Talk:Fox News

Category:Media_bias_controversies ?

Given that FNC is often the center of bias controversies, anyone think adding this catagory would be appropriate? NickCT (talk) 15:10, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

I see you added it to the FNC Controversies article which is sufficient. Arzel (talk) 15:36, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

This category is obviously appropriate. Added. Is this template primarily used to categorize actual incidents, or topics associated with "Media bias controversies"? //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 16:15, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

@Blaxthos - You could easily check. I think the answer is "both".

@Arzel - That seems acceptable. NickCT (talk) 17:28, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

Now that I've had some time to review the category... it appears that all of the pages in the category are either (1) about an incident of controversy in the media, or (2) about subjects of which a media controversy is the main component of their notability. Although some of us may be of the opinion that a major component of FNC is its reputation for being embroiled in copious numbers of controversies, I agree with Arzel and NickCT -- the controversy article seems like a better fit. //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 20:50, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

• Can't see any reason why it wouldn't belong in the category. Niteshift36 (talk) 23:17, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

Calling the News programs on Fox News actual News

Why was the [citation needed] part taken off? It's not actually news if they only report it from one or two sources. —Preceding unsigned comment added by KingofFlames (talk • contribs) 02:17, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

So if Robert Gibbs says something it is not news since he is a singular source? Arzel (talk) 13:41, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

In a world of Press TV, People's Daily and Russia Today, Fox News is not abnormal. The answer is to attribute "so called reporting" to its sources. Hcobb (talk) 18:59, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

On and off topic

"The poll found that regular Fox viewers and viewers of other networks shared this view. Regular viewers of Fox, however, were more likely to see other networks as liberal."<ref>Fox News Viewed as Most Ideological Network</ref> This was removed with the edit summary "Restore sourced comparison, remove NPOV violation of contex."

I do not see how this is an "NPOV violation of context." The source clearly states, "The perception of Fox News as mostly conservative is shared equally by regular Fox News viewers and regular viewers of other TV news networks....By contrast, regular Fox News viewers are more likely than those who tune into other news networks to see those networks as mostly liberal."

The restored "comparison" was "In comparison, MSNBC had 36% identify it as "mostly liberal," 11% as "mostly conservative," and 27% as "neither." CNN had 37% describe it as "mostly liberal," 11% as "mostly conservative," and 33% as "neither."" However, the source does not make this comparison. Yes, it states the figures in question. It does not compare them. Whomever added the information is offering up a comparison. - SummerPhD (talk) 17:42, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

• Why is it OR? It offers the results of other polls and they make a de facto comparison. Niteshift36 (talk) 00:43, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

Take a closer look at the source. Now, which figures should we include? All of them? Clearly not. So, some of them, right? Which ones? Which are the meaningful comparisons? Maybe the meaningful comparison is % of viewers of X who feel that X is neither liberal nor conservative. How about % of viewers of X,Y&Z who feel that Q is liberal. How about the differences between all views who feel that X is liberal vs. viewers of X who feel that X is liberal. We could pick thousands of pairings for thousands of reasons that thousands of editors feel are meaningful "de facto coparisons". No reliable source made the comparison selected for inclusion, the editor adding it did.

Any thoughts on what a "NPOV violation of context" is? - SummerPhD (talk) 01:30, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

• The reliablility of the source is the bigger issue here. You've changed from "it's OR" to a NPOV argument, neither of which seem to be an issue. CNN and MSNBC, which are FNC's primary competitors (ie the other 2 24 hour cable news services), are perfectly reasonable. 3 major news services, all 24 hours, all cable only, compared to each other in a brief summary. Niteshift36 (talk) 14:46, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

• The primary problem with not including the comparison in this instance is that the way SummerPhD presented the information one would be lead to believe that only FNC is viewed as ideological. The source clearly points out that this is not the case, and to state only half the story is a violation of NPOV. Arzel (talk) 17:34, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

• I agree. It's more POV to present only one side of the comparison. Niteshift36 (talk) 17:37, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

Thank you, that's the point I've been trying to make, but of course I was met with some opposition by some editors. JahnTeller07 (talk) 20:23, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

