Talk:Moon landing

Scientific background

This section isn't discussing the scientific background behind landing on the moon, it's a long, rambling section about mankind's history with astronomy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.243.220.22 (talk) 11:44, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

I agree this section is very overwritten and a lot of it isn't relevant to the topic. It could probably be removed entirely but it would be better if someone could rewrite it. Voiceofreason01 (talk) 20:26, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

references and inline citations

Does anyone know why the template for the unclear citations is on this article? The template is dated February 2008 and there doesn't seem to be a problem with the citations now. Does the template need to come off? Voiceofreason01 (talk) 20:10, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

For an article of this length, 12 inline citations isn't a lot. There are whole paragraphs which have no direct sources. --NeilN ^{talk ♦ contribs} 20:19, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Lunar Rover?

May I suggest including some info/pics on the US Lunar Rover (Apollo 15 Rover)? Seeing Astronaut John Young in the rover riding around on the moon was a phenomenal event and surely a major part of the moon landing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.106.157.118 (talk) 04:03, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Hi im 11 i live in New Zealand and this is my opinion about the Moon landing I have 2 words that can prove you wrong about astronorts NOT landing on the moon Neil Armstrong.He was the first man to walk on the moon,And if Neil Armstrong didnt land on the moon,Then why is`nt he trying to profit from his fake exploit by promotions and interviews.Because he doesnt want to make a cent!!!!! YEAH SO TRY AND PROVE THAT WRONG!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 118.90.42.108 (talk) 09:41, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

Use SI units

I think it would be a good idea to use SI units (km, km/h instead of miles, mph, ...) - what do you think? The non-metric units could still be mentioned in brackets. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.109.206.226 (talk) 07:48, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Removed Vandalism in Hoax Section

Removed "Some conspiracy theorists insist it was a hoax for some of these reason. In some of the pictures taken by NASA'S astronauts there are shadows from diffrent directions signifying that there were more than one source of lighting. Also when one of the astronauts was standing in the shadow of appolo 11 he was still clearly visibly even though you should not have been able to see him. Another thing that most conspiracy theorists use to claim it was a hoax was that the flag was waving when put in the moon this can not and will not be ignored by conspiracy theorists." Apart from being poorly written, it's just moon landing conspiracy rubbish. I believe that some amount of detail pertaining to the main elements of the conspiracy theories should be added to the Hoax section, just not POV stuff like the above. 24.128.82.57 13:16, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

List of moon landings

The last editor has a good point, Apollo 13 shouldn't be in that list as they never landed. If you are including Apollo 13 then you have to include all the other missions that went round the moon and it isn't appropriate. Ben W Bell 08:23, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Also, as far as I know, the list is complete, and the marker (or whatever it's called should be removed. The links to each of the Apollo missions, I think, also shows that complete information on each of the missions is only a click away. 68.227.80.79 22:45, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Removed as yes it is complete (though some conspiracy theorists may disagree). Ben W Bell 22:50, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

May I disagree on the above point- Apollo 13, although it didn't succeed, must surely have a mention as it was projected to land. There is no mention on the page of why there is no 13 on the list and it should be on the page somewhere? Andy

May I suggest calling it "the ill-fated Apollo 13" to highlight the mission was intended to land...fiddler —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.0.128.122 (talk) 15:35, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

I just want to know why we haven't landed on the moon since the 1970's? Shouldn't we have better technology to do it more frequently and efficiently now?

There is no reason for us to go now. It was a goal to show supremacy in the 60's and it has been done, all further exploration can be done by robots. We don't have the rocket power to get there anymore anyway.

Public Reaction

Is there anyone that can contribute any content that describes the general public's reaction to this event? Did this consume the mass media for the weeks and months to follow? Was this the kind of event that left an indelible lifelong memory of where you were when it happened? Thanks, Shawn 05:20, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

I agree, this was a huge event for the world; the first time a human set foot on a celestial body, something that has been worshiped as gods throughout history. At least the number of people watching the live event on television, I think the number was around 600 million but I can't confirm it. Sarke 00:02, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

Conspiracy Theories

How about some information about the conspiracy theories surrounding the moon landing? As I understand it, many people think it was a hoax. This may be covered on another page, but I can't find it. I'd add some info myself, but I know very little about it. Haddock420 09:00, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Here's a link to a credible site: http://www.braeunig.us/space/hoax.htm It thoroughly debunks the sceptics.

There are plenty of website debunking it, but shouldn't it be mentioned in the flippin' article? An alarming amount of people think it was a hoax.

There was actually, at some point, a section in the article on conspiracy theories but someone has removed it. I shall see if I can recover it and if it was good enough to keep in. Ben W Bell 07:07, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Okay I've recovered and added back in what was there originally but was removed. I think it covers it well enough and links to the page discussing the possible hoax where it is dealt with in more detail than should be covered on this page. Ben W Bell 07:12, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

did you see the photo of the flag waving in the wind on the moon? That should be debunked, too.--Make No Name (talk) 20:24, 7 December 2007 (UTC)Strike-through text

Er-- nice touch to put wires in the flag to make it look as if it was waving in the wind. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.0.128.122 (talk) 15:21, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

this is the photo http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2001/ast23feb_2.htm —Preceding unsigned comment added by Make No Name (talk • contribs) 20:32, 7 December 2007 (UTC) --Make No Name (talk) 20:51, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't get why NASA havn't just turned the Hubble space telescope around and beamed in on the landing site. If the landing really did happen, the flags, moon rovers etc would still be there as conclusive prove, but NASA are refusing to do this. Why? 09phippsj (talk) 14:13, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Hubble can't see it. The lander would have to be the size of a football field at that distance. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.12.190.74 (talk) 04:35, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Then why hasn't NASA explained this?Pumanike 21:12, 17 February 2011 (UTC)

