Talk:Libertarianism

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Taxonomy - take 2

Actually, it's now really names with differentiating attributes, but "taxonomy" sounds better :-) North8000

Beginning of editable section. Please free to make any changes (including deletions etc) within the format , please follow format

Common tenets (attributes which do not differentiate between libertarians)

• Greater personal freedom, especially from government.

<---I disagree. This is the right wing variation on libertarianism. Left wing libertarianism places an equal emphasis on freedom from corporate power and the privations of poverty. Both are perspectives on libertarianism that should be discussed.

• Reduced government (where "reduce" may include reducing to zero)
• Enlightenment values:
  • Humanist: centred on the person's place in the world
  • Secular: believe that the polity ought to be ordered by the polity, and not by religious establishments
  • Political: believe philosophy or social action capable of changing the composition of the polity and economy
  • Economical: believe the organisation of social production and the economic relationships between individuals to be a central issue of politics
  • Universality of law: law to not single out or elevate individuals, but rather be universally applicable
• Centrality of the individual to analysis, and as a grounding example and test case
• Self ownership (to varying degrees)
• Individualism

Groups and their distinguishing attributes

Subgroup label	Other common names, typically what they primarily self-identify as	Followers (historical and present, note if just one or the other) Listed individuals just generally follow this, i.e. not necessarily 100%.	OK with private ownership of land and natural resources?	Regarding items other than land and natural resources, OK with private ownership of those?	Reduce vs. eliminate government	Consider ALREADY-ACQUIRED wealth of "big business" to be an OK starting point?	Other differentiating attributes
right-libertarianism	present day single-word-considered-a-full-description "libertarianism", Classical liberal	Most people who self-identify as simply "libertarian" in the English speaking world. Boaz F. A. Hayek, Milton Friedman, Nozick	Yes	Yes	Reduce	Yes
classic libertarianism	historical single word "libertarian", "libertarianism"	Dejacque	Yes	No	mixed
Anarcho-capitalism	market anarchists	Murray Rothbard	yes	yes	eliminate	no	tendency to use Austrian economics
libertarian socialism	left-libertarians, libertarian marxists, anarchists	Chomsky	no	no	eliminate	no	tendency to use Marxist economics
Agorism	anarchists, libertarians	Konkin	yes	yes	eliminate	yes	Georgist economics
??	??	??	??	??	??	??	??
??	??	??	??	??	??	??	??
??	??	??	??	??	??	??	??

Meanings (here) of terms used

These refer to these terms when they are just adjectives / attributes of followers, not to: Where they self-identify their politics by this word alone, they should also get a line in the above table.

• Anarchism, anarchist, anarcho- (prefix) Advocate complete elimination of government
• Minarchist Advocate reduction but not elimination of government to a certain "night watchman" scope. .
• Deontological vs Consequentialist libertarianism Opposite views on whether prohibition on use of force is categorical.
• Right/Left (libertarianism): Varying meanings: 1. Make the distinction of proprietarian libertarians (right) vs. those anti-proprietarian on some types of assets (left), 2.consider an initial state of wealth of "big business" to be an unfair or bad condition achieved via un-libertarian means (left) vs. those who don't. (right), 3. Minarchist (right) vs. Anarchist (left), 4. Those proposing change from the status quo in a revolutionary manner. (left) Few or no libertarians of any type self-identify as "right", some libertarians self-identify as "left"

Terms, sects, strands, philosophies covered in the article.... libertarian significance, and are they libertarian?

• Libertarian Communist First use of (single word) "libertarian" in a term to refer to a set of political beliefs. Regarding libertarianism, probably a historical note only.
• Market Liberalism = classical liberalism = libertarianism, but term seldom used.
• Contractarianism Reflects on one very narrow concept, has no article.
• Individualist anarchism Seems libertarian, but seems like just a varying concept with varying meanings.
• Fabianism Not libertarian. But noted for including practitioners of libertarianism.
• New Left Not libertarian. But noted for including practitioners of libertarianism.
• Geo-libertarianism Addresses natural resources and wealth based on them. Is libertarian
• Georgism / Georgists Not libertarian per se, but a cornerstone of Geo-libertarianism which is
• Austrian economics Not libertarian per se, but a component of various libertarian philosophies

simplified.