It's synthesis to make a comparison if the source material doesn't make said comparison, regardless of what you think the point-of-view is. WP:OR is a pillar, not something to be glossed over. //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 23:47, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

• It's not OR. It states one poll findings and states another polls findings. Nobody had to do anything to them. Just reword it. We do it all the time with other forms of the media. "Critical reception was mixed. Critic A liked the movie, but Critic B and C said it sucked." There was no article putting all 3 together, yet all 3 are presented in a balanced manner. I bet if the 2 polls confirmed what you wanted to say, you'd be ok with it. (this is where Blax starts whining about NPA, AGF, ownership and the rest of his tired song because nobody else is allowed an opinion). If you can't present both sides of the issue, you don't present either side. Take your pick. Niteshift36 (talk) 02:40, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

Attack me all you want, Niteshift36 -- you seem completely unable to respond without including ad hominem bullshit. Regardless, policy is policy; both SummerPhD and I have pointed out your errors. //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 15:44, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

• That's not an attack. It's a prediction that you'll do the same thing you always do. And the bullshit? Well, you bring plenty of it. You haven't responded to me with anything but personal bullshit and whining in a long time. You even dream up imaginary ad hominems. Go ahead and deny it and I'll provide the diff. Don't act like you act any differently than that which you complain about. Once again, all you end up supplying is a few laughs but nothin constructive.Niteshift36 (talk) 16:49, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

That is a fundamental misunderstanding of OR policy. All of that information comes from the second paragraph of the source in question. The only addition is the completion of all the numbers that are available from the first graph. You cannot call it OR when it is exactly what the article is saying. Arzel (talk) 16:40, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

• Unfortunately, the POV warrior doesn't understand that. Niteshift36 (talk) 16:49, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

Both of you: Please limit your discussions on this page to improving the article. If you have problems with another editors actions, please take it to their talk page (or, as necessary, other venues).

As for the issue at hand, the comparison "We do it all the time with other forms of the media. "Critical reception was mixed. Critic A liked the movie, but Critic B and C said it sucked." " is not meaningful as the critics are all discussing the same movie. A more telling comparison would be the fact that we do NOT, in an article about the movie, say, "Critic A liked the movie, but said that Different Movie X sucked." - SummerPhD (talk) 16:59, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

• And in this case, the comparisons are about the views of cable news network viewers. That is a reasonable comparison. Providing more than one example of the views of cable news watcher expands the POV, making it more neutral. How is showing just the results of only one poll (that just happens to paint FNC in a negative light) "more neutral". Niteshift36 (talk) 17:04, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, but any way you cut it you're trying to interpret multiple sources tp synthesize a new thought (not must "make a comparison"), which is absolutely prohibited. //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 17:06, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

• Sorry, they're not being interpreted. They're being presented as they were in the source. It's simple, if you can't figure out how to present more than one POV, remove them ALL. Niteshift36 (talk) 05:15, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

It is not "new thought". Seriously, the whole premise of the poll is that FNC is different than the others, simply including the results for the others are (which is available from the poll) is not synthesis. Obviously this is simply a case of WP:IDONTLIKEIT. Arzel (talk) 15:02, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

^^Agreed. Too much stuff is removed from political articles on the basis of faulty synthesis claims.Wikiposter0123 (talk) 19:42, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

Just because the two of you don't seem to fully understand what constitutes synthesis of thought doesn't validate your "IDONTLIKEIT" arguments. Two of us have clearly identified why your suggestions fail WP:OR, simply retorting with "nuh-uh no it's not" is not sufficient. //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 20:50, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

• I'd suggest you recount. It's not "the two of you" who don't get it. There are more than 2 who disagree. However, it is "the two of you" who are trying to remove it. Your opinion about what is or is not OR is nothing more than opinion. It's not "clearly identified" in anything more than your opinion. But you consider your opinion to be fact, while dismissing the opinions of others. It's not fact Blax. Niteshift36 (talk) 21:50, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

Three things: 1) this is not a !vote. 2) if it was, JahnTeller07 is a blocked sock of a banned user and doesn't count 3) any explanation fot what an "NPOV violation of contex" is yet? - SummerPhD (talk) 00:27, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

