User talk:Doug Weller

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Coming here to ask why I reverted your edit? Read this page first...

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Venus of Hohle Fels

Hi again Doug, It's been a long time, but I see that you've moved up from moderating sci.arch. to moderating Wikipedia. Congratulations!

With respect to the COI question you raised about my contribution to the Venus of Hohle Fels, I just wanted to tell you that, in accordance with WIKI guidelines, I added a notice to my user page announcing that I have a COI because I've published articles on this and the entries I've edited. Since I'm relatively new to this, however, I'm not sure whether doing so allows me to now edit entries that I do have a COI in, or whether publishing in a field -- paradoxically and seemingly illogically -- prevents people from editing entries in that field?

In either case, the articles I wrote were refereed and published in reputable journals by specialists who evidently saw some value in the views I was espousing. But it appears that many of the people who edited the same entries I did -- in some cases redacting or entirely removing my additions -- never published anything on these subjects, deducibly because they have relatively little or no expertise in those fields.

I should note that the position I added to the Venus of Hohle Fels is the subject of a forthcoming "Brief Communication" in "Nature" questioning Nicholas Conard's and Paul Mellars's conclusion that the Venus of Hohle Fels was sculpted to depict a headless woman as a "fertility" symbol. Berlant (talk) 11:30, 8 July 2011 (UTC)Berlant

Sorry to take so long to reply. Yes, a long time, good to see you. Not quite the same as moderation however, more to do with behavior, copyright issues, vandals, etc. We welcome people with expertise and who have published, and adding the notice was an excellent idea. We do worry about editors adding their own sources (you'll see complaints at WP:COIN and you might want to look at that and its archives). WP:COI really covers everything though. When looking at your edits in relationship to WP:SELFCITE what came to mind was the sentence about WP:UNDUE " In any case, citations should be in the third person and should not place undue emphasis on your work, giving proper due to the work of others, as in a review article.". I felt, and it was just a feeling, that there was too much detail in relationship to the rest of the article (in at least on instance and I think more, sorry I can't recall which right now but I think it's the Venus of Hohle Fels, maybe another one as well). The other thing that can cause a COI editor grief is if they could be shown to be aware of criticisms of their work but avoid mentioning those. That would fall foul of WP:NPOV when coupled with the COI. Short answer: edit, cite you own work where it's published in clearly reliable sources (I'm hoping you've read the appropriate links for that), avoid giving your work undue weight, if anyone reverts take it to the article talk page, don't try to force it back in. Dougweller (talk) 12:17, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

Your edits here [1] look far too assertive to me. If you want a discussion of them you could ask at WP:NPOVN which would also show good faith (although it's a bad time of year for that board). You might want to look at Wikipedia:Manual of Style (words to watch)

I also think 'ancient mycologists' is an anachronism, how widely used is the phrase? Dougweller (talk) 12:23, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for getting back to me, Doug -- especially with an open mind and links to the WIKI guidelines I need to become familiar with.

As I admittedly do have a tendency to write assertively, I often qualify my assertions, and did in this case, with the phrase "arguably, if not certainly." I believe, however, that I am familiar enough with the world view of the people who have contributed to and edited the entry for "Entheogen" to surmise that they'll consider my addition thought provoking, as opposed to "too assertive." But, if anyone does question it, I'd be more than happy to discuss it with him or her, and redact it if necessary.

As for the phrase 'ancient mycologists', I don't think it's either widely used or anachronistic in that (1) a mycologist is simply someone who studies fungi, (2) 'ancient' refers to the period before 476 BPE, and (3) an ancient mycologist is thus anyone (e.g., Pliny The Elder) who was studying fungi before that date. If anything, I suppose I could have been more specific by using 'prehistoric' or 'prototypal', instead of 'ancient,' but, imo, the point is moot.

