User talk:Jimbo Wales

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Talk back

Hello, Jimbo Wales. You have new messages at Headbomb's talk page.
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Your appeal

This refers to the appeal here[1].

1. Do you have an India office. Those who don't have plastic money like me can send cheques there, to support wikipedia, a small but regular contribution.
   1. Wikipedia could relocate its operations to India, saving a lot of money and taking pressure off its bottom line. I am not in software etc. by the way and not looking for a job, etc., just a logical cost saving exercise suggestion.Yogesh Khandke (talk) 10:48, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

There are initiatives underway regarding presence in India, but I didn't pay attention so someone more knowledgeable will comment on that. However, I will say this about plastic money. Sadly, so many people have plastic money now, that for most fundraising drives, the cost of arranging for members of staff in a particular country to receive, cash, account, account for, legally clear, audit, etc etc., individual cheque/check (spelling varies according to location, so you were not wrong) donations, is more than the amount of money likely to be received. You also have to consider the possibility that the organisation then has to make separate arrangements for whatever restrictions exist on transferring such monies out of the country back to the parent organisation, then they have to somehow make arrangements for explaining all of these various expenses-incurred-in-fundraising in their accounting in the home country of how fundraising expenses were incurred, and they need extra people (or a portion of some people's time, possibly involving legal or accounting expertise) in order to do this. It just all gets too much.

I know little about Wikipedia's costs, but given its popularity and the robust existing software base, it is obvious that server hosting is a much larger proportion of the cost than software development, so outsourcing the entire outfit to India seems unlikely to happen anytime soon. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 02:52, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Most of the software development is done for free I think, pretty hard to undercut those rates. :) Arranging mobile-phone based payments might be more feasible than setting up local offices to handle paper transactions, and possibly available to many more people too. Franamax (talk) 03:16, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

There is no need of physically handling cheques. Payment can be made into the bank account of Wikipedia from other branches of that bank, from any location. For example if Wikipedia has an account with State Bank of India, Dadar, Mumbai branch, and account number is 1234567890123456 (sixteen digit no.), payment can be deposited into that account through any of the thousands of branches in India. Of-course there will be other legal formalities. But I know of atleast one US based charity Rotary International which receives millions of dollars from India Yogesh Khandke (talk) 12:53, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Is the Wikipedia Foundation balance sheet in public domain. What are the salary costs?Yogesh Khandke (talk) 12:54, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Yes. See here Gigs (talk) 23:21, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Am I the only one who finds it rather perverse to ask for donations from a country where the GDP, per person, is $1,032, to support an organization which recently decided to move to one of the most expensive locations in the US, and which wants to spend $10 million on salaries and travel? 96.15.21.223 (talk) 01:00, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

Well, there are actually people in India with a lot of money; I suspect that's who the WMF is targeting. If so many people from India edit here, why shouldn't they? The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 04:50, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

Well as per anon above I do have a point in that relocation would save costs greatly. I also agree with The Blade of the Northern Lights. For example I am prepared to pay per edit, say Rs. 1 per edit. A small sum. But there are many users and if they contribute Rs. 1 per minute on an average, some contributing more others not at all, that would be a lot of money. How many edits originate from India per year, assuming there are a 44 million edits a year or a 5000 an hour, that would amount to a million dollars a year. Though India is a poor country, it does contribute, for example it has a very high contribution to the Rotary Foundation. It is the third highest contributor to the Rotary Foundation one of the worlds largest NGO.[2]Yogesh Khandke (talk) 07:47, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

I had hoped Mr. Wales would have put in a word.Yogesh Khandke (talk) 07:54, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps Mr. Wales selects replies on edit summaries and I have a poor record regarding that. Mr. Wales please look at the above.Yogesh Khandke (talk) 08:00, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

Sorry to have taken so long to respond to this one. We are planning to open our first office in India within the next 6 months; the precise location has not been chosen yet. Barry Newstead at the Wikimedia Foundation is heading up that effort.