Three more things: 1) I know it's not a vote. I never said it was a vote, so you must be talking to Blax who is the one who started counting. 2) Since it's not a vote, your point about him being blocked isn't a point at all. 3) No real explanation about what makes quoting sources OR. Niteshift36 (talk) 01:37, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

1) I don't give a flying fig who is counting. I'm talking to everyone discussing the number of people going back and forth on this. 2) applies to anyone counting. 3) applies to MY sourced material removed as an "NPOV violation of contex", whatever that might be (yeah, I know, it's supposed to be "context", it's still word salad). - SummerPhD (talk) 01:52, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

• 1) I'm glad you don't give a flying fig. I corrected his "count". Spare me your misguided point about votes. 2) since it's not a vote, who cares? 3) How about if you give up on that and try to figure out a neutral way to present more than one poll result? Niteshift36 (talk) 02:00, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

""The perception of Fox News as mostly conservative is shared equally by regular Fox News viewers and regular viewers of other TV news networks....By contrast, regular Fox News viewers are more likely than those who tune into other news networks to see those networks as mostly liberal."" Are you saying that is NPOV? - SummerPhD (talk) 02:06, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

• Sigh....maybe if I type it slower....it can be reworded rather than removed. Niteshift36 (talk) 03:53, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

Double-plus ultra-sigh... (Masybe if I stick with short words?)... It is not clear what needs to be fixed. What does "NPOV violation of contex" mean? Can you say it in other words? If I do not know what is wrong, I can't fix it. - SummerPhD (talk) 12:56, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

• Since I didn't say it, why are you so hell-bent on demanding that I explain it? You don't need to use short words, just some common sense. Repeatedly demanding that I explain someone elses words isn't common sense. Niteshift36 (talk) 18:49, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

I did not address the question to you specifically. However, by saying, "It can be reworded rather than removed" you seem to have implied that there was something that should be reworded. If you have no objections, I'll simply re-add it. If you do have objections, please explain. - SummerPhD (talk) 20:35, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

If you are going to continue to point out my spelling error I don't think we will ever reach an amicable solution. Obviously I meant "Context" what the hell did you think I was trying to say? "contex" is not even a proper word. Your version is not a neutral presentation of the context of the poll. You are presenting FNC as if it exists within a vacumn. The main point of the poll is that FNC is different then the rest (no suprise there), but the ideological view of FNC is not that different from the rest (albeit in the opposite direction), which is the other main result of the poll. Now I ask, what is your problem with the current wording? It doesn't say anything or present any information that is not contained within the second paragraph of the source or the chart associated with that paragraph. Arzel (talk) 15:38, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

(My apologies. I was not trying to repeatedly point out your typo, I looked at your original edit each time (to remember your wording) and was simply too lazy to retype it each time.) My addition took the existing text showing that the majority of viewers with an opinion found Fox News to be mostly "conservative" and added in (from the same source) that the finding was not the result of other networks' viewers' opinions but was shared by Fox News viewers as well: "The poll found that regular Fox viewers and viewers of other networks shared this view." Meanwhile, Fox News viewers disproportionately saw other networks as liberal: "Regular viewers of Fox, however, were more likely to see other networks as liberal." I simply do not see that as presenting Fox News in a vacuum, nor do I see any missing context. To me it appears to be an accurate, neutral reporting of those findings.

The current text, OTOH, ("In comparison, MSNBC had 36% identify it as "mostly liberal," 11% as "mostly conservative," and 27% as "neither." CNN had 37% describe it as "mostly liberal," 11% as "mostly conservative," and 33% as "neither."[51]" presents facts about two other networks. So what? Well, the editor adding that info has selected those two networks out of the five others presented for comparison. Additionally, those two of five are compared based on one of the several breakdowns given. Long story short (too late!), I selected the only case where the source compared Fox to the others. The other text selects one of several possible comparisons one could make from the article. - SummerPhD (talk) 16:32, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

• There is no reason why different sources can't be used and, instead of saying "by comparison", just presented and let the reader make their own comparison. Niteshift36 (talk) 18:53, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