All these conspiracy theory rebuttals assume that ANY sort of lander landed on the moon, not necessarily a manned spacecraft. They give genuine proof of moon landing just not humans landing on the moon. I don't doubt the landing but I wonder why no one has cleared this up. Beststarter (talk) 22:18, 20 July 2009 (UTC)Beststarter

There is a ton of evidence that man went to the moon. There are hundreds of pictures, dozens of hours of film, and hundreds of pounds of rocks that were brought back. I believe that that is more than enough proof. Plus, NASA doesn't want to waste millions of dollars just to send a rover to the moon to prove that there are foot prints there. And that would still not convince any of the conspiracy theorists. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.219.205.74 (talk) 20:28, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

Yet another proof that all this is not a hoax is that we can now calculate at any given time the exact distance of the Moon from the surface of the Earth. How you ask? Because the Apollo 11 crew installed a reflective mirror on which NASA (or anybody with a powerful enough laser) may point a laser to and depending on the traveling time, the exact distance is determined. Xionbox (talk) 21:24, 17 February 2011 (UTC)

More Conspiracy Theories

As recently as 12.28.2006, NASA is still seeking fake moon dust. http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2006/28dec_truefake.htm?list955127

LOL

StudyAndBeWise 05:08, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Masonic flag

um.. i've seen it mentioned several places that the masonic flag also went to the moon - can anyone support/refute this?

shhhh, its a secret! Brentt 04:20, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

The US Said...

From the article:

When Neil Armstrong landed in 1969, the United States said Clarke "provided the essential intellectual drive that led us to the moon."

This should be more specific as to who the speaker is. Its not good form to treat the US as a speaker in articles because the US isn't really a entity that is monolithic enough to "say" anything. Specific bureaus, administrations, officials and branches of government say things (e.g. congress says, being short for "congress passed a resolution stating", or the "Bush administration says"). But saying "the US says" just doesn't sound right. Brentt 04:33, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

What happened after 1970's landing?

I'm curious as to why we no longer go on the moon. Is it that pointless? Did we just do this to 'win the space race'? Piepants 19:38, 21 June 2006 (UTC)Piepants

Short answer is too expensive and little political will; yes for the most part pointless; and yes to win the space race. However, setting up a moon base (more expensive) could serve as a practical research and launch point for space missions if significant frozen water could be located. - RoyBoy ⁸⁰⁰ 01:36, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

To start with if the Pentagon can "lose" 2 trillion US dollars and no one cares (announcing it the day before the WTC attack may have 'coincidentally' obscure it from general awareness), then I would suggest cost may not be a a very good explanation. I won't get into your Federal Reserve System (swindle) here, but even with deflation of currency they could start from scratch and take the whole of NASA for just what the Pentagon lost in it's couch. Of course they wouldn't have to start from scratch (or would they?). Secondly, if by political will you mean of the people, they don't listen to the people (or bother to ask them). Thirdly, if it is pointless why are they planning to go back. This is all rhetorical, I don't need a response.

You dont need a response because you're insane. Seriously. You're simultaneously buying into every possible conspiracy in one paragraph and then smugly stating "you dont need a response" Have fun (although it doesnt SOUND like fun) living in that miserable alternate reality where everything is the machination of a shadow organization out to "get you". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.232.34.33 (talk) 16:17, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Recent Vandalism By Myself

Hi everyone. I edited this page and added a false claim to the introduction (regarding the conspiracy theories) about 3 minutes ago. I just wanted to say I didn't actually mean to do what it looks like. It's kind of hard to explain, but my teacher made a remark about Wikipedia earlier today and I wanted to prove a point. He said that Wikipedia is very unreliable because anyone can edit, etc. I'm sure we've all heard it before. However, he said that "I could even go to the page about the Holocaust and say it never happened; then it would be regarded as fact and never edited because people don't fact check things on Wikipedia." So thank you John254 for the fast edit--you just proved my point. Again, I realize this is hypocritical and I apologize. Saeghwin 20:06, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

It's not hypocritical, it's just... not a super duper thing to do. We have a document that addresses this specifically, WP:POINT. No worries, I know you were trying to actually cause trouble, and we appreciate your enthusiasm, but please don't do it again. If the subject comes up, just tell 'em about what happened this time or show them the history for a high profile article, there's usually some vandalism and reversion you can show as evidence. Best regards, CHAIRBOY (☎) 21:20, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

I guess we do have an article on everything. Heh...I wonder what you'd be saying if I had edited the Holocaust article instead. That wouldn't be quite as forgivable I imagine. Saeghwin 02:32, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

If I may, if someone isn't watching an article (as there will be for major articles) you can manipulate it to your heart's content until someone educated comes along and edits it back. Jachra (talk) 06:14, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

It just showed that the foundations behind Wikipedia are strong- with enough people looking over it stands more chance of telling the truth. An interesting point- if the Holocaust was deleted by a German user, he or she would be breaking the law in Germany, even though it would be quickly reverted back. I don't see a need to apologise or be ticked off, user Saeghwin was merely operating within the system and the system was resiliant enough to resist and carry on on the true path. The only problem with Wikipedia is that protocols are not clear, but that is because I have not really read the instructions myself.. I need a ticking off too......fiddler.. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.0.128.122 (talk) 15:31, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

I dispute the validity of Peter Shann Smith's claim to so-called "scientific proof" that the word "a" is in Armstrong's moon landing speech

