Talk:Starwood Festival

This article was the subject of a mediation. The mediation has concluded, and this article is now part of an official arbitration.

Importance

To answer the question of the importance of the event, I've added the following paragraph, as well as the assertion that Starwood is both the largest festival in the American Magical Movement, and the broadest in scope, serving many other communities as well.

"The Starwood Festival has provided an important interface between different groups and their spokespeople, promoting their working together on projects of common interest, and discovering that their similarities and more important than their differences and their differences are a strength and resource to be celebrated. Many attendees and presenters have reported sunsequent involvement in the activities of other represented groups; for instance, Halim El-Dabh and Gilli Smyth with Timothy Leary in the early nineties. Harvey Wasserman has been interviewed and quoted in books and publicatons of the Neo-Pagan movement, an audience he was unaware of before speaking at Starwood. Halim's work with a Rock group (for the first time), Einstein's Secret Orchestra, began at Starwood, and Stephen Gaskin was able to promote aid for Katrina victims through Plenty International at the festival. Synergistic relationships occur regularly there, and the attendees get the opportunity to interact directly with many authors and artists at once in ways that they could not afford to or arrange for individually." Rosencomet 17:05, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Gack!

Advertizing puff piece. And so is every article I have run across which links to it. I am cleaning links to the disambiguation page "Celtic (You can help!), and keep running across links to this in "articles" which are flat-out advertisements. --Sean Lotz 09:23, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

The WP process never ceases to amaze me. With all the editing going on since my previous comment, this may turn into an encyclopedic article. I love this wiki. --Sean Lotz 22:12, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, but I think it still reads like an advertisement and link farm. --Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 03:02, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

citations

From WP:V

Material from self-published sources, and other published sources of dubious reliability, may be used as sources of information about themselves in articles about themselves, so long as:

• It is relevant to the person's or organization's notability;
• It is not contentious;
• It is not unduly self-serving;
• It does not involve claims about third parties, or about events not directly related to the subject;
• There is no reasonable doubt about who wrote it.

So we have one source: the Starwood website, which verifies the names of performers. There is no reason doubt that this this is an reasonably acurate list of names, and many of the names can be easilly verified throuhg a quick google search, for instance [1] independantly verifies that Gilly was at Starwood, [2] independantly verifies Lerry was there. We could waste a lot of time trying to source all this, but there is no need according to above policy.

Whether all these are notable enough for inclusion is a different question. --Salix alba (talk) 15:31, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree with you. This is a reputable, professionally run pagan conference. It'd be nice if they published a Proceedings, but they are pagans, not academics... -999 (Talk) 16:00, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Lead text

The lead-in text is too long. It's four paragraphs and one of them is a long one. MoS (or somewhere) states the lead-in should be three or less paragraphs. If somebody (original editor?) could shorten and move material to other places, it would improve the article. We want to see at least the top of the table of contents. -999 (Talk) 16:20, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Someone doesn't understand the footnoting process

There are two footnotes on the article page that aren't really footnotes. The object of the footnote is to give the reader enough information to verify the information independent of the authors of the article. This has not been done. For exampe, the word "Krasner" doen't tell you anything. NLOleson 17:17, 23 August 2006 (UTC) User making this comment was found to be a sockpuppet of Mattisse

I think you are not using the correct templates for footnotes. It should not be a two step process to click down to the footnote (which should be the complete reference) and then have to sort through the references.Actually, what you are calling references here probably should be called Bibliography or Further reading. The Notes and References should be the same thing. Wikipedia gives you a choice which you want to call it. It's odd the way you are doing it. NLOleson 17:25, 23 August 2006 (UTC) User making this comment was found to be a sockpuppet of Mattisse

Then perhaps you could help. I don't understand the templates and don't use them. WP:CITE shows that there are a number of different ways to cite an article. This way is completely understandable, the cited references are listed in full under references. It's a normal academic way of doing things. Making the footnote the complete reference with named reference tags doens't allow for putting different page numbers with each reference, so each reference has to be repeated in full, which is stupid and too much work. -999 (Talk) 17:36, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

New Edits

I've deleted, at least for now, everything for which a citation was requested that has not been provided. References have been added, and I think we're pretty much OK on this listing barring very nit-picky points. Now how do I eliminate the statements at the top of the page saying citations aren't there and so on?

Ad Astra, RosencometRosencomet 15:37, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Make every word a link?

What's up with this edit: 26 August 2006) It looks like Flinders (Flinders was found to be a sockpuppet of Mattisse) just made every other word a link. I'm getting tired and don't want to mess with it right now, but it looks pretty ... pointless. Is there any possible reason for making a link out of the word "night"? I'm asking because I'm sleepy and maybe I'm missing something obvious. --Sean Lotz 13:35, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

I reverted it. Be bold! --Sean Lotz 13:59, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Is this a group of 30 friends from Cleveland too?

From Krassner's article:*Krassner, Paul (2005). Life Among the Neopagans in The Nation, August 24, 2005 (web only).

The annual Starwood Festivals have been presented by the Cleveland-based Association for Consciousness Exploration, a group of about thirty friends . . .

How odd, odd, odd this ensemble of Association for Consciousness Exploration , Starwood Festival, and WinterStar Symposium is. ABSmyth 19:17, 27 August 2006 (UTC) User was found to be a sockpuppet of Mattisse

Odd?

Odder than you can imagine. They began in the mid to late 70s as an undergrad organization called the Chameleon Club, made up of two groups: a bunch of students who hung around the Hillel House at Case Western Reserve University who were into the Psychedelic Experience and Futurism (and Firesign Theatre), and a group of Society for Creative Anachronism members who were into Neo-Paganism and fantasy literature. There were suprising common themes, which seemed to crystalize in the works of Robert Anton Wilson. They became the first group to bring Timothy Leary to Cleveland and some Neo-Pagan "names" as well (like Dr. Raymond Buckland and Jim & Selena Fox of Circle), and had a hit with their creation of the Starwood Festival, first held at the same site as the SCA Pennsic War.

They founded ACE in 1984 as an organization that sounded more "real" for renting facilities (like resorts for the WinterStar Symposium), and became lecture agents for Wilson and others, and the first "Parapsychologists" listed in the Cleveland Yellow pages. In between ghost-busting (just for fun) and running festivals and symposiums, they ran a "mind-spa" with a sensory isolation tank, bio-feedback equipment, and mind-machines for stress management and electronically-assisted meditation.

As time went on, they began producing their own line of lecture & music tapes (now CDs & DVDs) and a few books, created their own in-house music groups, and grew their events to the point that they could afford to bring in bigger-name talent. Their ranks have included many of their favorite authors and performers either on an active or honorary status, and they've become an important networking body between the different communities they overlap. Their events are known to feature more fun than anyone should be allowed to have; people grin until their jaw-muscles hurt, and continue buzzing with energy from weird magical ceremonies, vision-quest workshops, all-night drumming and partying, great music & multi-media events, and so on for weeks after going home.

Of course, I wouldn't post this praise as part of a Wiki article, and I'm far from neutral. But if you get a chance to go to one of their events, do so. Who can't use a few days of naked Pagan psychedelic drumming & dancing & carrying on, with a chance to enjoy a dozen or so top-notch workshops and concerts? Rosencomet 18:37, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, I'm quite far from Cleveland. ABSmyth 18:53, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

The Roundhouse

According to the designer, Frank Barney (owner of Brushwood Folklore Center), the Roundhouse is based on a Celtic design, not a Native American design (although looking at it, I can understand why one would make that mistake; it looks kind of like the skeleton of a teepee).

Links to starwood on other pages

Rather than having lots of debates on various pages about whether there should be links to starwood, it seems sensible to have the debate in one place, where we can build a consensus.

The appropriate policy/guidline are

Wikipedia:Neutral point of view#Undue weight NPOV says that the article should fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by a verifiable source, and should do so in proportion to the prominence of each.

Wikipedia:Spam

Wikipedia:External links#Links normally to be avoided

For example ArcheDream singles out starwood as the one venue listed out of about 100 gigs. To me this seems to be undue weight. I've change the page to now link to the full tour dates. --Salix alba (talk) 09:04, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Keep track of link spam

Use this: personal attack removed by Rosencomet (talk · contribs) of his articles, by inserting www.rosencomet.com links as so-called "citations". It this moment there are at least 115 links from Wikipedia to his site. This is assuming he is not still inserting this link to a search engine: http://www. freefind . com/. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Timmy12 (talk • contribs)

I've removed the list of links. It doesn't belong here. Samir has said that the links are valid citations. The question is whether they are needed in all articles. This should be discussed on an article by article based using standard dispute resolution methods. Thanks. Ekajati (yakity-yak) 18:19, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Samir said that links on the starwood site are valid citations, but he also siad they cannot be used as an indication of whether including a reference to starwood in the first is notable. The firstfind citations are perhaphs worse than a direct link to a page on the starwood site. WP:EL says avoid Links to search engine results. they also have a lot of advertising and can be hard to find the material which varifies the claim.

While I agree with Ekajati, in that links should be added on an article by article basis, I think it might be good to have a centralised discussion to establish when its appropriate to mention whether a performer appeared at starwood. In this way we can avoid having lots of revert wars on lots of pages, which only seem to result in people getting blocked. --Salix alba (talk) 19:56, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Encyclopedic

I don't agree with this excuse to cut the copy of an aerticle and say it's more "encyclopedic" that way. I ve read plenty of articles in encyclopedias, and own a Britanica, a World Book, and an Outline of Knowledge encyclopedia, and they don't shy away from complete descriptions or evocative language. None of the content that sme have wanted to cut was non-factual.

The treatment of Wiki articles is very uneven. I don't see these conditions put on the Burning Man listing, and I've seen many others that include purpose of the event, principles, objectives, and variouis activities that take place without being accused of including "non-notable" information, being "chatty" or "too much like an ad".

An encyclopedia is not a dictionary. There is no reason to excise language that adds to the reader's understanding of the nature of the subject, or differentiates it from other subjects based on it's unique characteristics. There is no reason for an article to be terse, incomplete, or boring. Encyclopedias are not written that way.

