Talk:Yogo sapphire

Moved from mainspace

This was in a user sandbox from 25 Oct to Nov 06, 2011, when it was moved to mainspace, becoming DYK eligible on Nov 6 as it's also over 24K of prose today. Log here PumpkinSky talk 19:52, 6 November 2011 (UTC)

Photos

A 0.25 carat rectangular-cut blue Yogo sapphire.

A 0.19 carat diamond-cut blue Yogo sapphire.

I stink at macro-photography, and need to re-do these when I get my 50mm lens fixed. But here are two images! - Tim1965 (talk) 02:31, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

Hey PS, sorry the photo so blurry and otherwise not the greatest, but I just had the cell phone, which clearly lacks macro capabilities. The guys at the jewelry store were happy to show off their Yogos, however. This one is currently worth (if you buy it from them) about $5000. If I ever remember to bring my actual camera to town, I'm sure they'll drag them out again for me. They had several, including one that was an unusual purplish color. Also a couple Montana Sapphires, for about 1/3 the price of the Yogos. Montanabw^(talk) 21:00, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

They also gave me their handy-dandy handout on them, not sure if a RS, but will insert text here verbatim if you want to use it. Might provide clues to find backup for some claims (The Charlie Russell's friend and QEII claims are cool if it can be independently verified). Citation is "History of the Yogo Sapphire." Brochure (no author, undated) Central Montana Publishing Co., Lewistown Montana (any typos are mine unless noted):

"History of the Yogo Sapphire"

"Jake Hoover, once partner to Montana's cowboy-artist, Charlie Russell, is credited with the discovery of sapphires in Yogo Gulch in the Little Belt Mountains of Central Montana in 1898.

"The brilliant blue gems were at first thought by Hoover to be pieces of broken bottle glass. When examined by American and British gem authorities, the sapphires were found to be of unique quality and it was not long before the gems gained worldwide recognition.

"Yogo mining interests were purchased by British and American firms. In its heyday the mine produced $30 million in top quality gems. The mine was closed for a number of years because of litigation and other problems. It was recently [no date on brochure to define "recently'] re-opened and Yogo sapphires, which gain their name from the area where they are found, are again appearing on the world market.

"The mine, 45 miles southwest of Lewistown, is the only producing sapphire dike mine in North America, and possibly the world.

"A unique quality of Yogo sapphires is that they retain their brilliance under artificial light. Sapphires from other parts of the world generally absorb artificial light, making them appear black and lustless [sic].

"Yogo sapphires, for the most part, are free of "silk" or milkiness, which adds considerably to their value. It also permits cutting and polishing with greater ease and without undue waste of valuable material.

"Yogo sapphires are found among the crown jewels of Europe and they grace the engagement ring given to England's Queen Elizabeth by Prince Phillip. The beautiful Yogo sapphires are truly gems 'befitting a queen'."

Much of this is correct AFAIK but the year 1898 is wrong and the QEII (and Diana) claims have been proven false, apparently.PumpkinSky talk 22:09, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Oh well. And everyone claims they knew Charlie Russell, too. At least it was fun to read! LOL! Montanabw^(talk) 22:29, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Well, now the myth extends to Kate Middleton (see here). However, I CAN verify the Jake Hoover/Charlie Russell connection: see JSTOR and Vivian Paladin, who is a respected history writer affiliated with the Museum here. Hoover seems to be a rather colorful and interesting character. Be interesting to see where the whole British crown jewels/engagement ring bit came from, as it's all over the place when you search for Yogo info. Montanabw^(talk) 22:43, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Other sources

If needed, and probably will pass reliability muster; http://deq.mt.gov/abandonedmines/linkdocs/92tech.mcpx --HISTORIC CONTEXT of the Yogo District. Good stuff.

More on Hoover and Russell: here

Also another Voynick book, with some tantalizing excerpts about museum collections, in google books: The Great American Sapphire

When you are ready to go live, give me a shout if you want any copyediting or a second set of eyes. I generally stay out of sandboxes unless invited... Montanabw^(talk) 22:58, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Probably not needed, but some direct links to the Smithsonian, with possible US-Gov't PD images (maybe): summary, cool jewelry

Neat stuff. This may delay us another week! PumpkinSky talk 23:45, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Bwahahahahaaaaaa! Montanabw^(talk) 22:52, 1 November 2011 (UTC)

Total trivia and maybe unneeded, but SI web site stating that non-blue sapphires (other than rubies, presumably) are termed "fancy-color" [1]

Yes, I've seen that in several spots. Corundum that is not blue or purple (which is blue and red) is "fancy". PumpkinSky talk 00:35, 6 November 2011 (UTC)

MT Kids

Oh! and this is MEGA-cool and interesting on the economics! http://www.modernjeweler.com/web/online/Colored-Gemstone-Gem-Profiles/Yogo-Sapphire/1$562