Peter Shann Smith's claim to have proven the existence of the word "a" in Armstrong's speech is completely unscientific. For a start, the " original NASA audio download that Peter links to on Control Bonics' website is 8bit, 11kHz, a level of quality that a speech analysis researcher would be very unlikely to rely on to make a claim like this. Further, I would take issue with Peter's claim in his PDF that the noise removal process does not change critical voice characteristics. Does Peter know anything about the process used to remove noise from a recording? I doubt it, since he doesn't even use a spectrogram analysis of the audio in question to search for the true signs of a voiced "a", rather than original transmission or subsequent signal coding artifacts. Finally, I think it's a complete farce of Peter to claim his "research " is valid after peer assessment by an astronaut and a physiotherapist with a Masters in Biomechanics, rather than some well respected researchers in speech analysis. I am not questioning what phrase was actually uttered by Armstrong, but I am totally questioning Peter Shann Ford's authority, and his motivation. I suspect this is all a publicity stunt for himself and the Control Bionics company, if not also Goldwave. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.167.3.39 (talk • contribs)

Hi, yeah, there's quite a few people who dispute his claim. For a start, there's a whole field of Linguistics which deals with taking audio of speech and figuring out what was said, as in, the actual mouth movements. Phonology, I mean. It seems Peter wasn't as aware of the field as he should have been, nor of the fact that phonologists have been using computational analysis of speech for decades. I mean, I don't agree with the sentiment that his research was 'unscientific', I just think it was scientifically naive. There's some good analysis by professional linguists at Language Log: [1], [2], [3]. In any case, I think this article does a good job of staying away from the controversy.

I've recently replaced what were brakets around the a (like: (a)), with editorial brackets (like: [a]). I think this more elegantly brings across the point that it's what he meant to say, even if there's controversy over if he did. --Dom 21:01, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Given the cultural significance of the quote, I don't think a small explanation would be out of order. Something like:

(there is heavy dispute among the scientific community as to whether the word "a" was in the original transmission).

Or even:

There is dispute as to whether Armstrong used the word "a" in his original speech. The word was not present in the original recording, but this may be due to the poor quality of the transmission. Armstrong claims that he said it, and noted researcher Peter Shann Smith claims to have found scientifically proof that it was present. However, Smith's claims are disputed among academia, and the issue remains unsettled.

With citations, of course, for both points of view. -Patstuart 21:21, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Someone vandalized this article

I don't know how to correct these articles, and only registered to point out that someone rewrote/edited it to read that the first man to walk on the moon was an Englishman named Mr. Bean.

Unless history has been revised, I don't think that is correct.

Ox41234 21:55, 4 December 2006 (UTC)ox41234

So.. does USA "own" the moon?

what's with all the flag loving i see on the photos in mission articles. --Leladax 18:28, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

If you read the LEM plaque it says "We came in peace for all mankind". The US stated to begin with that our landing should not viewed as a declaration of ownership, and in fact originally multiple national flags were to be planted. However the selection process became so involved with trying to balance out equal representation without leaving out some and "hurting feelings" the entire idea was scrapped and just the US flag was planted. And the reason you see the flag everywhere? if you had just landed on the moon don't you think you would be proud of your country? Draknfyre 18:40, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Conspiracy Theories

I have placed the conspiracy theroies section into this article which was formely part of the Apollo 11 article. Andy120290 01:11, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm trying (probably in vain) to do something to sort out that most controversial of articles at the moment. It does strike me that the treatment in this article is actually way too much for a NPOV (given the weighting to minority views). Ii think it would be better in a link of "see also" magnitude, not a whole section taking up so much of the page. Before I'm shot, I'll sign out. LeeG 23:19, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

I think the conspiracy section should not try to refute the conspiracies, but rather, just mention them and point to the appropriate link. Jrbart 16:12, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

24 people?

Just doing a bit of clean up, and I moved a rather odd sentence "In the history of NASA, there have been 24 Astronauts who have travelled to the Moon." from the Hoax bit to the list of missions (seemed a bit more appropriate) but I am struggling to reconcile the number. Is 24 correct? It looks too big to me, but I have no direct knowledge one way or the other. LeeG 21:24, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

That presumably includes people who orbited but didn't land. Though I make that 27, not 24 (Apollo 8 and Apollo 10 to 17). I suppose Apollo 13 didn't actually go into orbit, but they did pass around the back to slingshot them to Earth.Mark Grant 21:43, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Oops, and I was forgetting that some people went twice :). Maybe that explains it. Mark Grant 21:44, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

I think that was where I was confused, I had assumed "travelled to" meant "set foot on" which is an entirely different thing. Thanks for the clarification. LeeG 00:37, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes. Here's the list of people who have gone to the moon, given as CDR, CMP, LMP

Apollo 8 Borman, Lovell, Anders Apollo 10 Stafford, Young, Cernan Apollo 11 Armstrong, Collins, Aldrin Apollo 12 Conrad, Gordon, Bean Apollo 13 Lovell, Swigert, Haise Apollo 14 Shepard, Roosa, Mitchell Apollo 15 Scott, Worden, Irwin Apollo 16 Young, Mattingly, Duke Apollo 17 Cernan, Evans, Schmitt

9 missions, but Lovell, Young and Cernan each went to the lunar vicintity twice.

Next moon landing

Should there be some info about China's prospected moon landing? Brutannica 05:30, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Is there much information about Chinese plans? There have been plans for various landings ever since the end of Apollo, but obviously none have ever come to anything.