And I'd like to see less chopping up by people who don't contribute articles of their own. I've created many, and contributed to many more. Rosencomet 19:18, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

New Age

The terms New Age, Magical, and Spiritual overlap, but none of them completely include the other. Starwood features components of each category that are not included in the other; to simply call it a New Age event would not be an accurate description, nor just a Pagan festival.Rosencomet 19:44, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Rosencomet, please take some thought about what you're doing

Rosencomet, four experienced admins, one of them an arbitrator, have now removed the worst of the promotional language and triviality from the article, and you have added it back every time. You've violated the WP:3RR, and I see several people have warned you about that on your page, so please be aware that in the future you're not going to get away with something like that ever again. Quite apart from the 3RR, please consider the possibility that these people are more familiar with policy than you are. Having all that redundancy and promospeak in there doesn't make the article more "complete", it merely makes it more bad. Wikipedia is not for advertising. If you insist on keeping the article in such a miserable state, I see no other option than to propose it for deletion instead. Btw, your wild guess that these are people who "don't contribute articles of their own" is amusing to anybody familiar with their output. Better not go any further down that road, you'll only embarrass yourself. Bishonen | talk 19:55, 3 November 2006 (UTC).

PLEASE READ, don't just revert

Please READ the most recent version of the article I wrote. Let's see what I have added in the last time:

I included the topic magical and spiritual, and still state that the phrase "New Age topics" does NOT cover them adequately. Many New Age folks do not accept that magical practice is part of what they do, and there are many spiritual practices that are NOT New Age ones. I also added the topic "mind/body sciences". I included the founding date of the event. I cut the repeat of the phrase "these communities" and just made it "them". I trimmed the third paragraph MORE than the one you keep reverting to. I added an additional type of dance that is featured at the event, then cut a paragraph out.

I created a "Features of the event" section, and cut some of the same other paragraphs that the version you revert to cut. I changed "that can be seen from space" to "visible from space". I added "Sufiism" to the list of spiritual paths featured under the People section.

Otherwise, I have accepted a lot of the cuts that have been made. Gone is the mention of seasonal campers, wood-busters, the line about the intent of the event, the mention of the event being a yearly vacation for some, the "celebrating their diversity" line, and more. In fact, I think I have eliminated most of what has been objected to, while making the description of the event and its components more complete.

I urge you to actually READ the newer copy, and to compare it to such sites as the Burning Man site, and explain why reverting to that one rather than using this one is an improvement. In my opinion, the addition of a History section, a Principles section, a Community section, a Timeline section, and all sorts of other information would be encyclopedic and in keeping with the rest of Wikipedia, along with graphs and photos. I see no reason to harass me over the present content.

However, I apologize for violating the 4-revert rule. It was an accident, and I did self-revert as soon as it was pointed out to me. I'm not sure I did it right, but I certainly did not revert it again until Timmy12 stepped in, and he has a history of staking my articles and reverting them. Rosencomet 21:27, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

To Salix Alba

Please explain to me why the section you excised is "ad like". First, though, take a look at the Burning Man article. (not that I have anything against them)

An ad would say "a spectacular life-changing experience" or "great value at a great price" or "the finest in the world", or some other ad copy. The "Features of the event" section is just that: a list of some of the things you would find there if you, like the author of the encyclopedia article, had been there. It doesn't say why a sweat lodge is wonderful or what its benefits are, it doesn't say "you'll thrill to the pulsing rhythms" or "cool off in the placid waters of the pool" or "your mind will expand, your spirit will soar, and your soul will be nurtured". It just lists some of the structures, the existence of some resources, and adds to a complete "encyclopedic" description of the event.

Look at the Grand Canyon article, for instance. It doesn't just give the length and depth. It presents a history, offers pictures, discusses who comes to it and what they do there; hiking, climbing, endurance runners. Who has been there, why it's unique.

Look at the Woodstock article. The Glastonbury Festival. Renaissance Fair. Does this simple list really constitute making the article into an ad? Does it really not make the description more complete? Rosencomet 22:01, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

I seriously advise you not to put back the section Salix Alba removed, Rosencomet. The feature of an ad that that section reproduces isn't the kind of explicit praise you're talking about ("finest in the world"), it's the triviality of the information. Sound system? Video support? First aid? It's pure promocopy to mention stuff like that. Work with me here. You sound like a reasonable person, please try to understand what I'm talking about. I agree that there are other articles that need the same kind of attention that I've been giving this one. Thanks for giving me a few names, I'll see if I get a chance to edit them. (Burning Man has far too much how-to stuff about how you get there etc—that all needs to go. Though it has some good sections also, rather better than anything in Starwood Festival, to be frank.) But please note that it's not my job to fix everything on Wikipedia. I'm a volunteer like you. The argument you make, basically that there are other equally bad articles so this one should be allowed to remain bad, is utterly invalid. It's never going to impress any administrator or experienced user, so you might as well save yourself some time and stop using it. Bishonen | talk 23:59, 4 November 2006 (UTC).

I have posed a question to Salix Alba, but have not heard a reply. I have not put that section back at this time, since I am hoping for a real discussion of the issue rather than just rocks thrown from a distance, as you seem to favor. First you argue that it's "not encyclopedic", then that it's "too ad-like", and now that it's "trivial".

I think you are missing the point. I disagree with your assessment of my argument. I was NOT saying other articles are just as bad. I was quite clearly saying that a list of the features of an event IS part of an encyclopedic article about that event. As both an event organizer and attendee, I do not agree that they are trivial, nor that it is "promocopy". Many events in the Neo-Pagan movement, for instance, have none of these features. Starwood is unique in both the production values of their stage offerings, how generally well known and cross-genre' their entertainers and speakers are (especially outside the usual audience of such events), and the degree of family-oriented programming and support and safety arrangements. Frankly, I would not only consider this list acceptable (though I'd be happy to delete the times, as Apostle12 suggested), but would see nothing wrong with a "History" section, a "Principles" section, a "Demographics" section, and other items (photos, for instance)that would make the article about this ground-breaking 26-year-old major event in its community more complete.

(You also seem to have quite an attitude; this sounds like threats, scolding and insult, and I don't see where you get the right, especially if you are just a volunteer like me. I have not had any problem with administrators; they seem to agree with my arguments generally.)Rosencomet 17:29, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Bishonen comments ptetty much sums up my response.

I've not take things to the mediation cabel and an independent mediator has agreed to work on the case. I'm not quite sure what the procedure is, so its probably best to wait for the mediator to get the process working Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2006-11-03 Starwood Festival. --Salix alba (talk) 17:43, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Food for thought?

Hmm. "As both an event organizer and attendee, I do not agree that they are trivial, nor that it is "promocopy"." And you really don't see that a neutral outsider, who has no dog in the fight, is better placed than an organizer and attendee to evaluate these things? Whatever. How about this, then: after you'd told me and Salix Alba several times that it was unfair to remove Starwood Festival's how-to sections and let Burning Man keep theirs —which is actually no way to argue on a volunteer website, as I said— I took my red pencil to Burning Man and did an encyclopedic cleanup on it. I removed a lot of text. See how nobody reverted me? This was the only talkpage reaction I got. I get the impression they were pleased to see the article improved. Food for thought? Bishonen | talk 18:26, 7 November 2006 (UTC).

Of COURSE I don't think that someone who is not an event organizer and attendee is better placed (whatever that means) to decide what is or isn't trivial about an article about an event, any more than a musician isn't suited to make such judgements about a musical article, or a mathematician about a math article, or a teacher about an education issue... I think you get the idea. And I get ABSOLUTELY NO SATISFACTION in the knowledge that I may have caused you to make cuts in the description of another event. I feel sorry if I have in any way made that article a target for your "red pencil". Nor is it logical to assume that if you removed something from another article and did not get an objection that this means your actions on this one had merit. (And stop talking for Salix Alba.)

Again, my argument was that the claim that the inclusion of this simple list of features of the event neither was "not encyclopedic" nor "ad-like", but that they made the description of the subject of the article more complete.Rosencomet 19:24, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Sorry but I think you misunderstand the point that Bishonen is making. You have too close an involvment with this event to make unbiased judgments. That is the reason that users are encourage to not edit events that are close to them. Other users are better able to make judgments. No special expertise is required to do this. The best judges are Wikipedia users that understand how to make an article be encyclopedic. --FloNight 20:20, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

I might agree if this was a trial and these were judges. But these are articles, and the best people to either write or edit them are, IMO, people with knowledge and experience in the field of the subject. I'm not talking about grammer, formatting, or similar aspects of the article, but whether the content elements are "trivial" or not.

For instance, Alan Shockley is best known, among didgeridoo players and crafters, for being the first to make didges out of Agave cactus, which is not indigenous to Australia. You might not care, but to someone in the field this is important. Gene Krupa is known to have pioneered the trap set as a solo instrument in jazz. Badal Roy introduced the Indian Tabla to jazz music. You might not care, but a drummer or jazz buff would. Important innovations by an artist or unique features of an event as compared to others of his/its kind are notable, but perhaps not to someone unfamiliar with the genre. I'm sure you could come up with many other examples in fields I am not familiar with, and perhaps not qualified to write or edit articles about. Encyclopedias like Britanica and World Book hire experts to write and edit their articles. Rosencomet 18:37, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Request for Comment: Inserting references to Starwood Festival in articles

This is a dispute about whether it is appropriate to add internal links (intra-Wikipedia links) to this article to dozens of articles on people and groups who have appeared at this festival. It is also about whether it is appropriate to add external links to the website of the group which organizes the festival to those same dozens of articles. 04:06, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Statements by editors previously involved in dispute

• I've struck the second part of the issue, as the links have been or are being removed. I'll repeat what I've said about it on the currently ongoing mediation page. Several parties are attempting to bypass that mediation, namely Kathryn NicDhàna, BostonMA, Paul Pigman, and WeniWidiWiki. Here is what I have to say to them:

