not help us because you haven't noticed that in the EBU database this appearance of "Yugoslavia" has been listed under the flag of SFRY and it did NOT appear under that flag but under the flag of FR Yugoslavia. -- Imbris (talk) 23:23, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Also I would like to mention the Democratic Republic of Congo and the Republic of Congo. They are two different states. The list could go on and on. -- Imbris (talk) 23:23, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Third opinions

• The only reliable sources discussed in relation to the topic make it clear that the entry was accepted for Yugoslavia and participated under the name. This isn't the place to argue about whether Eurovision was correct in their actions and attribution. We should also avoid arranging facts to make arguments not made by the available sources. This article should clearly be merged. Vassyana (talk) 22:47, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
• Agree with merger. On the Olympics side (where Imbris has claimed there is a consensus), we have a single Yugoslavia at the Olympics article, which clearly distinguishes between the different teams that have been called "Yugoslavia" (YUG) at the Games. The same approach should be taken here—add text to the Yugoslavia in the Eurovision Song Contest that indicates that the name "Yugoslavia" has been used by the EBU to refer to multiple different nation-states. That article should probably have two infoboxes, one with the SFR flag and one with the FR flag. I can see how it would be offensive for the article to have only the SFR flag shown, but both SFR and FR entries are discussed. — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 23:59, 19 August 2008 (UTC)