Couldn't stay out of trouble

Did some copyediting. Hope I helped and didn't screw up anything. All is intended in good faith and I will not be at all offended if you toss it all out. Looks like you were sort of putting in material by source, I mostly just rearranged things by topic and tried to keep the sources with the right material, but you might want to just revert my whole edit and put back in only what was helpful. I threw in a few hidden text comments where something struck me odd. I guess is was a slow day in wikiland that I had to go poop in someone else's sandbox, so if I was bad, just trout slap me or something! Montanabw^(talk) 02:22, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

It's okay. I go through a source and add all pertinent info from it, mixing in with what I have already, go to the next source, etc.PumpkinSky talk 02:42, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

Rock Creek -- the one west of Butte and south of Missoula. Which wiki article is that, if there is one? PumpkinSky talk 02:46, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

Good question. I'll do a test Rock Creek. And guess what, no Montana Rock Creek articles (hmm, someone tell Mike Cline, he does geography stuff). Mostly wanting to verify that it is or is not the same one that is the world-renowned trout stream named Rock Creek that flows into the Clark Fork not far from Missoula? If two different waterways, they are close to each other... eep! Montanabw^(talk) 02:50, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

Click and enlarge this map PumpkinSky talk 03:02, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

To avoid any more possible edit conflicts, I'll stay out of the article for now. I looked at my digital Montana highway map, which is not quite up to USGS quality, but I think it's the same Rock Creek as the famous fishing stream ...arises near Phillipsburg, flows north, empties into the Clark Fork a bit east of Clinton, MT at the exit where the bar is that holds the "testicle festival." Mountain range running next to it is called the Sapphire Range. I bet it's the same one, unless there is a tinier one nearby, which I suspect not... there's another Rock Creek over by Red Lodge, I think, hence my original question. (A topo map hints there may be another over by Wolf Point) Here are some sources on western Montana's Rock Creek; yeah, I'll alert Mike. [2],[3], [4] Montanabw^(talk) 03:21, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

Yep, page 19 of the book "sapphires were next discovered in 1892 at Rock Creek, sixteen miles southwest of Phillipsburg. PumpkinSky talk 03:28, 5 November 2011 (UTC)...in the article already "Rock Creek near Philipsburg in 1892" PumpkinSky talk 03:29, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

So the source indicates that the sapphire find was closer to the Phillipsburg end of the stream, I wonder how close that is to the headwaters (see handy map I sent). Hmm tricky phrasing, as the creek flows along the (aptly-named) Sapphire Mountains and empties into the Clark Fork about 20-30 miles from Missoula, today it's more associated with "near Missoula" than "near Phillipsburg" (thanks to the fishing stuff). All of which is completely unrelated to this article, of course other than to confuse my small mind. Montanabw^(talk) 00:01, 6 November 2011 (UTC)

DYK ideas

• rarity vs diamonds
• one of two in situ sapphire mines
• premier gem site in America
• Originally thought to be worthless blue pebbles by gold miners
• Retain their luster under artificial light
• Marketing campaign exposed the scandal of heat-treating other sapphires
• Hoover sent them off in a cigar box to Tiffany's

1. ...that Yogo sapphires are rarer than diamonds , were designated the Montana state gemstone in 1969, and are only mined in Yogo Gulch, Montana?
2. ...that Yogo sapphires were originally thought to be worthless by gold miners?
3. ...that Yogo sapphires are the only sapphires that retain their luster under artifcial light?
4. ...that the only place Yogo sapphires are found, Yogo Gulch, Montana, is the premier gem site in America?
5. ...that a marketing campaign for Yogo sapphires exposed the scandal of heat treating gemstones?
6. ...that Jake Hoover, who thought Yogo sapphires might be valuable, sent them off for evaluation in a cigar box?

Comment: Can't do the "state gem" thing because the statute says "sapphire" and is not exclusively confined to the Yogo. Hate to be a party pooper but see http://data.opi.mt.gov/bills/mca/1/1/1-1-505.htm. Also not fond of #4, especially as the mine is out of business half the time. Montanabw^(talk) 01:12, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

I would prefer something like 1, even without the State gem, because you can really present a fact "to be known" in this case and don't need something quirky to get attention, - pictured please. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:52, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

My personal favorite is #5 because I love uncovering scandal and fraud, but that's just me, I don't have strong feelings on any other than not liking #4, and we are getting close to the five day clock, so Ill be happy with any. If we go with #6, I'd add a link to Tiffany's, which is also significant. For an image, should we use the lead image (we can't use fair use for DYK, only free images) or one of Tim's as uploaded at talk (the blowups are a bit blurry, but the smaller ones look OK) Montanabw^(talk) 17:24, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

Nom'd with 1, 5, and 6. See Template:Did you know nominations/Yogo sapphire. PumpkinSky talk 22:20, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

Mention (pictured), please, likely also "cut", - I just see that the lead has no caption yet, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:29, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

Added pictured, have to not agree with cut, as for caption, it's in the template and in the article but not showing up. Do you know why or who could figure it out?PumpkinSky talk 22:35, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

...Hmm, in the article it's because I changed thumb to 200px to make the image bigger but I don't know how to keep it bigger and also have the caption.