  There is also a misperception and intentional rudeness on the part of the parties attempting to end the meditation. They keep calling Rosencomet and others "spammers" in violation of the no personal attacks policy. They have been informed the Rosencomet did not set out to put links in all the articles, but was essentially forced into it by Mattisse, who violated WP:BITE by first attempting to get all of Rosencomet's articles deleted, stalking Rosencomet to do so, and then placed (either herself or using one of several sockpuppets) {fact} tags on every mention of a Starwood appearance, as well as talk page messages intended to convey that any article without citations (the external links to rosencomet.com) would be subject to excessive tagging and possibly deletion. Thus, the links were added as citations to protect the articles from Mattisse's threats: several editors helped. I helped by improving the formatting and converting them to footnotes. Once the citations were in place, Mattisse then went around trying to get every admin and other user she had ever communicated with in the past to help her fight the 'evil spammers'. IMO, Mattisse has completely manipulated this situation, for reasons unknown to me.—Hanuman Das 05:00, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Comment Is this the appropriate place to discuss user conduct? If not, please strike out your comment about intetional rudeness etc. If this is the appropriate place to discuss user conduct, please let me know so that I may respond appropriately. Sincerely, --BostonMA ^talk 16:09, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

• No one attempting to keep them in the articles has any objection to a consensus decision that they are not needed. —Hanuman Das 05:00, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

• Over 70 Wikipedia pages have had these internal and external links put on them over the last few months. On some as many as three separate links. My view is that this is WP:SPAM. It is an concerted and deliberate effort to increase visibility via Google bombing. User:Rosencomet has an obvious conflict of interest as Director of the organizing group yet he has inserted many of these references. Mediation has been attempted but has not resolved much. Most of the external links have been removed but internal links remain, many of them obviously shoehorned into the text with little regard for their appropriateness to the subject. Browse through this list for some instances. I believe at least 95% and perhaps all of these references should be removed. --Pigman (talk • contribs) 05:28, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

• I've tried to keep this brief and just state my position. However I've just reversed a strikethrough of the second statement at the top. Although many of these external references have been removed, nothing was actually decided in mediation. I would still like to hear what other editors think of the mass use of an external website in scores of articles. --Pigman (talk • contribs) 05:37, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

• I have to second Hanuman Das's position. Mattisse is not innocent in this matter. She used a number of sockpuppets to give Rosencomet the impression of strong support of deleting the articles unless a citation was added to every mention of Starwood Festival. Also, I do not agree that this is clear-cut spamming rather than citation of facts requested using the {fact} tag; at least one admin Samir has stated that in his opinion the links are valid citations, not spam. His only question was whether they were needed in all the articles. Those calling Rosencomet a "spammer" or "Google bomber" appear not to be assuming good faith. They have been repeatedly informed that the links were posted in response to {fact} tags and for no other reason. I have to ask why Mattisse has not been blocked for this egregious use of socks to manipulate another user into thinking there was broad support for her position that every mention needed an external link to support it. Without the sockpuppets, Rosencomet may well have sought advice from admins, as it would have been a one-to-one disgreeement rather than the many-to-one that the sockpuppets made it appear. Ekajati (yakity-yak) 15:04, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
  • This is an RfC on article content, not user content. For the avoidance of doubt, the overwhelming majority view in the Mattisse RfC, supported the editor's conduct. In future, could you ensure your comments on this page relate to improving the article. Thanks... Addhoc 15:25, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
    • This history is not immaterial to the current situation, and explains the motivations for the citations having been added in the first place. Ekajati (yakity-yak) 15:29, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
      • A statement such as "User X is not innocent in this matter" would be ok in a user conduct RfC, but isn't appropriate for an article content RfC. In future, on article talk pages, could you ensure that you comment on the content, instead of the user. Thanks, Addhoc 15:35, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

• Comment Links to the rosencomet website are appropriate in the Starwood and Winterstar and Association for Consciousness Exploration articles. In my opinion, they are not appropriate elsewhere. Internal links in biographical articles to Starwood, Winterstar etc. are only appropriate if a) the biography is indeed about a notable person and b) the appearance of said person at a rosencomet event is in fact a notable event in that person's career. That might be the case for certain individuals, but is probably not the case for others, possibly a large number of others. In the absense of evidence that the appearance is a notable aspect of the person's career, the assumption should be that it is not. Evidence that an appearance was important to the individual would, in my opinion, inlcude mention of the event on the individual's personal website. Appearance at Starwood does not necessarily imply that an individual is notable. See WP:BAND. --BostonMA ^talk 00:12, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

• First of all, why ask about inserting references to the Starwood Festival rather than inserting references to an event in general? Make it personal, and you have to expect comments on the users' past behavior. IMO, there is no reason to limit the number of Wiki articles an article is linked to. The lists of past speakers and entertainers provided in the Starwood article are there, in part, to establish the notability of the event. Those having Wiki articles are linked to those articles, and these articles contain mention of these appearances because they are notable; this is the premier event of its genre, and inclusion in its roster is a unique credit for their bio, and says something about the audiences they choose to appear before. I see no reason not to tell the reader that the appearance took place, and once said, offer the reader a link to another Wiki page explaining what the event is. Such reference is, after all, the reason this linking ability was created. Anyone looking at the history of this issue will see a campaign to eliminate the work I've done by any excuse: either it needs citations, or has too many citations, or hasn't verified the facts, or has too many external links (which were used to verify the facts), or the article is linked to too few other Wiki articles, and now linked to too many. I have tried to improve the articles to address those complaints I found valid, but this is difficult when they contradict each other. In the process, I've been insulted, harassed, threatened, and accused of being someone I am not, of being paid for my work, of being an employee of one or more subjects, of linkspam and "google-bombing" (whatever that is). Compromises have been ignored, as have the comments of administrators, and there seems to be an attempt to do an end-run around the mediation process. It's hard to assume good faith under these circumstances. My only comfort is the support and efforts I've had from good people like Hanumas Das, 999, and Ekajati, and some kind words from Samir and a few others. But being a newcomer, I don't have as many buddies as the individuals following my articles and dissecting them. By the way, this Rfc was begun without any attempt to notify me. Rosencomet 20:47, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

• • Don't feel bad, Rosencomet. The original Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2006-11-03 Starwood Festival was started without any attempts to notify me, and I turn out to be the main target. It's just the way it works around here. Can't take it personally, I guess. Sincerely, Mattisse(talk) 21:07, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

• Comment - I think the Starwood linkage is a clear case of linkspam to a commercial site, and that the internal linkspam is as inappropriate as the external linkspam. Both should be deleted, except in the very few cases where something about Starwood may be crucial to the biography of a person who is otherwise notable on their own merits. Starwood, while probably small-pond notable enough for an article itself, is not notable enough to add to the bios of otherwise notable people. See also comments here: Wikipedia talk:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2006-11-03 Starwood Festival --Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 21:19, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

• Comment - The above stated view is my view also. I was under the impression that WP:V was non-negotiable. If this is not true then I need to be told that. While I am flattered that so many choose to dwell on me, my motivations and behavior, I do not understand what that has to do with the issues at hand. Sincerely, Mattisse(talk) 21:34, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Comments

I don't know if it's appropriate for me to comment in the "comments" section as I am an editor involved in the current dispute but this is more about the AfC than the dispute itself. I hope this AfC will bring in different editors' voices and eyes. I believe both sides can benefit from such input. The dispute now has a certain static and predictable quality in the interactions. I don't expect resolution here but I would like to hear what other editors think, particularly about the basic issue outlined at the top of this AfC. --Pigman (talk • contribs) 19:31, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

• Surely internal links from the artists to the starwood festival is appropriate as they did preform (I assume), also linking to the artists from the starwood article seems to me to be fine, however I do have some reservations on how it has been done at current. As far as the external links go I feel that a link to an external site should be used only on an article which it is providing a positive insite to understanding the article itself. Thereby linking from an artists article to the starwoods page seems impracticle and a waste of both time and space on the wiki servers (I refer to the extra code involved). Any artist who appeared at a starwood festival surely would have appeared elsewhere and it may well be a very small piece of their history, the same for the starwoods article, linking to external artist sites seems to be counter productive as a reader of either article would be looking for information on that subject not nessicarily the other. If one wanted to learn more of the other article would they not first move to the wikipedia page for that person and then, if they wished for more information, to an outside link from that article which possibly provided more relavance to them. On the subject of the internal links on the starwood page all I can disceren from them is that someone wanted to input the maximum exposure in the smallest space, I would have had the lists of featured speakers and entertainers with a little more information about what they did at the festival, also the shear volume of links in a space makes it difficult to read if anything. I would have included a list of say 'related person' in a bulleted list style with a few coloumns to better breakup the links rather than the continous prose. At current it looks like a glorified blog with a wiki stamp on. As Maddox said on his page (http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=banish1) "If I wanted to read another article in the middle of a sentence, I probably wouldn't be reading the article that brought me here to begin with." I would say also that using wikipedia for advertising goes against policy WP:NOT. On another note if Mattise is using sockpuppets does that not further degrade her own postion further than it may have been before, in my humble opinion it does due to her own lack of courage to write responces and feasable arguments herself. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Widders (talk • contribs) 21:16, December 4, 2006 (UTC)
  • Note: this is this user's 14th edit. --Ars Scriptor 13:58, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

• Comment - Can we please declare a moratorium on messing with the links in question until some consensus is reached? Further revert-warring isn't going to solve anything. - AdelaMae ^{(talk - contribs)} 22:00, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
• Comment - I agree with Kathryn NicDhàna's comment above. Linking to Starwood's article and website from the Wikipedia article of anyone who's performed or taught there is inappropriate promotion of Starwood rather than adding to those articles' usefulness. Matthew Brown (Morven) (T:C) 23:46, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
• Comment - I concur with Kathryn NicDhàna. I also think that AdelaMae's request for a moratorium on adding, deleting or modifying these links until consensus is reached, is a really good idea. I also think that the appropriateness of links to Rosencomet.com should be weighed against the policies set forth in WP:VERIFY and WP:RS. I don't think it meets the criteria, and the mere fact that someone attended /performed /lectured at a for-profit event is not notable in and of itself. - WeniWidiWiki 00:21, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
• Comment - concur with User:Kathryn NicDhàna. I inadvertently got involved in this mess, unknowing that there was mediation ongoing re. Starwood Festival; all I saw was inappropriate linkage and revert-warring within the Stewart Farrar article. Either way, I consider the fact that Stewart was ever there in the first place to be entirely non-notable, considering the man made a career of going on the lecture/festival circuit and, frankly, have to question the motivation of certain editors in their zeal to have all this in-linkage propagated throughout the Wiki - Alison^✍ 00:35, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
• Comment and offer: I would be happy to lead / mediate the discussion, as there doesn't seem to be a current mediator, if all involved parties agree to agree to attend mediation in good faith. - Che Nuevara 04:14, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