In the US libertarian is just another word for classic liberalism or right wing liberalism since liberalism is already used by modern liberals. But there is a true form of right wing libertarianism which is a radical form of classic liberalism such as miniarchism and anarcho capitalism. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dunnbrian9 (talk • contribs) 06:48, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

Sounds like some good thoughts, but trying create and introduce here such categorical statements makes things more complicated rather than simplify. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 19:13, 10 September 2011 (UTC)

"The" vs. "a" dustup

Agree with Byelf2007 that it should be "the" but in my case for a different reason. North8000 (talk) 21:22, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

Rather silly thing to war over. In order to use "the", you'd basically require a broad consensus in sources that libertarianism is the one single philosophy in the history of man that upholds some ideal of "liberty". IMO, that's a pretty silly claim to try to make. It should be "a" for this rather obvious reason. BigK HeX (talk) 03:49, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

My reason would be based on "main conveyed meaning" rather than the pure-logical-dissection-driven approach which you are using.....by the latter I'd have to agree with your choice of word, but by the former IMHO "the" is more accurate. But on your first sentence, by common meaning, "a" is a statement that there are other significant ones that hold individual liberty as the organizing principle of society which one could claim would also have to meet that overly high hurdle for inclusion that you posited. North8000 (talk) 11:27, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

In order to say that there are others (and that should mean others of significance) they would need to hold individual liberty as the organizing principle of society, not just think similarly.

Lets settle this in talk. Not a huge deal, and I have not participated in editing. But if folks try to settle this by a edit war ganging up on Byelf2007, that would be a bigger deal forcing me to. So lets settle it in talk. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 19:10, 10 September 2011 (UTC)

There is nothing for anyone other than Byelf to settle. And unless Byelf is going to strongly source his claim that libertarianism is "the" ONLY such philosophy in the history of man, he should drop his silly attempt to get this in via edit warring. BigK HeX (talk) 22:25, 10 September 2011 (UTC)

I said "The only philosophy in the history of man"??? Do you consider hyperbole constructive? Byelf2007 (talk) 10 September 2011

This is a pretty lame thing to fight over, and this is probably destined for the lamest edit wars page, but here are my two cents: I think 'the' is probably better, per what North8000 has said. Toa Nidhiki05 22:46, 10 September 2011 (UTC)

I think the 'a' does not necessarily define libertarianism as one of several ideologies with similar views... Rather, it merely defines it as an ideology. Perhaps something like "Libertarianism is a political philosophy; it holds individual liberty as the organizing principle of society." would work as a compromise. Toa Nidhiki05 23:49, 10 September 2011 (UTC)

I lean towards 'the" but could live with "a". North8000 (talk) 00:31, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

That implies there is another political philosophy which holds individual liberty as the organizing principle of society. If so, what is it? The current classical liberalism definition doesn't quite match that. If there is, then this would be the appropriate starting sentence. Byelf2007 (talk) 10 September 2011

Libertarian philosopher/theorists

I suggest that Friedrich von Hayek, the author of “The Road to Serfdom” (1944) be included under 'Philosophers influential to libertarianism' and in 'Category: Libertarian theorists'.

'The Road to Serfdom is among the most influential and popular expositions of market libertarianism and remains a popular and influential work in contemporary discourse, selling over two million copies, and remaining a best-seller.' http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Road_To_Serfdom Peaceandlonglife (talk) 16:17, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

Support Byelf2007 (talk) 10 September 2011

Sounds good. North8000 (talk) 13:47, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

Definition

The Stanford site says that libertarianism is "the moral view that agents initially fully own themselves" and ALSO that it "can be understood as a basic moral principle". This means that it is, in effect, saying: "Libertarianism is the moral view which holds that the idea of agents initially fully owning themselves is a basic moral principle." Furthermore, because libertarianism is a political philosophy (applying to society), it is also, in effect, saying: "Libertarianism is the political philosophy that holds that the idea of agents initially fully owning themselves is the basic moral principle of society." I'm fine with this being our definition, but it is cumbersome.

What, then, would be a simpler definition? The idea of agents initially fully owning themselves is just another way of saying that agents have total liberty until they violate someone else's liberty (it doesn't say "agents always fully own themselves" as this would imply you could never punish/imprison someone regardless of their actions). Therefore, this can be re-worded (without losing any meaning) as: "Libertarianism is the political philosophy that holds the individual liberty as the basic moral principle of society." Byelf2007 (talk) 20 September 2011

I'm cool with the current lead. If someone has what they feel is a better idea, I'm also cool with looking at that. The lead should be high level summary statements of what's in the article. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 00:39, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

We need sources for the definitions provided. If you have a better definition that the one provided in the article then please provide it for discussion. TFD (talk) 00:50, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

173.52.212.151's edits

I have taken 173.52.212.151's sources to The reliable sources notice board. I believe them to be a mixture of unacceptable (Wikipedia is not a reliable source), primary/original research, and inadequate citation (I can't find the reference in a 400 page work without a page number: it isn't verifiable). In addition, the material 173.52.212.151 is adding is not appropriate per WP:LEDE, as it is an exposition of the Criticisms section. Do other editors concur with this assessment? Fifelfoo (talk) 01:00, 24 October 2011 (UTC)