(ce) Sorry, I was not clear. I mean a caption is not shown in the article for that pic. - There is no caption in DYK, therefore I think something should be added to the hook like (xyz-cut example pictured), because it doesn't look like what you mine in Yogo Gulch. - Never had a problem with a caption whatever size, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:44, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

Now I see what you mean, I guess it's because the pic has no higher resolution. Perhaps ask Materialscientist, he can do miracles about pics, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:52, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

I changed it to an infobox, so the caption shows up. I think all the entries are correct, but might want to double-check to make sure. Dreadstar ☥ 22:58, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

THANKS!PumpkinSky talk 23:01, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

Helped! Now I would like to see the purple pic further down, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 23:05, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

You're behind the times Gerda, I already moved itPumpkinSky talk 23:07, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for reading my mind, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 23:14, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

Found a pic

The Tiffany Iris Brooch not a public domain image, but a link to where it was displayed with the potential of finding a free image. Montanabw^(talk) 06:16, 7 November 2011 (UTC) -added

More stuff, just parking it here for future reference:

• the chat board post on Princess Di -added
• Another cool jewelry store site with history of most recent round of owners and fate of stuff in the Citibank vault --this is a copy from the book I used
• The Iris Brooch at the museum where it was displayed -added

Adds

This is a great article! Just stumbled across it while looking at gem-related stuff! I added some categories and the jewellery nav box, hopefully they're appropriate! Dreadstar ☥ 04:52, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

Glad you like it and thanks!. Can't believe I left off categoriesPumpkinSky talk 21:38, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

Hi Dreadstar! Good to see you around! Thanks for the help with the categories and such! Montanabw^(talk) 01:03, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

The new categories look great, nice work.MilkStraw532 (talk) 01:22, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

Links and more stuff

Smithsonian terms of use, in general: http://www.si.edu/Termsofuse

True, but SI is a gov org and a Chip Clark photo, since he is an SI employee, makes it PD.

So can we use it?? Montanabw^(talk) 21:27, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

We can use a photo by Chip Clark, but the butterfly pic is copyrighted. I've asked Kane if we can use the butterfly photo. PumpkinSky talk 22:05, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

This Robert Kane is an elusive fellow, but some links:

• http://www.jckonline.com/2010/08/26/gemstones-colombian-emeralds-short-supply-montana-sapphires-demand
• http://www.libertinejewelry.com/about/ConchitabutterflySmithPR050207.pdf (already in article)
• http://www.jckonline.com/2003/01/03/fine-gems-intl-launches-montana-blues-campaign

Hope all is helpful. Montanabw^(talk) 00:03, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Yogo sapphire/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Jessemv (talk · contribs) 01:57, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

• Object There are multiple text issues that need to be addressed before it can pass. Here are some of the issues that I see:

• In the lead: "They are considered among the finest sapphires in the world, and by some gem experts, the finest." Seems redundant, and "some" is a weasel word.

How about that?. Dreadstar ☥ 22:00, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

For this instance, I'm considering this  Done. Jessemv (talk) 22:09, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

Cool! Dreadstar ☥ 22:32, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

• In the lead: "is said to mean". Who says this? Does it actually mean that in the Blackfeet language? If so, it should say so directly.

 Done Fixed and expanded upon, with ref. Dreadstar ☥ 22:10, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

• In the lead: "Yogo sapphires are rarer than diamonds." is really short and should be merged with adjacent sentences. At the very least it should have a connecting words like "moreover", "Indeed", etc.

 Done I combined it with the info on it's discovery, hopefully that makes sense. Dreadstar ☥ 22:32, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

• "Yogo Gulch is located in what today is" Confusing, and historical wording seems unnecessary. Perhaps just "Yogo Gultch is located in ..., east of Great Falls, Montana"

Not sure if this should be in parenthesis or not,[5]. Figured it would be good to say what it was called at the time. Dreadstar ☥ 22:40, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps "historically called..." works better. Just a thought. Jessemv (talk) 22:46, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

That's a good idea, I'll give it a try! I'm now looking at the entire section, as you mention three points below with the request for breaks in the location section. Might have to restructure that whole section. I'll work on that next. Dreadstar ☥ 22:56, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

 Done in conjunction with the below section break request. Dreadstar ☥ 01:34, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

• There are three citations following that statement, which seems a little on the high end. In fact, excessive numbers of sequential citations are used throughout the article. They distract from readability, and are likely redundant. Choose the best, and reduce the number down to one or two. See Wikipedia:Citation overkill

 Done Cite overkill indicates 5 or more is overkill. Thomas the Slav was the main page FA only 3 days ago and it has cases of three refs in a row. I've reduced cases in Yogo sapphire to three as you do not make a valid case that over 2 is overkill.PumpkinSky talk 19:05, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

• " the word "Yogo" is alleged to mean "blue sky" in Piegan Blackfeet" Again, same issue as in the lead. Does it mean this in the language or not? If so, say so, but keeping the " there is some dispute about this translation" statement is probably appropriate. However, this statement doesn't seem to really fit with the section title. It could however be cleverly placed in the opening lines.