I've responded on CheNuevara's talk page. I recommend others respond there as well to not clutter this page. --Pigman (talk • contribs) 04:44, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

• Rosencomet clearly has a conflict of interest here, is there anyone else who is pressing for inclusion of the multiple references to Starwood? Rosencomet is far and away the most impassioned advocate of the links, and I appear to have missed the other advocates of linking in amongst his advocacy. I completely agree with BostomMA's comment above: a link to Starwood (whether internal or external) should only be included if it can be verified from secondary sources that the article subject's involvement with Starwood is considered notable either by them or by neutral third parties independent of both Starwood and the subject (the New York Times, for example). I am not opposed in principle to using Rosencomet's links as support for the appearance, should said appearance be deemed notable, but I am very lukewarm on that since throughout this the overwhelming impression, rightly or wrongly, is that Rosencomet is engaged in astroturfing of his own festival - I would be a lot more comfortable if a demonstrably independent third party were making those calls, and I doubt I am alone in this. Guy (Help!) 12:35, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Yes, to varying extents myself, Ekajati, Septegram, and 999 (who is on vacation until January according to his talk page). I never thought the external links were needed, but Mattisse insisted on citations and so I helped Rosencomet find citations and also helped make them into proper footnote citations. —Hanuman Das 14:11, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
  • I do feel that a certain amount of linkage is reasonable, and point out (as I have in several other places) that apparently Rosencomet didn't start posting external links until Mattisse bombed the article with {cite} tags (in, IMO, faith that was questionable, at best). I agree that Rosencomet may have gone overboard, but there seems to be an overreaction happening, trying to get huge slabs of information deleted. *Septegram*Talk*Contributions* 16:55, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

mediation

Please see /mediation —The preceding unsigned comment was added by CheNuevara (talk • contribs) 06:40, 6 December 2006 (UTC).

Clarify

I have tagged a few places which need clarification. Please elaborate on which "several other communities" are referred to in the lead. Also please clarify what "consciousness-altering devices", "movement systems" and "mind /body sciences" are - these are all very ambiguous terms and mean a lot of different things. I think if these are better explained, they won't need to be sourced - it is just very confusing the way it is currently worded. - WeniWidiWiki 07:43, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for an actual attempt to improve the article.

"Several other communities" includes magical practitioners who are neither Neo-Pagan nor New Age, Paleo- and Meso-Pagans (to use Isaac Bonewits' terminology), free-thinkers & agnostics, the consciousness exploration/psychedelic/entheogenic movement, environmentalists (NOT strictly New Age by any means), conspiracy buffs, science fiction & fantasy fans, Society for Creative Anachronism members, multi-culturalists, naturists, those interested in Celtic spirituality & culture (even if they are not Pagan), Voudon, Santerian, Yoruban, Church of the SubGenius members, Discordians, non-mainstream and heretical non-Pagans (most mainstream Jews, Christians and Muslims are not interested in Starwood because of the nudity and the policy against proselytizing, but they are not unwelcome as they are at some events), the alternative sexuality community, the polyamory community, and people into healing paths not necessarily associated with either Neo-Paganism or the New Age. There may be others I've missed; this is off the top of my head.

"Consciousness-altering devices" includes technologies that are designed to induce altered states of consciousness or to allow one to control their own passage from one state to another. This includes bio-feedback equipment (when used for this purpose), lucid dreaming devices, sensory-isolation tanks (and other non-immersion devices, including more ancient techniques using the sweat lodge, witch's cradle, etc), subliminal and other trance-inducing recordings, films and instruments, and especially those devices often called "mind-machines". Mind-Machines like the Pulstar, NeuroPep, I.Q., and the classic Whole Brain Wave Synchro-Energizer use controlled sensory stimulation to induce specific brain-wave states on demand. (In a way, they are, in the words of Joseph Rothenberg, exactly the opposite of sensory isolation tanks.) Robert Anton Wilson was a major proponent of such technology, as Timothy Leary was of virtual reality.

"Mind/body sciences" includes techniques and systems that deal with the synchronization between and the study & utilization of the relationship between the body and the mind. (Obviously, there is some overlap between these studies and those which gave birth to the devices mentioned above.) This can include physical meditation techniques like sutras, ritual theatre, ecstatic dance & trance drumming, breathwork, Rolfing, the Feldenkrais method, Reiki, polarity, bio-feedback (when used to control so-called "involuntary metabolic functions"), faith healing, creative visualization, and many other techniques and systems, some of which are part of more complete diciplines such as Yoga, Tai Chi, Chi Gung, Ceremonial Magick, and Shamanism.

I tried to find blanket terms to include these studies, all a BIG part of ACE and Starwood, without including long explanatory text in the article. If you wish to expand on anything for clarity's sake, please feel free, but I think it would be a big mistake to assume that "New Age" covers it. Rosencomet 18:33, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

I changed "mind/body sciences" to "mind/body studies". By the way, if you search on "mind/body", you'll find links to "Biopsychosocial model" (mind-body) and "Philosophy of mind" (mind-body problem), both of which are part of what I mean by mind/body studies. Rosencomet 19:42, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

Fact tags

Just off the top of my head...

Re: Drumming & Dance classes: workshops by Babatunde Olatunji (African Drumming), Daveed Korup (Middle eastern), Raquy Danzinger (Middle Eastern), Louis Martinie' (both Voodoo drumming & Celtic Bodhran), Amampondo (African Drum & Dance), Yaya Diallo (African Drumming), Baka Beyond (Afro-Celtic), Sikiru Adepoju (African Talking Drum), Muruga Booker (African Drumming, Trance Drumming), Badal Roy (Tabla), Larry Myers (Israeli Dancing), Don Waterhawk (Native American Dance), Laurence Galian (Sufi Dancing), Louis Nunez (Santeria Drumming), Max Pollack of Cyro Baptista & Beat the Donkey (Rhumba Tap), Lia Fail (Celtic Music), Brahm Stuart of Shaman (Celtic Bodhran), Halim El-Dabh (African Drumming, Dance & Chant), Neil Chastain (Clave), Jim Barleycorn (Feadog), Billy Bardo (Bodhran), Kelly McGowan (Bodhran), Airto Moreira (Afro-Brazilian Rhythms), Zimra (Belly Dancing), a whole lot more belly dancing & African & Middle Eastern drumming and other kinds ... Is that enough? There's more.

Re: The Roundhouse. Frank Barney, the owner of Brushwood Folklore Center (where Starwood has been held for over 15 years) and the designer of the Roundhouse told me, and has said on numerous occasions speaking to the public, that the Roundhouse is based on a structure of Celtic design he researched in a book while studying standing stone & labyrinth designs for future Brushwood projects (a labyrinth stands there now; he has discussed the standing stone project with Rob Roy, an expert on such matters, and the people at 4 Quarters Farm who have ther own). Frank is a member of ADF, by the way. I don't know how to document this, but I'm pretty sure I saw a discussion of this by him on a Yahoo group or some other chat group. I did verify this with him before changing the info on the Brushwood Folklore Center article (which has since been taken down), which incorrectly called it a Native American design. (I think Sirius Rising, their main event, deserves an article by the way.) Rosencomet 17:42, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

Hi Rosencomet, While I appreciate your spending time to remember who all has taught drumming at the festival and who has told you things, nothing above does anything to document that people from Ireland or the Middle East teach at Starwood, or that the roundhouse is a "Celtic" structure. Stone circles are not Celtic, either. As others have pointed out, and I gently remind you again, personal memories and posts on YahooGroups are not WP:V-standard, verifiable sources. ~ Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 18:23, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

Nor does it SAY that "people from Ireland and the Middle East teach at Starwood", though there are several examples I could mention if I was making that point: Raquy Danzinger is from Israel (as are others in her group Raquy & the Cavemen), Halim El-Dabh is from Egypt, and members of Lia Fail, Green Crown, Gaelic Storm and Baka Beyond are from Ireland. I could point to individual listings in the program booklet of the ACE website, but you don't like that, and frankly it is asking too much that a reporter would have put an article in a newspaper about the fact that a speaker at an event that taught a Bodhran class was actually FROM Ireland. However, I have changed the sentence to read "There are classes on drumming and dancing from Africa, South America, Ireland, the Middle East and elsewhere." That should clarify what it meant: the styles of dance and drumming are from those places, not necessarily the people teaching them.

And I said right in the note on the discussion page, WITHOUT deleting your tag, that "I don't know how to document this". And I did NOT say stone circles were Celtic (nor are "standing stones" and "stone circles" the same thing), but just that "the Roundhouse is based on a structure of Celtic design he researched in a book while studying standing stone & labyrinth designs". I don't know if the book included many designs from around the world, or what. Instead of putting words in my mouth and erecting hoops to jump through, why not be helpful? If I add "according to the designer, Frank Barney (owner of Brushwood Folklore Center)" to the sentence, will you drop the citation? Need I ask Frank to ask someone else to place the fact that he said so on a website that I can cite? Do YOU DOUBT that the design is Celtic? Why? Rosencomet 19:22, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

Clean-up Tags

I believe that the clean-up tags on the "Featured speakers" and "Featured entertainers" sections of the Starwood Festival article are inappropriate. There are three reasons listed for putting such a tag on a list:

1. "poorly defined" - I think the lists are accurately defined as lists of "some of the past featured speakers/entertainers"

2. "unverified" - every name on this list can be verified by citation from the website of the event organizers IF IT IS REQUIRED, and these citations have been agreed to be appropriate for the purpose of asserting that these people did, in fact, appear at the event, though their NEED has not been established. The website is listed at the bottom of the article.

