Talk:Murder on the Orient Express (1974 film)

Suspension of Disblief

• A good story and Movie-yet if defies belief that the "unknown killer' theory can stand up forever when certain clues point to the other passengers:
• the knock-out drug in Rachett's body-which could only have been given to him by someone he knows-either his valet or his secretary {who have connections with the Armstong case};
• the 12 wounds-which point to stabbings done by different persons {right and left handed}: that at least 3 suspects are too physicaly weak to make more than effective cuts {Princess Dragonoff; Miss Ohlnson; and Denenham} and that three other wounds would point to someone with military {Arbotnott and Bedoes} or police training {Hardman}
• finally when the fact of Rachett's true identity eventually exposed as Cassetti-and that fact that of the 13 suspects-8 would have been prominetly featured in newspapers as being imvolved with the Armstrong case {except prehaps Michael; Arbotnott; MAcqueen; HArdman romance with the maid while Denenham could or could not have been identifed as Mrs Armstrong secretary by name} they happened to be in the same coach as the "Repulse murderer"...is just too much of coincidence...

Fair use rationale for Image:Orientexpress72.jpg

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BetacommandBot 02:37, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Orient Princess.jpg

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BetacommandBot 05:13, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Hercul20Poirot3.jpg

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BetacommandBot (talk) 17:43, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Murder 16.jpg

Image:Murder 16.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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BetacommandBot (talk) 19:14, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Orientexpress72.jpg

Image:Orientexpress72.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 19:30, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Kevin Bacon and other trivia

I've removed the list of actor collaborations as inane trivia. At best, it's material for the actors' pages. Point to a GA or FA and maybe I'd reconsider.

As for the list of differences between the novel and movie: lacking citations, it's superfluous original research and trivia. If a third-party scholar has observed that changes between the media, or in transitioning from one medium to another, had a significant impact on the narrative, then great -- cite and include it. Otherwise, again, it's an indiscriminate list of first-hand observations. --EEMIV (talk) 22:45, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Why does wikipedia have to be so formal? What about the fun element? I do find it interesting to know how often the actors and directors have worked together over the years and find it quite ironic that Balsam (investigating a murder) should again suspect Perkins whom he suspected in Hitchcock's Psycho. The differences between the novel and the film are not indifferent. Some historical films entries on wikipedia do point out the differences betweeen fact and fiction, so why not fiction and fiction?--Marktreut (talk) 12:52, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

Because of things like content guidelines -- e.g. WP:MOSFILM -- that are derived from editor consensus. If you think things like quotes, actors' other shared projects, etc. are appropriate for an encyclopedic entry, bring it up on the film project's content guideline talk page. --EEMIV (talk) 13:16, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

Marktreut, your question about WP's "formality" is pertinent: this is an encyclopedia with guidelines and rules developed by consensus among the editors. Relevant to your ideas for enhancing this article with "fun" information, it has a guideline about film adaptations, which strongly recommends against "differences between novel and film" sections unless they contain real-world context and are supported by credible sources. For instance, it might be interesting that the film's plot development is streamlined in comparison to the novel's pace (but isn't that true of almost every adaptation) if additional information about why and how it was streamlined was included. This would be valuable to an "Adaptation" subsection in the "Production" section. What decisions did John Brabourne, Paul Dehn, and Sidney Lumet make in bringing Christie's story to the screen? Do those decisions detract from or enhance the viewing experience? Combine that perspective with information like Christie's opinion and the article really becomes "fun".

Initially, these observations such as yours are the seed for enhancements like this. However, rather than placing an editor's personal analysis (comparison) and opinion – and contextless – statement in the article, start looking for some credible sources that support (or counter) your observation and use them to develop the article further. Why did Dehn choose to to open the story on the ferry and not the train? Do the differences in ages of some of the actors (film characters, actually) make a difference in the effectiveness of the story in comparison to the novel? And who thinks so? Providing context for the issues you've identified will most certainly add to this article and make it more fun.
Jim Dunning | talk 15:47, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

Rather than get into an edit war on this, let's discuss. Marktreut has listed a number of "differences" between the novel and its adaptation. Since there must be differences in any adaptation given the limitations and opportunities inherent in each format (print vs. film in this case) and the authors' (novelist vs. producer/screenwriter/director/actors) creative actions, by definition an adaptation will necessarily be "different". Consequently, there are an infinite number of "differences" between the two works, so what is the threshold for deciding what is a difference appropriate for inclusion in a WP article? Fortunately, we as WP editors don't have to make that decision — because we can't. So we must rely on credible sources (i.e., critics) to make that decision.

For example, in the No Country for Old Men film article an editor thought that the Coens's deletion of a hitchhiker character from the novel was an adaptation difference worth noting. However, the editor failed to note that the Coens also added a similarly minor female character (poolside sunbather) into the film who some have interpreted as fulfilling the same function of sexual temptation for Llewelyn. Yes, the character's location has changed from truck cab to poolside and put on a bikini, but how are those "differences" significant in comparison to the fact that the Coens retained the "fall-from-grace" theme of the novel in the film with relatively small changes? So what's the real difference there? It might make interesting dinner-after-theatre conversation to say, "Did you notice that they cut the hitchhiker out?" (maybe). However, even in a ninth grade English classroom few teachers would accept that answer when asking students about differences between the novel and film. Let's just say the teacher is looking for Differences, not differences. The ninth grade teacher would ask why were the superficial changes made? What effect do those differences have on the impact of the relevant theme? She would not be satisfied with the surface changes, especially when the more significant theme is retained (or not).

I don't remember a similar level of detail about The Orient Express to know if some of the differences Marktreut has identified have relevant Differences attached to them, but that would be the more valuable information to know. Do Hubbard's and Foscarelli's name changes matter to the reading/viewing experience? By themselves, not likely. But it might be interesting to know why those changes were made (and, then again, maybe not). But let's put things truly in perspective. Sixteen "differences" were identified in the article. And in the same article — ironically just before them — it mentions that Christie — who had been regularly dissatisfied with film adaptations of her works — could note only one difference that mattered to her: the film version of Poirot's mustache. That from Christie herself. So how can we attach any significance to those 16?

That's my two cents without even dwelling on the fact that WP editors can't make these qualitative comparisons (one editor says the hitchhiker is gone, I say she's still there but drinking a beer next to the pool – therefore is she really gone?) because of WP:SYN. Noticing these adaptation changes is a great way to start research which will lead to further development of the article, but that development must include substantive comparisons noted by credible sources, not the superficial changes inherent in any adaptation process. We must recognize that each work stands on its own in the minds of the artists creating them, so identifying relationships between similarities and differences and their significance (or lack thereof) is the work of others, not Wikipedia editors.
Jim Dunning | talk 04:27, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

Anyone wishing to add adaptation "differences" is encouraged to join in this discussion before adding.
Jim Dunning | talk 23:33, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Jim, Do you actually get pleasure out of being a spoilsport? --Marktreut (talk) 18:53, 13 February 2009 (UTC)