Hopefully, however, the people who read it won't be as semantically focused as you are :-), and none of my future edits will take up as much of your time as these did. Take care! Berlant (talk) 12:50, 9 July 2011 (UTC) Berlant

ValloVir block

Forget something important? Prodego ^talk 17:04, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

Damn, I thought I'd done that! Thanks for catching it. Useless block without it. Dougweller (talk) 17:14, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

Atlantis

Thanks for your input. I have reworded the entry, added some more info and provided references. Cheers, --Phagopsych (talk) 17:44, 10 July 2011 (UTC)

Lost Worlds.org

Don't know if you've ever followed links to this site or not, [2], but I'm growing increasingly uncomfortable with them. I've read thru a few of their articles and quit a few of them push fringe theories, usually involving a Mexican origin for the Mississippian cultures of Georgia. In fact it seems to be a pervasive thread that runs thru the majority of their articles that I have looked at. This is a theory that I believe has no acceptance in academia and is a debunked fringe theory at best. They have plenty of useful info otherwise, lots of neat graphics, etc, but their focus on this idea bothers me. What are your thoughts on it? Heiro 12:53, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

I'll ask around. Meanwhile, here's another of his websites [3]. Evidently the lost worlds work was a Master's project, here's info about the video. [4]. Dougweller (talk) 14:42, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

Well, that first one doesn't give me alot of hope, lol. Heiro 18:47, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

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== Chicha ==

I believe the correct source is a Don Luis G. Iza, see for example page 307 of this 1884 book. I honestly have no idea whether the "G" stands for "Goatherd", but I have corrected the article and added this reference. Thanks for bringing this to my attention! Best, Btyner (talk) 02:02, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for that, but why should it be in the article at all? It doesn't seem significant - if this is the only suggestion that the word is Nahuatl and that is from a Mexican playwright then I don't think it belongs in the article. Dougweller (talk) 04:36, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

NSW NPWS

I noticed that you removed the photograph from the NSW National Parks and Wildlife Service, I had a feeling it was an hoax photograph but couldn't prove it. If there was an OTRS sent or somewhere they made the complaint as I'll be listing the photograph for DR on Commons. Bidgee (talk) 09:32, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

Ticket 2011071210004476. Thanks, I was wondering about that. How did you notice it? Dougweller (talk) 09:37, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

Thanks, I have the article watch listed, must have edited it at some stage and had noticed when they added the photograph (my feeling of an hoax was the uniform and the vehicle which also lacks the logo). Had noticed you also stated "complaint" in the edit summary and thought it would have to be sent via OTRS. Bidgee (talk) 09:45, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

Very sensible - and astute of you to notice the lack of logo. Dougweller (talk) 09:57, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

@@@== Jan Smuts ==

I see you are an administrator. That is a bit of a shock. But no matter. I have other things to do than to spend my time on Wikipedia. Cheers. Enjoy. pietopper (talk) 18:33, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

No reason to be shocked. A lot of us are pretty intelligent, it's not just me. Dougweller (talk) 20:30, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

I see your devotion to NPOV clearly shining through on reverting an adequately (perhaps not perfectly)sourced quotation from Aristotle that I spent some time to research. Clearly you do not want the article on Holism to be dignified by anything like a classical reference. Why don't you take a little peek at the section in the Jan Smuts article dealing with segregation? It is just littered with dead links and references which point to sources that do not even mention the subject. Personally, I would just wholesale delete there, but I just know what a shitstorm will follow. Anyway, I won't be editing here no more, no more. pietopper (talk) 20:48, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

The problem is that what you call research is, I suspect, what we call original research. What you needed to do is find source meeting our criteria that made the claim you made. I'm not interested in the Smuts article, but I did delete a statement in the Gandhi article about Kaffir having a different meaning because the source didn't mention him, so I don't think you can use NPOV against me. Dougweller (talk) 20:52, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

I am not using anything against you and don't plan to. I promised myself when I joined Wikipedia that this was to relieve stress, not to create it. Further, I did not make any "claim" whatsoever, I merely pointed out that "the sum is greater than the parts" echoes the quote from Aristotle, which it plainly does. pietopper (talk) 21:10, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

Fine, and I don't doubt your good faith with that, but it's fundamental policy that such statements need to be cited to reliable sources (reliable by our criteria). Our own research has no place here unless it's published in such a source. Dougweller (talk) 05:53, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

Thisthat2011

I notice that in June you commented at Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard/archive1#Resolution_3 that there might be a case to take the issue of Thisthat2011 to RFC/U. I have no idea if that happened but note that the contributor is causing issues at Talk:Kurmi, Talk:Romila Thapar, Wikitalk:India and numerous other talk pages (including my own).