 Done Fixed and expanded upon, with ref. From the way I'm reading it, the name (romance, blue sky) seem to relate to the actual location being...well, romantic with blue skey...but if it still doesn't fit that section, I'll try to fix further. Dreadstar ☥ 22:10, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

• I'd recommend some paragraph breaks in the Location section, it seems a bit long and the sentences don't flow together as well as they could. Perhaps there could be two paragraphs: one on historical locations, and one about the current location. The relationship of the sapphires to the gulch needs to be more clear. I'm assuming the location of the gems hasn't changed over time, except in where we politically classify it.

Dreadstar worked this. PumpkinSky talk 00:07, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

Much better! I concerned though with the two-sentence paragraph at the end of the section. Since its short, it should be either expanded or integrated into the above text. If the latter, it might work best at the end of the first paragraph. Jessemv (talk) 00:39, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

Made it part of the preceding paragraph. PumpkinSky talk 00:50, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

Works well.  Done. Jessemv (talk) 01:00, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

• "East of the river is Pig-Eye Basin—where Jake Hoover, claimed to be the discoverer of Yogo sapphires, had a ranch" I'm not sure why this statement is important, or the information following it. I'm assuming its there for some context, but it doesn't really mean much to me. If it is important to the formation of the sapphires, please tell why. The ranch mention seems like an excessive detail.

Don't think it's excessive, ties in Hoover to the locale. PumpkinSky talk 00:07, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

So it does. You do mention his ranch twice though, but I don't it's that big of a deal. Issue  Done. Jessemv (talk) 00:39, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

• "in situ" See scare quotes. This should italicized, by wrapping the word in double apostrophes, like this. The wikilink is fine though.

 Done Fixed, valid point. PumpkinSky talk 19:05, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

• I do like the "Yogo sapphires are unique among the world's sapphires: ..." paragraph, nice job on that. Although there's a sentence that starts with "because" and I don't think that's grammatically correct.

Chg'd to "since...formed" PumpkinSky talk 00:11, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

Nice. I'm considering this  Done. Jessemv (talk) 00:39, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

• "Some gem experts consider them the finest sapphires in the world." Again, weasel word. I don't doubt the statement, but who said this? Also, this paragraph has excessive citations, in one case six, which is definitely overkill. Like I said above, reduce them and use the best you can find.

Changed to "According to...." PumpkinSky talk 15:34, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

It's better, but unfortunately I believe "many" is still a weasel word. See Weasel words#Forms. I understand what you are trying to say, but its a "Numerically vague expression". Personally, if the US Geological Survey considers yogo sapphires the finest, and as such an authoritative figure that completely convinces me. If you feel that the mentioning of these "many" gem experts complements the USGS's statement, then perhaps you should find a few of the more notable experts and use them instead. I don't know if "many" implies that the majority of all gem experts everywhere agree on this statement, or if the "many" was extrapolated from Stephen Voynick's observations of a smaller group. So I believe that still needs to be fixed in either way I described. Jessemv (talk) 21:22, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

Jeez dude, USGS says "AMONG the finest". Voynick says "THE FINEST". That's NOT the same thing. Voynick doesn't list specific names in his book. I really don't see there's much else to do on this one. PumpkinSky talk 21:38, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

Well if Voynick doesn't specifically mention names, then weasel words are the only thing that can be used. Since they're frowned upon, if Yoynick says they are the finest in the world, then put down his notability/authority on the matter, and just say that he states that. Jessemv (talk) 22:00, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

Changed. PumpkinSky talk 22:17, 4 December 2011 (UTC)...Changed it back. As it was a minute is not accurate as Voynick didn't say that, others did. PumpkinSky talk 22:21, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

From this in your point below, I'm dropping this issue, so  Done Jessemv (talk) 23:07, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

• "It is believed that the reason Yogos are almost always blue rather than coming in as wide variety of colors as other Montana sapphires is that their bedrock had a much longer cooling time" I think "It is believed" could be reworded. Try "Current theory holds", "Yogo sapphires are almost always blue because", "X believes that Yogo sapphires are almost always blue because", or something like that. On top of that fix, commas or parentheses should be used in this statement. For example: "In contrast to traditional Montana sapphires, Yogo sapphires are almost always blue because their bedrock has a longer cooling time."

I liked the last suggestion and put that in. PumpkinSky talk 15:04, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

So I see.  Done Jessemv (talk) 15:25, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

• "It contains large amounts of biotite and pyroxene." I'd recommend that this be merged with another sentence, such as the first one in the paragraph.

 Done However I tried it this sounded clunky and awkward, so I did some rearranging that I think sounds betterPumpkinSky talk 20:40, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

• "There had been considerable debate ..." paragraph: the citation is way at the end, which makes me a bit suspicious that the sentences at the beginning could be original research. Name the citation on the first use, and then place it at the end of every two or three sentences, so its absolutely clear the material is covered by said citation. While citations can detract from readability, having it only at the end of the long paragraph like that is too far off balance I think. See Wikipedia:Citing sources. Also applies to some of the paragraphs in the Mining History section.