I guess it might be worth having a 'future plans' section giving a brief description of which countries and companies have said what. Mark Grant 17:50, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Moon Landing Hoax entries in "See Also" section

I recommend that the explicitly named Moon Landing Hoax "documentaries" be removed from the "See also" section. There is already a link to the page addressing this issue, and if these are of any notability they should be found there. There is no need to name them individually. Having them listed on this page merely convolutes the "See Also" section.128.54.152.172 19:39, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Astronaut on ladder photo

I seen information that this photo was actually of Edwin 'Buzz' Aldrin taken by Neil Armstrong. The story goes that there could not be a photo or video of Armstrong coming down the ladder since no one was on the moon yet and this is just a mistake that gets perpetuated because it is more media friendly. There are no citations for where this photo comes from to prove it's validity as being Armstrong. If this can be provided and verified as being from NASA and not some other source that may have miss captioned the photo it should be provided. (IRMacGuyver 04:11, 8 November 2007 (UTC))

For the record, the Apollo 11 lunar black-and-white video recordings were taken by an electronic TV camera attached to the side of the lunar module near the ladder and later moved to a tripod stand. Video recordings were thus never "taken" by either astronaut. There is a single color film photograph of Armstrong, near the lunar module and with his back to the camera, that was taken by Aldrin; all other color photos were taken by Armstrong of Aldrin. There are two widely used video stills circulating today, one with the vertical sync bar in the middle of the frame and one without. Which of these is Armstrong, if either, is not widely known and would need to be certified by a NASA historian. 74.92.213.117 23:28, 9 November 2007 (UTC) rickyjames

Scope - Earth's Moon or any planet's moon

I would like to develop a clearer concensus on whether this article should cover landings on the moons of any planet, or only landings on the Earth's Moon. My personal preference is to tighten the scope of the article to just Earth's Moon, with the exception of a single section near the end mentioning that some spacecraft might also land on the moons of other planets, and on the surfaces of other bodies smaller in size than planets, i.e. asteroids. The current lead sentence which reads:

A moon landing is the arrival of an intact manned or unmanned spacecraft on the surface of a planet's natural satellite.

is not supported by the current article content, and although landings on those other moons are important, the subject of landings on Earth's Moon is worthy of an entire Wikipedia article unto itself. (sdsds - talk) 01:14, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree that it should restrict to the Earth's Moon. --Roentgenium111 (talk) 20:25, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

The article, as it is written, only discusses landing on Earths moon. In my view this is by far the more relevent and important topic. I have changed the article lead to a discussion of Earths moon only to better reflect the content of the article. Voiceofreason01 (talk) 15:51, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Use of color

How does the recently added use of color in this article comply with the Manual of Style, which at WP:MOSCOLOR reads, "It is also almost never a good idea to use other style changes, such as font family or color?" (sdsds - talk) 03:57, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

The above is NOT found in WP:MOSCOLOR as you claim!!! Please read the actual "color coding" section directly below your link - "It is certainly desirable to use color as an aid for those who can see it, but the information should still be accessible without it.". I therefore read the manual of style as saying that colour should not be used to convey information solely. The use of color here is relatively subdued, intuitively understandable, and as noted, does not cause colour-blind people to lose any information. Ingolfson (talk) 04:51, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, but look again! WP:MOSCOLOR is a redirect to Wikipedia:Manual of Style#Formatting_issues. The text I quoted above is copied directly from the current revision of the page. That section strongly asserts: Formatting issues such as font size, blank space and color are issues for the Wikipedia site-wide style sheet and should not be dealt with in articles except in special cases. The current use of e.g. <font color="Red"> does not appear to be in compliance. By the way I agree with your reading of the section below, which relates to use of color as the sole means of conveying information, and agree with you that this is not the case for this article. I would like to further point out that there are many tables of mission successes and failures in the articles within the scope of Wikipedia: WikiProject Spaceflight. It would be great if there were some consistent way these mission outcomes were indicated across all the articles. Using a template might be the right approach, eh? (sdsds - talk) 05:08, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Well, in this case, one MOS seems to conflict with the other which notes that the use of colour is "desirable". That should be cleared up, and my opinion is that Wikipedia-wide, colour should not be generally banned. As for templates, yes, that would be good, but I am not a common contributor to space articles, so I will let others do that standardisation. Ingolfson (talk) 12:10, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Proposal to remove the "Hoax accusations" section

1. It gives undue weight to hoax accusations which have no merit.
2. The sentence "However, it has recently become apparent that from the multiple scheduled or proposed governmental and private efforts to send landers or orbiters to the Moon, it is likely that independent proof will be returned, and conclude any conspiracy theories" is hopelessly naive; true hoax believers will never have their mind changed by any evidence.
3. In its place, a link to Apollo moon landing hoax accusations should be added to the "See also" section.--Goodmorningworld (talk) 14:24, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Oppose - Sadly, although the hoax assertions have no merit, they are notable. A way to give them appropriate weight would be to retain the section and the {{main}} link, and eliminate all but a brief description of the assertions and the best proof they are false, i.e. the Lunar Laser Ranging Experiment retroreflectors. The other paragraphs contain material which will likely creep in again; removing it is merely a cleanup chore. (sdsds - talk) 14:56, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

MIP Impact location

The article lists as impact coordinates:

000.00S 016.30E

However these numbers are apparently wrong ("Impact in southpolar region"). Are there any real numbers available? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.91.6.118 (talk) 10:59, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Listing (hard and soft) landings

I see MIP (ISRO) but there's no mention of SMART-1 (ESA) in the article ?... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.171.2.126 (talk) 16:00, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Return to conspiracy theory

Easy to debunk it all. If no craft went to the Moon the Soviets would have known from their tracking devices, in other words, they would not detect any radio signals coming from the Moon and would have voiced their suspicions (they didn't). One could argue that maybe a craft went up with no astronauts in it. So would it realistically have been possible to either fool the whole of NASA or (if they were in on a hoax) keep them quiet for 40 years?! Someone would have let the cat out of the bag. Easier to send the astronauts than make a movie to hoax it. Isnotwen (talk) 19:02, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

Why is this on the discussion page?