No, sir -- you still don't get what constitutes synthesis. By picking certain details to present to the reader (for comparison) is still implicit synthesis of thought. I direct you to the first sentence of the synthesis clause, which states: "Do not combine material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources." That is exactly what you're trying to do here, and it's a clear violation of policy. //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 20:23, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

• No, that is not what is being done if correctly written. If a conclusion is not made and it is neutrally worded, whether or not the reader decided to make his own conclusions is his own decision. You have cable news networks. If this were cars and I said "Ford sold 2 million Mustangs in 1992" (from one source) and in another sentence said that "Chevy sold 2.5 million Camaros and Pontiac sold 1 million Firebirds in 1992" (from another source), that isn't synth. It is a statement of fact. It isn't making a conclusion. If the reader concludes that the Camaro was the best selling model in that market segment for 1992, then that is what they concluded. I didn't make the conclusion for them. But offering facts alone aren't synth soley because some writers didn't utter them in the same article. Niteshift36 (talk) 21:37, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

Selectively choosing other networks for comparison, intended for readers to "draw a conclusion", is a violation of the policy I quoted above -- it is implying conclusions not stated by the sources. //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 22:58, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

• Who says it is the intent? You? Who are you to determine that? The facts get presented. If the reader decides to make the comparison, that's their choice, not yours or mine. Besides, it's fairly moot at this point since I provided sources below that do make the comparison. Niteshift36 (talk) 23:04, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

We are still stuck with one unavoidable problem. You are including material from the source that does not say anything about the subject of this article. This off-topic material has been selected over material from the same source that is actually about the subject of this article. That you wish to present a comparison between networks (the topic and some of the others described) does not change the fact that the selection of the comparison to present is unsourced. - SummerPhD (talk) 20:36, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

Arbitrary break

Ok, Summer, how about if you show exactly how you think the passage should read? Niteshift36 (talk) 22:36, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

• Here is a source that makes those comparisons: [1] "Nearly half of Americans (47%) say they think of Fox News as "mostly conservative," 14% say it is "mostly liberal," and 24% say it is "neither in particular." Opinion about the ideological orientation of other TV news outlets is more mixed: while many view CNN and the three broadcast networks as mostly liberal, about the same percentages say they are neither in particular. However, somewhat more say MSNBC is mostly liberal than say it is neither in particular, by 36% to 27%. The perceptions of those who regularly tune into these news networks are similar to those of the public overall. Nearly half (48%) of regular Fox viewers say the network is mostly conservative. About four-in-ten (41%) regular viewers of CNN describe the network as mostly liberal and 36% of regular MSNBC viewers say the same about that network.". Niteshift36 (talk) 22:56, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

• That survey was then the basis of two piece for Time magazine, one in their blog [2] and one for a feature piece [3], both of which make the comparisons. Niteshift36 (talk) 23:02, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

• Uh huh.....rapid fire posts until a source that actually makes the comparison is produced, then silence. Niteshift36 (talk) 07:41, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

Help me out here. Where in those sources is the direct comparison to MSNBC and CNN and not ABC, NBC and CBS? - SummerPhD (talk) 14:06, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

• Are you suggesting that a source can only compare Fox, CNN and MSNBC to be used? Niteshift36 (talk) 17:05, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

This is really going beyond the pale here. The first chart on the primary source makes the direct comparison of all of them. To say that the information contained within that chart must be exlipcitly noted within the text of the article is ridiculus when part of that chart is already explicitly noted within the text of the 2nd paragraph. If you have a problem with this take it up on the OR notice board. Arzel (talk) 14:56, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

A little help

For some reason I'm having issues inserting this link into the article:
www.imao.us/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/media_project_poll_info.pdf
Can someone show me how this is done?Wikiposter0123 (talk) 04:29, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

• It won't matter. That isn't a reliable source and would be removed. Niteshift36 (talk) 18:54, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

Here is a link. It is from the The IFC Media Project and describes the results of a Zogby poll. It seems to be reliable, but it would be better to use a secondary source that analyzes the results of the poll. When people say they trust Fox News do they mean the news reporting or the opinion shows? How does Fox News compare with all "mainstream media"? TFD (talk) 19:10, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

Zogby international polls are scientifically done and are reliable(as opposed to Zogby Interactive polls which are not). When they say most trusted they are referring to news shows, not opinion.Wikiposter0123 (talk) 19:47, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