 Done. Good point, this para is pulled from an 8-page discussion. PumpkinSky talk 20:40, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

• " surface. This is why the Yogos found to date are generally small." I suggest better linking between these sentences, like "surface, causing the Yogo sapphires to be generally small."

 Done. PumpkinSky talk 20:43, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

• "The Yogo sapphire deposit is located in a silica-poor lamproite igneous rock dike cutting into limestone that intruded a fissure into the earth" Wording issues. Try "The Yogo sapphire deposit is located in a silica-poor lamproite igneous rock dike, which transitions into limestone as it intrudes into a fissure." Does this sound better?

So changed.PumpkinSky talk 15:37, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

 Done Jessemv (talk) 23:07, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

• "Mining at the English Mine confirmed this as the deeper the digging there got, the more likely miners were to find bigger Yogo roughs." Probably change to something like "Subsequent mining at the English Mine confirmed this" or "This was confirmed by subsequent mining at the English Mine."

Done. PumpkinSky talk 20:43, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

It's better, but it's still a bit redundant. How about "... generally small, which was later confirmed by subsequent mining at the English Mine." If the geology does indeed cause the smaller roughs to be near the surface, then this will be confirmed by digging. I don't think you need to describe the size-depth distribution twice. Jessemv (talk) 22:09, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

Changed, agree that's better. PumpkinSky talk 02:47, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

 Done Jessemv (talk) 02:56, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

• "... and initially gave Montana sapphires a bad name". I realize the "a bad name" comes from the citation source, but it just seems informal. Try a synonym like "discredit", or perhaps there is a better word.

Changed to "poor reputation" PumpkinSky talk 03:07, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

I was thinking more along the lines of "and initially discredited Montana sapphires", but that works as well.  Done Jessemv (talk) 03:14, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

• "have very good color". Is there better word choice?

 Done PumpkinSky talk 20:50, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

• Mining history section: no real issues that I can spot, just make sure you follow GA criteria by not delving into unnecessary details. In that regard, the monetary values given raise the biggest alarm in my mind. Perhaps someone can follow up and say one way or the other here, but just really think about keeping with summary style.

Totally disagree. Monetary values are not trivial, especially when the mine and its production of Yogos has been an economic yoyo. PumpkinSky talk 21:15, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

Ahhh. I did not understand that the prices fluctuated that much. In light of this, yes the values would be important. If the fluctuation is important, perhaps that should be more clear. Otherwise, it just sounds to me as a "so-and-so did this for $X" with little connection between them. Jessemv (talk) 22:09, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

Hmm. I thought it was obvious but maybe it's because I know the history so well. Will think on how to do this. Open to suggestions. PumpkinSky talk 02:50, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

It's stated, or at least hinted at in the beginning of the section where it talks about the geologic nature of the site making Yogos expensive. PumpkinSky talk 15:52, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

I know absolutely nothing of the underlying history. I've also thought more about this, and after you pointed it out I realized that the numbers illustrate the growing apparent value of the mine. So this is  Done as well. Jessemv (talk) 21:22, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

• "95% of the time". The word "time" was just used. Consider something like "with an accuracy of 95%"

 Done PumpkinSky talk 20:50, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

• The "Notable Yogo sapphires" section I think delves into unnecessary details, and one sentences is followed by four citations. Consider honing this section a bit more.

Disagree here too. It's only two paras long and many people like to know these sort of historic and notable connections.PumpkinSky talk 21:17, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

Well, each is a pretty long paragraph. I for one am interested in the historical connections, but I'm looking at lines like "... if she would take a set of sapphires from Montana and create a piece of finished jewelry" and "Crevoshay named the brooch "Conchita" in honor of her mother." and "The brooch can also be worn as a pendant or clasp and can be beaded." as examples of information that, although interesting, may not be particularly notable. If these actually are important aspects of the historical connection, then I would suggest trying to summarize them a bit more, and connect them to adjacent sentences. The second paragraph doesn't really have this issue, although it could use better transitions in the sections including and in between "Yogo sapphires also won a bronze medal ..." to "... Bess Truman, and their daughter Margaret Truman." The citation issue is fixed. Jessemv (talk) 22:09, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

Did some trim and ce here. PumpkinSky talk 15:42, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

 Done. Jessemv (talk) 21:22, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

• "The gems in question were being donated to the Smithsonian's Gem and Mineral Collection by gemologist Robert Kane of Fine Gems International in Helena, Montana, which has the largest selection of Montana sapphires in the world." There's a passive voice here which could be addressed by placing the subject, verb, and noun in better order. Something like "Gemologist Robert Kane of Fine Gems International, which has the largest selection of Montana sapphires in the world, donated these gems to the Smithsonian's Gem and Mineral Collection." Is that better?