Regarding donations from India, I have received a few emails from people during this fund drive asking about how we might make that easier than it is right now. I've passed those concerns along to Zack for his consideration for improvements for next year.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 09:33, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

The Rotary Foundation methodology on transfering funds from India could be studied. Perhaps Mr. Wales could comment on out-sourcing as a means of achieving greater effeciency? Yogesh Khandke (talk) 19:05, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

I am all for it and think that it represents an interesting possibility. I should note that it is nontrivial and there are many different factors to consider. Further I note that I am not really the primary decisionmaker on such things, although I am an active board member.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 19:10, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

I'm glad you like the idea. Over and out.Yogesh Khandke (talk) 19:19, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

Ugly mug!

I wouldn't mind giving money to Wikipedia, or, say, paying a couple of quid a year to use it. But your ugly mug doesn't turn me on or make me wanna donate you know...

No offence, like. I'm sure women go for the grizzly look. But I don't need it! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.181.253.128 (talk) 19:31, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

I suppose I'm making an assumption here, but: Do you only donate to causes where the solicitation is made by an attractive woman? For example, at winter-holiday time, do you only throw change in the can when Santa is female? (I haven't seen one yet, but you never know...) Neutron (talk) 20:32, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Santa Baby might be a model for next year's appeal. Rodhullandemu 23:26, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

You have aged. "Ugly mug" might be a little far and a little salt and pepper never hurt a guy's image too bad (I'd say see Sean Connery but that is decades away for you). However, it is a little weird that every banner has your face. I assume you are not looking for a personality cult or anything, but this new campaign lacked some vision. The "personal appeal" was overshadowed by your image everywhere. So someone might have screwed up since you don't look like Alyssa Milano. That is partially the problem of the demographics of those who hit the site the most. I'm not donating regardless due to the trainwreck regarding sexual images. It will all work out and we have Google if it doesn't.Cptnono (talk) 09:37, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

Hooray! Disregard parts of above. I just saw a banner with someone else in it.Cptnono (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

This campaign is only making me consider installing adblock.

It's irritating, pervasive and gives the worst possible message.

If wikipedia is desperate for help it should say so, and your stare is only widely percieved (I checked) as a disturbing "will you come to bed with me?" look.

There are already spoffs and criticism all over the internet including a google chrome extension that puts your big brother face over each and every page you browse.

Ok you made a point, you made something sensational, spectacular, you made people talk, you got some of that Steve Jobs innuendo.

Now stop. I can't stand another monthful of that stare.

Zingus J. Rinkle (talk) 00:48, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

Violent / Hate Speech in Wikipedia

I already made a thread at ANI [3] about this, so I do not want to forum shop (and do not expect an answer specific to the question at ANI) but I think this is an important core issue. Basically, is hate speech / inciting to violence allowed in Wikipedia when it is sourced? Phoenix of9 03:47, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

Your behavior and attitude in the ANI thread is not ok. I recommend that you sit back and rest from this issue for awhile.

To answer your specific question to me (which was asked in a highly biased way, once I went to see what the real issue was), yes, of course it can be perfectly fine to quote hate speech or incitement to violence in Wikipedia, when it is relevant and a part of the history of some particular aspect of the world.

To answer your specific question over at ANI, first, I will say that it is a content issue best decided on the talk page of the article, but one that is a legitimate content issue that you can't short-circuit by simply screaming 'hate speech' about a quote from the Bible! In an article on same sex marriage, it seems rather obvious to me that at some point Biblical views need to be covered, and one very likely way to explore and explain to the reader the historical roots of traditional Christian opposition to same sex marriage would be to quote from the Bible. I'm not taking a firm stand on whether or not that quote should be included - that's up to a discussion on the page. I'm just saying that it's a worthwhile and perfectly reasonable discussion for people to have.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 09:29, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

I've commented on this in the ANI thread. Gwen Gale (talk) 10:06, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

Ok, I will take your advice and rest from this issue for awhile.

But, I am not sure if you misunderstood me or if I am misunderstanding you. I'm not saying any quote from the bible is "hate speech"; I am talking about "Leviticus 20:13" which seems to call for killing of gay people. And this is not strictly historical, eg: Uganda Anti-Homosexuality Bill, which some Christian groups in that country support and it could be argued that the basis of that bill is largely Christian/religious.

So, my final 2 questions: 1) Are you are saying that a reference to a specific text which calls for death of gay people is OK in a gay related article?