Vandalism in the article

I just created an account to report this paragraph in this important article that reads as follows:

"The United States space agency NASA achieved the first manned landing on Earth's Moon as part of the Apollo 11 mission commanded by Thomas Nowell. On July 20, 1969, Nowell, accompanied by Mohammed "pino" Shah, landed the lunar module Eagle on the surface of the Moon, while Lamin Bojang orbited above. Nowell and Shah spent a day on the surface of the Moon before returning to Earth. NASA carried out six manned moon landings between 1969 and 1972."

How does one correct this? I don;t think Nowell, Shah and Bojang were the first to land on the moon.... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Beckmutations (talk • contribs) 02:06, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Goal of humankind?

It says The concept has been a goal of humankind since it was first appreciated that the Moon is Earth's closest large celestial body.. That's going way too far. Most people who have lived never thought about it and didn't care. It became a goal (of some, at least) more in the 20th century. Saros136 (talk) 12:50, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Dubious portion of the article - reason for Apollo 8 change

The article states the following about the Apollo 8 mission changing to a lunar visit rather than a lunar module (LM) test:

However, believing from faulty CIA intelligence that a Soviet manned lunar flight was imminent in late 1968, NASA fatefully changed the flight plan of Apollo 8 from an Earth-orbit to a riskier lunar orbit mission scheduled for late December 1968.

This is not supported by most of the literature that I've read on the subject. What I seem to recall is that there were ongoing problems with the LM, and that it would not be ready on time for Apollo 8. If Apollo 8 were to launch on schedule, as things were planned at the time, it would essentially be a repeat of Apollo 7, and therefore a waste. Someone at NASA had the idea of having Apollo 8 orbit the moon instead of staying at Earth, which would allow them to test the command/service module (CSM) systems in a realistic situation. The political advantage it would gain may have been a consideration, but I do not believe it was the main one.

However, I do not currently have a reliable source in front of me. Therefore, for now, I'm marking that section with the {{dubious}} tag, in the hopes that someone might be able to clarify that section later. —MarsJenkar (talk | contribs) 22:43, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Here is one of many links documenting a CIA connection to Apollo 8. Just Google "Apollo 8 CIA" for more.

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1868461,00.html?iid=fb_share —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.1.36.53 (talk) 12:15, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

OK, I've read Lost Moon since my last post, and there is indeed a CIA connection. However, that wasn't the only factor according to the book, and as I stated before, not even the main one. As stated before, Apollo 8 was originally planned as a low-orbit test of the lunar module—but the LM wasn't going to be ready in time. It was George Low, a high official at NASA, who suggested the change in mission so that if Apollo 7 went well (as it did), Apollo 8 would become a so-called "C-prime" mission, and would fly to the moon. In addition, the crews of Apollo 8 and Apollo 9 were switched, as Jim McDivitt had already made it clear he wanted to test the LM, and Borman, Lovell, and Anders were working on the kind of high-altitude reentry maneuvers that would be necessary in the C-prime mission. —MarsJenkar (talk | contribs) 18:01, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

Need a volunteer to re-write the Intro

Is anyone who pays attention to this page feeling up to re-writing the intro? It had been tagged for ages, and contained an interesting Jules Verne quotation, which really needed to be moved elsewhere. I've stripped it down to essentials, but now it kind of sucks. Would anyone be willing to do a quick outline of the major points, as per wiki guidelines? If no one else gets around to it, I will try to tackle it in the next few days. --OliverTwisted ^(Talk) (Stuff) 08:56, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

Hoax dispute

Some claims can be empirically discredited by three retroreflector arrays left on the Moon by Apollo 11, 14 and 15. Today, anyone on Earth with an appropriate laser and telescope system may bounce laser beams off these devices, verifying deployment of the Lunar Laser Ranging Experiment at historically documented Apollo moon landing sites. This evidence indicates the deployment of equipment which was constructed on Earth and successfully transported to the surface of the Moon -- though a manned mission was not necessary to do so.

Please discuss before resuming any edit war. 74.50.94.234 (talk) 16:17, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

I have restored the reference you removed. Please do not remove sourced material from the article. By all means discuss the matter here. If there is consensus to remove it, fine. However, from your presentation, above, it is unclear why you think that it this should be removed. Please explain. Sunray (talk) 23:44, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

I also think this paragraph should be removed, and the section should just be a reference to conspiracy theories existing and a link to the page discussing them. I don't see a justification in this particular rebuttal being given space on this page, when none of the others are. Although the retroreflectors evidence may be empirical, it is not readily demonstrable. Unlike other evidence which can be readily shown - even repeated in the living room for the most part, or shown as a fallacy with common sense; it's almost impossible to make a convincing, mass public demonstration of the retroreflectors. All observers see is a graph on a monitor and not all observers have any possibility of procuring equipment to make their own test. As far as evidence to convince people who are almost bent on disbelief goes, it's pretty weak, and certainly not something to put it on this page when all other arguments are in a different article.

But having said my piece, I will take no further part in this debate, because in my experience, Wikipedia "oh, oh, oh... don't delete this paragraph" arguments are a hiding-to-nothing: consensus by complainers is taken to mean a requirement of universal agreement, although I doubt consensus was sought before adding the content. Tsuchan (talk) 10:56, 29 November 2009 (UTC)

Deliberate crashes..

"For example, during the Apollo program the S-IVB third stage of the Saturn V moon rocket as well as the spent ascent stage of the lunar module were deliberately crashed on the moon several times ..." How exactly do you crash something several times? 68.177.12.38 (talk) 00:41, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

I think they mean the third stages from several missions were crashed once each onto the moon to help calibrate the seismometers left on the surface. Stepho-wrs (talk) 08:43, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

India's MIP a hard landing?