So changed. PumpkinSky talk 15:44, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

Indeed. Very nice.  Done. Jessemv (talk) 21:22, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

The article has some good potential, but there are some stumbling blocks that I think are holding it back. This is my first GA review. I hope what I have listed helps with improving the article. Getting it to Good Article criteria takes significant work, and I wish you best of luck. Jessemv (talk) 01:57, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

I just noticed the banner at the top of the Talk page changed when I saved my review, and it said that it was up to the first reviewer (me) to pass the article. Over the next week or two, I don't believe I'll have enough time to follow up, so I'll need someone else to do that. Sorry for any confusion this generated. Jessemv (talk) 02:06, 3 December 2011 (UTC) Correction, I'll do my best to follow through, now that I've started this. Once again, I apologize for this apparently uncouth statement. I do still welcome further reviewers. Jessemv (talk) 04:53, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

I'm impressed at the speed in which these issues were addressed. Thank you very much; the article is looking much nicer now. Here's the results from my re-read, and the test of the GA criteria:

It does contains appropriate images, which have proper licenses and captions. However, there are several images that seem pretty blurry, and I'd recommend you try to get ones that are cleaner. For example, why in File:Point-19 carat diamond cut blue Yogo sapphireCROP.jpg does the camera's focus drop so quickly? Surely there's an image of the entire sapphire. The image of a "one-carat Yogo sapphire" on a pedestal would be much better if it wasn't "taken with blurry cell phone camera". And the last image of the blue shallow sapphire could be better, as I'm not positive what I'm actually looking at. See Wikipedia:How to improve image quality. Now, I don't see the GA criteria specifically stating that the images have to be clean and crystal clear, so I'm debating about whether this holds back the article from GA or not. I guess they're not as "illustrative" as they could be. I'll research policy a bit more, but in the meantime I advise you to improve their quality.

Now you're being really excessive picky. Blurry pics won't even stop something from being FA. PumpkinSky talk 21:39, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

Besides while free sapphire photos aren't hard to find, free YOGO sapphire photos are VERY rare. PumpkinSky talk 21:47, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

In light of this and your statement below, I've reconsidered and this is  Done Jessemv (talk) 23:07, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

The article is factually accurate and verifiable and as far as I can tell does not contain original research, so that passes. It's broad in its coverage, neutral, stable, and maintains proper summary style without going into unnecessary details, so that works as well.

I do have a few additional issues with the text, but they are pretty minor now.

A FEW? Call a spade a spade. It's NOT a few, but I'll get working on them. PumpkinSky talk 21:40, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

• Location section: "The Yogo area to the west." What? Insert a missing "is", but perhaps its better to connect it to another sentence. What is "Yogo area"? The mine itself?

copyedited. PumpkinSky talk 21:49, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

 Done Jessemv (talk) 23:07, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

• Minerology section: "... other than blue, almost always purple,[14] very rarely reddish." How about "other than blue: almost always purple, and very rarely reddish.[14]"?

Changed. PumpkinSky talk 21:49, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

 Done Jessemv (talk) 23:07, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

• Minerology section: "The largest cut Yogo is a 10.2 carat gem held by the Smithsonian Institution." The paragraph talks about how fine they are, describes how large Yogos are rare and expensive, details their color, and then ends with a statement which complements the size descriptions again. Perhaps this sentence better belongs earlier in the paragraph, or change the order of the sentences in another way. I'm hoping I'm not stepping into FA text requirements, but I'm just trying to say that the organization in this paragraph could be a bit better.

Moved before, forgot to comment here. PumpkinSky talk 00:27, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

OK.  Done Jessemv (talk) 00:48, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

• Mining history: "Nonetheless, sapphire mining at Yogo Gulch began in 1895[19] when someone finally thought to investigate the nature of the "blue pebbles." If the citation covers the entire sentence, it should be placed at the end. If the citation does not cover the end of the sentence, it would probably be best to apply after the period the citation that does.

SOmeone else did that because I never put refs in the middle like that. Moved.PumpkinSky talk 21:55, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

 Done Jessemv (talk) 23:07, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

• Mining history: "western portion of the Yogo dike; areas Hoover had" I believe a colon is better here, since the two clauses aren't independent.

Swapped. PumpkinSky talk 21:57, 4 December 2011 (UTC)...Changed my mind, a : is not correct. PumpkinSky talk 22:21, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

No, I still think a colon is better. The latter clause further explains the first. See Colon (punctuation). Jessemv (talk) 23:07, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

Changed. PumpkinSky talk 00:30, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

OK.  Done Jessemv (talk) 00:48, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

• Mining history: "Like so many other Yogo ventures," The word "many" again. Try "Similar to the previous Yogo ventures,"

Changed. PumpkinSky talk 21:57, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

 Done Jessemv (talk) 23:07, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

• Mining history: "Baron organized some German and Thai gemcutters". The word "some". I believe you can remove that word entirely without changing the meaning of the sentence.

Cut. PumpkinSky talk 21:57, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

 Done Jessemv (talk) 23:07, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

• "when Herman Yaras bought it for $585.000." Shouldn't this be "$585,000."? I'm assuming the period should be changed to a comma.