3. "indiscriminate" - out of MANY more speakers and entertainers, these lists have been reduced to only those notable enough to have their own Wikipedia articles (with the exception of two directors of the event's host organization). They are, I contend, as notable for an event as a bibliography or discography is for an author or recording artists, yet EVERY name has NOT been included. These lists show the diversity, notability and scope of the guest line-ups, and show an assortment of both celebrity and up-and-coming individuals: authors, organization founders, ground-breakers in their fields and arts, etc.

If there is some reason to tag a specific name, it can be discussed, but I think tagging the entire list for something as vague as "clean-up", and thereby alluding to standards that don't really exist, is excessive. If you think a particular name doesn't belong there, it should be discussed on a case-by-case basis, starting with YOUR reason that a particular notable speaker/entertainer should NOT be on the list. Rosencomet 18:31, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Hi, I tend to agree with you that the cleanup tags are unnecessary, and have removed them on the assumption that the standards you mention above are part of Wikipedia guidelines. It would be helpful when citing such standards to mention where you obtained them. I didn't see them in a very brief search. Could you provide a link? Thanks. Sincerely, --BostonMA ^talk 18:43, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

The three I mentioned were right on the box that appeared on the page as a result of the tag. The first one, "poorly defined", had no link (and therefore it was a standard that was poorly defined :-)), but the other two did. I went to them and could find nothing to support the notion that the lists were "unverified" (except that the citations originally on them had been removed, but I guess they are not necessary), and the only thing under "indiscriminate" that MIGHT apply would be the idea that the list is an almanac with every possible entry. My contention is that it does not contain every speaker & entertainer by a long shot, but just ones notable by Wikipedia standards, evidenced by the existence of an article for each.

Thanks for your cooperation and recognition that I am trying to improve the article and make it more complete by addressing the issues others are raising. Rosencomet 19:14, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Eh, that's not why I tagged them for cleanup. I feel that they need to be broken into sub-cats or something, because currently all they are is a huge unreadable list of names. Please look over at Lollapalooza or Burning Man for ideas - because at this time it is just an unwieldy list of names which goes against WP:NOT. Don't read into my intentions - I was not doing it to be malicious. - WeniWidiWiki 00:39, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Hmm. I don't have a problem with that in principle, but I don't know how you would do that. I wouldn't want to have to break them up according to the topics they speak on or their musical genre's - too much overlap, and too many of them speak on several different kinds of topics and play different styles. Chronological would be problematic, too, since so many of them have appeared on multiple occasions. I don't know if that would be any advantage to the reader, either. I suppose you could put them in columns, and section them into alphabetical groups. It would take up more room, but perhaps be more readable. One long alphabetical list would be MUCH more space consuming, but more readable.

I didn't see any similar lists in the Burning Man article. In fact, they seem to give little space to those who contribute to the event with performance. I looked at the Lollapalooza article, but I think that if one was to include 26 year-by-year lists of who performed and spoke at which stage and workshop site (if one even could), you and certain others would freak out :-). (There are some interesting other features of those articles that might be worth emulating in the Starwood one, though.) Rosencomet 20:39, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Starwood Festival & RasputinJSvengali

First of all, Happy New Year to you all.

I have just left this note on User:CheNuevara's talk page:

I have just seen an action taken by User: RasputinJSvengali during this arbitration (and, as far as I know, an ongoing mediation) which not only rewrites the text of the article and deletes the entire "Featured Speakers" and "Featured Entertainers" sections, but adds "Satanists" and "the Illuminates_of_Thanateros" to the list of people attending. I am afraid that this has been done to bait me into a revert war during the arbitration. As an objective party who has offered to help with my efforts to rectify the problems caused by the disagreements between myself and other editors, I would like to ask you to reverse this action and request that User: RasputinJSvengali refrain from such actions. For several weeks I have only reduced the number of links and added 3rd party citations, all of which were requested by editors during the mediation, and have engaged in civil discussion on issues related to the article on the discussion page without actually doing the editing (except for one grammatical edit). Thank you. Rosencomet 17:59, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Rosencomet edits

In the wake of RasputinJSvengali's action and BostonMa's subsequent revertion of parts of it, I made some minor but now necessary (IMO) grammatical corrections and link fixes. I also replaced the ambiguous mention of "Neo-Druidic Groups" with the specific mention of ADF and Asatru. I hope no one minds that; presenters from those traditions can be cited with references to the ACE website if one wishes: Adf members Isaac Bonewits, Brian Perrin, Robert Lee "Skip" Ellison, Ian Corrigan, Liafal, and Bill Elston to name a few; Asatru members Diane L. Paxson, Laurel Mendes, Anne Sheffield, and Victorria Johnson among others. I question the introduction of "Chaos Magickians", but I guess it can stay. Lyrus Landholder, Nema, Taylor Ellwood, and a few others might qualify; but I don't feel confident enough to have added it myself. Rosencomet 19:09, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

I know you disagree, but something needs to be done with the Featured Speakers & Entertainers section in this article. I am not saying this to hurt your organization or lessen the article. I think the Burning Man layout is a lot easier to read and doesn't seem to just be an endless list of names. I think that limiting it to the previous years speakers & entertainers or culling it out to five or six notable people is preferable to the mess that it is now. Most of these people are inter-linked to the Starwood article anyway, right? Currently how does this section contribute to the entry? It seems to detract from the entry, if anything. While Svengali's edits were pretty brutal, I think they were more in line with community consensus on this matter, which seems to be copious lists of links are unproductive.

If anything, I really think a sub-talk page should be made and these sections reworked and then merged back into the article after some discussion and editing.

Also, the remark about Satanists: Temple of Set members have been speakers at Starwood in the past, as per the Rosencomet site and elsewhere. It's a semantic argument whether the TOS is Satanist or not, but the argument could be made. Also, the ACE book catalog sells books by famous Satanists like Nicholas Schreck (who is the husband of Anton Lavey's daughter Zeena.) WeniWidiWiki 20:09, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

I don't see why. Rosencomet 17:19, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure why you think "something needs to be done". However, I quite specifically did not object to it in principle, I just discussed how one could or should do that. I disagree with the notion that there is a problem that must be solved here: the Lollapalooza article you referenced has extensive lists of entertainers and the days they played and which stages they played on. I just don't understand why you object to these simple alphabetical lists. I think it encourages people to read another article in Wikipedia about a notable individual, and helps support the notability of the event. What's the ADVANTAGE to Wikipedia of reducing that? How is that not "lessening the article"? What exactly is "unproductive" about these lists?

And as to the Burning Man article, would you really support sections on the history of the event, the demographics, the relative heights of the Starwood bonfire, other events that have been inspired by Starwood, the lay-out of the grounds, the effects on the environment, terminology, etc etc? Then why have you and those with you on this objected to lists of the features of the events as too ad-like when much more detailed descriptions exist on those, and other, articles about events? Besides, as far as I can tell, Burning Man is a completely different type of event (except that both have a big burning thing on the last night), which doesn't book and feature acts and workshops and therefor no one has listed them. It's a voluntary art festival, not a spiritual and educational event with entertainment. Rosencomet 17:19, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

I know of NO Temple of Set member who has been a speaker at Starwood as a representative of that organization or as a Satanist, and the only talk about Satanism that has happened at Starwood was about how to help the public not confuse Paganism and Wiccan with Satanism. Laurence Galian spoke only about Sufiism and other non-Satanic subjects; this strikes me as an attempt to blackwash an event that YOU KNOW VERY WELL has nothing to do with Satanism. If you examine every speaker bio, you'll find people listing the fact that they are nurses, farmers, metallugists, architects, military personnel and electrical engineers. Must we list those groups as attendees, too, if they are not there in that capacity? Is every interest of every attendee or speaker a notable fact?

And to list as attendees at Starwood anyone who shares an interest with someone who wrote a book that sells in the ACE bookstore is pretty ridiculous. It is a bookstore, and contains books by plenty of people that the organization does not endorse the content of. Heck, there have been copies of the Malleus Mallificarum, the Koran, Hidden Dangers of the Rainbow, and books on conservative politics. They are there because people who buy from the bookstore do research on such subjects. Rosencomet 17:19, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

(I have moved your replies down - please do not break up blocks of other user's text. Use quotations.) I am starting to become frustrated again with this issue. I feel like you are being needlessly protective of this article, and are exhibiting ownership issues. I am trying to be polite and work with you on this rather than just edit-war about it. This is why WP:COI is such an important policy. You seemingly perceive any changes to the article as attacks or detractions. You immediately put messages on your "allies" user pages asking them to rally to the defense of the entry. You have basically stated in your reply that the long list of names "supports the notability of the event" when for all intents and purposes it is just a long unreadable list. I am running potential changes to the article by you out of courtesy - I, nor any other editor, am obligated to do so. I have tried to discuss changes to make the article better. I did not re-add the reference to satanists attending /speaking at Starwood, and only made the observation that they have in the past. I am trying to work with you here. However, if any alterations to the article as it exists are unacceptable to you, I will let my conscience be my guide, be bold and edit as I normally would. - WeniWidiWiki 17:55, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

I just put the lists in columns. It's a start. - WeniWidiWiki 18:29, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

OK with me, and thanks. I had no idea how to do something like that. It definitely looks better and more readable. If you think the listing of the years attended is extraneous, I have no objection to deleting them. Or, if you think that's exactly the kind of info that would make the article MORE complete and encyclopedic, I'll try to add them. Rosencomet 19:11, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

By the way, I never said that "any changes to the article are attacks or detractions". I have discussed the possibilities on this page. I DO consider attempts to associate the event with Satanists an attack, however, and the wholesale deletion of the entire lists of featured speakers and entertainers, especially during an arbitration. (What happened to the agreement not to make such changes during it?) If someone wants to add people that can be demonstrated to actually attend in large numbers (for instance because the event presents something for them) - environmentalists, body painters, free-thinkers, conspiracy buffs, naturists, Rainbow Tribe folks, Ceremonial Magicians (more accurate than Chaos Magickians anyway, and more inclusive), performance artists, etc - I have no intention of doing so, but I have no objection.