His/her edits are consuming vast amounts of time that other people (including me - yes, I am involved) could be spending doing something that actually benefits the project. Is RFC/U the only way to deal with this? The user has had numerous warnings since May but nothing seems to be sinking in. - Sitush (talk) 10:12, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

(1)Thisthat is a new editor, only a few weeks old[[5]] but quite prolific (by my standards - 2500+ edits), so he is bound to have made lots of mistakes, everybody makes mistakes, for example there is confusion with the term Other Backward Class, in the Kurmi article, which I tried to correct, but was undone, there is misinterpretation of sources, of course user talk:Sitush is partially right, but I wished to make as little change in the article as possible, and correct a mistake (here is the diff[6]) -officially Kurmis are OBC, C stands for Class and not Caste, and wished the established editors to tweak it, but Sitush did not do that but simply undid my edit, leaving the mistake in the article, my point is every body makes mistakes you have to AGF. ((2)(a)What editors don't seem to understand is that Shudra is a slur, in independent India there is no place for caste heirarchy. It has been abolished.[7] I have given ghits because one may choose the source one prefers. In the article there are six instances of that word, which shouldn't have been used except in quotations, in historical contexts, its use should be dealt with the same caution that one would use with the word negro or eskimo. Editors who want to use it, may be more accurate in their argument, in the little things, but they are missing the bigger picture. Its use is a demonstration of lack of sensitivity. For example there were communities that were categorised as criminal by the British Colonial government in India, ethnic profiling if you may call it that. But that is history, would anyone still like to use that lable ex-criminal, more over when the original designation a mistake. You can't categorise humans like that. (3)If I am not clear, please ask don't assume. (4)My point is that the pro-S****a, is missing the bigger picture and needs to AGF and understand the grievance of the anti camp regarding the Kurmi page. (5)Locking is not a bad idea, but it should be followed by discussions on the talk page.Yogesh Khandke (talk) 03:17, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

Diff of a perception of the issue by an emic editor, MatthewVanitas, although I do not claim to be neutral, I wonder if you have any real familiarity with this subject... The article is asserting that Kurmis are a Shudra jati in India. Fact is, nobody in India is a Shudra. Do you know that it is illegal in India to describe anyone as a "Shudra"? That "Shudra" has become a taboo word in India..."[[8]], Matthew is another editor in the Kurmi discussion.Yogesh Khandke (talk) 04:18, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

If the Wikimedia Foundation is to meet its goal of reaching a readership of 1 billion by 2015 and increasing editors from the Global South by 37%, then relatively new editors like ThisThat2011 are the ones we have to encourage to follow rules, Wikipedia policies and more importantly to stick around. Zuggernaut (talk) 05:31, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

Zuggernaut poses a good point, but also cuts to a very critical issue: how do we go about integrating new editors into our culture when the very nature of what constitutes evidence, neutrality, and civil discourse are radically different than our own? As an example of what I mean, if you take a look at many high quality, mainstream Indian newspapers, you'll see much more editorializing within regular "factual" stories. Is there anything wrong with that? Certainly not--it was even common practice in US and European newspapers until fairly recently. And what about the willingness to rely on mytho-religious or oral "evidence" as "truth"? Again, I'm not being disparaging here--I actually wish there were a way for Wikipedia to incorporate oral tradition and other non "RS" knowledge, but I know that we can't (or we devolve into endless, unsolvable arguments) and that most current users wouldn't want to, but the very different cultural mindset is making the issue challenging. Now, this is obviously outside of the scope of Dougweller's talk page, but I actually ask these questions in seriousness. This is not me saying "this is an impossible goal". This is me saying "This is a difficult goal, more difficult than I think we/the Foundation first thought. How do we accomplish it"? I've raised similar issues regarding copyvios and editors from some East Asian cultures (where copying isn't just allowed, it is often venerated as an act of great respect). I think that many times we (i.e., those from the science, capitalist dominated West) tend to assume that our views evidence, intellectual property, and analysis are universal, when they are not; if we fail to account for differences, we inevitably drive away good faith contributors (which may, ultimately, be what we want to do, if we decide our core principles matter more). Qwyrxian (talk) 09:38, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

Requesting semi-protection of Microfinance

Hey buddy, could you please semi-protect the Microfinance article? If you glance at the history, you'll see a ton of edits by IP 122.165.30.38 persistently adding an external link to promote a Microfinance software solutions company that is neither notable nor relevant to the article. Numerous people have been reverting his additions, yet he persists. Cheers, John Shandy` • talk 05:09, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

As it's just one apparently static IP and you and others have been reverting it, I don't think it qualifies. But I've given the IP a final warning (if they'd been warned each time I'd have blocked) and will block if they do it again - but someone will have to tell me, I'm not adding it to the thousands on my watch list. Dougweller (talk) 05:16, 14 July 2011 (UTC)