Fixed. PumpkinSky talk 22:01, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

 Done Jessemv (talk) 23:07, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

• "Yaras was from Oxnard, California." Unnecessary detail? If not I'd recommend merging it with another sentence, as I was initially confused by "Yaras' firm was called Sapphire Village, Inc. Yaras was from Oxnard, California." since the sentence break wasn't obvious at first.

Not excessive. Shows interest from California, a state most Montanans detest. Tweaked this. PumpkinSky talk 22:01, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

All right. Much better now.  Done Jessemv (talk) 23:07, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

• ""Mining" on these homesites was limited to hand tools." I don't see why its important to put this in quotes, because it seems like it's a scare quote.

Fixed. PumpkinSky talk 22:03, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

 Done Jessemv (talk) 23:07, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

• "due to the world wide oil crises" The word is just "worldwide"

Fixed. PumpkinSky talk 22:03, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

 Done Jessemv (talk) 23:07, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

• "the whole specturm of the business" Typo.

Fixed. PumpkinSky talk 22:03, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

 Done Jessemv (talk) 23:07, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

• "Brown discovered he could get the best gemcutters for the best price, who were also willing to improve their skills, in Thailand. This is where American Yogo Sapphire Limited set up its network of cutters." Perhaps "Brown discovered quality gemcutters in Thailand who were willing to improve their skills, and accordingly set up the American Yogo Sapphire Company at that location."

Changed. PumpkinSky talk 22:05, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

 Done Jessemv (talk) 23:07, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

• I recommend interspersing the appropriate citations throughout the "Kunisaki then put his mine up for sale, asking $6 million to recoup his expenses." paragraph.

Completed. PumpkinSky talk 22:09, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

 Done Jessemv (talk) 23:07, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

• "which contained a lot of dirt." Perhaps just remove this, and replace it with "However," to join it with the next sentence.

Reworded.PumpkinSky talk 22:09, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

There's now a long run-on sentence. Try just "... purchased Citibank's four sealed bags of Yogo material. However, only one of the bags was truly valuable." This way, the fact that dirt isn't valuable is implied as well. Jessemv (talk) 23:07, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

Fixed.PumpkinSky talk 23:35, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

Indeed so.  Done Jessemv (talk) 00:24, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

• "using methods such as recycling all water and not using chemicals." Water is a chemical, so try another word. See Dihydrogen monoxide hoax.

Yea, but most don't think of it as one. Inserted "other". PumpkinSky talk 22:15, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

Works.  Done Jessemv (talk) 23:07, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

• "Most are from the Rock Creek deposit." Most is a weasel word. How many? Perhaps insert this back into a previous sentence, such as the "He provided 333 Montana sapphires weighing 27.97 carats along with 98.48 grams of 18K yellow gold for the project." If this is done, of course remove the "however" in "The largest one, however, is a blue Yogo..."

Not all Montana sapphires (non-Yogo) are from Rock Creek. As the article says, there are others. This let people know which one. I'll say majority. PumpkinSky talk 22:15, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

This works much better.  Done Jessemv (talk) 23:07, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

• "...Montana gold. In 1952 Gadsden gave cut Yogos..." Try inserting "Then", since you have two adjacent "In [year], ..." sentences.

Inserted. PumpkinSky talk 22:15, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

 Done Jessemv (talk) 23:07, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

Now, these issues are relatively minor. Overall, the article is put together well, and I congratulate you on your efforts. The text issues I've suggested will simply improve readability and the quality of the text, but the information is already there. Provided they are taken care of, I should have no problem passing the article for GA. Jessemv (talk) 21:22, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

Jesse, I am going to review recent edits and put in changes I think need to happen. I have a few concerns about your review and do not concur that all of your recommendations are correct or necessary. First, I am going to recommend that you not nitpick punctuation, particularly when you are not correct (as in your suggestion that a colon is better than a semicolon; the semicolon was proper in that instance, though there are multiple ways that sentence could be punctuated). There are numerous ways to do things, and there is a place for stylistic differences. Also, on a GA-class article, the criteria is not as stringent as for FA, and you need to back off a little and let the editors do their job. Second, you are not understanding the purpose of "weasel" words ... sometimes these indefinite terms are needed because that is what the sources themselves say, they give us no more, we are stuck with "some, many, most, and few." Not all topics have the benefit of access to scientific studies or opinion polling. Thus the mere presence of an indefinite term does not mean it violates WP guidelines. Third, while the detail here may in places need to be tightened up a bit and the prose made a bit more "sparkling" (as the WP guidelines suggest) these sections do not present undue weight, they are needed because the history of the gem and the mining activities are crucial to the topic and covered nowhere else. And fourth, as for the photographs, they are as good as we can get at the moment -- the problem is that we need free images, Yogos are hard to find, and so we basically have amateur photographers doing the job. We don't have expensive cameras with macro lenses -- gem photography is, as I just discovered personally, a challenge. I took one of the images in this article, here's how: on short notice I only had my cell phone camera handy to spontaneously get an image after sweet-talking a jeweler into taking his time to let me see a $5000 unset gem he knew I clearly was not going to purchase...! When I get my courage up, again, and have time, I am going to have to see if my regular digital camera is even capable of taking a marco image (It's a point and shoot with some macro capacity -- I'll have to practice on a ring I have at home or something) and if it is, I MIGHT be able to talk the nice jeweler into letting me photograph that gem again. He might say yes, he might not. Even then, the image might not be much better! Montanabw^(talk) 22:14, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