2) And the larger question is if incitement to violence is ok in Wikipedia (even if it is a current issue and not necessarily historical) when there might be a relevance to a certain Wikipedia article? Phoenix of9 16:10, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

By this logic, an article on Adolph Hitler would not be able to reference Mein Kampf. It doesn't make sense. The proper response to obnoxious statements is not to pretend that they weren't said. Looie496 (talk) 16:58, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

No that is not a correct analogy. The correct analogy would be adding references to Mein Kampf into Jewish People article under a section like "Contreversy". Phoenix of9 22:47, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

If someone posts Lev. 20:13 as their personal motto, that's an incitement to violence. To state Lev. 20:13 called for the death penalty for homosexuality is a fact that may be legitimate historical encyclopedic content. As Looie496 says, there are plenty of things in the encyclopedia that would be inappropriate for an editor to promote as their personal opinion, but have a contextual and encyclopedic place in an article.--Cube lurker (talk) 17:14, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

I dont know if you are reading my answers. I already clarified that I am talking about a possibly current context, rather than a historical one. Phoenix of9 22:47, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

Current religious teachings for the most part are based at least in part on historical teachings and/or traditions. If being used in the context of discussing certain religions objections to same sex marriage I would not consider it "an incitement to violence." As a content discussion it may not be appropriate for the article in question. It may be WP:OR or WP:SYNTH if there's no secondary sources connecting that verse to official doctrines. Possibly other issues. But that's a content question.--Cube lurker (talk) 23:11, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

If reliable sources indicate that Lev. 20:13 is in some people's opinion relevant to their views on same-sex marriage, then it would be perfectly acceptable to reference it in an article on same-sex marriage. Of course, one would have to consider what weight to give it, and if, on that basis, it merited mentioning - but at a guess I'd say that's quite possible. That some people are offended by those views in neither here nor there. Wikipedia doesn't concern itself with the question of whether article content might offend (see WP:NOTCENSORED). Indeed any editor wishing to exclude content merely on the grounds that it is "hateful" hasn't really understood the meaning of Wikipedia's neutrality. Wikipedia takes no position on whether gay-marriage is good, bad, sacred, or even merits the death penalty. My (or your) views on such matters are wholly irrelevant.--Scott Mac 23:12, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

• Might I ask how Leviticus is relevent to Same-sex marriage? That section that is quoted and is referenced by various religious groups, along with other sections in the Bible, all refer to homosexuals having sex. The sections are not about marriage. So how is including that really relevant to the topic of marriage between homosexuals? It seems to me that having it in the article is trying to push a bit of an agenda. Silverseren^C 23:34, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

If that's directed at me I'm not sure it is 100% relevant. However there's a difference between a content question on "does the verse belong" and declaring it an "incitement to violence" in multiple venues.--Cube lurker (talk) 23:40, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

Scott MacDonald, I see your point and that answers my question to Jimbo Wales. However, the final thing I'll say is, we have a higher sensitivity when it comes to Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons. I think it doesn't make sense that such standards aren't also applied to incitement to violence and you have to engage in prolonged debates to remove WP:OR. Phoenix of9 00:27, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

Whether it is OR or not is a normal content decision for the talk page, and nothing more. This gets decided as a content level and nothing more. You don't get to seek an advantage in deciding content by claiming something is "hateful" or "incites" this or that. This is exactly the same game that's been tried by Muslims wanting special treatment over images of the prophet and it was rejected then. BLPs are only different to the extent that we insist that things are verifiable and neutrally presented. Saying "Leviticus says x, and some people, in this basis have argued y" and giving reliable sources, can be perfectly factual and neutral. The fact that some people don't like it is their problem. Frankly, the way you've argued this, and the emotional way you've behaved, gives me concerns that you don't get the basic idea of what Wikipedia is. We deal in sourced facts. If the facts are unpleasant for some people - tough.--Scott Mac 02:42, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

Images of prophet is not a good analogy as those didn't suggest violence. And it is unlikely that you can gauge emotional reactions from written text accurately. Finally, while we deal with sourced facts, because of things like WP:UNDUE, it is not always an exact process. Phoenix of9 02:55, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

And since it isn't an exact process we have content discussions on the article talk page to reach consensus.--Cube lurker (talk) 03:41, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

Eh! I don't believe in same-sex marriage or just same-sex. IMHO, sex should be different each time. GoodDay (talk) 03:01, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

You must be single LOL The Eskimo (talk) 03:05, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