There have been changes made to the article that I have not objected to even by RasputinJSvengali, such as deleting "that burns all night" from the bonfire description, deleting the mention that the Roundhouse is based on a Celtic design, and the elimination of the sentence "Starwood serves the Neopagan and New Age movements and several other disparate communities - providing a common ground for networking and interaction between them". I consider them unnecessary changes, but have not asked anyone to do anything about them. I have responded to your inquiries about issues of clarity and supplied whatever info I could, and have not objected to your changes, just followed up with occasional grammatical tweaks.

But I simply don't agree that there is any need for "limiting it to the previous years speakers & entertainers or culling it out to five or six notable people". I see nothing in that proposal that makes the article better, more complete, more accurate, or more encyclopedic, nor do I see any such requirement in Wikipedia policies or applied generally to other articles. In fact, I think that would lead people to expect those particular individuals to be present at the event if they should attend, rather than lists that give the reader an idea of the type, variety, and notoriety of those presenting. These lists give the reader a better idea of what attending the event is like, what the event offers its attendees, and what contribution it makes to the community it serves in providing a forum for these notable authors and artists where their work can be experienced, which is what IMO an article about an event should do. This seems to be a matter of taste, not policy. Rosencomet 19:39, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Neo-Sufis

I'm unfamiliar with the term Neo-Sufi except as used by Hakim Bey (who really should appear at Starwood IMO). The main Sufi speakers that have appeared ar Starwood (that I can recall offhand) are Laurence Galian and Paul Garbanzo (AKA Paul Hudert, AKA Misha Karamazov, a member of the Flying Karamazov Brothers). Their bios don't use that term. There is no "Neo-Sufi" article on Wikipedia. That's about all I can say on the matter for now. Rosencomet 18:48, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

I did not mean the term "neo-Sufis" as a literal name for a group. My concern is that terms such as Sufi or Druid have an historical meaning. Individuals may call themselves what they may, but that may lead to confusion with the historical meaning. So, my concern is whether those at the Starwood festival who identify themselves as Sufi belong to the category of those who have been historically identified as Sufi. --BostonMA ^talk 18:33, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Oh, I understand your question and why you brought it up. I'm just giving you the info I have. In the case of Druid, I had no problem with the change to "Neo-Druid" that was made, since there is no direct link to ancient Druid religion on the part of present-day practitioners of paths using the word. There are present-day Pagans, but Neo-Pagans are members of a revival based on traditions that have not had unbroken lines of adherents. Certainly today's Wiccans are not adherents of any religion that existed centuries ago; it's a modern tradition utilizing re-creations of past traditions and lore.

As far as Sufis go, I believe that those calling themselves Sufis today are members of the same tradition as the term "Sufi" indicates. The two speakers I mentioned are among people who follow that tradition and call themselves Sufis rather than Neo-Sufis. But I could be wrong. I'd be happy to hear others weigh in on the issue, or I could try to contact someone who would know better than I. (Maybe Danny DeVito - "Sufis Rule!" :-)) Rosencomet 19:51, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Laundry Lists

Once again, an attempt is made to circumnavigate an ongoing arbitration by those on one side of the issue, to get what they want by any possible means.

I object to the placement of these tags. The person placing them said above that they are unreadable, and that I should "look at such articles as Lollapalooza for ideas". Well, that article has lists of 300-400 acts, every act that has been there, listed by year and which stage they performed on, dating back to the first year, with plenty of repetition of names, and many acts that are not notable enough to have their own Wikipedia article.

The lists here do not represent everyone who has appeared by any means. Except for two directors of the event, every speaker and entertainer listed is notable enough to have their own article. All can be verified on the ACE website, a link for which is in the reference section. Most have 3rd-party citations on their own articles to further support notability of their appearance, but I have not cluttered this article up with all these links.

I contend that these lists of past speakers and entertainers lends notability to the event itself in a very real way. They illustrate the fact that this is not just a party, or a retreat with a few workshops, but a major event with a cirriculum comparable to a week of a university summer-session. There is NO resource like it in the community it serves; it has featured more authors and leaders of the traditions they are involved in than any festival of its kind in America, and more major entertainment (most of whom are also instructors), and for more years (and for no per-class additional charge). The variety of presentors and their popularity gives the reader a better idea of what the event is, while offering an easy link to look up each one's article for further research. I don't think chopping away at them would improve the article one bit, and I see no clear criteria by which to do so.

I think the tags requesting clean-up are inappropriate, and they should be taken down. I am loathe to do so myself, since there is an ongoing arbitration on the article, one which I think should have been honored before these tags were placed. These lists have already been cleaned up, as the person placing the tags well knows, and a lot of work went into doing so. Rosencomet 00:55, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Do not presume to know what my intentions are. You have repeatedly stated that no one is editing the articles because everything is 100% resolved. They are not resolved. Furthermore, your above statement is proof that any editing to your article is perceived as an immediate attack. I am stating for the record that I have not edited this entry because you immediately attack any edits. I further maintain that the lists detract from the article and wikipedia. - WeniWidiWiki 06:39, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

• I never used the word "attack". I never used the phrase "100% resolved". You may maintain what you maintain, and I may maintain what I maintain. You did not remove the lists, and I did not remove the tags. However, you placed the tags DECLARING that the lists were unencyclopedic, an obvious assertion that the lists NEEDED to be cut down, not a statement on the discussion page that you THOUGHT they needed to be cut down. This is accompanied by a notice on the Wikipedia:WikiProject Laundromat page under "identifying articles to be cleaned". Those seeing either the tags or the notice may be unaware that there is a controversy about this issue. This was, IMO, an invitation for others to do that which you, as a party to the arbitration, did not want to do yourself. Someone like the mysterious Rasputin might simply say "it's an unencyclopedic list; says so right there. Why debate?" and delete the whole thing. Then the removal would be a fait acompli, and those who disagree with you would be in the position of either letting it stand or be accused of resuming a "revert war". I have stated my opinion that this action was inappropriate. I think you have made it clear that you don't care whether this content is notable, or sourced, or whether other articles have even bigger lists, or whether there are no external links, or anything else: you have decided they should be reduced or removed, period. Others, including myself, disagree, which is why there is an ongoing arbitration.Rosencomet 18:44, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

I don't understand how placing a cleanup tag is a violation of arbitration. If the lists are already cleaned up, the worst it can do is have no effect. Please explain how having laundry-list tags on this article is harmful to Wikipedia. - AdelaMae ^{(t - c - wpn)} 14:49, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

• See the above statement. I never used the term "harmful to Wikipedia" either. I did not place an objection on the arbitration pages against what I see as an attempt to curcumnavigate that process; I was being civil, and expressed my opinion here on the article's discussion page. But I would be in my rights to do so.Rosencomet 18:44, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

So out of one side of your mouth, you are stating that the reason that edits to the Starwood articles have stopped is because everything is resolved and there are no further contentions. Yet here, you are accusing me of circumventing the Arbitration by merely switching out two templates? Are you suggesting that no editors should touch any of the hundreds of related articles while the arbitration is under way? - WeniWidiWiki 19:41, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

STOP THAT! I did NOT say "everything is resolved", I did NOT say "there are no further contentions", and I did NOT say "circumvent"; I said "circumnavigate", which is "to go around", not "to prevent or thwart". I said what I said, not what you would like to CLAIM I said. And it is a LIE you folks keep repeating that there are "hundreds of related articles", which you know very well is not so, since there is a list of them on the evidence page of the arbitration. Besides such obvious ones as "list of Neo-Pagan festivals", "Sherman, NY", and links to the ACE article and the other major event it runs (and a redirect page), and the one Matisse/Flinders made to What Witches Do (which has been deleted), there are less than eighty articles. And we're not talking about some editor "touching one of the related articles", we're talking about what YOU, a PARTY to the arbitration, are DOING on THIS ARTICLE ITSELF. And if you guys didn't mean it when you said that providing third-party citations is what was needed to assert that the appearances were notable enough to be mentioned, WHY DID YOU ASK FOR THEM? And why won't you stop arguing the issue? Rosencomet 20:16, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia:AMA Requests for Assistance/Requests/November 2006/Mattisse

Mattisse has requested assistance. She has mentioned this article in her request. I am starting to look into the issue. Any information people could give me would be very welcome. Cheers. SilkTork 20:53, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Entertainers List Additions

In my opinion, Kenny & Tziporah Klein is not a notable enough act for this list. If this act gets a non-contested Wikipedia article, I may change my mind. Sam Andrew is part of Big Brother & the Holding Company, and probably does not need a separate listing (unlike, say, Stephen Kent, who appeared a different year as a solo artist & speaker). James Gurley was not with Big Brother when they appeared at Starwood, and has never been there so far.Rosencomet 17:53, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Given that they were responsible for spreading their Tradition far and wide, and were pretty well-known in their time, I'm inclined to disagree as to their notability. However, I freely admit I'm biased, being a member of that Trad, so I will not take any action on this one way or the other.

18:33, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

I wasn't aware that there was an article about Kenny & Tzipora's tradition. As I said before, if they're notable enough for that, I see no reason not to include them in the Starwood past entertainers' list. It is my opinion, and other editors can do what they think is best, that this act may not pass the judgement of those who keep arguing against these lists, either because the act no longer exists or because they aren't widely enough known or, frankly, whatever excuse one of them can come up with to delete an addition to this page. If it stays, I think it should be moved so it is in alphabetical order like the rest of the list, and a redirect link should be provided from Kenny & Tzipora to Kenny Klein's article (or perhaps by just changing it to Tzipora & Kenny Klein). Rosencomet 16:20, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Cleanup of lists

My opinion on the lists: Laundry lists are listcruft and not encyclopedic. I think they need to be reduced to those individuals who have played an important part in the festival, and then those names integrated into the text in a way that demonstrates their relevance and notability. For instance, it seems to have been deleted now, but I recall reading somewhere that Diana Paxson designed a torchlit procession ritual that is (or was) a regular part of Starwood. So something to the effect of, "a traditional feature of the festival is the torchlight procession [in which x, x, and maybe x happens]. The ritual was designed by Diana Paxson and has been a popular event since its introduction in [year]." And in terms of performers, "Concerts feature Neopagan regulars such as [x, x, and x], and even more widely-known acts such as [x and x]. Internationally known artists such as Babatunde Olatunji and Big Brother and the Holding Company have even made appearances in recent years." ~ Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 01:24, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

I do not share that opinion. I feel that the present lists, which include only those speakers and entertainers that are notable enough to have articles of their own, ARE encyclopedic and add to the article. I was asked in the past by either you or Weniwediwiki to reference Lalapalooza as an example; well, they have every act that has ever been there listed by year, what night, and what stage they performed on, including repetitions and acts with no evident notability. Other venues are not made to "integrate" those who have appeared into the text, nor "demonstrate their relevance". You are making up new rules and new hurdles to apply just to these events and those who appear at them. I would be glad to revisit such features of the event like Diana Paxson's ritual (which I don't believe is a torchlight one, but the "Bidding the Goddess Welcome/Goodbye" processions at the beginning and end of the event, with a large hand-carved Goddess effigy), although as you know such material has been taken down before as "not notable".