All right. In the future I'll work on not being so picky about GA text requirements. When someone else GA reviews the article I'm working on, I know I would appreciate it if they really looked over the text and informed me as to how I could really hone it. Since there's no guarantee as to how quickly editing is going to happen after the GA passes, and I don't know what PumpkinSky's plans are, I thought I'd try to point out what I was having issues with. I understand FA has to have the best possible text, and I didn't think I was that good of a writer to analyzing the text that deep. I'm sorry if I caused offense there, as its clear that as the primary contributor PumpkinSky's put significant work into the article, and is motivated to improve it, so I thought I could help to that end. That way when it passes GA we can really sit back and be proud of this fascinating article. But I've learned from my mistake and I'll try to avoid that there. As for your second issue, my understanding came from the weasel words article. I was just trying to reduce any possible confusion into what the statement actually said. Several Wikipedians have corrected me on my application of weasel words, so I thought it was a requirement that needed to be taken care of. After further review of this Manual of Style page, I see that they are words to watch for and avoid if possible, but you are correct, their presence shouldn't hold an article back. Thus, a suggestion like that would have been better outside of a GA review, I stand corrected here. PumpkinSky has addressed my issues with those long sections, so there's not a problem here anymore. Finally, thank you for explaining the situations with the gem images, I have a better understanding of how difficult it is to get a better photo. The images are adequate (abeit not optimal) so do work in the article. Improving the quality would be beneficial to the article and Wikipedia at large, so I wish you the best of luck with that. As stated above, I marked the images as fine. Jessemv (talk) 23:07, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

Jesse, you did good, just went overboard a bit on a few things (weasels and photos). I'd gladly work with you again. Your copyedit ideas (reword this to that) were really good. Most people just say "your writing sucks, fix it" and don't tell you how. PumpkinSky talk 23:39, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

Well thank you. I'll try to avoid going overboard on the weasel words and images, I'll think more on how I can handle those better next time. I'm glad you appreciated my copyediting ideas; I mean if I'm going to take the time to point out a specific issue I might as well take it one step further by offering some thoughts. As I've said before, this is my first GA review, so its been a very educational experience for me. Even though I'm wincing a bit at Montanabw jumping in and correcting me, I'll consider what she said for next time. Anyway, as of right now you've got two remaining issues left (both are from my re-read, near the top) and as soon as those are taken care of I'll be happy to pass it. Thank you for your hard work. Jessemv (talk) 00:24, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

He's a she. PumpkinSky talk 00:26, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

Once again, I stand corrected and apologize. Fixed. Jessemv (talk) 00:48, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

Aw, heck, ya did good kid! Nice job! Expecially for a first time! A pleasure working with both of you on this. Dreadstar ☥ 01:18, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

Sounds like we can now all hold hands and sing Kumbayah. I'm glad to see the good-faith tone here. I sort of gave up on seeking GA status for articles because I got tired of being nitpicked to death, the last one I did on my own nom went OK, but I hadn't initiated one for almost two years due to my frustration with the process, I was mostly (like this case) supporting others' leads. For future use, I think there is a "on review" tag (purple in color) rather than an "on hold" tag that sometimes is a bit milder but keeps the article in the queue and open to improvements. Sometimes, it's a good idea to start with general suggestions, like "section X is a bit wordy, you may want to review it and tighten up the language," or "I think you have too many run-on sentences (or too many short, choppy sentences), can you take a look at that?" Just some thoughts. Montanabw^(talk) 01:49, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

I'm happy now ;-) As for me, I liked the specific copy editing suggestions because I'm not that good at copy editing. PumpkinSky talk 01:53, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

Sorry for your bad experiences there Montanabw. Not sure if I'll regret saying this later, but I'm looking forward to being nitpicked, since when I get Folding@home up to GA I'll probably take a Wikibreak, and I want to do so that knowing that I left behind a quality piece of work, with 500-600 views per day, and no regrets of "well I COULD have done this..." Actually, I started this whole thing because I believe I'm good with copy editing, but its nice to carry it through. I'll keep that On Review tag idea in mind; I didn't see it under Wikipedia:Good article nominations. Now that I know a bit more about how GA Reviews go, perhaps I'll do more. Apparently there's quite a backlog. :D Thanks to both of you. Jessemv (talk) 02:04, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

Coordinates in lead

I added coordinates for Yogo Creek since Yogo Gulch is not in the USGS names data. There is also a Yogo Crossing and Sapphire Village close by. Both have coordinates. We should use the one that most approximates Yogo Gulch. --Mike Cline (talk) 22:41, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

Great job! PumpkinSky talk 22:52, 4 December 2011 (UTC)