India's MIP mission is detailed under the section titled "Recent unmanned hard landings". It appears that MIP crashed on the surface of the Moon, it was therefore not a hard landing. Should the section's title be changed?

Furthermore under the section titled "Unmanned landings" there is also the claim that the former Soviet Union, the United States, Japan, Europe, India and China have all achieved hard Moon landings (emphasis mine). Can anyone with knowledge sort this out? Thanks. Pristino (talk) 23:11, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

Successes listed as failures and double standards

Why are a bunch of Soviet missions where the goals were achieved listed as failures? For example, Cosmos-146, Cosmos-154, Zond-4 and Zond-6 all achieved their goals, despite various malfunctions. Then the double standards begin with Apollo 13, which failed to achieve its goals but is listed with some strange oxymoron - "Successful failure" (maybe it means failure didn't turn into human loss, but the mission still failed). Apollo 3 and 5 are listed as successes, despite uncontrolled landings which would warrant a "failure" for a Soviet mission. This article needs some consistency. If a mission achieved its goal, it should be listed as success. If it did not achieve its goal, it should be listed as "failure". Missions that achieved their goals but ran into problems should be listed as "partial success". It seems most logical to me, does anyone disagree with this? LokiiT (talk) 20:54, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

I agree that Apollo 13 should be changed to failure. That "successful failure" line of NASA's was PR. AmateurEditor (talk) 07:05, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

I also agree that Apollo 13 should be 'failure'. What are the goals of the Cosmos-146, Cosmos-154, Zond-4 and Zond-6? Using only the information in the article they look like they failed their major goal, even if they achieved lesser goals. From AS-202 (Apollo 3), it was meant to test the booster (complete success) and capsule re-entry (successfully recovered but indications of further work required). From Apollo 5, the flight computer failed but the other objectives were met. Re-entry was not required. Stepho-wrs (talk) 08:46, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Going by what the article says, Cosmos-146, Cosmos-154 and Zond 4's goals were to reach high-Earth orbit, which they did, but then failed to come back to Earth in one piece or at all. But some goals were still achieved, so those are semi-successes aren't they? Zond 6's goal was to circle the moon, which it succeeded in doing, then it successfully re-entered Earth but the parachute malfunctioned, killing the animals inside. Again, seems like a semi-success. Pictures were taken, data was gathered etc.. Also, some of these entries are unsourced so it's hard to gather accurate information on them. LokiiT (talk) 19:31, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

I have checked all the suggestions above. As they appear to have been implemented in full, I suggest this section is now removed from the discussion. Tsuchan (talk) 11:06, 29 November 2009 (UTC)

Apollo missions

Wouldn't the table of all Apollo missions in the section with that name be better in Apollo program? This article is about the moon landing, and most of these did not land on the Moon. Skylab and ASTP are particularly irrelevant to this article. The Apollo missions that landed on the Moon are later detailed in a table. Bubba73 (if u cn rd ths u cn go to my talk page), 05:47, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

I agree. This article is way too long and has a lot of details covered in other articles. Since this is an article about moon LANDINGS, I suggest removing everything to do with Earth orbits and moon orbits, leaving only missions whose goal was a moon landing. Some of the early ones which were meant to hit the moon but missed (eg Ranger 3 and 5) should stay. Stepho-wrs (talk) 06:41, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Or change the name of the article to "Moon Missions". AmateurEditor (talk) 07:07, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

In which case we should still remove Earth orbit missions. Stepho-wrs (talk) 08:34, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

I copied the table of all Apollo flights to Apollo program, but I haven't deleted it here. Bubba73 (if u cn rd ths u cn go to my talk page), 18:22, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

I think I favor "Moon missions". That won't require much change to the article except removing the Earth orbit missions. There is a lot of good stuff about the Moon missions that didn't land. And I would include the failures if they were intended to go to the Moon. Bubba73 (if u cn rd ths u cn go to my talk page), 18:33, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Is Conspiracy Theory Section Warranted?

Doesn't the conspiracy section violate WP:FRINGE and WP:UNDUE?ArXivist (talk) 19:31, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

I believe it IS warranted. I personally believe that astronauts walked on the moon but polls show there is a significant proportion of people who believe it was faked. There are also a number of books sold in successful numbers (I've read 'dark moon') and a number of books, magazine articles and websites which debunk these same books - that makes it notable. And this section is small, so it doesn't emphasise it unduely. Stepho-wrs (talk) 02:09, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

No, it is not warranted. Very few, if any, reliable sources claim that the Apollo lunar landings were faked. It doesn't belong. 03:08, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

The conspiracies, while scientifically laughable in my opinion, are very wide-spread. Like Stepho said, polls consistently show that a large portion of Americans believe the conspiracies, and there are vast numbers of books, articles, documentaries etc.. that focus on the conspiracies (whether for or against, this proves that it is a very notable subject). Removing this section would be detrimental to the neutrality and hence the credibility of the article. LokiiT (talk) 04:30, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

There is already a Moon landing conspiracy theories Voiceofreason01 (talk) 20:04, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

There is already a moon landing conspiracy page, there is no need nor is it appropriate, to summarize or discuss that page here, that is the reason the conspiracy page exists. A link to the Moon landing conspiracy theories page is already on the "see also" section. Voiceofreason01 (talk) 14:01, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

As Loki has said, the subject is notable. The existing paragraph makes it clear that this is a minority viewpoint, easily debunked, and points the reader to the main article. Why is it not appropriate? --NeilN ^{talk ♦ contribs} 14:06, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

So are you saying that in the Apollo program article, we should not have the Spacecraft, Saturn, Apollo applications program, Cancelled missions, etc., sections? After all, there are already articles on those subjects. --NeilN ^{talk ♦ contribs} 14:14, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