With the help of others, I've put up citations with links to the Starwood programs to answer the flood of "fact" tags one editor (with many sock-puppets) put up. I was told that wasn't valid. It went to mediation, and the mediator said they WERE valid for that purpose. Then the external links were objected to, and I was accused of google-bombing. The links were taken down, and the next accusation was that the PEOPLE weren't notable. I eliminated anyone without a Wikipedia article, leaving only those notable enough to merit one, and was accused of "linkspam" and that the citations don't prove the APPEARANCES were notable. The mediator agreed, and I asked what WOULD be correct citations, and was told 1. third-party citations, and 2. an indication that the event was important to the subject, such as a mention on their website or in an interview, or if a recording of their appearance was produced commercially. I began supplying those, but the fact that the recordings were made at Starwood keeps being taken down as "advertising" (even though no info about where to get them is provided), and in spite of the 3rd-party citations, now the accusation was "undue weight". So I began supplying lists of public appearances that Starwood was merely one of, and the new accusation is "listcruft". You say the names should be incorporated into the text, but that's where you deleted them from as "undue weight". And I feel sure that no matter what else I do, or anyone else does, there will be an objection on some new basis.

Most of this comes from you and Pigman. No matter what I do, my attempts to satisfy the demands are not recognized, more new reasons appear to delete it, and my work is reverted. It has nothing to do with policy; you aren't doing this to other articles. This is a months-long campaign, that has involved two mediations and an arbitration, and I am the only one that keeps working to satisfy the other side, to no avail. Please stop. Rosencomet 21:46, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Can you provide or direct us to a reliable source about the ritual Diana Paxson designed for the event? What about sources for other rituals that are an important part of Starwood and would help put a particular presenter into a meaningful, encyclopedic context? I seem to recall one of the links is about the person who kept the ashes for the fire, and how that role has been passed on now; that seems like an interesting fact to include (though I don't know if other editors would agree). I personally think that sort of information gives people a better sense of why the festival is meaningful to the people who attend than does simply stating that you feel the festival is important.

BTW, I did not delete any well-integrated, third-party-sourced, notable people from the text of this article. IIRC, I haven't deleted *anyone* from this article, though the laundry lists need to go for this to be Wiki-appropriate. I ask you to please bear in mind that a variety of people have worked on this article and made a variety of changes. Also, your conflict with other editors would not have gone on for months, nor reached arbitration, if you had respected the community consensus that, as executive director of ACE, you shouldn't be working on this article. ~ Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 22:50, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

The mention of the Goddess ritual was in Diana L. Paxson's article, until someone named Lorriew deleted it while adding other material. Lorriew has made no contribs before or after that day. The ritual is in two parts: "Hail Holy Earth: Nerthus Procession and Ritual" and "Bidding the Goddess Goodbye". You can find a description at [3]. The story about the person keeping the ashes can be found in the article Circle of Ash at [4]. (I wish this archived version had the really cool pictures that went along with the article; send an e-mail to ACE@rosencomet.com and I'll see that someone sends you a copy of the issue if you like.) I'm fine with you adding text that you think "gives people a better sense of why the festival is meaningful" if you like, though I'm suprised to here you say that or that descriptions of rituals would be encyclopedic (and past entertainers & speakers wouldn't). However, there are LOTS of rituals at Starwood. I'm not sure you'll find "third-party sources", though; we don't have reporters at Starwood attending individual rituals and writing articles on them. The biggest one, of course, is the Bonfire Lighting Ceremony (designed by Karen Allgire) involving torch dancers (usually from among the event organizers) and drummers & dancers trained for the purpose at workshops each year. It's been led by Jeff McBride at least twice, I believe.

The Church of All Worlds Water Sharing ritual, held in the pool, is an annual event. It had to be scheduled twice since the enormous number of participants broke the pool's lining a few years ago. It's inspired by the descriptions in Stranger in a Strange Land, and led by whatever CAW members are handy, usually Oberon Zell-Ravenheart, Morning Glory (when her health allowed), or Anodea Judith; when none of them are available, Ronn-Walks-With-Fire and Raven. LaSara Firefox ran one at WinterStar in 2005 & 2006. You'll find it here [5] under Drink Deeply/Share Water, or in the program just about any year in the past 15.

Every Wednesday, Thursday & Friday (and sometimes Tuesday) there's a major ritual at midnight, always run by different groups each year. The ADF ritual is usually Thursday, and usually run by Ian Corrigan or Isaac Bonewits. CAW sometimes takes one, or the New Orleans VooDoo Temple (run by Miriam Chamani with drumming led by Louis Martinie') like this one called Revisioning the Roots [6], or Shawn Eyer who does Hellenic Paganism rituals [7], or Sufi Zikr by Laurence Galian[8]. Jeff McBride has run Alchemical Fire Dance Rituals, Mask Rituals and others[9], including a ritual Story-Sharing Circle at WinterStar. There have also been Masonic-style rituals and Pujas. Starwood has also featured the Tslagi Dance of Life, spiral dances, gnostic masses, and Santerian warrior-necklace initiations (by Baba Raul Canizares, until his passing)[10], and always has Inipi sweat lodge (or stone lodge) rituals for both men and women daily, and Shamanic initiations (usually run by Daniel Lupinski). There are others: mens' circles, womens' circles, faerie rituals, Keening Circles, Walking the Labyrinth (constructed of luminaria), Rangolis, etc, and always a Healing Circle Sunday morning (usually either Anodea Judith or Rebecca Crystal). Many workshops, of course, have rituals incorporated into them (animal dancing, drum blessing, divination, Oracular Seidh, Womens' Moontime rituals, Gong Bath, talismanic blessing, etc etc).

Co-Director of ACE Joseph Rothenberg often runs multi-media enhanced rituals designed around some basic pattern. He and Ian Corrigan ran one based on Timothy Leary's 8-circuit mind model at WinterStar last weekend, and has run others at both Starwood and WinterStar based on the 5 Elements, the Tarot, the Kaballistic Tree of Life, the Hero's Journey, the Alchemical Elements, and others, including Thelemic-inspired ones like The Elevenstar and the 6-Ring Circus of the Aeons. Rosencomet 02:27, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Rosencomet, out of all the names and information and links you put in your post above, one was pure gold: The Cleveland Free Times article.[11] This is what is meant by third party sourcing. At the risk of sounding like a broken record, please read WP:V and WP:RS. --Pig^man_{Talk to me} 03:37, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

• Comment Lists such as these, and even more extensive ones, are common on festival articles. IMO, there is nothing "unencyclopedic" about them. On the contrary, they are an important component to an event that books speakers and/or entertainers. Also, the term "Listcruft" does not apply at all to these lists, as reading the Listcruft article makes clear. They are obviously relevent and notable to the subject of the article, and should not be broken out for their own article. They are not indiscriminate, but include only people notable enough in their own right to have articles. They are shorter than many lists in articles about other festivals, non-repetitious, and do not include external links to commercial websites. This material would certainly be of interest to anyone interested in checking out an article on the Starwood Festival. Here is a partial list of other festivals' articles that have lists of acts (or contest winners, or whatever relevent term there is for the kind of festival it is). They are of all kinds of festivals. I see no justification for calling the lists on Starwood Festival or WinterStar Symposium "listcruft" or laundry lists, terms generally used to indicate articles SOLELY consisting of a list of something with neither context nor an indicated group to which it would be of interest.

• 10,000 Lakes Festival
• Aerodrome Festival
• All Good Music Festival
• Area Festival
• Atlanta International Pop Festival (1969)
• Atlanta International Pop Festival (1970)
• Baalbeck International Festival
• Bath Festival of Blues and Progressive Music (1970)
• Beautiful Days
• Belfast Harp Festival
• Big Day Out
• Big Gay Out
• Boggy Bayou Mullet Festival
• Broadway Dance Festival
• Bude Surf Rock
• Cannabis Cup
• Caribana Festival (Switzerland)
• Cheltenham Festival
• Cropredy Festival
• Dark City Festival
• Days on the Green
• FM4 Frequency Festival
• Festival da Canção
• Foire Brayonne
• Gaubodenvolksfest
• Hallstatt Lecture
• Lalapalooza
• Wigstock
• Woodstock
• Woodstock '89
• Woodstock '94
• Woodstock 1999

In my opinion, incorporating names into a paragraph of text is more unweildy, and harder to reference for a reader. Examples of this can be seen at Edgefest and Gung Haggis Fat Choy. I think simple, non-repetitive lists of relevent material are perfectly acceptable, and these lists qualify. Rosencomet 22:11, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

Please make comment in less than 4000 long

Your postings are hummongous. I would like to be on your side but i can't read through your enormous postings. Can you be nore succint and to the point? It would help us all. Also, if you provided diffs instead of just your opinion that would help also. Thanks! Alien666 04:40, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

References

I've added some references to this page, and WinterStar & ACE as well. I don't think anyone will consider them contentious. I've just discovered Google Book Search - boy, will that make things easier for a lot of editors!Rosencomet 18:56, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Request for Comment: Merging WinterStar and A.C.E. articles into Starwood article

Should the Starwood Festival, Association for Consciousness Exploration and WinterStar Symposium articles be merged into one? A.C.E. is the organization that runs the Starwood and WinterStar festivals.