• imao.us is NOT a reliable source. The poll may be reliable, but you'll need to find it somewhere else. Niteshift36 (talk) 22:38, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

Points of order -- "imao.us" isn't the source; they're simply hosting the PDF on the web. The source, according to the actual pdf, is The IFC Media Project. There's nothing that requires sources to even be available on the web, much less detailing what sort of hosting is required. I'm making no claim as to the content of the source, I'm simply pointing out that Niteshift is asserting an incorrect policy interpretation, and misidentifying the source. //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 23:10, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

• Then find it hosted on a reliable source, that shouldn't be difficult. How about if people actually try to use reliable sources for a change. How do you know if the operators of this non-reliable source, reproduced it accurately? If they were a reliable source, we could make that presumption. They aren't, so we can't. If I make up a wordpress blog and scan documents in, would you automatically presume that they were accurate? Niteshift36 (talk) 23:14, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

How do we know if they reproduced it accurately? Really? I see the poll mentioned constantly, Reliable Source, Questionable, Probably Reliable, Don't know,Probably Unreliable, Don't know, Probably Unreliable, Probably Unreliable . Are we just to assume that all these places are misrepresenting the poll?Wikiposter0123 (talk) 23:34, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

• Then why not use one of the reliable sources instead of a non-reliable one? Then there is no question. Niteshift36 (talk) 02:51, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

This whole thread is unbelievable. Niteshift, your argument about hosting has absolutely no basis in policy, and unless you have some credible reason to suspect that the report isn't authentic you're just being pointedly disruptive. So, what policy is this based upon? What reason do you have to believe the report is a forgery? //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 01:35, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

• You're being a lot of things Blax, but NPA prohibits me from listing them. Does the site meet RS? No. Can the same info be found in places that do meet RS? Yes. Simple solution, use the reliable sources and stop acting like a dick. You know damn well that if a site like freerepublic was hosting a document, you'd be complaining about it. Niteshift36 (talk) 02:51, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

1. Referencing how you could make a personal attack, but those pesky rules against such behavior keeps you from doing so, is just as bad as issuing the personal attack (and rather dickish). Can you just not help yourself?
2. You seem to not comprehend the difference between a source and a host. Let's try again: the source is what we care about, not if/where it's posted online.

It's really obvious that you're ignoring that distinction to disrupt the discussion -- it's not an argument based in policy, and serves no purpose. No need to respond -- you're just plain wrong. //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 04:59, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

• "Referencing how you could make a personal attack, but those pesky rules against such behavior keeps you from doing so, is just as bad as issuing the personal attack". No it's not. But if you'd like to run to WQA, be my guest. I'll just listen for the laughing....again. You know what, add whatever you want. The ironic part is I like what the poll says, I just think we need a more reliable host to ensure the accuracy. What is being put up there is a copy of a press release where someone at IFC decided what parts of the poll to share and some unreliable website puts up what we are going to accept is an accurate copy of it. That you don't want to find a more reliable source/host is odd. Niteshift36 (talk) 07:40, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

Do you have some reason to believe that this is a forgery? What policy supports your assertions regarding hosting location? //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 13:10, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

There is no reason to assume the article is a forgery, but we should not provide an external link to imao.us. TFD (talk) 14:01, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

There is absolutely no requirement to even have it available online, nor are there any policies that dictate what third party hosts are acceptable, so let's stop making up policies and disrupting discussion. The online link is nothing more than a convenience, and can't be used as an excuse to exclude an otherwise acceptable source. The IFC citation is enough on its own, without squabbling over where it is hosted; just leave the damn link out. This is the biggest WP:POINT violation I've seen in quite a while... //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 20:59, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

• You must not read your own responses. Niteshift36 (talk) 00:29, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

Niteshift that is not a response. You have simply mocked him for his post without providing a single argument for anything in it being incorrect. If you are going to attack other people for arguing against your position without providing a reason for why their position is incorrect then perhaps you should just leave.Wikiposter0123 (talk) 03:57, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

Blaxthos is the only one making personal attacks. The Orange Elephant (talk) 21:43, 6 August 2010 (UTC)