The hoaxes are pseudoscience, this is a historical and scientific article. A discussion of hoax theories is inappropriate. If all you want to do is link to the hoax article, there is already a link in the "see also" section a separate introduction for this topic is redundant. Take this opportunity to review wp:fringe. Voiceofreason01 (talk) 14:31, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

I suggest you take the opportunity to review WP:VERIFY - the threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. Part of the history of the moon landings is that a significant percentage of people believe that they were a hoax. As this is a historical article (your words), a short discussion of this belief is appropriate here. --NeilN ^{talk ♦ contribs} 14:40, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

The hoax theories are not true, ergo not relevent history when talking about the landings themselves. If the article was about moon landing conspiracy's then wp:verify would apply. Adding a discussion of hoax theories to this page is undue weight. Besides wp:verify requires a reliable source, see wp:sources. Reliable sources for moon landing hoaxes are few and far between. see wp:flat Voiceofreason01 (talk) 15:05, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

(outdent) Again, we're not after truth, only notability and verifiability. Take a look at the September 11 attacks article which is about 911. It also has a short conspiracies section. Please also read WP:WEIGHT - "Now an important qualification: In general, articles should not give minority views as much or as detailed a description as more popular views; generally, the views of tiny minorities should not be included at all". Hoaxers are not in tiny minority and a short paragraph is all that was present. Finally, regarding sources, it's pretty ironic that this article only has 12 inline citations while the hoax theory article has 121. --NeilN ^{talk ♦ contribs} 15:26, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

Dealing with wp:npov and wp:weight is a grey area. It may be appropriate to add a short section linking to the larger conspiracy article. The conspiracy section that was on here is not going to cut it though, not only is it lacking citation but doesn't meet wp:npov. Some rewriting should fix it. I am working on adding citations to the rest of the article but as you pointed out the number of citations is ridiculously small for an article of this size. Voiceofreason01 (talk) 15:49, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

conspiracy section

I realize that there has been extensive discussion about the hoax section but if we are going to include this section it should at least be well written. Why are we talking about the retroreflectors when the NASA's recent lunar orbiter has given us photographic evidence of the landings? And many conspiracy theories deal only with the manned landings, the existence of the reflectors do not defend against these arguments. The sentence speculating why there are so many conspiracy theories is pure speculation and isn't npov. I realize that it's important to compromise especially on more controversial topics but I can't believe that anybody is happy with the current version of this section. I would be more than happy to rewrite it but I don't want to step on any toes. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Voiceofreason01 (talk • contribs) 15:36, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

What I would do is take the lede of Moon landing conspiracy theories and summarize it. I can take a stab at it tonight (I think). --NeilN ^{talk ♦ contribs} 15:51, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

scientific background

Not only is this section completely uncited, it is much too in depth for the article; we don't need to know the history of the mathmatics needed to go to the moon. Further attempting to find and provide citations for a section with this depth and complexity quickly becomes impossible. In an attemt to make the article more concise and readable, I have removed a large portion of the "scientific background" section that I don't think is relevent to the rest of the article. This section has been largely unchanged for a long time and discussion about its problems have apparently been unfruitful, if I am overstepping my bounds by removing this much text please revert. The section I removed is posted below.

To an Earthbound observer, a Moon rocket on its launch pad seems motionless and the Moon appears to move very slowly through the night sky. These perceptions are misleading. Actually, both the unlaunched rocket and the Moon are careening wildly through space around the Sun at tremendous speeds, exhibiting numerous periodic motions both large and small. The non-spherical and water-covered Earth orbits around its own wobbling axis every day, has the Moon orbit around that axis every 28 days or so, and both bodies orbit the Sun every 365 days or so. Each of these factors (and many additional ones) have significant interdependent gravitational effects on the timing for all of the others - the so called three body problem. Performing a successful moon landing is thus like passing an undamaged egg between two riders aboard a dynamic amusement park ride such as a Tilt-A-Whirl or Scrambler - only much, much harder. All of the complicated motions of the Moon must be completely understood so the exact location and motion of a landing zone may be predicted for some future scheduled landing time. This is an extremely difficult problem in positional astronomy, effectively the homework that must be done before the test of an actual moon landing may be undertaken.

Mathematicians took millenia to complete this necessary prerequisite to a Moon landing. Their work began with the efforts of Babylonian astronomers, who compiled the first written ongoing lunar astronomical observations around 1500 BC as part of a series of clay tablets now known as the Enuma anu enlil. By 600 BC, Chaldean astronomers had discovered and documented the Moon's 18 year Saros cycle. Aristarchus of Samos first suggested in the 3rd century BC that the Earth orbited around the Sun, and based on his work other scientists of ancient Greece built exquisite lunar motion calculators such as the Antikythera mechanism. This initial progress was stalled by Ptolemy and widespread acceptance of the geocentric cosmology described in his Almagest, published around 150 AD. His inaccurate idea that the Sun revolved around the Earth was embraced by the Catholic Church because it supported the story of Joshua in the Bible and placed humanity at the center of God's universe. After being accepted for over a thousand years throughout the Dark Ages as religious dogma, the incorrect geocentric cosmology was finally overthrown for a return to heliocentrism espoused by Copernicus in his De revolutionibus orbium coelestium (1593). Galileo first identified moons as worlds that could be visited by publishing details on his telescopic observations of the moons of Jupiter and mountains on Earth's Moon in The Starry Messenger (1610), angering the Church's Roman Inquisition with his findings and dying under house arrest rather than recant his discoveries.