• Merge - It's been suggested a few times now that the articles be merged. I've added the "proposed merge" template to the articles and listed an RfC so we can have a few more eyes on this. I think merging the other two into this article would be the best bet, as this is the better-known article, and the other two are very brief. I propose a section in this article for A.C.E., and another for WinterStar. Looks like an easy merge as there is significant overlap in the content for all three of these. ~ Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 04:19, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
• Merge - but since A.C.E. runs both festivals, why not merge the festival articles into A.C.E.? - AdelaMae ^{(t - c - wpn)} 14:21, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

If there's a decision to merge, and I'm withholding a vote on the subject at this point, I do think it should go under A.C.E., since the organization runs and predates both events.

*Septegram*Talk*Contributions* 14:52, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Comment - I can see your point. It would be fine with me to merge the other two into A.C.E. ~ Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 22:30, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

• Do Not Merge It is not common Wikipedia practice to merge festivals together or merge them with the organizations that run them unless the organization does nothing but run that event. Pagan Spirit Gathering is not merged with Circle Sanctuary, Cannabis Cup is not merged with High Times, and Mythic Journeys is not merged with Mythic Imagination Institute. Here are examples of festivals of all sorts from the page for that category that are not so merged. (There are more: I got tired of listing them after reaching the "f"s and just added a few random ones.) If you sample others, discounting those that are not events (festivals like "Beltane") and those run by a city or other government, you'll see my point. The Starwood Festival and the WinterStar Symposium are two distinct events run by an organization that also maintains two facilities in the Cleveland area and produces tapes, CDs, DVDs, and other events, offers local classes, and has other functions. Each has demonstrated it's notability to merit an article, and new rules or policies should not be created just for them. I think this is just another attempt by the same few people who keep trying any possible way to reduce these articles.

• Africa Day - Organisation of African Unity
• Artimation - Illinois Institute of Art - Chicago
• Beltane Fire Festival - Beltane Fire Society
• Cannabis Cup - High Times
• Cannes Lions International Advertising Festival (IAF) - EMAP plc
• Cardiff Design Festival - University of Wales Institute, Cardiff
• Carpe Diem - Indian Institute of Management Calcutta
• Dark City - Edinburgh University Students' Association
• Day on the Green - Bill Graham Presents
• Delphic Games - International Delphic Council
• Edgefest - CFNY-FM
• FM4 Frequency Festival - FM4
• Festival da Canção - RTP
• The Machynlleth Festival - The Tabernacle
• Mythic Journeys - Mythic Imagination Institute
• Newbury Comedy Festival - Vodafone
• 1987 IUSY Festival - International Union of Socialist Youth
• Pagan Spirit Gathering - Circle Sanctuary
• Sun Fun Festival - Hawaiian Tropic
• Terrastock - Ptolemaic Terrascope
• X-Day - Church of the SubGenius

Rosencomet 23:08, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

• Do Not Merge per Rosencomet above. If A.C.E.'s sole function was to run these events, or if they were clones of one another, I'd be more inclined to say "Merge." Since that's not the case, I have to oppose the merge. If there's a great deal of overlap between the articles, then it's incumbent on those who are interested in the subject to improve the level of detail to the point where the overlap is comparable to the cases Rosencomet cites above. Otherwise, I might have to vote to merge if this comes up again.

*Septegram*Talk*Contributions* 23:26, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

• Merge and redirect the other two entries - the overlap in material is so great, I think it would be better to have one entry. Switching between all three entries, they read almost identically. I don't think ACE by itself as it currently exists is notable, however I have no opinion on which entry they should be merged into. - WeniWidiWiki 01:17, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

Comment They are different events, at different venues, at different times of the year, in different states. One is a six-day outdoor "nude-friendly" camping event with a bonfire, fireworks, a major stage with multiple acts, Kids' Programming, and all sorts of features not possible indoors, the other is a symposium held in a luxury resort with hotel rooms and cottage accomodations - no fires, no nudity, no camping, no bandstand, no sweat lodge, no kids' stuff, etc etc. The only similarity is that the same group puts them on, and many of the same speakers have appeared at both events. This is just Kathryn and Weniwediwiki, and I'm sure Pigman will follow, continuing their campaign against this organization and its events in Wikipedia. They never help expand the articles, always try to reduced them.Rosencomet 01:35, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

Comment Wikipedia is not merely about expanding articles and making them bigger. It is also about refining and distilling information to make it appropriate and accessible for a general encyclopedia. I realize my judgment on these particular articles is different than yours. I'd appreciate it if you would refrain from characterizing my actions (and decisions) as a "...campaign against this organization and its events in Wikipedia." Thanks. --Pig^man_{Talk to me} 02:25, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

Comment I call them as I see them. You three have been editing these articles in a manner that you do NOT edit any other festival articles. There have been months of pressure, two mediations, and an arbitration, and whenever one rationalization for cutting material from them fails you come up with another. You have dedicated a great deal of time and effort to this.

As for "refining and distilling", you three have expanded Celtic Reconstructionist Paganism, a tradition two of you admit to being founders of, so outrageously that there are over 400 words devoted just to the "first modern appearance of the term"! And there is a list of a dozen "names that people involved in CR-style religion have chosen to use"! Yet you three, who act as one, flag a list of 25 past performers over 26 years (all notable enough to have their own articles) as "unencyclopedic", though dozens of festivals have such lists and even more extensive ones. I think an objective look at that article and how you three have been treating these would be assessed by the observer as bias.Rosencomet 20:42, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

• Comment in response to Rosencomet's list above: While WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS is from Wikipedia:Arguments to avoid in deletion discussions, an essay that is neither policy or guideline, I think it has some applicability here. Going through the list of groups and events above, I found them to mostly fall into two camps. 1) Groups and events that should indeed be merged together (in my opinion), and 2) Events and groups with a connection so unobvious, I could barely discern it. In fact, if Rosencomet hadn't paired them above I'm not sure I would have been able to spot the connection. My point is that I would prefer to focus on the appropriateness of merging for these specific articles, not the examples of other articles. Examples are useful but misleading as well. I think it would be wiser to use Wikipedia policy and guidelines as touchstones for the process than other articles. And of course the general consensus of this discussion (if there is one.) --Pig^man_{Talk to me} 02:10, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

• Comment All the pairings of festivals and organizations come from the first paragraph in each festival's article. Each article is linked to it's organization's independent article. Rather than misleading, I think these examples are revealing. It is NOT common practice, nor is there any Wikipedia policy, to merge two distinct events together or merge the article of an event with an organization that does other things besides run that event. In fact, there are often separate articles for the same event run two different years, such as Woodstock, Woodstock '89, Woodstock '94, and Woodstock 1999, or Atlanta International Pop Festival (1969) and Atlanta International Pop Festival (1970). (Heck, that one even has a separate article for the album, Live at the Atlanta International Pop Festival: July 3 & 5, 1970, as Woodstock has for the movies, the soundtrack albums, and the Joni Mitchell song.) Special rules and policies should NOT be created just for those articles you have a problem with, nor should apparent "consensus" be built by a tag-team of three editors who traditionally edit as one, especially in regards to these articles and others related to Neo-Paganism.Rosencomet 20:42, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

• Do Not Merge -- Starwood and A.C.E. are two VERY different animals. Aside from being an event produced by ACE, Starwood (much like Burning Man) has been around so long that it has built up its own small subculture. There are plenty of people whose summers center around Starwood, but who couldn't even tell you what A.C.E. stands for. To these people Starwood is 'their' gathering, and to them, A.C.E. is just the people who conveniently do the dirty work of setting up the physical aspects along with the Brushwood staff. To such people the event itself, and the traditions that have grown up spontaneously around it, are a major part of their lives and the only time they ever really "get away" from the straight world. A.C.E., on the other hand, not only produces the week-long festival but functions year-round inside the city of Cleveland hosting admittedly smaller but regular events (such as the weekly drum nights at Starwood Center) as well as distribution and publishing of CDs and books that have nothing to do with Starwood, but with metaphysics or counterculture in general. Likewise, Winterstar has a completely different function than Starwood, as much like Starwood as a sci fi convention in a hotel is like a SCA outdoor reenactment festival. In other words Winterstar has an entirely more intellectual orientation. There are rituals but the focus is on speakers, giving workshops and lectures in hotel meeting rooms. I would hate to see any merging of A.C.E., Starwood and Winterstar because it would cut down drastically on the amount of information and cross-referencing that are required to do these three quite distinct subjects justice. Also, I suspect from examining the history of this that a couple of people have some kind of personal anti-ACE agenda -- which is the only reason I can see for this whole argument happening at all.

*Stang* 12:15, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

• Comment While your personal feelings, perceptions, and memories about Starwood, WinterStar, and ACE are obviously detailed and distinct, you should remember Wikipedia is an encyclopedia. An encyclopedia depends on secondary and tertiary sources for it's content, not just the first person accounts such as what you just wrote. Wikipedia is not a publisher of original thought. I think what you are perceiving as an attack on an organization/events you belong to and obviously care about, my impression is this is a discussion amongst a group of editors trying to improve the encyclopedia. The priority here is the encyclopedia, not the promotion of an event. --Pig^man_{Talk to me} 07:06, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

Comment Don't misrepresent User:Stang's statements about his relationship with ACE. All you have to do to be a member of ACE is buy a membership card for $65/year, which gives you discounts on events and products but no vote or power. And hundreds of people each year are "involved in Starwood and WinterStar organizing", and mostly just get a work barter for entrance. Stang's involvement is primarily that he often appears as a speaker; he has no financial stake, nor is he a director or partner in the LLC. And much of what he said is not a "first person account", but is reflected in the many references provided in these articles and is a fair assessment of some of the differences between the subjects of these articles. And his statements were made HERE on a talk page; he did not add "first person accounts" to the article. MY impression is that this is not an attempt to "improve the encyclopedia", but to reduce the presence of ACE and its events on Wikipedia.

Also, your concern for comments on a talk page by someone who might be somewhat involved in the subject seem pretty strange considering the constant EDITING of the actual ARTICLE you, User:WeniWidiWiki and User_talk:Kathryn NicDhàna do and have done on Celtic Reconstructionist Paganism, a tradition you and Kathryn have admitted to being founders of; an article that even includes material ATTRIBUTED to Kathryn! Rosencomet 20:42, 24 February 2007 (UTC)