The ANI thread was closed.[4] It is not unreasonable to cite source material or to discuss the beliefs that people have; but I would be concerned that this seems like an issue best covered in an article about some anti-gay perspective and only covered in "WP:summary style" at the same-sex marriage article, which might mean not placing WP:Undue weight on any one quote. One can vigorously contest the idea that because an anti-gay statute is in the Old Testament, and Christianity is based on the Old Testament, hence Christianity condemns it. After all, the Old Testament similarly condemns wearing a garment made out of two different kinds of thread. Its rules are reported to be designed to make Abraham's seed as numerous as the dust of the earth, as opposed to, say, establishing peace on earth and good will toward men. Christianity includes an injunction to "keep the commandments", but the definition of the latter may be open to debate; in any case they don't include the great bulk of Israelite dietary laws. And then, you might cover Jewish, Muslim, and other non-Christian perspectives. Wnt (talk) 23:52, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

It is quite evident that when the Western liberalism of most Wikipedians comes into conflict with the stated project aim of neutrality, that neutrality loses. I stay well away from all such articles because there's not a hope in hell of neutralising the obvious agendas.--Scott Mac 00:00, 26 November 2010 (UTC)

I really appreciate the discussion on this feed. Just for context, the challenged article text at issue here currently reads as follows (it originally didn't have the footnotes, which was my fault):

Some religious arguments against same-sex marriage are based upon Old Testament biblical passages such as Genesis 19:4-11, Leviticus 18:22, and Leviticus 20:13, while others are based upon New Testament biblical passages such as Romans 1, I Corinthians 6:8-10, and Jude 1:7.

This sentence is in the religion subsection of the controversy section of an article on same-sex marriage. I must say that I am truly dismayed that another editor would write to the founder of Wikipedia and make accusations of violent hate speech on the basis of this sentence. 184.74.22.161 (talk) 09:20, 26 November 2010 (UTC)

You and Job

Jim, I'm certain you hear this on a regularly; you are a handsome man with expressive eyes. Very striking. Secondly, I will be in St. Pete. mid. to late Jan. 2011 looking for work and visiting friends. If you know anyone looking for assistant for office or/and home front I've worn many hats in my day and enjoy helping others. Any questions, any ideas for work would be appreciated. thank you, Kate Orcaskayaker (talk) Orcaskayaker (talk) 07:34, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

Jim. I love your eyes too, you're such a handsome guy. Why not give me a job plzz? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.27.12.88 (talk) 16:11, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

Personally, I think you look kind of creepy in those banners, but it seems to be working, so.... The Eskimo (talk) 03:02, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

"A swiss-german wikipedia doesn't exist"

Hi Jimbo

You made the quote above during this interview. Fortunately you're wrong, the alemannic Wikipedia (my home wiki) covers all swiss-german idioms. Unfortunately for us you didn't knew. But surely next time! ;-) --Umschattiger (talk) 15:52, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

Oh dear, and I pride myself on keeping track of such things. I apologize for the error!--Jimbo Wales (talk) 16:36, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

Kartika

Who is this "Kartika" person, and why is her "personal appeal" being featured? Kartika, while registered on both sites, has never made an edit (at least under that name) to either the English or Indonesian Wikipedias. [5] [6] Could you please clarify this for the readership? Is she actually a "Wikipedia author" at all? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.227.56.16 (talk) 18:48, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

I'm not the right person to ask - I haven't seen the banner.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 18:50, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

This is what I am talking about. 68.227.56.16 (talk) 18:58, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

She was at Wikimania; I don't know what her home wiki is.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 19:06, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

There is a bit of information about her at this blog post by GerardM. From her full name mentioned in that post, I discovered that she edits as 22Kartika in both the English and Indonesian Wikipedias. Graham87 03:00, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

HAPPY HOLIDAYS

HAPPY HOLIDAYS !
Wishing you and yours a very peaceful and joyous holiday season

Mlpearc

Mlpearc powwow 19:07, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

What's up with the Xmas-tree? And what's that dumb picture of white people feeding Indians? Actually, it was the other way around. Just saying. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 19:09, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

A request

• Can any developer watching this page kindly test out our donation banners for our mobile interfaces? They apparently aren't loading. Wifione _....... ^{Leave a message} 10:09, 26 November 2010 (UTC)