Using years of observations recorded by Brahe, the various motions of Mars in Earth's sky were accurately explained as the red planet being an orbit around the sun by Kepler in A New Astronomy (1609). This work guided Issac Newton to develop his key concept of universal gravity that controlled the motion of all objects on Earth and in outer space. After introducing the concept of gravity in one of the most important science books ever published, the Principia (1687), Newton went on to apply his new gravitational theory specifically to lunar motion in Theory of the Moon's Motion (1702) and to develop the concept of space launch vehicles as "Newton's cannonball" in A Treatise of the System of the World (1728). After a lifetime of work by Newton using his gravitational theory to describe the motion of the Moon in Earth's sky, many important details remained unresolved. Newton himself declared that considering the intricate details of lunar motion "makes my head hurt and keeps me awake so often that I will think of it no more".

After Newton's death other scientists went beyond his geometrical-based efforts and began describing lunar motion with mathematical equations, often motivated by prizes offered by various scientific societies and the British government. Various problems regarding changes over time in the Earth-Moon apsis were worked out by Clairaut, d'Alembert and Euler by the mid-1750s. Self-taught mathematician Tobias Mayer then cracked the riddle of libration, which makes it possible to see more than 50% of the moon's surface over time even though one side of the Moon is tidally locked to always face towards Earth. The libration mathematics in Mayer's book Theoria lunae juxta systema Newtonianum (1767) resulted in the first lunar almanac accurate enough for use in ship navigation and won the hefty sum of £3000 from the British Admiralty for his widow. Efforts by Lagrange to describe remaining errors in lunar motion theory were addressed by Laplace in his encyclopedic Celestial Mechanics (1802), where he correctly accounted for tidal acceleration of the Moon's mean motion.

Voiceofreason01 (talk) 15:37, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

I think that no-recent-changes to some section is not a reason to remove it. Anyway, maybe it is realy too big, but we should not just throw it away - maybe just link to it in a new page like Moon landing scientific background? Alinor (talk) 15:26, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

vandalism in Apollo 11 listing in table

Someone has inserted a name, "Joshua Kamine," in red in the listing of the astronauts on that historic mission, but the name does not appear when you try to edit it. Hopefully someone knows the trick that permits this form of vandalism and can fix it. Reggilbert (talk) 06:13, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

It would appear to have been fixed now. --OliverTwisted ^(Talk) (Stuff) 04:50, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

split Fictional Moon Landings

I think the Fictional Moon Landing section adversly affects the readability of the article; it's long and the unwieldy and doesn't really match the rest of the content of the article which is about actual moon landings and tends to be more technical in nature. This article also has continuing problems with length, and moving this section would remove a sizable chunk of text and the largest table in the article. Before I take any action or add tags to the article I wanted to find out if there was any consensus to moving the Fictional Moon Landing section to it's own article. Voiceofreason01 (talk) 19:51, 30 October 2009 (UTC) I agree with the proposal. The moon-landing article has a lot of content already without the fictional portrayal section. But it should be linked from this page. Tsuchan (talk) 10:26, 29 November 2009 (UTC)

• Yes, definitely move this to another article and leave a link from here to there. — MrDolomite • Talk 18:09, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

21st Century unmanned crash landings

In the 21st Century unmanned crash landings section are mentioned many US, ESA, India, China, Japan impacts, but the table includes only one. Eighter the table should be expanded to include the others or there should be explanation for the table-inclusion criteria. Alinor (talk) 15:33, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

Originally, the description after Apollo program was limited to landers designed for moon landing (except diversion from mission-ended orbiters). MIP was a only achieved (hard) lander designed for moon (hard) landing after 21st century before LCROSS. We must choose to add the mission-ended orbiter's crashes to the list or not. Either way, LCROSS must be added. Moreover, I think that all crashes after 1990s should be added. The relationship between Hiten and MIP is similar to NEAR Shoemaker(intentional landing after mission end) and Hayabusa(designed for landing). Which is more notable? Juxtapositional description might be acceptable. --Gwano (talk) 02:53, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

No mention of Robert Goddard?

I find it odd that an article on "Moon landing" makes no mention of Robert Goddard. I just added him to the 'See also' section. I trust that we will figure out an appropriate way to work in a concise writeup of his foundational contributions.--Tdadamemd (talk) 05:23, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

How about we changed the name "Moon Landing" to "Lunar Exploration"?

Or something like --Craigboy (talk) 23:03, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

See Exploration of the Moon. Gwen Gale (talk) 08:16, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

Both articles are in bad shape and should be merged.--Craigboy (talk) 01:44, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Neither article is in "bad shape" and they cover different material, I don't see any reason to merge. Voiceofreason01 (talk) 13:20, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Citation race and metrication of sections "Scientific background" and "Ranger Missions"

As specified by the MOS:NUM, editors should "Put the units first that are in the most widespread use in the world.", unless the sources use other units. This article, and especially these sections, do not have inline citations. Hence, it is difficult to check whether the sources specify miles per hour and pounds or km/h and kg. The inline citation race should now be started in order to determine which reference correspond to which section. In addition, contributors are encouraged to check the units used in the references and correct which units to be place first in the article. I will start this process and would be thrilled if more could join my effort. Xionbox (talk) 14:34, 17 February 2011 (UTC)

I removed the metrification tag that you added, it doesn't seem to be relevent since those sections do mostly use metric units. I agree that some sections need cleanup as far as being more consistent with what units we're using, but particularly the Scientific Background section is largely uncited, if you're looking for a project you should find sources for the numbers used in this section. Voiceofreason01 (talk) 15:17, 17 February 2011 (UTC)

I added the tag because of the presence of multiple occurrence of non-SI units without their conversion and did not have time right then to convert these occurrence. However, I will look into verifying these numbers. Xionbox (talk) 16:14, 17 February 2011 (UTC)

I've corrected all (or at least most) references linked to the Ranger Program. The rest of the article must still be referenced and/or corrected. Xionbox (talk) 20:30, 17 February 2011 (UTC)